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Date Posted:26/07/2007 12:36 PMCopy HTML

Moth, dog, others, I just gonna cut and paste some scripture regarding hell, I would like us to go through these disect them please, I want this as open as poss not to be an yes of na just or a defend or attack. poss done befor however with out trolling through heaps of old stuff lets try here again.Mathew 2531"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory.32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in,36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you?39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink,43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
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Re:What the hell is HELL?

Date Posted:26/07/2007 5:24 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : earth5

Moth, dog, others, I just gonna cut and paste some scripture regarding hell, I would like us to go through these disect them please, I want this as open as poss not to be an yes of na just or a defend or attack. poss done befor however with out trolling through heaps of old stuff lets try here again.Mathew 2531"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory.32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come,

All my positions on this subject come from a Universalist perspective. I think it makes more sense than many other interpretations of the Bible. I don't want to get heavy, offensive and argumentative so as to promote this as 'thee' truth, but I think it certainly warrants some study. As you say, you find this subject almost incidental in relation to doing what you believe god asked of you (i.e. being christiany), but I think it's an important aspect of god's nature that should be explored. This is the god you want to 'sell' after all... and you don't want to preach a 'be a Christian, or go to hell' gospel... even by omission such a thing would be dishonest.

Matthew was teaching Jesus' principle of what is sometimes refered to as Kingdom living: In perspective, he was saying small acts of kindness have eternal value. I don't believe this to be a teaching about what merits salvation and what merits damnation and it is definitely not a teaching about the eternity of hell. Also, the Greek word 'aion' can be interpreted as "a long time" as well as "eternal".

More on Matthew's gospel and the word 'aion' in the next post.

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Re:What the hell is HELL?

Date Posted:26/07/2007 6:05 PMCopy HTML

Hello there just a couple of thoughts:

The King James Version has the phrase "everlasting punishment" only once and the phrase "everlasting destruction" only once. If this is the fate of most of mankind, why such little warning? "Aion" means an age I believe. I have seen it suggested that an adjective cannot take on a greater meaning than the noun, therefore "aionios", often translated in the KJV as "eternal" is probably more properly rendered as pertaining to an age(s).

I think that more and more bible translations are removing the word "hell" as being an inaccurate translation. The Hebrew "sheol" and the Greek "hades" mean the grave I think. The Greek word "gehenna" (used by Jesus which refers to fire), was the Valley of Hinnom where refuse etc was perpetually burned,having been turned into a giant rubbish dump by King Josiah (I think). This was an action taken by the king against God's people, who having picked up surrounding pagan religions, were burning their children there. Gehenna was a known geographical location and the Jews, to whom he used the word, would have known what he was referring to.

Moses didn't mention eternal torment. Paul (most of the NT) the Apostle never spoke of fiery 'hell", nor did John or Peter or Jude. It does beg the question why?

In my opinion, and I'm no expert on this, the Young's Literal Translation of the Holy Bible (1898) (like many bibles today), has translated this verse correctly as:

"And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during"

I'm not looking for endless arguments and I hope this helps.
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Re:What the hell is HELL?

Date Posted:26/07/2007 6:07 PMCopy HTML

hey moth just read this,

It is my firm belief that the Bible teaches Universal Salvation (or "Universal Reconciliation," as some prefer to call it), but I offer one word of caution. The spirit of deception doesn't recognize human labels, and long ago crossed all denominational barriers. Any universalist who denies the Deity of Christ, or who says that it doesn't matter what one believes, or how one lives, is deceived and deceiving. There is much of that deception abroad today, and you will find some of it among universalists. True Christian Universalism, however, reveres God's Word. It doesn't emphasize universal salvation at the expense of other scriptural teachings.Text to be made boldText to be made bold

What is your view on this?

From a universalism site
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Re:What the hell is HELL?

Date Posted:26/07/2007 6:28 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : earth5

The spirit of deception doesn't recognize human labels, and long ago crossed all denominational barriers. Any universalist who denies the Deity of Christ, or who says that it doesn't matter what one believes, or how one lives, is deceived and deceiving. There is much of that deception abroad today, and you will find some of it among universalists. True Christian Universalism, however, reveres God's Word. It doesn't emphasize universal salvation at the expense of other scriptural teachings.

No, we wouldn't want to go somewhere at the expense of the full gospel. That wouldn't be playing the game fairly. I think there's merit in the Universalist slant on the popular mainstream Christian beliefs and we'll see if it washes with you. Certainly no skin off my back if it doesn't, as your fate and the fate of others fall into the same ultimate state of reconciliation in this re-imagining... .

I can tell you right now that I doubt there's not a lot about this topic that I haven't considered before and therefore I'm very probably not going to budge (lol)... you're entirely free to feel the same way. Just being honest. Hypocritically perhaps, I don't even stand by with the absolution that the bible is the full, complete and perfectly inspired word of god, however I'm going to presume it is and stay in those parameters, or at least be willing to explore the original writer's intent in context... whoever it was.

I don't run with this magical and mystical sounding spirit of deception... but I do believe in human error. I don't apply labels to myself... (apart from agmothism) and although I appreciate some teachings that  align themselves with the Universalist bent, there are dozens of threads under it... just as there are in Christianity or any other major religion.

You might at some point interpret a view as 'denying the Deity of Christ'. Tell me if you do at any time during this particular discussion. I don't see a need to do that though... we can leave Him as completely Deis.


Moses didn't mention eternal torment. Paul (most of the NT) the Apostle never spoke of fiery 'hell", nor did John or Peter or Jude. It does beg the question why?

Excellent point Tarquin, and I'd like to present an in-depth study on the word Aion soon. I'd also like to start from Genesis and start off straight off the bat with the fact that the big names of the Old Testament, such as Moses (or what was spoken to Adam), didn't involve a never-ending chamber of Horrors and pain.

I wonder if Ian will swoop in to 'correct' me. Gotta be tempting.

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Re:What the hell is HELL?

Date Posted:26/07/2007 6:51 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : MothandRust



Reply to : earth5The spirit of deception doesn't recognize human labels, and long ago crossed all denominational barriers. Any universalist who denies the Deity of Christ, or who says that it doesn't matter what one believes, or how one lives, is deceived and deceiving. There is much of that deception abroad today, and you will find some of it among universalists. True Christian Universalism, however, reveres God's Word. It doesn't emphasize universal salvation at the expense of other scriptural teachings.No, we wouldn't want to go somewhere at the expense of the full gospel. That wouldn't be playing the game fairly. I think there's merit in the Universalist slant on the popular mainstream Christian beliefsand we'll see if it washes with you. Certainly no skin of





Moth do you consider your self a Christian universalist, or universilist in general ?
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Re:What the hell is HELL?

Date Posted:26/07/2007 6:59 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : earth5

Moth do you consider your self a Christian universalist, or universilist in general ?

I'm just a guy who reads universalist material... and christian material... and atheist material... and christian satire.. and Batman comic books. I don't really consider myself anything but Mothnostic

If I was forced at gunpoint to choose a religion or scriptural bent and stick to it... well... it's a mix of **** and ****.. perhaps I'd go with Christian Universalism if I had to choose between the two options you've put to me. But for a while now I've been leaping down this curious rabbit hole... check it out...  I don't expect  you to take on what are 'heretical' beliefs to some but if we play by the 'game' of sticking to scripture and not to personal doctrine we might get something out of it.

To humour this particular uni-gospel means adjusting one's understanding to take in the idea that God is perfect and that he will ultimately succeed in saving all mandkind. It's certainly not a popular viewpoint amongst Christians.. perhaps it makes them feel less important to their sky daddy... dunno.

So with that, let's consider that God is perfect, and can not fail to save everyone, let's take a look at your first set of scriptures: the separation of the sheep from the goats. What I wonder about is "when does this happen?" You might say. "When Jesus returns." But when? Day one? Or day two or day three?

Matthew 25:31-46 says: 31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:'... 41 Then He will say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:'...46 And these will go into everlasting punishment, (from kolasis, meaning "corrective punishment") but the righteous into eternal life."

I think that you'd agree with me that this is a judgment happening, but I'm putting to you that the result of this judgement is the saving of all, 'cause as I mused with earler... God is perfect and therefore can't fail to save everyone. <ready for this next crazy concept?>  the separating of the sheep from the goats, and the great white throne judgment, are the same event which both start at the 'end' of the millenium.

Revelation 20:11-15 reads: 11 "Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire."

If the great 'white-throne judgment' was after the 'Millenium' and those not in the 'book' were cast away, that'd be a 3rd death for those people. Death 1 is completed at the end of this life... The 2nd death is completed before Jesus' millenium thingy. And now, a 3rd death..? pffft

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Re:What the hell is HELL?

Date Posted:26/07/2007 10:02 PMCopy HTML

(cont.)

It's a figurative set of verses too... they're not actually sheep and they're not actually goats we're talking about... but some would think it's actually real fire that will purge them? Some Universalists believe the sheep/goat separation, and the great throne judgment, is at the end of the 1000 year reign of Jesus, after Satan's let loose. All the ones having parking tickets will pay the fixed penalty of having to die a second time.

The 1000 year reign of Jesus, is to resurrect all the dead, and get all 'educated'. At their resurrection they'll be in the original Eden situation, reconciled and redeemed by the atonement. It is at the end of the 1000 year reign that they have to pay the penalty of the second death, and are thrown into the symbolic lake of fire.
 
I don't fully get the whole sin thing, it's was easy as a Christian to spiel off the whole sacrice for 'born into sin' diatribe but I do get the basic idea. I've been finding myself adapting a morality rather than adopting one since leaving churchality. You can know what is right and wrong, but I think the message the Bible writer was making was that God is going to show everyone that they need divine intervention to truly shake it off.
 
I don't fully get the Univeraslist slant but what they're saying is that the goats will also be raised the moment the next one thousand years start because:
the next one thousand years is a jubilee. And God will have to pardon them the moment the jubilee trumpet sounds, and take them back to their first estate. Which means that if you went in a spirit, you will come out a spirit. If you went in a human, you will come out a human. Man is to inherit the earth, and Satan will have back his position of honour.

The sheep receive life because they are the atonement, and will be raised incorruptible. The goats receive life because they are under the jubilee pardon; they, also, will be raised incorruptible. According to this interpretation both the sheep and the goats will be resurrected at the same time!

1 Corinthians 15:55 says: "O Death, where is your sting?"

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Re:What the hell is HELL?

Date Posted:28/07/2007 12:46 PMCopy HTML

Question: "There is no HELL.. you are wrong.. Scriptures are speaking of "the grave".. "death".."

Response: That's what Satan would want you to believe.. Lucifer is not stupid.. he is the master at selling people on things.. He sold you if you think that HELL does not exist! Imagine your surprise when you wake up in a PIT and you find out he tricked you.. The only reason you want to believe there is no HELL is so you can continue to sin.. I was a major sinner and liked being evil.. but when GOD saved me from death and a PIT I changed real quick.. I deleted sin from my life since Satan used it as legal ground against me.. Sin is exactly what Satan needs to win your soul.. deep down inside your inner spirit senses that HELL is very real.. you can feel a warning inside your body.. listen to your spirit.. Jesus was very clear when he spoke of HELL as a place of everlasting punishment..

Rev 20:15 Jesus says: "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the LAKE OF FIRE."

Lake Of Fire falls short of sounding like "the grave"...


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Re:What the hell is HELL?

Date Posted:28/07/2007 12:51 PMCopy HTML

How many times have I heard someone say, "A loving God wouldn't put His creatures in hell." Well I have news for you, friend, God doesn't put anyone in hell--their sins put them there. Know ye not that hell was not created for man? Hell was created for the devil and his angels--

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, PREPARED FOR THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS. (Matthew 25:41)
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Re:What the hell is HELL?

Date Posted:28/07/2007 12:52 PMCopy HTML

God does not want you in hell! Jesus came to save you from that horrible place! Don't lie and say God puts people in hell! Get right with Jesus and you won't go there! Look at these scriptures:

As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die... (Ezekiel 33:11)

The Lord is...not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (II Peter 3:9)

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Re:What the hell is HELL?

Date Posted:28/07/2007 12:54 PMCopy HTML

Moth have a chew over these ones my friend

 

Regardless of whether you believe it or not, hell exists and the Bible says that it is never full. I've heard folks say that hell is not mentioned in the Bible or that hell is just the grave. Well, let's take a look at what the Bible says. Here are a few scriptures that deal with hell and the lake of fire (at the final judgment, hell, death and those not written in the book of life will be cast into the lake fire):

Matthew 25:41 (Jesus speaking to people at final judgment), ...Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.

Revelation 14:11, And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night...

Revelation 20:12, 15, And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life...And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Matthew 10:28, And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Luke 12:5, But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which AFTER he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

Matthew 18:8, 9 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or feet to be cast into everlasting fire. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

Matthew 25:46, And these shall go away into EVERLASTING punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

II Thessalonians 1:9 Who shall be punished with EVERLASTING destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power.

Isaiah 66:24, And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be abhorring unto all flesh.

Mark 9:44 (speaking of hell), Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Jude 7, Sodom and Gomorrha...are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Matthew 22:13, ...Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 13:41-42, The Son of man (Jesus) shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Revelation 21:8, But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Psalm 9:17, The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.

Isaiah 14:99-11, 15 (referring to Lucifer), Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee...all they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us? Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee...thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Daniel 12:2, And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and EVERLASTING contempt.

The following is a true story as told by the Lord Jesus in Luke 16:19-31:

19. There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20. And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21. And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23. And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

27. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28. For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

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Re:What the hell is HELL?

Date Posted:28/07/2007 1:22 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : earth5

How many times have I heard someone say, "A loving God wouldn't put His creatures in hell." Well I have news for you, friend, God doesn't put anyone in hell--their sins put them there. Know ye not that hell was not created for man? Hell was created for the devil and his angels--Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, intoeverlasting fire, PREPARED FOR THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS. (Matthew 25:41)
I can't accept that a wise and omni-omni god created or allowed any kind of an endless hell in his universe. It would be a huge blemish on his character and would always leave a bad smell in the nose of all those living in the adjacent 'heaven'.
  • Hell - (helan: Anglo-Saxon) helan, to cover, or hide, henee the tiling or slating of a house is called.
  • Sheol (Hebrew) & Hadees - (Greek) - neither word means afterlife torment, but rather a place, or state of death.... the word grave could always be substituted...
  • Hadees (a, not, and eulo) it means concealed and has exactly the same meaning as Sheol (grave or death)

Many heathen religions and 'blah' had their legends and folklores of subterrainean punishment scapes brought on by angry gods... and many used the O.T. sheol references to frame the idea around, but heck, even Moses never mentioned such an idea of eternal recompense. By the time Jesus started roaming the planet these hellish concepts were in full flight... but they didn't come from the Old Testament!! Yah, Ian is right.. Jesus borrowed them from the uninspired heathens. The Pagans et. al. held Hadees to be a place of eternal torment after death... this was their idea!!

Then came the whacky Christians who loved to muddy their own waters with doses of heathen ideas. Artists and poets alike revelled in the romanticised images of the writhing damned (yes these are my own words - lol). The idea caught on like wildfire (pun fully intended) and many christians have been vexed and confused ever since.

Hmm... ok.... so did Jesus endorse the idea?  Let's have a look.

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Re:What the hell is HELL?

Date Posted:28/07/2007 1:24 PMCopy HTML

Eternal...? I don't think that word means what you think it may mean... not always anyway:

Matt. 11: 23 and Luke 10: 15: And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to Hell (The city was overthrown and desolated... not eternally tormented)

Acts 2: 27: Thou wilt not leave my soul in Hell: neither wilt thou suffer thy holy one to see corruption."  (He died, but his soul was not left in the realms of death or punishment eternally, is the meaning.)

Matt. 14: 18 - and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it (Hell = destruction - He was saying that his church can't be destroyed)

I Cor. 15: 55: O death, where is thy sting?  then check Hos. 14: 14, where the destruction of Hadees is prophesied. It cannot be endless torment. (Ps. 30: 3; II Sam. 22: 5,6). - And death and Hell were cast into the lake of fire.

The parable of the rich man.

Whether the story is literal or parable, the rich dude's time in Hades would only be a temporary detention and not an endless one because "death and Hadees will deliver up their occupants". Rev. 20: 13. and Hadees is gonna be destroyed. I Cor. 15: 55; Rev. 20: 14. Therefore Hades is of temporary duration. The Rich Man was not in a place of endless torment.

Cast into hell-fire

And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into Hell-fire." Mark 9: 43, 49.

In other words... It's better to lose an unhealthy lifestyle than to face destruction... moreover there is no logic in a future punishment without end.

The worm and the fire

Isaiah 66: 24: "And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh."

So there ya go... it's not this fairytale future abyss that is going to be burning forever on writhing worms - hehe...

Some final text bites:

There is no mention of punishment after death...

Paul, Peter and Moses never mentioned it.

It was never employed by any Christian until Justin and Clement thus used it (A. D. 150) but not in an eternal context. 

Not only death but Hell shall be cast into the lake of fire.

"The Christian Church has never held it exclusively till now. It remained quite an open question till the age of Justinian, 530, and significantly enough, as soon as 200 years before that, endless torment for the heathen became a popular theory, purgatory sprang up synchronously by the side of it, as a relief for the conscience and reason of the church."

'Gehenna,' means primarily, the Valley of Hinnom outside of Jerusalem in which after it had been polluted by Moloch worship, corpses were flung and fires were lit;

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Re:What the hell is HELL?

Date Posted:28/07/2007 1:30 PMCopy HTML

Everlasting - aionios (does it mean 'eternal'?)

So earthy, most of your beliefs balance on this word 'eternal' - aionios... and you're probably thinking to yourself, "no matter how ludicrous and cruel this scheme of God's is, if he said it... it's how it is". With that in mind you have to understand the key word as it's meant to be read... and in context.

The Greek word aionios, of which eternal is a translation, does not mean without end, but means age lasting or indefinite but limited duration. If the writers of the New Testament had wanted to communicate that suffering in hell would be without end, they could have used the Greek word aidios (which means perpetual), but they didn't. They simply didn't.

Was Job in the waters forever? Nope...

And let us not forget: "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain:  for the former things are passed away." Revelation 21:4.

There cannot be both! You can't have both! There's either no more crying or pain or there is... your interpretation has God with a split personality. Revelation 21 only makes sense if you take the blinkers off the eternal only 'aionios' everlasting interpretation. You'd have to cut that verse out otherwise, and let's not go chopping up the good book so hastily eh? Sigh... Believe some verses and ignore others. Your particular version of God is a bit nasty I think...

1. One of the key passages is Matthew 25:46 where it is said that the rejected go away to eternal punishment, and the righteous to eternal life. The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. I think it is true to say that in all Greek secular literature kolasis is never used of anything but remedial punishment. The word for eternal is aionios. It means more than everlasting, for Plato - who may have invented the word - plainly says that a thing may be everlasting and still not be aionios. The simplest way to out it is that aionios cannot be used properly of anyone but God; it is the word uniquely, as Plato saw it, of God. Eternal punishment is then literally that kind of remedial punishment which it befits God to give and which only God can give. (www.godstruthfortoday.org/Library/barclay/barclay.htm)

2. There are other New Testament texts which people traditionally refer to and say these demonstrate "eternal punishment." A primary example is II Thessalonians 1:9. However, our English Bibles translate the Greek word "aion" or "aionios" as "eternal" or "everlasting" punishment in this text, but this Greek adjective also means: "age-enduring" or "pertaining to an age" or "long ages" and does not necessarily imply "endlessness" in all cases. (For an example of where this word is not translated as "eternal," see Romans 16:25 where it is usually translated as "long ages.") It seems in this case our presuppositions have driven our translations. Additionally, there are other, arguably better Greek words which imply "of endless duration" which are not being used here.  (http://www.franciscan-anglican.com/Universalism.htm)

I will say again that Scripture does NOT support the existence of an eternal hell. Read it and weep.. but not forever... you can stop weeping soon.

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Re:What the hell is HELL?

Date Posted:28/07/2007 1:41 PMCopy HTML


 Question:"There is no HELL.. you are wrong.. Scriptures are speaking of "the grave".. "death".."Response:That's what Satan would want you to believe.. Lucifer is not stupid..

No, people are stupid.

Rev 20:15 Jesus says: "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the LAKE OF FIRE."

What happens in fire pray tell? Things get consumed. If Hell is a place of neverending torment and the ultimate fate of all mankind unless they so something on earth to prevent it, why didn't God make that plain from the start? He said the penalty for eating of the Tree of the Knowledge was DEATH. He did NOT define death as eternal torment. My accusation is that such a God would be totally preposterous...

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Sounds Exactly like a grave... especially if you're being cremated... even if you're not, the bible says from dust you came and to dust you'll go back to. The grave is a place where one is turned into ash or dust. He didn't say from dust you came and eternal new body of pain you might turn into.

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Re:What the hell is HELL?

Date Posted:28/07/2007 1:47 PMCopy HTML

Your words in brackets, Earth 5

[1>The only reason you want to believe there is no HELL is so you can continue to sin.. 2>I was a major sinner and liked being evil.. but when GOD saved me from death and a PIT I changed real quick.. I deleted sin from my life since Satan used it as legal ground against me.. Sin is exactly what Satan needs to win your soul.. 3>deep down inside your inner spirit senses that HELL is very real.. you can feel a warning inside your body.. listen to your spirit]

1. There are plenty of reasons, besides that! That wouldn't even rate as the best reason. Sin is only a concept, at the end of that day. Its how one looks at and considers various behaviours or actions. To some, eating pork is a sin. To another, nothing wrong with that. Let's be HONEST here.... we all indulge at times in things that some would call sin, including things we ourselves might believe to be sinful. Its called being human. Anyways, we can (and do) continue in 'sin' whether or not we subscribe to the 'hell' notion. In very real terms, christians and non-christians alike ALL indulge in varying degrees of 'sin'.FACT

The only difference (might be) that christians will carry a great burden of self-condemnation and guilt (and FEAR) associated with their actions & behaviours. So, in essence, a christian is not forgiving himself, whereas a non-christian may have other means of dealing with their actions.

2. You are fibbing to yourself BIG-TIME, if you try to pretend you don't still like 'being evil' in some ways. Again good and evil are concepts, and they both are alive in ALL OF US. Things that might be considered 'evil' can/are still attractive to us in certain ways. You cannot honestly deny that you have a 'dark side' and don't give me that 'it's the devil' bullshit! "Deleted sin from your life" HUMBUG. It is there just the same. Its just your attitudes & beliefs surrounding it that may have changed.

3. That is a feeble attempt to superimpose your beliefs with the power of suggestion. Sounds a lot like the guy at the christian convention trying to tell Andrew Denton he had gold glory-dust on his hands in Denton's program 'God on my side'! Within the spirit that abides with me, I get very different messages (that remained for all the years I was in the RCI/RF, despite their indoctrination). To quote a wise young lady who inspires me with her songs..........

If I could say something to everyone in the world, I'd say, "you're all OK" (Jewel Kilcher).

That is the message that springs from the wells of my being!
Dog.

"for there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so" Shakespeare (Hamlet, Act 2, Scene 2)
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Re:What the hell is HELL?

Date Posted:28/07/2007 5:51 PMCopy HTML

Regardless of whether you believe it or not, hell exists and the Bible says that it is never full. I've heard folks say that hell is not mentioned in the Bible or that hell is just the grave. Well, let's take a look at what the Bible says. Here are a few scriptures that deal with hell and the lake of fire (at the final judgment, hell, death and those not written in the book of life will be cast into the lake fire):

Regardless of whether you believe it or not the invisible pink unicorn will eat all of your shoes after you die. These sort of statements are nonsensical to make before we die. No one's come back from the grave with proof there's a fiery torture chamber waiting there for us. Your views on hell are based on the fear-mongering times of the dark ages and are common misconceptions amongst mainstream Christendom. I'm saVvy enough to know now that tongues isn't a biblical proof of salvation according to the purpose of the original writer/s, and I believe it's completely laughable for anyone to think otherwise. I feel the same about hell. To call 'your' god just and describe the eternal punishment theology in the same sentence is an injustice to the bible God's perfect justice and would be laughable except for the fact that it's sadly popular.

Matthew 25:41 (Jesus speaking to people at final judgment), ...Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.

See the study in this thread on the word 'aionios'.

Revelation 14:11, And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night...

But that does not necessarily mean that their torment lasts forever; only the smoke does. And you can't go melding the poetic license of this very symbolic book with the narrative and letter style of others. eg. seven headed beast? The idea of torment being forever does not necessarily mean endless according to the Bible. If you trace the word through Scripture you will find numerous things described as "forever" that were not endless but endured as long as necessary to fulfill their purpose, such as the Jewish Passover being forever (Ex. 12:24) and Solomon's temple being forever (1 Kings 8:13). See also the post in this thread entitled "Eternal...? I don't think that word means what you think it may mean..."

Revelation 20:12, 15, And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life...And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Very symbolic book again... but follow the analogy - What happens when you throw a rubber boot into a lake of fire? Think about it.

Matthew 10:28, And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

You're proving the case for annihilism here... check the word 'destroy'. The most powerful, definitive words in human language are used to describe the destruction in hell, but people still insist that the writers do not really mean what their words express.  "Destroy," "consume," "burn up," "devour," "death"--do these words have some mysterious, opposite meaning in the Bible than they have in other books?

Luke 12:5, But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which AFTER he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

Yep, scary god. Nice one Luke... no argument here for eternal punishment however.

Matthew 18:8, 9 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or feet to be cast into everlasting fire. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

See the study in this thread on the word 'aionios'.

Matthew 25:46, And these shall go away into EVERLASTING punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

See the study in this thread on the word 'aionios'.

II Thessalonians 1:9 Who shall be punished with EVERLASTING destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power.

See the study in this thread on the word 'aionios'.

Isaiah 66:24, And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be abhorring unto all flesh. Mark 9:44 (speaking of hell), Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Did you add the (speaking of hell) brackets? You lumped this into the eternal torture myth in much the same way Revivalists throw every mention of language and tongue into their scenarios. Jesus was describing a desolation and used the word Gehenna.. obviously he was relating it to the death and destruction they could see plainly in the valley, where the worm and fire consumed bodies. Once again.. DEATH. Jesus was referencing Isaiah 66 (the overthrow of Jerusalem which was soon to come?).

Jude 7, Sodom and Gomorrha...are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Is Sodom and Gomorrha still burning? I think not.  A similar reference in 2 Peter 2:6 says those wicked cities were reduced to ashes and condemned to destruction, which is what eternal fire meant. That is, it was fire that burned until it accomplished its purpose.

Matthew 22:13, ...Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Okay... I'm sure there would be if there's some time of 'finite' punishment involved. ie. Not an argument for infinite punishment.

Matthew 13:41-42, The Son of man (Jesus) shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Okay... again, I'm sure there would be if there's punishment involved of a finite nature. ie. Not an argument for infinite punishment.

Revelation 21:8, But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Notice the word 'death'... sort of a give-away.

Psalm 9:17, The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.

Okay. All these things will be 'destroyed' or consumed.

Isaiah 14:99-11, 15 (referring to Lucifer), Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee...all they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us? Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee...thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Weird verse isn't it.I thought you said before that it wasn't a grave? This verse says 'grave'.

Daniel 12:2, And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and EVERLASTING contempt.

See the study in this thread on the word 'aionios'.

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Re:What the hell is HELL?

Date Posted:28/07/2007 6:31 PMCopy HTML

While you're raking though all that stuff Earthy, it'd be important to reconcile the following verses in Jeremiah as they have some bearing.

"For I am merciful, saith the Lord, and I will not keep anger forever." (Jeremiah 3:12)
"Ye have kindled a fire in mine anger, which shall burn forever." (Jeremiah 17:4)

And as for the judgement:

And Jesus said, "For judgement I am come into this world." (John 9:39)
"I came not to judge the world" (John 12:47)

Speaking of your reward in heaven... Do you want to shine your light... or not?

"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." (Matthew 5:16)
"Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven." (Matthew 6:1)

And just before you tie the old testament reference to 'worms' with the new testament (which mentions grave) consider the following:

"Jacob said, 'I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.'" (Genesis 32:30)
"No man hath seen God at any time." (John 1:18)

Furthermore... is Jesus himself going to hell? Check out the following verses:

"But anyone who says 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell." (Jesus) Mat 5:22

"You fools!" (Jesus) Luke 11:40
"You blind fools!" (Jesus) Mat 23:17
"How foolish you are" (Jesus) Luke 24:25

"But God said to him, 'You fool!' " (Jesus) Luke 12:20

"You foolish Galatians!" (St. Paul) Galatians 3:1
"You foolish man" James 2:20

(Also - Psalms 14:1 and again at 53:1 - you have to think me a fool because I have said in my heart that there is no God  - oops, both of us in hell now!)

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Re:What the hell is HELL?

Date Posted:29/07/2007 12:07 AMCopy HTML

Everlasting (Part 2) - is devouring the same thing as everlasting?

Isaiah 33:14 - The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

Isaiah speaks of "everlasting burnings" in his prophecy but, in the same breath, calls it a "devouring" fire. And he specifically says no one can dwell or live there. No eternal torment here... sorry!

And again we have the word that seems to defy the logic of ignorant modern day linguists - "devouring"... like "Destroy," "consume," "burn up," "devour," "death" -- I ask again, do these words have some mysterious, opposite meaning in the Bible than they have in other books? It contradicts the word everlasting, unless you realise the word pertains to an indefinite time rather than an infinite time.

Can this word "aion" be consistently translated one way and make sense without bringing about contradictions in the Bible? The answer is yes! Uh-huh uh-huh... Can this word be consistently translated with words that indicate "eternity?" The answer is no! Nup... 'fraid not. Let's see how the Bible would read if we translated this word "aion" into eternity in some passages where it appears. We would get some of the following kinds of reading:

"This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of eternity (aionios)." (2 Tim. 1:9)

There can be no time before "eternity."

"According to the revelation of the mystery hidden for eternity (aionios) past." (Rom. 16:25)

If it was hidden in eternity, it can never happen... geddit? Gottit? Good. next... 

"Who gave Himself for our sins to rescue us from the present evil eternity (aion)." (Gal. 1:4)

"The harvest is the end of this eternity (aion)." (Matt. 13:39)

What then? another eternity???

"Who tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming eternity (aion)." (Heb. 6:5) [There is only one eternity, not past and future ones.]

As one can see, when we translated this word consistently with eternity, the scriptures make no sense at all.

link Link2

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Re:What the hell is HELL?

Date Posted:29/07/2007 8:18 AMCopy HTML

Hi mothandrust

I'd just like to say that what you have presented is an expert piece of work. Your points are unanswerable, and you have presented it extremely well, particularly in showing the actual meanings of "aion" and "aionios".

You have cut through the myths and preconceptions as well as anybody has. Well done.

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Re:What the hell is HELL?

Date Posted:29/07/2007 1:36 PMCopy HTML


Christians say that without hell, what stops us from sinning? The following is a good article from an Athiest homepage.

There have been countless theists, both those seeking to make converts of atheists and those preaching to the faithful, who have asserted that without belief in God there can be no basis for morality but the individual's arbitrary whim. This is yet another lamentable example of how religion tries to take exclusive possession of an entire area fundamental to human existence, proclaiming that without its permission, one cannot behave like a human being. This is not the case. Atheists are human beings also, and we are no less moral simply because we ground our ethics in human nature and the happiness of others rather than unquestioning faith in a set of ancient writings. Atheists are moral not because we are commanded to be, but because we want to be.

Divine command morality, by contrast, is lacking because it offers no better reason to behave than the promise of reward and the threat of punishment - in other words, a carrot and stick. It assumes that people are basically immoral and cannot be trusted to do right unless they are lured into it, nor can they be trusted to abstain from wrong unless they are frightened away from it. It postulates that, like untrained animals, we have to be constantly chastised by a transcendent lawgiver whenever we stray from the straight and narrow. The potentially harmful repercussions of holding such a dim view of human nature should be obvious. Rather than encouraging us to seek the best option through reason and empathy, it promotes dogmatism, blind submission to authority and intolerance of differing opinions. Rather than teaching us that we are morally mature and have the capability to do right, it teaches that we are sinners inherently incapable of controlling ourselves, thus actually encouraging immoral behavior. Finally, it actually denies the valuation of doing good for its own sake that should be at the heart of any ethical system, instead promoting fear and selfishness. If a theist's fear of divine punishment is the only thing preventing him from doing evil to everyone around him, or if he would never do any good deeds if he didn't expect to get something in return, then such a person isn't really very moral at all, is he?

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Re:What the hell is HELL?

Date Posted:29/07/2007 1:37 PMCopy HTML


This is the rest of the article:

In opposition to this, universal utilitarianism - the basis of an atheist's morality - is a system that respects human intelligence and decency. It assumes that people can be trusted to do what's right without being promised a Heaven or threatened with a Hell. Most importantly, it encourages free thought: rather than coerce people with threats or accustom them to unquestioning obedience, it requires that they learn the basic principles of ethical behavior and come to accept them freely. Although it is based around a universally applicable central principle, it is flexible and adaptive, and can be refined and extended as society evolves. This is a valuable factor, since the diffusion of human culture and the ever-accelerating growth of our technology is bound to bring us into contact with new ethical dilemmas. When this happens, universal utilitarianism will be ready to meet them while those still wedded to dogma search in vain for guidance from their static, changeless scripture.

These texts seem more than a little outdated in another, more important way. Not only do they not provide guidance for many moral dilemmas of the modern world, the holy texts of most religions in existence today still enshrine practices and beliefs such as racism, slavery, holy war, government by monarchy and theocracy, the suppression of free inquiry, the institutional inequality of women, and cruel, violent punishments for the most trifling crimes, or acts that are not crimes at all. It is passages like these that reveal these moral systems for what they are: a cruel and inhumane relic of a past era. Humanity has grown beyond this, and so it deserves to be replaced with a better alternative. As we proceed inevitably into the future, atheist morality - the only system of morality that does not rely on an ineffable carrot and an infinite stick - is the best choice to guide us in the years to come.
From website http://www.ebonmusings.org/atheism/carrot&stick.html#part6

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Re:What the hell is HELL?

Date Posted:29/07/2007 5:44 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : earth5


I know if I close my eyes and say there is no hell there is no hell, there is no hell, I will be set free, and then i can put on my ruby slippers and click them 3 times too, i can go hoem to kanses.......... lol

Just like the tongues doctrine we once defended to the hilt, we dismiss other beliefs because we already 'know' our own to be true, usually because our 'pastor' told us so, I think at times... and they're always smart guys who don't rock the boat. Your thoughts Earth? I don't expect you to agree with me, but I hope you can find time to consider them and put some thought into finding some more scriptures for me to sort through and test. I still have some previous scriptures you threw at me to respond to.

Chew over these thoughts... I put in the time chewing over yours, don't click your heels just yet, you're still yet to meet the wizard ... (ps. the following is not a cut&paste):

Ongoing endless torture or degrees of punishment?

Clever Universalists don't subscribe to the view that there won't be punishment after death. Far from it... that'd be completely unscriptural! It's very clear from the bible scriptures that there are degrees of punishment... or correction or chastisement. No point in correcting or chastising someone if there's nothing to learn from it. Agree?

The 'Fundy Ongoing Hell literalists" (FOWLs for short) have their 'perfectly judging god' throwing everyone into two baskets: 1. The Heaven basket, and 2. the eternal torture basket. He weighs up their lives according to his perfect wisdom and lets the Born-again Christians into Heaven while throwing all the rest into a chastisement from which there is no escape or end.

Would a fair judge throw someone into prison for downloading an mp3 file for the same time he would throw a bank robber? Should their be degrees of chastisement or correction to fit the crime? The bible more than alludes to that concept and when read in this way, it doesn't make him out to be such an illogical and unfair git.

Examples of various degrees of punishment:

  • Mathew 11: Jesus promised the people of Capernaum that it would be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgement than for them.
  • Luke 12:46-48: The servant who knew the Lord's will and did it not will receive many stripes, while the servant who sins but in ignorance will receive few stripes.
  • James 3:1 says that the masters "shall receive the greater condemnation.
  • Matthew 23:13-14: The corrupt pharisees will also receive the greater damnation. This could only point to a greater punishment in hell.

Earth5...

The bible hell is certainly something to be avoided. Jesus et al. wouldn't have put such vivid imagery into the metaphor if it wasn't going to be exceedingly bad. But It has to fit the crime because God has stated in his word and commandment about not punishing those who deserved to be whipped with more lashes than is right (Exodus 21: 23-25).

It's also worth pointing out that this assumes that time as we know it continues to pass after the final judgment, which is not necessarily the case. There may simply be an eternal moment, where time does not pass or where we no longer experience it as we do now.

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Re:What the hell is HELL?

Date Posted:29/07/2007 9:23 PMCopy HTML

Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket

- There's none of that annoying check-in procedure like with St. Peter.
- Due to recent health code changes, vats of boiling brimstone now use low-fat canola oil.
- Your "Do you smell something burning?" slays 'em, year after year.
- Plenty of legal help available for filing "wrongful death" lawsuit.
- Newly passed law: Three strikes and you're back in LA.
- Satan's confused attempts to torture masochists can be highly entertaining.
- Well, sure, it's hot, but it's a *dry* heat.
- Free prostate checks and PAP smears administered daily!
- Every Thursday is Karaoke Night, hosted by Dean Martin and Sammy Davis, Jr.
- Prizes awarded for best crank phone calls to God.
- Everywhere you look, there's a smoking section!
- Big step up from Moranbah.
- Your little "blue flame" trick now produces spectacular results.
- Free Microsoft software for everyone (as per agreement made back in early 80's).
- Now that you've followed her advice, you just might get that date with Cindy Crawford.
- 52 smmmmmokin' channels of Jim Carrey!
- Saturday night WWF tag-team bout between Genghis Khan, Vlad the Impaler, and Hitler.
- Everyone gets a length of pipe and a daily crack at Nancy Kerrigan's knee.
- Fortune to be made on "Welcome, O.J." t-shirts.

Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket

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Re:What the hell is HELL?

Date Posted:30/07/2007 6:16 PMCopy HTML

Ok Earth and interested parties... before we go on and while you're Selah-ing, is it possible to answer these questions?

  1. At the start: When the low-down on life after death was given to Adam and Eve (the first people god communicated with) did he warn them about neverending torment? Or did he sum it up with death, and dust to dust? Easy one to answer... one of the other.
  2. Everlasting: Does the word 'everlasting' (aionios) always mean forever... yes or no?
  3. and lastly for now: Do you think it's ok that God said to love our enemies while you believe he created a torture chamber to eternally torment his?

 

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Re:What the hell is HELL?

Date Posted:30/07/2007 7:28 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : MothandRust



Ok Earth and interested parties... before we go on and while you're Selah-ing, is it possible to answer these questions?At the start:When the low-down on life after death was given to Adam and Eve (the first people god communicated with) did he warn them about neverending torment? Or did he sum it up with death, and dust to dust? Easy one to answer... one of the other.Everlasting: Does the word 'everlasting' (aionios)always mean forever... yes or no?and lastly for nowo you think it's ok that God said to love our enemies while you believe he created a torture chamber to eternally torment his?





1. Simply dust to dust
2. No it does not.
3. The eternal torture chamber is a myth, and in this thread you have demonstrated this.
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Re:What the hell is HELL?

Date Posted:31/07/2007 11:59 AMCopy HTML

i think an inportant point to think about is that satan will eventualy be released from the lake of fire- if satan, an angel who not only saw heavan and the face of god but was his most favoured angel will be realeased why wouldnt people???

what sin could a man any man, even the most evil possibly compare to the sin of satan??

 

 

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Re:What the hell is HELL?

Date Posted:31/07/2007 1:58 PMCopy HTML

http://www.tentmaker.org/index.html
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Re:What the hell is HELL?

Date Posted:10/08/2007 11:32 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : earth5

Earth5, you said: Regardless of whether you believe it or not, hell exists and the Bible says that it is never full. I've heard folks say that hell is not mentioned in the Bible or that hell is just the grave.

Yet now you're telling me that the Bible says 31 times from the Hebrew "Sheol," that it means "the grave" and other references in the New Testament give it a meaning also as grave, along with place of burning, and darkness.

You didn't elaborate on any of these texts or try to find some context for them.

From what we've discussed earlier would you care to reply to the questions I've already asked without takine LukeGWM's tactic of cut and pasting unexplained scriptures to prove a point. I'll rephrase them for you (please answer with more than just a yes or a no, if you would be so kind):

Four Question to Earth5 personally please...

  1. At the start: When the low-down on life after death was given to Adam and Eve (the first people god communicated with) did he warn them about neverending torment? Or did he sum it up with death, and dust to dust?
  2. Everlasting: Does the word 'everlasting' (aionios) always mean forever... How do you determine when the word is used in a finite sense (as it can usually be seen) rather than the enending infinite sense that you equate with Hell torture?
  3. Do you think it's ok that God said to love our enemies while you believe he created a torture chamber to eternally torment his?
  4. Do you disagree with the scripture that more than hint varying degrees of punishment after this life? Would you like me to show you more? What do you think such scriptures might mean? Will you have to ask a pastor first?
From hereon in, please consider my request to leave some personal commentation with your future posts and scripture references... or simply don't bother. I won't play anymore if that's how it's gonnna go.

 

 

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Re:What the hell is HELL?

Date Posted:30/08/2007 12:33 PMCopy HTML

To Ian,

I would be most interested in your views on hell re this discussion (not trying to be a prat a genuine request)

e5

 

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Re:What the hell is HELL?

Date Posted:30/08/2007 1:09 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : earth5

E5,

To Ian,I would be most interested in your views on hell re this discussion (not trying to be a prat a genuine request)

My own view of the subject is that this has become one of the most contentious issues of adiaphora that this site has ever seen!

In any case, the orthodox Christian teaching on the subject of 'hell' has always been far from being monolithic in nature. Consequently, some noted Christian Fathers viewed hell as: (1) strictly metaphorical. Others have perceived it to consist of: (2) everlasting torment, (3) temporal torment, (4) everlasting separation from the presence of God, or (5) temporal separation from the presence of God. The issue, so far as I can tell, has principally revolved around two competing concerns: whether hell is intended to be (1) punitive in nature, or (2) corrective in nature. Throughout the history of the Church there have been advocates of both positions. However, 'annihilationism', that is the view that both body and soul of the wicked are destroyed forever in hell (also known as 'conditional immortality'), was condemned as heresy around (from memory) the 7th century. In any case, different people (both here and elsewhere) have and will appeal to different biblical 'proof-texts', in order to support and 'shore-up' different preferred theories. Consequently, one needs to keep something of an open mind on the issue

Now that the very brief history lesson on this aspect of eschatology has concluded, my personal view is that Scripture, when taken in its entirety, presents the picture that one pretty much gets one 'shot' at things during this life, and that one's eternal state is irrevocably fixed at death. Due to this, and my study of the matter, I lean towards point number four above, that 'hell' equals everlasting separation from the presence of God. The issue for me, however, has much less to do with 'hell' as a concept than it does with 'judgment' as a concept. There remains a considerable difference between the effects and outcomes of two, a difference which I believe has been largely overlooked by the various correspondents on the issue, here

Blessings,

Ian
email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:What the hell is HELL?

Date Posted:30/08/2007 1:30 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : Didaktikon

Reply to : earth5E5,To Ian,I would be most interested in your views on hell re this discussion (not trying to be a prat a genuine request)My own view of the subject is that this has become one of the most contentious issues ofadiaphorathat this site has ever seen!In any case, the orthodox Christian teaching on the subject of 'hell' hasalwaysbeen far from being monolithic in nature. Consequently, some noted Christian Fathers viewed hell as: (1) strictly metaphorical. Others have perceived it to consist of: (2) everlasting torment, (3) temporal torment, (4) everlasting separation from the presence of God, or (5) temporal separation from the presence of God. The issue, so far as I can tell, has principally revolved around two competing c

ok thanks for that.

my view like yours  ( i think) is essentially the everlasting seperation from the presence of God, in my limited understanding of the word.

My next question is, does that seperation after judgement lead to what has been traditionally know /taught as the hell fire and brimstone thing, or is it simply after being in the presence of God and knowing what could have been and then been removed from that is that hell in its self?

respectfully

e5

 

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Re:What the hell is HELL?

Date Posted:30/08/2007 1:37 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : earth5

E5,

Well, I've pretty much said my peace on the matter. You're now asking questions which, to be blunt, are irrelevant in light of what was shared in my previous post

Blessings,

Ian
email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:What the hell is HELL?

Date Posted:30/08/2007 4:58 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : Didaktikon

Reply to : earth5E5,Well, I've pretty much said my peace on the matter. You're now asking questions which, to be blunt, areirrelevantin light of what was shared in my previous postBlessings,Ian

thank you dida, however dont agree re irrelevence, it is a serious question one of which i feels needs an response as opposed to a brush of

it would seem that one of the other ie out of the presence of God or hell fire may be 2 different things and I was actually hopeing that you may be able to answer

e5

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Re:What the hell is HELL?

Date Posted:30/08/2007 5:48 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : Didaktikon



own view of the subject is that this has become one of the most contentious issues ofadiaphorathat this site has ever seen!In any case, the orthodox Christian teaching on the subject of 'hell' hasalwaysbeen far from being monolithic in nature. Consequently, some noted Christian Fathers viewed hell as: (1) strictly metaphorical. Others have perceived it to consist of: (2) everlasting torment, (3) temporal torment, (4) everlasting separation from the presence of God, or (5) temporal separation from the presence of God. The issue, so far as I can tell, has principally revolved around two competing c





Above = Ian's way of saying the bible is AMBIGUOUS AS HELL!


Dog.
"for there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so" Shakespeare (Hamlet, Act 2, Scene 2)
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Re:What the hell is HELL?

Date Posted:02/09/2007 9:41 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : dogmafree

'Morning, Dog.

Above = Ian's way of saying the bible is AMBIGUOUS AS HELL!

Hardly. Accepting the notion that the message of Scripture can be interpreted in several ways when it comes to issues of adiaphora is altogether different to accepting the notion that the message of Scripture in it's entirety is somehow ambiguous. Forgive me, but yours is quite the clutch (actually, more like a flailing 'grasp'), and is demonstrative of the possibility that you haven't yet comprehended what Scripture purports to be

Blessings,

Ian
email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:What the hell is HELL?

Date Posted:02/09/2007 9:48 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : earth5

E5,

thank you dida, however dont agree re irrelevence, it is a serious question one of which i feels needs an response as opposed to a brush of

Good for you.

it would seem that one of the other ie out of the presence of God or hell fire may be 2 different things and I was actually hopeing that you may be able to answer

Why? This isn't an issue that I have a particularly 'burning' (boom, boom) interest in. Perhaps you could start doing a little first-hand study into the use of metaphorical language in Scripture. Or alternatively, you could reflect a little more deeply on what I had to say in my previous post re: 'hell' and 'judgment'. Either one (or both) should prove fruitful.

Blessings,

Ian
email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:What the hell is HELL?

Date Posted:03/09/2007 8:36 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : brolga

Hi, Brolga.

...will know they will never be able to be in His "presence" and only inhabit the earth and not heaven.

Careful, bloke. It looks like you might be slipping towards the "we Christians go to heaven when we die" type of folk belief. The fact is, from a biblical perspective, the resurrection and the restoration will be physical. The earth will be renewed, and the redeemed will enjoy it in the age to come. 'Heaven', properly speaking, is the sphere of God's presence ('Lahad' touched on this recently with his 'Kingdom of Heaven' piece). What it isn't is a place 'up there, in the sky'.

Blessings,

Ian
email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:What the hell is HELL?

Date Posted:04/09/2007 12:08 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : brolga

Reply to : DidaktikonReply to : brolgaHi, Brolga....will know they will never be able to be in His "presence" and only inhabit the earth and not heaven.Careful, bloke. It looks like you might be slipping towards the "we Christians go to heaven when we die" type of folk belief. The fact is, from a biblical perspective, the resurrection and the restoration will bephysical. The earth will be renewed, and the redeemed will enjoy it in the age to come. 'Heaven', properly speaking, is thesphere of God's presence('Lahad' touched on this recently with his 'Kingdom of Heaven' piece). What itisn'tis a place 'up there, in the sky'.Blessings,IanHi Ian, I'm still sifting through things after Revival. Lot of crap thinking still in there. On to a "good virus" remover though.

Brolga, please don't take me wrong here but I would suggest to you that you prayerfully consider becoming part of a local church. You said in private communication with me that you have had Garry Ablett, former AFL footy hero who is now part of an AOG church dropping around occasionally for a cuppa. Brother there is your cue. Look be serious for a moment and consider there is no such thing as a perfect church but on the other hand dabbling with the RF, whom Diktaktikon has soundly warned are highly errant in responsible handling of the Word of God, is not a wise option either.  But with your footy friend dropping around there could be a nice opening for you to start regularly attending a home/cell gathering fellowship that Gary will no doubt be actively a part of and there brother you can start to build friendships. Look it is rather daunting walking into a major church service on a sunday of the street. But with the home church/ cell group where you have about a dozen folk meeting in a home somewhere is a nice but sound start to dumping all that RF nonsense out of your life altogether . Consider it brother and see what God has in store for you..

( BTW, I'll back the CATS in this years AFL footy Grand Final just for you. . Me thinks that if Diktaktikon has any footy curiosities, he'd be probably a Sydney Swans man  

blessings

Lahad

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Re:What the hell is HELL?

Date Posted:04/09/2007 9:22 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : brolga

 

I have explored a couple of groups (AOG connected) and not impressed, they are too 'Yankee-fied'  for my liking. I was a bit surprised what you mentioned in email about that. They profess to be 'Pentecostal' and operate similar cultures to Revival Centres. Next stop, The Uniting Church, just around corner from me.


 

The point is Brolga, the Gospel, although aimed at the individual person, is really about being community focused.. About being " yankee-fied" well every group has its own flavour. But it is not the question of flavour, it is the message being carried . Look I watched a DVD earlier this week about a Coptic Priest, who works in the reject slum suburbs of Cairo, called Father Samaan and here is this man with his glowing long white beard, dressed in a long black dress and dangling a big gold cross around his neck. Many folk would be turned off by this approach but this man knows the Holy Spirit and God has used Father Samaan to really transform and revolutionize an entire deprived and impoverished community within Cairo !!!  So don't get too carried away about the differences of approach. However what I am suggesting to you is that although we are individuals etc, but above that we are community and God builds community in by corporately gathering believers together in a believing community. Brother we are each called to serve and that service can only be carried out in a community context. The home cell group is a great positive way to enter that community and become involved..... And this is where the RF fails because it is shuts it self away and people within the RF fail to realize their true potential in Christ and this potential is only found in serving one another..

blessings

Lahad    

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Re:What the hell is HELL?

Date Posted:07/09/2007 4:00 PMCopy HTML

Missing image

In shattered past I took the dive
Weezing thick air but still alive
ripping the wings out from my back
the bones and muscles, mine to hack

Thumping along Earth to and fro
crushing your spirits as I go
This world is mine, this is my hour
Souls of ignorance, I devour

I smile wide while I see rape
I grin with this forced fornicate
Singing shrilly when watching kills
This people watching gives me thrills

Fallen from heaven... I fell well
now plunging further, I'm in hell
and my reward for tempting you?
Dining upon your wet sinew

I am a tool, I am god's hound
he feeds me souls here underground
What joy I have! Eternity!
Here I can just be good ol' me
 
?Peter Bainbridge, All rights reserved
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Re:What the hell is HELL?

Date Posted:27/09/2007 8:51 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : MothandRust

Pete,

Well that was a very dumb and misinformed caricature of the biblical message I'm wondering when you'll decide to put aside the easily erected and demolished 'straw-men' arguments, and engage with something a little more substantial?

Blessings,

Ian
email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:What the hell is HELL?

Date Posted:03/10/2007 4:41 PMCopy HTML

love this Pommy guy...very distinguished looking - funny

He is getting an amazing amount of feedback on youtube

Click here to read...

Hi, I'm Pat Condell.
I don't respect your beliefs
and I don't care if you're offended.
Cheers.

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Re:What the hell is HELL?

Date Posted:08/10/2007 8:36 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : MothandRust

love this Pommy guy...very distinguished looking - funnyHe is getting an amazing amount of feedback on youtubeClick here to read...Hi, I'm Pat Condell.I don't respect your beliefsand I don't care if you're offended.Cheers.

That was hilarious.  Moth you are fabulous!  After days and nights of getting up to date with all of what has happened here for the last couple of years, I think your post is perfect and couldn't agree more with this guy.  Will have to do some checking out of youtube myself for a laugh.

Would love to see him in a debate with Tony Addison.... that would be interesting!  Go the atheists!   It's about time the human race started to question things more openly and honestly.  OHHHH the absurdity of it all.  

Thanks for the belly laugh, haven't had one of those for a while...

 

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Re:What the hell is HELL?

Date Posted:26/12/2007 1:36 AMCopy HTML

By Gabe

I have a serious question concerning the Bible's teaching on the doctrine of hell. Actually I have several serious questions concerning this teaching, but I'll focus on just one point for the sake of time. I'm sure almost all of us at some point in our lives have been to church and heard a preacher giving a sermon on the topic of hell. During my years when I was very religious, I had a favorite sermon entitled, "Hell, Fire, and Damnation." Actually it wasn't a sermon, but rather a five part sermon series. It was preached by my favorite pastor, Dr. Roy Hargrave, who is the senior pastor of Riverbend Community Church, a very large Southern Baptist church located in Ormond Beach, Florida. A friend of mine sat through one of the sermons during a Sunday morning service, and the sermon was so intense and terrifying that he caught a glance of a young college-age girl sitting in the same row literally trembling in her seat, while listening to the pastor describe in vivid detail the unimaginable horror and torment that awaited her if she did not convert.

The entire sermon series is heavily influenced by a sermon that was preached nearly 300 years ago by Jonathan Edwards titled, "Sinners In The Hands Of An Angry God." This sermon helped ignite the Great Awakening, due to the fact that it simply terrified people into converting. Here is just a small sample of this message:

"It would be dreadful to suffer this fierceness and wrath of Almighty God one moment; but you must suffer it to all eternity. There will be no end to this exquisite horrible misery. When you look forward, you shall see a long for ever, a boundless duration before you, which will swallow up your thoughts, and amaze your soul; and you will absolutely despair of ever having any deliverance, any end, any mitigation, any rest at all. You will know certainly that you must wear out long ages, millions of millions of ages, in wrestling and conflicting with this almighty merciless vengeance; and then when you have so done, when so many ages have actually been spent by you in this manner, you will know that all is but a point to what remains."

Although I have never been eloquent enough to describe hell is such vivid detail, nevertheless I preached and taught this doctrine for several years. But even while I was a student in seminary, I had a very difficult question in my mind concerning this topic. My question is this: Why is the Old Testament almost totally silent on the teaching of hell? I'm sure someone will quote a verse (and I could quote a few myself) to argue that the OT does indeed support the existence of hell, but these very few verses are so few and far between that it should disturb anyone who has studied the Bible, when asking yourself why the Old Testament spend such a small amount of time discussing a topic of such vast importance.

In the entire Old Testament, there is really only one verse that could easily be interpreted as a reference to the idea of eternal punishment in hell. The verse is Daniel 12:2.

"Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, some to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt."

Even if we assume this verse is speaking of eternal torment, it raises another question: Why does it only say that "MANY of those who sleep in the dust will awake?" Why does it not say, "ALL of those who sleep in the dust will awake?" Is this verse implying that only a certain portion of those who have died will experience an afterlife? Are there some who will not experience an afterlife? I think it is easy to see how someone could interpret this verse in this manner. My point in bringing this side-note up is not at all to get off track discussing the universality or limited nature of an afterlife, but rather to point out that if one chooses to use this verse to defend the claim that the Old Testament supports the idea of eternal punishment, you have uncovered another problem due to the wording of the text.

But let us get back on track. Here is the main point I want to raise. The book of Daniel is said to have been written in the 6th century BC (although many scholars say the 2nd century BC). And the first books of the Bible are said to have been written around the 14th or 15th century BC (although conservative and liberal scholars debate this as well). So here is my question: If the book of Daniel is the first book of the Old Testament that mentions the idea of eternal torment in hell, why did the Bible wait 900 years to warn its readers about something this serious? If there really is an eternal torture chamber, it seems like the Bible would be absolutely sure to include this teaching on the very first page! I would say that is some REALLY important information to be leaving out!! Could you imagine a person dying who lived during the time of Moses, which would have been hundreds of years before the book of Daniel was written, and waking up in the eternal furnace of fire and screaming, "Oh my God, why wasn't I warned about this?!!"

I have thought about this question, and while I am sure a multitude of answers could be proposed in an attempt to solve this dilemma, I can come up with two answers that are very likely to arise. For the first answer to this question, a person might respond, "Well he's God, and he can do whatever he wants, and if he doesn't want to warn them about hell, then he doesn't have to." But if someone is willing to give a response like this, then he or she should not get angry if a radical Muslim says, "Well he's Allah, and he can do whatever he wants, and if he wants to command his followers to carry out suicide bombings on innocent women and children, then he can do what he damn well pleases." For anyone who would give such a response, it would be helpful to follow the advice of a quote I once heard that said, "Don't make a statement that makes God out to be less compassionate that your average mortal human being."

The second response may possibly carry a little more validity. In the second response, a person defending the teaching of hell might say, "Well maybe the early books of the Bible do not specifically warn its readers about eternal punishment in hell, but it did warn them that God would punish them if they sinned against him." And of course there is no doubt that this is true. There are hundreds of threats in the first five books of the Bible that God would punish people for sinning against him. There were a multitude of cases where God threatened the people of Israel with death if they broke his commands. One man was stoned to death for simply picking up sticks on the Sabbath, because any form of work was forbidden on the Sabbath (Numbers 15:32-36). And the book of Deuteronomy commands parents to have their child (more like a young adult) stoned to death for being disobedient (Deut. 21:18-21). So there is no question that the Bible warns its earliest readers that they will be punished for sinning against God. But are such warnings sufficient?

I would say that these warnings are not even close to being sufficient. A general warning that God will punish them for sinning against him is not good enough. Here is an illustration to make my point: A dad tells his teenage son that if he gets caught smoking pot that he will be punished. The son tries his best to not get caught, but eventually his dad catches him in the act. So the dad takes a rope and ties up his son's hands and feet and carries him into the basement, where he has a secret torture chamber set up. The dad keeps his son locked in the basement and puts him through the most sadistic torture for the rest of his life. Every day the son pleads to his dad to let him out, but the dad replies, "Son I told you I would punish you if you smoked pot." And his son says, "But dad, I knew you said I would be punished for disobeying you, but I wasn't expecting this!" Multiply the horror of this torture by infinity and apply the same logic to the doctrine of hell, and you'll see one of the reasons why I have a serious issue with this awful teaching. Feel free to voice any of your own objections or comments, they will be greatly appreciated.
[LINK SiteName=Mothrust: Movies and Modern Myth Target=_blank]http://aintchristian.blogspot.com.au/[/LINK] Be nice, for everyone that you meet is fighting a harder battle - Anita Roddick
RCI prophesies
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