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Frontslider
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Date Posted:08/08/2008 11:12 PMCopy HTML

                                                                  Are you an Athiest?


Out of all the backsliders or ex members of the GR centre how many have become athiests?  I'm not far from it myself I still consider myself an agnostic now a days but one thing I do know is that I don't believe the bible anymore but that dosn't mean I'm an athiest.  I know a couple of backsliders who now consider themselves athiests and are at peace with it and live great constructive lives with no fear of death.

One thing I've worked out is that the God of the bible has nothing to do with the God of the universe or the energy force or the source or whatever you want to call it, that's if it really is there? The god of the bible is too judgemental and contradicts itself throughout the whole book.  First he says he's a compassionate loving god then in another breath he orders Israel to murder women, children and even cattle for his glory.  If the god of the bible is so loving and compassionate where was he when over 250,00 people, mostly innocent, were drowned in that horrible sunami a few years ago?  He could have stopped it but he didn't, great love and mercy that is?? 

So it leaves me with one conclusion that the god of the bible isn't what it says he is, therefore just a man made book and relevant to no body.  It does have some good principles in it but that's about it,  about the same amount of good principles that the koran has or the teachings of Budah. 

So would like to hear from the other athiests on here.

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Re:Atheists ask: Why is their evil in the world?

Date Posted:09/08/2008 8:29 AMCopy HTML

 My thoughts very closely mirrors yours Frontslider...

The contradictions within most religions and the fact most are willing to kill each other, in the name of 'god' is something I will never abide with.

I am probably an Agnostic... maybe something 'spiritual' is out there, but hardly believe its anything conventional (eg. Christian) - if there is anything there.

As is quoted in the God Delusion book - If we are so adamant there has to be something beyond this life... then why aren't we fretting we didn't exist in the time of Captain Cook, or the discovery of the Americas, or the Dark Ages, or the time of Jesus, or the time of the Pharoahs...or even the dawn of human civilisation?

We didnt exist then and it didn't see to bother us, yet we as animals think we have some pre-conceived right to live beyond this existence.


Deeeano. :-)
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Re:Atheists ask: Why is their evil in the world?

Date Posted:09/08/2008 11:30 AMCopy HTML

Reply to Frontslider

                                                                                                                                  Are you an Athiest?


Out of all the backsliders or ex members of the GR centre how many have become athiests?  I'm not far from it myself I still consider myself an agnostic now a days but one thing I do know is that I don't believe the bible anymore but that dosn't mean I'm an athiest.  I know a couple of backsliders who now consider themselves athiests and are at peace with it and live great constructive lives with no fear of death.

One thing I've worked out is that the God of the bible has nothing to do with the God of the universe or the energy force or the source or  whatever you want to call it, that's if it really is there?  The god of the bible is too judgemental and contradicts itself throughout the whole book.  First he says he's a compassionate loving god then in another breath  he orders Israel to murder women, children and even cattle for his glory.  If the god of the bible is so loving and compassionate where was he when over 250,00 people, mostly innocent, were drowned in that horrible sunami a few years ago?  He could have stopped it but he didn't, great love and mercy that is?? 

So it leaves me with one conclusion that the god of the bible isn't what it says he is, therefore just a man made book and relevant to no body.  It does have some good principles in it but that's about it,   about the same amount of good principles that the koran has or the teachings of Budah. 

So would like to hear from the other athiests on here.


Why is there evil and suffering in the world?
 

     The curious as well as the critics of Christianity ask this question. If God is all-powerful and all loving, then why does He permit evil and suffering in the world? Various answers have been given but permanently settling the issue is impossible because so many of our answers raise further questions. Nevertheless, our lack of ability to answer the question perfectly does not mean that we cannot offer solutions. Of course, I do not assume to be able to answer these questions definitively, but I can offer some solutions.
     First of all, it is possible that God has reasons for allowing evil to exist that we simply cannot understand. In this the Christian can have confidence in God knowing that His ways are above our ways (Isaiah 55:8-9). As the Bible says, the just shall live by faith (Hab. 2:4).
     Second, God may be letting evil run its course in order to prove that evil is evil and that suffering, which is the unfortunate product of evil, is further proof that anything contrary to God’s will is bad, harmful, painful, and leads to death.
     God gave Adam dominion over the world (Gen. 1:28). When he rebelled against God, he set in motion an entire series of events and changed the very nature of man and creation. Both were affected by sin. Creation was no longer a paradise, but bore thorns and thistles (Gen. 3:17-18; Rom. 8:22). People became sinful (Rom. 5:12; Eph. 2:3), who were haters of God (Rom. 3:19-12), etc. The only conclusion to such a situation is death. Jesus said, "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened" (Matt. 24:22).
     Sin is rebellion against God and His created order. But God has not left us alone in this fallen world. He continued to enter this world, pointing us to Himself, to truth, to morality, purity, and love. He used the evil of the world (liars, perjurers, the envious, etc), to bring His Son to the cross so that we might have the opportunity of eternal life. In this, God has not stepped away from fallen creation, but has stepped into it by becoming Jesus. God works within the fallen world to affect change and He uses fallen people to accomplish His will. In this, He is proving His sovereignty over evil, suffering, and rebellious people, proving that sin and evil are utterly futile, and that He is worthy of honor and glory.
     A third possible reason that God is letting evil occur is so that on the day of judgment, the condemned will have no right to say that their sentence is unjust. God is not stopping people from exercising their free will. Think about this: If someone said that God should stop evil and suffering, then should God then stop all evil and suffering? If God only stopped some of it, then we would still be asking the same question of why it exists. So, if we want God to stop evil and suffering, then He must stop all of it. We have no problem with this when it means stopping a catastrophe, or a murder, or a rape. But what about when someone thinks of something evil? Evil is evil whether it is acted out or not. Hatred and bigotry in someone’s heart is wrong. If it is wrong, and if God is to stop all evil, then He must stop that person from thinking his own thoughts. To do that, God must remove his freedom of thought. Furthermore, which person on the earth has not thought something evil? God would be required, then, to stop all people from exercising their free will. This is something God has chosen not to do. Therefore, we could say that one of the reasons that God permits evil and suffering is because of man’s free will.
     Fourth, it is quite possible that God uses the suffering to do good. In other words, He produces patience through tribulation (Rom. 5:3). Or He may desire to save someone through it. Take for example, the account of Joseph who was sold into slavery by His brothers. What they did was wrong and Joseph suffered greatly for it. But, later, God raised up Joseph in Egypt to make provisions for the people of that land during the coming drought of seven years. But not only was Egypt saved, but also so was his family and brothers who originally sold him into slavery. Joseph finally says to them, "You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good" (Gen. 50:15-21). Of course, the greatest example of God using evil for good is the death of Christ. Evil people brought him to the cross, but God used that cross as the means to save the world.
     But then we must ask, if this is true, are we working against God by working against evil and suffering? No, we are not. God says he does not want us to sin and suffer. But it is simply true that God can use evil despite of its apparent despicable nature.
     God is in the world using the world and its failures for His glory and the benefit of those who listen to Him.
     But then, what about those who seem to innocently suffer with no benefit resulting? What about the woman who is raped, or the innocent by stander who is killed by a stray bullet. In both cases, the victims and families suffer nothing but pain and loss. What good can this possibly be?
     I think that the answer is two-fold. One, ultimately, no one is innocent. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Rom. 3:23) and are by nature children of wrath (Eph. 2:3). There is none innocent. Though this is biblically accurate, it does not satisfy the question emotionally. Why do little babies suffer for things they have not done? I must acknowledge that I do not know. Ultimately, we must trust God who knows the beginning from the end and sees the grand picture. He will have the final word and He will be vindicated.

     Conclusion

     Suffering is the result of human sin. The world is not the way that God created it and because of that, all are vulnerable to the affects of sin in the world. Why does one person suffer and another does not? Why do catastrophes happen to some and no others? It is because sin is in the world. But there will come a day when the Lord will return and cleanse this world of all sin and all suffering.

"And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away" (Rev. 21:4).


 

pyright Matthew J. Slick, 1995 - 2008



"Try not to burn the toast"
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Re:Atheists ask: Why is their evil in the world?

Date Posted:09/08/2008 11:44 AMCopy HTML

Cruel Twist

What's with the twist? What was cruel about it?

What church do you go to?

What do you believe man? Anyone can dump a cut and paste from any old Christian apologetic website. Did you even read it first, or did google hit on an acceptable answer to the big questions that atheism asks?

By the looks of the following text you stole it seems as if the writer thinks we're too stupid as a species to grasp this important topic anyway and should just STFU and let the theists say what's what:

First of all, it is possible that God has reasons for allowing evil to exist that we simply cannot understand. In this the Christian can have confidence in God knowing that His ways are above our ways (Isaiah 55:8-9). As the Bible says, the just shall live by faith (Hab. 2:4).

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Re:Atheists ask: Why is their evil in the world?

Date Posted:09/08/2008 4:26 PMCopy HTML

Cruel Twist,

With regards to your posting  I have to say that it is what I would have expected from a christian.  Just another convenient answer to justify gods lack of compassion.  I agree that a lot of the evil that occurs is human society is man made, wars, rapes, murder, thefts and the list goes on.  But how about all the natural disasters that are not in mans control, earth quakes, floods, tsunamis, droughts, tornadoes and so on.  There should be no reason why the loving caring compassionate god of the bible couldn't intervene in these cases, it would certainly make it a lot easier to believe in him if he was known to do that.  The bible writers were smart when they wrote that his ways are higher than our ways. They had to write that because how else could they make sense of the suffering that was occuring in the world.  Instead of just accepting that we live in an imperfect world fraught with dangers  they had to come up with a bigger picture excuse.  Just like Noel when his wife died, instead of just admitting that the healing power of god didn't work he came up with the lame excuse that she was taken so he could be free to do the lords work.  That's what religion does makes claims of his power then spends the rest of it's time justifying why his power doesn't work

As for free will that's another one of those convenient answers that religion had to come up with and the bible is full of it.
Evil exists so that we can exercise our free will. What a load of crap.  No one is debating that humans have the power of choice but that doesn't prove the existance of a god, especially the god of the bible.  Free will won't stop a drought or an earth quake that would take the hand of god.   

So cruel twist your posting does nothing but show me how much christianity is off the mark and religion in general. Sin and its concequences is just a man made thought used to explain what can't be explained.  Man is barbaric in nature because that's how he's evolved over the centuries as a species.  Just like all the other animals of the earth, they are as they've evolved. Mans nature didn't come from someone eating an apple that god told them not to eat.  It's just as a bizarre a story as the dream time of the aboriginals.

So there you go, To be an athiest or not to be that is the question?

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Re:Atheists ask: Why is their evil in the world?

Date Posted:10/08/2008 2:41 AMCopy HTML

(The following references to god are hypothetical because I have not any evidence such a being exists - Moth)


Last week in Canada a man sharing a bus with others calmly left his seat and took out a knife to repeatedly stab and decapitate a young random person minding his own business. He taunted police and traumatised onlookers by playing with the decapitated head. It was horrifying beyond words and sure to be a source of nightmares for all those who witnessed the terror. Children were scarred for life with the gruesome scene and tragically learnt the truth that some people are truly monsters and this is the world they live in.


Clearly the murderer was insane, but has since admitted to the court that he knew what he was doing and knew it was wrong. Murder and rape and other monstrous things are done daily and I'm reminded by various school massacres and the 'ethnic' cleansings, ala Rwanda, that incredible pain and suffering is manifest in our society and always has been. Forget a future supernatural hell in the afterlife... people live in hell now.

When these things happen I try to imagine an omnipresent god shielding his eyes and cringing at the amount of cracked eggs that seem to have to happen in order to make his omelette. He 'could' intervene and stop the incredible suffering. Afterall, he does seem to find time to intervene and heal people from various colds and cancers now and then. Christians always make a big deal about the time when his son was tortured for an afternoon and then killed... luckily for him he was revived in a matter of days. The parents of the decapitated boy on the bus don't have that luxury and apparently will even have the Cult Fundamentalis Westbro Christians picketing at the funeral to tell Canada that the horror was god's devine judgement on their unrighteous government.


There are bible verses in Isaiah etc that hint that god created 'evil' or that is possibly interpreted as calamity. I don't know. He is certainly credited with creating everything and obviously knew what his creation would do. He created people knowing they would decapitate and rape each other. Apparently there is some punishment coming for the phsychopaths and reconciliation or restoration coming, but the price just seems too high. Aside from poor Jesus' whipping and crucifixion we have far too many children sodomised and molested by their own family members. It's just too common. For many people, being raped by daddy is as common as a family picnic. It's freaking gastly and mostly hidden, and it makes me angry when Christians say that this sort of suffering is necessary for the glory of what god has in store.


The blood is on god's hands, and what he has had in store for us so far has been heinous. In the old testament he had whole armies invade other territories and allowed to murder everyone in the family, and even allowed to take women agains their wishes. Imagine the horror of being invaded and having your family and cattle torn apart by Israel. God sent his spirit into Egypt to slay all the first born. Nice. There are many stories of the war loving god of the Old testament. That various 'sins' had to be atoned via the cutting up and burning of animals just seems so... messed up to begin with.


It's his universe and he can run it anyway he pleases. I would have rathered he'd have come up with a better plan to enable him to have people to play with, rather than the current one where countless millions have endured gross suffering and torturous grief for so long. I'll tip my hat to him in thanks for the fun I've had so far and hope that next week my own son isn't decapitated and used as a bloody puppet on a bus. If I'm really lucky maybe I won't spend eternity writhing in a hell he has designed to punish me forever for not believing in what I figure to be very much unbelievable as determined by the brain that he designed for me to think with in the first place.

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Re:Atheists ask: Why is their evil in the world?

Date Posted:10/08/2008 3:09 AMCopy HTML

Good morning, Frontlisder.

Out of all the backsliders or ex members of the GR centre how many have become athiests? I'm not far from it myself I still consider myself an agnostic now a days but one thing I do know is that I don't believe the bible anymore but that dosn't mean I'm an athiest.

You're absolutely correct, it doesn't. All that your lack of belief in the Bible infers is that you've jettisoned the normative, objective Christian measure of spiritual truth for a strictly subjective measure: yourself. Consequently, all that we're left with is personal opinion, for what that's worth!

I know a couple of backsliders who now consider themselves athiests and are at peace with it and live great constructive lives with no fear of death.

Sure, but who says "fear of death" is an objective criteria against which to judge spiritual reality? I'm betting the "atheists" that you know might even be able to spell the word correctly too, huh?

One thing I've worked out is that the God of the bible has nothing to do with the God of the universe or the energy force or the source or whatever you want to call it, that's if it really is there?

Really? Given that you don't seem particularly certain of whether God exists or not, how is it that you can so dogmatically state that the God of Scripture is not the same as the God of the universe? Your own statement, above, is logically inconsistent and, therefore, self-defeating.

The god of the bible is too judgemental and contradicts itself throughout the whole book.


Is that so? Based on "what", exactly?

First he says he's a compassionate loving god then in another breath he orders Israel to murder women, children and even cattle for his glory. If the god of the bible is so loving and compassionate where was he when over 250,00 people, mostly innocent, were drowned in that horrible sunami a few years ago? He could have stopped it but he didn't, great love and mercy that is??

Yours is a fairly typical charge, but nonetheless it remains a charge that's based neither on logical reasoning or theological premise. It's little more than an emotionally and presuppositonally-laden rant, actually. FWIW, I'd recommend that you gain a little learning in philosophy and propositional logic, or if you can't be bothered to do that, then you might try reading a good book or two that addresses the issue of theodicy from a theologically and philosophically-informed manner.

So it leaves me with one conclusion that the god of the bible isn't what it says he is, therefore just a man made book and relevant to no body.

Right. So tell me, "Frontslider", do you reach all of your conclusions about important stuff as you have on this subject? By quite sloppy and poorly though-through (nevermind "irrational") propositions?

It does have some good principles in it but that's about it, about the same amount of good principles that the koran has or the teachings of Budah.

Well, given what I've read from you to date, I'd wager that you know as little about Islam and the Quran, and the teachings of the Buddha, as you do about the Bible and Christian theology. Consequently, your summary of the worth of Scripture doesn't inspire me with confidence in your credibility to be giving such opinions.

So would like to hear from the other athiests on here.

Well, speaking for myself, I'd much rather listen to some philosophically-informed atheists; people who can propose logically consistent and defensible arguments for their beliefs (or lack thereof).

Blessings,

Ian
email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:Atheists ask: Why is their evil in the world?

Date Posted:10/08/2008 11:34 AMCopy HTML

I suggest we pass the hat around and raise some cash fo poor old Ian. Maybe we can buy him a life?  Honestly Ian, a bloke comes on here, maybe a vulnerable and mentally scarred bloke and you pompously ridicule him.

It aint the first time either.

Whats with you sitting in the comfortable realm of your past life and posting you narcissistic views?

Blessings Ian- what some twat.

Your poor old fool... Go and join another group and bother them.

Blessings

On behalf of all visitors of the forum
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Re:Atheists ask: Why is their evil in the world?

Date Posted:10/08/2008 11:38 AMCopy HTML

I will put money in the hat, thats for sure!!!!!



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Re:Atheists ask: Why is their evil in the world?

Date Posted:10/08/2008 12:05 PMCopy HTML

OMG! What twits. That's twit for twat. You call a reasoned reply ridiculing? I don't think the original poster came across that vulnerably, apart from perhaps a simplistic debunking of bible logic. But that's ok. Question the bible, question Ian, question everything and don't stop, otherwise you'll be stuck in the same stupid rut all your life.

Ian asked me if he should post in here before he did. I encouraged him to because I'd like to see his replies to what I believe are extremely interesting subjects that dig deep into what really drives cults and christianity to believe what it does. I know the original poster asked for other atheists to join the conversation but that's not very interesting at all. There's millions of blogs that will do that packpatting.

If you're looking for ex-GRC atheists in particular, then pffftt... just ignore anyone who doesn't enter with the secret handshake and carry on. I would love to hear from other atheists and agnostics myself, and I don't want silence from Ian on the subject, but maybe some elbow room, which I'm sure he'll be happy to give.
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Re:Atheists ask: Why is their evil in the world?

Date Posted:11/08/2008 12:45 AMCopy HTML

To, Guest and guest.

I suggest we pass the hat around and raise some cash fo poor old Ian. Maybe we can buy him a life?  Honestly Ian, a bloke comes on here, maybe a vulnerable and mentally scarred bloke and you pompously ridicule him.

Nah. To begin with, I've more than enough pesos to meet my daily needs. But I would suggest that you fellows stop sharing (what is apparently) the same brain cell. Try thinking instead of ranting, postulating instead of emoting. This is an OPEN forum. When one presents a position statement here, it's best to expect engagement from those who may disagree. And our friend sought engagement, didn't he?     

It aint the first time either.

Yeah, you're right. I should probably take your advice and start affirming the right of people to say stupid things, huh?
smiley12

Whats with you sitting in the comfortable realm of your past life and posting you narcissistic views?

For starters, they're not "narcissitic", they're simply "informed opinions" (informed of the facts, that is). Now the fact is that any twit can post sheer nonsense here, and many do
Surprised But given that I'm a part of this "establishment", my preference would be to engage with thinking people who believe differently to me. Sadly; however, they're much, much harder to find!

Your poor old fool... Go and join another group and bother them.

"Your poor old fool"? Hmmm. I don't own any such fool. My fools are neither poor nor old!

On behalf of all visitors of the forum...
Okay. So you're the voice of all the visitors to this place, huh? Pity. Such representation doesn't bode particularly well for the visitor, does it?
Foot in mouth

Ian
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Re:Atheists ask: Why is their evil in the world?

Date Posted:11/08/2008 2:40 AMCopy HTML

"Guest"

Really now, Ian's reply to "Frontslider" was reasonable and "Guest's" waspish response was unwarranted and looked like a pitiful little bit of revenge for a presumed slight.   Incredibly, "Guest" to speak on behalf of all visitors to the forum is rather presumptuous.

A bit of good reading, as Ian suggested, would help you "both".    If you don't like what he recommended, a good start and interesting reading might be some of the writings of people who were atheist or agnostic;  one being the British journalist and author Malcolm Muggeridge who had plenty to say when he was atheist (or perhaps more a confirmed agnostic) and even more to say when he converted to Christianity.  Also, there was a turning point to active Christianity in the life of C.S. Lewis.  G.K. Chesterton was a Christian author, but one who debated strongly with atheists like George Bernard Shaw and long time agnostic Oscar Wilde who later wrote the beautiful children's story of "The Selfish Giant", "The Happy Prince" etc.    Confessions of St. Augustine is also good reading.  These are just a few; there is so much good reading to inspire and broaden the outlook.  

To quote Malcolm Muggeridge :-   "There is no such thing as darkness; only a failure to see"

God Bless

Epi

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Re:Atheists ask: Why is their evil in the world?

Date Posted:12/08/2008 10:47 PMCopy HTML

Reply to Didaktikon

Good morning, Frontlisder.

Out of all the backsliders or ex members of the GR centre how many have become athiests? I'm not far from it myself I still consider myself an agnostic now a days but one thing I do know is that I don't believe the bible anymore but that dosn't mean I'm an athiest.

You're absolutely correct, it doesn't. All that your lack of belief in the Bible infers is that you've jettisoned the normative, objective Christian measure of spiritual truth for a strictly subjective measure: yourself. Consequently, all that we're left with is personal opinion, for what that's worth!

I know a couple of backsliders who now consider themselves athiests and are at peace with it and live great constructive lives with no fear of death.

Sure, but who says "fear of death" is an objective criteria against which to judge spiritual reality? I'm betting the "atheists" that you know might even be able to spell the word correctly too, huh?

One thing I've worked out is that the God of the bible has nothing to do with the God of the universe or the energy force or the source or whatever you want to call it, that's if it really is there?

Really? Given that you don't seem particularly certain of whether God exists or not, how is it that you can so dogmatically state that the God of Scripture is not the same as the God of the universe? Your own statement, above, is logically inconsistent and, therefore, self-defeating.

The god of the bible is too judgemental and contradicts itself throughout the whole book.


Is that so? Based on "what", exactly?

First he says he's a compassionate loving god then in another breath he orders Israel to murder women, children and even cattle for his glory. If the god of the bible is so loving and compassionate where was he when over 250,00 people, mostly innocent, were drowned in that horrible sunami a few years ago? He could have stopped it but he didn't, great love and mercy that is??

Yours is a fairly typical charge, but nonetheless it remains a charge that's based neither on logical reasoning or theological premise. It's little more than an emotionally and presuppositonally-laden rant, actually. FWIW, I'd recommend that you gain a little learning in philosophy and propositional logic, or if you can't be bothered to do that, then you might try reading a good book or two that addresses the issue of theodicy from a theologically and philosophically-informed manner.

So it leaves me with one conclusion that the god of the bible isn't what it says he is, therefore just a man made book and relevant to no body.

Right. So tell me, "Frontslider", do you reach all of your conclusions about important stuff as you have on this subject? By quite sloppy and poorly though-through (nevermind "irrational") propositions?

It does have some good principles in it but that's about it, about the same amount of good principles that the koran has or the teachings of Budah.

Well, given what I've read from you to date, I'd wager that you know as little about Islam and the Quran, and the teachings of the Buddha, as you do about the Bible and Christian theology. Consequently, your summary of the worth of Scripture doesn't inspire me with confidence in your credibility to be giving such opinions.

So would like to hear from the other athiests on here.

Well, speaking for myself, I'd much rather listen to some philosophically-informed atheists; people who can propose logically consistent and defensible arguments for their beliefs (or lack thereof).

Blessings,

Ian


Goodmorning DidaktiKon,

 

Thanks for your responce I take on board what you wrote but after 20 years in the Geelong Revival Centre and reading the bible over and over I feel I have the right to make a comment about atheism and agnosticism.  I don't know much about you though.  Are you from the Geelong Revival Centre?  If not what church do you go to?  This will help me get an insite as to where you're coming from.  Since you're a christian it doesn't surprise me that you wrote what you wrote.  Nothing you wrote changes my mind about the bible and how false and out of date it is.  I wouldn't mind reading books about other born again christians who have become atheists.

You wrote that I don't use logical reason to come to my conclusions.  What logical reasoning do christians use to come up with theirs?  Is it logical to believe that a woman became pregnant by the power of god?  Is it logical to believe that a man rose from the dead even though there's no evidence of his resurrection? He's as dead today as he was 2000 years ago. Is there any logic in beleiveing that the earth flooded and all the animals of the earth were saved on a boat?  Is there any logic in beleiving that adam and eve were the first man and woman when science tells us differently? Is there any logic in believing that the earth was made in 7 days when science tells us differently? 

You talk about logic, it may be time for you to use some logic when you refer to the bible?

 

Cheers.

 

 

 


 

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Re:Atheists ask: Why is their evil in the world?

Date Posted:12/08/2008 11:27 PMCopy HTML

Good morning again, Frontslider.

Thanks for your responce I take on board what you wrote but after 20 years in the Geelong Revival Centre and reading the bible over and over I feel I have the right to make a comment about atheism and
agnosticism.

Why? Would 20 years spent cultivating pumpkins make you a pumpkin? Do you believe yourself adequately informed enough concerning the issues to have that "right"? FWIW, I don't. Can you actually present a logical defence for the philosophical position that is atheism to begin with? FWIW, I think not. Or is "atheism" simply another "word" like Islam to you: something rather hazy and undefined?

I don't know much about you though. Are you from the Geelong Revival Centre?  If not what church do you go to?  This will help me get an insite as to where you're coming from.

'Nope', I'm a former member of the RCI and current conservative Christian. But I've spent a considerable period of time studying the Revivalist belief system, its doctrines and their histories. I've also considerable experience of helping people to leave Revivalism where it belongs, in that part of their pasts under the heading: "really bad mistakes".

Since you're a christian it doesn't surprise me that you wrote  what you wrote.

Yes, and since I'm a Christian who can also reason intelligently it shouldn't surprise you that I wrote what I wrote either smiley9

Nothing you wrote changes my mind about the bible and how false and out of date it is.

No doubt. But then again your mind didn't strike me as being particularly open to the possibility of being in error to begin with.

I wouldn't mind reading books about other born again christians who have become atheists.

Sure. But to balance the equation, you should probably also read books about atheists who became Christians. Just a thought.

You wrote that I don't use logical reason to come to my conclusions.

I did indeed.

What logical reasoning do christians use to come up with theirs?  Is it logical to believe that a woman became pregnant by the power of god?

And why not? Is your  belief system constrained to the simply the concept of the principle of analogy?

Is it logical to believe that a man rose from the dead even though there's no evidence of his resurrection?

I think you'd make as terrible an historian as you do an apologist for atheism.

He's as dead today as he was 2000 years ago. Is  there any logic in beleiveing that the earth flooded and all the animals of the earth were saved on a boat?  Is there any logic in beleiving that adam and eve were the first man and woman when science tells us differently?

First, if Jesus Christ is as dead as you've claimed, then would please show me his body
Second, I must ask you this: is science your religion, and are scientists your new priests? If so, by what right?

Is there any logic in believing that the earth was made in 7 days when science tells us differently?

See above. 

You talk about logic, it may be time for you to use some logic when you refer to the bible?

I'm thinking that you don't properly understand what is inferred by the word "logic".

Bloke, if that's the best that you can come up with, then I'd recommend you sit down, "crack" a "coldie" and switch on the TV. It'd be a better use of our time  smiley12

Cheerio,

Ian

P.S. Mod, the recent format "glitches" are starting to become a bit tedious. Can they be corrected?

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Re:Atheists ask: Why is their evil in the world?

Date Posted:13/08/2008 7:09 AMCopy HTML

Hi Frontslider,

Not sure of any books, but there are many online testimonials of christians becoming non believers. Follow the links below.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/testimonials/
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/decon.html

Take a look at this as well!
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/

Big girl
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Re:Atheists ask: Why is their evil in the world?

Date Posted:13/08/2008 8:57 AMCopy HTML

Reply to Urchin

"As I said to moth the other day - 'birthing' anything is painful but so worth it in the end. We were talking about suffering"

A quote I had sent to me this week - "There's tons of evil in the world that has nothing to do with free will, i.e. natural disasters. Plus, why should free choice of a few have such a strong impact on billions?"

Yep, childbirth is painful because stress and change is happening to the body and the pain resides a great deal after the birth. This isn't so when thousands of people die in say, a tsunami, and families are left torn and destitute. The families of decapitated bus goer's don't have any pay-off for their misery. Parents who have their children abducted don't get any reward for their horrible suffering.

So worth it in the end... pfftt... so that you and your beautiful saviour can dance together we have pain and suffering to a degree that you 'write off' with contemptuous disregard. Need I update this thread with the pointless misery that happens to people every minute... every day? So worth it. Sigh. Maybe in a universalist arena of ultimate restoration... maybe.
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Re:Atheists ask: Why is their evil in the world?

Date Posted:13/08/2008 9:00 AMCopy HTML



Hi Frontslider

You might be interested in reading books by John Shelby Spong. They are available in libraries. He has some great arguments against literal interpretations of the bible - a great read is "Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism". It really opens your mind to other possibilities. You don't have to choose between Christianity and Atheism - there are other choices available.

This is my first time on this site. I am amazed by the attitude of the christians posting here.

Oh and Ian you made a spelling mistake.

Life drawer

 

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Re:Atheists ask: Why is their evil in the world?

Date Posted:13/08/2008 10:42 AMCopy HTML

I am amazed by the attitude of the christians posting here.

Is that because some of us emulate Paul of Tarsus rather than Mulcahy of MASH?
The evidence for Mann-made global warming is unequivocal.
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Re:Atheists ask: Why is their evil in the world?

Date Posted:13/08/2008 9:37 PMCopy HTML

Good morning to you, Life Drawer.

You might be interested in reading books by John Shelby Spong. They are available in libraries.

They are indeed: you should be able to find them in the fiction section

He has some great arguments against literal interpretations of the bible - a great read is "Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism". It really opens your mind to other possibilities.

Really? Well, clearly we differ on what constitutes a "great idea". Unfortunately, a sympathetic person having any idea of the history and theology of Christianity will likely reach contrary positions to the ones that Spong suggests. After all, he may be many things, but biblical scholar ain't one of them.

You don't have to choose between Christianity and Atheism - there are other choices available.

Yes, there are: Islam, paganism, Buddhism, Taoism, Santa Clausism, kai ta loipa (that's how you spell et cetera in Greek, BTW). However, when it comes to Christianity, then one must choose between the faith and practice as portrayed by Christ and Paul, or an altogether different religion. You see, one can't simply "reimagine" Christianity after the fashion of Spong, so as to re-create it in one's own image. There is adequate "wiggle room" to accommodate a fairly broad diversity of opinions across a rather wide range of subjects, but there yet remains an inviolate core of orthodox beliefs. Spong chose to tinker with the latter rather than the former.

This is my first time on this site. I am amazed by the attitude of the christians posting here.

Then welcome. But what were you expecting from the Christian's posting here? Weak and insipid, nonsensical "engagement"? Doing so would place the Christians on the same level as the wanna-be atheists, and where would be the fun in that?! smiley33

Oh and Ian you made a spelling mistake.

Meh, it happens. Good thing I don't make logical and theological mistakes though, huh? smiley9

Blessings,

Ian

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Re:Atheists ask: Why is their evil in the world?

Date Posted:13/08/2008 9:46 PMCopy HTML

Hi, Guest.

Are you serious?

Well, I ain't "Yahoo Serious" (most Australians over the age of 30 will probably "twig" to this one) smiley26

This is meant to help someone? This is meant to bless someone?

Define, "help"? As for "blessing" someone, 'nope', such wasn't my intention

I don't think so.

Then why even ask?

You made a spelling mistake.

Whoops! smiley36

Blessings,

Ian
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Re:Atheists ask: Why is their evil in the world?

Date Posted:13/08/2008 10:01 PMCopy HTML

Good morning, Pete (I'm assuming this is you given the tenor and style of the thing).

A quote I had sent to me this week - "There's tons of evil in the world that has nothing to do with free will, i.e. natural disasters. Plus, why should free choice of a few have such a strong impact on billions?"

There is indeed, and it's an important distinction to make: between moral evil and natural evil, that is.

Yep, childbirth is painful because stress and change is happening to the body and the pain resides a great deal after the birth. This isn't so when thousands of people die in say, a tsunami, and families are left torn and destitute. The families of decapitated bus goer's don't have any pay-off for their misery. Parents who have their children abducted don't get any reward for their horrible suffering.

You're right, they don't. But who would seek to diminish the suffering that they experience?

So worth it in the end... pfftt... so that you and your beautiful saviour can dance together we have pain and suffering to a degree that you 'write off' with contemptuous disregard. Need I update this thread with the pointless misery that happens to people every minute... every day? So worth it. Sigh. Maybe in a universalist arena of ultimate restoration... maybe.

Or maybe an adequate (read, "proper") understanding of Christian theology on the subject is the solution?

Blessings,

Ian
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Re:Atheists ask: Why is their evil in the world?

Date Posted:28/11/2009 5:38 AMCopy HTML

Reply to Didaktikon

All that your lack of belief in the Bible infers is that you've jettisoned the normative, objective Christian measure of spiritual truth for a strictly subjective measure: yourself. Consequently, all that we're left with is personal opinion, for what that's worth!

Tee hee.

You're playing silly buggers with us here right?

The Bible is an objective measure of spiritual truth?  Surely you see the obvious flaw in that assumption right?

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Re:Atheists ask: Why is their evil in the world?

Date Posted:28/11/2009 7:28 AMCopy HTML

Hello, Troy.

Are you sure that you want to play this game with me? Again?

Blessings,

Ian

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Re:Atheists ask: Why is their evil in the world?

Date Posted:28/11/2009 7:37 AMCopy HTML

Hello Newman...  :)

Even if we assume divine inspiration (which I don't...but let's just 'assume'), one cannot say the Bible is an 'objective measure' of anything seeing as one must bring the imperfection of humainty to the task of interpretation.  I object to the term 'objective'.  I wouldn't argue with you saying it is 'a normative Christian measure' though...along with tradtion, Theological debate and a host of other 'normative Christian measures'.

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Re:Atheists ask: Why is their evil in the world?

Date Posted:28/11/2009 7:42 AMCopy HTML

And how are you Ian? 

It's been a long time no? 

Care to update me on your movements and developments of the last few years?

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Re:Atheists ask: Why is their evil in the world?

Date Posted:28/11/2009 7:47 AMCopy HTML

Hi, Troy.

Even if we assume divine inspiration (which I don't...but let's just 'assume'), one cannot say the Bible is an 'objective measure' of anything seeing as one must bring the imperfection of humainty to the task of interpretation.

Really? You don't assume "divine inspiration"? Well that has to be one of the hottest "newsflashes" of the decade! But to address the thrust of your point I would state: "wrong". The term "objective" is defined as, "existing outside of the thinking subject". "Subjective", on the other hand, relates to "existing inside the thinking subject". So to state that the Bible is an "objective measure" of reality (or anything else for that matter) is a perfectly correct, and thoroughly logical proposition. Your quip, with respect to the task of interpretation, is simply to point out an obvious fact of life concerning hermeneutics: that "objective truth/reality" must be mediated subjectively in order to be meaningful.

I object to the term 'objective'.  I wouldn't argue with you saying it is 'a normative Christian measure' though.

I object to the term "pumpkin", but so what?. Anyway, how have you been these past few years?

Blessings,

Ian


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Re:Atheists ask: Why is their evil in the world?

Date Posted:28/11/2009 7:52 AMCopy HTML

Troy,

Me and mine are well. I've continued with my studies in theology and Revivalism, the two colliding in my (in progress) Doctoral dissertation: "Saved from grace: the soteriology of the Revival Centres and Associated Fellowships". I've been overseas a couple of times since we last caught up, but I'm getting to the age where playing "soldier" after the old "Boy's Own Adventures" is wearing a trifling thin. In the next handful of years I imagine I'll become a full-time academic, probably spending some years teaching theology in a Third World context.

Blessings,

Ian

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Re:Atheists ask: Why is their evil in the world?

Date Posted:28/11/2009 8:15 AMCopy HTML

Reply to Didaktikon

I'm well.  Still in China.  I'm still teaching but closed up my business (kinda...long story) and now work for an American school here.  I also completed my Master of Journalism (UQ) and began a Grad Dip Ed (QUT) which I will finish next semester.  After that I intend to begin an MEd (probably UQ as well) so I can take an admin role in an International School here in Asia.  I now have 2 kids, both who look more like their Chinese mother than me.  Life is good here and I shouldn't complain, although I often do.  :)

Did you see Bart Ehrman released another book?  Jesus, Interrupted.  It a nice pop companion to his earlier one that we debated on here somewhere.  I'll leave you to track it down and read it.  He's a good author. The damned say the damnedest things...but nothing new for those of us who long ago joined the ranks of the damned.  ;)

Other than that, it's all the same.  I don't spen too much time contemplating religion now.  I dunno, I guess I am past it now.  For me, that's a good thing.  I realise others won't see it that way of course...but to each his own.






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Re:Atheists ask: Why is their evil in the world?

Date Posted:28/11/2009 8:24 AMCopy HTML

Small mercies that your kids look like their mum, eh!

Teaching, once it gets into your blood, becomes pervasive, doesn't it? I've been teaching/tutoring theology at university level part-time for almost nine years now, and the passion hasn't waned a bit. Hence my choice of next career.

Of course I've read Ehrman's book (I have just about everything that he's published), and I found his approach (and conclusions) about as convincing this time around as I did those of his other works! Anyway, I'm sure that if you 'Googled' for 10 minutes, that you'd be able to locate a score or more of published reviews which, yet again, would take Ehrman to task for "overstatement". And then by recognised New Testament scholars. The thing about Dr Ehrman's work is that he presents as being thoroughly convincing in what he states, to all but those who actually know a thing or two about textual criticism and New Testament studies more generally


Blessings,

Ian


P.S. Troy, I took a few minutes to 'Google' myself, and have copied here URL's to several scholarly reviews of Ehrman's, "Jesus, Interrupted". Enjoy.

The first comprises a five-part (plus coda) review by noted American NT scholar, Professor Ben Witherington III.

1. http://benwitherington.blogspot.com/2009/04/bart-interrupted-detailed-analysis-of.html
2. http://benwitherington.blogspot.com/2009/04/bart-interrupted-detailed-analysis-of_08.html
3. http://benwitherington.blogspot.com/2009/04/bart-interrupted-detailed-analysis-of_13.html
4. http://benwitherington.blogspot.com/2009/04/bart-interrupted-part-four.html
5. http://benwitherington.blogspot.com/2009/04/bart-interrupted-detailed-analysis-of_16.html
6. http://benwitherington.blogspot.com/2009/04/bart-interrupted-detailed-analysis-of_20.html

The next review, for the theological journal "Themelios", is by Professor Daryl Bock.

7. http://www.thegospelcoalition.org/publications/34-3/book-reviews/jesus-interrupted-revealing-the-hidden-contradictions-in-the-bible-and-why-we-dont-know-about-them

And finally, a review by Professor Michael Kruger, first published in the "Westminster Theological Journal".

8. http://www.reformation21.org/shelf-life/jesus-interrupted.php

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Re:Atheists ask: Why is their evil in the world?

Date Posted:08/12/2009 7:07 AMCopy HTML

Reply to Frontslider

                                                                  Are you an Athiest?


Out of all the backsliders or ex members of the GR centre how many have become athiests?  I'm not far from it myself I still consider myself an agnostic now a days but one thing I do know is that I don't believe the bible anymore but that dosn't mean I'm an athiest.  I know a couple of backsliders who now consider themselves athiests and are at peace with it and live great constructive lives with no fear of death.

One thing I've worked out is that the God of the bible has nothing to do with the God of the universe or the energy force or the source or whatever you want to call it, that's if it really is there? The god of the bible is too judgemental and contradicts itself throughout the whole book.  First he says he's a compassionate loving god then in another breath he orders Israel to murder women, children and even cattle for his glory.  If the god of the bible is so loving and compassionate where was he when over 250,00 people, mostly innocent, were drowned in that horrible sunami a few years ago?  He could have stopped it but he didn't, great love and mercy that is?? 

So it leaves me with one conclusion that the god of the bible isn't what it says he is, therefore just a man made book and relevant to no body.  It does have some good principles in it but that's about it,  about the same amount of good principles that the koran has or the teachings of Budah. 

So would like to hear from the other athiests on here.



Hi all

I have asked myself all these questions and have concluded, if there is a god he is behind the mirror. What we believe about god is a reflection of ourselves our own fears and hopes. All cutures do this that's why 'god' takes so many forms and yet has no form. I'm not saying ther is no god, just that maybe he lets us believe whatever we want as part of who we are........ I hope this helps x




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Re:Atheists ask: Why is their evil in the world?

Date Posted:08/12/2009 9:21 PMCopy HTML

Good morning, "Fearless".

I have asked myself all these questions and have concluded, if there is a god he is behind the mirror. What we believe about god is a reflection of ourselves our own fears and hopes. All cutures do this that's why 'god' takes so many forms and yet has no form. I'm not saying ther is no god, just that maybe he lets us believe whatever we want as part of who we are........ I hope this helps.

Not particularly. All you've done is subjectively posit the possible existence of a god. Judaism and Christianity, however, posits the existence the the God. Ergo I'd rather see your reasoning for denying the latter statement; the former tells me nothing.

Blessings,

Ian
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Re:Atheists ask: Why is their evil in the world?

Date Posted:09/12/2009 2:37 AMCopy HTML

Thanks Ian ,

But i woudln't presume to tell you anything as you obviously possess all the answers, my comment was in answer to frontslider

Cheers,

Fearlessfly
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Re:Atheists ask: Why is their evil in the world?

Date Posted:09/12/2009 3:21 AMCopy HTML

Hi, "Fearless",

"You're welcome", and "I do" But given that "Frontslider" hasn't engaged in this conversation in well over a year, I doubt that he would care too much.

Blessings,

Ian

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Re:Atheists ask: Why is their evil in the world?

Date Posted:01/02/2010 8:41 PMCopy HTML

well i just think you all need to learn how to spell... or type.
RCI prophesies
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