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glossolalia
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Date Posted:12/11/2009 11:35 AMCopy HTML


I was brought up in the Lord and fellowshipped in Adelaide my whole life. God and the Revival Fellowship meant the world to me. My entire being was devoted to God. Life would not have been worth living outside the fellowship (nor would I have thought it possible).

As I grew up in Sunday School and Bible Class I started asking questions. Over time I stockpiled the questions I didn't find thoroughly convincing answers to. These questions were doctrinal and related to the necessity of tongues, baptism, God, Bible numerics, Hell, Bible prophesy, compatibility with world religions etc

Things intensified in high school and then again during Uni as I was exposed to other worldviews that were less supernatural but seemed to make more sense. The list of questions grew as my allowed-to-think-area of my brain shrunk.

The straw that finally broke the camels back was evolution. The realization that I was not the center of the universe, both literally and figuratively, and the fact I was no different to any other species who is born and then dies without "meaning" or "purpose" hit me hard.

I tried speaking with several Pastors and their responses (although curt) always came back to faith (the stuff you hope is true without evidence).

The whole process of falling away was long and drawn-out, as I tried to reconcile God with reason whilst also trying to be honest with myself and other members.

I left last month. I longer believe in anything that requires faith or is supernatural in nature but rather only in things that can be proved rationally.

The questions that led me to leave the fellowship and Christianity are documented here: www.whyilefttherevivalfellowship.com


[URL]http://www.whyilefttherevivalfellowship.com[/URL]
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Re:Why I left TRF and Christianity - Evolution

Date Posted:12/11/2009 8:58 PMCopy HTML

Glossolali,


I left last month. I longer believe in anything that requires faith or is supernatural in nature but rather only in things that can be proved rationally.

The questions that led me to leave the fellowship and Christianity are documented here: www.whyilefttherevivalfellowship.com

You have had an interesting journey. I like your blog. I think the questions you ask are pertinent, and cannot be left unasked by anyone with a brain. Some of them have no answers. We are supposed to accept that it is God's world and he can kick us around however he likes, punish us for a nature we were born with and have no choice about. 

I don't believe God is like that at all, even though there are some who try and present him that.

For me, there are too many inconsistencies within Christianity. Five years of working in a christian organisation with various kinds of christians just highlighted for me that christians are no different from anyone else, even though in my mind they are "supposed" to be. I witnessed the same bitching, power plays, meanness, legalism, self righteousness, nastiness, looking down upon others I had witnessed in any workplace. Take out the swearing and there WAS no difference. There was a surface committment to being godly, but very little depth to it. There were a few notable exceptions of people who were gold, but they were the humble ones whose lives were committed to others, not their own selfish ambition. When everythng was going well, it was all good. The minute the shit hit the fan, they simply didn't know what to do behind their painted on smiles and their god is in control mantra. My experience of christians is they dont know what to do with difficult people or difficult situations so they find a scapegoat and label it ungodly. To watch christians do this to children from abusive backgrounds made my blood boil. When there was trouble between christian and non christian children, they always believed the christian child, even when it was as plain as the nose on their face they were being deceptive.

The obvious underlying thing is that a lot of christians do believe they are a cut above the rest.

I am getting to the point now where I have had a gutful of (RUDE ARROGANT LEGALISTIC AND JUST PLAIN MEAN CHRISTIANS - NOT THE KIND HUMBLE TYPE WHO DONT HAVE TO RAM STUFF DOWN YOUR THROAT AND TELL YOU THAT YOU ARE RUBBISH TYPE)christians. Haven't been to church in five years because I cannot cope with the moral superiority coupled with no real depth of care for others. Christ hung around with losers for a good reason. Having hung around revival for nine years and a pente church for 10 I am really beginning to understand why he gave the religious types a miss and started his own tribe.

I love god with a passionate intensity and have since I first met him at nine, well before revival. Getting booted out of revival and nasty experiences with christians have still not killed it, which is a miracle in itself.

So tell me glossolali, how do you feel about god in the depths of your soul? Did you ever feel differently? I mean what was in your heart toward him, not what anyone else told you to believe.
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Re:Why I left TRF and Christianity - Evolution

Date Posted:12/11/2009 11:49 PMCopy HTML

Good morning, "Gloss".

I enjoyed reading your post (and your blog), and there is just the one point I'd like to respond to now:

I [no] longer believe in anything that requires faith or is supernatural in nature but rather only in things that can be proved rationally.

Well this admission being the case, surely you would ardently want to become a Christian, wouldn't you? After all Christianity is as rational and as logical as is any alternative world-view, including the one proposed by the scientific-materialists! Consider, "faith" isn't limited to simply the overt religions; it's just as necessary an element if one is to  believe in, say, macro-evolution.

Blessings,

Ian
email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:Why I left TRF and Christianity - Evolution

Date Posted:13/11/2009 12:01 AMCopy HTML

Hi G

I can certainly appreciate you becoming disilluioned with the nonsense of RF teaching, but might I suggest to you that Christianity isn't the nonsense they preach.

If you're open to the *possibility* that you *might* be wrong you would likely find value looking at the websites of Ravi Zacharias and the American Scientific Affiliation. The former is an eloquent Christian philosopher. The latter is a group of highly qualified scientists who maintain that biblical Christianity *is* true ... and don't hold to 6 day, young earth creationism and many do promote macro-evolution.

By the way, are you aware that many supposedly "rational" believers in naturalism actually base their beliefs on self-contradictory ideas such as "logical positivism" and "scientism".
The evidence for Mann-made global warming is unequivocal.
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Re:Why I left TRF and Christianity - Evolution

Date Posted:13/11/2009 3:30 AMCopy HTML

Talmid,

Love Ravi Zacharias. Have his books Can Man Live Without God and Deliver Us From Evil. Excellent.

Chips,

Re your comment on the cbox

My intent is not to offend but point out some of the uncomfortable things that go on in the world. I don't entirely understand why those things make people uncomfortable. They happen, and they are wrong. Im sure you know the quote about good men doing nothing. I am a very sensitive person, things affect me deeply and I really dislike it when bad stuff goes on and people pretend it doesn't. Neither do I understand why grown adults who have clearly been around the block more than once are offended by "bad" language. And if you are offended by aggression, why are you not offended by everyone here who is aggressive? Christians are allowed to get angry you know.

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Re:Why I left TRF and Christianity - Evolution

Date Posted:13/11/2009 4:18 AMCopy HTML

Galien

I feel that a person who has so recently left Revival and who may be feeling sensitive and vulnerable would need something like understanding and gentleness as they find their way, lose friends and perhaps family, and try to move on. Perhaps even encouragement to seek to be a Christian, in the correct sense, in good time.

For instance: saying you're had a gutful of Christians but that you love god with such a passion .... which God, then, do you believe in?   

If I say I'm confused it only means you will feel obligated to enlighten me ... and I don't think I could take another explanation, I really don't.

Chips

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Re:Why I left TRF and Christianity - Evolution

Date Posted:13/11/2009 6:56 AMCopy HTML

 Yes it is an imperative (i.e a command), second person present passive and in essence it is commanding you plural, which is referring to the church gathering or body, to be persuaded by your leaders.

..... But as of late with the Duker scandal, if my leader was an RCI pastor, my conscience would prohibit me from keeping that command but then I am not part of the RCI and I speak in schooled hindsight. Also my consideration of the RF is that of a mere RCI splinter but despite there being different leaders governing in two bodies that are neither different theologically and speak the same nonsense and practice the same legalism, I cannot separate them at all.

blessings

M. 
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Re:Why I left TRF and Christianity - Evolution

Date Posted:14/11/2009 2:59 AMCopy HTML

I no longer believe in anything that requires faith or is supernatural in nature but rather only in things that can be proved rationally.

Well this admission being the case, surely you would ardently want to become a Christian, wouldn't you? After all Christianity is as rational and as logical as is any alternative world-view




I fail to see how Christianity is a logical worldview.

  • Is it logical to have an invisible friend who talks to you and grants you wishes?

  • Is it logical to believe in magical incantations like “amen” or “in the name of Jesus”?

  • Is it logical to admire someone who, according to his only, man-edited, holy book, commanded genocide, rape, and baby-killing?

  • Is it logical to believe in magical stories of a talking bush, a talking snake, a woman turning into salt, people being healed by a shadow, and God throwing rocks from the sky?

Faith = suspended intellect.

This is the same "faith" that believes that a cosmic Jew who was his own father by a virgin can enable you to live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh, drink his blood and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from something invisible called your soul that is present because a woman made from a rib was convinced by a talking snake to eat an apple from a magical tree.

Here are a couple of interesting YouTube videos:

10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer

& Why Christianity Fails


[URL]http://www.whyilefttherevivalfellowship.com[/URL]
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Re:Why I left TRF and Christianity - Evolution

Date Posted:14/11/2009 3:27 AMCopy HTML

I harbour neither bitterness, nor malice. I just tell the truth of my story, to the glory of god.

Met a christian friend today I havent seen in a while. She asked me along to an orthodox church tomorrow night, and I am going. We have both purposed in our hearts not to let ANYONE rob us of our faith ever again.
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Re:Why I left TRF and Christianity - Evolution

Date Posted:14/11/2009 4:14 AMCopy HTML

 Hi Glossolaliator,
If you no longer wish to beleive in anything that requires faith, you are setting out on a very prickly journey. You will need to abandon all faith in anything. Is this even logically possible? Maybe if one can re-incarnate into the form of an amoeba? Interesting times ahead ;) 
Gotta run.
SinTaxError (aka Mr Laarde Cryptical Baakit wink wink)
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Re:Why I left TRF and Christianity - Evolution

Date Posted:14/11/2009 6:03 AMCopy HTML

Hi, "Gloss".

I fail to see how Christianity is a logical worldview.

Okay. But have you honestly investigated (1) biblical Christianity, or simply misinterpretations of the same? And (2) do you fully understand what is intended by the term "logic"? In other words, are you sufficiently well versed in philosophy and philosophical hermeneutics to be able to denounce the Christian world-view as being somehow "illogical"?

Is it logical to have an invisible friend who talks to you and grants you wishes?

Hmmm. Are you describing Aladin's genie? Or are you seeking to parody God?


Is it logical to believe in magical incantations like “amen” or “in the name of Jesus”?

Magical incantations? "Amen" is naught but the Hebrew expression for, "let it be according to your (i.e. God's) will".  And praying "in the name of Jesus" is to offer prayers in the expectation that they will be mediated through our Great High Priest, Jesus Christ.

Is it logical to admire someone who, according to his only, man-edited, holy book, commanded genocide, rape, and baby-killing?

Please let me know whether or not you're prepared to have your understanding on each of the above points challenged, okay? You might be surprised at what results.

Is it logical to believe in magical stories of a talking bush, a talking snake, a woman turning into salt, people being healed by a shadow, and God throwing rocks from the sky?

Is it "logical" to disbelieve such accounts for no other reason than such don't adhere to a mechanistic, materialistic and altogether naive (and I'd suggest, untested) presupposition? One that proffers that the "Principal of Analogy" is the "be-all, end-all" determiner of reality?  

Faith = suspended intellect.

Nope. Faith = suspended disbelief.

This is the same "faith" that believes that a cosmic Jew who was his own father by a virgin can enable you to live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh, drink his blood and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from something invisible called your soul that is present because a woman made from a rib was convinced by a talking snake to eat an apple from a magical tree.

Really? According to whom?

Finally, if you found the "10 questions" video convincing, then I can only assume that you're not really into "critical" or "logical" thinking. But if you believe otherwise then I'd be more than happy to discuss (or debate) each of those 10 propositions, in turn, with you. I reckon it would be fun, seeing just how open minded you are to issues of "truth"


Blessings,

Ian

email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:Why I left TRF and Christianity - Evolution

Date Posted:14/11/2009 6:09 AMCopy HTML

Galien,

Well good for you! Just watch out for all those "two-faced", "miserable", "power-hungry", "ego-centered", "mysogynistic" and "legalistic" Christians that you rage on (and on, and on, and ...) about. You just might be surprised to discover that your perception doesn't equal reality.

Who knows, your visit might even result in your conversion to Christianity!

Here's hoping

Ian

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Re:Why I left TRF and Christianity - Evolution

Date Posted:14/11/2009 10:01 AMCopy HTML

Reply to brolga

To glossolalia,

The link, 10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer, just tells me that the orator is a totally ignorant and uninformed individual on things of the God whom he despises.


Here Ralph and Ian, this should tone you up. (Sorry the you tube isn't working so you will just have to follow link).

That's My King


Charis

.Eric

PS here is a better version

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Re:Why I left TRF and Christianity - Evolution

Date Posted:14/11/2009 10:21 AMCopy HTML

Hi, Eric.

Actually, the "That's My King" clip reminds us of several points which atheists often forget or ignore. For example both Western and Eastern culture owes its existence and development to Christianity.
We can enjoy the pursuit of philosophy, science, medicine, art, architecture, literature and music to name but a few disciplines, only because of Christianity and Christians. In fact the practice of education itself was a gift from the Church.

And what of the other world religions? How many people are aware that Buddhism, for example, owes a significant debt to Christian learning and scholarship? It was a Nestorian Christian Bishop who first translated the Buddhist scriptures from Sanskrit into Chinese, and gifted them to the Khan who set about copying and distributing them throughout China. How many people are aware that Islam, to consider another example, owes a significant debt to Christian learning and scholarship. It was due to the influence of missionaries from the Christian Church of the East that Mohammad came to learn of 'Isa (i.e. Jesus) and his demand for compassion towards one's enemies. These teachings (the Injil) were later enshrined within the Qur'an, an act which directly led to Islam's considerable tolerance towards the followers other monotheistic faiths until relatively recent times.

I could go on.

Unfortunately, those who seek to diminish the positive impact of Christianity upon the world are generally those who are most ignorant of the actual facts. 

Blessings,

Ian

email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:Why I left TRF and Christianity - Evolution

Date Posted:14/11/2009 10:46 AMCopy HTML

Reply to Didaktikon

(Message edited by Didaktikon On 14/11/2009 04:33:50)


Yes I'm about to settle down to reading "Introduction to New Testament Textual Criticism - J. Harold Greenlee" before calling it a night and I chanced upon this comment on page 14:

" The roll form of book would involve obvious difficulties for reading through a work in several sittings, and especially would involve difficulties for reference purposes. There was even a proverb, " A great book, a great evil." This difficulty of reference became particularly acute in regard to the Christian scriptures. As a result, Christianity exercised the greatest single influence in bringing about the use of the codex book form and the displacement of the roll.."

Charis soi

Eric

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Re:Why I left TRF and Christianity - Evolution

Date Posted:14/11/2009 10:57 AMCopy HTML

Eric,

Yes indeed, Christianity also gave the world the book!

Blessings,

Ian

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Re:Why I left TRF and Christianity - Evolution

Date Posted:14/11/2009 11:39 PMCopy HTML

Glossolali,

10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer


& Why Christianity Fails

I liked these. Looked at a couple of others of Hitchins and Dawkins, who from my point of view are just more silly men who think they know everything, but back it up with science. One thing I have learned about their ilk of person is that it doesn't matter what they use to get attention and recognition, they will find something.

Debates between them and christian diehards amount to a gigglefest in my opinion. I think there are valid points on both sides. Having said that though I think that humans will use whatever they can including religion  to justify some very evil things. They will continue to do it as long as they are allowed to get away with it.

For me being a christian has always been more about personal growth, learning humility and love, and what I can put back into the world than it has about mincing words over obscure scriptures or running around telling others how wrong they are.

If you cannot find a personal faith after leaving revival, that is fair enough. I don't particularly an either/or split between faith and reason. I'm 48, I have been in the world long enough to know life is nowhere near that cut and dried, or that black and white.

What matters is that you find yourself and find some peace after revival , and it sounds like you are well on the way there.  Go you!
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Re:Why I left TRF and Christianity - Evolution

Date Posted:15/11/2009 12:54 AMCopy HTML

Galien,

I liked these. Looked at a couple of others of Hitchins and Dawkins, who from my point of view are just more silly men who think they know everything, but back it up with science. One thing I have learned about their ilk of person is that it doesn't matter what they use to get attention and recognition, they will find something.

Perhaps it's the case that proponents on both sides of the Atheist/Christian debate place a higher premium on issues of establishing the "truth" than do you? Perhaps it's the case that you lack the intellectual or philosophical or spiritual capacity necessary to discern "what's what?" with respect to the issue? I doubt "Gloss" does.

Debates between them and christian diehards amount to a gigglefest in my opinion. I think there are valid points on both sides. Having said that though I think that humans will use whatever they can including religion  to justify some very evil things. They will continue to do it as long as they are allowed to get away with it.

I bet you giggle when someone says, "penis" too


For me being a christian has always been more about personal growth, learning humility and love, and what I can put back into the world than it has about mincing words over obscure scriptures or running around telling others how wrong they are.

I couldn't have provided a better, more concise summary that explains why I doubt that you're a Christian if I tried! "Personal growth"? "Learning humility and love"? "What you can put back into the world"? Delete "Christian", insert "vegetarian", or "AMWAY supporter", or "Greenie". Each of these descriptors fits the criteria and the context of your position far more appropriately than does the epithet, "Christian".

What matters is that you find yourself and find some peace after revival , and it sounds like you are well on the way there.  Go you!

Again, I'd be very surprised if "Gloss" agrees with your assessment, the truth be told, given that he left what he believes was Christianity for intellectual/philosophical reasons. And speaking as a Christian, to someone who claims to being a Christian, I was surprised that you were so quick to dismiss the central issue of "truth" from the entire equation: "what matters most is that you find some peace after revival". A Christian would surely put things differently, more along the lines of: "what matters most is that you find peace with God after leaving Revival." The issue that prompted "Gloss's" departure, the issue that prompts Christian mission efforts the world over, is one of establishing what is the truth. Ultimate truth. In the Gospel According to John (14:6) we find Jesus making the following unashamed truth-claims: "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

This is what sits at the heart of Christianity; not your "self-improvement" or "self-actualisation" nonsense
 

Goose.

Ian

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Re:Why I left TRF and Christianity - Evolution

Date Posted:15/11/2009 5:01 AMCopy HTML

I liked these. Looked at a couple of others of Hitchins and Dawkins, who from my point of view are just more silly men who think they know everything, but back it up with science. One thing I have learned about their ilk of person is that it doesn't matter what they use to get attention and recognition, they will find something.

Perhaps it's the case that proponents on both sides of the Atheist/Christian debate place a higher premium on issues of establishing the "truth" than do you? Perhaps it's the case that you lack the intellectual or philosophical or spiritual capacity necessary to discern "what's what?" with respect to the issue? I doubt "Gloss" does.

That is Gloss' prerogative. Im kind of glad I am a woman. I meet far fewer of those with the arrogance to believe they can establish truth. Usually we are much too busy doing the real work of life, like looking after the needs of others and building relationships, and THAT is our truth, not proving who has the biggest whatever. 

Debates between them and christian diehards amount to a gigglefest in my opinion. I think there are valid points on both sides. Having said that though I think that humans will use whatever they can including religion  to justify some very evil things. They will continue to do it as long as they are allowed to get away with it.

I bet you giggle when someone says, "penis" too

Nope, only when you tell me you can prove the existence of god.

For me being a christian has always been more about personal growth, learning humility and love, and what I can put back into the world than it has about mincing words over obscure scriptures or running around telling others how wrong they are.

I couldn't have provided a better, more concise summary that explains why I doubt that you're a Christian if I tried! "Personal growth"? "Learning humility and love"? "What you can put back into the world"? Delete "Christian", insert "vegetarian", or "AMWAY supporter", or "Greenie". Each of these descriptors fits the criteria and the context of your position far more appropriately than does the epithet, "Christian".

Guess it also explains why you have no real concept of love in action. You are just interested in being right and are still animalistic in the way you act in groups.

What matters is that you find yourself and find some peace after revival , and it sounds like you are well on the way there.  Go you!

Again, I'd be very surprised if "Gloss" agrees with your assessment, the truth be told, given that he left what he believes was Christianity for intellectual/philosophical reasons. And speaking as a Christian, to someone who claims to being a Christian, I was surprised that you were so quick to dismiss the central issue of "truth" from the entire equation: "what matters most is that you find some peace after revival". A Christian would surely put things differently,

A christian who has learnt how to repeat "right thinking" rote for the approval of their peers, not one whose brain is actually active.

more along the lines of: "what matters most is that you find peace with God after leaving Revival." The issue that prompted "Gloss's" departure, the issue that prompts Christian mission efforts the world over, is one of establishing what is the truth. Ultimate truth. In the Gospel According to John (14:6) we find Jesus making the following unashamed truth-claims: "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

Yes, and as I have said before I don't believe it is possible to prove there is a god. I BELIEVE that Jesus is the way the truth and the life but I cannot prove it. You BELIEVE it is an objective truth. Like I have always said Ian, its a head driven ego trip for you. Its a heart driven way of life for me.   

This is what sits at the heart of Christianity; not your "self-improvement" or "self-actualisation" nonsense

What sits at the heart of my love for god and others, is my love for god and others. I feel sad for you that your heart is not connected to your christianity.
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Re:Why I left TRF and Christianity - Evolution

Date Posted:15/11/2009 5:17 AMCopy HTML

Galien,

Well, as usual, yours is certainly an interesting "take" on matters. Given what you've shared, would it be fair of me to state that your position is that truth is relative, rather than absolute?

I find it interesting that you've stated, as you have done previously as well, that I'm "...only interested in being right..." If truth is relative, then the categories of "right" and "wrong" lose all their semantic force and inherent meaning. But if truth is absolute, then I'm "right" in what I assert, and it necessarily follows that you're "wrong" in what you assert! Concerning the former your opinion becomes a nonsense; if the latter, then your opinion is, well, still a nonsense! But you'd go on believing that you're entitled to it, wouldn't you?


Goose.

Ian

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Re:Why I left TRF and Christianity - Evolution

Date Posted:15/11/2009 5:42 AMCopy HTML

Well, as usual, yours is certainly an interesting "take" on matters. Given what you've shared, would it be fair of me to state that your position is that truth is relative, rather than absolute?

Some truths are absolute. I fully expect the sun to rise tomorrow. With regard to questions of belief, I no longer believe that kind of truth is objective, no.

I find it interesting that you've stated, as you have done previously as well, that I'm "...only interested in being right..." If truth is relative, then the categories of "right" and "wrong" lose all their semantic force and inherent meaning.

That is the probolem with you Ian, you assume that all these concepts mean the same to you as they do to everyone else. Not everyone believes in absolute truth, but you address life as though they do, because you think they SHOULD. Leaves no room for any other experience of life than yours.

But if truth is absolute, then I'm "right" in what I assert,

Not necessarily, I have no idea how you come to that conclusion, other than the fect you believe you have the keys to absolute truth, which of course is only a belief on your part, and can never actually be proven, because despite the fact you think you can prove the existence of god with semantics, you actually cannot, and neither can anyone else.

and it necessarily follows that you're "wrong" in what you assert!

Not necessarily either

Concerning the former your opinion becomes a nonsense; if the latter, then your opinion is, well, still a nonsense! But you'd go on believing that you're entitled to it, wouldn't you?

I worked out quite some time ago Ian that apparently the only opinion anyone is entitled to is yours.
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Re:Why I left TRF and Christianity - Evolution

Date Posted:15/11/2009 5:58 AMCopy HTML

Galien,

"Some truths are absolute"? Does it follow, then, that there are other "truths" which aren't true?

That is the probolem with you Ian, you assume that all these concepts mean the same to you as they do to everyone else. Not everyone believes in absolute truth, but you address life as though they do, because you think they SHOULD. Leaves no room for any other experience of life than yours.

Here's a little lesson in semantics and propositional logic for you: "truth", by it's very definition mandates an absolute concept; one can't have a "truth" which isn't true just as one can't have a square circle.

But if truth is absolute, then I'm "right" in what I assert ...

Not necessarily, I have no idea how you come to that conclusion, other than the fect you believe you have the keys to absolute truth, which of course is only a belief on your part, and can never actually be proven, because despite the fact you think you can prove the existence of god with semantics, you actually cannot, and neither can anyone else.

Ahem. My statement, above, had nothing to do with proving the existence of God. What it was, however, was a very simple logical proposition, similar in structure to the following: white is white, not black. Therefore one can't logically posit a "white black". In logic this is known as the "law of the excluded middle".

... and it necessarily follows that you're "wrong" in what you assert!

Not necessarily either.

Really? You've already admitted that you didn't understand my earlier piece of very simple, propositional logic; yet because I've asserted that you're "wrong" you immediately respond with: "not necessarily". 'Yes', necessarily.

Concerning the former your opinion becomes a nonsense; if the latter, then your opinion is, well, still a nonsense! But you'd go on believing that you're entitled to it, wouldn't you?

I worked out quite some time ago Ian that apparently the only opinion anyone is entitled to is yours.

You didn't answer the question

Ian


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Re:Why I left TRF and Christianity - Evolution

Date Posted:15/11/2009 6:55 AMCopy HTML

Here's a little lesson in semantics and propositional logic for you: "truth", by it's very definition mandates an absolute concept; one can't have a "truth" which isn't true just as one can't have a square circle.

Hmmm interesting. So, if for me the truth is that you treat people here who don't agree with you badly for your own amusement, and I base that "truth" on observation, is it a truth?

Or is your "truth", that you don't do that, the actual truth?

If I show 20 people the things your write and 10 think like I do, but 10 think like you do, what is the truth of the situation?
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Re:Why I left TRF and Christianity - Evolution

Date Posted:15/11/2009 7:32 AMCopy HTML

Reply to Galien

Here's a little lesson in semantics and propositional logic for you: "truth", by it's very definition mandates an absolute concept; one can't have a "truth" which isn't true just as one can't have a square circle.

Hmmm interesting. So, if for me the truth is that you treat people here who don't agree with you badly for your own amusement, and I base that "truth" on observation, is it a truth?

Or is your "truth", that you don't do that, the actual truth?

If I show 20 people the things your write and 10 think like I do, but 10 think like you do, what is the truth of the situation?

Galien - a gentle hint sweety !!


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Re:Why I left TRF and Christianity - Evolution

Date Posted:15/11/2009 9:18 AMCopy HTML

Meta,

The master has given me a sock! Does that mean I am no longer your house elf?

We both know I'm on my way out the door. You think this circular crap doesn't drive me nuts too? I would just like to know what Ian thinks. He started the convo after all. But it does bring the whole thing down to brass tacks really.

I'm sure in my absence there will be someone else to denigrate. Ian has already mentioned he likes proving me wrong to prove his own points, which is of course the only reason I am still here. Just a shame that some have lost their sense of humour.

I tell you what Meta, hows about introducing a topic that keeps me awake. Now there's a challenge for ya.
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Re:Why I left TRF and Christianity - Evolution

Date Posted:15/11/2009 9:25 AMCopy HTML

Galien,

Your responses are certainly interesting, insofar that you continually assume that "opinion" necessarily equals "truth". But let's make this discussion even more interesting. Let's see you answer my earlier question. How about it?

Goose.

Ian

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Re:Why I left TRF and Christianity - Evolution

Date Posted:15/11/2009 9:31 AMCopy HTML

You know as well as I do Ian that there is no point of agreement on what truth is. Bring it to me in the bottom of a bucket where I can poke at it, let me watch it rise in the morning, then it is the truth. Everything else is an opinion, whether it is labelled truth or not.

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Re:Why I left TRF and Christianity - Evolution

Date Posted:15/11/2009 11:44 AMCopy HTML

Galien,

Curiouser and curiouser. So you subscribe to the very same materialist view of reality as does the atheist crowd, huh?

How very interesting 

Ian

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Re:Why I left TRF and Christianity - Evolution

Date Posted:15/11/2009 7:37 PMCopy HTML

Ian,

Curiouser and curiouser. So you subscribe to the very same materialist view of reality as does the atheist crowd, huh?

Me subscribe to the idea of a crowd of any kind? Unlikely.

I am more interested in differences in perception. I am fascinated by the way we are socialised into believing certain things have certain meanings. I often find upon questioning others about why they think what they think, they often have no idea why they think it, or who taught them to think that way in in the first place. I get a lot of "everyone knows that", and "that is just the way it is". Well surely everything had to start somewhere. Where did it start, who started it, what keeps it that way?

I was told by a work colleague that "everyone" knows if you give a person a piece of elephant jewellery, and the elephant has its trunk down, you are wishing the owner bad luck. How can I have gone through all these years of living and not known that? Apparently the fact I don't believe in bad luck, or the fact that because "everyone knows" it MUST be true has no bearing on me having to accept such superstition.

Athiests are entited to their opinion like everyone else. Their "religion" for want of a better word, is reason. Clearly, having believed in a god whose existence I cannot prove for most of my life, I am not entirely shackled to the material. I live my life in abstract concepts, but I accept they are perceptions, philosophies and concepts. Gone (forever I hope) are the days when I stood there with THE christian truth wrapped up in a pretty little bow making others feel like dirt if they didn't believe it the way I did. Watching the rabid right wing christians during the american election made me want to cry. I have rarely seen so much barely disguised hatred from those who are meant to worship a god says in his word, his apparently undisputed truth, that he is love.

For most of my christian experience I thought the way you think a christian "should". Life experience has taught me not everything is as it seems. I can no longer live my life based on the experiences and perceptions of people who see life through a hole the size of a 20c piece. Referring there to the writers and time period in which the bible was written. One of the most important parts of who I am is complete honesty which I believe to be the cornerstone of a real connection with god. That means I have to tell the truth about how I see things, even though it wins me SO many friends, and attracts SO much goodwill and support. 
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Re:Why I left TRF and Christianity - Evolution

Date Posted:15/11/2009 9:51 PMCopy HTML

Galien,

Curiouser and curiouser. So you subscribe to the very same materialist view of reality as does the atheist crowd, huh?

Me subscribe to the idea of a crowd of any kind? Unlikely.

Interesting. I could've sworn that you said, "... unless you can bring it to me in the bottom of a bucket where I can poke at it ..." etcetera, which is a materialist view of reality.

I am more interested in differences in perception. I am fascinated by the way we are socialised into believing certain things have certain meanings. I often find upon questioning others about why they think what they think, they often have no idea why they think it, or who taught them to think that way in in the first place. I get a lot of "everyone knows that", and "that is just the way it is". Well surely everything had to start somewhere. Where did it start, who started it, what keeps it that way?

I see. So because you don't like reality as it is, you feel the need to "perceive" it differently to everyone else? Such an admission goes a long way to explaining why you've sought to re-create Christianity in your own image. Don't like the biblical product ...

Athiests are entited to their opinion like everyone else.

If an opinion is presented as a statement of fact, i.e. as a "truth-claim", then it must be true in order to have merit or intrinsic worth. Atheists, Christians and Galiens don't have the right to be holding to, and promoting, opinions which are patently false. The English words used to describe such a situation are either "deception" or "delusion", depending on whether the person is simply ignorant, or willfully ignorant.

I live my life in abstract concepts, but I accept they are perceptions, philosophies and concepts.

I doubt it. You live your life just as "concretely" as does everyone else. If you didn't, if you lived your life in "abstract concepts" as you falsely claim, then you wouldn't rant and rave and disparage everyone who has the temerity to tell you that you're wrong   Furthermore, you wouldn't live your life being bound to the "concrete" realities which surround you: the need to work, the need to pay your bills, etc.

Gone (forever I hope) are the days when I stood there with THE christian truth wrapped up in a pretty little bow making others feel like dirt if they didn't believe it the way I did.

But you never had the Christian truth. You were a Revivalist and then a Pente; consequently, your beliefs were as wide of the "truth" mark as are "Lukie's". It almost presents as being the case that believing in the "wrong" things fairly defines your entire life. And that's sad, the truth be told.

For most of my christian experience I thought the way you think a christian "should". Life experience has taught me not everything is as it seems. I can no longer live my life based on the experiences and perceptions of people who see life through a hole the size of a 20c piece. Referring there to the writers and time period in which the bible was written.

Given what you've shared of your past, if there is one lesson that your life's experiences should've taught you, it would be this: you are not a particularly "good" judge of what is "truth". In point of fact, your "truth barometer" needs serious calibrating! Next, your comment regarding the context of the biblical writers simply reinforces my decidedly low opinion of your capacity to understand, analyse, and contextualise the biblical witness to proper effect.

One of the most important parts of who I am is complete honesty which I believe to be the cornerstone of a real connection with god.

Except for the many times when you lie, of course


That means I have to tell the truth about how I see things, even though it wins me SO many friends, and attracts SO much goodwill and support.

A closing thought for you to ponder: has the possibility ever crossed your mind that your perception simply ain't reality?

Goose.

Ian

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Re:Why I left TRF and Christianity - Evolution

Date Posted:15/11/2009 11:33 PMCopy HTML

Curiouser and curiouser. So you subscribe to the very same materialist view of reality as does the atheist crowd, huh?

Me subscribe to the idea of a crowd of any kind? Unlikely.

Interesting. I could've sworn that you said, "... unless you can bring it to me in the bottom of a bucket where I can poke at it ..." etcetera, which is a materialist view of reality.

I always find your need to categorise people and views and put them in a box that makes you comfortable interesting. Is it that you need to know where people fit into "the scheme of things" so you know where they fit in your internal pecking order?

I am more interested in differences in perception. I am fascinated by the way we are socialised into believing certain things have certain meanings. I often find upon questioning others about why they think what they think, they often have no idea why they think it, or who taught them to think that way in in the first place. I get a lot of "everyone knows that", and "that is just the way it is". Well surely everything had to start somewhere. Where did it start, who started it, what keeps it that way?

I see. So because you don't like reality as it is, you feel the need to "perceive" it differently to everyone else? Such an admission goes a long way to explaining why you've sought to re-create Christianity in your own image. Don't like the biblical product ...

Dude everyone has their own reality, I think deep down you know that. How can you even pretend to know how other people percerive things when you are not in their head. You really are chained to that one size fits all thing arent you?

Athiests are entited to their opinion like everyone else.

If an opinion is presented as a statement of fact, i.e. as a "truth-claim", then it must be true in order to have merit or intrinsic worth. Atheists, Christians and Galiens don't have the right to be holding to, and promoting, opinions which are patently false. The English words used to describe such a situation are either "deception" or "delusion", depending on whether the person is simply ignorant, or willfully ignorant.

Well you present your opinion as statement of fact. Just because a whole heap of biblical scholars threw their opinions on a book that they cannot prove is divinely inspired and chucked them into a university degree, does't make it any less an opinion Ian.

I live my life in abstract concepts, but I accept they are perceptions, philosophies and concepts.

I doubt it. You live your life just as "concretely" as does everyone else. If you didn't, if you lived your life in "abstract concepts" as you falsely claim, then you wouldn't rant and rave and disparage everyone who has the temerity to tell you that you're wrong   Furthermore, you wouldn't live your life being bound to the "concrete" realities which surround you: the need to work, the need to pay your bills, etc.

Of course I do the necessary.  Everyone who knows me though knows I spend a lot of time thinking about stuff that few others seem to think about or care about. Apparently I think too much. I think most people don't think enough, but its a free country.

And I find the whole ranting and raving charge amusing because dear you do exactly the same thing, but you do it with far greater sarcasm and easy dismissal of the opinions of others than I ever will.

Gone (forever I hope) are the days when I stood there with THE christian truth wrapped up in a pretty little bow making others feel like dirt if they didn't believe it the way I did.

But you never had the Christian truth. You were a Revivalist and then a Pente; consequently, your beliefs were as wide of the "truth" mark as are "Lukie's". It almost presents as being the case that believing in the "wrong" things fairly defines your entire life. And that's sad, the truth be told.

Well seeing I learned what being a christian was from the bible itself and Caringbah Baptist Church perhaps you should take the issue up with god and said church. The "wrong" things? My point exactly.

For most of my christian experience I thought the way you think a christian "should". Life experience has taught me not everything is as it seems. I can no longer live my life based on the experiences and perceptions of people who see life through a hole the size of a 20c piece. Referring there to the writers and time period in which the bible was written.

Given what you've shared of your past, if there is one lesson that your life's experiences should've taught you, it would be this: you are not a particularly "good" judge of what is "truth". In point of fact, your "truth barometer" needs serious calibrating! Next, your comment regarding the context of the biblical writers simply reinforces my decidedly low opinion of your capacity to understand, analyse, and contextualise the biblical witness to proper effect.

What I've shared of my past hey. How I practically brought up my three siblings due to an alcholic father and a mentally ill mother, with god's help. How I have overcome much abuse, gained an education, always had a job, adopted my sisters child and brought her up, allowed god to change me over and over again, cared about every human being I have come in contact with, how I have always maintained my honesty no matter how much trouble it got me in, been an advocate for mentally ill and physically disabled people because the christians around them found it all too hard etc etc. Yep, I'm a total cow I am.

You may freely understand, analyse and contexctualise all you like, but you STILL dont get that god is love Ian.

One of the most important parts of who I am is complete honesty which I believe to be the cornerstone of a real connection with god.

Except for the many times when you lie, of course

So you say. You are simply - wrong. You know, that thing you think everyone is but you.

That means I have to tell the truth about how I see things, even though it wins me SO many friends, and attracts SO much goodwill and support.

A closing thought for you to ponder: has the possibility ever crossed your mind that your perception simply ain't reality?

See above. You know Ian there are other realities besides yours and the one you try so hard to sell. Deal with it. You think a 12 year old crack whore on the streets of Chicago has the same reality as you? You really need to get out more.

Ian, I don't quote know how to break it to you but the general population of the world could care less what you think, and really don't accept that you are an expert on everything.


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Re:Why I left TRF and Christianity - Evolution

Date Posted:16/11/2009 12:04 AMCopy HTML

Galien,

I see. So we all get to invent our own little slice of reality, in which to "...live, move and have our being." Nice 

Well seeing I learned what being a christian was from the bible itself and Caringbah Baptist Church perhaps you should take the issue up with god and said church. The "wrong" things? My point exactly.

'Yes'. Given that in spite of you "learning" what "being" a Christian "was" from the Bible and Caringbah Baptist, you then went on to get sucked into Revivalism, and later, Pentecostalism! I guess you "learned" well, huh?

In closing, you really should try responding to what I actually say, rather than your interpretations of the same. Just a thought.

Goose.

Ian
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Re:Why I left TRF and Christianity - Evolution

Date Posted:16/11/2009 1:00 AMCopy HTML

John,

Ever watched one of those 1960s and 1970s French movies. You know the ones where everyone said "very deep and moving" but had no clue what it was all about? Galien is living a "Last Year in Marienbad" existence. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_Year_at_Marienbad

I always understand those movies. Its about being deep and arty farty. But I wouldn't expect you to understand.
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Re:Why I left TRF and Christianity - Evolution

Date Posted:16/11/2009 1:04 AMCopy HTML

Galien,

I see. So we all get to invent our own little slice of reality, in which to "...live, move and have our being." Nice 

As opposed to what, reality according to Ian Thomason that applies to everyone in the world?

Well seeing I learned what being a christian was from the bible itself and Caringbah Baptist Church perhaps you should take the issue up with god and said church. The "wrong" things? My point exactly.

'Yes'. Given that in spite of you "learning" what "being" a Christian "was" from the Bible and Caringbah Baptist, you then went on to get sucked into Revivalism, and later, Pentecostalism! I guess you "learned" well, huh?

Im sure all the ex revivals here who are now pentes will be delighted to know they are not "real" christians. I'd rather be a pente that subscribe to your view of christianity which still seems to me to be about half the story.

In closing, you really should try responding to what I actually say, rather than your interpretations of the same. Just a thought.

Well if it actually made any sense,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Prawn.

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Re:Why I left TRF and Christianity - Evolution

Date Posted:16/11/2009 1:06 AMCopy HTML

Eric,

Communuituies are built by submitting to authority? Since when?

And here was me thinking it was about genuine concern for and connection with others. Oh, wait, sorry - that's the way women would do it. Silly me.
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Re:Why I left TRF and Christianity - Evolution

Date Posted:16/11/2009 1:51 AMCopy HTML

Galien,

I note that you still read into my comments what you want to hear, rather than what I actually say. For example how did you misconstrue you going from Baptist to Revivalism to Pentecostalism (i.e. "orthodox" to heretical to heterodox); with others going from Revivalism to Pentecostalism  (i.e. heretical to heterodox)?! How could you misconstrue so badly given that the context of the point was your claim to having learned what was involved in being a Christian during your time in the "Baps"? If you had learned, as you claimed, then how on earth is it possible that you later got hoodwinked by Revivalism? Sorry, but your ability to comprehend the written word seems almost as loose as is your grasp of "truth".

Goose.

Ian

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Re:Why I left TRF and Christianity - Evolution

Date Posted:16/11/2009 2:08 AMCopy HTML


John,

Jingoistic misandry. The refuge of inadequate losers.

Begs the question then why you dive so quickly into misogyny if that is what you think.

Which women would they be you speak of that connect with others? Non-sexist caring Proverbs 31 women like my wife? Or sexist, selfish, self opinionated, foul mouthed, egostistic, self-pitying women like you?

Well seeing from the selection above probably only opinionated fits the bill in my case, I guess it would be women like your wife and like me.

What a sad, sad person you are.

Thanks.

You don't know who you believe, nor will you allow persuasion, because you have no commitment unto that day. So there? So where? Where are you? You "cherry-picked" from 2 Timothy 1:12, you could do well to read all of 2 Timothy (and 1 Timothy for that matter) and you'd learn a lot about church leadership, ministry and fellowship

I don't know who I believe? Really? Amazes me how you think you know what goes on in my head. You are a clever bunny arent you?

John, personally mate I think you need to go get some counselling. You and I both know why are so angry. Instead of picking fights with me that aren't helping you, go talk to someone.
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Re:Why I left TRF and Christianity - Evolution

Date Posted:16/11/2009 3:14 AMCopy HTML

Meta,

Me thinks you have a screw loose !!!

Well if i do, shrinks can't pick it. So either they are REALLY stupid or I am REALLY clever.

Perhaps Meta I am just a tenacious believer in love, with a major attitude problem and a wicked sense of humour (which sadly John cannot seem to understand). I suspect, as much as I hate to say it, that Ian is probably the only one who does understand it.
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Re:Why I left TRF and Christianity - Evolution

Date Posted:16/11/2009 3:22 AMCopy HTML

I enjoyed reading this fellows blog.

I have a question for Ian:

Let me just preface this by saying that I am still leaning towards a belief in God, but this belief is really nothing like it used to be. Since leaving the RF, I have had nothing but questions, questions that seem unanswerable.

One thing that always baffles me about your approach Ian is that you seem to argue points with a very specific theoretical framework. You would (most likely) say that your interest in the history of the word of God and your passion for finding the correct context for everything is God given, I would say that perhaps it is just your personality. When you say to someone like me 'perhaps you should look into the theology of the something something blah blah' I say to myself, 'this guy must be kidding'. Do you know why? It's because I'm incredibly lazy. There, I said it. I'm lazy. Is that God given? I was born lazy. I could not get through a 600 page book about the history of a certain passage or the theology that underpins this scripture yada yada yada. So what am I to do? Should I pray about it? I believe that throughout my years as a so-called 'spirit-filled' christian I prayed quite earnestly for understanding, and do you know what I understood? I understood everything I had been taught. I understood why I had to speak in tongues, why it was right that I was baptised. Do you know why I believed all of that to be true? Because that's the way I'd been taught to approach Jesus. I go to this site, all I read is argument upon argument and all I hear from you is either a very wise statement that gives me hope, or something about theology and this book and that book. I will never ever study those things, I have neither the time nor the patience. If God really wants me to get a PHD in Biblical theology just so I can try and understand the supposedly basic principles of Jesus, then I guess I'm going straight to hell. The ironic thing is, God made me. He made me this way, he made me so that theology bores me to tears. Believe me, I have tried before but it all seems so dry and I get no spiritual feeling from any of it. All it leaves me feeling is that God is really far away and that he's looking for someone very diligent.

This is where I struggle with a real solid belief in God. What about a guy who is sexually abused as a child. Lets say he grows up with several disorders as a result of his suffering. Lets say those disorders include voices in his head that tell him to kill someone. Lets say he does kill someone and then kills himself. What about this guy? His life was COMPLETELY governed by circumstance. That is where my mind does backflips. I was born into a church, therefore, I'm on here debating about things to do with God. If O wasn't born into the church, I'm pretty sure I would not be on this board. You are a rare breed Ian, you seem to have a VERY strong faith, and also the intellectual stamina to tackle these issues day in day out by studying and studying. What would you say to someone like me who admits that they could not have that approach. Is there a simple way to belief or are us mere average mortals doomed for eternity??
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Re:Why I left TRF and Christianity - Evolution

Date Posted:16/11/2009 4:04 AMCopy HTML

Hi, Riddler.

A couple of thoughts in response to your post: First, it's not my problem if you're too lazy to expend a bit of time and energy checking "things" out in order to make sense of what you believe or don't believe. Perhaps you were content being spoon-fed during your years in Revivalism? Well, look where it got you 

Second, I try to tailor my approach to the situation at hand. Consequently, if a discussion centres on establishing (or considering the merits of competing) philosophical "truth-claims", then my approach will lean towards being analytical and logical. However, if someone asks a question relating to issues of conscience, or points of personal doubt, then my approach will be more pastoral. It's a case of "horses for courses".

Third, theology simply defines "God-talk". If you think about God, then you are theologising whether you realise it or not. Your Revivalist past has given you a heaped tablespoon of bad theology. But the response/answer to bad theology isn't no theology; it's good theology. And it's a fact of life that one doesn't undo lazy/bad thinking by simply ignoring it. One has to engage in active/good thinking, which takes a modicum of effort. In summary, you don't need to be able to theologise at a professional level, but some of us in the Church do.

Fourth, from what you've shared I get the distinct impression that you aren't a part of a worshiping community of believers. If this is the case, then how on earth do you expect to learn anything about God? If you're too lazy to pick up some fairly simple books, and if you're too lazy to go to church, then how is that anyone's problem but yours?


Blessings,

Ian

email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:Why I left TRF and Christianity - Evolution

Date Posted:16/11/2009 5:28 AMCopy HTML

Ian,

To take it one step further in the honesty department, I would say that not only am I lazy, I'm also spineless and jump from opinion to opinion  which is usually dependent upon the last opinion I heard. Now, you may say 'it's not my fault you're spineless and lazy' and I would wholeheartedly agree with you. So the question is, who's fault is it? Who made me this way so as to prevent me from ever finding the truth for myself? My guess is you can really only blame two parties: my parents and the lazy and spineless genes I have contracted or the designer of the lazy and spineless genes.

Surely it's the creators fault that his creation hasn't been created to love and obey him and study the word to find his version of the truth? It kind of becomes circular the more you think about it. I honestly believe my post RF conversion would have to be divine, otherwise I'm just floating in a sea of opinions.

If I had it my way, I would look at the God of the Old testament and say 'wow, what horrible things he did, I can't believe in him even though I could be punished badly for it' but then I hear you say 'well actually, there is a perfectly logical reason based on solid theological principles to explain the genocide of the Old testament' and then I'm back at the same place I started. And that is, maybe their is a God? Maybe the contradictions can be explained? But it takes so much effort and if I can't doit, how is regular Joe the moron from number 2 going to work it out???
Didaktikon Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #41
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Re:Why I left TRF and Christianity - Evolution

Date Posted:16/11/2009 5:35 AMCopy HTML

Riddler,

Given your obvious antipathy, I don't think I'm the right person to be helping you. Best of luck.

Blessings,

Ian

email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:Why I left TRF and Christianity - Evolution

Date Posted:16/11/2009 5:41 AMCopy HTML

Ian,

Half of what I say is complete rubbish.

But can you do me one favor, can you sum up in one paragraph the genocide of the old testament and why it is acceptable or figurative or whatever you believe it to be.

If you give me something I can grasp, then perhaps I will investigate the books you suggest on the matter. But I need a bit of meat to start with.
Talmid Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #43
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Re:Why I left TRF and Christianity - Evolution

Date Posted:16/11/2009 7:44 PMCopy HTML

Hi R2

I'll jump in if I may, despite your apparent baiting.

1) Ian's already provided a theodicy here somewhere. CS Lewis' "The problem of evil" seems like another reasonable jumping off point.

2) Regarding your current state, you left out the possibility that you "were built with" the ability to overcome "laziness" and "spinelessness", as indicated by your awareness of those characteristics.

3) "The average Joe" comes to a point of humility and personal responsibility. I believe world-wide there's upwards of a billion of them who've done so.

4) From a biblical perspective conversion is *always* a result of God's initiation and empowering, and man's response.

5) If you're serious, you should attend "flesh meets" of Xians and Xian teachers.
The evidence for Mann-made global warming is unequivocal.
Didaktikon Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #44
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Re:Why I left TRF and Christianity - Evolution

Date Posted:16/11/2009 9:17 PMCopy HTML

Good morning, Talmid.

I wonder that you even bothered responding to our "Riddler"   Thus far he's used the following terms to describe himself, and his state, here: "MASS confusion and terror", "lazy", and "spineless". I suppose the adjective that he thinks describes me (and perhaps you, too) is "gullible"?

Blessings,

Ian

email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:Why I left TRF and Christianity - Evolution

Date Posted:16/11/2009 11:04 PMCopy HTML

Ian,

Gullible? That's me ... and somewhat naive, but I'm getting wiser. I figured my brief reply might at least benefit observers.
The evidence for Mann-made global warming is unequivocal.
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Re:Why I left TRF and Christianity - Evolution

Date Posted:18/11/2009 6:16 AMCopy HTML

Ian,

Now, you've taken my honesty and used it as an excuse to not answer my seemingly simple question. How do you explain the atrocities that occurred in the OT? Your natural evil and created evil theories are pleasant enough, but the issue still remains, your loving God slaughtered millions of innocent people as part of his divine plan. It is in our God given nature to feel that these things are not of a kind or loving nature.

You say that believing in macro level evolution is as daft as believing in the God of the Bible. I beg the differ, the evidence for evolution is overwhelming. Perhaps not completely concrete, but overwhelming, as I'm sure a man of your intellectual prowess already discovered . This is where revisionist history takes hold of the Church 'Oh, well, God actually did use evolution as a vehicle to further his species'. Rather than admitting the Bible is ambiguous by nature, and that perhaps a lot of it comes down to how you feel it should be interpreted, you seem to think it can all be calculated by study and complex inter-textual relationships from one verse to another.

You have used the words I have chosen on this forum to some how express the view that I am not worthy of your engagement.  I too have seen the words you use to describe yourself, 'one apt to teach?' You have asked the question 'what fruits have you shown in your life lately?' You have also, in an apparent humble manner, described how much time you dedicate to good community works and studying the bible three times a day. All of this talk reminds me of the entity you so vehemently oppose, the Revivalists. Your self righteous indignation and your arrogance is actually worse than many revival fellowship people I have come across in my time. Your theological responses to everything are NOTHING new, they have been around for a very long time. What you do is use your reputation on these boards and your intellectual arrogance to avoid answering peoples questions. You deem everything (even great arguments, as opposed to mine:)) beneath you, you take huge questions and turn them into straight laced theological debates that border on, quite frankly, intellectual masturbation in a public forum.  Anyway, I'm done.
Didaktikon Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #47
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Re:Why I left TRF and Christianity - Evolution

Date Posted:18/11/2009 9:24 AMCopy HTML

Riddler,

Sorry, but I'm not beholden to answering the questions of all and sundry; certainly not those from people who are self-professedly too lazy to do any research for themselves And given that you've stated that you believe me to be more self-righteous and arrogant than the Revivalists, I do wonder why it is that you (a) sought me out for advice and/or teaching to begin with, and (b) why you've thrown a little "tanty" because I've decided that I've better things to do with my time than respond to you? On my part, your latest mini-rant is "proof positive" that I was correct in my initial estimation of you and your motives.

There you go, I guess we can both rest content in our assessments of each other.

Goose.

Ian

 
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Re:Why I left TRF and Christianity - Evolution

Date Posted:18/11/2009 2:14 PMCopy HTML

Fremde,

Appearance of design is not proof of design. Does the sun orbit the Earth? Who is responsible for the "bad design"?

By plucking out a few paleontological Ken-Ham-isms you are overlooking comparative anatomy, DNA sequencing, embryonic development, island and continental biogeography, geographical distribution, genetics and the rather embarrassing fact that artificial and natural selection are observable facts of life!

Anyone who does not accept evolution has either not looked in to it or has deliberately chosen not to 'believe' it due to a conflict of interests.

Your suggestion that the fossil record isn't extensive enough surely overlooks the transitional fossils that do exist - given the Bible specifies species reproduce "after their own kind" (Genesis 1:20-25) Why are there intermediate species at all? Is God testing us?

You may find these Christian-penned pro-evolution books interesting:
http://www.amazon.com/Language-God-Scientist-Presents-Evidence/dp/1416542744
http://www.amazon.com/Finding-Darwins-God-Scientists-Evolution/dp/0061233501
http://www.amazon.com/Evolutionary-Creation-Christian-Approach-Evolution/dp/1556355815
http://www.amazon.com/Creation-Evolution-Do-Have-Choose/dp/0825462924

This YouTube video explains some popular misconceptions:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vss1VKN2rf8

These PDFs are downloadable on my site:
Why Evolution is True
Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution


[URL]http://www.whyilefttherevivalfellowship.com[/URL]
Didaktikon Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #49
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Re:Why I left TRF and Christianity - Evolution

Date Posted:18/11/2009 10:28 PMCopy HTML

Good morning, "Gloss".

Appearance of design is not proof of design. Does the sun orbit the Earth? Who is responsible for the "bad design"?

I could just as easily suggest to you that the appearance of "transitional forms" is not proof of "transitional forms". But what, precisely, constitutes "bad design" by your estimation? In other words, such is "bad" according to whom?

By plucking out a few paleontological Ken-Ham-isms you are overlooking comparative anatomy, DNA sequencing, embryonic development, island and continental biogeography, geographical distribution, genetics and the rather embarrassing fact that artificial and natural selection are observable facts of life!

I personally don't subscribe to Ken Ham's theories myself, but you might want to be careful of accusing John of the very same failing that he could quite rightly accuse you of: "plucking out a few" examples, and extrapolating the data well beyond what the scant/minimal evidence actually supports.

Anyone who does not accept evolution has either not looked in to it or has deliberately chosen not to 'believe' it due to a conflict of interests.

To begin with, such is naught but a silly, emotive and altogether uninformed statement. Consider the obvious rejoinder: anyone who does not accept Christianity has either not looked into it or has deliberately chosen not to "believe" due to a conflict of interests. You no doubt would agree that simply saying so doesn't necessarily make it so. Ergo, why should your claim be viewed any differently?

Your suggestion that the fossil record isn't extensive enough surely overlooks the transitional fossils that do exist - given the Bible specifies species reproduce "after their own kind" (Genesis 1:20-25) Why are there intermediate species at all? Is God testing us?

See my earlier comment. Who says that such are "intermediate" species to begin with? Faith-based supposition doesn't automatically equal concrete truth. And neither does a misunderstanding of what Genesis purports to teach.

Blessings,

Ian

email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:Why I left TRF and Christianity - Evolution

Date Posted:18/11/2009 11:43 PMCopy HTML

Ian,

Once again you have given a series of non-answers that, whilst on the surface appear to be compelling, are actually just banal christian rhetoric. You claim that fossil records of transitional species do not provide enough evidence to suggest that we evolved over time, what exactly do these fossils suggest in your mind then Ian?
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RCI prophesies
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