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Re:Where did the Revival Centres get their 'Gospel'?

Date Posted:23/10/2005 12:15 PMCopy HTML

 

Where did the Revival Centres get their 'Gospel'?

(Continued...)

'We Believe we are baptised into the Body of Christ (the Church) through the Holy Spirit, with the Bible evidence of speaking in tongues.'

            Whilst the Revival Centres originally drew a clear distinction between one's initial conversion and a subsequent baptism in the Holy Spirit, it would be erroneous to assume they ever truly held a traditional Pentecostal view.   Typical Pentecostal doctrine states that when one comes to faith, that person is 'born again' (John 3:3, 16), immersed or brought into the church by the Holy Spirit (1 Cor 12:13) and the Holy Spirit takes up residence in the believer's heart (John 20:21; Romans 8:9).  Pentecostals also assert that the believer then goes on to receive the baptism in the Holy Spirit wherein they are 'filled' with the Holy Spirit as an equipping for service (Acts 1:9; 2:4).  However, Revivalists originally believed that although one was 'born again' at belief and then brought into the Body of Christ by the Spirit (Revival Centres: 1963), the Spirit did not indwell or take up residence in the believer (Hollins, N: 1959).    When one was baptised in the Holy Spirit, the Spirit equipped the believer for service but more importantly took up residence in the believer's heart (Longfield, L: 1959; 1961c).  From this distinct initial position, Revivalist leaders began to see Scriptures that seemed to teach that one must have the Holy Spirit residing in one's heart to be 'saved'.  Perhaps the most blatant of these was Romans 8:9, 'Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.'   As their initial position asserted that speaking in tongues was the initial evidence of the Baptism in the Spirit and this was when the Spirit took up residence, Revivalist leaders eventually came to the conclusion that speaking in tongues must be the evidence of one's salvation (Hollins, K: 1994).  They also concluded that the Pentecostal baptism in the Spirit must be synonymous with the baptism into the church mentioned in 1 Cor 12:13 (Revival Centres International: 1995).

 

Baptismal Regeneration

            Revivalists have always believed that the Holy Spirit, not water baptism, brings believers into the church (Revival Centres: 1963; Longfield, L: 1972).  In the early 1960s, when the Revival Centres began to include water baptism as part of their salvation formula, they began to re-evaluate the doctrine all together.  Evidences of varying views on water baptism are present right throughout Revivalist literature.  A form of baptismal regeneration was, and still is, held by many Revivalists.  One Revivalist wrote of the 'reality of water baptism with its associated miraculous regeneration' and that the 'idea of water baptism in Scripture was that sin might be remitted and the candidate thus cleansed to receive the Holy Ghost' (Revival Centres: 1961).  Through water baptism, wrote Longfield, 'you pass from death into life' and it is 'a burial service, during which time  the "old  Adamic self" is buried in a voluntary act of the confessed sinner' (Longfield, L: Water Baptism...).  Water baptism, wrote other Revivalists, 'is able to separate us from our old life' (E.J.F.: 1962) and 'is for "remission of sin"...an integral step in Bible salvation (I Peter 3:21)' (Revival Centres: 1962), and that a,

'repentance which refuses water baptism is unknown in the Bible...True repentance must lead a person to the waters of baptism.  Thus we see the saving importance of a believer's baptism' (Hollins, N: 1962). 

Longfield made the necessity of water baptism clear in 1974 when he wrote,

We are taught so specifically that God is particular, and demands our obedience.  Jesus did say "Except a man be born (brought forth) of water and of the Spirit he CANNOT see or enter the kingdom of God," (John 3.)  You should be baptised to obtain the promised result. (VOR: 1974:1: p2)

However, whilst noting the importance of water baptism as part of their salvation formula, Revivalists advocated that water baptism was a ?'eans to an end' which, by remitting sin, prepared one to receive the Baptism in the Holy Spirit, speaking in tongues (Longfield, L: 1972) and thus a completed conversion experience. 

            It appears that by 1979, Lloyd Longfield became aware of the problems that his earlier view of water baptism presented to the teaching that one must be baptised in the Holy Spirit to be saved.  If water baptism somehow remitted sin then why would one need to be baptised in the Holy Spirit?  Doesn't the remission of sin constitute salvation?  In 1979 an article appeared in the Voice of Revival which read,

'Peter...commanded the onlookers..."Repent and be baptised every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ" and then added "FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy ghost". (Acts 2:38).  The remission here was not of water but by the Spirit that would follow this prescribed act of obedience.   ...It is NOT water baptism that remits sin and brings one the "new birth" into the Church but rather HOLY SPIRIT BAPTISM' (emphasis theirs) (Revival Centres of Australia: 1979).

This different slightly different view of water baptism was affirmed and expanded upon in a 1989 edition of Voice of Revival.  

'We are not baptised into the body of Christ (the Church) but on the contrary we are baptised into his death.  It is the deliverance from sin and death by the Holy Spirit baptism that confirms the transaction that places the repentant candidate into the specified new relationship with God.   ...Remission from sin is not a result of water baptism but occurs as the candidate is filled with the Holy Spirit as the result of a repentant, obedient attitude to the word of God' (Revival Centres International: 1989).

Former Revival Centre pastor, Fred Needham claims that in December, 1990, Longfield issued an official statement requiring leaders to stop using phrases like 'Come and have your sins washed away in the waters of baptism' (Needham: 1991: 1).  Needham claims that in this statement Longfield wrote,

'This point is of paramount importance to the RCI as our beliefs are that it is the Holy ghost baptism that cleanses and that the death to the old is essentially qualified and identified by the receiving of the new. (Holy Spirit).' (cited in Needham: 1991: 1)

Needham also claimed upon discussing this  issue, Longfield,

'became adamant that a person is saved when they receive the Holy Spirit WITHOUT WATER BAPTISM.  If they refuse water baptism it is then a "backslide"  He said many times that if people received the Spirit first and we told them their salvation was not complete, we were saying their experience was "meaningless". (Needham: 1991: 2)

This brings the official Revival Centres International position on water baptism closer to the original Crusade position but places a much greater emphasis on the baptism in the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues as necessary for entry into the 'body of Christ'.

 

Conclusion

            It is certainly clear that the Crusade had an enormous impact on the key beliefs of the Revival Centres International.  It is also clear that although the Revival centres have utilised these original Crusade teachings as a basis, their modern doctrines bear little resemblance to those of the Crusade.  Their emphasis on the necessity of baptism in water by full immersion and speaking in tongues has also given them a distinct position in Australian Pentecostalism.  Whilst labelling all other groups as apostate, the Revival Centres have indirectly labelled themselves as possessing the only acceptable Christian teaching.

 

Bibliography

Chant, Barry (1984), Heart of Fire: The Story of Australian Pentecostalism, Unley Park: The House of Tabor.

 

Cooper, Dudley (1995), Flames of Revival: The Continuing Story of the Christian Revival Crusade, Endeavour Hills: CRC National Executive.

 

Durrant, J.H. (1959), 'The Bible Exposes Fallacies...', Voice of Revival, 1, 9,  p 4. 

 

Durrant, J.H. (n.d.), Bible Numerics, Melbourne: Revival Centres International.

 

E.J.F. (1962), 'God's Waters of Separation...', Voice of Revival 4, 6, p 2.

 

E.S.W. (1959), 'The Precious Blood of Christ', Voice of Revival 1, 2, p 1.

 

Geelong Revival Centre (n.d.), The Great Pyramid: God's Witness in Stone, Norlane: Geelong Revival Centre.

 

Harris, L (1956), 'The Gift of the Holy Spirit: Distinct From Salvation. Distinct From Water Baptism.' The Revivalist, 166, p 8. 

 

Harris, L (1957) 'How to Believe and Be Saved: A Message that will Settle Your Doubts', The Revivalist, 172, p 11. 

 

Hollins, Kevin (1959), 'The Bible Meaning of "Safety"', Voice of Revival 1, 1, p 4.

 

Hollins, Kevin (1994), recorded personal interview, 15th July.

 

Hollins, Noel (1954), 'New Testament Teaching on Water Baptism', The Commonwealth Revivalist, 140, p 21.

 

Hollins, Noel (1959), 'There Shall Be No More Death...', Voice of Revival 1, 2, p 4.

 

Hollins, Noel (1962), 'Facts About Water Baptism...', Voice of Revival 4, 5, p 2.

 

Humphreys, Robert & Roland Ward (1995), Religious Bodies in Australia: A Comprehensive Guide, Melbourne: New Melbourne Press.

 

Longfield, E.J. (1975), 'You Can Depend on the Bible', Voice of Revival 17, 2, p 10.

 

Longfield, Lloyd (n.d), Salvation and the Holy Spirit, Melbourne: Revival Centres International.  

 

Longfield, Lloyd (n.d.), Water Baptism - A Commandment, An Act of Obedience, And a Blessing..., Melbourne Revival Centre. 

 

Longfield, Lloyd (n.d.), What Must I do To Be Saved?, Melbourne: Revival Centres of Australia. 

 

Longfield, Lloyd (1953), 'Should Every Believer Be Baptised?', The National Revivalist, 129, p 17.

 

Longfield, Lloyd (1959), 'Editorial: The Objective of this Journal...', Voice of Revival 1, 1, p 1.

 

Longfield, Lloyd (1961a), 'God's Word Withstands Attacks by the Philosophers and Traditions', Voice of Revival 3, 5, p 1.

 

Longfield, Lloyd (1961b), 'The Magnified Word of God', Voice of Revival 3, 9, p 6.

 

Longfield, Lloyd (1961c), 'Do All Speak With Tongues..?', Voice of Revival 3, 6, p 7.  

 

Longfield, Lloyd (1963), 'The Pope Promotes Bible Reading - With Reservations', Voice of Revival, 5, 2, p 1. 

 

Longfield, Lloyd (1972), 'Editorial: The Musts and the Meaning of "Water Baptism"', Voice of Revival, 14, 8, pp 2, 3. 

 

Longfield, Lloyd (1991), 'The War on Doctrine', Voice of Revival 32, 1, p 10.

 

Longfield, Lloyd (1994), recorded personal interview, 1st September.

 

Longfield, Lloyd (1995), recorded public sermon, 19th January.

 

Longfield, Lloyd (1997), 'What We Believe', Voice of Revival 38, 2, p 5.

 

National Revival Crusade (1952) The National Revivalist, 115, pp 10, 11). 

 

Needham, F. (1991), Open letter to all pastors of the Revival Centres, dated 9th December, p 7.

 

Revival Centres (1959a), 'Articles of Faith', Voice of Revival 1, 1, p 1. 

 

Revival Centres (1959b), 'Deity or Devil-Which Was He?', Voice of Revival 1, 7, p 8.

 

Revival Centres (1961), 'Water Baptism by Immersion...', Voice of Revival 3, 5, p 2.

 

Revival Centres (1962), 'Baptism - Legal or Biblical?', Voice of Revival 4, 10, p 4.

 

Revival Centres (1963), 'The Church, the Spirit - and Unity', Voice of Revival 5, 11, p 6.

 

Revival Centres (1972), 'King James the First and the Bible' Voice of Revival 14, 2, pp 4, 5.

 

Revival Centres (1973), 'Articles of Faith', Voice of Revival 15, 11, p 3.

 

Revival Centres (1974), 'What We Believe', Voice of Revival 16, 1, p 15.

 

Revival Centres International (1989), 'Water Baptism', Voice of Revival 30, 1, p 5.

 

Revival Centres International (1991), 'The History of the Christian Church', Voice of Revival 32, 2, pp 6, 7.

 

Revival Centres International (1995), 'What We Believe', Voice of Revival 35, 2, pp 10, 11.

 

Revival Centres International (1997), 'Jesus, King of Israel', Voice of Revival 38, 1, p 9.

 

Revival Centres of Australia (1979), 'Water Baptism. Means to an End', Revival 79, 2, 1, p 11.

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Re:Where did the Revival Centres get their 'Gospel'?

Date Posted:04/12/2005 9:40 PMCopy HTML

Well done!

Now could you do a paper on the Catholic church and where they got their doctrine from? And maybe after that the Anglican, then the Methodists, perhaps the Baptist church and after that ... let's see, AOG, Salvation Army and to finish of the Latter day saints.

Then again ... maybe you have better things to do???
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Re:Where did the Revival Centres get their 'Gospel'?

Date Posted:04/12/2005 11:11 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : Anonymous

Well done!Now could you do a paper on the Catholic church and where they got their doctrine from? And maybe after that the Anglican, then the Methodists, perhaps the Baptist church and after that ... let's see, AOG, Salvation Army and to finish of the Latter day saints.Then again ... maybe you have better things to do???

I think they got other websites for such discussions... this particulara forum is about the Revival churches and their doctrines... excuse me for stating the bleeding obvious at your attempt to be -sarcastic?-

Peace on earth etc.

Merry Xmas (oh, you don't do that do you?)

[LINK SiteName=Mothrust: Movies and Modern Myth Target=_blank]http://aintchristian.blogspot.com.au/[/LINK] Be nice, for everyone that you meet is fighting a harder battle - Anita Roddick
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Re:Where did the Revival Centres get their 'Gospel'?

Date Posted:05/12/2005 6:20 AMCopy HTML

$%*'`[?]%*'`@

Revival Fellowship is not in anyway assoiated with Revival centres International, Geelong and what ever other ones are put in this category.

God is doing some amazing Miralces and Helaings in TRF only because the fellowship is looking to God for the Leadin of the Holy Spirit and to do Gods Will.

Mans traditions are out the door, and have been for quite awhile, so all who have opinions and thoughts and judgements upon this Organisation should really come and experience it for themselkves again. Its Gods Church and he'll do what he pleases with it, who are we to Limit God! The Lord is stirring up this Fellowship and were seeing Holy Ghost REVIVAL.

God bless everyone and remain on the way to Eternal Life with Jesus Christ.

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Re:Where did the Revival Centres get their 'Gospel'?

Date Posted:05/12/2005 6:58 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : HolyandSinful



Reply to : AnonymousWell done!Now could you do a paper on the Catholic church and where they got their doctrine from? And maybe after that the Anglican, then the Methodists, perhaps the Baptist church and after that ... let's see, AOG, Salvation Army and to finish of the Latter day saints.Then again ... maybe you have better things to do???I think they got other websites for such discussions... this particulara forum is about the Revival churches and their doctrines... excuse me for stating the bleeding obvious at your attempt to be -sarcastic?-Peace on earth etc.Merry Xmas (oh, you don't do that do you?)





You're excused.

And there's nothing wrong with Xmas. Presents, food and hanging out with other people that actually have a life ... both spiritual and natural!! But hey, you do what YOU want to do. After all, when it comes down to it, that is really what this is all about. as for me and my house .... I'll serve the Lord.
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Re:Where did the Revival Centres get their 'Gospel'?

Date Posted:05/12/2005 1:07 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : ? [Anonymous]

Revival Fellowship is not in anyway assoiated with Revival centres International, Geelong and what ever other ones are put in this category.God is doing some amazing Miralces and Helaings in TRF only because the fellowship is looking to God for the Leadin of the Holy Spirit and to do Gods Will.Mans traditions are out the door, and have been for quite awhile, so all who have opinions and thoughts and judgements upon this Organisation should really come and experience it for themselkves again. Its Gods Church and he'll do what he pleases with it, who are we to Limit God! The Lord is stirring up this Fellowship and were seeing Holy Ghost REVIVAL.God bless everyone and remain on the way to Eternal Life with Jesus Christ.

More evidence that most Revival Centre groups suffer from what was termed 'historylessness'.  This is the idea that all the streams of history that converged into the formation of the Revival Centres and then any branches or splinter groups have had no impact.  Historylessness in the Revival Centres is usually shown through their belief that their church is a re-creation of fisrt century Christianity.  They believe that the early Church eventually lost its way, usually somewhere around the 2nd or 3rd centuries, and then was completely reinstated at the formation of the Revival Centres or at the least, the formation of their unique version whether RF, CAI, GRC, RC, etc.

That their 'version' of Xiniaty is made up of a mix of Pentecostalism (and all that made up that movement), British-Israelism, alcohol temperance, and of course the personal histories of all key leaders both before and while in the RC groups, is completely ignored by most Revivalists.  A breif study of early Church history would show there is pretty much nothing about the Revival Centres that mirrors the first century Church.  KJV Bibles (A NEW TESTAMENT!!!) , Wesleyan Hymns, Scripture in Song chorus sessions, Church heirarchy structure, milaristic leadership styles, meeting styles, and the list goes on.  All these things which Revvalists take for granted would mean nothing to the early Church.  But they all came from somewhere and all play a part in the way revivalists do things and see the church.

The danger of historylessness is the same as any kind of ignorance of history, and that is a failure to learn from the past and to make many of the same mistakes all over again.  Something that the Revivalists have shown again and again.  They have infallible, unquestionable Popes, ther are exclusive...ah the list goes on and on.

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Re:Where did the Revival Centres get their 'Gospel'?

Date Posted:05/12/2005 3:02 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : ? [Question mark - either the Riddler or Dr Who]

Revival Fellowship is not in anyway assoiated with Revival centres International, Geelong and what ever other ones are put in this category.

No association?

Logic statement - I am not in anyway associated with my other brothers and sisters in my own family.. even though we have the same mum and dad and were brought up in the same house and ate the same food and were given the same punishments and rewards and all believed the same thing... other than that I have no association with my family members.

Even though I have moved out and have my own family (yeah and -wow- my own life, I still have time to read and post to this website while running a classroom and family - go figure!) and have developed my own beliefs, I definitely DO have an association with my family and relations.

Do you get the analogy, or does it sound like madness? I left the RF only just last year and I was there when it branched off from the RCI. It's essentially the same church but with lighter penalties for sexual sin, less emphasis on British Israel.

'stirred up by the HOLY GHOST Revival' - We used to measure this stirring by the amount of baptisms each year (which PNG Godfrey usually mocked - nicely). Embarrasingly, most of the number of baptisms were children who had gotten a healthy dose of training at kids camps.

Speaking of the RCI (which has nothing to do with RF) and Xmas. They've really changed their tune on the 'Holy' season. They used to detest it and promote their distance from all things Christmasy. I notice on their website  that they are putting on 4 big 'carols by Candlelight' concerts this year. I haven't checked out their site in years. I thought this was funny under the 'bible study' section... in other words... "don't pay too much attention to the stuff that sounds nutty - it all come out in the wash" he he...

7. Interpret less-clear scriptures by using clear scriptures.
The Bible interprets itself. If you come across something where one interpretation of a scripture seems at odds with the main messages of the Bible, or is unclear, look for an interpretation that fits in with major teachings expounded more clearly elsewhere in the Bible. The Bible does not stick in "left field" comments on their own - there will always be another scripture confirming the correct interpretation of a less-clear scripture.

 

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Re:Where did the Revival Centres get their 'Gospel'?

Date Posted:05/12/2005 6:18 PMCopy HTML

$%*'`[?]%*'`@

Wow, okay Mr HolyandSinful.We all have different veiws on alot of things...

Why'd you leave revival Fellowship?
Why do people waste their time, wiriting up posts on how wrong a fellowship is? When really all they should be focused on is JESUS! the Saviour. And his work to preach the Gospel. Not find faults in one another casue of grudges or something you might have experienced while in the church.......

837 Baptisms in PNg this year, for the Kingdom of God pretty amazing huh?
God Bless

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Re:Where did the Revival Centres get their 'Gospel'?

Date Posted:05/12/2005 7:23 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : ? [Anonymous]



Wow, okay Mr HolyandSinful.We all have different veiws on alot of things...Why'd you leave revival Fellowship?Why do people waste their time, wiriting up posts on how wrong a fellowship is? When really all they should be focused on is JESUS! the Saviour. And his work to preach the Gospel. Not find faults in one another casue of grudges or something you might have experienced while in the church.......837 Baptisms in PNg this year, for the Kingdom of God pretty amazing huh?God Bless



Yeah, its amazing what under-resourced people will do for a water well, food to eat or a roof over thier head. Everyone has their price, even you.
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Re:Where did the Revival Centres get their 'Gospel'?

Date Posted:05/12/2005 7:41 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : ? [Anonymous]


Wow, okay Mr HolyandSinful.We all have different veiws on alot of things...

Yes we all do.  And yes we are all different. 

Why'd you leave revival Fellowship?

Many reasons, but initially not doctrinal. I was quite content putting up with the long and many meetings, monotonous talks, elitist attitudes and mix and match doctrine until last year an old guy of long standing in the fellowship started stalking my wife. It was incredible. I've never shared this story online before. He knew when she shopped all details of her movements. He made an idecent move on her in the supermarket - the bastard. No one believed her and the pastor told us to forgive and forget. Stupid us - we didn't know of any other church to go to and we put up with his leering at EVERY meeting for months... can you believe it! I was that scared of leaving God's only church that I forced my wife to confront this unforgiving unrepentent lier. During those months he continued to stalk her until the following straw broke my back:

A couple of 'oversight' nazis were praying with my daughter. They argued with me over her ability to speak in tongues... this is when I started to feel something was seriously messed up. These 'linquistic scientists' were studying her vocal ability to speak sustainable gibberish so they could judge and discern her spiritfilledness. After 16 years I said to myself (in the magical words of Cartman)... "screw you guys, I'm going home". The freedom since then has been brilliant and blissful and I applaud and encourage anyone who dares question the doctrine squeezed out of Lloyd Longfield.

Why do people waste their time, wiriting up posts on how wrong a fellowship is?

If something is perceived to be wrong then it is helpful to warn others or discuss the issues for those wanting to leave. This is a forum for ex-members, those contemplating leaving or joining and those with friends and families in the groups. It can help to talk about things and this is hardly a waste of time for them. It is as much a waste of time as it would be to play hours of Quake II or watch a meaningless movie.

When really all they should be focused on is JESUS! the Saviour. And his work to preach the Gospel.

Whose gospel? His?... I've no problem sharing all the good and nice things Jesus spoke about. Many take issue here with the manipulated gospel others have interpreted and enforced. I'm sure you'd agree that there are many church groups who hurt more than help the communities about them by encouraging separatism and in-house agendas. Not naming names here or anything.

Not find faults in one another casue of grudges or something you might have experienced while in the church.......

Do you think that faults are only found because of grudges or bad experiences? Is the problem always with the individual and not with the organised religion? I suppose that's how you'd have to think if you believe your doctrine and church to be near perfect.

837 Baptisms in PNg this year, for the Kingdom of God pretty amazing huh?

837 people got completely wet in PNG. I'm sure Mr Godfrey is very proud.

God Bless

If you ask Him on a good day... he's pretty fickle when it comes to answering prayer sometimes.


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Re:Where did the Revival Centres get their 'Gospel'?

Date Posted:05/12/2005 9:11 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : HolyandSinful



If you ask Him on a good day... he's pretty fickle when it comes to answering prayer sometimes.





Out of everything you've said, this is the one that sums you up for me. With what you and your wife have obviously dealt with in the past, and what ever else has gone on, you aim a blow and the one person that would have helped you ... God. Sorry, but who ever you are and what ever you believe, whether it be correct or wrong, to think about God in that way just goes to show you have no real understanding. Or at least a lack of wilingness to understand or learn what the Bible actually says about all of the above.

I hope you can move past your anger, pride & fear, and listen to the Holy Spirit.

The bible says many are called but few are chosen. I hope you become one of the few again.
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Re:Where did the Revival Centres get their 'Gospel'?

Date Posted:05/12/2005 9:39 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : Anonymous


Out of everything you've said, this is the one that sums you up for me.

How nice it is to be summed up by you... Thanks Judge Dredd, ya got my number. Do you charge by the hour for your profiling?

With what you and your wife have obviously dealt with in the past, and what ever else has gone on, you aim a blow and the one person that would have helped you ... God.

He did help us. He helped us out and I thank HIm deeply for it. See how you equate lleaving the RF as giving God a blow... think about that. And you seemingly assume that we didn't fellowship somewhere else (other churches are misquided anyway eh?)

Sorry, but who ever you are and what ever you believe, whether it be correct or wrong, to think about God in that way just goes to show you have no real understanding.

Why, do you get everything you pray for? Tell us your secret!... the answer is sometimes 'no' hey? He seems to say no quite a lot. He is much wiser than us, so no answer is still something to thank Him for. No need to be sorry though. And again you feel free to judge whether I have real understanding. Your judgementality is summing you up for me!

Or at least a lack of wilingness to understand or learn what the Bible actually says about all of the above.

yeah ok... ok... we get the picture. You're the wise and learned one. Why are you here anyway? Questioning your beliefs? Trying to save the evil backsliders? or just busy avoiding all the worldlies?


I hope you can move past your anger, pride & fear, and listen to the Holy Spirit.

'Be ye angry, sin not' - sounds like Yoda, some of these verses. Pride's part of the package kiddo... you may even have some too... and fear... I'm only scared of toads and speeding fines.

The bible says many are called but few are chosen. I hope you become one of the few again.

So...? I was chosen but now am not... but can be again... unless I fellowhip in different circles other than the RF... I think I'll stand by what I said.. if this is what you believe then God really IS fickle. Thanks for your input here. It is very reassuring to see that nothing's changed since I left.


[LINK SiteName=Mothrust: Movies and Modern Myth Target=_blank]http://aintchristian.blogspot.com.au/[/LINK] Be nice, for everyone that you meet is fighting a harder battle - Anita Roddick
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Re:Where did the Revival Centres get their 'Gospel'?

Date Posted:05/12/2005 11:46 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : Anonymous

The bible says many are called but few are chosen.

So then it really has nothing to do with us.  We're chosen or we're not.  Why have a go at us 'unchosen' ones at all then?  Rather rant at God as he does the 'choosing'.

To be honest though, I'd rather be free than one of the RC frozen chosen.

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Re:Where did the Revival Centres get their 'Gospel'?

Date Posted:06/12/2005 6:58 AMCopy HTML

Once again, both of you prove my point. You have an attitude, and not one of humility that the Bibe talks about. But it seems like you don't really care what the Bible talks about, and like I said earlier you're content to do what YOU want to do. The Bible also says, you shall know them by their fruits ... if that's judging, then yeah ... I guess I'm judging. Only according to the word of God.

Nothings changed you say. I'm glad, God is the same yesterday, today and forever. It is you that has to do the changing.

Why am I here? Because every now and I like to remind myself of how easily it is to be confused about a simple gospel, and make sure I keep my eyes on the Lord rather than what I want or think.

You're probably thinking, I've been taught to say all this. You'd probably be right, but I have also questioned various things within the church and made sure what ever is happening, it is in line with the Bible.

I don't think that the RF church is the only right church, but I do know that it's the only one I've found that doesn't compromise on anything just to please the hardened hearts like you.
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Re:Where did the Revival Centres get their 'Gospel'?

Date Posted:06/12/2005 7:03 AMCopy HTML

... can I also ask one question.

What is your explanation of Jesus' commandment to be born of water and the Spirit??
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Re:Where did the Revival Centres get their 'Gospel'?

Date Posted:06/12/2005 7:48 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : Anonymous

... can I also ask one question.What is your explanation of Jesus' commandment to be born of water and the Spirit??

Why ask me?  I am not a Christian.

Can I ask you a question?  Who are Mithras, Osiris and Dyonisis and what is their relation, if any, to Christianity?

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Re:Where did the Revival Centres get their 'Gospel'?

Date Posted:06/12/2005 8:16 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : Anonymous

... can I also ask one question.What is your explanation of Jesus' commandment to be born of water and the Spirit??

Your simple doctrine/gospel is pretty confusing... fruit's not enough for you is it? You can call me whatever you like or judge me however you like, I've heard it all before... as long as it makes YOU feel better by beathing your chest at me, then I'm spreading joy and happiness. Enjoy it... gotta get some laughs when ya can.

A lot's been said already, you can check out mine and the opinion of many others here who are not being told what to think... grab a coffee,  click away, and have a good fume over all the terrible people who choose not to agree with your interpretation exactly... You seem to be quite desparate to trail the discussion into tongues... oh.. you KNOW you are. There are plenty of other threads on this forum that have covered that ground well. I've put a few here for you after the following quote.

The following is quoted from Mr J - a wholly content and happy non-christian concerning water and spirit:

Click for complete context

I can't seem to find anywhere in the Bible where it says that to be born of water is baptism.  Let's make that VERY clear...your statement here is not as clear as you would have us believe.  It is an assumption.

 

Why would one need to be born of water when the work of regeneration is by the Spirit?  Does water do something magical?

 

The Revival Centres claim that there is a mistranslation in the King James version of John 3:8. They say it's correct translation supports their view that one must be baptised with the Holy Spirit and speak in tongues in order to be saved.

They say that it should be translated to say that, "the Spirit breathes where it chooses, and you hear the voice thereof, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit". So, wind is changed to Spirit, blows is changed to breathes, and sound is changed to voice. To them, the passage indicates that you, "hear the voice of the Spirit," whenever someone is born of the Spirit. They take 'voice of the Spirit' to mean tongues.

Firstly, we must note that nowhere in Scripture is speaking in tongues referred to as the 'voice of the Spirit' so for the Revival Centres to say so is pure assumption.

Secondly, speaking in tongues is a gift of the Holy Spirit but is definitely not the 'voice of the Spirit' as the Holy Spirit does not generate the sound, people do. Both simple observation and the Bible prove this to be true. 'Though *I* speak with the tongues of men and of angels'(1 Cor 13:1); 'For *he that speaketh* in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God' (1 Cor 14:2); '*He that speaketh* in an unknown tongue edifieth himself' (1 Cor 14:4); 'For they heard *them* speak with tongues, and magnify God' (Acts 10:46); 'For if *I* pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth'( 1 Cor 14:14).

Finally, the RCI insist that all must "hear" the voice of the Spirit, and that this "hearing" is the sounds of tongues. Tongues, it is said, being the voice of the Spirit, audibly heard. Nothing could be further from the truth.

The word "hear" in this text, does not refer to audible hearing, but rather to spiritual, as is clear in the Greek. Here the word "akouo" (hear) is used as a verb, in the accusative. That means that the voice of the spirit is not audible, as would be in the genitive. Rather, it is the message or meaning which is heard. "The thing perceived", in other words. The two usages of this word is demonstrated thoughout the bible, for example Matt 13:13-17, where we see both cases and meanings used side by side. Vines gives a definition:

In John 3:8, Akouo is used in the accusative sense, meaning that the 'hearing' does not stress literal sounds but 'perceiving'. It cannot be tongues, because a literal sound is not intended by the Greek in the passage.

So, what is the passage really saying? The word used for 'wind' and 'Spirit' are the same Greek word, 'pneuma'. The John passage may be a word play with both meanings. Translating the word as 'spirit' we learn of the sovereign workings of God in relation to the new birth. The Living Bible puts it this way, "Just as you can hear the wind but can't tell where it comes from or where it will go next, so it is with the Spirit. We do not know on whom he will next bestow this life from heaven". That seems to be a reasonable interpretation of John 3, especially with regard to the surrounding passage about salvation and the workings of the heavenly realm (v.12, 16). If we translate 'pneuma' as 'wind', it does not detract from the sovereignty of God but gives us a better illustration of the Spirit's working in people. We do not see the Holy Spirit, but like the invisible wind in the trees, we know his presence by the effect it has.

Revival Centres quote this to show that true Christians must speak in tongues (worship in spirit). It is often referenced with 1Corinthians 14, which refers to speaking in tongues as 'prayer in the spirit'. However, check the context. The woman asks Jesus WHERE God's people should worship. The Jews say Jerusalem and the Samaritans say on the mountain. Why does she ask this obscure question?

At one stage, God was worshipped on a mountain. But his progressive revelation to the Jews led them to erect a temple and worship his presence in the 'Holy of Holies'. The Samaritans, however, continued worshipping God on a mountain even though he was no longer there. That question of where God could be worshipped was a current issue and was addressed in John 4. However, the John 4 passage says nothing about prayer. Old Testament saints often prayed from a diversity of locations, but only worshipped at specific locations (the temple or tabernacle).

"Worship in the spirit" cannot be equated with "prayer in the Spirit". I will admit that prayer in the Spirit may well refer to speaking in tongues, but how can one link it with John 4? They are unrelated other than the mention of the 'Spirit'. If we insist that to worship in the spirit means to pray in the Spirit, then what does it mean to 'walk in the Spirit' or be 'led by the Spirit'? Does that also refer to speaking in tongues?

Furthermore, If John 4 refers to the baptism in the Spirit, then how could Jesus have said: "But the hour is coming, and is now" (v23). The hour... IS NOW? But the baptism in the Spirit did not come until Pentecost some years later. How could this 'worship in the Spirit' refer to tongues if tongues were later on and not 'NOW'?

A response to a similar question given to some of us recently

and some others that may be of interest...

http://www.pleaseconsider.info/articles/acts/acts10.htm

http://www.aimoo.com/forum/categories.cfm?id=443300&CategoryID=148056

The questions to pilinuts on the following thread are particularly interesting... enjoy!

http://www.aimoo.com/forum/categories.cfm?id=443300&CategoryID=401373

[LINK SiteName=Mothrust: Movies and Modern Myth Target=_blank]http://aintchristian.blogspot.com.au/[/LINK] Be nice, for everyone that you meet is fighting a harder battle - Anita Roddick
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Re:Where did the Revival Centres get their 'Gospel'?

Date Posted:06/12/2005 1:11 PMCopy HTML

Why would I trust in the opinion of someone who says they aren't a Christian?!?! It's like trusting in a comedian to build me a house, lots of talk and maybe some laughs but nothing that I can live with.

In the end, that is why when people are looking for God by them selves, they end up speaking in a language they haven't learnt. Hmm, sound slike something that comes from the Bible. Go figure ... but then again, what would I know ... I'm not a comedian!
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Re:Where did the Revival Centres get their 'Gospel'?

Date Posted:06/12/2005 1:16 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : ? [Anonymous]

Wow, okay Mr HolyandSinful.We all have different veiws on alot of things...Why'd you leave revival Fellowship?Why do people waste their time, wiriting up posts on how wrong a fellowship is? When really all they should be focused on is JESUS! the Saviour. And his work to preach the Gospel. Not find faults in one another casue of grudges or something you might have experienced while in the church.......837 Baptisms in PNg this year, for the Kingdom of God pretty amazing huh?God Bless
Numbers mean nothing! of that number see how many are sitll following after 12 months, then get excited.
A man died and went to heaven. He was met by Jesus and Jesus began to show him around. As they walked they saw some amazing things. Some too beautiful and amazing to describe. Eventually they came to a huge wall and the man heard the sound of music, laughing and what basically sounded like a party coming from behind the wall. Curious, the man asked Jesus what was going on behind the wall. Jesus answered, "Shhhh!!! Not too loud. That"s the GRC. They think they"re the only ones here!!!"
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Re:Where did the Revival Centres get their 'Gospel'?

Date Posted:06/12/2005 1:36 PMCopy HTML

Even if it's just 1, it's still exciting.
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Re:Where did the Revival Centres get their 'Gospel'?

Date Posted:06/12/2005 2:11 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : Anonymous


Why would I trust in the opinion of someone who says they aren't a Christian?!?! It's like trusting in a comedian to build me a house, lots of talk and maybe some laughs but nothing that I can live with.

I know a builder who is very funny and could be classed as a comedian. He might take offense to your comment. So, if anyone doesn't label themselves christian, but once was one, they have no credibility?  I thought, once spirit-filled, the Spirit would never leave you. That's what you believe, therefore Mr J is still christian from your point of view. 

So, if someone doesn't believe what you do then whatever they say is of disregard and to be ignored. Therefore the only people you actually can discuss scripture with is other Revivians. All you can do to others is to forcefeed your doctrine and brush the dust off your feet when they don't agree. No wonder you guys are still around. Time to brush those feet eh?

Is their anything in the text quoted previously that you can actually discuss or are you too busy judging the authors spritual standing? It's the subject of Revivian doctrine we are debating here... not your prejudice (although, they seem to dovetail)

In the end, that is why when people are looking for God by them selves, they end up speaking in a language they haven't learnt.

Ehhhh, wrong guess Hans, try the next question for double jeopardy. Many many christians don't speak in tongues and never have, but you and your minority group don't want to think about that horrible thought. A language has syntax, grammar and sense... not gibberish.. anyone can do that - really! Oh.. and it's learnt alright. We used to teach it to people almost parrot like. Rote learning, but learning nevertheless. Link to thread

Hmm, sound slike something that comes from the Bible. Go figure

Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you "Revivias Classicus", an insecure arrogant little species who live under the spell of narrowmindedness and eliticism. They believe that God created the world and allowed his son to be ripped apart and nailed to a tree so that a sliver of mankind who can make nonsensical sounds can rule the world and live forever. The rest, they believe can go and die.

... but then again, what would I know ... I'm not a comedian!

No, that's true, but your make me laugh nonetheless...


[LINK SiteName=Mothrust: Movies and Modern Myth Target=_blank]http://aintchristian.blogspot.com.au/[/LINK] Be nice, for everyone that you meet is fighting a harder battle - Anita Roddick
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Re:Where did the Revival Centres get their 'Gospel'?

Date Posted:17/01/2006 9:43 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : Anonymous

Well done!Now could you do a paper on the Catholic church and where they got their doctrine from? And maybe after that the Anglican, then the Methodists, perhaps the Baptist church and after that ... let's see, AOG, Salvation Army and to finish of the Latter day saints.Then again ... maybe you have better things to do???
It all comes together when u now the truth about the history of the group.
A man died and went to heaven. He was met by Jesus and Jesus began to show him around. As they walked they saw some amazing things. Some too beautiful and amazing to describe. Eventually they came to a huge wall and the man heard the sound of music, laughing and what basically sounded like a party coming from behind the wall. Curious, the man asked Jesus what was going on behind the wall. Jesus answered, "Shhhh!!! Not too loud. That"s the GRC. They think they"re the only ones here!!!"
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Re:Where did the Revival Centres get their 'Gospel'?

Date Posted:17/01/2006 3:28 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : ? [Anonymous]

Revival Fellowship is not in anyway assoiated with Revival centres International, Geelong and what ever other ones are put in this category.God is doing some amazing Miralces and Helaings in TRF only because the fellowship is looking to God for the Leadin of the Holy Spirit and to do Gods Will.Mans traditions are out the door, and have been for quite awhile, so all who have opinions and thoughts and judgements upon this Organisation should really come and experience it for themselkves again. Its Gods Church and he'll do what he pleases with it, who are we to Limit God! The Lord is stirring up this Fellowship and were seeing Holy Ghost REVIVAL.God bless everyone and remain on the way to Eternal Life with Jesus Christ.
Who are the TRF?
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Re:Where did the Revival Centres get their 'Gospel'?

Date Posted:17/01/2006 10:11 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : Anonymous

Who are the TRF?
The revival fellowship...off shoot of the RCI from the mid-90s.
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Re:Where did the Revival Centres get their 'Gospel'?

Date Posted:18/01/2006 2:41 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : Anonymous

Reply to : AnonymousWho are the TRF?The revival fellowship...off shoot of the RCI from the mid-90s.
is there a website for the TRF?
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Re:Where did the Revival Centres get their 'Gospel'?

Date Posted:18/01/2006 7:28 AMCopy HTML

$%*'`[?]%*'`@Reply to : ? [Anonymous]

Wow, okay Mr HolyandSinful.We all have different veiws on alot of things...Why'd you leave revival Fellowship?Why do people waste their time, wiriting up posts on how wrong a fellowship is? When really all they should be focused on is JESUS! the Saviour. And his work to preach the Gospel. Not find faults in one another casue of grudges or something you might have experienced while in the church.......837 Baptisms in PNg this year, for the Kingdom of God pretty amazing huh?God Bless
Than again what is the point of this site with out the debate???????
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Re:Where did the Revival Centres get their 'Gospel'?

Date Posted:18/01/2006 7:37 AMCopy HTML

$%*'`[HeandShe]%*'`@Reply to : HeandShe

Reply to : AnonymousWhy would I trust in the opinion of someone who says they aren't a Christian?!?! It's like trusting in a comedian to build me a house, lots of talk and maybe some laughs but nothing that I can live with.I know a builder who is very funny and could be classed as a comedian. He might take offense to your comment. So, if anyone doesn't label themselves christian, but once was one,they have no credibility? I thought, once spirit-filled, the Spirit wouldneverleave you. That's whatyoubelieve, therefore Mr J isstillchristian from your point of view.So, if someone doesn't believe what you do then whatever they say is of disregard and to be ignored. Therefore the only people you actually can discus

But than again I'm an idiot and have never through out side the box in my life. I follow blindly what god has to say and I never ask questions. Why should I ask questions??? If I ask questions of myself I just might find the wrong answer and I don't want to do that!  

And not to believe in god than you must be thinking out side the box and if you are doing that we will not listen. Come to think of it I should go back to the GRC and never question Noel again.  Ya!  If you don't believe in god and Jesus and are not filled with the holly ghost you are a moron and should be put to death. Well not death but we should not listen to you. For if we were to listen to you we would have to question ourselves and we don't want to do that. Got it we don't want to question our own truths for we know that god is god and that he is all and that all is want we should all want and if we don't want that that we should not follow him and if we do not follow him what be here at all we might as well be dead or something or you know we should follow a man and not a god and if a god what god AAAAAAAA!!! Well thank for letting me get this out of my system and you can all go to hell if you don't believe in MY GOD!!!!!

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Re:Where did the Revival Centres get their 'Gospel'?

Date Posted:18/01/2006 5:10 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : HeandShe [Anonymous]

But than again I'm an idiot and have never through out side the box in my life. I follow blindly what god has to say and I never ask questions. Why should I ask questions??? If I ask questions of myself I just might find the wrong answer and I don't want to do that!  

ummm, I'm not even sure who you're taking the piss out of  here. Weird... but glad for you that you got it off your chest. Who wants stuff on their chest anyway? If I want to get stuff off my chest, I just stand up... ususally crumbs and stuff.

Nice nic, another HeandShe... wow, who'd of thought! I just saw an ad on tv for HeadandShoulders shampoo. Seemed funny. This is a pointless post, but then again, it's fun to be random.

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Re:Where did the Revival Centres get their 'Gospel'?

Date Posted:01/10/2007 11:59 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : Te Luo Yi

Where did the Revival Centres get their 'Gospel'?(Continued...)'We Believe we are baptised into the Body of Christ (the Church) through the Holy Spirit, with the Bible evidence of speaking in tongues.' Whilst the Revival Centres originally drew a clear distinction between one's initial conversion and a subsequent baptism in the Holy Spirit, it would be erroneous to assume they ever truly held a traditional Pentecosta

This is a great and infrmative post. Especially for people who do not really  know the history of NHH and the GRC and the TRF and ......... All man made churches inforcing thier own beliefs on people. telling people how to speak, dress. Belittling people in having to ask if they may date even at the age of 3o yrs old.  Cowards and dictators..

I am still looking for the biblical reference that says if you do not attend the GRC pty ltd that you are going to hell.  Actually I am lookingt for any reference at all to NHH (self driven egotistically titled apostile) AKA fraud.! Where in the bible were you mentioned Noel?

In the above post it states clearly you had no ministrial training but now your a self appointed dictator?  

RCI prophesies
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