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Date Posted:30/01/2008 10:10 PMCopy HTML

Lots of debate about this with lots of suppressed women.

Open honest scriptural debate please.
Didaktikon Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #1
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Re:What does "wives submit unto your husbands" (KJV) mean?

Date Posted:30/01/2008 10:34 PMCopy HTML

Lots of debate about this with lots of suppressed women. Open honest scriptural debate please.

Well, for starters we need to bear in mind that Ephesians 5:22 doesn't exist as a proof-text devoid of any and all context! The concept of marital submission is subequent to the broader issue of social submission that was outlined in vv. 17-21, and further, that the theme of submission continues from verse 23 forwards. To summarise, in this paraenetic section of Ephesians Paul was discussing what is technically referred to in NT biblical studies as "haustafeln" ("Household Codes"), which were a frequent topic of discussion in a wide range of first century Greco-Roman writings. These "codes of behaviour" outlined the approved forms of social interraction (and responsibilities) that were held to exist between husbands and wives, parents and children, and masters and slaves. Consequently, key to properly grasping Paul's intent is a solid understanding of the social and cultural imperatives of the time. Context, context, context (...context!).

Blessings,

Ian

P.S. I should have mentioned that it is faulty to simply presume that Paul was discussing the relationship between a Christian husband and a Christian wife. This would be to superimpose a modern "Christian" reading upon an ancient text! The reality is that Paul was likely addressing Christian women who were married to non-Christian husbands, which was something of a "norm" within his churches! In effect, Paul may have been challenging Christian wives to behave in ways fully accepted (and expected) socially, so as to avoid causing social repercussions to the advancement of Christianity in that social context.
email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:What does "wives submit unto your husbands" (KJV) mean?

Date Posted:31/01/2008 11:48 PMCopy HTML

Ian, any particular reading that you would recommend for a 'good' study of the subject.

Thanks Steve.
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Re:What does "wives submit unto your husbands" (KJV) mean?

Date Posted:01/02/2008 12:11 AMCopy HTML

Ian, any particular reading that you would recommend for a 'good' study of the subject.

Hi, Steve.

I suppose there are a few decent works that deal with social interaction in 1st century Greco-Roman society that you could look into; probably the best all-round "background" to the NT that addresses this and a host of other subjects is Everett Ferguson's, Backgrounds of Early Christianity, 3rd ed. published by Eerdmans. Dealing strictly on the subject of marriage and family relations, you might consider Ken Campbell's, Marriage and Family in the Biblical World, published by IVP.

Blessings,

Ian
email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:What does "wives submit unto your husbands" (KJV) mean?

Date Posted:02/02/2008 9:31 AMCopy HTML

I am stealing someone elses thunder here; The thought is on equality. God made woman from a rib (from the side ) of Adam. Why not from some other part of the body like the toe, the femur. etc.?
Metaphorically, representing woman as equal to man.:quizzical: Side by side.
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Re:What does "wives submit unto your husbands" (KJV) mean?

Date Posted:03/02/2008 2:37 PMCopy HTML

I am stealing someone elses thunder here; The thought is on equality. God made woman from a rib (from the side ) of Adam. Why not from some other part of the body like the toe, the femur. etc.?
Metaphorically, representing woman as equal to man.:quizzical: Side by side.

 I like it.  Sounds sensible to me.

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Re:What does "wives submit unto your husbands" (KJV) mean?

Date Posted:03/02/2008 3:20 PMCopy HTML

One senior RF pastor holds the following very definite and often quoted views on headship/submission:-

"When a couple come to me to ask permission to keep company I only see one head - the male;  the female is headless"

Sounds like an old RCI aphorism carried over into RF.  Anyone encountered similar attitudes?


The Oversighted Observer 
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Re:What does "wives submit unto your husbands" (KJV) mean?

Date Posted:04/02/2008 11:02 AMCopy HTML

One senior RF pastor holds the following very definite and often quoted views on headship/submission:-
"When a couple come to me to ask permission to keep company I only see one head - the male;  the female is headless" Sounds like an old RCI aphorism carried over into RF.  Anyone encountered similar attitude?
____________________________________________________________________________________
Unfortunately it's always been that way in RF/RC and it always will. There is no recognition or celebration of 'woman' at all - she's only any good for poppin' out the kids, washing the dishes and making the endless suppers!!

One of the last talks I heard was from an area leader talking about the woman's role in the house and how fulfilled she should be having a family to look after and shouldn't need anything else. I felt rather insulted as I had working full time (since my last child started school) for the last 18 years AND raised a family AND always had meals ready AND cleaned the house AND made the endless suppers AND did the dishes AND got to all the meetings/outreaches etc etc etc.  He should have kept the talk for the stay-at-home Mums instead of to the whole meeting as (maybe not intentionally but who knows?) many women felt they were under condemnation after hearing this talk. (I just felt sorry that this man couldn't see the value of women)

The church I now attend celebrates and gives honour to women (as well as to men) and it was only after attending a women's brunch and hearing a WOMAN give an awesome talk about relationships (as women can do so well) that I realised how much I had missed out on in my RF days.

We were created both male and female to be in relationship not only with each other but most importantly with God. I don't believe He sees our gender when He calls us to be relationship with Him but He does expect us to honour each other as husband and wife. If my husband & I have an issue with anything we will discuss it and come up with a solution together (often through prayer).  I did not really understand about honouring my husband in my RF days but have a much better understanding of it now. I recognise & honour the strengths that God has given him and he acknowledges the strengths that God has given me and we are able to have an awesome relationship because together we worship the same God. A God of love, of mercy, of grace and a God who loves each and every one of us whether male or female.

Urchin
Your unfailing love, O Lord, is as vast as the heavens; your faithfulness reaches beyond the clouds. Your righteousness is like the mighty mountains, your justice like the ocean depths.
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Re:What does "wives submit unto your husbands" (KJV) mean?

Date Posted:04/02/2008 9:33 PMCopy HTML

Hi Urchin dont forget looking after the kids in the revers as well as pouring communion.

Quite sickening really how they treat women
earth5
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Re:What does "wives submit unto your husbands" (KJV) mean?

Date Posted:08/01/2009 12:51 PMCopy HTML

Reply to is_Aimoo_Guest (02/02/2008 03:31:31)

I am stealing someone elses thunder here; The thought is on equality. God made woman from a rib (from the side ) of Adam. Why not from some other part of the body like the toe, the femur. etc.?
Metaphorically, representing woman as equal to man.:quizzical: Side by side.


The above sounds more like you are reading into the text. Of course women are equal to men in our phsyical nature, albeit very different.

Jesus is equal to God (Father) because He is the only begotten Son of God, ie He has the diety, but the Father has the greater role.

Men and women have the same human 'construction/dna types' etc and are therefore equal, but men have the head role as clearly stated in the scriptures!

As for things being 'unequal in meetings', at least women did not have the pressure to wear that ridiculous shirt and tie outfit to a christian meeting and you were able to wear any slouching stuff you wanted.

As for other things, as a male it was maybe a little annoying always being used to hand out the communion or having to do so many 'male' activities.

Actually, the scriptures do tell us to serve others and I suppose it is wrong to bemoan those duties. Likewise it is wrong for women also to highlight the very few duties that they had to do!.

In other words, if you are going to moan, then at least be equal in your analysis. Plenty of men did not want all the duties given to them and I am quite confident that many women who bemoan not being 'used' would soon find all the duties to be irritating regardless of the fact the scriptures tell us to serve each other.


Final Note

females developing a skillful, crafty and deceptive art, whereby their husbands think they have the headship/submission under control, but in fact it could actually be the reverse.

Yes, plenty of them around and plenty of feeble men allowing it.

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Re:What does "wives submit unto your husbands" (KJV) mean?

Date Posted:10/01/2009 11:54 AMCopy HTML

Well women in the church were still expected to research doctrine and aggressively evangelise on a daily basis.  This included the stress of being a constant 'testimony' for RF and defending their ridiculous policies to the whosoever, going on follow-ups, answering all kinds of inquiries -generally expecting to be able to teach fellow members and people they meet in the world.  Basicly the same thing as the menfolk except they had the humiliation of being told they were inexplicably unfit to lead in a prayer or compare a series of amateur dramatic presentations or conduct a tremendously complicated work like 'Come and Let Us Go'.

Sure full credit to the brave, strong menfolk who dutifully and stoically bore the burden of the wine trays knowing how they would probably break the feeble frame of the dear women in the church.

The wives of Pastors would probably feel relieved to know they have to bear a lot of the pressure and responsibility of being the chief's spouse while having 0% of any decision making capability or perks of being in the boys club behind closed doors.

Oh how consistent things were.  For instance women could not 'teach' by blessing a supper if there were any qualified men present ... but they could 'teach' by offering spiritual king james gifts or elaborate on their testimony of what the glorious RF did in their lives.

And here I sit so patiently waiting to find out what price / I have to pay to get out of going through all these things twice
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Re:What does "wives submit unto your husbands" (KJV) mean?

Date Posted:10/01/2009 1:59 PMCopy HTML

Your comments do have quite a sour tone to them and you display your own mockery of the male, which doesn't make your position any more justified.

It was never a man vs woman thing in the TRF meetings I saw. I never witnessed this at all. If you must know, I washed up the dishes plenty of times after the mid-meeting break. It was never solely a female thing.

If anything, at camps, women used their 'oh I'm weaker' status to get the younger guys to take their suitcases and belongings to their room because 'we were strong lads'. it works both ways and I think your analysis is grossly unfair and way off the mark.

If you are going to moan about what things women were not allowed to do by the pastors, then why not list all the things that the men had to do?

Always putting up the baptism tank which took about 20 mins due to the flimsy nature of the tub/filling up etc. Yes, this meant having to arrive at the meeting even earlier to make sure you had it ready for the meeting. Lucky women. I guess your frame is not too 'feeble' as you say, to put this together, yet I heard of no moaning in this regard.

Always having to hand out the communion / tithe bags. Yes, just sit there and do nothing! Cosy!

Always being used for the prayers. (I know plenty of girls that said they are so happy they don't do them!) It was seldom you could speak openly to God in the meeting prayer anyway. All prayers were analysed and pretty much the same! Stray from that theme and open yourself up to the Creator and whoooosh!

We were always the ones used for carrying materials into the hall, women never had to do this.

Many other things and smaller details, but the point being made is that the feeling is mutual and the full truth of the issue is not in the aesthetics, but in a deeper theme.

The battle was never men vs women in TRF. It was a battle between the 'council of pastors' + wannabees vs those who believed the Bible rather than their traditions and formalities.

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Re:What does "wives submit unto your husbands" (KJV) mean?

Date Posted:10/01/2009 4:36 PMCopy HTML

Yea well I speak as one who did all these male things.  It was sometimes a pickle to have to flap around setting up the mics and tank and all that although the women would be there too doing stuff.  Some of the male things, I have to be honest, could sometimes be a bit of an ego-trip occassionally.  I did like doing talks, I enjoyed participating in relatively simple things like walking down a line and giving people plastic beakers, I enjoyed pressing buttons on a computer that would flash up the next chorus on the projector.  I don't see why these should be exclusively male things.  It seemed pretty arbitrary considering that the things women DID do for RF ie. spiritual gifts, witnessing, handling visitors etc. were all the tough things and not necessarily the most rewarding things.  And yes I did washing up and looking after creche too.
And here I sit so patiently waiting to find out what price / I have to pay to get out of going through all these things twice
RCI prophesies
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