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An area I struggled with for some time, is it part of salvation.I believe its the same area as tounges its part of the package for our realtionship with GodOld Holdborn re you traditional churchs stance where do you stand on this one?NB Unkoolman I belive this will get more coverage and discussion here

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Most Christians will say that water baptism is a commandment of God and therefore should be blindly followed. Most good little Christians don't question their churches salvation doctrine regardless of how nonsensical is sounds. Baptism comes across to me like a wedding ceremony: Not necessary but a nice public gesture.

I think the conundrum Christians have is that salvation is freely given and not attained through any works, but baptism is an activity and a works (albeit, it's a little work, it's a physical activity nonetheless). It, like teaching yourself to tongue babble, is a works. Getting thorougly wet in accordance with an interpretation of what you believe to be the inspired word does not make one sinless. You go into the water a sinner and come out of the water a sinner. Surely salvation is by faith and is a heart attitude coupled with commitment to a Christian lifestyle.

Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: (Romans 3:22)

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Baptism can only be a 'work' if one believes that it's necessary for salvation. If one accepts that it isn't (which is the biblical position), then baptism is recognised as simply an act of obedience and contrition.

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Reply to : MothandRustGood morning, Moth.I think the conundrum Christians have is that salvation is freely given and not attained through any works, but baptism is an activity and a works (albeit, it's a little work, it's a physical activity nonetheless). It, like teaching yourself to tongue babble, is a works. Getting thorougly wet in accordance with an interpretation of what you believe to be the inspired word does not make one sinless. You go into the water a sinner and come out of the water a sinner. Surely salvation is by faith and is a heart attitude coupled with commitment to a Christian lifestyle.Baptism canonlybe a 'work' if one believes that it'snecessaryfor salvation. If one accepts that itisn't(which is the biblical position), then baptism is recognised as simply an act of obedience and contrition.Bless

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Reply to : old holbornOld fella,I pretty much agree with what you shared on this subject, but I'd offer the following caution: be careful when using Christ's baptism as the exemplar for us to follow. I say this because Jesus submitted to being baptised by John so as to identify withus(the sinners he came to save). We submit to baptism when we believe, in part, to transfer our 'ownership' tohim.The symbolism isn't quite the same, I hope you seeBlessings,Ian

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Hi Ian, and thanks, yes I can see how there is a difference, had'nt occured to me , but you are right . Long may we have your excellant and brilliant analitical input.   a teacher par excellence who I have come to admire and respect.

God bless you

Peter.

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Hi Ian, and thanks, yes I can see how there is a difference, had'nt occured to me , but you are right . Long may we have your excellant and brilliant analitical input.   a teacher par excellence who I have come to admire and respect.

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OH MY GOD... Don't tell him that, we'll never get rid of him!

To be honest though, it's been great having him around and I appreciate his input. I actually enjoy reading his stuff, and that's really the highest possible compliment I could give to a Christian. I've got to give kudos to someone who defends his views with time and effort, and keeps it open to scrutiny without resorting to personal attacks and illogical logic (illogical logic..? I dunno). I can learn a few things there. I know people find him arrogant and use similar words, but they're usually people who are in direct opposition or have short reading attention spans.

Hmmm, maybe I'm being a suck-up or maybe I'm going too soft, but anyone who raises a voice to publicly question the Revival salvation doctrine with passion and vigour is a legend in my book. Ian, in my opinion is amongst them and I thank him for it. That'll be the last time I pander to his ego... ok? Ha - that'll be enough to get me in trouble. I'm still writing my theory on tongues, and I'm looking forward to the response when I post it. Did you ever finish the essay you were writing on hell Ian?

to sweet release

in Acts when paul is telling the people how to be saved he tells people to repent AND be baptized for the remissions of sins. From this i'd get that you'd probably need to be baptized Paul said it here to everybody as one of the first things you need to do for slavation.

In the end theres heaps of scriptures that say people got baptized etc, i think better safe then sorry hey!

I think once all is said and done I tend to agree with you sweet release, I am sure there may be others who dissagree and that is there perogative, I guess as I have stated in other posts its all part of the package of our relationship with God and yea better safe than sorry, dosent do any harm "a"

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to sweet releasein Acts when paul is telling the people how to be saved he tells people to repent AND be baptized for the remissions of sins. From this i'd get that you'd probably need to be baptized Paul said it here to everybody as one of the first things you need to do for slavation.In the end theres heaps of scriptures that say people got baptized etc, i think better safe then sorry hey!I think once all is said and done I tend to agree with you sweet release, I am sure there may be others who dissagree and that is there perogative, I guess as I have stated in other posts its all part of the package of our relationship with God and yea better safe than sorry, dosent do any harm "a"

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Off the subject, GREAT AVATAR EARTH!!!!! What does the 5 stand for? I will email you soon, tried twice tonight but failed. God bless

I just wanted to stick my 2 bobs worth in too...  I rekon baptism is fully meant to be done asap by all people that realise that Jesus died for their sins- and rose again..( people that believe the Gospel).

When I read things in the Bible like these below....

....that Jesus did it to 'fulfill all righteousness'....  and the disciples dunked people too...

...and everyone is told to do it on the day of pentecost.- so 3000 people did it-!!!! ( that same day!)

....and the Ethiopian eunuch asked to be dunked in some water by phillip-(seemed to be done very quickly(while still on his chariot))

...and the Samaritans were all dunked...  and Cornelius and co were dunked...

...and the Phillipian Jailer man and his house were baptised that same night.

How many people do u know that get dunked asap?

-hardly any- they all normally wait... for sunday...or the next group of baptisms...or till they feel like it...or  whatever- .....I think that is because nobody is telling them it is an essential step- in their walk to follow Jesus.

...and Jesus said" He that believes and is baptised will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." ( I've heard people say that- "see- Jesus didnt say,' he that hasnt been baptised will be condemned..'-so its not necessary."   I think that view does no justice to the real meaning of this Scripture.

 I rekon it's clear- obviously if u dont believe in Jesus- u wont bother being baptised. And if u did get baptised but dont believe- u will be condemned too.

Why do people spend so much time trying to prove that baptism isn't essential?  Why not just do it like everybody else did!

I dont think people should be waiting for 'the right time' to get baptised. Today!!! Now!!! is the right time-!!!! why wait?   Why wait???

If u believe in Jesus- why would u wait to follow Him and obey Him....????? It's crazy.

There is no excuse for a believer to not have been baptised! There is water nearly everywhere-(and if there's not- go and find some!) (John the baptist dunked people in the Jordan- they all went out there to him- to be baptised.)  ....and there is no shortage of believers to dunk a new believer!!!!!!

I've heard of people with a fear of the water being baptised... and sick people... etc- I haven't seen a decent excuse yet ...

We should encourage all believers to be baptised asap!!!!!!- It is the right thing to do.

That's one thing Revival's got going for it... at least they baptise people straight away!!!  I wish all churches would have a baptism tank/pool/whatever ready all the time- and call for believers to be baptised straight away. 

And all the people said....  AMEN! 

Added notes#  Is baptism essential for salvation?

My answer- I am not sure. I know that believers must do it. Only God knows if He will have mercy on someone who believes- but for some reason has not been baptised. Maybe they didn't get the chance because they died on the way to the water!?? Maybe they heard about Jesus in a land where there were no Bibles-so they believed in Jesus- but didn't know they were meant to be baptised... etc. God will deal with these cases (if there is any) in a just and right way!

As to whether to fully submerse/dunk someone in water...or to sprinkle....or pour water on them......... I know I'm glad to have been dunked! I rekon dunking should be the way to go in every case. If you can't find enough water to do the dunk-eg: if you get witnessed to in the middle of the desert...(ahhaha)... then maybe splash or pour it on...( with the intention to do it properly when you can get to some water!) ...as for knowing if there was or wasn't heaps of water in Samaria and other places- (how do we even know that!- it was 2000 years ago-! let's just assume there was enough water to dunk people. I'm sure they could've made up a temporary bath-or hole, and then filled it with water...to do all the baptisms in!  It wouldn't be that hard. I'd do it! -or just travel to where there was a creek or pond, or the sea...   I think it's better to do it by submersion- then you know you've done it right. I'd be uncertain if I'd just got sprinkled or something. (not uncertain that Jesus was my Saviour- but uncertain that I'd really done what I was meant to.) I'd get baptised again!- by full immersion - just to make sure!  (If someone hasn't been baptised by immersion - and is happy about the validity of their baptism- that's up to them... but I would say to that person..."be baptised by immersion"...    better to be safe then sorry.

I think we believers should all just tell new believers they must be baptised, (and do it by immersion) -and encourage them to do it asap,  - and show them  the Scriptures on baptism in the new testament. 

Sott,

My limited understaning is that baptisim is full imersion, howebver welcom your thoughts

earth5

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Reply to : earth5'morning, E5.Sott,My limited understaning is that baptisim is full imersion, howebver welcom your thoughtsThere are two Greek words for 'baptism' used in the NT:baptismosandbaptisma. Both are nouns, consequently, theydon'tdescribe an action, but athing. Further, there is just the one Greek verb used to describe the act of 'baptizing':baptizo, and neither does it properly mean 'to dip' or 'to plunge'. Itcan, but it can also mean 'to wash', for example.It remainsthe contextin which a word is used that determines its proper meaning. Whilst immersionist baptism was likely the norm in the early Church, we know from a number of very early writings (notably theDidachec. AD 70-85) thatpouringwas also used.Blessings,Ian

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Hi Guys

from my point of view baptism is important, but as Earth 5 says it is part of a total package.       The one question that i have is regarding the remission of sins.   If it does not come by baptism then where does it come from, and is it important that ones sins are remmited or cancelled.  If one is not baptised have their sins been remitted or cancelled, but if one does not agree to baptism then do you sins remain.  Simon Magus   I probably also say that just because you have been baptised then it may not also mean that your sins have been cancelled because should it follow repentance.    From having discussions with revival centre people from time to time when i have come accross them, they say they will baptise at any time, (immediately if they have their way  just get them in the tank , who cares at least they have been baptised ) This to me is wrong

Any views

to Sott1 thank you for your reply,

I guess that in my view full immersion is baptisim, (some things hard to shift i guess) to pour I dont think is from a bilical view point, and as all references in the scripture (from my limited understanding) seem to indicate full immersion when anyone was baptised and as christians this is our reference point then it should be this way, what ever someone else decided was ok in the year AD70 etc was not as i understand based on scripture and thus irrelevent.

Sott1 if you can find me actual scripture to to support pouring then i am all ears.

To Chris7, some very intersting points my friend re repentance, sott1 can you enlighten us please

earth5

Thanks Earth 5

Thanks earth 5 about repentance but my main point was remission or cancelling out of sins. If we talk about "saved" what constitutes it         Are we saved if we are still have sin remaining in us

Chris

chris7 sorry re miss understanding,

We all are sinners and will continue to until christ returns, the issue is are we bringing it daily to God are we repentent when we stuff up, Our God is a God of grace, and I dont mean greasy grace that says that we can do whatever we want and its all ok, what i am saying is that we are all human and make mistakes, we are then required to repent of those mistakes before God and try to not make that mistake repetivly other wise where is true repentance.

Our walk with Christ is a daily thing some days are good some days not so good, however we press on towards the prize,

hopefully not to rambling

earth5

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Permit me toget the razor out. (Occam's).We read the account of Philip meeting the Ethiopianeunuch (officer) Acts ch 8: v 38....they both wentdowninto the water.... And, John baptized in thewilderness....... Mark ch 1: v 9, Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan river....... v 10... coming upout ofthe water.......Q1 If baptism meant justpouring (or sprinkling as performed by nominal religion today) Why did those that where baptized godowninto the river and brobably got uncomfortably wet, when it would have been more convienient to have jars of water on the bank?Q2 Jesus travelled from Galilee to the Jordan river, approximately 70 miles. Wouldn't it have been more convenient to be done at home if it wasn't important tobe fully immersed?Bro

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No problem here my friend as mentioned all examples that I read are full immersion and I was asking Sott1 to give me a scripture stating other wise, not a down the track change of view point from some "theologian"

earth5

Hi Earth and all

I understand that we will sin      we will sin even though we are not aware of it      And my thought is that we are covered by the blood of jesus for forgiveness of those sins       But where is the starting point     Is that with baptism    

Galatians 3.27     "For as many of you as having been baptised into Christ have put on Christ"

Romans 6-4 "therefore we are buried with him in baptism into death that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father even though we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together into the likeness of his death we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection"

If we havent been baptised into Christ have we received initial forgiveness for sins?

Is it necessary or is it an optional extra          

      Acts 10-47Do we take the view of the story of Cornelius when Peter commanded them to be baptised         

  Acts 9-18 Why did Anninias baptise Paul    

     Acts 16-33 When asked of Paul by the jailer at Philipi   "What must i do to be saved"   Paul replied "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved and your house, and they spoke to him the word of the Lord and to all that were in his house. And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their wounds and was baptised straight away"

Is it necessary for salvation or not     just asking the question !!!         

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Reply to : chris7Hi, Chris.Is it [baptism] necessary for salvation or not just asking the question !!!No, it's notGod bless,Ian

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Hi Sott1, chris7, Brolga & others, 

You know, I reckon that there are lots of things that we don't really know for sure. We can debate, argue and even study till the cows come home and  still not know everything (see through a glass darkly?).   But at the end of the day, as long as we believe on the name of Jesus and live our lives for Him and show people by acts of kindness that we love them as He loves us, surely we are doing the best we can with what God has given us? 

Personally I have learned some incredibly important lessons in the last three & half months since leaving RF.  I had never really fully understood the importance of truly loving people with the love of God.  Many times I have walked past old drunks with vomit in their beards or a drug addict lying around in a park and not even considered that I could help them by showing them the love of God.  Now that I am no longer bound by the old RF thinking, I am happy to go up to these people and buy them a coffee or a pastie and tell them simply that Jesus loves them, which then gives God the opportunity to reach out to them. I no longer have to tell them 'you MUST be baptised by full immersion and you MUST speak in tongues to be saved"  etc.   I have been so incredibly blessed lately and I feel so full of God's love that I now feel the need to pass this love on to others (if that makes sense). In other words, God has taught me about compassion in a big way. I'm really looking forward to God shaping and moulding me in a way that I never really understood for all my 24 years in RF and I look forward now with anticipation to what God will do with me and through me.

God bless, Urchin

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Reply to : earth5G'day, E5.Sott1 if you can find me actual scripture to to support pouring then i am all ears.Try Acts 8, for starters. There didn't exist in 1st century Samaria a single standing body of water large enough to immerse even one person, never mind the numbers alluded to (exegesisalsoinvolves a good understanding of geography, culture and history). Christians didn't begin to use 'fonts' until mid way through the 2nd century, ergo...Blessings,Ian

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will have a read a get back to you

ta

earth5

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Reply to : SOTT1Reply to : BrolgaBrolga,It makes more sense to me if Baptism is meant to be symbolic of Christ's burial and ressurrection.Why? 1st century Jewsdidn'tbury people in holes dug in the ground. They entombed them in burial caves until the flesh rotted away; they then collected the bones and housed them in 'bone boxes' called ossuaries. And, of course, we should remember that Jesus' body wasn't placed in a hole in the ground and then covered with dirt, was it?Blessings,IanActually, I was refering to Romans 6: 3-6 and Colossians 2: 12, but after looking into again, you are going to tell me, it is not talking about water baptism, but baptism with Holy Ghostand fire Matt 3: v11.&n

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Hi Guys

why isnt anybody addressing the idea that baptism is for the remission of sins

Love Chris

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 why isnt anybody addressing the idea that baptism is for the remission of sins

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Isn't that what it says in Acts 2 v38 (although I know revival groups do not believe baptism is for the remission of sins)? Also the scripture later in Acts where Paul, relating his story, is told to be baptized and wash away his sins.

Interesting topic.

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Reply to : chris7why isnt anybody addressing the idea that baptism is for the remission of sinsIsn't that what it says in Acts 2 v38 (although I know revival groups do not believe baptism is for the remission of sins)? Also the scripture later in Acts where Paul, relating his story, is told to be baptized and wash away his sins.Interesting topic.

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Hi Brolga and all

I really dont see what is difficult about the matter it seems simple to me.  If we take scripture only and not any ideas that people have.       There are quite a few scriptures that relate to baptism in the new testament, where when people who heard the gospel regarding Jesus were baptised straight away.  If i had a question it would be why?

My only conclusion would be that the people who were doing the telling of Jesus would have also have told of the need to be baptised, and people responded.

Acts 22-16 Ananias to Paul      "For you will be a witness to all men of what you have seen and heard,and now why are you waiting, arise and be baptised and wash away your sins calling on the name of the Lord                 Assumption ananias spoke to paul about the need to be baptised

Acts 18-8 Paul to Crispus   "Then Crispus the ruler of the synagogue believed on the Lord with all his household, and many of the Corrinthians hearing believed and were baptised       assumption paul spoke to crispus about the need to be baptised

Acts 16-14  Paul to Lydia    Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us. She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira who worshiped God. The word opened her heart to hear the things spoken by Paul, and when she and her household were baptised she begged us saying if you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord come into my house and stay         assumption paul spoke to lydia about the need to be baptised

Acts 8-35 Philip to the etheopian eunuch  Then Philip opened his mouth and began at the same scripture and preached to him Jesus        verse 36 See here is water what would hinder me to be baptised       Assumption philip spoke to him about the need to be baptised

Acts 10-47  Peter to Cornelius   Can any man forbid water that these should be baptised which have received the Holy Spirit as well as we. And he commanded them to be baptised in the name of the Lord  Assumption Peter spoke to Cornelius about the need to be baptised

Luke 24-46  Then he (Jesus ) said to them thus it was written and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and rise from the dead the third day. And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name to all nations beginning at jerusalem

1st Peter 3-21   Which sometimes were disobedient when once the longsuffering of Godwaited in the days of Noah while the ark was preparing,wherin few that is eight souls were saved by water. The like figure even baptism does now also save us, not the putting away the filth of the flesh but the answer of a good concience toward God by the ressurection of Jesus Christ

Mark 16- 15   Jesus said "he who belives and is baptised shall be saved"

Sorry Guys     IF ITS GOOD ENOUGH FOR JESUS,   AND FOR PETER,   AND FOR PAUL,   AND FOR PHILIP   THEN ITS GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME

Sorry its a bit lenghy

God bless you all          Chris

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Reply to : chris7Chris,I don't think anyone is suggesting that baptism isn'timportant, some people are simply wondering whether baptism isessential.God bless,Ian

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Hi guys

From my reading of the scriptures   yep it is essential but as earth said earlier in the post its part of a total package and not to be below or above any of the things that we need to do to be in right standing with God  There seem to be to many scriptures that point to baptism being necessary or is it just an optional extra. Which means that it dosent matter if we get baptised or not.       I go back to an earlier point   At what point are our sins remitted or forgiven.    Like i said befor if its good enough for the writers of the new testament when they preached the gospel of Jesus to people and baptism followed shortly after then its good enough for me assume that they spoke about it as part of the preaching of the gospel

When the jailer at phillipi  ( Acts 16-31 ) asked Paul "What must i do to be saved" and they spoke to him the words of the Lord ( JESUS) He was baptised straight away

Love Chris

Hi Sott

Do the scriptures nominate anybody as being "saved" either before or after baptism

Chris 

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Reply to : BrolgaBrolga,It makes more sense to me if Baptism is meant to be symbolic of Christ's burial and ressurrection.Why? 1st century Jewsdidn'tbury people in holes dug in the ground. They entombed them in burial caves until the flesh rotted away; they then collected the bones and housed them in 'bone boxes' called ossuaries. And, of course, we should remember that Jesus' body wasn't placed in a hole in the ground and then covered with dirt, was it?Blessings,Ian

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I wasn,t  looking at the carnal mechanics of the thing, but in the spiritual sense of the word as being likened to his burial and resurrection.  But, I suppose that is Revivalist thinking also!

HIi Guys

I agree Sott Baptism in itself dosent save anybody  it must follow belief and repentance cant possibly come before, but never the less its part of a total package

For fear of repeating myself

Jesus said "He who belives and is baptised will be saved

Peter Said "Repent and be baptised every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins"

For any of you who have visited this thread     Earth5    Old Holbourn    Sweet release   Nahum    Sea urchin     Shining for Jesus    Brolga        Tarquin the Magnificent   EVEN MOTH          Care to throw a thought or two in to this thread            cos i might not be able to access acomputer for a few days

Love you all          Chris

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I don't think I'd want to be part of any discussion where someone invites me into it by saying 'Even so and so can join in'.

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Reply to : MothandRustI don't think I'd want to be part of any discussion where someone invites me into it by saying 'Even so and so can join in'.Even so, Even so, Even so......... I just couldn't help myself moth, it's been ages since I said something and thats about as good as it gets for me at the moment. Come on you are tougher than that.

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Ohhh, alright. For you Franko.

I still can't believe it when modern churches continue to emulate the symbolic rituals of these ancient times by re-enacting all the overly dramatic little practices. Immersing yourselves under the water to make a big public show of how super-duper they are by following all of Jeebus'  commandments. Would people jump off cliffs if he told them to? Yeah probably. This one should also be followed and sadly, often is, when he said, "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother...he cannot be my disciple." (Luke 14:26). Yep... of course the ancient Oxford dictionary will probably have a good reason why the original words for hate meant something else and black is actually white and yin is quite possibly yang.

Some churches even include regular footwashing in their meetings to make real the anology of serving your brethren and yadda yadda yadda. And where's the annointing oil? Huh... come on, there's another symbolic gesture that was good enough for Jesus. Is it good enough for you Chris7. 'CAUSE IT WAS GOOD ENOUGH FOR JESUS, SO IT'S GOOD ENOUGH FOR YOU EH? Get your annointing oil out and go slippery sloppery crazy.

The scared bloody literalists are so frightened  to miss what they believe is part of the salvation initiation process that they have to install big fibreglass baptismal tanks into their back rooms to accommodate the sin cleansing act... it doesn't even wash the sins away... it just symbolises it. Then they have to drag people into their churches water tanks before they get hit by buses and miss out on an infinity of worship music and golden mansions.

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Reply to : MothandRustI don't think I'd want to be part of any discussion where someone invites me into it by saying 'Even so and so can join in'.Even so, Even so, Even so......... I just couldn't help myself moth, it's been ages since I said something and thats about as good as it gets for me at the moment. Come on you are tougher than that.

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Well mothman, have you been blue balling or what? Oh am I aloud to say that, I only learnt the term last night at the movies.

Hey guys I had my 24th wedding anniversary yesterday, thats gotta say something for Mrs Frank don't you think.

Still checking in daily to see you guys.

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I don't think I'd want to be part of any discussion where someone invites me into it by saying 'Even so and so can join in'.

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Reply to : franks ghostReply to : MothandRustI don't think I'd want to be part of any discussion where someone invites me into it by saying 'Even so and so can join in'.Even so, Even so, Even so......... I just couldn't help myself moth, it's been ages since I said something and thats about as good as it gets for me at the moment. Come on you are tougher than that.Ohhh, alright. For you Franko.I still can't believe it when modern churches continue to emulate the symbolic rituals of these ancient times by re-enacting all the overly dramatic little practices. Immersing yourselves under the water to make a big public show of how super-duper they are by following all of Jeebus' commandments. Would people jump off cliffs if he told them to? Yeah probably. Thi

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very dry humour on this not so dry topic (well it's a dry argument for some).

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Reply to : Brolgavery dry humour on this not so dry topic (well it's a dry argument for some).

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Reply to : franks ghostReply to : Brolgavery dry humour on this not so dry topic (well it's a dry argument for some).Thanks Frank. Just looking for a bit of attention I suppose.

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Reply to : BrolgaReply to : franks ghostReply to : Brolgavery dry humour on this not so dry topic (well it's a dry argument for some).Thanks Frank. Just looking for a bit of attention I suppose.I've been caught out again, attention seeking, I'm all washed up.

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