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Date Posted:05/07/2010 8:01 AMCopy HTML

This should explain things more clearly, It is 6 pages long, I'm happy for Uncoolman to present it in another way, all I could do is cut and past it from the word doc I just received. Reading this and looking things up for ourselves did open our eyes to the 1995 split, I'm not promoting Alf by putting this on here, but this was a great help to quite a few of us in opening our eyes and allowing us to see more clearly regarding this issue. THIS MADE SENSE. 

1.                                                                    

                                                                                    Pastor: Alfiero Neri  September 2007

 

                                                Scriptural reasons

           

            Why Fornicators/Adulterers should be allowed back to church.

 

It is true that the debate about the incestuous man in 1 Cor. 5 has been a source of discussion for decades. It is however no less of a responsibility for a Spirit Filled Church to deal with each issue in a way that reflects Bible directions and not in a “Burn and Slash” way.

 

This presentation could be reduced to a few pages, however it is important to

outline scriptures to complete the scriptural mosaic of God’s unlimited love

for His creation and the responsibilities required by God.

For the sake of brevity I will present the brief version as well as the longer version.

 

                                                            Brief Version

 

If it could be proven beyond a reasonable doubt that the person mentioned in

2Cor. 2: 5-11 is the fornicator mentioned in 1Cor.5:1-5 then R.C.I. morals

policy would need to be reviewed. However as with many others I consider

that this debate remains inconclusive. God has known all along that

we, as well as many other people in the Christian world would be debating this

very point “for ever”. God I believe has taken this point of conjecture “off the

table”. God has given us the answer in 2Cor 2: 10… “To whom you forgive

any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for

your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ”.

God leaves us in no doubt that we have the authority to forgive sins, but

it must be done with the utmost care for the sanctity of the church, and

for the purpose of reinstating a brother/sister that has shown works

meet for repentance. More is explained in the following longer version.

 

James 5:19 “My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone

should bring him back, remember this; Whoever turns a sinner from the error of

his way will save him from death and cover a multitude of sins.”

 

This is what God expects of us, to do whatever we can to help a brother or sister

in “any trouble” (2 Cor. 1:4). It would make no sense if after helping him/her we

were to refuse them fellowship back in church.

 

 

                                                            Longer version

 

1 Cor. 5: 1-5 The church of Corinth had reacted with “pride” as if that was a really clever thing to do.

Instead of the church seeking to rescue the sinning member and or remove him from fellowship if he would not be rescued, the church was puffed up with pride.

VS 6  “ Your glorying is not good…” this is in part the reason that Paul told the church to OUT the sinner… we shall see that other fornicators were allowed to stay-hopefully repenting (2 Co. 12:19-21) we will talk more about this scripture later.

 

 

2.

NOTE: VS 6 “Glorying” is referring to the attitude of the church… the “leaven” is attitude (Ref Matthew 16 leaven of the Pharisees… and others),

hence VS 7 “purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump…for even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us (individually)”

Paul is detailing the wrong attitude of the church towards this sinning member.

VS 11 It details a number of “sins” and those that commit these are to be separated from the church…”no not eat” no socializing.

However RCI would not be suggesting that the following sinners be expelled from the church never to be allowed back?

 

Drunkards, idolaters, extortioners, railers covetous, included in these are also fornicators.

If we would allow “the others back” under the proper conditions, why would we not allow back a fornicator too?

 

VS 13 When such sinners are put out of the church “God judgeth”. Indeed after a period of time (perhaps 1 year and will later see why this may be a scriptural period) God will decide if an expelled member should come back or not. The oversight of the church also has a vital part to play… the sinning member must

show… 2 Cor. 7: 9-10 “for godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation…” more about this shortly.

 

1 Cor. 6:9 “ the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?”

List of sins:

Fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, not thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor railers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

 

Unrighteous people who continue to commit the above sins or any other transgression of God’s law shall not inherit the Kingdom of God…

Unless REPENTANCE is demonstrated to God first and to the church.

 

Otherwise would a first time thief, drunkard etc. be removed from the church for ever?  I don’t think so!

 

There is no question that fornication and adultery are singled out for special attention…but all transgressions of God’s law are Sins and to be avoided. Likewise Fornication and Adultery are to be AVOIDED!

 

It is fundamental to feed the flock and explain the Spiritual and Natural

reasons why we regard fornication and adultery Abhorrent, not just

threaten members with eternal expulsion from R.C.I.

 

In the Old Testament:

 

  1. Adulterers were put to death. Leviticus 20:10
  2. Other fornicators were not sentenced to death vs. 20-21
  3. “Where a man entice a maid that is not betrothed, and lie with her…

     If her father refuses to give her unto him, he shall pay money

     according to the dowry of virgins” Exodus 22: 16-17

  1. David was an adulterer, murderer, schemer, yet God considered

     David righteous… 2 Sam. 11:1-27, 12:1-5, 6-14, 2 Sam 7:11-16

3.  

Read Psalm 130… David’s prayer of hope for God’s forgiveness.

This request for forgiveness by David is very much reflected in the New Testament in:

Ephesians 1: 7 “In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace”.

 

God’s judgment on David: Acts 13:22 “ And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfill all my will”

 

This theme is very much continued in the New Testament:

 

1 John 1:9 “If we (spirit filled people) confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness”.

 

1 John 2:1 “… and if any man sin we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous”.

 

Hebrew 4:14-16 Christ our high priest. Christ understands our infirmities (weaknesses), but was in all points tempted like as we are…

 

VS 16 “Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace that we may obtain mercy (forgiveness) and find grace to help in time of need”.

 

            THIS IS THE WAY FOR A REPENTANT SINNER!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       Repentance by: “WORKS MEET FOR REPENTANCE”

  2 Cor.  7:10 “godly sorrow”…

  Acts 26:20 “do works meet for repentance”

  James 5: 14-15 “and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him”.

 

“ANY TROUBLE”

 

2 Cor 1:4 “…comfort them which are in ANY TROUBLE, by the comfort

                   wherewith we ourselves are comforted of Christ”

2 Cor. 2:8 “…wherefore I beseech you that you would confirm (give evidence)

                   your love (comfort) toward him”. (or anyone else in or out of the church)

It is irrelevant if the “him” is or is not the fornicator in 1Cor 5:1, what is important is that we obey what Paul said in 2 Cor. 1:4 …”them in any trouble”

 

If we apply RCI Morals policy they, them or him (fornicators) are out for ever and we are not to have anything to do with them.

How could we “comfort them” which are in any trouble?

We could not and therefore the RCI morals policy is unscriptural.

 

2 Cor. 2:7 “So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort”

again it does not matter if the “Him” is the fornicator in Cor.1:5 or not!!

 

Cont. VS 7 “lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch

                    sorrow”.

                      This sinner had obviously repented… how do we know?

2 Cor.7:10 “godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation”.

4.

 

VS 10 “To whom you forgive ANYTHING “.

We in the church are AUTHORISED to forgive anything.

 

HOWEVER with the utmost CARE!

 

1Timothy 5:22 “Lay hands suddenly (too hastily, too soon) on no man (sinner) neither (otherwise) be partaker (partner-share) of other men’s sins: keep thyself pure.

The words “lay hands suddenly” have to do with restoring a sinning church member into the fellowship, after punitive church discipline has been exercised. The saint, upon forsaking his sin, is again re-introduced and identified with the church. In verses 19, 20, 21 we are told about dealing with sin and exercising punitive church discipline.

 

Then verse 22 deals with restoration. We the oversight are bidden to restrain by deliberate prudence the impulses of mere pity. A hasty restoration to church fellowship tempts the sinning brother who has been disciplined (in a punitive way) to suppose that his offense has not been so very serious after all and smooth’s the way for a repetition of the sin.

If the oversight is negligent here, we could become partakers of the offender’s sin. The expression “keep thyself pure” could be read, “keep thyself upright and honorable.

 

VS 20 “Them that sin rebuke before all that others may fear”.

Why are we in RCI not doing this?

 

We pride ourselves in obeying the “whole council of God”.

Perhaps if we OBEYED VS 20 the result could be what we read

in James 5:14-15 “prayer of faith-the Lord shall raise him up (healing and forgiveness)”

 

Ephesians 5:2 – 5 “Let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints”.

 

This is an encouragement NOT TO SIN! As in Ephesians 4:26 “be ye angry and sin NOT!”

However to isolate sexual acts ALONE is deceitful- Why?

Because it also names:

 

Vs 4. Filthiness, foolish talking, jesting

Vs 5. Whoremongers, unclean person, covetous man, idolater, hath any

          inheritance in the kingdom of God.

These transgressors will not inherit the kingdom of God Unless they repent

“and do work meet for repentance” … PLEASE NOTE CAREFULLY!

2Cor 7:10 “For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death”. This is talking

Spirit Filled people.

 

Worthy of Note!

Hebrews 6: 4 – 6 Highlights the impossibility of those that were once enlightened …“to renew them again unto repentance.”

Vs 6 “if they shall fall away to renew them again to repentance…”

This is a scripture R.C.I. rarely mentions …in the too hard basket?

 

However let scripture interpret scripture.

The reason spirit filled people are unable to be renewed is explained

brilliantly in:

5.

 

Romans 2:5 “But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God”.

 

The only reason (there may be others) that a spirit filled person falls away is because he fails to repent. Hence God cannot forgive an “impenitent heart.”

 

Final Points.

Paul wrote the book of 2 Cor. one year after the book of 1Cor.

read (2Cor 8:10) …one year could be a “scriptural” period for a fornicator

to remain out of fellowship, before being considered for re-introduction to church.

 

2 Cor. 12:19-21

Vs. 19 “…we speak before God in Christ: but we do all things, dearly beloved,

                    for your edifying.”

Vs. 20       (Paraphrasing) Paul is fearful that when he arrives he will find

                  more transgressions/ors and will need to get “tough”

Vs. 21 “… I will bewail (punish) many which have sinned already (before-

                  previously) and have not repented of the uncleanness, and

                  fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.

These sinners, fornicators etc. had previously transgressed, had been allowed

to remain in the church, however they had failed to repent, or recommitted these same sins.

Does this sound like R.C.I.?

 

If as some suggest, this refers to people’s condition before becoming Spirit filled, it would contradict the fact that God gives the Holy Spirit to those

that repent… therefore these people referred to in Vs 21 can only be

spirit filled people already in the church that have transgressed and

failed to repent.

 

Chapter 13:2 Paul had run out of patience.

“…which heretofore (previously as in vs. 21) have sinned, and to all others

(recalcitrant transgressors) that, if I come again, I will not spare”.

 

If Paul failed to “come” would these sinning folks be allowed to

stay? …is this what Paul meant when he said “will not spare”

1Tim. 5:20 “them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear”.

 

FORGIVENESS OF SINS

Why should we Avoid sinning at all cost. (Other reasons could be added)

 

First of all because it breaks the two Commandments that Jesus spoke about:

Matthew 22:37-40

 

Secondly because we read in:

Romans 6 : 16 “ Know ye not that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness”.

By sinning, and then repeating or continuing to sins, you become a slave to sin and will develop an impenitent heart ( Rom 2:5) which will leads to “falling away” Heb 6:6.

Sinning disappoints God and places the sinner’s salvation in jeopardy.  

6.

However if we repent:

 

1 John 1:7 “But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin”.

If we continue to walk in the light (in a state of repentance?) our sins

while walking in the light are cleansed (cancelled-removed).

 

Please note CAREFULLY !These scriptures are written to Spirit Filled People!

If we walk in the light… yet we can sin!

 

Vs. 8-9-10 confirms that we Spirit filled people DO SIN!

Repentance and forgiveness is again highlighted:

 

2 Peter 3:9 …not willing that any should perish, but that all should come

to Repentance.

 

This is again expressed in:

1 John 1:9 “if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness”

 

1 John 2: 1-2 “My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin Not.

And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

Vs 2 And he is the propitiation (atonement) for our sins: and not only for ours

only but also for the sins of the whole world.”

 

Forgiveness is granted only if a sinner repents:

 

Eventually a chronic sinner will become a slave to sin and will have little reason to repent (impenitent heart - Rom. 2:5) and will “fall away.”

 

Romans 7:10 “for godly sorrow worketh repentance to Salvation not to be repented of: but sorrow of the world (impenitent) worketh death.

 

In conclusion:

 

How can we justify telling a fornicator to “go away” and find himself another

church? Another church often is made up of Spirit filled people. They are brothers and sisters in the Lord.  R.C.I. is happy to recommend a fornicator (we regard as unwelcome) to go and fellowship with other brothers and sisters?!

Matthew 25:39 “Love your neighbour as yourself”. IT MAKES NO SENSE!

When Paul wrote his epistles, there were no other churches…

 

R.C.I prides itself in backing its policies with scripture!

R.C.I. documented morals policy presented to me in writing in 2006 is void of any scriptural substance. It is mainly an extract of R.C.I. self righteousness and how R.C.I deals with immorality in a slash and burn way, while totally ignoring the Spiritual aspects of scripture.

 Much more could be said, but let the word of God convince you, rather than emotions or loyalty to an organization.

Ps. Alf Neri

 

Epios Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #1
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Re:Why Fornicators/Adulterers should be allowed back Alf Neri

Date Posted:05/07/2010 5:12 PMCopy HTML

Reply to Im_out

.......................................................................................................................................................................

Thank you I'm_out for posting Alf Neri's article.  I think it commendable that he challenged RCI on this.  I recall  that Alf departed RCI shortly after opposing their policy.  I think a lot of what he has written still smacks of RCI thinking. I dispute some of what he has written, which I consider he has taken out of context.

Epi
.....................................................................................................................................................................

                                                        

    1Timothy 5:22 “Lay hands suddenly (too hastily, too soon) on no  man (sinner) neither (otherwise) be partaker (partner-share) of other men’s sins: keep thyself pure.

The words “lay hands suddenly” have to do with restoring a sinning church member into the fellowship, after punitive church discipline has been exercised. The saint, upon forsaking his sin, is again re-introduced and identified with the church. In verses 19, 20, 21 we are told about dealing with sin and exercising punitive church discipline.

 

Then verse 22 deals with restoration. We the oversight are bidden to restrain by deliberate prudence the impulses of mere pity. A hasty restoration to church fellowship tempts the sinning brother who has been disciplined (in a punitive way) to suppose that his offense has not been so very serious after all and smooth’s the way for a repetition of the sin.

If the oversight is negligent here, we could become partakers of the offender’s sin. The expression “keep thyself pure” could be read, “keep thyself upright and honorable.

 

VS 20 “Them that sin rebuke before all that others may fear”.

Why are we in RCI not doing this?

 

 ..........................................................................................................................................................


These verses deal with instruction about elders and discipline of ELDERS.  My Nelson's Bible Commentary (other commentaries are similar) states as follows :-

1 Timothy 5 : 15 - 17   "The primary function of ELDERS is to rule well.  The word honor was used in ancient writings outside the Bible to refer to financial remuneration.  Double refers to two types of honor: (1) respect for ruling well and (2) adequate pay for their diligent care of the church.  Those who labor in the word and doctrine are those ELDERS who preach and teach the Scriptures."

Verse 19  "An ELDER is protected against malicious attacks by the command not to receive an accusation,  a charge or legal accusation,  except when it comes from two or three witnesses.  Charges against ELDERS are to be factual,  not based on a single opinion or rumor."

Verse 20, 21 Those who are sinning refers to ELDERS who fail in their leadership, whether in the local church, in their social life, or in their home life. Rebuke is a command to bring a sin to light, to expose it before all, including other ELDERS and the church body.  The public rebuke of a sinning ELDER is to serve as a warning to other believers."

Verse 22-24  "This verse warns against too hastily restoring a LEADER who has fallen.  Correction in love and restoration to fellowship should occur as soon as possible, but restoration to LEADERSHIP should not be made without time and biblical evaluation."

Epi
.................................................................................................................................................................

Final Points.

Paul wrote the book of 2 Cor. one year after the book of 1Cor.

read (2Cor 8:10) …one year could be a “scriptural” period for a fornicator

to remain out of fellowship, before being considered for re-introduction to church.

 

.......................................................................................................................................................... 

For a pair of erring teenage first offenders year is a bit harsh.  Or indeed for anyone else.  My feeling is that most of what Paul says is referring to those who are flouting their sinfulness and are unrepentent.

Epi


 



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Re:Why Fornicators/Adulterers should be allowed back Alf Neri

Date Posted:06/07/2010 4:38 AMCopy HTML

Hi.

Could you please tell me why my response to I'm Out got scrubbed?

Thanks.

Tony
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Re:Why Fornicators/Adulterers should be allowed back Alf Neri

Date Posted:06/07/2010 6:01 AMCopy HTML

 Tony Barton?
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Re:Why Fornicators/Adulterers should be allowed back Alf Neri

Date Posted:06/07/2010 6:30 AMCopy HTML

Unkoolman,

No, my name is Tony Parker. I have no idea who Tony Barton is.

Tony
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Re:Why Fornicators/Adulterers should be allowed back Alf Neri

Date Posted:06/07/2010 6:37 AMCopy HTML

 Sorry

Should have saved your post. We have a serial troll called Tony that posts a lot.
RCI prophesies
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