Reply to Hojusaram:

Seems God is a can be a bit gruesome.

Perhaps the OT was inspired by Satan and that the OT prophets spoke lies. Or maybe God was very pissed off that His pride and joy, Adam had sinned? It could be a demonstration by God that He has the right to give and take away as He chooses.(There are 18 incidences and of course as any good scholar of the Holy RCI numerics doctrine would know is doubly final 2 X 9)

For me, I don't understand why these accounts are listed for our benefit except to say that Jesus said not to fear him that kills the body but him that kills body and soul.

Didn't His Son, Jesus die a gruesome death for our benefit?

Seems God is a can be a bit gruesome.

More than that.  It seems he is petty, vengeful, abusive to children, violent, etc.

Perhaps the OT was inspired by Satan and that the OT prophets spoke lies. Or maybe God was very pissed off that His pride and joy, Adam had sinned? It could be a demonstration by God that He has the right to give and take away as He chooses.(There are 18 incidences and of course as any good scholar of the Holy RCI numerics doctrine would know is doubly final 2 X 9)

Which begs the question, 'Is God good?'  More importantly the Bible says that 'God changeth not'.  And yet, he seems to have gone through both a major personality shift and a major philosophical shift between the OT and the NT.  Throughout history many Christians have sought to explain this massive shift in God's character.  Some have dismissed the literal reading of the OT and settled for a 'spiritual reading' by looking for 'pictures' and hidden meanings supporting the NT doctrines and teachings of Jesus.  I personally believe that the OT is one of the biggest problems facing Christianity.  What can be done with this God who seems to be reflecting the minds and behaviours of a violent middle eastern age?  I do believe that God is good.  I really do.  But in doing so I cannot believe that the Bible accounts of God's orders and behaviour are actually inspired of a good God.  You cannot have it both ways.  Either God is good and the OT is crap or God is a violent, child murdering war criminal and the Bible is the word of God.  I know which one I choose.

For me, I don't understand why these accounts are listed for our benefit except to say that Jesus said not to fear him that kills the body but him that kills body and soul.

Yes.  Fear is the key word here isn't it?  God is love, but if you don't love him then look out.  If any world leader today acted as Moses and other Israelite leaders did then we would call them all kinds of names.  And yet, to the Bible believers, these men are 'heroes of the faith'.  If an American president ordered the murder of men, women and children in any war scenario then he would be hauled up before a war crimes tribunal quicksmart.  Has Sadam Hussein done any worse than Moses, David, et al?  I am not sure he has.  But hey, we can forgive men as being flawed humans.  But what about God?  What is his excuse?

Didn't His Son, Jesus die a gruesome death for our benefit?

So if I know my child is going to be murdered then does that give me the right to murder other people's children?  I think not.  Does Jesus' death warrant God to act in a way irreconcilable with 'goodness'?  Again, I think not. 

Can I recommend the article, Best Selling Errancy which deals with these issues in detail?  It can be found at: 

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mark_ball/bible.html

Reply to Hojusaram:

I appreciate your response and point of view. The fact is, whatever happened in the past., to me, bears little relevance to today. In my expereince, God has always been good, certainly to me.

I mean what I say in regards to Adam's sin. Up till that time, God appears to be happy and pleased with His creation (God saw it was good etc etc Genesis) Perhaps God was very angry from that point on until He offered his Son as a sacrifice for sin once and for all (victory over death). Maybe He was sending a message to us all, 'mess around with me and look out!' But... I will offer you a way out because I love you.

I appreciate your response and point of view. The fact is, whatever happened in the past., to me, bears little relevance to today. In my expereince, God has always been good, certainly to me.

I disagree BraveBear.  If you intend to root your perspective of God in the Christian tradition, even if it is your own adaptation of that, then you have to take the Biblical picture of God into account.  What evidence do you have that the Christian God has always been good?  I for one have the Bible to show that he hasn't always acted in concert with his supposed goodness.  If you want to argue in favour of the goodness of God, I will agree with you.  But if you call yourself a Christian and claim that the Bible God is good then I have to take issue.

I mean what I say in regards to Adam's sin. Up till that time, God appears to be happy and pleased with His creation (God saw it was good etc etc Genesis) Perhaps God was very angry from that point on until He offered his Son as a sacrifice for sin once and for all (victory over death). Maybe He was sending a message to us all, 'mess around with me and look out!' But... I will offer you a way out because I love you.

Yeah, that's pretty much the conservative Christian line.  But have a look at the verses I made note of above and ask yourself if God's punishment fits the crime. 

And what is goodness? We can define goodness with our puny minds but what does it really mean?

Ah, a truly philosophical question.  So are you saying that we cannot know goodness and only God can?  Or are you saying that if God does something then it can only be 'good' as he is God and God is good?  Bullshit Merry.  According to Genesis we all know good and evil.  Unless you are a psychopath, I would suspect that you, like me, think the killing of the innocent (ie children) is a BAD thing. 

And what of these people that God supposedly ordered to be tortured and murdered?

Well if you believe the Bible is true then there ain't nothing 'supposed' about it.

He is God...he knows all. So he would know each and every one of their hearts and futures (including the unborn babies) and known what kind of people they were. Perhaps they were evil people? Perhaps they would hurt others? So God punished and destroyed them KNOWING who they were and what they have or would have become.

Ah yes.  What a good thought.  But aren't we all evil in the sight of God without Jesus?  Aren't we all deserving of punishment without Jesus?  And what of free will?  Why allow any unrighteous people to live if they will only deny God?  Why create them simply to send them to hell?  Your thoughts open up a lot of questions.  Such as why did God allow Hitler to grow up and be responsible for the mass extermination of 6,000,000 Jews?  Think about that Merry.  150,000 died in the recent tsunami and we are all horrified (and rightly so) but Hitler ordered the deaths of 6,000,000 Jews.  Where was God then?  Perhaps he was killing other babies?  Merry, is this the kind of God you want to believe in?  One that knows the future and so orders the murder of babies?  Babies.  Babies. 

And there are a lot of evil people in the world today.  Why isn't God telling people to kill those babies?  Oh, that's right, this was the Old Testament.  God has changed since then right?  Wrong.  God changeth not.

Would you prefer a pedophile to be destroyed whilst in the womb or wait till AFTER they hurt children?

Yeah, let's save children by killing other children.  Dangerous territory Merry.  I would rather God save the paedophile from becoming a paedophile.  Wouldn't you?  Why kill a baby when God can do a little miracle sand save the offender from all that would make him/her into a child molester.

Maybe God was doing the right thing? You say it was wrong to kill all these people but what if these people were all evil people? What if they themselves were all rapists and murderers or were GOING to be rapists and murderers? Maybe he did everyone else a favour by getting rid of these people?

You're clutching at straws Merry.  Goodness is knowable and somewhat definable.  God blew it or the Bible isn't factual.  I go for the latter.

These are things we do not know. Adn these are things we will NEVER comprehend as long as we are on this earth. So you can sit and question it till the cows come home...but you'll never have the answers because we do not and will never know the heart of man. Only God does...stands to reason why he would be the only one to order such things as we've seen in the OT. You think it's unfair because you don't understand why he did this. But if you knew the heart of man..perhaps you would understand completely!

Again, you're clutching at straws.  I put my faith in someone or something based on some degree of fact about the worthiness of that person or thing.  You go right ahead and see that God can violate his own measure of goodness.  Are you telling me that it is ok to kill babies Merry?  God seems to think so.  Do you agree with him?  I will go out and kill babies Merry but you will have to trust me that I knew something you didn't.  You don't buy that and either do I.

The world was on the path of destruction. People were destroying themselves and each other. So God would nip it in the bud and destroy great numbers of people before they spread. Man needed a saviour so bad!! They were on the wrong path. So that's why he sent his son Jesus to save us.

Yes.  And those who do not believe in him will be sent to God's eternal concentration camp...aka HELL.  God is good.  Merry, God creates people not the devil.  So why does God create all these evil people...so he can send them to hell?  Rather than kill babies, why not just NOT create them?  Nah, let's make 'em and kill 'em while their young.  Better yet, after that's done then straight into the Lake of Fire.  God is good.  God changeth not!

Well that's my explanation. Thought of it all just then. Never asked these questions before.

Either had I until quite recently.  And as I asked these questions I saw that Christianity has no answers.  No answers that make any real sense anyway.  I am glad you have decided to enter into this discussion Merry.  It is good for us to challenge one another's suppositions and beliefs.

But I'm sure you'll dismiss it all with some comment like. Why kill bad people? Or something along those lines of 'typical christian fed crap'..even though I have never been told these things in my life. But that won't stop you from finding something else wrong with it

I hope you don't think I dismissed your point of view that easily.  I was once a Christian like you and never thought about these things either.  I challenge you to think through these issues and not just accept the inconsistencies of the Bible 'in faith'.

Better shut up now before I'm accused of being an attention seeker

I never said that.  I enjoy you around here Merry.  Keep smiling girl.

Were they innocent? How do you know that they were innocent? Only God knows this stuff.

Merry.  They had done nothing wrong to deserve death.  They were children Merry.  They had not grown up.  They were children.

Yes but there are some things that we can do that can hurt others. Telling a lie is one thing, killing someone is another. One action only affects us, the other stops a life.

I am not sure what you are trying to say here but I assume it is response to what the babies God wanted dead were going to do.  But Merry, if we have free will and then do bad things and pay a punishment then that is one thing.  But if someone is killed by God for things they have yet to do then that negates free will.  This person has no free will at all.

He didn't. His creation of man was perfect initially.

No, I am saying why allow such bad people to be born at all?  Why cause Israel to commit murder of babies who have done nothing to deserve it (yet)?  Why not just cause a barrenness to come over the tribe in question?  Or why not tell the Israelites to take the children and raise them uder God's laws.  You know, a 'stolen generation' kind of thing?  Oops, that's not acceptable eother is it?  Or os that ok too if God says so?  You know that the aboriginal stolen generation was on religious and social grounds too right?

Appealing to my emotions hey - good thinking! But all I can think of is that Hitler was once a baby too. It's not ok for the likes of you or me to kill a baby but if God knows the heart of that baby and where it was headed then yes he has the power to stop it.

 

No I am not appealing to your emotions.  I am apealing to your sense of right and wrong Merry.  It might be easy for you to read the Bible and see the killing of evil children, but how about you see them as real babies who have done nothing wrong yet? 

Why didn't he stop hitler? because he sent his son Jesus who died for all sin that's why. If hitler had lived in the old testament...he would have been stopped for sure.

Is ths really what you think?  Do you think that Jesus' death means that Hitler escapes punishment?  No Merry.  Hitler is sent to hell which is a far worse punishment that being killed.  It is eternal torture in a lake of fire.  Jesus' death does not prohibit God from interfering in the world today anymore than he did in the OT.  Why would Jesus' death stop God from interfering in modern history?  Did God stop the slaughter of babies by Pharoah in Moses' time?  No.  Did he stop the slaughter of babies by Herod in Jesus' time?  No.  God not only does nothing about the slaughter of babies.  He supports the action in certain circumstances.

No he hasn't changed but He also always planned to send his Son to die on the Cross. And nothing changed. He did, and Jesus dying on the Cross meant that he took all the sin onto himself then died! No need to kill anybody anymore because they can have redemption through Christ if they so choose.

 

Merry, Jesus' death does not claim to save anyone from death, but from the second death, (ie eternal damnation).  We all still die a natural death.  God's punishment on the unrighteous both before and after the NT is eternal fire and brimstone.  So your argument doesn't work.  Sorry.

No not 'Let's' because we don't know the heart of man so WE can't do a single thing. Only God can. God has now given the paedophile the chance to be saved. He's already done that. The Paedophile has freedom of will and can choose to believe in Christ - thus be saved anytime he wants. He would not kill them now because of this chance of redemption through Christ. But back in the OT he did because there was no saviour yet.

Ah, so now the paedophile has the freedom to choose, but these babies in the OT didn't?  Why didn't God give the babies in the OT the chance to repent?  Don't say it was because Jesus hadn't died yet, becuase according to the Bible, Jesus death covered those before and after the NT time.  If God knows who will accept Jesus and who will not and he knows who will do great evil then it doesn't matter when they were born.  God ordered the killing of babies Merry.

I don't think its ok for any MAN to kill babies no. And no God doesn't think that's it's ok for Man to kill babies either.

 

But Merry.  God commanded men to kill babies.  Or even worse when the Israelites did so without God's direct charge then they are not rebuked for it, thus showing God's will to be thus.  No matter how you slice it Merry.  God says it is A-OK to kill babies.

 

But I think that it's ok for God to kill babies in the old testament because he is God and he knows all.

 

Then here is where the argument ends.  You think it is ok to kill babies if God is in the loop about it.   Fine.  If you think that then you can accept the OT attrocities wherever they emerge.  Remind me not to hire a fundamnetalist Christian babysitter...ever!

Go and tell your non-Christian friends that and then ask them if they want to accept Jesus.  LOL!!!

He knew what he was doing. He destroyed whole cities that were corrupted and on the path of destruction and bringing everybody else down with them. He gave the just a way out but he killed the unjust.

Yeah, just like the tsunami right?  Bloody dirty Muslim Indonesians with their bombing of Chrisitians.  A curse on them and their babies right?  Don't give any money to the relief effort because its only God doing his judging on the unjust right?  Any relief you give will only hinder the judgement of God.  How is the tsunami any different from the OT judgements of God.

 

Sin was a curse...it carried down from generation to generation...the babies were cursed with sin...the sins of the fathers were passed down.

 

But Merry.  Even Israel was cursed with sin.  Through Adam all were cursed, not just the (evil, but done no wrong yet) babies

 

But now because of Christ, we are free from the curse. We all have a way out. Now it would not be ok for God to kill babies. Men who have not chosen Christ and who don't have salvation - yes but not babies, who are neither cursed nor do they have the understanding.

 

I think I answered that one above a few times.

Yes I do think that the God of the OT to kill who he pleases if he feels that they are or would be a threat to others is quite ok. It upsets me, being human and unknowledgeable of the heart of man but I have to trust that God knows what he was doing. I trust him enough to do this. I also trust that he is true to his word and will follow through with what he says in the NT too.

 

Merry, I think it is the other way around to be honest.  You trust his word and therefore have to trust in his decision to be a sadistic baby killer.


Well technically he did create the Devil Only he wasn't the devil then.

You misunderstood me.  I mean that God, not the devil, creates all people.


Merry.  I am getting tired now.  Please don't think I am conceding defeat.  You think it is ok to kill babies and I don't.  You and your God are in agreement.  You believe the Bible.  I don't.  That's cool.  Go right ahead.

And yes Merry, I did believe in Jesus.  100%!!!  I know you would like to find a reason how I could be so full on and walk away but it happens all the time.  People find that their religion is empty and a human construct and walk away.  You did it in the RCs but no one here challenges the authenticity of your belief when you were there?  Why challeng my Christian belief like that?  You are acting just like a Revivalist in this respect don't you think.  (You know how they talk..."Oh, he left because he wanted to have sex and drink and smoke.'  Etc...)  I believed it, it was garbage and I left.  That goes for the RCs and mainstream Christianity.

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Why you asking me for? Ask God then! I wouldn't have the foggiest why he killed babies back then. I presume because they were evil and that they had been cursed with the sins of the fathers (different curse BTW leviticus).You misunderstood a fair bit of what I said but that's not unusual for me. So what are you saying that you don't believe in Jesus anymore? (and cut the Revival crap cos' that's not where I'm coming from) Do you think that the OT isn't the word of God and that the NT is? What is your stance now?

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Well, I was trying to make the point that the OT paints a very different picture of God to the NT.  I believe this is because the OT is not the inspired word of God.  There are too many flaws, inconsitencies and pictures of a nasty ol' God for it to be inspired.  The biggest argument against the inspiration of Scripture is the inconsistency of the Old and New Testaments.  So I am not trying to get an answer from you.  I am simply defending my point of view (in the NOT CHRISTIAN room by the way). 

So in answer to your questions...  I don't believe in Jesus anymore.  The Bible paints him as an amazing, unique man.  But that is all he was (inspite of what the bible says).  An no, I dont believe the Bible to be inspired AT ALL. 

But Merry.  This isn't the room to be asking those questions.  Go back and read the introduction on the main page and decide if you should come in here again.  We can still chat about other things in other rooms if you think you might miss me. 

I would say, "I guess you will see me in hell" but I don't believe there is a hell.

Reply to : Anonymous

Firstly let me say a sincere and grateful thanks for your detailed reply.  As I mentioned, I cut and pasted the list from another forum and am not the author.  I did go through the list with a Bible however before posting it.  I will go through your objections one by one in the same way you did. 

First of all, God does everything for a reason. We are Gods creation - he is all knowing and all powerful.. We can not begin to understand all things that God does, simply because we are not God.

So in the end, it doesn't really matter what I have to say as you believe in God and that he is good and any apparent act of God's that seems to transgress his own goodness is not a transgression on God's part at all but is simply beyond your understanding.  I am not so quick to let the OT God off the hook.  Sorry, but if this Christian God wants my devotion and love then I want to see some this unchanging goodness he boasts of  and not contradictions of this in the 'so called' record of his dealings with humanity.  You can let it slide under the banner of being too stupidly human to know,  but this book was written for humans right?  Surely God foresaw how he looked in these verses and could have put in some footnotes for these apparent blunders on his part.  You know, something like... "Yes, it looks bad what I did here but it was actually because Jebediah was full of HIV and had I let him live then he would have spread it like the plague (which is another saga I know!).  And you know how those OT believers liked to spread their seed!  So don't worry.  I am still good."  Alas, he didn't put in footnotes so I have to wrestle with these verses as they stand.  You can claim to be too stupid to know how God works, but I am gonna try to nut out this so called inspired book of his.

More importantly, your reasoning above simply gives the Christians a way out of having to face the contradictions of God.  No answer?  It's ok, God is too big to comprehend.  Pretty convenient but weak argument I reckon.

Everything is a part of Gods plan, and that is to save as many people as possible from sin and bring them into Salvation. All people who were killed in the Old Testament had the opportunity to accept Jesus as their Lord and Saviour when Jesus died and went down and preached to them all:

So it was ok to kill 'em all as that wasn't the end of the story right?  So why then was murder such a serious  OT sin?  If death isn't so bad after all then why can't anyone just kill anyone in the OT?  Jesus is gonna give 'em all another chance anyway right?  Heck if God can kill people for complaining then I can surely kill someone for raping my kids right?  At least in the OT anyway.

1.God burns whiners alive. Numbers 11:1

These people were not just whiners, God had saved them from slavery, they were ungrateful and ignorant. Also, that verse does not say that he burnt them alive - it says he set fire to the outside of the camp.

D'oh!  Conceded!

2.God poisons complainers. Numbers 21:5-6

Once again this was for a reason, they were sinning against God. Sin = death.

Yeah, but sin = death for everyone.  We all die.  Both OT and NT.  Why does the sin of complaining result in a speedy death (yes, they died) in this case?  Off the top of my head didn't Miriam complain against Moses and get leprosy but was healed?  What is this? Nepotism?  Why does she get to live and others died from snake bite?  (Maybe she was simply a main character in the story.  You now how in Star Trek it's always the unnamed ensign who gets it, never Bones or Kirk. It doesn't matter if god killed unnamed Israelites as they don't really matter anywway right?)  But hang on, she died eventually anyway didn't she?  Your response here lacks any substance.  What are you trying to say?  They sinned and so God cut their lives short?  Why didn't he do that to others at other times?  I am sure lot's of people in the OT complained against God and didn't get snalkes sent their way.

God sent snakes - but once they realised they were sinning and repented he provided a means for salvation - looking at the snake that was killed and put on the pole

Perhaps.  But first "many Israelites died" (v6).  No 'means of salvation' for them huh?  Don't you think this punishment is a little harsh for the crime though?  God sends snakes to kill people for complaining?  Geez.  Lucky the modern God doesn't do that or else there would be no one left in church to pay the minister's wage.

(This is actually an interesting parallel to Jesus who took on OUR sins and died so that we can live also).

According to John 3, yes it is.  But this doesn't detract from my objections above.

3.Smashing babies on rocks is a good thing. Psalms 137:8-9

That verse is speaking of revenge for the killings that the Israelites suffered at the hands of the Edomites - no where does it say God condones the killings.

Ah but it begs so many questions about the inspiration of Scritpure doesn't it?  Why oh why would God leave such vengeful rantings in the Psalms let alone in the Bible at all?  Where was the Holy Spirit at the moment of inspiration when these verses were written?  Shouldn't the HS have held back the vengeful carnality of the human who wrote that Psalm?  Or why did the Spirit allow this to be included in the OT at all?  Is it is inspired?  What we need is another footnote!

4.An angel commits mass murder. 2 Kings 19:35

The Assyrians were killing and torturing people throughout the lands.. It was not murder, it was an act of defense (2 Kings 19:34). They did not kill all people, 185 000 were killed. This shocked the king and the retreated and left the Israelites alone after that.

Wll hardly a fair fight though was it?   Couldn't the angel have just appeared to them and said, "Uh uh.  Turn around an go home!"  I know if that had happened to me I would have thought twice.  Did the angel really have to kill them all?  Isn't he God over all creation?  Didn't he love them too?  Actually, I think this demonstrates that Yahweh was only a national deity back then and gave Israel special treatment.  Luckily for us now, he is God of all creation right?

5.God commits genocide on babies. Exodus 12:29

Pharaoh was warned to let the Hebrews go.. he refused. His stubbornness brought wealth upon his people. It wasn't until the killing that Pharaoh let the Hebrews go. God has his reasons, and all people from the OT still had an opportunity to be Saved. It was Pharaoh's sin that brought Gods wrath upon his people.

Exodus repeats over and over again that "God hardened Pharaoh's heart." So God killed a lot of males who had no say in the matter of Israel's freedom (and we can only speculate how many Egyptians who sympathised with the Israelites died or lost someone that night) on account of the sin of one man.  Not only that, but God caused Pharoah to resist Moses' pleas.  Eery way you slice it, God acted attrociously. 

6.God causes cannibalism. Jeremiah 19:9

God did not cause cannibalism, God threatened destruction to evil people who worshiped the false god baal. He threatened them with complete destruction for their killing on innocent children in sacrifice to baal. God was angry at their wicked deeds, and was going to completely wipe them out. It was THEIR sin that caused Gods anger. They were the ones killing innocent children as an offering to a FALSE god.

"I will make them eat the flesh of their sons and daughters."  Better that than sacrificing them to Baal right?  Why didn't God save their kids?  it seems that either way, the kids get the rough end of the stick don't you think?  Was there a better way for God to handle this situation?  God repeatedly says he has made, or will make, people cannibalize their own children, husbands, wives, parents, and friends because they haven't obeyed him. [Lev. 26:29, Deut. 28:53-58, Jer. 19:9, Ezek. 5:10].   

7.God demands heads - literally. Numbers 25:4

Yes, God commanded everyone who were worshiping the false god baal to be killed - just a reminder, people use to offer their children as sacrifices to baal. God killed them for their blasphemy and wickedness. If he didn't then it could have spread throughout the Hebrews and defiled them all.

No, not everyone, only the leaders.  But the thing here is that God commanded it. 

8.God commands slaughter and rape. Numbers 31:17-18

The Israelites had disobeyed God, God had told them to kill all of the Midianites, but they hadn't. God asked them why, as these had been the people who had followed Balaam and who had caused the Israelites to rebel against God. He then commanded them to kill all of them except for the young women who were virgins. He consented to keeping them as wives.. not to rape them. No where does it say rape. This is how all cultures worked for many many years, people use to just "take" a woman as a wife.

 I will concede the 'rape' point.  But the implication is the women were there for the 'use' of the men.  Nowhere does it say that they were to taken as 'wives'.  In fact, it was also common in many cultures for years to enslave the young women as concubines, not wives.  Slaves for certain but also for a sexual purpose.  Don't try to tell me Israel never allowed concubines.  We may have to agree that the verse is unclear about what the women were 'kept for'.  But you have neglected to mention that God commanded the slaughter of women and children.  Don't we all get upset at the horror stories from Vietnam about this kind of thing? 

9.God commands genocide and plunder. Deuteronomy 2:31-35

Yes, they were evil people - once again.. they have since had an opportunity to accept Jesus as their Saviour.

So it is ok to kill women and and children (or men for that matter) if they are evil.  Ok.  So at what point is a child considered evil?  What does he/she have to do to be considered evil?  And at what age does this child reach to be responsible for his her own evilness?  I wonder how many babies were there?

10.God commands slaughter, rape, and plunder. Deuteronomy 20:13-14

Evil people once again.. no where does it say rape. Rape was against the law, they were allowed to take the women as their wives.

Again, I will concede the rape point.  But gee, these Israelites must have been short on women though huh?  So many unmarried men looking for wives?   But of note here is that the women, children and livestock were to be kept as plunder.  Yes, as plunder!  And what, the Israelites took these children and established schools and World Vision sponsorship programs for them?  Nope.  Plunder.  Slaves.  Geez, these Israelites must have very short memories as they were only slaves themselves crying our for freedom not too long ago.

11.God assists slaughter and mutilation. Judges 1:4-6

Eye for an eye - the man who had his toes cut off had done the same to others.]

Well, I am not sharing the morality espoused in those verses.  I would rather share what Jesus said about turning the other cheek.  But ok, conceded.

12.Godly man offers his daughter and his Godly guest gives his concubine up for gang rape, then murders hers, then dismembers her. Judges 19:22-29

This was not at all condoned.. in fact if you missed putting in verse 30 where it was actually said to be wrong by the people from the tribes of Israel who saw it. There are people today who claim to be Godly, it doesn't mean they are. There are people who are supposedly Godly who do wicked things.. so that means nothing. The fact that the tribes of Israel were not happy with what he had done proves that it is not something they condoned, or that God approved of.

Ah, but was the Israelite dissaproval at the man, the rape gang or the whole thing?  Assuming ti was the third possibility...conceded.

13.God gives men tumors and boils on their genitals. 1 Samuel 5:8-9

My translation doesn't say anything about their genitals... but these people stole the Ark of the Covenant! It is not like they stole some bread.. they stole something holy, and they suffered the repercussions. It caused them to return it did it not?

No angelic warning?  No other way to handle it?  Tumors (wherever they were)?  Where is the God of grace?  Sounds like a vengeful national deity again to me.

14.David collects foreskins and presents them as dowry. 1 Samuel 18:27

This has nothing to do with anything God condoned.. this was Samuels doing. As a dowry he asked for foreskins from the Philistines as he said he wanted vengeance (what he really wanted was for David to be killed in battle).. This is history and is not something God condoned.

Ok, conceded.  But isn't this David we're talking about?  Shouldn't he have been repentant about murdering all these people so he could marry the King's daughter?  Later on when David kills one man (Uriah), nathan turns up and all sorts of repercussions are unleashed.  Oh, that's right, uriah was an Israelite and these were dirty Phillistines right?  National deity again?

15.Amnon rapes his sister, then kicks her out. 2 Samuel 13:10-15

Once again, this was not condoned by God - in fact quite the opposite! So I neglect to see how this proves God is evil.. to me it just reaffirms my belief that all humans are evil and in need of saving.

Conceded.

16.God sends two bears to maul rude youngsters. 2 Kings 2:23-24

Elisha had cursed them

Cursed them "in the Name of the Lord".  God honoured his curse and sent two bears to kill the boys (youths by the way).  Who else was it?  The devil?  Did the devil honour Elisha's curse in the name of the Lord?  And what did the Lord get 'em for?  Calling Elisha 'baldy'.  Yeah, that's fair.  Nice God.

17.Infanticide, rape, and looting for God. Isaiah 13:15-16

This was prophesy. It was predicting the downfall of Babylon. It was not "for" God.. it was a prediction of the Medes destroying Babylon and God never allowing Babylon to be rebuilt.

Yes, not "for God" rather "of God" (v6, v9)  The Day of the Lord.    Not one of my stronger points, but attributed to God nonetheless.

18. Killing babies, slicing open pregnant women. Hosea 13:16

This was a prophesy once again of an invading army..
All of the above tragedies and horrific things that happened were as a result of sin. None of them occurred because people were hard done by or innocent. They were all caused by sinful behavior. It is my belief that God wiped out many sinful people because he didn't want the whole world to be completely defiled.

Hang on.  What about the babies in the wombs?  They suffer judgement too?  Not so fair that is.

He ultimately wants to see us all saved.

But he doesn't necessarily want us all to live.

If he had have let the sinful people continue (and these were not mild cases of sin - we are talking about mass rape, murder, torture, killing of children etc)..

Yeah, we can't have any of that...unless the israelites and/or God are doing it.

and their pagan influence - then it would have hindered his ultimate triumph.. and that is the plan of Salvation through Jesus Christ.

He didn't seem to mind interupting history and the laws of nature and physics to kill women, children and the unborn in the womb.  So why not intervene in other ways to keep his plan on track?

All people who were killed were given the opportunity for salvation through Jesus Christ.

Well, we hope so anyway.  But all the same, killing and the like is still killing and the like.

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If only I had taken the time to actually research that list up there

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I have been reading all of this debate about the validity of the OT and that God of the OT was vengenful etc etc.. and quite frankly leaves me cold and bewildered. Once again it shows how men and women are prepared to pass judgement on the nature of God by simply interpreting the words of a book written by a few men. If the OT writings wern't inspired by God as some would have us believe, then the argument about the validity of the truth of its content would be questionable anyway.

On the other hand, if it IS inspired by God, then there is more to its purpose and meaning than just a history lesson. Depending on one's life experiences, one may find spiritual parallels and messages in these texts which may be of help in one's walk through life. The fact is, no one alive today was there (unless you believe in reincarnation), so no one really knows if any of it is accurate or correct or not.

My faith is grounded on what I have actually experienced first hand. Prior to my experience of being filled with the Holy Spirit, I had only superficial interest in God's plan if any! I made my life decisions based on head knowledge only, never being sure that I was making the right decision or not. If anything went wrong, I worried and suffered and felt I was out of control of the situation.

Since the Grace of God was granted to me, I have experienced many times, God's power in my life. When I have been faced with devastation and death (WHICH HAS HAPPENED TO ME ON MANY OCASSIONS), my initial instinct is to go to my head knowledge and start worrying how the hell am I am going to deal with this.

But eventually through experience, if I back off mentally and allow God to work, somehow, something always happens that allows me a way out or shows me a solution, and more importantly, gives me the peace, strength and confidence to deal with it to the end whatever that trial is. I am still here today, battling through life, but confident, strong, happy and successful, something that did not happen before I allowed Jesus into my heart.

As far as I am concerned, writings in the Bible whether OT or NT, are just as good as any other communication or spiritual gift and must be taken with discernment. God only knows if and why these things happened, otherwise, why are we here in the first place?

knock knock may I?

I hope I won't go to hell for posting this

Library: Modern Documents: Donald Morgan: Atrocity

NOTE: These lists are meant to identify possible problems in the Bible, especially problems which are inherent in a literalist or fundamentalist interpretation. Some of the selections may be resolvable on certain interpretations--after all, almost any problem can be eliminated with suitable rationalizations--but it is the reader's obligation to test this possibility and to decide whether it really makes appropriate sense to do this. To help readers in this task, these lists are aimed at presenting examples where problems may exist given certain allowable (but not always obligatory) assumptions. It should be kept in mind that a perfect and omnipotent God could, should, and likely would see to it that such problems did not exist in a book which s/he had inspired.

Note: In the Bible, words having to do with killing significantly outnumber words having to do with love.

GE 3:1-7, 22-24 God allows Adam and Eve to be deceived by the Serpent (the craftiest of all of God's wild creatures). They eat of the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil," thereby incurring death for themselves and all of mankind for ever after. God prevents them from regaining eternal life, by placing a guard around the "Tree of Eternal Life." (Note: God could have done the same for the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil" in the first place and would thereby have prevented the Fall of man, the necessity for Salvation, the Crucifixion of Jesus, etc.)

GE 4:2-8 God's arbitrary preference of Abel's offering to that of Cain's provokes Cain to commit the first biblically recorded murder and kill his brother Abel.

GE 34:13-29 The Israelites kill Hamor, his son, and all the men of their village, taking as plunder their wealth, cattle, wives and children.

GE 6:11-17, 7:11-24 God is unhappy with the wickedness of man and decides to do something about it. He kills every living thing on the face of the earth other than Noah's family and thereby makes himself the greatest mass murderer in history.

GE 19:26 God personally sees to it that Lot's wife is turned to a pillar of salt (for having looked behind her while fleeing the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah).

GE 38:9 "... whenever he lay with his brother's wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from producing offspring for his brother. What he did was wicked ..., so the Lord put him to death."

EX 2:12 Moses murders an Egyptian.

EX 7:1, 14, 9:14-16, 10:1-2, 11:7 The purpose of the devastation that God brings to the Egyptians is as follows:
to show that he is Lord;
to show that there is none like him in all the earth;
to show his great power;
to cause his name to be declared throughout the earth;
to give the Israelites something to talk about with their children;
to show that he makes a distinction between Israel and Egypt.

EX 9:22-25 A plague of hail from the Lord strikes down everything in the fields of Egypt both man and beast except in Goshen where the Israelites reside.

EX 12:29 The Lord kills all the first-born in the land of Egypt.

EX 17:13 With the Lord's approval, Joshua mows down Amalek and his people.

EX 21:20-21 With the Lord's approval, a slave may be beaten to death with no punishment for the perpetrator as long as the slave doesn't die too quickly.

EX 32:27 "Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbor.

EX 32:27-29 With the Lord's approval, the Israelites slay 3000 men.

LE 26:7-8 The Lord promises the Israelites that, if they are obedient, their enemies will "fall before your sword."

LE 26:22 "I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children."

LE 26:29, DT 28:53, JE 19:9, EZ 5:8-10 As a punishment, the Lord will cause people to eat the flesh of their own sons and daughters and fathers and friends.

LE 27:29 Human sacrifice is condoned. (Note: An example is given in JG 11:30-39)

NU 11:33 The Lord smites the people with a great plague.

NU 12:1-10 God makes Miriam a leper for seven days because she and Aaron had spoken against Moses.

NU 15:32-36 A Sabbath breaker (who had gathered sticks for a fire) is stoned to death at the Lord's command.

NU 16:27-33 The Lord causes the earth to open and swallow up the men and their households (including wives and children) because the men had been rebellious.

NU 16:35 A fire from the Lord consumes 250 men.

NU 16:49 A plague from the Lord kills 14,700 people.

NU 21:3 The Israelites utterly destroy the Canaanites.

NU 21:6 Fiery serpents, sent by the Lord, kill many Israelites.

NU 21:35 With the Lord's approval, the Israelites slay Og "... and his sons and all his people, until there was not one survivor left ...."

NU 25:4 (KJV) "And the Lord said unto Moses, take all the heads of the people, and hang them up before the Lord against the sun ...."

NU 25:8 "He went after the man of Israel into the tent, and thrust both of them through, the man of Israel, and the woman through her belly."

NU 25:9 24,000 people die in a plague from the Lord.

NU 31:9 The Israelites capture Midianite women and children.

NU 31:17-18 Moses, following the Lord's command, orders the Israelites to kill all the Midianite male children and "... every woman who has known man ...." (Note: How would it be determined which women had known men? One can only speculate.)

NU 31:31-40 32,000 virgins are taken by the Israelites as booty. Thirty-two are set aside (to be sacrificed?) as a tribute for the Lord.

DT 2:33-34 The Israelites utterly destroy the men, women, and children of Sihon.

DT 3:6 The Israelites utterly destroy the men, women, and children of Og.

DT 7:2 The Lord commands the Israelites to "utterly destroy" and shown "no mercy" to those whom he gives them for defeat.

DT 20:13-14 "When the Lord delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the males .... As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves."

DT 20:16 "In the cities of the nations the Lord is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes."

DT 21:10-13 With the Lord's approval, the Israelites are allowed to take "beautiful women" from the enemy camp to be their captive wives. If, after sexual relations, the husband has "no delight" in his wife, he can simply let her go.

DT 28:53 "You will eat the fruit of the womb, the flesh of the sons and daughters the Lord your God has given you."

JS 1:1-9, 18 Joshua receives the Lord's blessing for all the bloody endeavors to follow.

JS 6:21-27 With the Lord's approval, Joshua destroys the city of Jericho men, women, and children with the edge of the sword.

JS 7:19-26 Achan, his children and his cattle are stoned to death because Achan had taken a taboo thing.

JS 8:22-25 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly smites the people of Ai, killing 12,000 men and women, so that there were none who escaped.

JS 10:10-27 With the help of the Lord, Joshua utterly destroys the Gibeonites.

JS 10:28 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the people of Makkedah.

JS 10:30 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the Libnahites.

JS 10:32-33 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the people of Lachish.

JS 10:34-35 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the Eglonites.

JS 10:36-37 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the Hebronites.

JS 10:38-39 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the Debirites.

JS 10:40 (A summary statement.) "So Joshua defeated the whole land ...; he left none remaining, but destroyed all that breathed, as the Lord God of Israel commanded."

JS 11:6 The Lord orders horses to be hamstrung. (Exceedingly cruel.)

JS 11:8-15 "And the lord gave them into the hand of Israel, ...utterly destroying them; there was none left that breathed ...."

JS 11:20 "For it was the Lord's doing to harden their hearts that they should come against Israel in battle, in order that they should be utterly destroyed, and should receive no mercy but be exterminated, as the Lord commanded Moses."

JS 11:21-23 Joshua utterly destroys the Anakim.

JG 1:4 With the Lord's support, Judah defeats 10,000 Canaanites at Bezek.

JG 1:6 With the Lord's approval, Judah pursues Adoni-bezek, catches him, and cuts off his thumbs and big toes.

JG 1:8 With the Lord's approval, Judah smites Jerusalem.

JG 1:17 With the Lord's approval, Judah and Simeon utterly destroy the Canaanites who inhabited Zephath.

JG 3:29 The Israelites kill about 10,000 Moabites.

JG 3:31 (A restatement.) Shamgar killed 600 Philistines with an oxgoad.

JG 4:21 Jael takes a tent stake and hammers it through the head of Sisera, fastening it to the ground.

JG 7:19-25 The Gideons defeat the Midianites, slay their princes, cut off their heads, and bring the heads back to Gideon.

JG 8:15-21 The Gideons slaughter the men of Penuel.

JG 9:5 Abimalech murders his brothers.

JG 9:45 Abimalech and his men kill all the people in the city.

JG 9:53-54 "A woman dropped a stone on his head and cracked his skull. Hurriedly he called to his armor-bearer, 'Draw your sword and kill me, so that they can't say a woman killed me.' So his servant ran him through, and he died."

JG 11:29-39 Jepthah sacrifices his beloved daughter, his only child, according to a vow he has made with the Lord.

JG 14:19 The Spirit of the Lord comes upon a man and causes him to slay thirty men.

JG 15:15 Samson slays 1000 men with the jawbone of an ass.

JG 16:21 The Philistines gouge out Samson's eyes.

JG 16:27-30 Samson, with the help of the Lord, pulls down the pillars of the Philistine house and causes his own death and that of 3000 other men and women.

JG 18:27 The Danites slay the quiet and unsuspecting people of Laish.

JG 19:22-29 A group of sexual depraved men beat on the door of an old man's house demanding that he turn over to them a male house guest. Instead, the old man offers his virgin daughter and his guest's concubine (or wife): "Behold, here are my virgin daughter and his concubine; let me bring them out now. Ravish them and do with them what seems good to you; but against this man do not do so vile a thing." The man's concubine is ravished and dies. The man then cuts her body into twelve pieces and sends one piece to each of the twelve tribes of Israel.

JG 20:43-48 The Israelites smite 25,000+ "men of valor" from amongst the Benjamites, "men and beasts and all that they found," and set their towns on fire.

JG 21:10-12 "... Go and smite the inhabitants of Jabesh-gilead with the edge of the sword and; also the women and little ones.... every male and every woman that has lain with a male you shall utterly destroy." They do so and find four hundred young virgins whom they bring back for their own use.

1SA 4:10 The Philistines slay 30,000 Israelite foot soldiers.

1SA 5:6-9 The Lord afflicts the Philistines with tumors in their "secret parts," presumably for having stolen the Ark.

1SA 6:19 God kills seventy men (or so) for looking into the Ark (at him?). (Note: The early Israelites apparently thought the Ark to be God's abode.)

1SA 7:7-11 Samuel and his men smite the Philistines.

1SA 11:11 With the Lord's blessing, Saul and his men cut down the Ammonites.

1SA 14:31 Jonathan and his men strike down the Philistines.

but wait there's more......please explain? List of 18 doesn't really cover it. 

 Congrats for a good topic!

1SA 14:48 Saul smites the Amalekites.

1SA 15:3, 7-8 "This is what the Lord says: Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass ....' And Saul ... utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword."

1SA 15:33 "Samuel hewed Agag in pieces before the Lord ...."

1SA 18:7 The women sing as they make merry: "Saul has slain his thousands and David his ten thousands."

1SA 18:27 David murders 200 Philistines, then cuts off their foreskins.

1SA 30:17 David smites the Amalekites.

2SA 2:23 Abner kills Asahel.

2SA 3:30 Joab and Abishai kill Abner.

2SA 4:7-8 Rechan and Baanah kill Ish-bosheth, behead him, and take his head to David.

2SA 4:12 David has Rechan and Baanah killed, their hands and feet cut off, and their bodies hanged by the pool at Hebron.

2SA 5:25 "And David did as the Lord commanded him, and smote the Philistines ...."

2SA 6:2-23 Because she rebuked him for having exposed himself, Michal (David's wife) was barren throughout her life.

2SA 8:1-18 (A listing of some of David's murderous conquests.)

2SA 8:4 David hamstrung all but a few of the horses.

2SA 8:5 David slew 22,000 Syrians.

2SA 8:6, 14 "The Lord gave victory to David wherever he went."

2SA 8:13 David slew 18,000 Edomites in the valley of salt and made the rest slaves.

2SA 10:18 David slew 47,000+ Syrians.

2SA 11:14-27 David has Uriah killed so that he can marry Uriah's wife, Bathsheba.

2SA 12:1, 19 The Lord strikes David's child dead for the sin that David has committed.

2SA 13:1-15 Amnon loves his sister Tamar, rapes her, then hates her.

2SA 13:28-29 Absalom has Amnon murdered.

2SA 18:6 -7 20,000 men are slaughtered at the battle in the forest of Ephraim.

2SA 18:15 Joab's men murder Absalom.

2SA 20:10-12 Joab's men murder Amasa and leave him "... wallowing in his own blood in the highway. And anyone who came by, seeing him, stopped."

2SA 24:15 The Lord sends a pestilence on Israel that kills 70,000 men.

1KI 2:24-25 Solomon has Adonijah murdered.

1KI 2:29-34 Solomon has Joab murdered.

1KI 2:46 Solomon has Shime-i murdered.

1KI 13:15-24 A man is killed by a lion for eating bread and drinking water in a place where the Lord had previously told him not to. This is in spite of the fact that the man had subsequently been lied to by a prophet who told the man that an angel of the Lord said that it would be alright to eat and drink there.

1KI 20:29-30 The Israelites smite 100,000 Syrian soldiers in one day. A wall falls on 27,000 remaining Syrians.

2KI 1:10-12 Fire from heaven comes down and consumes fifty men.

2KI 2:23-24 Forty-two children are mauled and killed, presumably according to the will of God, for having jeered at a man of God.

2KI 5:27 Elisha curses Gehazi and his descendants forever with leprosy.

2KI 6:18-19 The Lord answers Elisha's prayer and strikes the Syrians with blindness. Elisha tricks the blind Syrians and leads them to Samaria.

2KI 6:29 "So we cooked my son and ate him. The next day I said to her, 'Give up your son so we may eat him,' but she had hidden him."

2KI 9:24 Jehu tricks and murders Joram.

2KI 9:27 Jehu has Ahaziah killed.

2KI 9:30-37 Jehu has Jezebel killed. Her body is trampled by horses. Dogs eat her flesh so that only her skull, feet, and the palms of her hands remain.

2KI 10:7 Jehu has Ahab's seventy sons beheaded, then sends the heads to their father.

2KI 10:14 Jehu has forty-two of Ahab's kin killed.

2KI 10:17 "And when he came to Samaria, he slew all that remained to Ahab in Samaria, till he had wiped them out, according to the word of the Lord ...."

2KI 10:19-27 Jehu uses trickery to massacre the Baal worshippers.

2KI 11:1 Athaliah destroys all the royal family.

2KI 14:5, 7 Amaziah kills his servants and then 10,000 Edomites.

2KI 15:3-5 Even though he did what was right in the eyes of the Lord, the Lord smites Azariah with leprosy for not having removed the "high places."

2KI 15:16 Menahem ripped open all the women who were pregnant.

2KI 19:35 An angel of the Lord kills 185,000 men.

1CH 20:3 (KJV) "And he brought out the people that were in it, and cut them with saws, and with harrows of iron, and with axes."

2CH 13:17 500,000 Israelites are slaughtered.

2CH 21:4 Jehoram slays all his brothers.

PS 137:9 Happy will be the man who dashes your little ones against the stones.

PS 144:1 God is praised as the one who trains hands for war and fingers for battle.

IS 13:15 "Everyone who is captured will be thrust through; all who are caught will fall by the sword. Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their ... wives will be ravished."

IS 13:18 "Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eye shall not spare children."

IS 14:21-22 "Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers."

IS 49:26 The Lord will cause the oppressors of the Israelite's to eat their own flesh and to become drunk on their own blood as with wine.

JE 16:4 "They shall die grievous deaths; they shall not be lamented; neither shall they be buried; but they shall be as dung upon the face of the earth: and they shall be consumed by the sword, and by famine; and their carcasses shall be meat for the fowls of heaven, and for the beasts of the earth."

LA 4:9-10 "Those slain by the sword are better off than those who die of famine; racked with hunger, they waste away for lack of food. ... pitiful women have cooked their own children, who became their food ..."

EZ 6:12-13 The Lord says: "... they will fall by the sword, famine and plague. He that is far away will die of the plague, and he that is near will fall by the sword, and he that survives and is spared will die of famine. So will I spend my wrath upon them. And they will know I am the Lord, when the people lie slain among their idols around their altars, on every high hill and on all the mountaintops, under every spreading tree and every leafy oak ...."

EZ 9:4-6 The Lord commands: "... slay old men outright, young men and maidens, little children and women ...."

EZ 20:26 In order that he might horrify them, the Lord allowed the Israelites to defile themselves through, amongst other things, the sacrifice of their first-born children.

EZ 21:3-4 The Lord says that he will cut off both the righteous and the wicked that his sword shall go against all flesh.

EZ 23:25, 47 God is going to slay the sons and daughters of those who were whores.

EZ 23:34 "You shall ... pluck out your hair, and tear your breasts."

HO 13:16 "They shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up."

MI 3:2-3 "... who pluck off their skin ..., and their flesh from off their bones; Who also eat the flesh of my people, and flay their skin from off them; and they break their bones, and chop them in pieces, as for the pot, and as flesh within the caldron."

MT 3:12, 8:12, 10:21, 13:30, 42, 22:13, 24:51, 25:30, LK 13:28, JN 5:24 Some will spend eternity burning in Hell. There will be weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth.

MT 10:21 "... the brother shall deliver up his brother to death, and the father his child, ... children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death."

MT 10:35-36 "For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law a man's enemies will be the members of his own family."

MT 11:21-24 Jesus curses [the inhabitants of] three cities who were not sufficiently impressed with his great works.

AC 13:11 Paul purposefully blinds a man (though not permanently).

Reply to : Anonymous

But, what if God is all of the things you say He is? (and damn! I forgot to look at your nick again LOL - Ned Flanders Avatar guy).

I certainly am not saying He is... because I believe he is not.. but if he is what exactly does that mean?

Does that mean you would still intentionally turn away from Him even if he is truth.. just because you don't agree with his methods?

Well to put it simply, you overlook the contradictions.  If we were discussing the God of the Muslims or the Mormons, I bet you would not hesitate to dismiss him outright based on the contradictions in the Book or Mormon or the Koran.  And yet you make excuses for the Christian God because he is YOUR God.  I know because I used to do the same thing: fall back on the "His ways are higher than our ways" argument and allow God to transgress his own laws and/or charachter.  It's not an honest way of dealing with the bible accounts.

You being the created - challenging the Creator?

Again, you argue from the supposition that the Xian God is true.  Perhaps we need to challenge a created God.  A God created in the image of the ancient Israelites and more recently reinterpreted to look more like the modern fundamentalists.

It is not stupidity to look at God the way I do. It is not burying my head in the sand. I just choose to see things from a different perspective than you.

I never called you stupid.  Please re-read my posts.  I said that some claim to be too stupid (ie unabale to fathom) to understand the ways of 'the Lord'.  And I agree, we do look at it from different perspectives.  You from one of unquestioning belief and I from one questioning sincerity.

What if you are wrong?

Well, what if you are wrong?  Does that question spring to mind for you?  I NEVER worried about it a Revivalist or in the AOG and in retrospect I was wrong both times.  I don't claim to be right.  I just find the evidence points this way now.

You are on this website, and you could be turning people away from God. What if God is a Loving God who only wants the best for us, and you are turning people away from him?

Well then if this is the case then your God is impotent and not omnipotent.  I am sure the fundamentalist God gets along quite well in saving people from the fires of hell inspite of me.  Isn't  it God's will that none should perish?  I am sure I don't mess up his plans.  Anyone with a fundamentalists bent will ignore what I have to say anyway.

What if you have made some very miscontrued interpretations of what is written?

Then I am mistaken.  And what about you?

My point is, We can't see things from Gods perspective. We don't always know what he is doing or why he is doing it. It is more than possible for us to take things the wrong way. If you accept that God is a greater intelligence than us, then it would just be silly to assume you know everything that he is doing.

I understand your point.  But if we apply your logic to a discovery of the 'truth' about the gods of different religions (ie Mormons, Islam, Hinduism) according to their books then there is nothing to stop us accepting them as true as well.  If we read of their gods doing something attrocious or the like, then we must say his ways are higher than ours and accept that god.  Again, this argument is not acceptable or else all religions are true.

Reply to : Anonymous

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Right. I can see your point about other religions.However, I guess it then comes down to personal experiences. I have never been a Revivalist.. I am a member of the AOG church thoughAnyhow - I became a Christian 6 years ago in May. Before then I was a New Age spiritualist. Psychics, tarot cards, spiritual healings -

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My experience was similar. I was into all of the above plus astrology, the I-Ching, Hare Krishna movement, Buddism, Nostradamus etc. I had undiagnosed VD and was going insane. In the Hare Krsna temple on day I cried out to God that I wanted him and didn't know where to go. One day I decided to read Revelation to try and figure out how much time we had left. The various Indian religions I was involved in said it would take 7 years of yoga and meditation to 'make it'. I didn't expect to live that long.

Anyway I didn't figure out how long we had - I didn't even relate what I was reading to Christianity. I just saw God's servants would be sealed. I said , "God, I want to be your servant. What's this seal?" Then I saw who was going to hell and knew in my heart it was true and it was me. I had never heard of TRF, GRC, RCI, AoG, CoC etc. No one had ever told me anything much about Christianity. I just wanted forgiveness for the many sins I'd committed. Rev 21:8 looked like the story of my life.

I fell on my face alone in the room and cried out to God to forgive me. For the next few months that's all I could think of. Someone in the then ARC dropped a flyer in our letterbox. I went to the meeting. I saw an aquaintance there whose lifestyle/experience was similar to mine. This time he looked like an angel.  He told me he'd been baptized and filled with the Spirit, and spoken in tongues. I thought wow. Tongues sounds heaps better than the endless repetitions I was using in the Hare Krsna group. I went to the Vogue the next  Sunday and heard a talk about Rev 13. I was defensive. I said, "God, if they criticise my religion I'll never come back." I was cynical about Christianity anyway and wasn't worried about the message per se. (I was an evolution freak in teacher's college and thought Christians were nuts anyway) I had no intention of becomnig a Christian.

At the end I decided to go to the front. I thought I'll just get baptized, get the Holy Spirit and never come back. I had every intention of continuing in my religions. At the front I was told to praise God and say Hallelujah. I thought that sounded easier than 7 years of meditation. I said Hallelujah and spoke in tongues. And unlike some people here who knock it - I knew that was Jesus Christ. It was not Shiva, Buddha, Krsna or Allah. I thought my whole life I rejected Jesus Christ and everything the Bible says about him is true. I was healed on the spot of VD and every fear I had was gone.

I witnessed to my friends. Not because I was ordered to by Kuhlmann or anyone else but because I was so excited about finally finding the truth. I had bad experiences with people but I'm never going to let go of what God gave me. That was more than 1/2 my life ago and it still excites me. My kids witness to their friends because they've discovered the thrill of seeing someone born again. Why is the Church growing so fast in Africa and Asia?

I'm not in the ARC or any of the above anymore. ALL the churches have problems. Control is not unique to any group, Christian or otherwise. It is a common condition of a fallen human race. Anyone can be deceived. I have been on several occasions but I trust Christ now to show me when I'm wrong never mind everyone else. The world will be convinced when Christians love each other. Bickering and splitting was the result of a twisted personality that always hated God and man.The sad thing about all this is your witness has been crippled.

Incidentally Troy. I used to swear something chronic. I saw within 3 days of becoming a Christian that foul language would only turn people off. 

that sounds like a bet

isn't gambling a sin?

What are your odds 50/50 - what about the real cost.

It would only be mathematically correct to believe in god if the expected benefit was greater then the expected cost. So lets look at the cost/benefit analysis:

Expected Benefit = V * P1 * P2

...where V = Value of everlasting life or heaven
P1 = Probability that god exists
P2 = Probablility that god will invite you to experience heaven

Expected Cost = TC + PC + S/n

... where TC = the cost of your time consumed by religious activity
PC = the psychological cost of having to suspend disbelief in supernatural beings for your whole life
S/n = the total Suffering caused by religious beliefs over the millenia, divided by the number of believers in history (i.e. your share of the cost of all the suffering - it's only fair that you bear your share).


Now, let's run some numbers:

Even if V were a big number, P1 must be small, since there are no verifiable historical occurences proving god's existence. Let's say everlasting life is worth $10 million in present value to you and P1 is estimated at 0.1%. Your chances of actually making it to heaven are no better than 50/50; let's face it, you masturbated a lot as a teenager and you would shag Heather Graham without a moment's hesitation if you had the chance, so it doesn't matter how many cookies you baked for the church bake-a-thon.

So the Expected Benefit is : $10 million * 0.1% * 50% = $5,000

Not bad, I guess - would get you a decent flat screen TV.

Now let's look at the cost.

TC = say, $50 per hour * 2 hours of church per week * 50 years of piety = $260,000

PC = incalculable, but the medical insurance would cost you around $40,000 for your lifetime.

S = total cost of wars and suffering is probably equal to a few good tsunamis, lets say conservatively five times the cost of the recent one, which the UN recons is going to cost $30 billion. So, S = $150 billion

n = number of religious people in history. Estimated to be 95% of all humans who ever lived, which totals around 10 billion, according to Carl Sagan. So, n = 9.5 billion.

Total Expected Cost therefore = $260,000 + $40,000 + $150/9.5 = $300,015

I've said this recently... "What scripture do people refer to when they say that gambling is a sin!"? I don't think it's a sin per ce. I think throwing your money away is stupid and in a strange way fun.. but not sinful.

My money's on God, however, and although I've got to be a bit miffed at some of the learning experiences he has allowed me to endure, he has proved himself to me with enough 'coincidences' to take off the 'coincidence' labelling.

Generally, I love the Christian lifestyle. My friends aren't sleazy foul mouthed people sustaining superficial relationships (re: many of my family members). The ethics and morals in the Christian way... the bible way... are a winning formula in my children's lives. Yep, my bets on God. Chances are my kids will avoid the drug culture; the messiness of casual sex; the lonliness of superficiality and materialism; the suffocation of legalistic churches etc. Some may be offended that I brand 'worldly' life in this way... but I'm calling it as I see it folks.

Some people who don't believe in the bible seem to love believing in the negative scriptures. Athough, I get you point that you are refuting the supposed perfection of the word.  The death of babies etc is a horrendous thing... but I think the death of 120 people is also unacceptable. God doesn't limit His vision to our short stint on Earth. He sees way passed that, to the age of ages. Perhaps, that is where our perspective is challenged and our judgement of God is compromised. Perhaps the death of Israel's enemies is balanced in the time when all knees shall bow and all will be reckoned (this is a universalist concept but one I lean to).

Blessings.

However, I guess it then comes down to personal experiences.

And your personal experiences are subjective and I am unable to share in them as they were YOURS.  But by the same token, I cannot argue against them for the same reasons.

I have never been a Revivalist.. I am a member of the AOG church though

Well, as far as experiences, I was an AOG pastor-in-training and have a few of my own experiences to report about my years in the AOG.  Go ahead and ask about them if you want. 

Now these are only a few things that have happened. Now you could probably rationalise it in some other way - and try to explain it some different way.. but to me this is unmistakable. I know what I felt. I know what happened. It was a personal experience, and I wasn't brain washed (I am a very strong willed and stubborn lady!).

To me - this all proved to me that I am on the right path by God.. because I asked him to put me on it, I didn't ask him to make me a Christian - I just asked him to put me on the right path by him. This is why I do not believe the other religions are correct.

Again, I cannot argue against your experiences at all as they are yours.  But let me tell you a story told to me by a leader of a Mormon church in Melbourne.  He told me that whilst living in Holland as a young adult he found himself hungry to know God.  He prayed sincerely one day that God reveal Himself and asked God to show him which church is true.  That afternoon two Mormon missionaries turned up at his door and shared their religion with him.  He was amazed to find out that Jospeh Smith, the founder of Mormonism, had asked God the same thing and God spoke to him and led him to found the Mormon church.  The guy then told me that he was struck by a sense of God and joined the Mormon church.  he had been a member for well over 20 years when I met him and was a leader in his local ward.

My point here is that to a Mormon, his testimony is encouraging to them as it lends weight to their own faith.  But to a Christian, it is 'quite obviously' the work of Satan.  Do you understand what I am trying to say here?  You have a series of events which you have interpreted as divine providence and I did the same with my 'testimony' as a Pentecostal (mine was quite 'amazing' too). This is an interpretation of events, not necessarily the correct one though.  Imagine if the Mormon guy later came to an Evangelical Christian faith.  He would then completely reinterpret his  experience with the Mormon missionaries in Holland.  Instead fo seeing God behind it, he would see the devil.  It is all a matter of interpretation, not necessarily dvine providence.

If all this has proved to you that you are on the 'right path' then be happy with that and leave this room for those of us who don't share your convictions. 

Add to that the many many times he has come through for me in my life and my own personal experience tells me there is no way I can deny him - ever.

I said that once upon a time.  But I have found that since leaving church, life has gone better for me than when I was in Church.  it seems in churchlife, when things go well, God is blessing you and when things go bad then the devil is attacking you or God is testing you.  All the bases are covered either way.  I have come to believe more in chance and more in the randomness of life.  Sometimes life is kind and other times life is harsh.  But this is a universal human experience, not evidence of God's plan for our lives.

Add to that the many Bible verses that do back up my beliefs, ie/ Isaiah 51 describing Jesus.. the many prophesies that have been fulfilled (many more than Nostradamus prophesies).. you can find evidence of Jesus all through the old testament - and obviously new testament. But you look at the story of Abraham that was going to kill his son for God.. but God then said no, kill the lamb instead (that incidently was caught in a thorn bush).. There are just too many things for me to be able to deny him.

Have you sincerely looked at the 'other side of the coin'?  Have you had a look at what the critics of the Christian interpretation of those passages have to say?  A lot of it is written by people who once had a faith JUST LIKE YOURS.  regarding the prophecies, I suggest you take the time to read these articles below.  Please don't shrug these off.  Take some time and really read them.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_lippard/fabulous-prophecies.html

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/farrell_till/prophecy.html

I know that there are some things that I can not explain, I know that there are some things that seem a bit different... But what I have experienced tells me that God is a loving God - and I basically trust that even though I may not understand some things - that I will understand them one day.

You know what, even though I am not a Christian, I too know that there are some things I cannot explain.  And i too believe that God is a loving God.  I too desire to trust him even though I may not understand some things - even if I may never understand them. 

I am not arguing against the existence of God but against the Bible and the exclusivity of the Christian religion.

Well - if I am wrong I am not hurting anyone, and I will live 70 years in ignorant bliss and then fade into oblivion.

But - if I am right - then I will spend my 70 years in well informed bliss - and then live for eternity in bliss and not fade into oblivion

Well, my time in the Revival Centres certainly screwed me over and then this was compounded by my time in the AOG.  I have many ex-AOG friends who were screwed up by them as well.  I don't think it is as simple as you say.  I believe that fundamnetalist religion actually stunts one's personal growth and limits your potential and ability to experience all that life has to offer.  But that's another post I think.

Reply to : Merry Menagerie

Well that's right if Christianity is wrong then we will just live and probably drive ourselves crazy trying to find the meaning of life only to die and be wiped from existence.

Oh come on Merry.  There are billions of non-Christians throughout the earth and most of them don't fit your profile above.  (Please don't make a list of evil pagans or I will make one of evil Christians. )  I don't feel I fit your profile either.  And not believing in Christianity doesn't mean there is no God at all.  Don't build a straw man only to knock it down.

If Christianity is right then we will live knowing what our destiny holds and then die with the full knowledge that we will rise again to live in eternity. I'd rather take my chances with Christianity.

And if it is wrong then you may (stress on 'may') have wasted your life and spent your life wrestling with unnecessary guilt and shame.  Don't tell me you haven't wrestled with that as a Christian.

Reply to : WonbyONe

My friends aren't sleazy foul mouthed people sustaining superficial relationships (re: many of my family members).

Either are mine, and most of my friends aren't Christians.  What's your point?  Us and Them seems to be alive and well in your worldview.  In fact, many of the people I knew in church were superficial and expressing a pretense of 'victory' to others in their church lives.  Not as bad as the RCI, but not as real as it could have been all the same.  As I said before, most of my AOG friends were internally wrestling with guilt and shame at not measuring up to God's standards, even though they talked a lot about grace and forgiveness.

The ethics and morals in the Christian way... the bible way... are a winning formula in my children's lives.

I agree.  In fact, they are right in line with those that still undergird our society.  Ever heard of the Judeo-Christian Ethic?  Well, it works well enough for the West to use them for millenia.  But there are many other ethical and moral models that work just as well for societies.  But I digress.  I agree with you and I plan to teach my kids a morality very similar to yours. 

Yep, my bets on God. Chances are my kids will avoid the drug culture; the messiness of casual sex; the lonliness of superficiality and materialism; the suffocation of legalistic churches etc.

That's bullshit!!!  If I had a dollar for every Christian kid I knew who got into that stuff behind his/her parents' backs then I would be a rich man.  Reality check man.  Seriously.

Some may be offended that I brand 'worldly' life in this way... but I'm calling it as I see it folks.

Sure, and I appreciate that.  You wouldn't call it any other way .  But you see it wrong.

I'm not in the ARC or any of the above anymore. ALL the churches have problems.

Amen to that.  HUGE problems...like their belief in a 1st century Israeli messiah.

Do you go to church now?  If so, what problems does your current church have?  Can you identify any of them for us?

Incidentally Troy. I used to swear something chronic. I saw within 3 days of becoming a Christian that foul language would only turn people off. 

YOU HAVE NO IDEA HOW MUCH I WANTED TO SWEAR IN THIS REPLY OUT OF A REACTION TO YOUR COMMENTS!!!  But I realised then I would be swearing for your benefit and not for my own.  It would also have been petty.  Scroll up though, I think I dropped a few up there.

This person has been posting a lot so for the sake of consistency I will place this message at the top of all their posts.  This way you can identify all their posts as theirs.  - RH
=======================================

Reply to : hojusaram

---

Can you identify any of them for us?

Yea we have. All the problems associated with life in this world. There is no church on earth that doesn't have problems. They're pretty much the same as every church.

YOU HAVE NO IDEA HOW MUCH I WANTED TO SWEAR IN THIS REPLY OUT OF A REACTION TO YOUR COMMENTS!!! But I realised then I would be swearing for your benefit and not for my own. It would also have been petty. Scroll up though, I think I dropped a few up there.

get a life. I read your posts - you were an AoG pastor, Now you say you go nowhere - you spend all your time writing critisicms for this forum -you swear. Are you still angry after how many years? you attack the Bible = it sounds like you're out to destroy what little faith some people have after leaving the RCI and etc. I read some of your stuff on the cultweb site years ago and was not helped. I left the RCs anyway.

---

get a life.

Got one.  How about you?

I read your posts - you were an AoG pastor,

Yes, I was an AOG pastor-in-training.  I was the assistant pastor of Geelong AOG and later led a church planting team under the Australian Churches of Christ.

Now you say you go nowhere

I don't go to church., but I am going somewhere.

- you spend all your time writing critisicms for this forum

No, the only 'contact' you have with me is on this forum.  I go to work, go shopping, spend time with my wife, watch tv, hang around with friends, study Chinese, study a Master's degree and read a lot.

-you swear.

You picked that up huh?  Am I suupposed to feel bad about that?  Well, I don't. 

Are you still angry after how many years?

At who?  The RCI?  Hardly.  At the AOG?  Yeah, a bit, but not as bad as this time last year.  What time frame do you suggest is necessary for me to process my emotions?  Of course, you know the whole story so I expect you are well equipped to give me a deadline.

you attack the Bible

No, I point out the inconsistencies and contradictions in the Bible.  They are there after all.  You think the Bible can't handle it?  Geez, not saying much for the supposed 'word of God' then is it?

it sounds like you're out to destroy what little faith some people have after leaving the RCI and etc.

No, as a matter of fact I a not.  It sounds like you can't handle the fact that someone criticises your faith.  Is it that precarious?  It also sounds like you feel threatened by someone who believed as you did and now claims that the belief system is flawed.  Perhaps you are not as far away from the GRC/RCI/RF mindset as you would like to think.

I read some of your stuff on the cultweb site years ago and was not helped.

Really?   And I wrote it just for you an all!!!  How I wasted my time seeing as you didn't get helped by it.  Listen sweetheart, although you are the centre of your own existence, you ain't at the centre of mine. 

I left the RCs anyway

Praise the Lord!!! 

Now piss off back to the Christian Room and leave me to talk about what matters to us non-Christians.

Reply to : Merry Menagerie

---

I realise that I, being a christian, shouldn't be in here. If you want to continue with any discussion with me then you have to do it elsewhere. This is the wrong place for it. This room is for non-christians to sit around to tear up christianity and the bible. So go right ahead.Bye

---

Well, yes - yes I have. I use to be one of them. As I mentioned earlier, I did not grow up in a Christian home. I grew up believing in God though (I attended Catholic schools). I also grew up believing in the Bible (even though I had no idea what it was) - until I was in high school.

I argued against a lot of it myself. A mere history book that represented the events of the time, with some fabrication.

This is why I believe I have such a strong faith. I was on the other side of the coin. So I have a completely different perspective.

Well, that's not quite what I meant.  I meant, have you had a look at what the published critics of Christianity have to say?  I am not just talking about Fred down the street who rants and raves about the Christians up the road.  It's ok if you don't want to, but if you do then pop on in to:

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/theism/christianity/index.shtml

Since becomming a Christian, and witnessing a number of different things within the Church. And meeting many Christians. It appears that the ones who are strongest in faith, are those who HAVE not been a Christian. In my experience, those who grew up in Christian homes, are more likely to turn away - even for a short time. When they come back they are very strong in their faith though.

Well that can be xplained away easily enough.  Those who change their whole lives for thier new found faith have more of an emotional investment and so are more firm in their convictions.  But what of those who walk away and don't come back?  There are millions of them alive right now.  What about them?

Yep. Some Churches do the wrong thing. It is very unfortunate that the experience you have had has tainted your view. Very unfortunate.

Well, although I cannot deny that my experience has made me who I am, I would like to think that you at least examine what I have to say based on its own merits.  Please don't dismiss my thoughts based on the, "Oh he's just hurt" rule.  But then again, I would have done the same when I was a funamentalist so i can't be too harsh on you.

Well, that is your belief. I have a completely different view - as once again, I have had a different experience. You see, for me.. I was on a downward spiral. Many unfortunate things happened to me and my life was in utter chaos. I was a mess, and very hurt. 

Let me answer with a cut and paste.  I hope you can wade through this one...

Fundamentalism is in love with a single and common story it never tires of telling. This story is the key to the nature of the transformation it celebrates and the absolute split that transformation produces. A subject finds itself lost in a world of sin, prey to all the evils that have taken control of one's life. A despair seizes the soul. One is powerless to deal with one's problems or heal oneself because there is nothing within the self that one can draw on to make that project possible. The inner world is a foul and pestilent congregation of sin and sinfulness. And there's no way out. One has hit rock bottom and (so the story goes when it's told best) teeters on the brink of suicide. And then in darkest night one lets Him into one's life. And all is transformed. Changed utterly. A terrible beauty is born. Before one was a sinner doing the bidding of Satan. Now one is saved and does the work of the Lord. The old self is extinguished. Utterly. One has achieved a new identity, a oneness with Christ that persists as long as one follows one condition: one must let him take over one's life. Totally. All decisions are now in Jesus' hands. He tells one what to do and one's fealty to his plan must be absolute. There can be no questioning, no doubt. For that would be the sign of only one thing-the voice of Satan and with it the danger of slipping back into those ways of being that one has, through one's conversion, put an end to forever. The person or self one once was is no more so complete is the power of conversion. A psyche has been delivered from itself. And it's all so simple finally, a matter of delivering oneself into His will, of following His plan as set forth in the Book and of letting nothing be within oneself but the voice of Jesus spreading peace and love throughout one's being.  

...The power of conversion to produce a saved self makes the Catholic confessional the operation of rank amateurs. There through forgiveness one gets temporary relief from sins that in all likelihood both priest and penitent know one will commit again. One gets a momentarily cleansed psyche but not a lasting transformation. Through conversion, however, one achieves an absolutely new beginning. One's life is divided in half. Split between B.C. and A.D. Everything one once was is washed away. Everything one now is is its antithesis....Self-analysis is based on the recognition that there is no deliverance from desire and inner conflict. Satan, in contrast, is the blank check that puts an end to that process before it can begin. Consider the contrast between two statements. " I was a lustful man and a fornicator who worshipped the Beast within me." "I was a man who hated women and used sex to injure them psychologically in order to feed the emotional conflicts of my relationship with my mother." The difference between the two statements is enormous. The first obliterates the need for further description, exorcising the possibility of self-knowledge and genuine responsibility. The second is but the overture to the painful problem of taking on responsibility for every word of it.  

...Conversion is the flight from that action. The psyche is safely delivered into the hands of abstraction. One was under Satan's power when one did all those terrible things. That's how He works. He invades a soul like a thief in the night and under his power we do all sorts of things that are against our nature. But once we let Jesus in we are cleansed. Born again. All before was the work of an otherness that invaded us. It is now burnt and purged away. We can of course feel remorse but at the same time those we harmed should know it was not really our doing. The cause is not in ourselves but in the virus that invaded our soul.

...Psychoanalysis delivers the subject over to itself as the one relationship that cannot be transcended. Conversion delivers the subject from itself. What one was is not the depth of a disorder one must plumb concretely in the full horror of all one must come to know about oneself as author. It is rather all that one can blow away through one's conversion! Such is the power and pleasure of splitting as a mechanism of defense. In the absolute reliance on that mechanism fundamentalism renders up its secret.

http://www.counterpunch.org/davis01082005.html

First of all, Hojusaram, can I say how much I agreed with much of your posts.  Things like how some Christians will interpret everything they like as being God's guidance and direction and everything they don't as Satan's attack - this frustrates the hell out of me!  Or how the OT is rationalised by 'oh, but we're under the NT now'.  Or how people try to convert you because they feel in their hearts that it must be true - as if millions of Muslims/Hindus/atheists/PETA activists didn't feel exactly the same... When I was investigating God and all the rest I just couldn't find people who could deal with the subject RATIONALLY!!  I was very lucky, however, that eventually I came across a highly rational, refreshingly cerebral church where enough people really got it - they didn't dodge the hard issues or come up with pat answers... I especially liked your last quote, by the way - it expresses beautifully some of the objections I have to the way that some Xn denominations misrepresent the gospel.

The first thing that struck me about your argument about the OT is that you are playing fast and loose with it.  I think that understanding the OT is key to understanding Christianity, but unfortunately too many churches don't teach it much.  It's quite different in nature.  Most of the NT is either gospel or epistle, giving direct explanations and guidance.  Most of it is written by people who claim to be appointed by God to deliver this teaching, and they are delivering the teaching in written format, where they have time to formulate ideas and present arguments.  In other words, the NT teaching is difficult to contradict if you're a Christian - you either accept that the apostles were appointed by God and knew what they were talking about, or you reject their authority, in which case nothing they say can be trusted.  But the OT is quite, quite different.  Apart from Leviticus and Deutoronomy (and to a lesser extent Numbers) you don't really have passages where someone is laying down the rules for how you should behave.  Obviously those books are very explicitly God's commands.  But most of the OT is history - a record of what humans did and how God reacted.  If you treat the historical sections as though they are God's commands, then obviously there are deep problems - which is why that list from the beginning of this thread is kind of humorous on its own, but as a theological statement is ridiculous.  Obviously, hojusaram, you recognised that because when you were challenged by someone who went through and put them in their historical contexts, you conceded that large numbers of those passages simply did not say what the list said it did.  But this really underlines the point - you can't treat the OT like the NT.  Not because God has changed, but because the documents are different.

Then, because it's a history, I think you have to read it very, very carefully to make sure that you don't miss the point.  For instance, I note that you said:

---

Exodus repeats over and over again that "God hardened Pharaoh's heart." So God killed a lot of males who had no say in the matter of Israel's freedom (and we can only speculate how many Egyptians who sympathised with the Israelites died or lost someone that night) on account of the sin of one man. Not only that, but God caused Pharoah to resist Moses' pleas. Eery way you slice it, God acted attrociously.

---

Now, if you go back and look at the story, it's really interesting.   You're right that the Bible says that God hardened Pharaoh's heart: after the sixth plague (Ex 9:12), the eighth plauge (Ex 10:20), the ninth plague (Ex 10:27) and after Moses warns of the fatal tenth plague (Ex 11:10).  But the really interesting bit is in the first half of the story.  Because in these cases, it says either 'Pharaoh's heart was hard' (Ex 7:14; after the third plague at Ex 8:19; after the fith plague Ex 9:7) or 'Pharaoh hardened his heart' (after the second plague Ex 8:15; after the fourth plague Ex 8:32).  So you see there is a gradual progression, with someone who is hard of heart, who actively chooses to keep rejecting God and hardening his heart further, until finally God says, 'Right - you want to reject me, let's take you where you want to go.'  And God himself drives it on to its logical conclusion.  I think the most telling bit is right after the seventh plague where it says: 'But when Pharaoh saw [this] he sinned yet again and hardened his heart, he and his servants.  So the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, and he did not let the people of Israel go.'  Ex 9:34-5.  Which I think demonstrates that the earlier slightly ambiguous statements (Pharaoh's heart was hard) show that Pharaoh was in that way because of his own decisions, not because of an accident.  This then seems to me to chime perfectly with some statements in the NT: eg in Romans 1:24-26 Paul argues that the consequences of rejecting God is that God 'gives you over' to the sins that you desire, and this in itself is punishment.

Now this episode in itself is neither here nor there. I think Pharaoh did what he did because he chose to.  But God did allow it to happen, so you've still got plenty of ammunition against God for a while.  But the point I want to make is that these kinds of sweeping generalisations about the nature and character of God as revealed in the OT simply don't stand up to close scrutiny.  If you want to have a good go at God for stuff in the NT then you need to read the documents in a more sensible way and do some much more detailed work.  Don't worry - you still have some good material to work with: the genocide of the peoples in Canaan is excellent material for that purpose!!  But let's not waste time on straw men, hey?

I think it's not that hard, then, to deal with the majority of the points that you have raised - things like the use of slavery.  These things look appalling and they need to be carefully analysed and thought through.  But they're not that hard to deal with if you do some work on it.  The biggest problem, of all the ones we've touched on, is IMHO the slaughtering of the people in the land of Canaan which allows the Jews to take the promised land. 

The only other general point I'd like to add is that you are not really distinguishing between vengeance and punishment.  Punishment, ideally, should be retribution administered in response to wrongdoing.  It is the execution of justice, and justice is a good thing (if a little uncomfortable when applied too close to home).  (I'm assuming here that you don't entirely reject the idea of retributive justice, but if you want to have a talk about deterrence and distributive justice as well, I'm happy to launch into that.)  Vengeance suggests just lashing out in anger to hurt another person in response to a wrong done to you.  The end result may or may not be just on the offender.  But the motivation is always merely to hurt and cannot be justified.  By eliding these two concepts, it's very easy to paint the OT God as some mad, easily-offended superpower.  But we really need to consider carefully whether God is acting in pure vengeance or in justice.  And, of course, just because you're angry doesn't mean you are acting unjustly.  With my 4 year old, I try to act justly even when I'm angry.  Being human, I sometimes fail, but most of the time I manage it!  So when we read that God was angry and punished some people, that doesn't necessarily imply that God's actions were unjust.

I was very lucky, however, that eventually I came across a highly rational, refreshingly cerebral church where enough people really got it - they didn't dodge the hard issues or come up with pat answers... I especially liked your last quote, by the way - it expresses beautifully some of the objections I have to the way that some Xn denominations misrepresent the gospel.

Do you mid if I ask you which church you attend now and which country you are in?

it expresses beautifully some of the objections I have to the way that some Xn denominations misrepresent the gospel.

I understand what you are saying here.  But I felt the same way when in the Revival Centres and then again in the AOG and finally in South Melbourne restoration Community (Church of Christ).  The thing is, all subsections of the church (in most cases denominations) feel the same way about everyone else in the church.  The liberals feel that way about the fundys, the Pentecostals feel that way about the hardline Evangelicals, the left wing social justice churches feel that way about almost everyone...and the list goes on.

In other words, the NT teaching is difficult to contradict if you're a Christian - you either accept that the apostles were appointed by God and knew what they were talking about, or you reject their authority, in which case nothing they say can be trusted.  But the OT is quite, quite different.  Apart from Leviticus and Deutoronomy (and to a lesser extent Numbers) you don't really have passages where someone is laying down the rules for how you should behave.  Obviously those books are very explicitly God's commands.  But most of the OT is history - a record of what humans did and how God reacted. 

Again, I understand your point.  But the OT does paint a very different picture of God to the NT.  And it also depends on how you view the inspiration of the texts too.  Commandments and temple rites aside, either God did do these things and say these things or he didn't.  It is precisely the 'reactions' of God that are, in some cases, objectionable.  It is not just about the difference in moral teachings of prophets and apostles.

If you treat the historical sections as though they are God's commands, then obviously there are deep problems - which is why that list from the beginning of this thread is kind of humorous on its own, but as a theological statement is ridiculous.  Obviously, hojusaram, you recognised that because when you were challenged by someone who went through and put them in their historical contexts, you conceded that large numbers of those passages simply did not say what the list said it did. 

As I said, I didn't write the list.  But I did see that it contained points that (even still) I find irreconcilable.

But this really underlines the point - you can't treat the OT like the NT.  Not because God has changed, but because the documents are different.

I'll accept that much.  They are different documents from different times with different intent.  But again, it's the picture of God that they paint.  If these books are inspired or not, they paint him in an objectionable light.

I think it's not that hard, then, to deal with the majority of the points that you have raised - things like the use of slavery.  These things look appalling and they need to be carefully analysed and thought through.  But they're not that hard to deal with if you do some work on it. 

Ok, so enlighten me then?  How are these things able to be worked through?  I really am open to hear.

The biggest problem, of all the ones we've touched on, is IMHO the slaughtering of the people in the land of Canaan which allows the Jews to take the promised land. 

Sure.  Brave of you to say so.  How do you reconcile that within yourself then?

The only other general point I'd like to add is that you are not really distinguishing between vengeance and punishment.  Punishment, ideally, should be retribution administered in response to wrongdoing.  It is the execution of justice, and justice is a good thing (if a little uncomfortable when applied too close to home).  (I'm assuming here that you don't entirely reject the idea of retributive justice, but if you want to have a talk about deterrence and distributive justice as well, I'm happy to launch into that.)  Vengeance suggests just lashing out in anger to hurt another person in response to a wrong done to you.  The end result may or may not be just on the offender.  But the motivation is always merely to hurt and cannot be justified.  By eliding these two concepts, it's very easy to paint the OT God as some mad, easily-offended superpower.  But we really need to consider carefully whether God is acting in pure vengeance or in justice.  And, of course, just because you're angry doesn't mean you are acting unjustly.  With my 4 year old, I try to act justly even when I'm angry.  Being human, I sometimes fail, but most of the time I manage it!  So when we read that God was angry and punished some people, that doesn't necessarily imply that God's actions were unjust.

But the God of the OT certainly seems unjust at times.  Killing people for complaining by sending poisonous snakes?  And the list goes on...

I appreciate your reply.  I really do.  I am looking forward to hearing from you again on this matter.  I actually have another issue I would like to discuss though if you have time.  It's about the return of Jesus and eschatology.  It's a doozy that I would really like to thrash out with someone.  It may well be the final nail in my faith's coffin.  Are you keen?

Cheers
Troy

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but then that was all old testament stuff, so then isnt it irrelevant to today??

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Well the thing here is that according to the Bible, God doesn't change.  In other words, God is bound by the things he did 'yesterday, today and forever'.  So if God did these things, (but  I reckon he didn't)  then that's the god Xians worship.  So if you think he acted wrongly then what does that STILL say about God?

The better explanation is that the God that those OT people believed in was more a reflection of themselves and their culture than of the NT time.  War, slaughter and tribal biases.  The NT God is of course a reflection of that time.  Forgiveness, grace and just a smidgen of war, slaughter and a whole lot of racism.