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Date Posted:14/11/2010 10:20 PMCopy HTML

Ian, Revivalist dogma make claims the Pope as being 'The Man of Sin' (Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 2 Thess 2:3 KJV etc). I concluded that through my studies, this hardly seems correct.  However, I have discovered the few reformed churches I have visited say their declaration of faith is the Westminster Confession of Faith (1647).In chapter XXV, ‘Of The Church’, section V1 of that confession, we read;      There is no other head of the Church but the Lord Jesus Christ.[13] Nor can the Pope of Rome, in any sense, be head thereof; but is that Antichrist, that man of sin, and son of perdition, that exalts himself, in the Church, against Christ and all that is called God.[14]Should not this be pointed out to and be addressed and if so who can?Ralph
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Re:Westminister Confession and 'Man of Sin'

Date Posted:14/11/2010 11:02 PMCopy HTML

Ralph,

The framers of the Westminster Confession of Faith were men of their time: to them the abuses of the RCC of their day (and often of the pope, personally) rung true to those mentioned in Scripture concerning the antichrist (Luther believed similarly, so too did Calvin). In this the framers were representative of the sorts of apoclayptic fervour that have broken out, from time-to-time, throughout the span of Christian history. However, unlike what passes today, the Roman Church then was often a corrupt and 'godless' place. Consequently, Revivalists have absolutely no warrant to be viewing the Roman Church through a 17th century lens! That is, not unless they're also prepared to own and defend the 'solas' of the Reformation as understood and taught by the magisterial Reformers!

As with all confessional documents, from all periods of history, the Westminster Confession is representative of the theological struggles that took place at the time: in this instance that time being the post Jacobean England of 1646! The Confession isn't Scripture, Ralph; if you're worried that this aspect of the Confession renders doubtful Reformed theology in toto, then I'd suggest that you're 'holding on waaay too tightly'.

Blessings,

Ian
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Re:Westminister Confession and 'Man of Sin'

Date Posted:16/11/2010 10:23 AMCopy HTML

Ian, et al

 

Another point I found interesting is some reformed churches still forbid the playing of musical instruments in their worship services.(Though it is not specifically mentioned in the Westminster Confession) Psalms are sung without music accompaniment.

 

Many early Calvinists also eschewed musical instruments and advocated exclusive psalmody in worship and this practice typified Presbyterian worship and the worship of other Reformed churches for some time (From Wikipedia, ‘Calvinism’).

 

I read that worship is regulated by God and because of the change from OT to the New Testament   that was obtained in Christ, is that only those elements that are instituted or appointed by command or example in the New Testament are permissible in worship. Based on this some churches keep musical instruments solely because the Bible is silent on the given matter.

 

The first reformed church I attended never had any musical instruments, but the singing was so harmonious I didn’t wake up they hadn’t any until the second hymn was almost finished. I still think it is better with music though.

 

Do these Reformed Churches have a valid point in retaining this practice according to scripture or is it another “peripheral” tradition that bridged across from earlier times and is not relevant today?

 

Ralph H

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Re:Westminister Confession and 'Man of Sin'

Date Posted:16/11/2010 10:31 AMCopy HTML

Based on this some churches keep musical instruments solely because the Bible is silent on the given matter.

 

I should have wrote; “Based on this, some churches do not keep musical instruments solely because the Bible is silent on the given matter.”

 

RH

 

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Re:Westminister Confession and 'Man of Sin'

Date Posted:16/11/2010 10:38 AMCopy HTML

Reply to Guest

Based on this some churches keep musical instruments solely because the Bible is silent on the given matter.

 

I should have wrote; “Based on this, some churches do not keep musical instruments solely because the Bible is silent on the given matter.”

 

RH

 


All the New Testament really indicates that worship be in Spirit and in truth.. However there is mention by David in the Psalms that exhorts the use of instruments.

Well I do have a shofur that I play, I mean .. blow sometimes... and I am a former professional drummer

but I wonder if Ian has a singing voice ???

Meta
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Re:Westminister Confession and 'Man of Sin'

Date Posted:16/11/2010 11:23 AMCopy HTML

Reply to Guest

Based on this some churches keep musical instruments solely because the Bible is silent on the given matter.

 

I should have wrote; “Based on this, some churches do not keep musical instruments solely because the Bible is silent on the given matter.”

 

RH

 


By the way Ralphie, the Greek for 'worship' is 'proskuneo" and it is a compound word. "Pros" basically means "towards" and "Kuneo" is the verb "to kiss".... source BDAG..

Meta
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Re:Westminister Confession and 'Man of Sin'

Date Posted:16/11/2010 10:29 PMCopy HTML

Good morning, Ralph.

First, why the sudden interest in Reformed practices? Another point I found interesting is some reformed churches still forbid the playing of musical instruments in their worship services.(Though it is not specifically mentioned in the Westminster Confession) Psalms are sung without music accompaniment. The practice of eschewing musical instruments whilst limiting 'worship' to the a capella singing of psalms, is largely restricted to certain elements of Presbyterianism in Scotland; it isn't widespread, nor is it a Reformed tennet. And try to remember, 'Reformed' = Presbyterian, Congregationalist, Anglican and (some) Baptist, just to name a few denominations.

Do these Reformed Churches have a valid point in retaining this practice according to scripture or is it another “peripheral” tradition that bridged across from earlier times and is not relevant today? I remember telling you some years ago, not to confuse cultural practices with scriptural ones. What do you reckon the basis of this practice is?

Blessings,

Ian
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Re:Westminister Confession and 'Man of Sin'

Date Posted:16/11/2010 11:38 PMCopy HTML

Good morning Ian,

 

First, why the sudden interest in Reformed practices?

No particular reason, just for my education and clearing a few points up after one has had discussions with fellow reformers. Thought also might be a change from usual ramblings on here, bearing in mind some will bring up anything to debunk Christianity.

 

The practice of eschewing musical instruments whilst limiting 'worship' to the capella singing of psalms, is largely restricted to certain elements of Presbyterianism in Scotland; it isn't widespread, nor is it a Reformed tennet. And try to remember, 'Reformed' = Presbyterian, Congregationalist, Anglican and (some) Baptist, just to name a few denominations. Yep, so I have been reading.

 

I remember telling you some years ago, not to confuse cultural practices with scriptural ones. I always try to watch and bear this in mind.

 

What do you reckon the basis of this practice is?

That is what I was seeking an answer to; is it cultural or, “scriptural” based solely on the bible being silent on the matter. I guess in this case works hand in hand.

 

Many thanks

 

Ralph.

 

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Re:Westminister Confession and 'Man of Sin'

Date Posted:17/11/2010 12:01 AMCopy HTML

Ralph,

Common sense would suggest that if Scripture is silent on a matter, then any issue pertaining to such a matter can't really be referred to as being 'scriptural', can it?

Blessings,

Ian
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Re:Westminister Confession and 'Man of Sin'

Date Posted:17/11/2010 1:09 AMCopy HTML

Ian,

 

TOUCHÉ   :glad:

      

Ralph

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Re:Westminister Confession and 'Man of Sin'

Date Posted:17/11/2010 7:56 AMCopy HTML

Reply to Didaktikon

Ralph,

Common sense would suggest that if Scripture is silent on a matter, then any issue pertaining to such a matter can't really be referred to as being 'scriptural', can it?

Blessings,

Ian


Nice,  break out the joints and ekkies :)
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Re:Westminister Confession and 'Man of Sin'

Date Posted:17/11/2010 12:05 PMCopy HTML

Guest,

Common sense would suggest that if Scripture is silent on a matter, then any issue pertaining to such a matter can't really be referred to as being 'scriptural', can it?

Nice,  break out the joints and ekkies :) This comment goes a long way towards explaining how you became a Revivalist.

Goose,

Ian
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Re:Westminister Confession and 'Man of Sin'

Date Posted:21/11/2010 11:38 PMCopy HTML

Reply to Didaktikon

Guest,

Common sense would suggest that if Scripture is silent on a matter, then any issue pertaining to such a matter can't really be referred to as being 'scriptural', can it?

Nice,  break out the joints and ekkies :) This comment goes a long way towards explaining how you became a Revivalist.

Goose,

Ian

Actually I partake in neither, it was a joke, not that I believe you have a sense of humour. I became a revivalist because I loved god and wanted to please him. I was already extremely traumatised and was preyed upon by a cult. I spent my whole time in fellowship arguing with them for being assholes. Absolute power corrupts absolutely, even when one claims to have the spirit of christ regardless of denomination. That will always be life's greatest disappointment for me.
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