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cultevasion
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Date Posted:17/06/2009 4:01 AMCopy HTML

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Dear ACL Supporter

When surveys designed by the people paying for them to be conducted ask questions that work to influence the outcome, “framing bias” is the term used.

The report in today’s Melbourne Herald Sun tells us that a survey conducted for and paid for by a homosexual activist group gave a not unsurprising result.

Can we encourage you to vote NO on this voteline? Click here to vote. These polls generally close at midnight for reporting in the paper the next morning.

Let’s make our voices heard in support of marriage between a man and a woman.

Thanks for taking action.

God bless

Jim Wallace AM
Managing Director

 

cultivation leads to cultevasion -
don"t reap what they sow!
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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:19/06/2009 6:20 AMCopy HTML

In time gay everything will be accepted by society whether you and god like it or not.

Heaven help us all.

Remember what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah?

The men of the city didn't want the female virgins, they wanted the men.

Backs to the wall guys that are straight.
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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:19/06/2009 8:41 AMCopy HTML

Brolga

I'm not saying that the bible doesn't reference homosexuality as being wrong, although there are probably fewer scriptures than you'd be happy with, but the that passage you are using as a trump card isn't really an 'ideal' text to guide your holier than thou sexual ethics. It is more about ancient laws of hospitality rather than homosexuality. And even the latter idea would refer to the sin of homosexual rape rather than consensual relations between men. You're saying that pretty much 'all' of the men in that city were gay men? You're assuming that the word 'know' means to 'rape'?

"Heaven help us all"

It's okay Brolga, it seems homosexuality IS much more accepted by society lately, and I don't think you should worry too much about keeping your back to the wall. Being a homosexual does not make one a rapist... there's more than enough for women to worry about from heterosexual rapists that you getting molested on the way back from the cornershop.
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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:19/06/2009 10:58 AMCopy HTML

Hi Moth,

 

What I am saying is that the narrative of Sodom and Gomorrah clearly represents just how far a society can go if not controlled by the moral ethics that come from God.

I see through the scriptures always the end result of nations and people bring upon themselves destruction when they turn away from the right and basic laws that God had set down to abide by, and it IS from God whom the laws originated.

I could have quoted Noah and the flood, the fall of Rome, and Jerusalem or more, but the issue is on gay (poof) marriages at moment and S & G is good example how far and what it can lead into.

Yes, I agree that was the ancient laws of hospitality at that time, It seems like a cop out, in my view, to say such things to brush aside what really is the message, but the bible narrative is not centered on that alone but what God intended us to know, how wicked and how low humanity can reach. Didn’t Abraham have a convo with God about how many righteous in the city? Why did God end up destroying them? Why did God destroy what he had created (flood), and the other cities and nations?  Each and every time it was because they had turned their backs on their Creator.

 

As for being “holier than thou”; I have never claimed that I am or felt I’m better than anyone else. I just believe that through scripture also, that if we do the right thing accordingly, society functions the way God intended from the beginning and forever and I would rather be a part of that than sink so low into a hell hole of captivity to our sensual desires and lusts. At the end, God is my judge.

As far as society goes, I feel I don’t owe society anything, what has it done for me? But that is another story.

 

brolga

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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:19/06/2009 11:35 AMCopy HTML

What I am saying is that the narrative of Sodom and Gomorrah clearly represents just how far a society can go if not controlled by the moral ethics that come from God.


Clearly represents? No. You used Sodom and Gomorrah specifically (and twice thus far), and equated it with homosexuality as many people mistakenly do. I called you on it. The truth is that god seems to have destroyed it for ignoring him and being generally naughty. He seems very good at destroying various civilisations when they don't fall in line. Luckily the New Testament God isn't so nasty. There have been many atrocious peoples in the last 2000 years and nary an ethnic cleansing. I think it's great of god to get that habit under control.


I see through the scriptures always the end result of nations and people bring upon themselves destruction when they turn away from the right and basic laws that God had set down to abide by, and it IS from God whom the laws originated.


Always? Nope. Lots of bible story nations getting smitten and bitten, but various nations nowadays don't frame the Bible laws in their halls and are still standing. The laws originated from god? If you believe so, then for you they do.


I could have quoted Noah and the flood, the fall of Rome, and Jerusalem or more, but the issue is on gay (poof) marriages at moment and S & G is good example how far and what it can lead into.


Again, you've read too much into the text I think. I could be wrong. Tell me, where does is say that homosexuality was rife? Chapter and verse please. I got some spare time atm.


Why did God end up destroying them? Why did God destroy what he had created (flood), and the other cities and nations?  Each and every time it was because they had turned their backs on their Creator.


Thou shalt not kill? Do as he says, not as he does.

 

As for being “holier than thou”; I have never claimed that I am or felt I’m better than anyone else. 


Apologies... it must've just read that way to me :S

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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:19/06/2009 12:55 PMCopy HTML

Mothy,

Again, you've read too much into the text I think. I could be wrong. Tell me, where does is say that homosexuality was rife? Chapter and verse please. I got some spare time atm.

 

It doesn’t take much reading for one to get the picture of homosexuality of the Sodomites.

 

Although there are the two cities mentioned in the bible, Sodom of the two, is more significant.

Sodom is remembered as such an excessively evil city that the wrath of God came upon it. Genesis reflects both sexual perversity and gross inhospitality (19: 1-11) at Sodom.[1]

v4, “But before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both young and old, all the people to the last man, surrounded the house.  v5 And they called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you? Bring them out so that we may know them.” ………………..

 

How do these texts make you think I’m reading too much into it?

 

brolga

[1] Eerdman's Dictionary of the Bible

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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:19/06/2009 1:34 PMCopy HTML

 Why has the wrath of God not fallen on anyone, (individually or collectively) in recent history then?  I know a few deserving folk.  What about say San Francisco or maybe Sydney?  He'd get rid of a good number of those gays there.  He's so big and clever, he could even cleanse the gays selectively from among us.

Strange.... he was so busy and active back then.  Hardly heard a peep from him last...... well actually.... as long as any of us can remember!
"for there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so" Shakespeare (Hamlet, Act 2, Scene 2)
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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:19/06/2009 2:00 PMCopy HTML

Dog,

What happened to the wrath of God?

Seems like Jesus had/has something to do with it.

Even though we might think that God is silent, I'm sure there will come the time when all "hell" will break forth again, or maybe it has already begun.

brolga

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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:19/06/2009 3:29 PMCopy HTML

Brolga!  I find your statement "As far as society goes, I feel I don’t owe society anything, what has it done for me?" more than a little distasteful.  Where's your sense of community?  You and I ARE part of this society, and as much as we participate in it, we have (I believe) an ethical duty to give and enrich it by our presence.  Society is (after all) the sum of the values that each and every one of us hold, and the way in which we participate and contribute to it.  What has society done for you?  I'd suggest much more than you may be aware.

You do seem to have a flair for dropping the odd 'clanger' from time to time.  I guess you'll be forgiven for that tho!



Dog.
"for there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so" Shakespeare (Hamlet, Act 2, Scene 2)
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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:19/06/2009 4:46 PMCopy HTML

Good morning, Dog.

You've asked what God requires; I assume you still have a Bible gathering dust somewhere in your house, so why don't you crack it open as the answers are right to hand.

So god would have it that;

a)  A gay person must live all their years without having sex (even though they did not 'choose' to be gay)?

'Yes'. But who says that choice isn't an issue to being gay,

many gay folk do! There are countless cases of gay folk who have struggled desperately to try to deny their orientation, but there reality is, they ARE GAY!

or to engaging in homosexual sex? Is paedophilia also not a choice? Or beastiality? Or necrophilia? Do people not choose to engage in these sorts of behaviours? Sexual activity, any sexual activity, remains a matter of choice. One chooses to engage or to not engage.

Sure.  Of course choice is common to us all.

Perhaps you might like to consider the following anecdote: one of my gay friends confided in me that he had tried all forms of heterosexual sex over the years, and sex had become 'boring' to him, it no longer gave him a "buzz". As he saw things the two options left open to him were between homosexual sex or bestiality. He chose the former.

Ian, I don't doubt your friends' story.  I'm sure there are many folk such as this, that seek to fulfill their life with pleasures, one way or another.  As I see it, society is plagued by a great sickness, spiritually.  Folk are often lost in pursuits that are not satisfying, driven by consumerism, and a kind of 'gluttony'.  They are mostly blind to deeper, mindful living, but propelled to try and fill their life with material vanities and other things that just don't make them good examples of humanity.  Being 'bored' by natural, normal things is a disease of sorts. Somehow, they have strayed far from the potential within them.  I'm not sure how it all came to this, but it is not restricted to sexual behaviour.  This is but one symptom of a greater problem.  Mankind sure knows how to turn life to crap in many ways!

Similarly, I choose to be faithful to my wife, as I refuse to consider myself a 'victim' to my urges and desires. Are you suggesting, on the other hand, that gay people are not as capable of personal constraint?

And you are to be commended for that Ian. It indicates a strength of character to maintain one's principles as you describe of yourself. The thing is, many folk don't have such strengths.  I think it's unfortunate, but it can be uncharitable to judge those who lack the gumption that others have. Gays are no different to others in any respect.  Some have great constraint where its required, and others don't.

Of course though.... it may be easy for one who has a lovely partner & family to boast of their fidelity within their marriage, and then postulate how a gay man should exercise constraint alone!

b) A person who (perhaps in their youth) marries a person who is violently abusive cannot divorce this person, and if they actually seperate, they must remain abstinate for the rest of their years (coz Jesus forbids divorce, & consequencially re-marriage)?

'No', and we've addressed this subject elsewhere on the forum, in some detail. A person who is married to a violent or abusive partner can divorce, and can remarry.

Ian, you stated unequivocably, "Jesus forbade divorce".

c) Evereyone must abstain from sex unless they have the fortune to find & marry a suitable partner.

'Yes', such is very clearly the biblical position (we are discussing what God requires, after all).

d) And masturbation is also a naughty pastime, (it IS sex outside of marriage after all)!

Masturbation, as a 'pasttime', isn't mentioned in Scripture (Onan's sin was to disobey God by the way). Choosing to feed one's lust through pornography; however, is sinful and so should be avoided (if this is what leads to your proffered 'pasttime').

Despite the fact that humans are born with an instinctual and natural desire to be close & intimate with others?

So you believe that sex qualifies as the primary or highest form of intimacy than a human can achieve, do you? Would you then judge people who choose (for whatever reason) to remain celibate as being incapable of intimacy? Would you question their humanity as a consequence of their choice?

You cheapen your argument with this offering Ian!  Of course, intimacy takes many forms (including sex) and (as much as celibacy is a choice) the desire for sexual satisfaction is as natural and valid as any of the other instincts we share to be connected with others. What can be a shame, is when folk are taught to feel shame or guilt for these natural desires because of religious b/s, and can lead to all sorts of disturbing outcomes.  Repression of sexual expression can really screw some people up!

That suggests to be a cruel and hienous creator, who takes pleasure in tormenting his creation.  Oh and greater joy for this monster..... if they fail to live up to these preposterous standards, and end up being tormented forever!

Ha, ha. Your standard refrain, Dog, but a completely illogical conclusion to reach from the evidence that's under discussion.

Oh that's right.  You are the Vulcan, and logic belongs to you alone!

Blessings,

Ian

Dog
"for there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so" Shakespeare (Hamlet, Act 2, Scene 2)
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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:19/06/2009 10:57 PMCopy HTML

Dog,

 

What a fairy land you must live in. Sense of community? There are very few people in society today that you could say fit this bill. Who wants to be a part of a community that lacks empathy and is all about Me, Me, Me attitude. We blame politicians for the increasing crime rates, no justice in our law courts, even the economy which is a result of selfishness and greed. Now it is the justifying of immoral attitudes. Where is the concern for our kids future? Why is there an increase in adolescent suicide? Society is to blame. Take away the set values God has laid down for society’s needs and these are some of the results. This is exactly what is happening. ( Society is (after all) the sum of the values that each and every one of us hold, and the way in which we participate and contribute to it.)

 

Not withstanding all that, all my life I have tried to put back into society to my own (and my family’s) detriment. Even from a child I would go without and put others first before myself.

 

Oh! Its ok when you’re doing good things for others, but when the chips are down you tend to get “dunged” on by those same people you have helped. (story of my life).

 

But above all that, I find solace in my belief and continue to try to live up to Christian values regardless of what society comes to. And we all know where society is heading.

 

brolga

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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:20/06/2009 1:36 AMCopy HTML

 v4, “But before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both young and old, all the people to the last man, surrounded the house.  v5 And they called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you? Bring them out so that we may know them.”

Is this the only scripture you're using to say that ALL the evil fairies in town wanted to gang-rape the visitors? You're hanging all that on the English word 'know'?

Homosexuality or rape or any sort of sexual sin is NOT mentioned here at all... this is called proof-texting! Have you heard of that concept..? and then that's after the mistake of not understanding context context context. Study up and get back to me.
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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:20/06/2009 1:41 AMCopy HTML

How very unfortunate for you Brolga.  I feel sorry for you to have such an outlook.

You hold to a hope of salvation in the future, whilst not seeing the 'Kingdom' that is right here, right now.  Yes society is problematic.  But its all we have and there IS great beauty there, everywhere!  Unless you see yourself as part of this, you are in a sorry state, really. It is important to embrace not only the good, but the bad and the ugly and accept that you are a part of all this, and how you act and interract is your choice. 

Some scriptures come to mind...

"be not weary in well doing"  You describe yourself as one who has been there and done that, been crapped on, so bugger it!

"Behold the Kingdom is at hand" If you can't find God right here in front of you in what you see (& how you see) you aint gonna find him in some future place or afterlife. 

Brolga, you really are a worry!

Dog.


"for there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so" Shakespeare (Hamlet, Act 2, Scene 2)
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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:20/06/2009 1:55 AMCopy HTML

Reply to Brolgalicious


What a fairy land you must live in. Sense of community? There are very few people in society today that you could say fit this bill. 


Few? You really need to get out more and meet some people Brolgs. You don't seem to be mixing in with the right crowd. We've had monumental disasters in Australia this year and we've seen all sorts of communities support each other selflessly. This statement of yours is a huge birded finger in the air to the MANY decent people who have a sense of community... of all beliefs!


No justice in our law courts? 


Give the system some credit. To say there is NO justice derides all the good and fair justice that is deliberated on and studied by a lot of dedicated people. It's not perfect, but it's the best we can do with what we've got. I'm sure there are many striving to make it better, but it's better than nothing. 


even the economy which is a result of selfishness and greed. Now it is the justifying of immoral attitudes. Where is the concern for our kids future? Why is there an increase in adolescent suicide? Society is to blame. Take away the set values God has laid down for society’s needs and these are some of the results. This is exactly what is happening. ( Society is (after all) the sum of the values that each and every one of us hold, and the way in which we participate and contribute to it.)


You're sounding more like a zealous American bible-thumping Fundamentalist streetside picketer every day Brolgadier... and losing a grip on reality more and more with it. Maybe if we had more optimistic people in society and less doomsdayers...

 

Not withstanding all that, all my life I have tried to put back into society to my own (and my family’s) detriment. Even from a child I would go without and put others first before myself.

 

Well, there's a redeeming feature! Good for you.


Oh! Its ok when you’re doing good things for others, but when the chips are down you tend to get “dunged” on by those same people you have helped. (story of my life).


That's sad for you, very sad and unfortunate, but it doesn't mean it's always like that for the other 20 million inhabitants of our big brown land. Many people are selfish and there's always a nasty so-and-so in every group, but don't lose perspective, and you shouldn't lose hope in people. Most of the people I hang with are extraordinary people whom I am in awe of. 

 

But above all that, I find solace in my belief and continue to try to live up to Christian values regardless of what society comes to. And we all know where  society is heading.


No we don't all know where it's heading... the future is not pre-determined... unless you're some sort of non-sensical bible prophesying futurist.

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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:20/06/2009 2:23 AMCopy HTML

I can see where Brolga is coming from. Lucky for me when they were handing out actual cynicism I was in the ladies. Too much hanging with revival ppl can sure stuff up your trust in others.

As for me, I am giver, it is how I was created. For years I just gave and gave and forgot about myself. When I was a burned out wreck my first inclination was to blame those I had helped who had not appreciated me or helped me back. After the dust had settled I realised that I was the one who chose to be giving, and I made that decision at the age of 9, when I first encountered God, and it had NOTHING to do with the revs at all. I wanted to be kind and selfless like Jesus, and I was, and it almost destroyed me. I am NOT Jesus, and as we know life decisions made from a childish viewpoint don't always hold up that well in adult life. After a massive breakdown I had to be told by mental health professionals that my level of honesty is unhealthy in this society and it was causing me all manner of difficulties. And they were right. I had to take a long hard look at who I was, how I had gotten that way, and how I was going to negotiate a society I had never understood.

Like Brolga I think human nature sucks. I don't seem to have much of one, probably due to finding God at such a young age. Pleasing God became part of my personality to the point where I ended up, with revival help like a rat in one of those things that go round and round and I made myself crazy trying to be perfect.

Revival involvement does its best to make members phobic about anyone not "in the Lord". Worked a treat on me, but now I am learning that other people are just other people. There is good and bad in all of us, whether out bum hits a church seat on a Sunday or not. Looking back now some of the people I was in fellowship with were some of the nastiest, shallowest, egotistical units I have ever had to deal with. Also 10 years in another church put me in touch with more of those.

Strangely I have met many more people outside churches who have nurtured my soul, cared for me in a non judgemental way than pretty well any I ever met in church. Church people, and by that I mean pentecostal ones seem to live in this puppy dogs and rainbows fantasy that I just cannot get my head around. I have discovered much about myself in my journey since leaving church altogether. I am not a magical thinker, almost a necessity for a serious chirstian of any kind. I am a gifted person, which means I see life differently from the average person. I always thought I was just weird. Growing up in the housing commission you are lucky to eat daily and not get the crap bashed out of you much less have anyone recognise any gifts or talents you may have.

Don't lose faith in people Brolga, even though you probably have a thousand reasons to do so. Just keep being who you are, but don't let the world turn you into them by building up levels of hardness to deal with other people's levels of hardness. Just learn how to shield yourself better. Just don't let anything or anyone rob you of your essential "You". There will always be those who do not care about the state of their heart or their soul, there is not much that can be done about that.

I don't need to live up to "christian values". I have internal values that are written on my heart and I don't need a book of rules or a church to tell me how to be. I don't find solace in anything, things just are what they are and I cannot change them, even though I want to change the world every day. I have made my peace with it, I hope you can too.



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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:20/06/2009 4:43 AMCopy HTML

Moth 64#

Paul in Romans1:18 thru to v32.

 

How much more clearer when Paul expands on the Sodom story.

 

Sure they committed other evil acts apart from “sodomy” but it is clear the meaning of “we want to know them” they where “poofs” as well.

A part of the whole evil package that brings judgment from God to those that continue to practice such things.

Remember, my intention is to show that God destroyed them because of the evil. and will be the same at the end.



But above all that, I find solace in my belief and continue to try to live up to Christian values regardless of what society comes to. And we all know where  society is heading.

Until somebody comes up with something better, I stick to this presumption. It works for me.

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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:20/06/2009 6:24 AMCopy HTML

Moth 64#

Paul in Romans1:18 thru to v32. How much more clearer when Paul expands on the Sodom story.


I'm sorry... I'm reading those verses now, but can't see any specific references to Sodom and Gomorrah. More proof-texting? I know how much you dislike it when Revivalists do this. 

 

Sure they committed other evil acts apart from “sodomy” but it is clear the meaning of “we want to know them” they where “poofs” as well.


No actually, it's not clear. I think you may have an overly dirty mind... out of the 943 times the word 'yadha' (to know) is used 933 of them simply mean to be acquainted with, and the other ten times refer to heterosexual intercourse. So waddaya know eh? You're reading 'into' the text something that you want to be there. :P


Remember, my intention is to show that  God  destroyed them because of the evil. and will be the same at the end.


I thought you said "Jesus had something to do with it", in regard to God not popping up and obliterating civilisation again... seems like he can't break the mass murdering habit. And yes, I'm stirring you, but you can take it, eh?


But above all that, I find solace in my belief and continue to try to live up to Christian values regardless of what society comes to. And we all know where  society is heading. Until somebody comes up with something better, I stick to this presumption. It works for me.


Well, I'm not sure it is working for you. You seem to have a chip on your shoulder that extends to multiple communities of people who, quite actually, aren't all bad... 'poofs' and heteros alike. 

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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:20/06/2009 6:52 AMCopy HTML

Come on Mothy, stop playing games.

You know "Yada' expresses a wide range of meanings. What I see in Genesis we may know then that word can mean sexual relation. Vis;  "That Yada includes a sense of relationship is evident, for the verb expresses sexual intimacy within a marriage covenant Adam lay with [lit., knew] his wife Eve and she became pregnant"....(Mounce expos. dict.). So it can also refer to the intimacy (sexual relation) the men wanted to have with the messengers.
Perhaps Ian may care to clarify it one way or the other.

I will take this up again when I'm feeling better. This is not a cop out, but I am full of flue at moment and not on the planet.

brolga
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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:20/06/2009 9:17 AMCopy HTML

I'm full of the flue at the moment as well actually.  Doesn't stop me from typing!

Brolga, you wrote "Remember, my intention is to show that  God  destroyed them because of the evil. and will be the same at the end."

Just how do you intend to do that?  Since none of us were there at the reported time, I'd suggest you CANNOT show us the former (as it belongs to the past) and neither can you show us what happens at "the end" as we would seem to be in a continuum.  Brolgs, you really do talk a lot of nonsense at times!

The only thing any of us have is NOW.


Dog.


"for there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so" Shakespeare (Hamlet, Act 2, Scene 2)
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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:20/06/2009 10:39 AMCopy HTML

Brolgs,

I'm sorry to hear that you've got the flu - it might be wise to go to bed instead of posting your thoughts here when you're delerious from a high temperature and other symptoms of flu.  I really don't like the use of the word 'poof' when the correct term is 'homnosexual'. It's like calling someone a 'wog' that is of European descent - just not nice.

You're kinda sounding like you've got a chip on your shoulder or something? Do you think that by doing good for others you should expect or receive special treatment in return? To do good for others without hope of reward is a good thing - do it just cos you can and you will find that the reward is the fact that you feel good about yourself. It doesn't have to be acknowledged by others for you to feel good about yourself. 

I work with a wide variety of people with a wide variety of beliefs, from agnostics to buddhists to aetheists and only a couple of Christians in a workgroup of around 120 people. But we all get on remarkably well and we respect each others right to believe what we choose. I don't dislike people because they believe something different to me - I look for the common ground and build a relationship with them. Not so that I can 'witness' to them but so that I can show them the love and hope that God has placed inside of me. I've spent most of my life around a country community where the majority of people will always lend a hand, help a neighbour or whatever - regardless of whether they are Christians or not. I'd go as far as to say that in society most people are (generally) community minded and care about others - of course there are the exceptions and we've all met them.

I think you're just feeling a bit down at the moment perhaps and not seeing things as clearly as you normally would. I hope you feel better soon.

God bless, Urch

Your unfailing love, O Lord, is as vast as the heavens; your faithfulness reaches beyond the clouds. Your righteousness is like the mighty mountains, your justice like the ocean depths.
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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:20/06/2009 10:53 AMCopy HTML

You hold to a hope of salvation in the future, whilst not seeing the 'Kingdom' that is right here, right now.  Yes society is problematic.  But its all we have and there IS great beauty there, everywhere!  Unless you see yourself as part of this, you are in a sorry state, really. It is important to embrace not only the good, but the bad and the ugly and accept that you are a part of all this, and how you act and interract is your choice.  "Behold the Kingdom is at hand" If you can't find God right here in front of you in what you see (& how you see) you aint gonna find him in some future place or afterlife.
     _______________________________________________________________________________________

Well said to Brolgs there Dog!

Brolgs, we need to look for the good in people (including ourselves) and help them (and us) to develop and build on that further. Look for the beauty, look for the lovely, look for things of good repute and BUILD on it. Some folk may have had upbringings where they were told how 'bad' they were and how they would never amount to anything etc. I was one of the fortunate ones who wasn't raised that way but I know many who were. Sadly for some of them, they have let it affect their whole lives and others that I know have 'CHOSEN' to not let it affect them.

I read a quote last night - "we are the product of our choices, NOT our conditions"

Urch
Your unfailing love, O Lord, is as vast as the heavens; your faithfulness reaches beyond the clouds. Your righteousness is like the mighty mountains, your justice like the ocean depths.
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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:20/06/2009 11:28 AMCopy HTML

Good evening, Dog.

I suppose the best thing for me to do WRT your latest reply wouldn't be to point out your obviously poor handling and appreciation of context, but rather to address each of your proffered points in turn. So, here goes!

'Yes'. But who says that choice isn't an issue to being gay ...

many gay folk do! There are countless cases of gay folk who have struggled desperately to try to deny their orientation, but there reality is, they ARE GAY!

So? Read what I said again. I asked whether choice isn't an issue to being gay (point one), and to engaging in homosexual sex (point two). I'm friends with a bloke who chooses to be gay, and who chooses to engage in homosexual sex. Clearly choice does feature in the matter of being gay, in certain instances at least. However, choice clearly is an issue in 100% of all homosexual sex acts!

... or to engaging in homosexual sex? Is paedophilia also not a choice? Or beastiality? Or necrophilia? Do people not choose to engage in these sorts of behaviours? Sexual activity, any sexual activity, remains a matter of choice. One chooses to engage or to not engage.

Sure.  Of course choice is common to us all.

There you go!

Ian, I don't doubt your friends' story.  I'm sure there are many folk such as this, that seek to fulfill their life with pleasures, one way or another.  As I see it, society is plagued by a great sickness, spiritually.  Folk are often lost in pursuits that are not satisfying, driven by consumerism, and a kind of 'gluttony'.  They are mostly blind to deeper, mindful living, but propelled to try and fill their life with material vanities and other things that just don't make them good examples of humanity.  Being 'bored' by natural, normal things is a disease of sorts. Somehow, they have strayed far from the potential within them.  I'm not sure how it all came to this, but it is not restricted to sexual behaviour.  This is but one symptom of a greater problem.  Mankind sure knows how to turn life to crap in many ways!

And I would agree. However, I'd suggest that the "symptom" of which you speak, i.e. unrestrained hedonism, is indicative of the "greater problem", which is (ultimately) a failure to live our lives as if God "is".

Similarly, I choose to be faithful to my wife, as I refuse to consider myself a 'victim' to my urges and desires. Are you suggesting, on the other hand, that gay people are not as capable of personal constraint?

And you are to be commended for that Ian. It indicates a strength of character to maintain one's principles as you describe of yourself. The thing is, many folk don't have such strengths.  I think it's unfortunate, but it can be uncharitable to judge those who lack the gumption that others have. Gays are no different to others in any respect.  Some have great constraint where its required, and others don't.

Well, I didn't judge anyone by my personal standards. If you read my comments again, you'll see that I was actually suggesting the opposite may be the case! However, there was a study done in the good old US of A a few years back, which found that gays in that country, on average don't show the same level of personal constraint as do heterosexuals. From memory, it indicated that the average "straight" man had 9 sexual partners over the course of his life, whilst the average "queer" man had around 25! Furthermore, again if my memory serves me well, the life expectancy of the average "queer" American male is around 25 years less than the average "straight" male! Clearly, according to that data gays are more promiscuous, and are less healthy as a result!

Of course though.... it may be easy for one who has a lovely partner & family to boast of their fidelity within their marriage, and then postulate how a gay man should exercise constraint alone!

Of course, and it might be postulated that the one who lives his life attempting to follow (and model) the biblical pattern for relationship reaps the benefits; the one whose lifestyle choice opposes the biblical model; however, doesn't.

Ian, you stated unequivocably, "Jesus forbade divorce".

Context, context, context, my friend. As I recall, I clearly stated that Jesus, being God, provided the Divine absolute around which marriage was intended. I also stated that God made allowance for human frailty, divorce being one such allowance.

Despite the fact that humans are born with an instinctual and natural desire to be close & intimate with others?

So you believe that sex qualifies as the primary or highest form of intimacy than a human can achieve, do you? Would you then judge people who choose (for whatever reason) to remain celibate as being incapable of intimacy? Would you question their humanity as a consequence of their choice?

You cheapen your argument with this offering Ian!  Of course, intimacy takes many forms (including sex) and (as much as celibacy is a choice) the desire for sexual satisfaction is as natural and valid as any of the other instincts we share to be connected with others. What can be a shame, is when folk are taught to feel shame or guilt for these natural desires because of religious b/s, and can lead to all sorts of disturbing outcomes.  Repression of sexual expression can really screw some people up!

I think the pertinent point in your statement, above, centres on the words "natural desires" (which I boldened, above). My point is that homosexual desires aren't natural; consequently, when they're entertained, "... all sorts of disturbing outcomes" do occur! And as for "repression of sexual expression really screwing some people up", what about the effects of unrepressed sexual expression, eh? Rape? Sexual violence in all its forms? Doesn't this sort of aberrant behaviour also "screw some people up"? Why not homosexuality? (after all, didn't you state, above:
"There are countless cases of gay folk who have struggled desperately to try to deny their orientation"?)

That suggests to be a cruel and hienous creator, who takes pleasure in tormenting his creation.  Oh and greater joy for this monster..... if they fail to live up to these preposterous standards, and end up being tormented forever!

Ha, ha. Your standard refrain, Dog, but a completely illogical conclusion to reach from the evidence that's under discussion.

Oh that's right.  You are the Vulcan, and logic belongs to you alone!

Quite possibly. But unlike you, it seems, I don't immediately leap to incredibly fanciful and dramatic conclusions, those that have no basis in the info being discussed! Perhaps a capacity for "logical reasoning" is another tangible benefit to be derived from living in peace with God? Who knows?

Live long and prosper.

Ian

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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:20/06/2009 11:38 AMCopy HTML

Hi, Ralph.

Oi! What's with the recent spate of "brain-farts", old fella?

Blessings,

Ian

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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:20/06/2009 12:34 PMCopy HTML

 Ian,

Nup, you stated "Jesus forbade divorce".  Don't give me that context stuff.  It is an 'absolute statement' that you made in the Cbox a while back.
"for there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so" Shakespeare (Hamlet, Act 2, Scene 2)
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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:20/06/2009 8:36 PMCopy HTML

 I know of a very successful ministry being conducted by a man who was a former "gay" person who was onetime arrested for having male to male sex in a public toilet. Today this man because of the wonderful grace of God provides specialised ministry across [i]ALL denominations[/i] in the SE Qld area in the areas of homosexuality and also provides support for all sorts of sexual addiction... The humiliation that this man suffered when he confessed to his wife about his "extra" activities is what brought him to his senses and through prayer and Godly counselling, he found his way free of his own addictions and today he is a proud grandfather..

... so Ian is right: you do have a choice !!

Metanoia
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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:20/06/2009 10:40 PMCopy HTML

Dog,

Not at all. Every time that I make a comment that requires qualification, I do so. And on this subject, I did so. Search the site and you'll discover that I've discussed the topic of divorce on several occasions. My opinions can be found readily enough.

Blessings,

Ian

email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:21/06/2009 1:01 AMCopy HTML

Reply to Didaktikon (20/06/2009 21:38:58)
Hi, Ralph.

Oi! What's with the recent spate of "brain-farts", old fella?

Blessings,

Ian

It's OK Ian,

They tell me it will feel better when the pain disappears.

Ralph.


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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:21/06/2009 1:42 AMCopy HTML

 Ian,

Nup.  Your quoted statement was in the Cbox a couple of weeks or so ago.  It was not qualified (there at least) and remains an absolute statement.  I know you are extremely careful to check your communications, but your aren'y perfect.  Perhaps this was a rare occasion you left a 'red herring' going off in the son!  Well its pretty 'off' in my mind anyways!


Dog.
"for there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so" Shakespeare (Hamlet, Act 2, Scene 2)
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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:21/06/2009 1:44 AMCopy HTML

Woops!

Delete "aren'y"   Insert "aren't"

Phew!


Dog.
"for there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so" Shakespeare (Hamlet, Act 2, Scene 2)
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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:21/06/2009 1:46 AMCopy HTML

Dog,

I do remember the conversation. So I'd suggest that you go back and check the facts

Blessings,

Ian

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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:21/06/2009 2:13 AMCopy HTML

 To appease you, I checked, Ian.  It only went back to 5th June.  Your absolute statement must have been prior!
"for there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so" Shakespeare (Hamlet, Act 2, Scene 2)
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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:21/06/2009 2:25 AMCopy HTML

Dog,

Well, given that I am the author of the comment in question, and that I understand my own mind better than you, my statement stands! Now the context that stood behind that particular comment of mine is to be found in an earlier response directed to you; and other comments of mine on the subject divorce can be readily found scattered throughout this forum.

Now are you going to keep chasing down "rabbit-trails", or are you going to return to the actual discussion?

Blessings,

Ian

email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:21/06/2009 2:51 AMCopy HTML

 Gotta get me a ferret.  Watch out Ian, it might run right up your trousers, and bit sumthin!


Dog.
"for there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so" Shakespeare (Hamlet, Act 2, Scene 2)
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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:21/06/2009 3:40 AMCopy HTML

Episkopeo: Ian: You know about divorce, I have never come across so much divorce and remarriage etc as I have in the Revival churches. Epi

Didaktikon: Epi. Well, the whole matter seems to be inconsistently handled from within. I get the feeling that various pastors play rather fast-and-loose with Scripture when it comes to this subject. Ian
         [11 May 09 23:16:19]

Episkopeo: Ian They look after relatives and friends in this regard. They will find a reason for another marriage to go ahead even if no fornication. It's laughable when spiritual fornication is quoted. Epi
         [11 May 09 23:17:25]

Didaktikon: Epi. And it's sad when, realistically, Jesus forbade divorce altogether. Ian
         [11 May 09 23:18:18]

Episkopeo: Ian: Yes, the extent of it in Rev is unbelievable. Yet, if the pastor says it's OK then the whole community swallow it and go along with it because he is allowing it.
         [11 May 09 23:20:10]

Dog: "Jesus forbade divorce altogether"? Another dumb-arse archaic piece of biblical nonsense! :zonked:
         [12 May 09 05:01:38]

[LINK SiteName=Mothrust: Movies and Modern Myth Target=_blank]http://aintchristian.blogspot.com.au/[/LINK] Be nice, for everyone that you meet is fighting a harder battle - Anita Roddick
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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:21/06/2009 3:54 AMCopy HTML

 Thank you Mothman!

So Ian, tell me..... How can any context alter the abslout nature of your comment...Jesus forbade divorce altogether"?

Touche!

Dog.
"for there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so" Shakespeare (Hamlet, Act 2, Scene 2)
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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:21/06/2009 3:59 AMCopy HTML

Moth,

And where is the rest of the conversation, eh?

Blessings,

Ian

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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:21/06/2009 4:02 AMCopy HTML

Dog,

Are you suggesting that I'm inconsistent in my views about divorce and Jesus' teaching?

Blessings,

Ian

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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:21/06/2009 4:24 AMCopy HTML

 Your cbox has received 61 new posts in the last 24 hours:

Rest of the conversation?
I'll try to find it for you, but this is all the records I have for that day. 
You'll have to read it backwards. The conversation for that day ended with Dog's quote at 5pm.

Dog: "Jesus forbade divorce altogether"? Another dumb-arse archaic piece of biblical nonsense! :zonked:
         [12 May 09 05:01:38]

Episkopeo: Ian: I had to come back to decipher part two of your quote:- "ut sementem feceris, ita metes" Quite true, many do fear their reputation. "Multi famam conscientiam pauci verentur" - but few their conscience. I did fear my conscience, thank the Lord for that. It took a little time to regain. Epi
         [12 May 09 02:20:05]

Episkopeo: I must away now. Nice chatting. Epi
         [11 May 09 23:25:10]

Episkopeo: Ian: Yes, the extent of it in Rev is unbelievable. Yet, if the pastor says it's OK then the whole community swallow it and go along with it because he is allowing it.
         [11 May 09 23:20:10]

Didaktikon: Epi. And it's sad when, realistically, Jesus forbade divorce altogether. Ian
         [11 May 09 23:18:18]

Episkopeo: Ian They look after relatives and friends in this regard. They will find a reason for another marriage to go ahead even if no fornication. It's laughable when spiritual fornication is quoted. Epi
         [11 May 09 23:17:25]

Didaktikon: Epi. Well, the whole matter seems to be inconsistently handled from within. I get the feeling that various pastors play rather fast-and-loose with Scripture when it comes to this subject. Ian
         [11 May 09 23:16:19]

Episkopeo: Ian: You know about divorce, I have never come across so much divorce and remarriage etc as I have in the Revival churches. Epi
         [11 May 09 23:14:19]

Didaktikon: Ciao. Ian
         [11 May 09 23:11:33]

spitchips: sorry - these fingers are not behaving: All: I must be off and do some tasks. Thanks for the chat - enjoyed myself as always.
         [11 May 09 23:10:22]

SinTaxError: Bye all. Gotta work :(
         [11 May 09 23:10:10]

spitchips: All: I'
         [11 May 09 23:09:44]

Episkopeo: Ian: They're all a bit that way. Epi
         [11 May 09 23:09:30]

spitchips: I was offered an 'out' many times from my husband of 30 years. Funny thing is, we knew each other long before Rev, and we were always committed to each other IN SPITE of Rev.
         [11 May 09 23:09:26]

Didaktikon: Chips, et al. Visser apparently believes himself to above correction, likely as not because he probably believes himself to be infallible in his pronouncements. Ian
         [11 May 09 23:08:26]

Episkopeo: STN What makes me laugh is that a friend wants a divorce to remarry there doesn't have to be any fornication as such. They will find a reason like spiritual fornication - his/her walk wasn't right. Epi
         [11 May 09 23:08:00]

spitchips: Just had a read of the link. DisGRACEful, really. They're in for a hell of a ride, that lot, under Visser. Talks a lot about cold shivers. Chips
         [11 May 09 23:07:03]

Didaktikon: STE. The divorce bit, although nepotism among certain well-placed families rankles me too. As for your former offer, I'm guessing all bets are well and truly off now! Ian
         [11 May 09 23:06:25]

SinTaxError: Ian: the divorce bit, or the nepotistic pastors? I got a future 'offer' myself once, from JK himself :)
         [11 May 09 23:05:29]

Episkopeo: prospect
         [11 May 09 23:05:19]

Episkopeo: STN: All those Vissers. What a terrible prespect. Epi
         [11 May 09 23:05:06]

Didaktikon: STE. Scary, huh? Ian
         [11 May 09 23:04:22]

SinTaxError: Epi: Pieter Visser's son Ben Visser is also a pastor in Holland.
         [11 May 09 23:04:13]

Episkopeo: Ian: Good word "wierider" and it will get wierder and wierder as Visser like many others is grooming his son for future leadership. Like empire building. Epi
         [11 May 09 23:03:19]

SinTaxError: Chips. Not only forced marriages, which are common, but sometimes also (subtly) forced divorces, esp when one member of the partnership makes a 'mistake'.
         [11 May 09 23:02:28]

Didaktikon: Cips. Indeed. When marriage is based on anything other than friendship and love it's a precarious deal at best. Ian
         [11 May 09 23:01:37]

SinTaxError: http://www.revivalfellowship.nl/magazines.htm The April 09 one.
         [11 May 09 23:00:58]

spitchips: I mean, the ones I know about.
         [11 May 09 23:00:38]

spitchips: I was going over the list of people who were 'forced' to marry. And how many divorces there are amongst them. I'm sure higher thant the national average. That's just one issue I know. Chips
         [11 May 09 23:00:22]

SinTaxError: Ha, yes. Hmmmm...
         [11 May 09 22:59:08]

spitchips: Epi; ha ha, it's almost 'whatever they say, do the opposite and you'll be right. Chips Hi STE
         [11 May 09 22:58:24]

Didaktikon: STE. Yep. But the European RF under Visser is slightly weirder again. More akin to the GRC or perhaps even the CAI. Ian
         [11 May 09 22:58:20]

Episkopeo: Chips: Yes I do remember that Chips. Glad it was of some help. Trouble is those inside the Rev system think they are the free ones and others are under bondage. Epi
         [11 May 09 22:57:25]

SinTaxError: Hi All. Yep, so many still living in FEAR. I know hundreds :( Some oversight actively promote the culture of fear. Eg see the latest Euro report and the "article" on God's grace. Most of the members in Europe would that on board (partly out of a misguided sense of duty, but also out of fear).
         [11 May 09 22:55:56]

spitchips: Epi: When I first posted here, you said "Welcome to the wider Christian community - and to freedom." You probably don't remember, but it made an impact on me. Chips
         [11 May 09 22:54:39]

Didaktikon: Epi. Given the sorts of letters that Peter, Paul and John left us, I'm fairly sure we can guess what they would think, eh? Ian
         [11 May 09 22:54:01]

spitchips: Ian: Yes, ironic alright. I had no idea. I thought I'd go to my grave feeling that way. I'm big on giving thanks now, though, for what I've found. Because I don't feel the old pressure, I find I want to fellowship (in the true sense) more than I ever wanted to go to a meeting. Chips
         [11 May 09 22:53:36]

Episkopeo: Chips and Ian: I was always compulsive note taker and when I was searching for something else I discovered notes I had made on the introduction to a Sunday talk (also bought the tape) and I remember at the time thinking "this is right off" asked a few others how they liked the talk and was told "great" although some couldn't remember. I overlooked it but look at it now and wonder why I did overlook. Couldn't help wondering what the apostles, Peter, Paul, John etc would think. Epi
         [11 May 09 22:53:07]

Didaktikon: Chips. Yes. Isn't it funny how life in Revivalism bred fear rather than a freedom from fear? How ironic. Ian
         [11 May 09 22:50:51]

spitchips: I'm so jolly grateful to be out of it, though. I thought very consciously the other day: I don't have the 'revival' worry in my life any more. I'd like to be aware of this freedom/safety for as long as I can. Chips
         [11 May 09 22:48:19]

spitchips: Epi: I'm not sure, either. I have a way about me, I guess. I also turned up very infrequently towards the end and was not questioned very much. I'm not sure, though, how I got away with it. Mind you, some did give me the third degree and I refused to respond at all. Maybe silence was a good answer afterall.
         [11 May 09 22:46:34]

Didaktikon: Chips. Good for you! Ian
         [11 May 09 22:45:06]

Episkopeo: Chips: I don't know how you got away with it. Epi
         [11 May 09 22:45:01]

spitchips: Ooops - Ian: I used your phrase "replacing bad theology with good theology, rather than no theology" the other day. Really helped me explain why I'm now doing what I do. Chips
         [11 May 09 22:44:35]

Episkopeo: I become a little annoyed when I think my/our compliance to the demands of Revivalism at the expense of family. I see them still doing the same in the name of God (and Rev) Epi
         [11 May 09 22:44:25]

spitchips: Ian: I used your phrase
         [11 May 09 22:43:53]

spitchips: Hey Epi and Ian. I'm glad I was 'slack' and left my daughter at home - refused to brow beat her into submission. I'm thankful my hubby was not 'in fellowship' and they had so much daddy/daughter time together. I was the silly one. Chips
         [11 May 09 22:42:41]

Didaktikon: Epi. True. Although my 3 years experience of Revivalism certainly kick-started both for me once I left. Ian
         [11 May 09 22:41:33]

Episkopeo: Ian: Nor ours. Epi
         [11 May 09 22:40:59]

Didaktikon: Epi. Nor is Revivalism conducive to the development of their minds and spirits. Ian
         [11 May 09 22:39:56]

Episkopeo: I didn't even approve the RCI methods where children were concerned, being lumped around with their sleeping bags mid week, Fri nights and Sun nights. Lying on hard floors then disturbed to be lifted or walked out to cars on cold nights and out again into their own beds is certainly not conducive to their health and ability to work well at school. Epi
         [11 May 09 22:30:16]

Didaktikon: Episkopeo et Solanum ramentum. As Cicero once quipped (although I reckon he stole the line from Jesus): "ut sementem feceris, ita metes" :lol: Ian
         [11 May 09 22:27:36]

Episkopeo: At the time, I was probably searching and what they had to say seemed plausible and worth investigating and the "we're just happy Christians" seemed nice. I didn't realise that after being immersed in water I'd quickly become immersed in a mob mentality. It is scary. Epi
         [11 May 09 22:12:04]

Episkopeo: Better stick with chips, Chips. No need to be choking on the humble pie. I often wonder the same thing Chips. How did I get caught up? A time of madness or maybe I just had to learn the hard way. Thankfully, Chips, we did learn. Epi
         [11 May 09 21:57:12]

Didaktikon: Chips. Rightly so :glad: 'Orthodox' means 'safe'. Ian
         [11 May 09 18:30:00]

spitchips: Yep, I know, scarily. I always thought conservative/orthodox meant boring, passionless and judgemental. Oh dear. I've almost choked on the huge pieces of humble pie I've been forced to feed on. Chips
         [11 May 09 18:16:42]

Didaktikon: Chips. You might be surprised what can be achieved via 'group-think'. Ian
         [11 May 09 18:10:50]

spitchips: Ian: I've been examining myself lately, trying to figure out how I was led down the Revival track all those years ago, having met up recently with an ex-RCI friend. I remember I was a little bit 'left of centre' and the non-conformity aspect (non-orthodox) appealed to me. Just like Jesus, I thought (a non-conformist in His day). I'm not sure I could ever have accepted the message of prosperity, back then or now. Chips
         [11 May 09 17:57:20]

Didaktikon: Chips/ Gaaak. Delete 'whose', insert 'who is' :cry: Ian
         [11 May 09 17:19:46]

Didaktikon: Chips. It's simply a case of having lots of contacts. Personally, I think Brian Hou$ton and HillSong are more focussed on the earning power of the 'brand' then they are on the welfare of the people who attend the Garden City church. Still, how does one answer an Elder Board whose more interested in being led by a CEO than a shepherd? The ACC/AoG in all its worldly glory :/ Ian
         [11 May 09 17:18:47]

spitchips: Ian: Seems you saw that one coming. Chips
         [11 May 09 16:54:19]
[LINK SiteName=Mothrust: Movies and Modern Myth Target=_blank]http://aintchristian.blogspot.com.au/[/LINK] Be nice, for everyone that you meet is fighting a harder battle - Anita Roddick
dogmafree Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #88
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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:21/06/2009 5:28 AMCopy HTML

Reply to Didaktikon (20/06/2009 22:02:41)

Dog,

Are you suggesting that I'm inconsistent in my views about divorce and Jesus' teaching?

Blessings,

Ian

Ian,

Generally NO.

However on this occasion, YES!  At least you failed to present your views with consistency.

Clearly "Jesus forbade divorce altogether" is an absolute statement.  No manner of skirting around, talking about context alters the fact.

If you made a feaux pas at the time, you failed to elaborate or correct yourself.  So how would any reasonable person read anything other than what your statement suggests?


But don't beat y'self up Ian.  You ARE human!  I just won't be bullied into being told the fault is mine!  Cheers!


Dog.

"for there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so" Shakespeare (Hamlet, Act 2, Scene 2)
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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:21/06/2009 5:41 AMCopy HTML

Dog,

Or, perhaps, I presented my view more than adequately, but you misunderstood the implications?

'Yes', I'm fully human; and 'no' I wasn't attempting to bully you. But I am struggling to see how it is that you've misunderstood the implications of post # 74, and what this tangential issue has to do with the discussion at hand.

Blessings,

Ian

email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:21/06/2009 6:06 AMCopy HTML

Well yes, it is a tangent from the main topic, but an issue that came up, and I don't accept your side-stepping the fact that your statement states what it states!

So why did you say it?  (Take this to a new thread if you wish)


Dog.
"for there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so" Shakespeare (Hamlet, Act 2, Scene 2)
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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:21/06/2009 8:16 AMCopy HTML

 To Episkopeo,

In your many observations of divorce and remarriage within the Revival Centres International , can you summarise or briefly describe what you see are the reasons why the Revivalists are divorcing and re-marrying in what seems a very prolific rate.. ??

Metanoia


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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:21/06/2009 10:36 AMCopy HTML

Dog,

Well, feel free to start another post if you think you're up to waging war on two fronts at the one time!

Blessings,

Ian

email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:24/06/2009 1:24 AMCopy HTML

If we take God out of the picture for a minute and look at it using common sence what answer do you come up with?

First of all if you look at the 2 types of species (male and female) they are made in such a way to work together to produce more of the same. So one would call this a natural? So there is really no point of 2 males or 2 females is there? I guess other than lust? Animals even see this, unless you are a snail or some other creature that is both!

So the first conclusion is that it is UN-NATURAL for homosexuality, wouldn't you say?

Second of all, the health problems,
I don't want to go into the mechanics of it all, but for the men  (not sure about women) wouldn't the backside be the place where waste is suppose to come out, not stuff it with something else?  I am not a doctor but I do guess that there are health problems cause by this. So point 2 is, The body was NOT designed for it so why break it. I guess it's like when you played with that toy (as a kid) where you shoved the square shape into the triangle hole?

Third, it is also a breakdown in society. If you take away the common sence the rest will start to crumble (give it time, you i'll see)

There is many more things you could say but I think you get my drift.

On a more personal note, I myself use to HATE homosexuals, I found them disgusting. As a matter of fact in the bad old days I was invloved in a group of people where we would "teach them a lesson" one could say. Since becoming a christian I have learn't that these people are no different from anyone else who has problems. We all have problems I guess. I still think the mechanics are wrong, but generally I find that these people are even nicer to talk to than straight people (not all though). I know a few of them and they are friends and a nice people, but that's as far as it goes.
This may not be right but the way I look at it now is that something somewhere along in there lives has been screwed up. Eg, a mental problem? I don't mean that in a bad way either.

Now of course this is all from a point of view outside of the bible. The bible clearly states and NO ONE can say otherwise, that it is an abomination. I'm sorry for those that think I am wrong, but that's God's call, take it up with him. After all God said Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve?
As Ian said (basically) It's all about self control....

Xracer.

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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:24/06/2009 1:40 AMCopy HTML

 Bizarre rationale Xracer.

You assume all homosexuals are sexually active when this is not the case, intimacy takes many different forms. What place does common-sense have in relationships and affairs of the human heart anyway.

So-far most contributors to this thread have immediately turned their attention to the physical/mechanical aspects of the subject rather than the emotional needs of homosexuals wanting to express their love for each-other by getting married. The thread is about a vote (which is a personal choice despite what "the major" has to say on the subject) NOT about what goes on in the bedroom.

And the "Adam and Steve" gag is a shocker!

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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:24/06/2009 4:00 AMCopy HTML

Hi Tommo,

Sorry to upset you, but unless I am getting the wrong impression are not Homosexual people called this becuase of what goes on in the bedroom (as you put it)?  Simple becuase what you are saying that 2 people from the same gender are homosexual if they are good friends?

I am also sure that sex is apart of marriage, correct me if I am wrong. By what you are saying is that there are homosexual couples out there that are married and don't do this? I find that interesting. As I said I know a few homosexuals and they would beg to differ on your response there.
The human heart can be very miss guided, I don't mean that in a nasty way as you seem to take things. I simply mean things like, your heart can sometimes "lead" you the wrong way. Love is Blind I think the the famous quote?

The Adam and Steve is a very old gag, funny that you find it shocking....wrong I would understand, but shocking seems to be a bit over the top.
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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:25/06/2009 10:48 AMCopy HTML

I believe all adults in Australia have a right to form a love relationship that is recognised by the law. I do not believe that moral considerations should come into play in the making of said laws.
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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:25/06/2009 11:00 AMCopy HTML

Galien,

Sure. But given that you're apparently a "Christian", and the Christian Bible prohibits homosexuality and restricts marriage to between men and women, how do your religious beliefs shape your ethical and moral beliefs? Or don't they?

Ian

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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:25/06/2009 11:53 AMCopy HTML

I believe that even Christians go through many levels of understanding during a lifetime. For a long time, even after I left Revival, I was still a very letter of the law Christian. So much so that I used the word of God to destory my relationship with my eldest child because she was acting in what I considered a very ungodly way. I had adopted her from my sister who also had multiple problems.

Everything I said to my child was biblically correct. I asked her to leave my home because I could not tolerate her unchristian behaviour in my godly, holy home. We remained estranged for 18 months until a kind christian friend reminded me that my job was not to judge my child, but to love her unconditionally, outside her behaviour. Never having experienced that myself it was quite the challenge to learn how to do so. Thankfully I had taught her how to be forgiving, and now we are very close. The whole experience taught me a very valuable lesson.

 want the world to be a perfect place, where everyone is like Jesus. Where everyone is kind, loving, no one needs to lord it over anyone else. Where people don't need to judge each other, put others down tomake them feel superior. Where people worship god rather than money or status. Where we don't do everything from a self centred need to feed our own ego, but from an other centred love.

Where people dont need to use the bible or religion to make others feel less than they are.

I realise now that being a christian is not about adhering to the letter of the law, it is about love. The kind that transcends the need to be right, the kind set out in 1 Corinthians 13. I can do every single thing the bible tells me too, but if I do not have genuine love for others from a pure heart, I am nothing.

I learned that from my appalling behaviour with my own child. I was doing all the right things. Or so I thought. But in my own self righteousness I had forgotten the most important thing. That the love of God is shed abroad in my heart by the holy spirit which is given to me. But I just preferred to be right, pure and simple. Because I loved God and I wanted to please him, and I would never so the things that she was doing blah blah blah.

Now I just hang my head in shame at the way I acted.

So you ask on what I base my moral judgements? Not the letter of the law. I can wish it to be true, but I cannot make anyone else want what I want. I can judge them, villify them, treat them as badly as my own self righteousness allows, but at some point, I have to be completely naked before god in my prayer closet. And in that place I have nothing to justify anything other than my own repentance over my own failings.

If I have not love, I am nothing. 
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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:25/06/2009 12:02 PMCopy HTML

Galien,

I doubt you understand the Bible with one tenth the clarity that you think you do, furthermore I seriously doubt that what you modeled in your home would've been recognised as Christian by either Christ or Paul. Contrary to your assertion, being a Christian is not about undefined and sentimental feelings of "love". Jesus himself made it quite plain that to be a Christian required following him, and doing what he commanded.

Ian

email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:25/06/2009 9:08 PMCopy HTML

I doubt you understand the Bible with one tenth the clarity that you think you do, furthermore I seriously doubt that what you modeled in your home would've been recognised as Christian by either Christ or Paul. Contrary to your assertion, being a Christian is not about undefined and sentimental feelings of "love". Jesus himself made it quite plain that to be a Christian required following him, and doing what he commanded.

I guess this  is where we take two different roads Major. You believe that understanding the Bible is the key. Do you think those men who stood there in line with stones in hand ready to do what God commanded in a situation of adultery understood the scriptures they studied?  I am sure they did. Didn't make them right thought did it? Didn't stop Jesus from making sure they knew that even though they were following said scriptures, that there was another dimension in play. You may find that dimension "undefined" and "sentimental". Jesus never did. He saw right through everyone. He knew which of us were motivated by love, and which of us are motivated by something else entirely.

I have been priveleged to have a relationship with God since I was nine. Complicated I guess in some ways by the fact that the minister who introduced me to God then sexually assaulted me for the next three months. Hasn't given me what one would call a great deal of respect for men who tell me a good thing then follow it up with opposite behaviour. But it has sure taught me the difference between god and men.

That relationship is not one of fear, but one of love. Coming to know God as a child I know him not only my father, but my daddy, the only real one I have ever had. I sin like everyone. God forgives me. I rail against him, he laughs. I am not AFRAID of him Major. In awe, but not afraid. I love him, he loves me. I'm not perfect and I don 't have to be.

I hope one day major that you find the other dimension where that silly undefined love rules. That you learn to feel the weight of that stone in your hand, and everything it represents. Jesus died to show us a new way, that is why he told the men with the stones to back off. He constantly said you have been taught this, but I tell you this. He showed us a new way, ones that does not depend on following the letter of the law.

The Revival mess never really worked that out. It damaged all of us major, even you. In my understanding, pathetic as it is in your eyes, following someone means doing what they did. Having a degree in theology does not mean that you necessarily understand the bible. Having a degree in psychology does not mean I understand everything about the human heart and mind either. 
 

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