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cultevasion
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Date Posted:17/06/2009 4:01 AMCopy HTML

ACL Header
 

Dear ACL Supporter

When surveys designed by the people paying for them to be conducted ask questions that work to influence the outcome, “framing bias” is the term used.

The report in today’s Melbourne Herald Sun tells us that a survey conducted for and paid for by a homosexual activist group gave a not unsurprising result.

Can we encourage you to vote NO on this voteline? Click here to vote. These polls generally close at midnight for reporting in the paper the next morning.

Let’s make our voices heard in support of marriage between a man and a woman.

Thanks for taking action.

God bless

Jim Wallace AM
Managing Director

 

cultivation leads to cultevasion -
don"t reap what they sow!
Didaktikon Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #1
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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:17/06/2009 4:12 AMCopy HTML

Hi, CE.

I know Jim Wallace personally. He's a former Commanding Officer of the Special Air Service Regiment, and a former Commander of Special Operations Command. Extremely intelligent, unquestioned integrity,and he's one very (very) tough man!

Blessings,

Ian

email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:17/06/2009 5:55 AMCopy HTML

 I have just placed my "no" vote !! However I am saddened that 55% of the voters thus far are saying "yes"... 
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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:17/06/2009 6:04 AMCopy HTML

 There I have just copied and pasted your post into an email and sent to a monumental list in the undisclosed recipient line around everyone I know.

-- hope this helps in some way !!
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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:17/06/2009 11:57 AMCopy HTML

Ian, I couldn't agree more with your description of Jim.  He may be 'tough' on the outside but he has a soft heart for God and a great love for our nation and its people.  He and his co-workers (some of whom are good friends of mine) do a brilliant job and I support them and pray for them regularly.

Urch
Your unfailing love, O Lord, is as vast as the heavens; your faithfulness reaches beyond the clouds. Your righteousness is like the mighty mountains, your justice like the ocean depths.
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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:17/06/2009 11:04 PMCopy HTML

 Bigotry and marginalisation still lives in your hearts despite leaving revivalism I see!
Didaktikon Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #6
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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:18/06/2009 12:20 AMCopy HTML

Thommo,

Adherence to biblical norms is indicative of taking a principled approach to the issue. Your charge of "bigotry", on the other hand, is based on the false assumption that there are no "rights" or "wrongs"; that personal and individual choice is the sole determiner of merit or value. But I'd suggest that you don't really believe this.

Blessings,

Ian

email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:18/06/2009 1:08 AMCopy HTML

Christianity certainly shows its UGLY head when these kind of issues are presented.  Using the bible to support a position of intolerance just demonstrates how dysfunctional it really is.  You can stick to your "rights" and "wrongs" and your narrow little outlooks and dance around your pretend pasture of righteousness if you like.  A perfectly good reason to give christianity a very wide berth.  What a sick, sorry way of thinking!


Dog.




"for there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so" Shakespeare (Hamlet, Act 2, Scene 2)
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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:18/06/2009 1:41 AMCopy HTML

Dog,

And here was me thinking that you were a little more tolerant yourself! I suppose then, that "tolerance" doesn't extend to those who hold to Christian beliefs in your world? Christians are the one segment of society who are not allowed to express their democratic rights to voicing their views. They are therefore to be exempted from seeking to shape society according to their beliefs and values, as society is only to be shaped by the alternative values-based, non-Christian special interest groups (given that there is no such animal as a "values-neutral" approach to social engineering). Wow! It seems that you might even be more intolerant than we are.  

So riddle me this: how does one moderate "dysfunctional" behaviour in your cultural schema? On what basis does one regulate society's values, mores and norms if one doesn't believe that "right" and "wrong" exist as moral, social and ethical categories? Really, I'm intrigued.

Blessings,

Ian

email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:18/06/2009 2:05 AMCopy HTML

 Ian,

Your position has become expansive and is attempting to draw the debate into the broader area of moderating "dysfunctional" behaviour. I was referring to the topic at hand - the rights of gay people to marry, a case where a persons individual choice IS the sole determiner of merit.

Tommo
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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:18/06/2009 2:15 AMCopy HTML

Thommo,

I was referring to the topic at hand - the rights of gay people to marry, a case where a persons individual choice IS the sole determiner of merit.

Wrong. Completely wrong. In each and every human culture and society, marriage remains a socially/communally determined construct: notions of the supposed "rights" of the individual take a "backseat" to the broader values base of the community, corporately. Your completely fanciful assertion that an individual retains the right to choose what gender (or species) that s/he wishes to marry is socially moderated. And, of course, there isn't now, nor has there ever been, a single human culture which has, at any point in its recorded history, determined that marriage is anything but between men and women. If you don't believe me, then you could try to prove me wrong.

Ultimately, homosexuals want "gay marriage" legalised for one reason and one reason only: they believe that it will afford them the one thing they otherwise lack: concrete social acceptance that their lifestyle and sexual practices are normal. By the way, precisely the same argument has been proposed in the past by European paedophiles who were intent on reducing the legal age for sexual intercourse.

Blessings,

Ian



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dogmafree Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #11
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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:18/06/2009 2:34 AMCopy HTML

 Ian, what an overreaction on your part.  Of course christians have a right to their say on how society is, AS DO others in society.  Culture does well to include every part of society, rather than impose a restictive view that it would seem is represented with this issue.  I'm not advocating a society without values or cultural consensus on how society should be.

The dysfuction I speak of is where a group such as christians seek to condemn another group (the homosexual community among us) as wrong, using scripture or other basis to support their attitude of non-acceptance or prejudice.  This outlook seeks to marginalize homosexual folk.  To suggest someone should not live and love and enjoy the same rights as the hetrosexual community just because they are gay is far from helpful, and does not show tolerance.

Dog.
"for there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so" Shakespeare (Hamlet, Act 2, Scene 2)
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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:18/06/2009 2:45 AMCopy HTML

 And Ian, what IF one of your daughters after much angst, came out and told you she was a lesbian, that at her core, she knows she is not a heterosexual, and that she wishes to enjoy an open and honest relationship with a partner that she loves?

How would your christian ideals help to deal with the situation?  Does telling her it is WRONG help?  Would you be happy to tell her she must contain her sexuality and remain abstinate for life?  Or would you not accept her status, and want to help her 'convert' to a heterosexual??? or what?

Dog.
"for there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so" Shakespeare (Hamlet, Act 2, Scene 2)
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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:18/06/2009 2:51 AMCopy HTML

Hi, Dog.

Ian, what an overreaction on your part.

Hardly. I simply did something that I doubt that you did: I considered the matter philosophically, from first principles to logical outcomes. A good example of an emotionally-based overreaction would be something of this sort: "Using the bible to support a position of intolerance just demonstrates how dysfunctional it really is. You can stick to your "rights" and "wrongs" and your narrow little outlooks and dance around your pretend pasture of righteousness if you like...", offered in response to what was a simple and inoffensive comment of mine, one which sought to highlight that Christians adhering to biblical values on this issue was nothing more than a principled approach to the subject.

Of course christians have a right to their say on how society is, AS DO others in society.  Culture does well to include every part of society, rather than impose a restictive view that it would seem is represented with this issue.  I'm not advocating a society without values or cultural consensus on how society should be.

Well that's pleasing to hear. So do you, then, believe that a given society should radically alter its laws and social fabric to accommodate the desires of a group which constitutes less than 0.5% of the total population?

The dysfuction I speak of is where a group such as christians seek to condemn another group (the homosexual community among us) as wrong, using scripture or other basis to support their attitude of non-acceptance or prejudice.

Really? So on what "dysfunctional" basis did you just condemn the Christian position, in order to support your own "...attitude of non-acceptance or prejudice" towards Christian beliefs on this issue?

This outlook seeks to marginalize homosexual folk.

Marginalise them? How is that, exactly?

To suggest someone should not live and love and enjoy the same rights as the hetrosexual community just because they are gay is far from helpful, and does not show tolerance.

Why? What moral/ethical construct forms the basis of this assumption? And in closing, could you please indicate to me which rights homosexuals are currently prevented from enjoying in our society?

Blessings,

Ian

email: didaktikon@gmail.com
Didaktikon Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #14
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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:18/06/2009 3:12 AMCopy HTML

Dog, once more.

And Ian, what IF one of your daughters after much angst, came out and told you she was a lesbian, that at her core, she knows she is not a heterosexual, and that she wishes to enjoy an open and honest relationship with a partner that she loves?

The ultimate "what-if" question, huh? Well, both my daughters have boyfriends, both of them also have friends (of both genders) who are openly gay. Yet neither daughter has at any point indicated that they hold feelings of sexual attraction towards girls! So it really is a moot point, and about as relevant as would be you saying, "well Ian, what if you suddenly decided that you didn't really believe in all that Jesus and God stuff anymore?"

How would your christian ideals help to deal with the situation?  Does telling her it is WRONG help?  Would you be happy to tell her she must contain her sexuality and remain abstinate for life?  Or would you not accept her status, and want to help her 'convert' to a heterosexual??? or what?

To begin with understand that I have a couple of gay friends myself, with no professions of Christianity. My response to the situation of counseling a gay person has always been along these lines: there is nothing sinful about being attracted towards a person of the same gender, just as there is nothing sinful about being attracted towards a person of the opposite gender. However, just as it's morally wrong, from a biblical perspective, for a "straight" person to engage in sexual behaviour outside of marriage, so too is it morally wrong for a "queer" person to do so. But from a biblical perspective all homosexual behaviour is morally, ethically and socially wrong. This fact remains an absolute; there is simply no "wiggle room" available to the believer who professes to basing his or her beliefs on Christian Scripture. Consequently, a gay person who wishes to be a Christian, and who wishes to please God, has the option of exercising personal restraint, by choosing to lead a life of sexual abstinence.

Blessings,

Ian

email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:18/06/2009 3:54 AMCopy HTML


Why then should a brother and sister not be allowed to have a loving caring sexual relationship. Why do homosexuals have that right and not other people with deviant sexual behaviour/desires. I also know plenty of non-Christians who think homosexuality is not decent, so there is more to it than 'using the Bible'. IMHO it shows how much these groups have brainwashed society by slow degrees to thinking something abnormal is normal.
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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:18/06/2009 9:12 AMCopy HTML

I must be a weird kind of person. I have never, even in my 9 years in revival and my subsequent 10 years in another pentecostal church, ever considered it my business what other people do in their private lives. If same sex couples want to marry, what the hell does it even have to do with me? I have more than enough to keep me busy looking after my own backyard.

Personally I am more bothered by the fact I live in a society that is so completely obsessed with their outward appearance to the almost complete neglect of their inner character.
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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:18/06/2009 9:38 AMCopy HTML

Hi, Galien.

Well, I wouldn't dare presume to comment on your degree of "weirdness" or otherwise, but if you spent 19 years in a "Christian" church culture, and in spite of this believed that same sex marriage was okay, then I will presume that you didn't spend much of those 19 years reading the Bible! As I've maintained several times over the past few years in my musings here: theology informs beliefs, which then informs ethics. In your case it seems that inadequate/poor theology led to what are markedly unbiblical beliefs, which have resulted in decidedly un-Christian ethics. Something, perhaps, to consider.

Blessings,

Ian

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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:18/06/2009 9:58 AMCopy HTML

All,

This discussion has demonstrated a fact about which many people are seemingly blissfully ignorant: there is simply no such thing as "values-neutral" presuppositions! About anything! Each and every person consciously or subconsciously makes "values-laden" assumptions every time that one makes decisions about any matter, assumptions which are largely shaped by a combination of beliefs amassed over the course of one's life: social, religious, ethical and political. But let's not kid ourselves about one very important factor, and that is this: not everyone's world-view is either logically defensible or internally consistent! I personally attempt to reflect on matters such as the one currently under discussion as an informed and theologically sophisticated and aware Christian. And whilst you might not necessarily agree with the philosophical basis that underpins my moral and ethical reasoning processes, I'd challenge anyone to compare my processes against their own in a test of logical validity and consistency.

Blessings,

Ian

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dogmafree Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #19
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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:18/06/2009 1:14 PMCopy HTML

So god would have it that;

a)  A gay person must live all their years without having sex (even though they did not 'choose' to be gay)?

b) A person who (perhaps in their youth) marries a person who is violently abusive cannot divorce this person, and if they actually seperate, they must remain abstinate for the rest of their years (coz Jesus forbids divorce, & consequencially re-marriage)?

c) Evereyone must abstain from sex unless they have the fortune to find & marry a suitable partner.

d) And masturbation is also a naughty pastime, (it IS sex outside of marriage after all)!



Despite the fact that humans are born with an instinctual and natural desire to be close & intimate with others?

That suggests to be a cruel and hienous creator, who takes pleasure in tormenting his creation.  Oh and greater joy for this monster..... if they fail to live up to these preposterous standards, and end up being tormented forever!

How many of us parents would treat our children this way?

Dog.


"for there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so" Shakespeare (Hamlet, Act 2, Scene 2)
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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:18/06/2009 1:28 PMCopy HTML


Is that so? Even when one CHOOSES to stop having an opinion? Even when one is so sick and tired of being the voice of God that the mere thought of judging another creature is abhorrent? There comes a point in time for some people, and I am one of them, when right and wrong is simply no longer the point. The point becomes WHO AM I? What have all these years of Bible reading and praying and learning and seeking really done for me? How has the spirit of God changed me from an egotistical self seeking judgemental pain in the ass into a person who really sees others? Have I learned to love others with the love set out in Corinithians? Have I  learned the lessons that Jesus taught me? Did I listen when he said you have been taught this and this, but I show you a better way? Have I learned to stop looking outward and judging and finger pointing, have I allowed God total access into my heart, soul, mind and spirit? Am I completely authentic with him? Have I learned to concentrate on my faults and failings instead of everyone else's? Am I still running around in Revival Centre mode being just so right when everyone else is so wrong?

You may find yourself Mr Didakticon, just brimming with reason and consistency and I would imagine from the way you word your postings, credibility in your own eyes.

I don't see these things being listed as fruits of the Spirit anywhere in the Bible.

We all sin, all of us, all the time. We are no better and no worse than anyone else. The worst thing the Revival Centre ever taught me was to cling on to my own "rightness" and ownership of "the truth". All it taught me was how to be a Pharisee. The good in us comes from him, not us. There is none righteous, no, not one.

And after all is said and done, if your processes were found tobe superior then what? You win? Who cares? Why does it matter ?

I believe the text says "if you have not love you are nothing", not "if you have not reasoning and consistency you are nothing".
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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:18/06/2009 9:29 PMCopy HTML

Reply to Galien (18/06/2009 07:28:55)

Is that so? Even when one CHOOSES to stop having an opinion? Even when one is so sick and tired of being the voice of God that the mere thought of judging another creature is abhorrent? There comes a point in time for some people, and I am one of them, when right and wrong is simply no longer the point. The point becomes WHO AM I? What have all these years of Bible reading and praying and learning and seeking really done for me? How has the spirit of God changed me from an egotistical self seeking judgemental pain in the ass into a person who really sees others? Have I learned to love others with the love set out in Corinithians? Have I  learned the lessons that Jesus taught me? Did I listen when he said you have been taught this and this, but I show you a better way? Have I learned to stop looking outward and judging and finger pointing, have I allowed God total access into my heart, soul, mind and spirit? Am I completely authentic with him? Have I learned to concentrate on my faults and failings instead of everyone else's? Am I still running around in Revival Centre mode being just so right when everyone else is so wrong?

You may find yourself Mr Didakticon, just brimming with reason and consistency and I would imagine from the way you word your postings, credibility in your own eyes.

I don't see these things being listed as fruits of the Spirit anywhere in the Bible.

We all sin, all of us, all the time. We are no better and no worse than anyone else. The worst thing the Revival Centre ever taught me was to cling on to my own "rightness" and ownership of "the truth". All it taught me was how to be a Pharisee. The good in us comes from him, not us. There is none righteous, no, not one.

And after all is said and done, if your processes were found tobe superior then what? You win? Who cares? Why does it matter ?

I believe the text says "if you have not love you are nothing", not "if you have not reasoning and consistency you are nothing".

I see where you are coming from. If we think we are superior to any one we are in big trouble and really need to make some changes. If we are truly God's he will humble a person like that for their own good.
If we love someone and they are doing something that we know can forever remove them from God (hell) and do not share with them knowledge that can save them its a pretty poor exuse for love that we have. 
Maybe some homosexuals are born that way as are peadohiles or even motorcycle addicts like myself but I doubt it. I have seen plenty leave homosexuality and are much happier away from it. Have also seen others in their 40s move to it saying they wanted a change. These people are hardly born that way.

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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:18/06/2009 10:15 PMCopy HTML

If we love someone and they are doing something that we know can forever remove them from God (hell) and do not share with them knowledge that can save them its a pretty poor exuse for love that we have. Maybe some homosexuals are born that way as are peadohiles or even motorcycle addicts like myself but I doubt it. I have seen plenty leave homosexuality and are much happier away from it. Have also seen others in their 40s move to it saying they wanted a change. These people are hardly born that way.


Hell. Now there is an interesting concept. It was the place I went to in my own soul when the revival centre pastor who removed me from fellowship told me that God no longer loved me. After all hell is separation from God. That was before I knew that pastors lie.

How often should I share my knowledge with those around me that they are heathen scum? You would have to be living under a rock in this culture NOT to know what God says and thinks about, well pretty much everything really. The point is, if people do not believe in God, why would they care what the bible says about anything? If one does not believe in God, there is no threat in hell really is there?

People are largely hedonistic in my experience. Ego driven. As long as they stay that way there probably isn't much room for any serious consideration of what is happening in their soul. The flesh reigns supreme. It is no different in my view to any other kind of self centredness, and in that I would include arrogance, judgement of others, self righteousness etc. Those things also can and do remove people from God.

Humility is the key. Whatever talents we have are a gift. We have no business glorying in gifts. The point is to use them to help others, not elevate ourselves. If we have been gifted with spiritual awareness, then such awareness is not given so we may walk the planet telling everyone else they way they should live. We shouldn't have to. The way we live should be enough. Many Christians just continue along in the way of human nature, not even realising that is what Jesus died to defeat. That is the reason many feel Christians are hypocrites. Looking down their nose at the rest of the word whilst being some of the nastiest, most directive, arrogant,s elf righteous assholes to be found anywhere, prepared to shoot abortion doctors in the head and stone gays. Not exactly the attitude of Jesus was it? More like what was done to him. Remember the woman caught in adultery? But just like those at the time, it is oh so easy for us to forget we also have sin. When will we ever learn?

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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:18/06/2009 10:30 PMCopy HTML

We may disagree on homosexual marraige, but I couldn't agree more with anything in your last post. Its heart warming to see someone leave revival and understand Jesus' example and teaching.
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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:18/06/2009 10:52 PMCopy HTML

Good morning, Dog.

You've asked what God requires; I assume you still have a Bible gathering dust somewhere in your house, so why don't you crack it open as the answers are right to hand.

So god would have it that;

a)  A gay person must live all their years without having sex (even though they did not 'choose' to be gay)?

'Yes'. But who says that choice isn't an issue to being gay, or to engaging in homosexual sex? Is paedophilia also not a choice? Or beastiality? Or necrophilia? Do people not choose to engage in these sorts of behaviours? Sexual activity, any sexual activity, remains a matter of choice. One chooses to engage or to not engage.

Perhaps you might like to consider the following anecdote: one of my gay friends confided in me that he had tried all forms of heterosexual sex over the years, and sex had become 'boring' to him, it no longer gave him a "buzz". As he saw things the two options left open to him were between homosexual sex or bestiality. He chose the former. Similarly, I choose to be faithful to my wife, as I refuse to consider myself a 'victim' to my urges and desires. Are you suggesting, on the other hand, that gay people are not as capable of personal constraint?

b) A person who (perhaps in their youth) marries a person who is violently abusive cannot divorce this person, and if they actually seperate, they must remain abstinate for the rest of their years (coz Jesus forbids divorce, & consequencially re-marriage)?

'No', and we've addressed this subject elsewhere on the forum, in some detail. A person who is married to a violent or abusive partner can divorce, and can remarry.

c) Evereyone must abstain from sex unless they have the fortune to find & marry a suitable partner.

'Yes', such is very clearly the biblical position (we are discussing what God requires, after all).

d) And masturbation is also a naughty pastime, (it IS sex outside of marriage after all)!

Masturbation, as a 'pasttime', isn't mentioned in Scripture (Onan's sin was to disobey God by the way). Choosing to feed one's lust through pornography; however, is sinful and so should be avoided (if this is what leads to your proffered 'pasttime').

Despite the fact that humans are born with an instinctual and natural desire to be close & intimate with others?

So you believe that sex qualifies as the primary or highest form of intimacy than a human can achieve, do you? Would you then judge people who choose (for whatever reason) to remain celibate as being incapable of intimacy? Would you question their humanity as a consequence of their choice?

That suggests to be a cruel and hienous creator, who takes pleasure in tormenting his creation.  Oh and greater joy for this monster..... if they fail to live up to these preposterous standards, and end up being tormented forever!

Ha, ha. Your standard refrain, Dog, but a completely illogical conclusion to reach from the evidence that's under discussion.

Blessings,

Ian

email: didaktikon@gmail.com
Didaktikon Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #25
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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:18/06/2009 11:05 PMCopy HTML

Good morning, Galien.

You're very quick to personalise matters, aren't you? In any case, and contrary to your latest claim, you do have an opinion, and you had to make a conscious choice to reach the conclusions that you have. Furthermore, understand that this isn't about me seeking to put words into God's mouth and so attempting to speak on his behalf. What it is, however, is an issue that focuses on pointing out the words that God has already spoken on the subject! And it seems that I differ from you in yet another significant respect: to me choosing between "right" and "wrong" is always relevant, and is always necessary. After all, it's part and parcel of being created in God's image.

In closing, please, try not to judge me by your less-than-adequately-informed standards. After all, it's not my personal opinions or supposed 'righteousness' which is the issue in this discussion, rather it is God's requirements, clearly and unequivocally stated in Scripture. That you've failed to properly discern this important fact is simply further evidence that your underpinning theology, such as it is, is out of whack.

Think about it.

Blessings,

Ian


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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:18/06/2009 11:33 PMCopy HTML

Ian,

Surely you are not attempting to lump Paedophilia, Beastiality and Necrophilia in with Homosexual sex.

Tommo
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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:18/06/2009 11:49 PMCopy HTML

Good morning, Thommo.

Surely you are not attempting to lump Paedophilia, Beastiality and Necrophilia in with Homosexual sex.

My perspective on the subject is, and has been, shaped by God's Word rather than by whatever modern social theory is the current flavour of the month. And I'm certain that even you would agree that Scripture lumps homosexuality and bestiality together as being abhorrent and unnatural acts. I included paedophilia because it shares quite a bit in common with homosexuality (in terms of the arguments put forward to defend it), but for whatever reason, is lacking in the social support/tolerance.

Blessings,

Ian

email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:19/06/2009 12:21 AMCopy HTML

 This is not a "flavour of the month" issue. This is about human rights.

I understand your position is shaped by your belief that the bible is the standard to which everyone must be held... I am also patently aware of the overriding pessimism of christians generally when it comes to viewing the future of mankind. Surely, though, as a society we need to try to move on from some of the antiquated views of those who wrote the bible, Even its authors would change their view on the earth being flat if they were alive today!

As for the beastiality, necro, paeda/homo. sex comparison, you are way out of step. one word... consent.

 
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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:19/06/2009 12:40 AMCopy HTML

Thommo,

This is not a "flavour of the month" issue. This is about human rights.

And that is a particularly naive thing to say! If one approaches the subject as a Christian (as I have been), then whatever "rights" we have as humans are tempered/moderated by God's requirements of us. If one approaches the subject as a humanist (apparently your position), then one's "rights" are still tempered/moderated by an external source, in this case "society"!

I understand your position is shaped by your belief that the bible is the standard to which everyone must be held... I am also patently aware of the overriding pessimism of christians generally when it comes to viewing the future of mankind.

I must be a different sort of Christian to those you're apparently used to, as I hold to anything but a pessimistic attitude with respect to the future of humankind (and you might want to be careful using the word 'mankind', it's no longer socially acceptable).

Surely, though, as a society we need to try to move on from some of the antiquated views of those who wrote the bible, Even its authors would change their view on the earth being flat if they were alive today!

Ya think?

As for the beastiality, necro, paeda/homo. sex comparison, you are way out of step. one word... consent.

I was waiting for this argument! So you think "consent" to be the issue, do you? Whose? The parties engaged in the practice? The community in which the practice takes place? The wider culture? If you believe it relates strictly to the parties engaged, then how is it that society still regulates practices which it deems to be unacceptable, and enforces penalties against those who engage in prohibited behaviours anyway? Do you recall the recent incident in South Australia where a father and his daughter engaged in a consenual sexual relationship (I'm assuming you've heard of the word "incest"), one that even produced children? What was the outcome?

Blessings,

Ian

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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:19/06/2009 12:50 AMCopy HTML


You're very quick to personalise matters, aren't you?

If you say so. Perhaps I am just tired of listening to this dry old rhetoric. Reminds me of old toast that has been sitting on a kitchen bench for a full day.

In any case, and contrary to your latest claim, you do have an opinion, and you had to make a conscious choice to reach the conclusions that you have. Furthermore, understand that this isn't about me seeking to put words into God's mouth and so attempting to speak on his behalf. What it is, however, is an issue that focuses on pointing out the words that God has already spoken on the subject!

And that is your job is it? Because honestly, after doing it myself for years and years and years I found it somewhat tiring and pointless. People will NOT listen or care if they don't want to. I can't make them, and nor should I think it is my job to do so. And as I have pointed out, and you have ignored, God's word says many many things. You keep to every single one of them every day do you?

And it seems that I differ from you in yet another significant respect: to me choosing between "right" and "wrong" is always relevant, and is always necessary. After all, it's part and parcel of being created in God's image.

Knock yourself out then. You being a logic based person and me being a humanities based person, we will probably never agree on this matter. You are a letter of the law person, I am a heart person. Says it all really. You should know that advanced moral development is not a case of what will I get my ass kicked for that transgresses the law, written or unwritten, it is so much more than that.

In closing, please, try not to judge me by your less-than-adequately-informed standards.

As opposed to your adequately informed ones? The tone you use when you speak to others is sufficiently condescending to make clear your intent. 

After all, it's not my personal opinions or supposed 'righteousness' which is the issue in this discussion, rather it is God's requirements, clearly and unequivocally stated in Scripture. That you've failed to properly discern this important fact is simply further evidence that your underpinning theology, such as it is, is out of whack.

No maybe it is actually about the rude and condescending way you speak to others, like a bloody big revival centre know all. Perhaps if you spoke to others like they even approached your intelligence,  instead of mindless idiots, perhaps they would be more inclined to listen to what you have to say.

Again, are YOU fulfilling ALL God's requirements, daily? Until you are buddy, get off your soapbox.

I don't know if you are still a revival attendee of whatever ilk, but you sure as hell sound like one with that kind of reasoning. If you judge my theology out of whack, what of it? You are the judge, jury and executioner of the truth are you? Hope it pays well. Its a long time now since I have given a toss what other people think. My relationship with God is my business.

Didaktikon Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #31
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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:19/06/2009 12:55 AMCopy HTML

Galien,

If you can't attack the issues, attack the person, huh? Seriously, if you're incapable of engaging in debate, then perhaps you should just sit on the sidelines and watch? You might actually learn something.

Blessings,

Ian

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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:19/06/2009 1:06 AMCopy HTML

.... and I was waiting for the incest rebuttal to the consent issue. I don't think it is relevant: It is impossible to determine the level to which that consent exists... I never gave my consent to be dragged along to RCI meetings never-the-less it took 25 years to remove myself.... that I cant explain.

One's personal view is coloured by societal imposed norms but in the end consent or otherwise has to be down to the individual.


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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:19/06/2009 1:14 AMCopy HTML

Thommo,

.... and I was waiting for the incest rebuttal to the consent issue. I don't think it is relevant: It is impossible to determine the level to which that consent exists...

You don't think it's relevant, huh? Well that's very interesting, you see the concrete example that I gave: (1) addressed the false issue of consent (which was apparently the "lynch-pin" of your defence); (2) incest remains an aberrant sexual behaviour, one that's; (3) rejected by society, and (4) rejected by God.

In other words, it's perfectly relevant, and my pointing it out conclusively demonstrated the weaknesses and logical inconsistencies of your argument.

Blessings,

Ian

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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:19/06/2009 1:17 AMCopy HTML

Galien,

If you can't attack the issues, attack the person, huh? Seriously, if you're incapable of engaging in debate, then perhaps you should just sit on the sidelines and watch? You might actually learn something.


So does that advice actually come with a pat on my silly uninformed head? Not attacking Ian. Simply asking you to think about the way you speak to people.

If you believe the Bible is the ultimate authority on everything then there is no actual room for debate is there? Nothing anyone says will change your superior knowledge on the matter. Nothing anyone has said so far has met with any of your approval, or anything other than your condescending disdain.

How is that a debate? Its more like a forum for you to tell everyone how wrong they are.
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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:19/06/2009 1:23 AMCopy HTML

Galien,

You do know what's involved in debate, don't you?

We've been discussing a particular and topical issue. I've been setting forth (and successfully defending) a position that's based upon my presuppositions as a Christian. I've also been 
responding to the views of others, and I've pointed out the considerable weaknesses that are evident in their arguments, based as they are on their presuppositions. But unlike you, not once have I personally attacked another.

Think about it.

Ian

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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:19/06/2009 1:34 AMCopy HTML


You do know what's involved in debate, don't you? We've been discussing an issue. I've been setting forth (and successfully defending) a position that's based on my presuppositions.

Successfully? Your opinion, no one else's. Im sure even if no one did answer you, you would still continue to debate (?) the issue with yourself.

I've also been responding to the views of others, and pointing out the considerable weaknesses that are evident, based on their presuppositions. And, unlike you, not once have I personally attacked another.


Oh dear, compared to you the rest of us are just so...........inadequate.

Your entire tone attacks everyone you silly man.
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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:19/06/2009 1:36 AMCopy HTML

 I am not for 1 minute suggesting that incest is anything but aberrant sexual behaviour and it should be rejected by society and perpetrators should be prosecuted. My point, which you didn't address, is that the waters of consent, are muddied by the issue of psychological control by the perpertrator.

However, this is an abstraction from the main topic. I maintain that the right of same sex couples to marry should be discussed in an open forum free from religious dogma as has been the case in 7 countries to date where authorization has been judicially mandated but in some cases not YET legislated.


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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:19/06/2009 1:39 AMCopy HTML

Galien,

Having a "sook" because your feelings have been hurt, or your pride "wounded"? If you can't debate, then just retire gracefully (and graciously). Your emotional overreactions aren't likely to bolster your views.

Blessings,

Ian

email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:19/06/2009 1:47 AMCopy HTML

Thommo,

I am not for 1 minute suggesting that incest is anything but aberrant sexual behaviour and it should be rejected by society and perpetrators should be prosecuted. My point, which you didn't address, is that the waters of consent, are muddied by the issue of psychological control by the perpertrator.

But I did address the issue. In the example that I offered, which was a highly publicised case, the daughter and her father hadn't any sort of contact or relationship for the bulk of the daughter's life. They were, effectively, strangers. Consequently, there was no issue of "psychological control"; what they engaged in was completely consensual. My point stands.

However, this is an abstraction from the main topic. I maintain that the right of same sex couples to marry should be discussed in an open forum free from religious dogma as has been the case in 7 countries to date where authorization has been judicially mandated but in some cases not YET legislated.

But you've yet to successfully defend why such should be the case. Maintaining something is one thing, defending it, another. If you re-read each of your positions, and my responses to them, you'll see that I've addressed the inconsistencies of your views, and then from your own presuppositions. It simply won't do, to later state, "...this is an abstraction from the main topic."

Blessings,

Ian

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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:19/06/2009 2:11 AMCopy HTML

 Nor have you presented a categorical reason why same sex marriages should be banned as a point of law. You have simply thrown mud at it by lumping it in with the worst of human behaviours. The consent issue stands except in the case of genuine sicko's... and who determines who is or is not a genuine sicko? Not bible scholars!

 The Government now recognises defacto same-sex relationships the same as a marriage for the purposes of centrelink payments and the such like. Ergo: the formalising of the relationship (by marriage) is largely ceremonial... so why oppose it!


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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:19/06/2009 2:39 AMCopy HTML

"The Australian Government has introduced wide-ranging reforms that recognise all couples, regardless of the sexual orientation or gender of a partner. The reforms also recognises children living in same-sex families.

From 1 July 2009 changes to legislation will mean that customers who are in a same-sex de facto relationship will be recognised as partnered for Centrelink and Family Assistance Office purposes. All customers who are assessed as being a member of a couple will have their rate of payment calculated in the same way".

I don't think that the Govt is actually agreeing or disagreeing on the issue of defacto same sex relationships - what they ARE doing is ensuring that they make the correct payments to people that are 'couples' regardless of who they 'couple' with.

Urchin

Your unfailing love, O Lord, is as vast as the heavens; your faithfulness reaches beyond the clouds. Your righteousness is like the mighty mountains, your justice like the ocean depths.
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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:19/06/2009 3:09 AMCopy HTML

Reply to tommo (18/06/2009 19:36:51)
 I am not for 1 minute suggesting that incest is anything but aberrant sexual behaviour and it should be rejected by society and perpetrators should be prosecuted. My point, which you didn't address, is that the waters of consent, are muddied by the issue of psychological control by the perpertrator.

However, this is an abstraction from the main topic. I maintain that the right of same sex couples to marry should be discussed in an open forum free from religious dogma as has been the case in 7 countries to date where authorization has been judicially mandated but in some cases not YET legislated.



How is this for a cat amongst the pidgeons. What if, and this does occur, 2 adults of the same gender that are brothers or sisters get together. Does their right to be consenting homosexuals over ride the social problem of them having same parents. Maybe they could be same sex same parent couples.lol

¡uıɐƃɐ ʎɐqǝ ɯoɹɟ pɹɐoqʎǝʞ ɐ ƃuıʎnq ɹǝʌǝu
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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:19/06/2009 3:43 AMCopy HTML

Hi, Thommo.

Nor have you presented a categorical reason why same sex marriages should be banned as a point of law.

Re-read my posts (and your own) and you'll discover that at no point was that issue ever raised! As I very clearly indicated (several times, in fact), my position is based on a Christian perspective and not a legal one.

You have simply thrown mud at it by lumping it in with the worst of human behaviours.

'Nope', I simply used your reasoning and your logic processes, and then applied the principle of analogy to the issue (i.e. aberrant sexual behaviours).

The consent issue stands except in the case of genuine sicko's... and who determines who is or is not a genuine sicko? Not bible scholars!

Ah, the "exception that proves the rule", huh? Do remember that it was you who raised the issue of consent, I simply demonstrated that it doesn't actually support your contention.

The Government now recognises defacto same-sex relationships the same as a marriage for the purposes of centrelink payments and the such like. Ergo: the formalising of the relationship (by marriage) is largely ceremonial... so why oppose it!

And that was one of my very points in an earlier response to Dog! Homosexual couples receive all of the legal benefits that are available to married couples. So why push the barrow of "gay marriage" to begin with? Scroll back through the various posts and you'll find my comments about this SIG seeking cultural affirmation that their practice is normal. I oppose the idea because it stands contrary to God's expressly declared requirements, and as such, it isn't normal. But I'm a Christian, so meh?

Blessings,

Ian


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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:19/06/2009 4:12 AMCopy HTML


Having a "sook" because your feelings have been hurt, or your pride "wounded"?

You think this crap hurts my feelings or wounds me? Clearly you have never gone an hour in an enclosed space with a rabid pastor screaming at you that you are a son of Korah and the ground is about to open up and swallow you because you dared to question his illogical reasoning and truthfully told him he treated people like shit. 

If you can't debate, then just retire gracefully (and graciously). Your emotional overreactions aren't likely to bolster your views.

Bolster my views in what way? Give them credibility in your eyes? Once again your arrogant supposition is that you are the industry standard on reasoning, logic and balanced argument. I'm not going to suppress my emotions mate because you dont know how to deal with them. Have you actually ever had any of your own that are not connected with your supposed superiority?

If your underlying supposition is that the word of god is the complete authority on things homosexual, then wherein lies the debate? In your mind, clearly there isn't one.

If an individual does not believe in god or the bible as any kind of authority whatsoever, how then do your arguments hold any weight at all for those individuals, let alone the sucker punch you seem to think they carry?

In time gay everything will be accepted by society whether you and god like it or not.
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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:19/06/2009 4:36 AMCopy HTML

Galien,


The famous love verses as set out in Paul's epistle to the Corinthians are often quoted for various reasons and truly wonderful verses they are too.

The same author also wrote in Romans 1 about the effects and consequences of turning away from worshiping the creator.  Verses 26 and 27 point to one of the effects as being actions which are against God's natural order of creation.  It's worth reading the whole chapter.  Verses 28-32 probably contain the most extensive list of sins in all of Paul's writings.

Just merely passing on what Paul the Apostle has to say in other of his writings.

**********************************************************************************************

Yes they are wonderful, because they explain the reason for everything. To easily dismissed by revival types though as some sentimental fluff. I am fully aware of what the Bible says. Been devouring it for the last 40 years actually.

However, what I have learned about human beings is that they have this propensity for running off and doing whatever they jolly well please. What I would like to know is, how is constantly repeating to people what the bible says going to change their behaviour? It isn't. If people want to love God and follow his ways they will, if they dont believe in god they won't. Cross culturally only about 10% of any given cuture will seek the divine, whatever that means to them. What is the point of going over and over what the Bible says? WE already know it, inside out and upside down. It has been my constant companion for most of my life. I studied it at uni, in my bed, in my prayer closet, morning noon and night, but honestly after all these years now I have more questions than answers.

God and I have frequent quarrels. He always wins. I think he should be more hands on, he says its not my business. I say he promised me things and didnt deliver, he says so what, its his world. I say he should never have allowed me to be born into the human nature I hate then be condemned to hell because of it. He says I have given you a way out, take it.

Not only do I no longer have the answers for everything, I make sure I let go of one more answer every day. I am finally learning to let go of the need for control I had all those lost years. What I find with people now is, the more sure they are that they have all the answers, the more psychological treatment they usually need.

Amd for what it is worth I am a follower of Jesus, not Paul. Had I been in his actual airspace, there would have been trouble. Trust me.

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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:19/06/2009 4:36 AMCopy HTML

Galien, again.

I'm going to type very slowly this time, in the hope that you'll also read a little more slowly, so as to grasp what I've actually been saying.

And I'll begin by repeating a question that I asked of you earlier: you do know what's involved in a debate, don't you? In case you don't, it's this: a topic is chosen. Done. One side puts forward their thesis. Done. The other side seeks to rebut the thesis, and then offers a counter thesis. Done. Rebuttal then takes place. The winner is the one who best marshals his or her arguments, and who best demonstrates the weaknesses and internal inconsistencies in the positions of the opposing side(s). Injecting invective or undue emotion demonstrates that one isn't as capable of dispassionate and logical reasoning as is required in a debate.

Now you've made a lot of noise about being a Christian, the "Fruit of the Spirit", et cetera. But you've also made enough noise that pretty much causes one to consider whether you might actually be a hypocrite with respect to these afore-mentioned subjects. If you do lay claim to being a Christian, then what place does Christian Scripture play in moderating and/or influencing your beliefs? Or doesn't it?

Blessings,

Ian



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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:19/06/2009 4:46 AMCopy HTML




And I'll begin by repeating a question that I asked of you earlier: you do know what's involved in a debate, don't you? In case you don't, it's this: a topic is chosen. Done. One side puts forward their thesis. Done. The other side seeks to rebut the thesis, and then offers a counter thesis. Done. Rebuttal then takes place. The winner is the one who best marshals his or her arguments, and who best demonstrates the weaknesses and internal inconsistencies in the positions of the opposing side(s). Injecting invective or undue emotion demonstrates that one isn't as capable of dispassionate and logical reasoning as is required in a debate.

There needs to be a winner? Are you compensating for something?  Me dispassionate? HA! Im the most passionate girl you will ever meet.

So upon asking you why you expected people who don't believe in god to give any creedence to bible directives you did not answer me? Why was that?

Now you've made a lot of noise about being a Christian, the "Fruit of the Spirit", et cetera. But you've also made enough noise that pretty much causes one to consider whether you might actually be a hypocrite with respect to these afore-mentioned subjects.

You of course being the one who gets to make the well informed decision on that, considering you seem to consider youself the authority on everything.

If you do lay claim to being a Christian, then what place does Christian Scripture play in moderating and/or influencing your beliefs? Or doesn't it?

None of your damn business.  As if anyone would tell you anything that was precious to their heart after the way you have carried on.

I am sure I am not the first person who has said this to you, I certianly wont be the last.

Get your hand off it Ian.

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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:19/06/2009 5:01 AMCopy HTML

Galien,

*Sigh*. Clearly I both assumed and expected too much from you. Clearly you don't know what's involved in a debate.

This debate, by the way, hasn't been focussed towards providing a evangelical call to believe in the Christian God, or to accepting his ways; to convince non-believers that God is. What it has been, however, is a mutual testing of ideas and thought processes, an attempt to evaluate the logic and internal consistency of propositions and ideas. So in attempting to spray the barn with buckshot, you've altogether missed its side!

Anyway, your final comments have left me in no doubt whatsoever as to the sort of "Christianity" that you personally subscribe to. So please, save yourself further embarrassment by not responding in future, nor continuing to go off tilting at windmills that you think you may encounter here.

Blessings,

Ian 

email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:19/06/2009 5:35 AMCopy HTML

Ian,

*Sigh*. Such pride usually only comes before a VERY big fall. Trust me on that one. Been there done that. 

I'm not embarrassed, why should I be? Because I don't live up to your assumptions or expectations? Do you not know what happens when we assume Ian? This is a discussion forum, not the united nations.

You should have told me that you were the self appointed alpha asshole at the get go, we could have saved so much pussyfooting around.

Big kisses and hugs Ian
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Re:VOTE 'NO' TO SAME SEX MARRIAGE

Date Posted:19/06/2009 5:55 AMCopy HTML


No need for this now Galien.  I'm not being high handed at all here but you are getting a bit silly.

God Bless

Epi

 

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