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Date Posted:01/09/2004 12:11 PMCopy HTML

The first time I encountered the Revival Centre was in one of there outreach tents at the Royal Adelaide Show, on it had plaques of all these famous people with supposed quotes of there that then advocated certain Revival Centre teachings, one being General William Booth the founder of the Salvation Army with a quote of his supposed to be describing what it was like to recieve the Holy Spirit and speak in tounges. Trouble is General William Booth never said anything of the kind. In fact just like John Wesley, William Booth taught that Baptism is not a requirement for Salvation, hence to suggest that William Booth advocated Full Immersion Baptism with recieving the Holy Spirit with evidence of speaking in tounges is an outright lie. I have a number of books on William Booth, and not one has any reference to their claims, nor is any of it written in the doctrines of the Salvation Army, in fact actually quite the opposite. When people make up lies to prove their doctrine, run. Yet in many cases they have already been brainwashed and just accept pretty much anything that the leadership says, just like the Watchtower Society.
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Re:William Booth Spoke in Toungues.

Date Posted:01/09/2004 1:09 PMCopy HTML

Spot on Ben. 

In fact, there is an article on the Revival Centres Information Site that discusses the Revival Centre's fabrication of Xian leaders throughout history who have 'spoken in tongues'.  It is in the Doctrine/Beliefs section and called 'A Response to 2000 years of Tongues'.

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Re:William Booth Spoke in Toungues.

Date Posted:13/09/2005 9:58 PMCopy HTML

$%*'`[partially free]%*'`@

When I was in the RF, my sister told me that when the Salvation Army first started up, that their salvation teaching was the same as the RF's. I believed her, without even checking the sources. I dont believe you guys either (no offence, im just cautious) so il be searching for it on the net now...

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Re:William Booth Spoke in Toungues.

Date Posted:14/09/2005 5:03 PMCopy HTML

$%*'`[hello]%*'`@yeh, i heard that to. can somone find out for sure?
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Re:William Booth Spoke in Toungues.

Date Posted:15/09/2005 2:20 PMCopy HTML

I have done a considerable amount of door knocking for the Revival Fellowship and on one occasion I was telling a guy from the Salvation Army that Booth spoke in tongues according to a pamphlet I had with me,he assured me that William Booth certainly did not speak in tongues, He seemed confident in what he said,so I vowed never to use that pamphlet again as its extremely negative,of no value,and greatly hindered my intentions.
I believe the purpose of the Revival centres,is to fill people with the spirit but if you are led to find out too much about the many problems there,the spirit has to lead you out,or your walk is going to disintegrate,I was told about things there that were wrong 10 years ago,but the Lord didnt lead me out until earlier this year.
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Re:William Booth Spoke in Toungues.

Date Posted:16/09/2005 10:54 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : Chartdoctor

I have done a considerable amount of door knocking for the Revival Fellowship and on one occasion I was telling a guy from the Salvation Army that Booth spoke in tongues according to a pamphlet I had with me,he assured me that William Booth certainly did not speak in tongues, He seemed confident in what he said,so I vowed never to use that pamphlet again as its extremely negative,of no value,and greatly hindered my intentions.I believe the purpose of the Revival centres,is to fill people with the spirit but if you are led to find out too much about the many problems there,the spirit has to lead you out,or your walk is going to disintegrate,I was told about things there that were wrong 10 years ago,but the Lord didnt lead me out until earlier this year.

From Page 6 of  "Christian History " :

 Soon after his conversion William had another life-changing experience: hearing American revivalist James Caughey, who led " a remarkarkabe religious awakening" at Nottingham's Wesleyan Chapel. The rush of souls to hear the Gospel led Booth to see that  " soul saving results may be calculated upon when proper means are used for their accomplishment. " Booth went on to make a lifelong commitment to the scientific revivalism methods of Charles G. Finney....... 

Further reading into this imformative magazine states " Finney's Lectures on Revivals greatly impressed Catherine and William Booth, and patterned much of their approach upon Finney's"     so William Booth would have been completely familiar with the Biblical term "The Baptism of the Holy Spirit" and what it involved... When referring back to the scriptures, Jesus made it quite clear in Acts 1:8 that the disciples would receive "power" when the Holy Spirit came "upon them"..  Jesus did not say that would receive tongues but according to Mark 16, tongues is one of the signs and not necessarily the sign.  William Booth would have completely understood that being Baptised n the Holy Spirit was about  being empowered for "service" in the Kingdom...

Unfortunately, the Rev. Centres and Fellowships due to their poor or inadequate theological foundations have developed the error that as soon as one "speaks in tongues" one is Baptised in the Holy Spirit and this is from the scriptures not always the case... What I find so distressing about the Rev Centre/Fellowship is that they can "short cut" the way to being Baptised in the Holy Spirit by saying mindless repititions over and over again eg hallelujah hallelujah, until the persons tongue gets so tired or worn out that they start to slip and stammer.. This is so foolish and stupid and they completely miss the real objective of the B in the HS that objective  is empowerment for Kingdom Service.. 

It is time that the followers of Lloyd Longfield and John Kuhlman took a little more closer look at their Bibles and see that it is Jesus who Baptisers a man, woman or child in the Holy Ghost and not the theologically erroneous ridden Pastor forcing the "candidate to mutter repititious wordings " as soon as the poor person bobs their head of up out of the water for a fresh breath of air in the baptism tank.. 

Sadly the Revival Centres International and their mis-guided daughter organisation, the Revival Fellowship have tried to justify their errant theological stances with comparing themselves with the great men of Church history such as Charles Finney and William Booth ( and Dwilght L Moody as well) which in all points is truly out of their depth..

 

anon   

 

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Re:William Booth Spoke in Toungues.

Date Posted:16/09/2005 7:09 PMCopy HTML

chartdoctor ,  

                     the above post is the sort of thing i was trying to find the words to describe the church your in, ps dont see this a personal attack on you or the church your in, I  Once asked my forma pastar N.Hollins why it was  that a the start of his minisry he said you didn't have to speake in tougues to be saved, and then one day all of a sudden you did. He gave me no answer or reply.
 

A man died and went to heaven. He was met by Jesus and Jesus began to show him around. As they walked they saw some amazing things. Some too beautiful and amazing to describe. Eventually they came to a huge wall and the man heard the sound of music, laughing and what basically sounded like a party coming from behind the wall. Curious, the man asked Jesus what was going on behind the wall. Jesus answered, "Shhhh!!! Not too loud. That"s the GRC. They think they"re the only ones here!!!"
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Re:William Booth Spoke in Toungues.

Date Posted:17/09/2005 4:25 AMCopy HTML

$%*'`[Brett]%*'`@

Reply to post


I just want to make a comment about some things recently posted.
Some are obviously very much against the teaching that Acts 2.38 is the way of salvation.
Our churches here in the Philippines still preach that being filled with the Spirit with the evidence of tongues is needed for salvation.
Someone posted that any church that comes out of the RC system and still keeps that doctrine won't grow or be blessed. You may not agree with what we teach, and that's your right to do so, but don't try to say that a church that holds to that doctrine CAN'T be happy, free and blessed.

We teach that doctrine and we are growing, our churches are expanding, the people in the church ARE joyful and free in their christian life, we are not legalistic, abusive or cultic. I invite any who can to come here to the Philippines and see for yourself.

I am open to scriptural dialogue with any who would like to prove us wrong. Really, if any confront us with scripture that undeniably show we are in error, I am only too happy to dialogue with them . We have grown out of the unspeakably immature pratice of the RCs wherein one must not participate in reasonable dialogue woth those who differ in doctrine. We are not afraid to talk about these issues calmly,reasonably and in a spirit of meekness with anybody.

Some have posted that we can't be right in what we teach 'cause William Booth, John Wesley or other famous men didn't believe so.

I think the final authority for our doctrines and practice is the writings of the inspired Apostles and not William Booth and company. So if you're going to say that it's wrong to insist on baptism in water and Spirit with tongues for salvation don't appeal to William Booth, Wesley, Finney etc. etc. Show us where the Apostles make it clear you don't need baptism in water and spirit for salvation.

I also agree with what some have said, how the RCs have said that Booth, Wesley and others spoke in tongues but they didn't. The RCs were wrong and sloppy to put such things in their literature coz it can't be verified or proven. Those men did not teach what the RCs teach and the literature they circulate saying they did is deceptive.

I'd like to quote from the book " The Holy Spirit and You" written by Dennis Bennet who was the pioneer of the Charamatic movement.. "People will say: "What about the great christians of history? They didn't speak in tongues!". Are you sure? There is probably not a time in church history when there were not some who knew the fullness of the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues.Whenever there has been a strong revival of the faith, the gifts of the spirit have made their appearance........In more recent times the great Charles Finney did.It seems likely that D.L. Moody did. Many christian leaders today speak in tongues but do not admit it because they fear prejudice."

Some say Charles Finney never spoke in tongues, some say he did, here is an interesting quote from the book " Word and Spirit together" by David Pawson  ... "An English woman heard the evangelist Charles Finney pray in an unknown tongue during family devotions, he assured her it was a special gift God had given him.."

Paul said in Titus 3 verses 3 to 5 that Christ saves us by pouring out his spirit on us, i.e by baptising us in the Holy Spirit.
Whatever guys like Finney, Wesley etc experienced and believed is interesting but not authoritive. I think we need to judge those mens' experiences by the scriptures and not interpret the scriptures by their experiences.

 This forum is doing a very important job in enlightening current RCI/RF/GRC members to what is really going on behind closed doors with their leaders.

I don't agree with the views of all who post and I know they don't agree with me, but hey, let's be mature enough to listen to each other, without going into emotional tirades and ranting and raving about how bad somone is who's posting stuff we may not agree with. It takes considerable maturity to be able to calmly and reasonably dialogue with somone who you may have strong doctrinal differences with.

Let's be mature, guys, and not childish.

 

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Re:William Booth Spoke in Toungues.

Date Posted:17/09/2005 8:51 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : Brett [Anonymous]

Reply to postI just want tomake a comment about some things recently posted.Some are obviously very much against the teaching that Acts 2.38 is the way of salvation.Our churches here in the Philippines still preach that being filled with the Spirit with the evidence of tongues is needed for salvation.

 

But considering Mark 16... The RC's prooftext "tongues" from Mark 16 to justify their belief of the evidence of the infilling of the Holy Spirit and in the same breath deny "casting out demons" and in most instances deny that demons exist.... Tongues is one of the signs - I agree there but Jesus (who is the word of God) clearly stated that "ye shall receive power - dunamis when the Holy Ghost comes upon you .    I have to say that the most important thing that I discovered after leaving the RC's was that the Holy Spirit is a Person.   Contrary to 18 years of RCI indoctrination, the Holy Spirit is not just a language.. He is a person ! and a person who empowers and it is this empowerment that truly defines the difference between the spirit filled and the non spirit filled...    There are a lot of deceived RC people going around saying "shondai shondai my dad drives a hyundai" and their "gift" is not really a gift of God at all because they do it in the abililty of their own flesh and not under the empowerment of the Holy Spirit at all... 

anon

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Re:William Booth Spoke in Toungues.

Date Posted:17/09/2005 2:27 PMCopy HTML

$%*'`[Brett]%*'`@Reply to : Anonymous

.But considering Mark 16... The RC'sprooftext "tongues" from Mark 16 to justify their belief of the evidence of the infilling of the Holy Spirit and in the same breath deny "casting out demons" and in most instances deny that demons exist.... Tongues isoneof the signs- I agree there but Jesus (who is the word of God) clearly stated that "ye shallreceive power- dunamis when the
I agree with you about that Mark 16 doesn't say that everybody must speak in tongues. Also those verses are disputed. But there is a strong case for that belief in Acts 2, 8, 10 and 19. Also it is stated clearly that Paul received the Holy Spirit and was baptised in Acts with no mention of tongues; however it is written in 1 Corinthians that he did speak in tongues.
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Re:William Booth Spoke in Toungues.

Date Posted:17/09/2005 8:21 PMCopy HTML

If it quacks, it's a duck. This is a flawed theology.

In the new religion I'm starting up you've got to wear a gumboot on your head. Then we will KNOW who's in the church and who isn't. We will truly know and mark the moment salvation has come because we shall put a large gumboot on our heads. There will be no argument and we shall piece together the scriptures to work around it at a later date. For the time being though a gumboot will be a very obvious and definite sign that the repentant soul has truly recieved power.

The gumboot will give us unity. We will clean each other's feet on Sundays to show our servitude to each other. A common bond and amazing experience. It'll take practice to balance it there. Don't expect to do it the first time as you will need to seek for this gift. Test the Lord for it. Say you won't leave the side of your bed until you can balance a gumboot on your head.

When you hear our bright happy singing and see the demonstration of gumboot balancing you will know and experience a true miracle.

 

[LINK SiteName=Mothrust: Movies and Modern Myth Target=_blank]http://aintchristian.blogspot.com.au/[/LINK] Be nice, for everyone that you meet is fighting a harder battle - Anita Roddick
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Re:William Booth Spoke in Toungues.

Date Posted:18/09/2005 5:22 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : HeatandServe

If it quacks, it's a duck. This is a flawed theology.
yeah blah blah. so is yours. If it's thawed use scriptures to prove your point. All you do here is knock tongues. You say you faked it for years - well that makes you a habitual liar.
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Re:William Booth Spoke in Toungues.

Date Posted:18/09/2005 9:47 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : Brett [Anonymous]


Reply to : Anonymous.But considering Mark 16... The RC'sprooftext "tongues" from Mark 16 to justify their belief of the evidence of the infilling of the Holy Spirit and in the same breath deny "casting out demons" and in most instances deny that demons exist.... Tongues isoneof the signs- I agree there but Jesus (who is the word of God) clearly stated that "ye shallreceive power- dunamis when theI agree with you aboutthat Mark 16 doesn't say that everybody must speak in tongues. Also those verses are disputed. But there is a strong case for that belief in Acts 2, 8, 10 and 19. Also it is stated clearly that Paul received the Holy Spirit and was baptised in Acts with no mention of tongues; however it is written in 1 Corinthians that he did speak in ton


 

 I am wondering whether Paul spoke in tongues or filled with the Holy Spirit is relevant here. Maybe he was, maybe not. The fact is, I can't tell as I wasn't there at the time. My view of the scriptures is very radically different now as a result of 18years in the RCI and  my own personal experiences and relationship with God during the last 5 years since I left.

To me, the scriptures are accounts and records of experiences and histories from men. No doubt they were inspired by the Holy Ghost as I am (and I still speak in tongues). However, having to be told by other men that one will speak in tongues when one receives the Holy Spirit doesn't wash with me. On the day of Pentecost (and other historians have recorded this event), the people who were awaiting the promise were not forewarned that they would speak in tongues when the Holy Spirit fell upon them. It happened as a result of the infilliing of the Spirit. It stands to reason  it should still be the same way today.

I still enjoy reading the scriptures and I do find them inspiring but to say it is the Word of God is hard to reason. Perhaps I am missing something that others may have experienced, but whatever it is, I do know my own experience. Jesus said to His disciples that He would send the Comforter (Holy Spirit) to guide us to all truth, not a book or a set of rules. I only say this because like most people who post here and for thousands of others over the years, application of these rules from this book by men who have only a limited amount of experience has caused much pain, agony, heartache and suffering. Is this what our Lord wanted for His people? I think not.

Since I have shaken off the shackles of organised religion, Inow have a far better relationship with God than I ever could have imagined while in the RCI. Sure, I still make mistakes, some beauties, but I know that despite that, He loves me more than I will ever understand in this life and I thank God for that.

 

 

exReadBiblist
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Re:William Booth Spoke in Toungues.

Date Posted:18/09/2005 9:06 PMCopy HTML




yeah blah blah. so is yours.



My gumboot theology? Flawed... noooooooooooooooo, gee (blah blah... is that tongues... can you type in tongues now? Gee that'd save a lot of breathe)

I've been a habitual lier for all these years huh? I really didn't know I was faking it. It struck me after 16 years that I was making up these sounds and that they were'nt really incredibly supernatural. I don't think anyone finds them to be supernatural, I honestly think if u dare to think about it you'll notice that these aren't MAGIC sounds you're making with any syntax at all...

but on the off chance that I'm wrong (it happened once... yeah yeah) then I must say that I envy the amazing experience you have had and that I was robbed of. Obviously the guy who was authenticating my tongue after I came out of the baptismal tank was in error and is now in serious trouble with God.

"All I do is knock tongues" - Hey I did it for many an hour for many years... I appreciate how relaxing it can be. Sorry to be seen as to be trying to blow down your cardboard house. STicky tape will fix it up. I'm sure no one is getting hurt by your chanting and it's good for meditation and I'm sure the spirit within you is getting a message out there with it because when u speak in an unknown tongue you speak to god for no man understandeth you... unless... they do. surprise surprise i bet your spirit can even get a message out there even if you dont move your lips... it cracks me up this logic... it really does, and is so fun to hypothesize... have you tried humming in the spirit. does your mouth have to be open? can you do it without moving your tongue or is any mouth sound ok?  

I'm sorry for scrutizing such an incredible miracle but heck, if it's absolute proof of the infilling of the awesome and mighty power of the universe-building Holy Spirit then it must hold up to some close attention. IF it is proof... on the other hand it could just be a sound you are making to try and make yourself part of the gang.

If I've been a habitual lier and have not ever truly received the Holy Spirit because I didnt feel the earth shake when I said hahahlieyoagibidabiddigea then may God have mercy on my unsaved soul... I'm nor really worried though. Apart from the condescending pretentiousness I am exuding here I feel pretty blessed and saved... I'm sorry I can't help it... if you hang around an ex-Rev room you're gonna get us stange nutters who knock tongues a bit. but i remember so well how annoying it was to speak to us when I used to be u... so again I apologise.

 

[LINK SiteName=Mothrust: Movies and Modern Myth Target=_blank]http://aintchristian.blogspot.com.au/[/LINK] Be nice, for everyone that you meet is fighting a harder battle - Anita Roddick
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Re:William Booth Spoke in Toungues.

Date Posted:19/09/2005 10:20 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : exReadBiblist

Reply to : Brett [Anonymous]Reply to : Anonymous.But considering Mark 16... The RC'sprooftext "tongues" from Mark 16 to justify their belief of the evidence of the infilling of the Holy Spirit and in the same breath deny "casting out demons" and in most instances deny that demons exist.... Tongues isoneof the signs- I agree there but Jesus (who is the word of God) clearly stated that "ye shallreceive power- dunamis when theI agree with you aboutthat Mark 16 doesn't say that everybody must speak in tongues. Also those verses are disputed. But there is a strong case for that belief in Acts 2, 8, 10 and 19. Also it is stated clearly that Paul received the Holy Spirit and was baptised in Acts with no mention of tongues; however it is written in 1 Corinthians that he did speak in ton

Hi exReadBiblist...

Here is a quote from a well known website, pleaseconsider and the author is a former RCI Pastor...

"

Over my time, I have heard some pretty 'hyped-up' sessions. As the new prospect gets faster and faster with their alleluia, the helpers get faster and louder with their tongue, while encouraging and pushing the new prosect along harder and harder. A typical session may go as follows, keeping in mind a number of tongues running in the background (new prospect in red, helpers in blue)

"alleluia alleluia alleluia, that's it, just praise the Lord, alleluia alleluia alleluia, focus on the Lord, just ask him, allelu allelu allelu, if you feel your tongue change, don't fight it, just let it go, arla arla arla, that's it keep it going, just let it go, harla harla harla, relax and think about the Lord, la la la la da da da da................."

If the new convert makes it to tongues, the group acceptance and change of attitude toward the person is instantaneous and significant. The sense of inclusion is also both significant and apparent, 'salvation' has come to this lost sinner and the tongues 'proves it'. Unfortunately though for the individual concerned, they may just have lost their sense of Christian objectivity forever as well as their ability to survive outside a 'tongues' group. "

"

Exreadbiblist, I have have personally seen the above practice countless times myself and as the author states, this is nothing but hype and this is typical non-biblical RCI practice.... I don't think either Charles Finney or William & Catherine Booth said their "alleluias" to receive the Holy Spirit LOL LOL I don't think so... If you read Charles Finneys Revival Lectures, you find very heavy emphasis on repentance... 

( to Pastor Wrongfield, the source of the quote is noted to avoid plagiarism and copyright issues and is relevant to the argument as a scholarly and orderly debate)  ..

anon

 

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Re:William Booth Spoke in Toungues.

Date Posted:19/09/2005 11:50 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : Pastor Wrongfield

Reply to : Anonymous( to Pastor Wrongfield, the source of the quoteis noted to avoid plagiarism and copyright issues and is relevant to the argument as a scholarly and orderly debate)..Um...ok. Why are you telling ME that?

No problems, I thought that the source I that I quoted from was a sore point of past friction and associations etc etc...  and etc

anon  

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Re:William Booth Spoke in Toungues.

Date Posted:21/09/2005 8:09 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : Anonymous

Reply to : exReadBiblistReply to : Brett [Anonymous]Reply to : Anonymous.But considering Mark 16... The RC'sprooftext "tongues" from Mark 16 to justify their belief of the evidence of the infilling of the Holy Spirit and in the same breath deny "casting out demons" and in most instances deny that demons exist.... Tongues isoneof the signs- I agree there but Jesus (who is the word of God) clearly stated that "ye shallreceive power- dunamis when theI agree with you aboutthat Mark 16 doesn't say that everybody must speak in tongues. Also those verses are disputed. But there is a strong case for that belief in Acts 2, 8, 10 and 19. Also it is stated clearly that Paul received the Holy Spirit and was baptised in Acts with no mention of tongues; however it is written in 1 Corinthians that he did speak in ton

Hi Anonymous

Thank you for your advice. The author of that site pleaseconsider is a very good friend of mine. In fact, we have both discussed these issues quite some time ago when the site was first established.

All I am saying is I believe that God deals with each of us as individuals, not as groups. I speak in tongues and still do although I abhor organisational religion. I have also seen pastors and others forcing people young and old to make some form of noise and declaring the person was now spirit filled and subsequently could join the club. I know of people who have faked tongues just to get a seal of approval.

Personally, I don't care who argues about this, that and the other whether written in books or otherwise. I am not interested in what someone did or didn't do ages ago. I have found peace in the Lord and no one is going to break that peace no matter how well versed they are in scripture. The Word of God is the only thing that matters to me. (not some pages from some ancient manuscript).

 

 

exReadBiblist
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Re:William Booth Spoke in Toungues.

Date Posted:23/09/2005 12:20 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : exReadBiblist


All I am saying is I believe that God deals with each of us as individuals, not as groups. I speak in tongues and still do although I abhor organisational religion. I have also seen pastors and others forcing people young and old to make some form of noise and declaring the person was now spirit filled and subsequently could join the club. I know of people who have faked tongues just to get a seal of approval.


Yep too right but you know I remember how the local RCI pastor would get up behind his pulpit and berate other "pentecostal" for pushing people over in the prayer line and yet they are grossly guilty of committing a similar SIN with faking the gift of tongues.. Yes the RCI are in sin!! I suppose it is a case of the pot calling the kettle black LOL ....  I suppose in the "bigger picture" the real RCI doctrinal failure begins with their complete lack of accountability on all points especially the Word itself.  (Although I don't completely agree with the theological stances of the owners of Pleaseconsider, at least they place themselves in a position of accountabilty to the Word of God.)

As far as "organisational" religion goes, there are some real benefits in fellowshipping with other like minded christians such as boosting your personal growth in your relationship with Jesus.. Yep God will lead you into His pastures...

 

anon    

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