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Date Posted:30/11/2005 11:37 PMCopy HTML

I thought I would start a new thread so as not to sidetrack the Women Preachers thread.Reply to : HolyandSinful"But the thing is, different authors have different points of view and even different beliefs" - Isn't that part of the beauty of it? That different personalities are highlighted in the books. There's a pool of thought that the 4 gospels represent four different, yet mostly harmonious, and interconnected perspectives on the gospel based on the 4 living creatures in Rev 4:7-Matthew (writes with ahumanview - Jesus as the perfect man and second Adam)Mark - Lion (The royal sovreign Jesus)Luke - ox (Jesus as the humble servant)John -eagle (Jesus the spiritual man from heaven)I read that book too. Actually, it was the book,4 Gospels, 1 Jesusthat actually began to undermine my turst in the reliability of the Bible and gospel narratives and it was a pro-faith book. I applaud the author though as he attempted to reconcile his faith to the glaringly obvious fact that the gospelscannotbe harmonised. But his attempts fell way short of what he attempted to do. In the end, he only highlighted to me that the Bible is full of contradictions and cannot be relied upon historically. I don't agree with you H& S, the Bible is not at all 'mostly harmonious'. In fact, the opposite is true. And it's not just personality differences of the writers that shine's far more than that.If you have't seen/heard this before then let me show you how the most important event in the Bible, the passion and ressurection of Christ, is full of contradictions, etc. God knows how Mel Gibson chose which narrative to 'believe' when making his movie...LK 22:3-23Satan entered Judas before the supper.JN 13:27It was during the supper.MT 26:18-20,57-68,27:1-2,MK 14:16-18,53-72,15:1Jesus' initial hearing was at night on Passover. In the morning he was taken to Pilate.LK 22:13-15,54-66The initial hearing took place in the morning on Passover.JN 18:28,19:14It took place the day before Passover, on the Day of Preparation.MT 26:34,LK 22:34,JN 13:38Peter was to deny Jesus before the cock crowed.MK 14:30Before the cock crowed twice.MK 14:66-72The cock crows after both the first and second denials.(Note: These discrepancies have been "translated out" in some Bible versions.)MT 26:40-45,MK 14:37-41The disciples fall asleep three times.LK 22:45One time.JN 17:12Jesus has lost none of his disciples other than Judas.JN 18:9Jesus has lost none, period.JN 17:12Mentions a "son of perdition" as appearing in scripture (meaning the OT).(Note: There is no "son of perdition" mentioned in the OT.)MT 26:49-50,MK 14:44-46Jesus is betrayed by Judas with a kiss, then seized.LK 22:47-48Jesus anticipates Judas' kiss. No actual kiss is mentioned.JN 18:2-9Jesus voluntarily steps forward to identify himself making it completely unnecessary for Judas to point him out. No kiss is mentioned.MT 26:51,MK 14:47,JN 18:10The ear of a slave is cut off and left that way.LK 22:50-51The severed ear is miraculously healed by Jesus.MT 26:52Dispose of swords. All who take the sword will perish by it.LK 22:36-38Buy swords.MT 26:57,MK 14:53,LK 22:54After his arrest Jesus is first taken to Caiphas, the high priest.JN 18:13-24First to Annas, the son-in-law of Caiphas, then to Caiphas.MT 26:59-66,MK 14:55-64Jesus was tried by the entire Sanhedrin (the chief priests and the whole council).LK 22:66-71There was no trial but merely an inquiry held by the Sanhedrin.JN 18:13-24There was no appearance before the Sanhedrin, only the private hearings before Annas and then Caiphas.MT 26:63,LK 22:70The high priest asks Jesus if he is the Son of God.MK 14:61He asks Jesus if he is the Son of the Blessed.MT 26:64,LK 22:70Jesus answers: "You have said so," or words to this effect.MK 14:62He answers directly: "I am."MT 26:69-70Peter makes his first denial to a maid and "them all."MK 14:66-68,LK 22:56-57,JN 18:17It was to one maid only.MT 26:71-72Peter's second denial is to still another maid.MK 14:69-70(Apparently) to the same maid.LK 22:58To a man, not a maid.JN 18:25To more than one, "they."MT 26:73-74,MK 14:70-71Peter's third denial is to bystanders (two or more).LK 22:59-60To "another" (one).JN 18:26-27To one of the servants.MT 26:74The cock crowed once.MK 14:72The cock crowed twice.MT 27:3-7The chief priests bought the field.AC 1:16-19Judas bought the field.MT 27:5Judas threw down the pieces of silver, then departed.AC 1:18He used the coins to buy the field.MT 27:5Judas hanged himself.AC 1:18He fell headlong, burst open, and his bowels gushed out.MT 27:11,MK 15:2,LK 23:3When asked if he is King of the Jews, Jesus answers: "You have said so," (or "Thou sayest").JN 18:33-34He answers: "Do you say this of your own accord?"MT 27:11-14Jesus answers not a single charge at his hearing before Pilate.JN 18:33-37Jesus answers all charges at his hearing before Pilate.MT 27:20The chief priests and elders are responsible for persuading the people to ask for the release of Barabbas.MK 15:11Only the chief priests are responsible.LK 23:18-23The people ask, apparently having decided for themselves.MT 27:28Jesus is given a scarlet robe (a sign of infamy).MK 15:17,JN 19:2A purple robe (a sign of royalty).MT 27:32,MK 15:21,LK 23:26Simon of Cyrene carries Jesus' cross.JN 19:17Jesus carries his own cross with no help from anyone.MT 27:37The inscription on the cross read: "This is Jesus the King of the Jews."MK 15:26"The King of the Jews."LK 23:38"This is the King of the Jews."JN 19:19"Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews."MK 15:25It was the third hour when Jesus was crucified.JN 19:14-15It was after the sixth hour since Jesus was still before Pilate and had not yet been sentenced at that time.MT 27:44Both of those who are crucified with Jesus taunt him.LK 23:39-42Only one taunts Jesus, and he is rebuked by the other for doing so.
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Re:4 Gospels...1 Jesus?

Date Posted:30/11/2005 11:40 PMCopy HTML

MT 27:46-50, MK 15:34-37 Jesus' last recorded words are: "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"
LK 23:46 "Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit."
JN 19:30 "It is finished." (Note: Even though both MT and MK represent direct quotes and are translated similarly, the actual Greek words used for God are different. MT uses "Eli" and MK uses "Eloi.")

MT 27:48, LK 23:36, JN 19:29 Jesus was offered vinegar to drink.
MK 15:23 It was wine and myrrh, and he did not drink it.
JN 19:29-30 Whatever it was, he did drink it.

MT 27:54 The centurion says: "Truly this was the son of God."
MK 15:39 He says: "Truly this man was the son of God!"
LK 23:47 He says: "Truly this man was innocent" (or "righteous").

MT 27:55, MK 15:40, LK 23:49 The women looked on from afar.
JN 19:25-26 They were near enough that Jesus could speak to his mother.

LK 23:55-56 The women followed Joseph to the tomb, saw how the body had been laid, then went to prepare spices with which to anoint the body.
JN 19:39-40 Joseph brought spices with him (75 or a 100 lbs.) and annointed the body (as the women should have noticed).

MT 27:62-66 A guard was placed at the tomb (the day following the burial).
MK 15:42- 16:8, LK 23:50-56, JN 19:38-42 (No guard is mentioned. This is important since rumor had it that Jesus' body was stolen and the Resurrection feigned.)
MK 16:1-3, LK 24:1 (There could not have been a guard, as far as the women were concerned, since they were planning to enter the tomb with spices. Though the women were aware of the stone, they were obviously unaware of a guard.)

MT 28:1 The first visitors to the tomb were Mary Magdalene and the other Mary (two).
MK 16:1 Both of the above plus Salome (three).
LK 23:55 - 24:1, 24:10 Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and "other women" (at least five).
JN 20:1 Mary Magdalene only (one).

MK 16:1-2 The women came to the tomb to anoint the body.
JN 19:39-40 The body had already been anointed and wrapped in linen cloth.

MK 16:5, LK 24:3 The women actually entered the tomb.
JN 20:1-2, 11 They did not.

MT 28:1 It was toward dawn when they arrived.
MK 16:2 It was after sunrise.
LK 24:1 It was at early dawn.
JN 20:1 It was still dark.

MT 28:1-2 The stone was still in place when they arrived. It was rolled away later.
MK 16:4, LK 24:2, JN 20:1 The stone had already been rolled (or taken) away.

MT 28:2 An angel arrived during an earthquake, rolled back the stone, then sat on it (outside the tomb).
MK 16:5 No earthquake, only one young man sitting inside the tomb.
LK 24:2-4 No earthquake. Two men suddenly appear standing inside the tomb.
JN 20:12 No earthquake. Two angels are sitting inside the tomb.

MT 28:8 The visitors ran to tell the disciples.
MK 16:8 They said nothing to anyone.
LK 24:9 They told the eleven and all the rest.
JN 20:10-11 The disciples returned home. Mary remained outside, weeping.

MT 28:8-9 Jesus' first Resurrection appearance was fairly near the tomb.
LK 24:13-15 It was in the vicinity of Emmaus (seven miles from Jerusalem).
JN 20:13-14 It was right at the tomb.

MT 28:9 On his first appearance to them, Jesus lets Mary Magdalene and the other Mary hold him by his feet.
JN 20:17 On his first appearance to Mary, Jesus forbids her to touch him since he has not yet ascended to the Father.
JN 20:27 A week later, although he has not yet ascended to the Father, Jesus tells Thomas to touch him.

MT 28:7-10, MT 28:16 Although some doubted, the initial reaction of those that heard the story was one of belief since they followed the revealed instructions.
MK 16:11, LK 24:11 The initial reaction was one of disbelief. All doubted.

MT 28:1-18 The order of Resurrection appearances was: Mary Magdalene and the other Mary, then the eleven.
MK 16:9-14 It was Mary Magdalene, then two others, then the eleven.
LK 24:15-36 It was two, then Simon (Peter?), then the eleven.
JN 20:14 - 21:1 It was Mary Magdalene, then the disciples without Thomas, then the disciples with Thomas, then the eleven disciples again.
1CO 15:5-8 It was Cephas (Peter?), then the "twelve" (which twelve, Judas was dead?), then 500+ brethren (although AC 1:15 says there were only about 120), then James, then all the Apostles, then Paul.

MK 16:14-19 The Ascension took place (presumably from a room) while the disciples were together seated at a table, probably in or near Jerusalem.
LK 24:50-51 It took place outdoors, after supper, at Bethany (near Jerusalem).
AC 1:9-12 It took place outdoors, after 40+ days, at Mt. Olivet.
MT 28:16-20 No mention is made of an ascension, but if it took place at all, it must have been from a mountain in Galilee since MT ends there.)

LK 23:43 Jesus promises one of those crucified with him that they will be together, that very day, in Paradise.
JN 20:17, AC 1:3 Jesus was not raised until the third day and did not ascend until at least forty days later.

And this is just the death and ressurection.  There are numerous other examples of this kind of thing right throughout the Bible.  How are we supposed to 'believe' when the stories are all so different.  What version we supposed to believe? 

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Re:4 Gospels...1 Jesus?

Date Posted:01/12/2005 6:48 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : Mr J

MT 27:46-50,MK 15:34-37Jesus' last recorded words are: "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"LK 23:46"Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit."JN 19:30"It is finished." (Note: Even though bothMTandMKrepresent direct
I'm a bit of a fan of police shows. Two eye-witness accounts that are identical in every detail are often under suspicion. The gospels are eye-witness accounts. Witnesses remember different details and can be talking what they saw at different times. Considering the apostles were with Jesus for 3 1/2 years the gospels are necessarily abbreviated. For example if you read the Sermon on the Mount out loud it takes about three minutes. It says in John that Jesus said and did much more than he was able to record.

Are you just looking for excuses for your unbelief? Ironically in China there are about 100 million Christians now. You are missing something.

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Re:4 Gospels...1 Jesus?

Date Posted:01/12/2005 8:16 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : pilinut

I'm a bit of a fan of police shows. Two eye-witness accounts that are identical in every detail are often under suspicion.

Perhaps.  But eyewitness accounts that differ to this degree coming from a book 'inspired' by God and pertaining to people's eternal destinies is a completely different issue.  We are expected to believe that God had a hand in the writing and canonisation of the Bible.  This is not a trial conducted by people in a human court.  This is supposedly the Word of God. 

The gospels are eye-witness accounts. Witnesses remember different details and can be talking what they saw at different times.

But when they contradict each other at so many points then one cannot help but mistrust these eyewitnesses and their ability to recall events.  Again, this is not a recount of a theft.  it is apparently the Word of God.  I put it to you again, which order and description of events should we believe?

Considering the apostles were with Jesus for 3 1/2 years the gospels are necessarily abbreviated.

Abbreviation is very different from contradiction.  If it was simply omissions of events then we could all be happy in the knowlledge that God did his work in inspiriing the text.  But it isn't just abbrevaition or omission is it?  And I didn't highlight 3 1/2 years of Jesus ministry but about 4 or so days. 

Are you just looking for excuses for your unbelief?


Ironically in China there are about 100 million Christians now.

There are far more atheists, animinsts and ancestor veneraters. And where is the 'irony'?  Do you know what 'irony' means?

You are missing something.

Yes you're right. I miss sun dried tomatoes and fresh bread shop bread.  oh, and I REALLY miss meat pies with sauce.

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Re:4 Gospels...1 Jesus?

Date Posted:01/12/2005 1:55 PMCopy HTML

So not mostly Harmonious... what about "Mostly Harmless"... or does that sum up Earth better (lol - HHGTG). Thanks Mr J... interesting reading... and you're as bloody annoying as ever when attempting to argue with. Hahahahahh (oops, the Joker should be Haha-ing... I'm just brooding through my cowl eye-holes). Finding the contradiction has always been a fun game. The bible comes out looking like an an old frayed woolly jumper. I can't help but still feeling convicted about it and thinking of it as a warm and useful jumper... despite the loose ends.

You know how it is when Trekkies get together and argue the finer points of warp drives and how to get the most out of a nacelle or how to use the jeffries tube best (trekker/trekkie terms). They love the canon lore of Trek and try to stay within it's boundaries and abhorr anything that strays from the continuity. The same goes for Tolkien addicts who have studied every paragraph and know the history of every species... What a waste of time! But they love it.. it's fun. Christians and Religios are sort of like that. I'm not sure if I'd call myself a christian anymore but.. parts of me are sitting on the fence.

Sounds like a cop out but, although I have no miracles to profess (or a supernatural tonge to convince me) it comes down to faith, hope, and belief... oh! oh! and a dash of (dare I say it... bible numerics.. eek! - no I won't extrapolate 'that which must not be spoken of').

More on the four gospels concept when I find the video documentary I taped years ago.

[LINK SiteName=Mothrust: Movies and Modern Myth Target=_blank][/LINK] Be nice, for everyone that you meet is fighting a harder battle - Anita Roddick
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