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Talmid
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Date Posted:23/04/2008 2:49 AMCopy HTML

I'd like to express my concern for former Rev'rs who get involved with the manifestations of the 'Toronto blessing' such as holy laughter and even the more established 'slaying in the Spirit'. I was prompted to look into this a little after I listened to a recent conversation in the ShoutBox.


It seems to me after this look that such experiences are *at best* merely manifestations of the flesh. Further it seems to me that any organisation which promotes them as being from the Spirit, let alone scriptural or to be desired, has serious deficiencies in their theology and appreciation of scripture.


I've never experienced any of these beyond viewing of videos on YouTube of rallies held by Benny Hinn and Kenneth Hagin - images which I found somewhat disturbing. However, friends whom I respect and who have experienced or seen them at first hand assess such manifestations with terms ranging from 'bringing them closer to God' to demonic. Similarly I've read in Wesley's diaries where some in the crowds to whom he spoke were left in catatonic states which seem to correspond to what we call today 'being slain in the Spirit'. (As I recall, he puzzled over whether it was the work of God or human nature.)


I should also add that I've visited a number of Pentecostal churches and as I said I've never seen such activities so I'm *not* tarring Pentecostal churches per se with this brush.


Now, over the years I've heard a number of scriptures used to justify such experiences and they all seem to be totally wrested out of context and I'm quite unconvinced that such experiences are biblical blessings. I believe that the authors of the NT would in fact dissociate from them as pagan.


My recent reading has, however, flagged close correspondance between these manifestations and a Hindu 'kundalini release'. See e.g., http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/blessing.html. It also has flagged that those seeking such experience are exhorted to effectively 'turn off their minds', something *quite* unscriptural - especially wrt 'testing the spirits'.


I remind those who say, "It must be from God because it brings me closer to Him" that the biblical practice was to rank scripture above experience. Our Rev'r approach, generally ignorant of scripture and ranking experience above scripture, sets us up for accepting 'Toronto blessings' as being from God.

The evidence for Mann-made global warming is unequivocal.
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Re:'Toronto blessing' and kundalini

Date Posted:23/04/2008 6:40 AMCopy HTML

Common hermeneutics are very much demonstrated among Revival groups. What I have experienced myself, when in ignorance of this, at the time was very much deceived into believing it was a blessing from the Lord.
Viz; Everytime I was to operate a "gift" in the church, be it "tongues" or "prophecy", directly after, I had extremely painfull cramps and "pins and needles" in my feet and arms. On questioning this I was told that is the manifestation of the Holy Spirit giving a special blessing. Not a very convincing explanation. There where others in the group that had the same experience and one poor chap used to get really flattened by it and was left lying on the floor for ten minutes or more.
In time I actually ceased from practicing this as it didn't seem right about it. After a couple of years I had this same experience of the pins and needles bit, but a different situation. It was after riding my push bike home from work on a very hot summers day, that I got effected by the heat and started to hyper-ventilate and as a result the  cramps, pins and needles resulted exactly the same as when I was operating these so called gifts. Medical info says this is not an unusual occurrence when one is dehydrated or over wrought and hyper-ventilating. 
There are many things that come to mind I know of different folk having had other certain experiences thinking it was of the Lord, but I have made a point for now.
Maybe it was not to the extremes that Talmid has mentioned with Benny Hinn and the like, but the danger of reading ones feelings or experiences into the word can and is fatal to our real blessing in the Lord. 

brolga


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Re:'Toronto blessing' and kundalini

Date Posted:23/04/2008 4:09 PMCopy HTML

Might wade into this discussion!  Its Dog here (although apathy has prevented me from registering on the new forum).

I know little of this T blessing business.  Seen a bit of footage of big rallies with faolk being willingly pushed over etc.  Looks pretty bloody ridiculous as an out sider!

I'm not sure how you correlate that with kundalini however???

I will mention that I has an experience about 8 years ago, that could best be described as a spontaneous kundalini awakening.

This is my honest account, although words will scarcely be able to describe the immensity of the experience.  I must say firstly though, that I had never read or learnt of the phenomenon before it happened to me.  At the time, I had no idea what was happening, and only after a bit of enquiry, did I  learn any info about what  had happened.

I was in bed on a very hot summers night, alone (as my wife had gone away for a few days).  I was having difficulty sleeping due to the heat and an over-active mind, (I think)....

It was soon after leaving the RF, and I did have a fair bit of 'stuff' going down at the time.  Lying on my bed, suddenly without warning, I felt as though a billion volts of electricity overtook my body.  I felt totally overwhelmed, my whole body stiff, almost as though I was being levitated, as this 'power' surged through every cell of my being.  It lasted (I dunno) maybe 2 mins, maybe 10 mins.  As I lay there, although this was a totally unexpected, unknown experience, I was completely at ease in it.  It was beautiful, exhilirating, intense, and yet gentle all at once!!!  I was perfectly willing to just bask in it, and allow it to be, until it gently subsided of its own accord.

About the closest way I can describe it is to say it was like an orgasm.  But not just a sexual orgasm.  More like an intense and overwhelming orgasm of every cell of my body..... absolute pure blissfulness!  Yet, all the time, I was completely lucid, and had a kind of curious observation of what was happening.  My mind was aware, but not caught up in it.  Rather, it was like my mind was independant, calmly observing.  No fear, no attachment.  Just a peaceful feeling of flowing with it all.

Think what you may about this experience!  It matters not at all, whether you believe my account, or what you think of it.  It (after all) was a personal experience, and probably of little consequence to anyone else!

But as you can imagine, it obviously had me in a bit of a spin afterward, wondering what the hell it was, or what it meant (if anything)?  I think at the time, and after, it kind of felt like a big love-bomb.  A bliss-out from the universe or god or whatever we are all immersed in.  Sort of took it as some kind of affirmation, that (despite the chaos and confusion I was in at the time) I was alright, I was part of something amazing and powerful.

A few weeks later, I was talking to a guy I know.  He is a meditation teacher, and has written many books.  He had been a buddhist, and had a deep understanding of a lot of this stuff.  I described my experience, and asked if he had heard of this type of thing.  He was quite matter-of-fact about it, saying that it sounds like a spontaneous kundalini awakening, and that it was not uncommon.  He briefly described how it is known to manifest (in different ways) and basically suggested that I just accept it, but not to make a big deal out of it. 

Recognising his wisdom, I just moved on, pretty much keeping it to myself.  A few years later when I got into the internet, something reminded me of it, and I googled the topic.  It was fascinating to read many accounts, and explanations.  It apparently can have profound and lasting physical manifestations in some people, as well as spiritual awakening.  At times, some very negative physical symptoms can occur, or mental illness, and sometimes sudden creative talents, hightened sensory perception, etc, etc.

You can draw your own conclusions about all this.  I hear of folk having a 'touch from the Lord', and all sorts of other experiences.  Are they of the same stuff?  I dunno.  Quite probably.  They are all pretty weird, and vague (as to what they mean) and the 'recipients' tend to read all sorts of meanings into them, that may or may not be valid.  But hey, if it wants to land on me and give me a bliss out for awhile, I'm not arguing!Wink

I don't find the bible to be of much help whatsoever in evaluating such things (or much in life at all) to be honest.  So whether or not any of these experiences are biblical, or considered valid according to christain views are pretty irrelevent. Others have a very different viewpoint. So, put that in ya pipe and smoke it!!!!

Dogmafree!

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Re:'Toronto blessing' and kundalini

Date Posted:23/04/2008 5:38 PMCopy HTML

Well to see what this supposed connection was, I just had a bit of a look at some web info where christians are raising the alarm, saying that t blessings and kundalini are alike.

I dunno if they are connected, but geez I tire of the bloody fear-mongering that christians like to propogate.  Anything that isn't prescribed in triplicate as being from Christ himself is deemed demonic, dangerous and forbidden.  Can't believe the sicko paranoia that feeds the christian psyche!!!

O the demons!Frown
Talmid Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #4
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Re:'Toronto blessing' and kundalini

Date Posted:23/04/2008 10:53 PMCopy HTML

Yo Guest

I dunno if they are connected, but geez I tire of the bloody fear-mongering that christians like to propogate
If you'd written 'some christians' I'd agree

Anything that isn't prescribed in triplicate as being from Christ himself is deemed demonic, dangerous and forbidden.
Actually, the evidence is that many Christians disagree with this point, IMHO (as a Christian) there are many 'good 'experiences we can enjoy, but not all of them are direct moves of the Holy Spirit .

Can't believe the sicko paranoia that feeds the christian psyche!!!
I often find the psyche of those who seem to make generalisations not based on evidence or logic to be frustrating. I'm hoping that you've inadvertently left out a 'some' here or there.
The evidence for Mann-made global warming is unequivocal.
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Re:'Toronto blessing' and kundalini

Date Posted:23/04/2008 11:27 PMCopy HTML

Talmid, you just beat me to the button, I was in the process of posting much of what you just said. 
Just to add; Guest, Not all Christians think that way, it stems mainly from ignorant folk who have not a clue what the Bible message is all about. A little research and correct reading shows it has nothing to do with the experiences one sees in scripture. 

brolga 
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Re:'Toronto blessing' and kundalini

Date Posted:24/04/2008 12:00 AMCopy HTML

Well thank you for those christian responses!  You are quite right.  I was making some broad generalisations.

It is however often the case that christians tend to invalidate and dismiss many things of a spiritual nature that may not meet up with their views.  Believing that 'Jesus is the ONLY way' would seem to cultivate that sort of thinking.  But yeah, its the real religious zealots that want to tar everything else with satans brush that really are obnoxious!
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Re:'Toronto blessing' and kundalini

Date Posted:24/04/2008 1:47 AMCopy HTML

Guest,

Before the 'sweetness and light' goes too far Wink, I should say that I do believe that 'Jesus is the ONLY way' and further that there are important differences between "things of a spiritual nature' and 'things of a Spiritual nature'.
The evidence for Mann-made global warming is unequivocal.
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Re:'Toronto blessing' and kundalini

Date Posted:11/04/2011 8:31 PMCopy HTML

 The blessings comes from GOD and NOT from Toronto!
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Re:'Toronto blessing' and kundalini

Date Posted:11/04/2011 10:28 PMCopy HTML

Hi, Kirsten.

The blessings comes from GOD and NOT from Toronto! If you're referring to the range of manifestations that are indelibly identified with the so-called Toronto and Pensacola 'blessings' of the early to mid 1990's, then please don't be blaming God for such nonsense.

Blessings,

Ian
email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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