( I want Biblical reasoning please!) - Okay, let's try that then. I'd be curious to see how people react to the following concepts.

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All I can say is like Paul, I glad that I speak in tounges more than you all

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Seems like a pretty arrogant statement from Paul to address 'everyone' at Corinth and make such a bold statement. Sounds really boastful. Perhaps it doesn't mean what Revival churches have said it means. If you don't mind I'd like to put forward another slant into the melting pot for those people who like to explore ideas.

I've heard it said that Paul could have been saying that he spoke in more languages than you all. That sort of information would be more likely to be made known if he was a man who talked to a lot of people of many dialects because as we know, many races and religions were gathered in Corinth. It was a major center of trade and commerce for many peoples from many countries.

The influx of other cultures and people gave the city a bit of a mess and deviations from the gospel Paul was setting up would have likely happened in his abscence. There were church members of varying skills too, from "called to be saints" and some who were "sanctified" and "babes in Christ." etc etc. It was a church in flux.

I hope you can excuse this 'cut&paste' essay, I've tried to paraphrased and culled it as much as possible to make for easier reading, without taking too much meat from the author's intentions. Find the whole text at http://wesley.nnu.edu/wesleyan_theology/theojrnl/06-10/08-6.htm

I Corinthians 1213

Here the text usually translated "spiritual gifts" is one word meaning "spirituals,". "Gifts" was first inserted in the King James Version and placed in italics, as they thought it necessary to affirm it's meaning. But Paul wrote of much more than can be brought under the concept of gifts, and so "spiritual matters" is a more accurate translation of Paul's expression pneumatikon.

Paul's concern was towards their understanding of true spirituality (12:1). They had been idol worshippers and are now Christian, but some of their actions are more pagan than Christian. Paul wrote, " They were still being "led astray to dumb idols," They had lapsed into a pagan ritual, being carried away in an ecstasy until they did not know what they were doing. Paul recognized what was happening. Having begun in the Spirit they were operating after a human fashion. This would seem to be the beginning of their speaking in unknown tongues.

This form of ecstatic speaking had become a stereotype, which they claimed was evidence of the presence of the Holy Spirit. Paul's immediate response was that the charisma of the Spirit takes many forms. There is always variety (12:4-6) seen in endowments of different kinds: "the utterance of wisdom," "the utterance of knowledge," "faith," "gifts of healing," "the working of miracles," "prophecy," "the ability to distinguish between spirits," "various kinds of tongues," "the interpretation of tongues" (12: 811). All this is done purposefully because God does not act aimlessly (12:7).

Paul extrapolated further:  there are "first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, then healers, helpers, administrators, speakers in various kinds of tongues" (12:28). Not everyone is gifted in the same manner and Paul exhorts the Corinthians to "earnestly desire the highest gifts" (12: 31). When the two concepts are brought together gifts and calling- we find Paul saying that God calls selected people to the services of the church and empowers them by His Spirit. In this way they become gifted prophets, teachers, and the like.

To Paul , the true gift of speaking in tongues must be similar to the other grace gifts - a natural ability to speak, developed and improved and lifted to a new level of effectiveness by the Spirit. Because the Holy Spirit does not ignore human talents nor supplant them by something that is magical or unintelligible, He accepts them when dedicated to Him and causes them to exceed their natural limits of service and effectiveness.

Speaking in "unknown" tongues, then, would not be a true charisma or gracegift of the Spirit. The Corinthian Christians were demonstrating what had doubtless begun as a work of the Spirit but which had slipped into an emotional pattern, more human than divine, and gone out of control.

The More Excellent Way

If ignorance, or immaturity, had been the besetting sin at Corinth, instruction was needed. Paul does this as a means of control and not as a cure... for they were motivated by their own spirit (14:2), emphasizing "unknown tongues" at the expense of the grace gifts. The true evidence of the Holy Spirit is to be found, not in ecstatic speech, but in allegiance to Jesus Christ as Lord (I Cor. 12:3) and in manifestations of agape, selfgiving love (I Cor. 13:47). This is why this great essay on love is dropped down in the midst of Paul's discussion of the excesses and aberrations of the Christian faith found in Corinth.

There is no indication that he considered speaking in "unknown tongues" as an overflow of the Spirit or an experience too sublime for normal expression. He emphasizes its failure to demonstrate spiritual maturity. It is a sign of spiritual childhood (14:20), and he calls the Corinthians "babes in Christ" and that they should become men (13:11). When the grace of God through the Holy Spirit touches a man's speech, it comes alive with meaning and effectiveness. It does not turn him inward upon himself, but outward toward others in love.

"Chapter 13, the great love chapter, was composed to meet the problem of 'tongues'. Love is the highest 'way' . . . Love is God's excellent and ultimate way. In contrast, tongues 'will cease' (v. 8). Love is God's endless highway; 'tongues' are a deadend street, leading nowhere."3 I Corinthians 14

St. Paul is not always uniform in his use of words. For instance, the same Greek word (pneuma) is used for the Holy Spirit, the human spirit, and for spirit having the connotation of a mood, quality or inclination. He also uses three different words which are translated "tongues" in most versions of the New Testament. They are dialekton, glossa and phonon. The second is used almost exclusively in the present chapter (14). The last is used to denote mere sound, while the other two are used to denote a language which is peculiar to a people and distinct from that of another. Wherever another meaning is intended it must be seen from the context. Thus glossa always means a language unless another meaning is signified. Paul indicated his meaning in the present usage by offering an analogy to the tongues at Corinth.

When a bugler blows an uncertain military call, the soldiers do not know whether to turn in for the night or fall in for battle (v. 8). From this we draw three premises: the speaking in tongues at Corinth was unintelligible (v. 13), it should not be supposed that glossa as Paul used it always means unknown tongues, and the purpose of speaking should always be communication. Whether in prayer or song (v. 15), praise (v. 17), or in public address (v. 27), one should make use of his mind as well as his inner spirit (v. 15) and it should be done for the purpose of mutual edification (v. 26).

Certain phrases in this chapter have become pillars of the doctrine and practice of unknown tongues. They are: "I want you all to speak in tongues" (v. 5); "If I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful" (v. 14); "I thank God that I speak in tongues more than you all" (v. 18). "Do not forbid speaking in tongues" (v. 39); "In the law it is written 'By men of strange tongues and by lips of foreigners will I speak to this people' " (v. 21).

That All Speak in Tongues

In what kind of tongues did Paul wish the Christians to speak? Certainly not the kind in which people cursed Christ, neither that which was demonstrated when no one was able to understand what was supposed to be said (14:2), and which the speakers themselves did not understand, because they were advised to pray for the ability to interpret or translate (14:13). Only God could understand them (14:2). Those who prophesied or preached encouraged and edifled the church, while the tongue speaking was consumed upon the speakers (14:34). It is quite evident that Paul wished his converts to use the kind of speech which could be understood.

Praying in the Spirit

Paul's reference to praying "in a tongue" (14:14) is taken by many as evidence that he prayed in a unknown tongue, and Romans 8:26 is used to support the concept that praying in the Spirit and praying in an unknown tongue are the same. But in the first instance Paul is speaking hypothetically, and in the second there is no reference to tongues whatsoever. He emphasized praying with the understanding as well as within one's spirit (14:15).

Did Paul Speak in Unknown Tongues?

"I thank God that I speak in tongues more than you all." This phrase follows closely upon the statement that, if one expresses his thanksgiving with meaningless emotions, the hearers aren't built up in the art of Christian praise. The exclusiveness of the Corinthian manner of religious expression (unknown tongues) made them feel superior to those who did not speak that way (14:36). And so Paul decided to boast a little for himself You speak in a tongue which no one can understand and are proud of yourselves; but I speak in languages more than all of you; and five words that I speak intelligently to instruct others is worth more than 10,000 words of what you utter unintelligibly for your own sakes.

Paul could say this because he spoke Hebrew, Greek, Latin and probably Aramaic. Also, he had communicated the gospel to multitudes more than all of them put together. And so to credit Paul with speaking in unknown tongues is quite out of keeping with what we know of him and his stress on intelligent speech and the moral and spiritual effects of the Spirit's work. Forbid Not to Speak in Tongues

Doubtless it was not always possible to ascertain in the Corinthian church whether a strange speech was a true language or not, because of the multilingual character of the changing congregation. To forbid all speaking except what the leaders could understand would have been unfair to visitors.

One summer night Louie and Mel set to over the issue of speaking in tongues, Louie arguing that this manifestation of the Spirit was to be sought earnestly, Mel holding that it was a miraculous gift given to the early church but not given by God today. I forget the Scripture verses each of them brought forward to defend his position, but I remember the pale faces, the throat-clearing, the anguished looks, as those two voices went back and forth, straining at the bit, giving no ground - the poisoned courtesy ("I think my brother is overlooking Paul's very clear message to the Corinthians?," "Perhaps my brother needs to take a closer look, a prayerful look, at this verse in Hebrews?") as the sun went down, neighbor children were called indoors, the neighbors turned out their lights, eleven o'clock came - they wouldn't stop!

"Perhaps," Grandpa offered, "it would be meet for us to pray for the Spirit to lead us," hoping to adjourn, but both Louie and Mel felt that the Spirit had led, that the Spirit had written the truth in big black letters - if only some people could see it.

The thought of Uncle Louie speaking in tongues was fascinating to me. Uncle Louie worked at the bank, he spoke to me mostly about thrift and hard work. What tongue would he speak? Spanish? French? Or would it sound like gibberish? Louie said that speaking in tongues was the true sign, that those who believed heard and to those who didn't it was only gabble - what if he stood up and said, "Feemalator, jasperator, hoo ha ha, Wamalamagamanama, zis boom bah!" and everyone else said, "Amen! That's right, brother! Praise God!" and I was the only one who said, "Huh?"
- Garrison Keillor, "Protestant," Lake Woebegon Days

For the last 20 years, between 7 and 9 percent of Americans have spoken in tongues - but almost the same percentage said the practice is evidence of demonic possession.
- Bernard Katz, "Quoteline and Commentaries," The American Rationalist, July/Aug. 1998

Michael Trofimov pleaded not guilty by reason of insanity in the murder of his father. Trofimov, who had recently joined a religious group, was found was his hands around his father's neck "speaking in tongues and screaming for God." His uncle said, "He was a good young man and then he started going to these [religious] meetings."
- Chuck Shepherd, John J. Kohut & Roland Sweet, More News of the Weird (1990)

True story: A young Pentecostal girl dared her girlfriend in church to shout out some nonsense syllables just to see if someone would stand up and "interpret the tongue." So the girl shouted, "coca-cola, coca-cola, coca-cola" and a church member promptly stood up and "interpreted the tongue" as a message from God.

Years later, I read that when the Coca-Cola company tried selling their brew in China, they discovered that the Chinese symbols that were pronounced, "Coca-Cola," meant literally, "Bite the wax tadpole." So maybe you can get a "message" out of "coca-cola, coca-cola, coca-cola," albeit a stuttering and meaningless one.
- Skip Church

As a former tongue-speaking Christian it wasn't the repetitive nature of many of the syllables I spoke that raised doubts. It was the fact that people in our group would sometimes "speak in tongues" a long time yet the "interpretation" could be quite brief. Or they would "speak in tongues" briefly and the "interpretation" came out long-winded. Folks who loved the King James Bible "interpreted tongues" in King James English, while those who loved other translations of the Bible delivered less Elizabethan-sounding "interpretations." And the messages received via this miraculous discourse were as trifling as the simplest cares and woes found in the Psalms with which everyone in the congregation was familiar - as if God didn't have anything more relevant or specific to say to us. Yet it seemed to me that if God was going to give people miraculous linguistic abilities, He'd have found far better uses to put them to.
- Skip Church

CONVERSATION ON THE "EX-TIAN" LISTSERV:
Rob Berry: I've heard that a trained listener can tell the difference between a New Yorker and a Southerner speaking in tongues, so the "tongues" spoken by an individual reflect the normal language of that individual. And a Japanese person speaking in tongues is not going to have any "L"s in their babbling.

David O. Miller: Actually this is true only for those Japanese who have never studied English. Those who have, consistantry have "L"s whele the "R"s berong and "R"s whele the "L"s berong. And that could totally change the meaning of the babbling couldn't it? Obviously, "uga-bali-raka-fulu" and "uga-bari-laka-furu" are two entirely different things, right?

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Reply to : franks ghost, Frankie,I said:I wouldn't if I were you. Your 'experience' would simply lead to the pouring of another faulty slab!

Actually Sott, I was reffering to Old Holborns experience not mine.

Oh and by the way the emoticon I chose represents my feeling toward you on this point.You'll get over it eventually

Blessings, Ian

Cool! That being the case, can I take it that you're going to dump the entire 'tongues' business and start preaching Christ?!

 

Oh I hate it when I do up a post and it heads off to cyber space. I come back to read your inevidable reponse and see that nothing materialised. yeh stuff happens, I know!!!!!

Last things first yeh I'm over it already.

As far as preaching Christ, I absolutely agree. For me tongues has it's place and if I or anyone wants to give that a place of prioriy then I can expect a benidiction no better than "you have become a tinkling brass or a sounding cymbal".

yes to explore the Grace, Mercy, Forgiveness, Love, Reconciliation and so much more has got to be the endeavour of any Church.

In another thread I mentioned the 9 gifts and you suggested that there were many more to be recognised. Can I ask that you please note them in the inevitable response.

ps. Please pray for us,

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Reply to : SOTT1Reply to :franks ghostFrankie,I said:I wouldn't if I were you. Your 'experience' would simply lead to the pouring of another faulty slab!Actually Sott, I was reffering to Old Holborns experience not mine. be worth seeingOh and by the way the emoticon I chose represents my feeling toward you on this point.You'll get over it eventually Blessings,IanCool! That being the case, can I take it that you're going to dump the entire 'tongues' business and start preaching Christ?!Oh I hate it when I do up a post and it heads off to cyber space. I come back to read your inevidable reponse and see that nothing materialised

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Dont know where to start thismorning, so much has happened overnight , (30 posts in my inbox) I hate this time difference, I'm always trying to catch up. I noticed you referred to 3-4 months since you joined us, and I remember my often sarcastic replys to your posts. But over the months I've seen a great change taking place,  Can it be that we are getting through to you,? I do hope and pray that we are, and that we've helped you to climb out of the box.

Living the enclosed and narrow, blinckered walk we all led, sure of our superiority, convinced everyone else was wrong, etc, fed on a diet of half truths, fables, and nonsense.for years on end, we've all had to go through a time of re-asessment, and re-evaluation. It's often hard to shake off that ingrained mindset, peculiar to these organisations. Takes time, and a willingness to be corrected, and to  listen to other points of view.together with a lot of prayer. You do seem to be coming more open to other possibilities, than you were at the beginning, I can see you are re-appraising, and I think  with the Lords help you 'll reach the right conclusions. Convincing others may prove more difficult though.

Anyway, enough preaching for now, I wish you well. By the way, dodgy foundations can be stengthened by "underpinning" Think about that!

God bless

Peter  

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Reply to : BrolgaThanks for this. sounds interesting. For me I would'nt say or suspect that all tongues have to be from demons or are just a human thing. I still believe (from experience) that there are really true tongues from God.

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"From experience"...? Ok, I'm keen. Let's talk about tongues and let's cut out the bullshit and be as completely honest as possible. Don't try to sell me anything, just tell it like you think it is.  

No agenda on my part here, I just want to know and explore what people really and truly think. Obviously anyone can open their mouths and make sounds that make absolutely no sense. Anyone with a sliver of a brain can understand that concept. But is it supernatural? Is it ever more that just wind and vibration of the vocal chords?

Is it an experience ? When you spoke in tongues, did it actually feel like a supernatural experience or were you just caught up in the emotion of the moment that made you felt like you belonged somewhere - or did you have a real electric touch from an unseen universe of power. Don't bullshit me with buzzwords like manifest and tangible - just tell it like you think it happened. Me, myself, I was mimicing the guy who was praying for me and in all my 17 years there never felt like the 'tongue' was anything more than practiced nonsense talk. Maybe I was fooling myself and never saved in the one's opinion. I want to explore that idea.

I promise not to attack or belittle anyone for telling me how they think it is. In fact, I'll respect some honest truth, as long as it is what you think is the best dang truth you can summon up from everything you know and believe to be true.

I"m sick of the atheist label already and am nowhere near finished working out my take on the universe. So tell me about God... I'm actually ready to listen (whether you're ready to believe me or not).

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Reply to : RescuethemReply to : BrolgaThanks for this. sounds interesting. For me I would'nt say or suspect that all tongues have to be from demons or are just a human thing. I still believe (from experience) that there are really true tongues from God."From experience"...?Ok, I'm keen. Let's talk about tongues and let's cut out the bullshit and be as completelyhonest as possible. Don't try to sell me anything, just tell it likeyou think it is. No agenda on my part here, I just want to know and explore what people really and truly think. Obviously anyone can open their mouths and make sounds that make absolutely no sense. Anyone with a sliver of a brain can understand that concept. But is it supernatural? Is it ever more that just w

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Moth... I'll tell you of my experience when I spoke in tongues...

Is it an experience ? When you spoke in tongues, did it actually feel like a supernatural experience or were you just caught up in the emotion of the moment that made you felt like you belonged somewhere - or did you have a real electric touch from an unseen universe of power. Don't bullshit me with buzzwords like manifest and tangible - just tell it like you think it happened.

I was in a lounge room praying with my best mate... Keeping in mind that I knew nothing of the bible except the salvation scriptures that the RF/RCI etc preached...I sat there praying fervently for the Holy Spirit. NOT tongues. I had this overwhelming feeling come over me. Like a hole was in the top of my head and this smooth feeling of what felt like oil being poured inside of me and all the 'evil' that I'd committed ( by 'christian' standards mind you! ) was being flushed right out of me through my feet. I spoke in a very fluent new tongue. It wasn't psychosematic. As we were driving back home, the other people were talking in the car about what a great night it had been. I was completely silent. Numb by my experience. As cars drove by us, all I could see were skeletons driving. You may laugh at this but it's true. It kinda freaked me out! Like I said, I knew nothing of scripture.. but my 'revelation' for want of a better word, was that the people driving past me were alive but 'dead'. Alive in the flesh, but 'dead' in the spirit. Despite the anti organisation stance I have now, I cannot, nor ever will dispute or deny what happened to me. You wanted to hear our experiences so there ya have it! lol... Well, at least MY experience anyways.

Regards... Bindi

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I for one, think I have done a fair investigation into tongues from the wealth of information available. My conclusion is that thePentecost and the other references in Acts, is a perculiar one off event for that time tofulfillold testamentprochecy and promises and have left an indelible markin history at the ushering in of abetter and everlasting covenant through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.The tongues and interpretation spoken about in Corinthians had their part in the building up of the early church and I cannot see in this day and age how they are any benefitthe same way, as we now have a written reference (Bible) to reveal the Lord's will for us.As for the use of tongues in prayer, is used as a mantra, to keep one's mind focused on the things of th

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I must say I'm scared of the word 'conclusions' but I'm told that sitting on the fence too long leaves you with a bottom line. Who knows what that will be?

I can see how it may be have been a temoral linguistic help for that time only (Jesus did plenty of miracles that were a once only) but I'm not sure if there's a direct correlation with tongues as a prophecy. The Isaiah stammering example and the Joel stuff doesn't quite match up with how we were once led to believe (see previous threads).

Tongues as a meditatory mantra? I suppose making verbal repititions whilst praying helped me from falling asleep, but I also found it annoying to have to keep blah blahing away in prayer, especially when I had a sore throat. Hmm, yeah... I suppose a lot of religions find value in making sounds during meditation sessions. Humm-munna-padmeo, humm-munna-padmeo or Krishna krishna...

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Numb by my experience. As cars drove by us, all I could see were skeletons driving. You may laugh at this but it's true.

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I'm not laughing but these sort of statements are the sort of thing I'm trying to ignore unless you actually 100 percent completely believe that your optical receptors were actually taking in, not the normal light refracted off other humans in cars driving by, but actually were seeing (as far as your brain was concerned) bone coloured unflesh covered skeletons driving by you.

Now remember, no bullshit, I can smell it a mile away, and we're going for complete and utter raw freaking honesty here. Did you see skeletons or is that an overly dramatic recreation of how you perceived the unsaved masses. 

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even though it came quite naturally, I never felt it was a supernatural thing or had any spiritual or emotional connection. All wierd stuff, hey!

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Thanks guys. Yep I can relate tongues with not being a supernatural feeling.

This warm feeling people speak about that fills them up? That's nice, but it's not a selling point. I get that intense feeling at a particular moment when I'm listening to my favourite Bruce Springsteen album.

Every second person I talk to can tell me either a ghost story or the time they saw a UFO. I'm told that our minds have an amazing ability to hallucinate, but (outside of subconscious dreams and nightmares) I've never experienced it, nor do I give andy credit to hypnosis or the like. It's hard to take the word of other people. I've spoken to enough schizos to realise that people can truly be off kilter.

Sometimes I feel ripped off that I never saw a ghost, or a min min light, or a vision, or a driving skeleton. It'd certainly change my opinion of the universe. It's probably like looking for a falling star... every time I turn my head I miss it. Maybe I'm one of the faithful few who don't need to have put my fingers in the nail holes. Or, unexcitedly, there's nothing truly miraculous in the world outside of a good green curry.

I'm still evaluating my experience, which I outlined a while ago in another thread when speaking with SOTT. To summarise:I felt a change from knowing about God, to what I perceived as knowing God - the old difference between reading about a place and actually visiting a place type of thing. To add: I also felt in my 'gut', probably what the East call my 'chi', something powerful that I can't quite describe. I liken it to "living water flowing out of my innermost being' (Jn 7:38), though I'm probably taking that completely out of context. It happens now when I feel I'm in communion with God, and yes I realise this is subjective, though I suspect a CAT scan or similar could show certain parts of my physiology working differently from normal.  Also to add: my tongue was 'stammering'  initially in the sense of needing to conciously focus on God, and 'let myself go", so you could argue that it was learned. (I first spoke in tongues about 20 min after being baptised at the first Pentecostal meeting I'd ever been to - RCA, Melbourne, Rialto Theatre.)

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I"m sick of the atheist label already and am nowhere near finished working out my take on the universe. So tell me about God... I'm actually ready to listen (whether you're ready to believe me or not).

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As well as Ravi Zacharias, it would be worth checking out Norm Geissler's work. He's a Christian philosopher.

Also, have you heard that Antony Flew, once an avid atheist, now seems to consider himself more of a Spinozan deist?

http://www.illustramedia.com/IDArticles/flew-interview.pdf

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Reply to : bindiNumb by my experience. As cars drove by us, all I could see were skeletons driving. You may laugh at this but it's true.I'm not laughing but these sort of statements are the sort of thing I'm trying to ignore unless you actually 100 percent completely believe that your optical receptors were actually taking in, not the normallight refracted off other humans in cars driving by, but actually were seeing (as far as your brain was concerned) bone coloured unflesh covered skeletons drivingby you.Now remember, no bullshit, I can smell it a mile away, and we're going for complete and utter raw freaking honesty here. Did you see skeletons or is that an overly dramatic recreation of how you perceived the unsaved masses.

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Moth....

I'm not laughing ......

Well thanks for that.

but these sort of statements are the sort of thing I'm trying to ignore .......

Ok, so why did you request for people to tell you of their experiences? I told you mine and its your choice as to whether you want to acknowledge it or not.

....unless you actually 100 percent completely believe that your optical receptors were actually taking in, not the normallight refracted off other humans in cars driving by, but actually were seeing (as far as your brain was concerned) bone coloured unflesh covered skeletons driving by you.......

To answer your question.. No, I did not see literal skeletons. I didn't realize I had be so specific in my explaination. I thought in your wisdom you'd understand what I mean't.  OK.. I'll explain it further. It was more like a revelation. I looked at the people driving by and they... shit its so hard to explain it. Guess you have to experience it to know what I'm getting at. However.. I will endevour too. I looked at the people and they 'appeared' to be skeletons. It was kind of a transparency. I saw their flesh but could 'see' their bones. They were alive ( natural-flesh ) but dead ( spiritually-bones ) I really don't know how to put it into words. Sorry. I hope you can understand what I'm trying to say.

Now remember, no bullshit..... I can smell it a mile away, and we're going for complete and utter raw freaking honesty here.

A little info about my character ok? I don't bullshit. I tell it how it is. I'm being totally and completely honest in what I'm saying. Do you really think I'd put it all out there at the risk of getting the piss taken out of me just for the sake of it? Absolutely not I can assure you.

 Did you see skeletons or is that an overly dramatic recreation of how you perceived the unsaved masses......

Once again... Not literal skeletons but a revelation type 'vision' for want of a better term. 

Bindi

I went to my first Rev meeting in 1983 which was a concert-type thing and heard a song about the ten virgins and how they had let their oil run out - it was quite good and I really thought about the words of the song which was upbeat and offbeat (if you know S & Z you'll understand). I got absolutely nothing out of the talk but when prayer time came, I went out & asked God what He wanted of me & what I needed to do to know Him. (hadn't attended church since a kid but sorta 'believed') I opened my mouth to pray but out came a muttering that I didn't understand and certainly wasn't 'groomed' to speak. I was instantly, totally healed of drug addiction and many other things. I did not have a 'fluent' tongue but I would pray in tongues over the next 24 yrs and 'enjoy' it without feeling particularly closer to God for doing so.

To cut the next 24 years short, I cruised along in my limited 'RF' world, not really understanding about having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. I honestly and truly believed what I heard each week (for 20 or so years anyway) from the platform - that it was all about the 1-2-3  i.e. "be baptised by full immersion, 'receive' the Holy Spirit and speak in tongues & walk on".  Now I understand that we really only learnt from RF what 'they' knew and therefore could impart to us - they did not know about 'relationship' or 'revelation' or even the true person of Jesus Christ. They worshipped the 'sign' but forgot the saviour.  I began to question in my head & heart the rules & regs, the behaviour of certain oversight, the mistreatment/abuse of people, the hypocrisy, why there was so much control, bullying & fear etc.

Finally, over the last year or so, my husband & I began to see things very differently and to understand that there was so much more that God could do in our lives but did not know that we had any options but to attend RF - we were told constantly in Adelaide (weekly) that we must avoid the 'pentecostal' churches & anything that sounds slightly 'enthusiastic' to do with God as it was all 'extreme' & we had to 'stay in the middle of the ship' where the oversight keep us safe. I started to think, but Jesus called Peter out of the boat to come to Him and told him to trust and rely on Him - WHY?  I began to question everything and to not rely solely on the talks to build me up (I was obviously slack in this area) but to read the scriptures for myself. There were quite a few other people who were also thinking outside the box and we all got together to discuss scriptures that we were finding and to pray in tongues and in English. We prayed for not just revelation for us, but for the oversight to have the same revelation that we were having. Eventually the oversight heard that this was occurring and some of the blokes were threatened with being ?put out' for holding 'unauthorised' prayer meetings. Paranoia was setting in big-time and we were suspected of  'plotting' against them (we were praying FOR them and for a great awakening of the church in general - every Sunday arvo all I could see were people nodding off and no enthusiasm in the meetings at all) 

An RF pastor said earlier this year that there were 'spot fires' breaking out in Adelaide but he would ensure that they were put out - little did he know that they were not spot fires but the fire of the Holy Ghost waking many up from their slumber and empowering many to 'step out' of a church that had long since lost the plot.  (Part 2 to follow)

You asked for honesty Moth, and this is total honesty and exactly what I have experienced - if you  don't want to hear 'Part 2' let me know, otherwise I will continue later.

Urch

Reply to Moth, ( I cant believe I am writing this )

There is certainly a lot of "skeletons "coming out of the closet here, in any event, the bindi skeletons is something the Lord did for her,  It may not suit everyone, as we are all obviously different . God did it because that would have been a big positive influence for her, I wasnt 100 percent convinced when I spoke initally in tongues so following some advice I asked the Lord for "another experience" this happened, what it was doesnt matter, but like the skeletons it convinced me, and "cemented " the  the Holy Spirit experience. Now moth its your turn, ask Him, you know ,the big guy Up there. He will do something for you.

regards

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Now moth its your turn, ask Him, you know ,the big guy Up there. He will do something for you.regards

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(edit) (edit).. thanks Charty but prease refrain from telling me what you think I should be doing. I'm not seeking a celestial sky daddy to find and hug and I don't believe I'm going to get any answers by talking into the sky or where-ever you think God roams. I'm simply wanting to entertain the thought that there is perhaps something actually supernatural behind people's conversion stories. I'd also like to explore what people fully believe are their own realities... they all differ somewhat, as you say, but I'd rather not bury my head in the sand and label everyone crazy.

I'm  asking you to tell your story as brutally honest as possible (without preaching how you think others should respond to it) and feel free to include all the visions you believed you saw. I'm not sure I want to become an complete atheist and waste all my time 'preaching' that only to spend my life chasing the unicorn's tail, without opening up to possibilities.

I'm gonna have to stop being lazy and read some actual intelligently books, goddamit, and get some opinions of people who have no relation to Revivalist thinking. Philosophy, science, theology... who has the time to sort out the mysteries of the universe? If I die before I get a handle on it, then so be it. I'll either fade into dark non-existance or ask the Omnipresent Moderator himself.

reply to Moth,

Okay here is some info , just before I came to the Lord, a metal hills hoist rotating clothsline,started rotating without any wind blowing, and with no clothes on it, that was the first gravity defying experience I had had . It made me think God was getting close. After coming to the Lord, I was witnessing to a guy, and he said "why doesnt "the Lord zap down, ", it was in an office, and then the phone rang, and within a minute of him asking this , a record book metal trolley, on wheels, approx 1 metre by 600 mils, and weighing about 50 kilograms holding 40 record books suddenly turned completely upside down. He was stunned, but when I said to him his request was answered by God, he shut up for 6 months, but then came to the Lord. My own experience was to be, to feel how it is to be taken up in the air, this is one very fast experience, no time to feel fear, as it is so quick, your up there before you can think, I also saw " with my eyes only" which meant functioning just as we are now, but you dont have a physical body, another brother was giving his testimony on how God talked to him, at the r/f, this was in relation as to how he landed a plane in difficult circumstances, and he said to himself wow I did that, a voice from God then said no, you didnt do that, I did. The r/f folk scoffed at that, so the spirit didnt talk to him for years, until he left the r/f. God now talks to him, such as Go witness to that guy, or other events.

Reply to : bindi

but these sort of statements are the sort of thing I'm trying to ignore .......

Ok, so why did you request for people to tell you of their experiences? I told you mine and its your choice as to whether you want to acknowledge it or not.

I said  "I'm trying to ignore unless you actually 100 percent completely believe"... so yep, I do appreciate you sharing your story. I'm just trying not to focus on 'feelings' people have. I actually thought you were being literal because you said, "You may laugh at this but it's true. It kinda freaked me out!"

....unless you actually 100 percent completely believe that your optical receptors were actually taking in, not the normallight refracted off other humans in cars driving by, but actually were seeing (as far as your brain was concerned) bone coloured unflesh covered skeletons driving by you.......

However.. I will endevour too. I looked at the people and they 'appeared' to be skeletons. It was kind of a transparency. I saw their flesh but could 'see' their bones. They were alive ( natural-flesh ) but dead ( spiritually-bones ) I really don't know how to put it into words. Sorry. I hope you can understand what I'm trying to say.

Yes, I can relate. I also had some overly metaphorical anologies that I attached to how I percieved people who hadn't attained the enlightenment I was so 'lucky' to have recieved. I suppose life is a succession of epiphanies and it's hard not to overly romanticise them.

A little info about my character ok? I don't bullshit. I tell it how it is. I'm being totally and completely honest in what I'm saying. Do you really think I'd put it all out there at the risk of getting the piss taken out of me just for the sake of it? Absolutely not I can assure you.

No, I know it sounds like another social experiment but I'm trying to strip away all the pretense and work out what I actually believe or want to believe and I'd like to hear what others believe about tongues and supernaturality. I'm not wanting to take the piss... I'm actually being kinda vulnerable here without the tiring competitiveness that usually dovetails into theological arguments.

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I'm actually being kinda vulnerable here without the tiring competitiveness that usually dovetails into theological arguments.

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I admire your admission of vulnerablility and know that you will consider people's responses without ridiculing them and putting them down. I understand that you really are genuine and are maybe re-evaluating a few things - we all do that at times and it is not a bad thing to do. I would hate to go back to what I have 'gone along with' for the last 24 years - I now want to evaluate my thoughts & beliefs and 'update' wherever & whenever I need to.

S Urch

Wow Moth what a topic,

For me my intial experience with God/the holy spirit was tounges as a 9 year old, i remember it reasonably well, proberly more my baptisim though as a real peaceful feeling comming over me.

My first "gift" of tounges was very powerful, just really felt the presence of God all over me like a rush of heat and then burst out (unintentionally) in tounges. (sorry moth dont want this to become a tounges thing)

I guess though my major "thing " with God was just befor I left the rev fellowship, I was watching hillsong one day at home (in secreat) and my 3 boys where making a lot of noise and really P******* me off (not very xtian i know) any way I lost it (on the inside) and really regreated ever having them they ruined my life blah blah blah, i straight away felt convicted and went into my bedroom and shared with my wife what I had just thought and asked for her to join me in prayer, we did this, so here I was sitting on my bed yadda yadda yadda in tounges and praying to God to please bring love peace joy into the house, blah blah blah, I stopped in my thoughts and said God bring all that into this house (ie my body/soul/mind whatever you want to call it) and there was an immediatte result I just felt like this rush of heat, power, and amazing precence of God all over and through me, I was away shaking laughing crying for about 40 minutes, stopped wife and kid's a bit freaked out asked what happend and as I opened my mouth I was off again for another 20 plus minutes. Moth I didnt know what was happening but I felt renewed revitalised in my relationship with God, my wife said afterwards that it was like i was born again, again. For the next couple of years most nights as my head hit the pillow this whole thing would happen to me, God would talk with me (nothing deep and meaningful to most) but stuff for me to deal with in my life(ongoing by the way)

I later found out about "toronto" compared notes and very similar, know I know most people dont agree/understand this thing, however remember I had never even heard of toronto, and i was in my bedroom seeking God and this is what happened. This totally turned my life upside down. I grew more in my relationship with God in that short space of time that in the previous 37 years in the rev ctr. It lead me to move on from the rev ctr as I knew straight away that they would not agree with what happend to me.

I have learnt to "hear" from God since then, not a voice but an inner thought whatever you may call it, i ask questions he answers usually short and sweet and to the point.

Moth that was the start and the reason for my journey from the rev ctr,s this IS what happend to me no bulls**t no lies. There are other things I could go over with you of experiences that I know that has happend to myself and others but would like to do that face to face one day, next time i am in Moranbah and we can have a coffee if time allows.

earth5

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Wow Moth what a topic,

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WOW earthy, what an experience  -  thanks so much for sharing it with us! 

I am discovering more and more each day about the various experiences one may have. The initial experience of speaking in tongues was good at the time for me but since leaving RF 24 yrs later, I am experiencing more, living more, loving God more, growing more and LOVING it !! Last night a whole group of us got together & watched a John Bevere DVD called "Intimacy with the Holy Spirit" (we watched the 2nd one first) and were all blown away by it. We had an absolutely awesome time of prayer after with some of us being prompted by the Holy Ghost to speak out and we all prayed in tongues - but NOTHING like the old RF prayer time, believe me!

I look forward to all that God has in store for me and pray His blessings on all of us!

S Urch

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Love John Bevere, had the pleasure of having him preach in our church when we lived in NZ often. Has written some GREAT books of which i can recomend every one, always challanging.

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Howdy earthman,

I've just started reading a book of his called 'Driven by Eternity'  and a friend of ours has a few of his DVD's which we are watching as a group (the Woodcroft rebels) every week.  He will be at Hillsong conference in July as well as heaps of other speakers & we are all going as a group and just can't wait.  I feel I've got lots of 'catching up' to do re the things of the Lord.  Lots of 'unlearning' and instead learning to be led by the Spirit.  We are seeing some awesome miracles at the moment and the more we experience the more uplifted we become.

Urch

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My first "gift" of tounges was very powerful, just really felt the presence of God all over me like a rush of heat and then burst out (unintentionally) in tounges. (sorry moth dont want this to become a tounges thing)

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No, that's great... the thread is primarily about tongues, but from what I'm reading, the tongues is mostly an afterbirth (placenta?), and I am thinking that it is perhaps an emotional release, much like 40 minutes of crying, laughing and shaking was a release of emotions for you. I had that happen to me after coming home from seeing Star Wars III. Umm, I know how that sounds, but the movie seemed to unleash some primal emotions in me... long story. I'm actually softening to the idea of God, and can see the attraction. Maybe to make peace with god is to make peace with self? To bring about balance by conversing with an ideal of perfection? I dunno. However that manifests itself nn someone's life can't be a bad thing surely.

I would love to believe in god again. I would love some affirmation that everything is going to be alright and that what I've done so far has been part of a grand plan - that I don't have to kick myself for making mistakes. Even to pretend I may or do is kind of relieving.

I know one thing. I'm thinking that RescueMe is right. Something is wrong with me and I am thinking too much and I need to shut up and be still for a while.

Selah a bit methinks

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 "I" am now questioning my experiences. After reading your posts and analysis on things Moth, I find myself asking....Was it a mind thing? Did I want the Holy Spirit So bad that "I"  somehow unwittingly conjoured up these things/experiences in my mind??? The mind itself is a powerful thing! To quote Albert Einstien... " We only use 10% of our brains.."What the hell happens with the other 90%????

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Thanks Bindi I appreciate it, you're keeping me sane knowing that others conjur these things in their heads too... and I often think it's greedy of me to throw so much out into the NetherWeb to constantly bounce ideas and almost demand responses from you all. Telling the truth as you know it can be a dangerous thing, but I love the concept of the liberation that comes from it. It's the difference between print and real words.

I try to do this in ex-christian websites but they are primarily for people who want to take sides or sell their god. This forum is unique in some ways, as it isn't about being ex-christian, just ex-particular-institutionalism.

Interesting that you mentioned the 10% of the brain concept. Brain science has come a long way since that theory was passed around. Perhaps many of us don't reach the full 100% potential of what we could if we didn't put our full mind to it.

The Ten percent myth

The origins of the myth are not at all clear. Beyerstein, of the Brain Behaviour Laboratory at Simon Fraser University in British Columbia, has traced it back to at least the early part of the century. A recent column in New Scientist magazine also suggested various roots, including Albert Einstein and Dale Carnegie (Brain Drain 1999). It likely has a number of sources, principally misunderstood or misinterpreted legitimate scientific findings as well as self-help gurus.

It is past time to put this myth to rest, although if it has survived at least a century so far, it will surely live on into the new millennium. Perhaps the best way to combat this chestnut is to reply to the speaker, when the myth is mentioned, "Oh? What part don't you use?"

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Reply to : earth5My first "gift" of tounges was very powerful, just really felt the presence of God all over me like a rush of heat and then burst out (unintentionally) in tounges. (sorry moth dont want this to become a tounges thing)No, that's great... the thread is primarily about tongues, but from what I'm reading, the tongues is mostly an afterbirth (placenta?), and I am thinking that it is perhaps an emotional release, much like 40 minutes of crying, laughing and shaking was a release of emotions for you. I had that happen to me after coming home from seeing Star Wars III. Umm, I know how that sounds, but the movie seemed to unleash some primal emotions in me... long story. I'm actually softening to the idea of God, and can see the attraction. Maybe to make peace

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Actually, I'm wondering if there is a right or a wrong, should we just seek to be unique?

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Hey Mothnostic, we are definitely all unique - some being more unique than others LOL

I am more than happy to tell of all of my experiences but am afraid it would take up too much room/time - not to mention the fact that I'm meant to be working!!  I'll post Part 2 during my lunch break today all going well. You are a fantastic person Moth, and I would love to see you happy with whatever you choose to believe (or not believe) and to at least search things out. This is always a positive step (notice I didn't say 'a step in the right direction' - cos your direction may not be my direction, but that's cool too)

Maybe you could answer something for me?  What do atheists do when confronted with a catastrophic situation e.g. the little girl Maddi that was kidnapped from her hotel room in Portugal recently - do they trust in the police? do they hope that the kidnapper returns her? do they trust in the huge amount of people that are offering rewards?  do they hope that the reporters will somehow help? As Christians, we have a hope and a trust in God when something catastrophic happens to us - we know beyond a shadow of a doubt that God will come through for us. We pray, believing that He already has the situation in hand and know that we can be comforted by this. I know this because I have been through some situations myself but I always put my trust in God and He ALWAYS honours that trust.  So, my question is, what does one do if one has no belief in God or in some 'higher power' ?

Love, Urch

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Reply to : RescuethemIt's not meant to exclude him, but it would be good if one ask a question and would like to see answers that this personwould not judge the stories in right or wrong etc. . That's what I would like to express.Well this person.. me - I've been carefully avoiding calling the stories right or wrong, so far. I'm saying that maybe I don't know if it's right or wrong but let's put it all out on the table and see if we can get any patterns emerging. See if 'we' can make any sense of it and be content if we don't all see eye to eye.Actually, I'm wondering if there is a right or a wrong, should we justseekto beunique?

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I've been carefully avoiding calling the stories right or wrong so far,...

You're right in doing so as I don't feel we really can say whats 'right' and whats 'wrong'. Each and everyones experience is 'right' in their eyes. Having said that... some can be 'catagorized' after analysis from each of us.

 I'm saying that maybe I don't know if it's right or wrong but let's put it all out on the table and see if we can get any patterns emerging......

Its been great reading through everyones unique experiences! Amazing! There is a small pattern starting to emerge already I feel. There are those that speak of experiences that eventually led them to God that don't really seem to have any significant 'scriptual revelation' attached to them. IE: The spinning clothes line. Is an experience like that from God?? Don't misunderstand me here, I'm not taking the mick, I'm just trying to evalute in my own little mind what indeed could be from God and what may of been brought on by another force. IE: Our brilliant minds or some other external force. What kind of message is He trying to get through by spinning a clothes line? What is the 'scriptual' revelation to be gained from such an act? These are not rhetorical questions here so please feel free to comment.

Then there are those that have had experiences after they decided to follow God. Experiences that hold some kind of significance scriptually. Like my now infamous 'driving skeletons'! Haha! As I mentioned, the 'revelation' of that to me was that although we alive in the flesh, we are 'dead' spiritually without Him. And Dogs 'revelation' of the temporal world.  Maybe from God?  I don't know... It's just my own thoughts. Anyone care to comment??

See if 'we' can make any sense of it and be content if we don't all see eye to eye.

Looking forward to it but we need more people to share! Keep the posts coming!

Happy analyzing!... Bindi

Maybe you could answer something for me?  What do atheists do when confronted with a catastrophic situation e.g. the little girl Maddi that was kidnapped from her hotel room in Portugal recently - do they trust in the police?

I don't want to stray to far from the topic, but if you want further details from me please start up a thread in the 'bible and beliefs' room or such. But Yes, I'd put my trust in police in as much as I'd put trust in fire fighters to hose down my house as best they can. They've the experience, training and I know they exist because they aren't invisible.

I know this because I have been through some situations myself but I always put my trust in God and He ALWAYS honours that trust.  So, my question is, what does one do if one has no belief in God or in some 'higher power' ?

God has answered every prayer you've put to him? Ten out of ten for your god! With that sort of track record perhaps you should stick with it hey?

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 IE: The spinning clothes line. Is an experience like that from God?? Don't misunderstand me here, I'm not taking the mick, I'm just trying to evalute in my own little mind what indeed could be from God and what may of been brought on by another force. IE: Our brilliant minds or some other external force. What kind of message is He trying to get through by spinning a clothes line? What is the 'scriptual' revelation to be gained from such an act?

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Doesn't the bible discourage those that would seek after a sign...

testing and temping god with 'move the curtain' or 'bend the spoon' or wait for a falling star. I've got some experience working with probability and some random occurances will happen and will seem miraculous... eg, waiting for a falling star is not a sign to go to church (yes, I've known of people who have made such life choices by counting falling stars or even... casting lots).

Didn't Jesus say after Thomas poked his holes that blessed are those that don't have to rely on such proofs?

Reply to : Sea Urchin

As Christians, we have a hope and a trust in God when something catastrophic happens to us - we know beyond a shadow of a doubt that God will come through for us.

But he doesn't always come through... I suppose it depends on how you interpret the outcome or how 'things come through'. If you don't end up in a coffin, then I guess you've made it through. With respect, and to answer part of your original question to me, atheists may challenge you to pray to your cat, or shoe, or dishwasher... pray with all your heart believing they will answer. Hold them to the same standard you hold god to in regards to answered prayers... you may find out that your cat, shoes, and dishwasher also have supernatural powers!! My Invisible Pink Unicorn also has got me through all my catastropic things. The IPU, and my own intellect, and the help of friends etc.

Unfortunately for amputees, god is resoundingly silent and never heals... but even the Christian amputees (the ones also aren't in coffins) who make it through their trials and grief will give god credit for getting them through the hard times. After leaving church I discovered I still got through the hard times, I still had all the same power, peace, forgiveness and love! In fact, the peace was considerably more for me.

Yes, I fully intend to 'stick with it' - why are you seeming to be getting a little defensive Moth?

Defensive? That's part of my nature I suppose. I was responding during a quick afternoon smoko, so I didn't get time to frame my response sensitively. Sometimes you get the moth, other times the rust eh? I think I was responding instinctively to the sort of questions I've read countless times in atheist forums and blogs. This crazy idea that an atheist's life has less quality because they don't have a god to thank when things 'hoped for' go their way... or a god to be confused about yet humbly submissive to when things 'hoped for' (or prayed for) don't work out.

I merely asked the question about atheists' faith as something that you may be able to answer for me

Only too happy to try... I have been trying to avoid turning this into a chat about my beliefs, that's all. I've was only an atheist for a few weeks but I'll try to answer the question less defensively. I really hate any sort of belief labelling, to be honest. Agnosticism is orthogonal to theistic belief. You can be agnostic and Christian, or agnostic and atheistic, or agnostic and undecided, etc. Agnostic just means you believe that the answer cannot be determined. For example, I am currently both agnostic (don't believe the answer can be determined), and atheist (do not believe in the concept of God). Penn Jillette (Penn & Teller) put it (slightly paraphrased, from memory): "Once you choose agnosticism, you still have to choose atheism or theism."

Remember I was a churched Christian for thirty odd years so I'm still shaking off the various mindsets I've had programmed in. If you're genuinely interested in how atheists in general feel about trust and hope and faith etc, I can post some links. They're not all in the one box, of course, and have as many and varied perceptions as Christians do, or as white people do, or Scottish people etc.

 - I certainly didn't mean to offend you or upset you in any way. 

I don't think anything that could be said here would 'upset' me and I don't think I felt offended. I just react in various ways depending on how big a headache I've got or how hungry I am.

Peace, man

...And also to you... (ha, I remember in the Catholic church, we used to have a moment in the mass where Father Dude would say "peace be with you" and we'd all say "and also to you", and then we'd have to turn around and say it to all the people in our vicinity. And all the poeple said...

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With respect and to answer part of your original question,atheists may challenge you to pray to your cat, or shoe, or dishwasher... pray with all your heart believing they will answer. Hold them to the same standard you hold god to in regards to answer prayers... you'll find out that your cat, shoes, and dishwasher also have supernatural powers!!

Peace man...And also to you... (ha, I remember in the Catholic church, we used to have a moment in the mass where Father Dude would say "peace be with you" and we'd all say "and also to you", and then we'd have to turn around and say it to all the people in our vicinity. And all the poeple said...

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At the end of the day Moth, you can continue praying to your invisible pink unicorn and I'll keep praying to my awesome God - and no, I won't pray to my cat/shoe/dishwasher cos no matter how much I might want to believe they will answer me - they won't!   Because of the fact that I have a relationship with my God I can communicate regularly with Him.  No-one is asking you to believe in Him so don't get your knickers in a knot big fella!   Seriously, I respect your right to believe whatever you want to and I thank you for being a forthright person who is able to communicate with me even though we have different beliefs.

The ' peace, man' was NOT a carryover from the Catholic church cos I never went there - it was a carryover from the early 70's and I did go there.  In fact I kinda liked that Woodstock era cos I went through some of my questioning times, eg Hinduism, Buddism, Taoism, Transcendental meditation, various philosophies of man and all that jazz.  I did it all and read about a million books I reckon but kept thinking that there had to be more. I wanted to KNOW personally my god - and eventually I did.

LOVE and peace mothman

Urch

At the end of the day Moth, you can continue praying to your invisible pink unicorn and I'll keep praying to my awesome God - and no, I won't pray to my cat/shoe/dishwasher cos no matter how much I might want to believe they will answer me - they won't!  

No they won't answer you, but they may be perceived to answer you, using the logic I illustrated, in much the same way your god would seem to. I don't need to pray to my awsome unicorn... she's so smart she knows what I'm thinking before I even have to ask. Amazing..and awesome! And to be really honest, I'm not trying to convert you to the unicorn... there's nothing in it for me and I don't see your eternal fate being different either way.

Because of the fact that I have a relationship with my God I can communicate regularly with Him.  No-one is asking you to believe in Him so don't get your knickers in a knot big fella!  

My knickers are completely unknotted, and I appreciate you not preaching at me, but I'll answer your questions as truthfully as I can because you asked me to, and because I enjoy discussing them... as you do. It's certainly more refreshing than the Christians who allude to either having a relationship with Jesus or burning in HELL. Sounds like a forced and phony relationship that one.

Seriously, I respect your right to believe whatever you want to and I thank you for being a forthright person who is able to communicate with me even though we have different beliefs.

Yes, it's nice, and I appreciate you calling me up when it seems I'm not being as respectful as I should be. See this two way communication is actually what I perceive to be a relationship.

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Reply to : MothandRustActually, I'm wondering if there is a right or a wrong, should we justseekto beunique?Hey Mothnostic, we are definitely all unique - some beingmore uniquethan others LOLI am more than happy to tell ofallof my experiences but am afraid it would take up too much room/time - not to mention the fact that I'mmeant to be working!! I'll post Part 2 during my lunch break today all going well. You are a fantastic person Moth, and I would love to see you happy with whatever you choose to believe (or not believe) and to at least search things out. Thisis alwaysa positive step (notice I didn't say

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Hiya little sea urchin..

As Christians, we have a hope and a trust in God when something catastrophic happens to us - we know beyond a shadow of a doubt that God will come through for us.....I always put my trust in God and He ALWAYS honours that trust.  

I admire your faith but to be honest...and I have to agree with Moth. Does God REALLY come through for you each and EVERY time? Did you or someone else have anything to do with correcting a situation that wasn't going right or did you just sit there without doing a single thing and God did all the work? Lets keep in mind that the recent posts on here are about us being completely honest. I think if you really take away the Christain facade and are REALLY truthful to yourself and to us, you would have to admit that, no, God doesn't always come through. I spent 16 years being a fervent little law abiding Christian in the RF but God did not always come through for me. Yes, I admit, there were some times when I would just pray and things would turn around to my benefit but that happens to me now and I don't even pray anymore! Circumstances change all the time. If I was going through a major situation whilst I was in the Church I would definately pray about it, but most times, things would only change if I had a hand in it too. I remember being as you are now. Giving all the glory to God. Don't get me wrong, thats a good thing to do. But give YOURSELF some credit too as I'm sure you have had a hand in changing certain events in your life.

Regards.... Bindi

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Does God REALLY come through for you each and EVERY time? Did you or someone else have anything to do with correcting a situation that wasn't going right or did you just sit there without doing a single thing and God did all the work? Lets keep in mind that the recent posts on here are about us being completely honest. I think if you really take away the Christain facade and are REALLY truthful to yourself and to us, you would have to admit that, no, God doesn't always come through. I spent 16 years being a fervent little law abiding Christian in the RF but God did not always come through for me.

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Spot on Bindi - being a "fervent little law abiding Christian in the RF"  is exactly what I am NOT talking about.   It's not about Revival - it's about relationship !  I also spent many years doing & saying all the right stuff according to the ' gospel of RF'  but God honoured my prayers anyway!  Get it?  

I hear what you are saying Bindi and I AM being honest in saying that God does come through for me - not because I'm anything special or because I prayed the ' right ' way.  I would be happy to tell you some examples of the power of Jesus Christ in my life and even more so since leaving RF.   And whether you or Moth or anyone else choose to believe me or not, does not change the fact.  I am certainly not trying to preach to you, I am just wanting to encourage others and to lift up the name of Jesus as the healer, miracle worker and friend that He is to me. I acknowledge that lots of people here do not feel the same way, and don't get me wrong, I am not trying to ' convert' anyone, but Moth did ask for honesty and truth and this is the truth for me.

Don't misunderstand me, I am also a very positive person and believe that whatever happens in life you just gotta pick yourself up, dust yourself off and keep going forward. Certainly we have to take responsibility for our actions and for our own lives and consciously take steps in the right direction, but (for me anyway) that direction is towards God not away from Him. I am not ashamed to call myself a Christian, in fact I am honoured to - however I understand that not everyone thinks the same as me.  I am extremely grateful that when I prayed in earnest for understanding and courage to leave RF God came through for me. Although all of my friends (24 yrs worth) were there, it was not painful to walk away from them knowing that I would now become one of the ' invisible people'  when I go to shopping centres, restuarants etc because I know that my best friend will always remain with me.

Love, Sea Urchin

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For those that make those kind of statements that "God always comes through".....How is it that God always gets the glory for every positive outcome in your life, but whenever something goes wrong (as it invariably does) it isn't attributed to God, but we are at fault (lacking in faith, didn't appropriate the promises bah, blah, blah)It just does not compute![]Dog.

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Hi Dog

Isn't that 'revival thinking' ?  we are at fault, lacking in faith, didn't appropriate the promises etc.

I personally try to not  think 'revival thinking' anymore - if I do I might as well have stayed there!

In response to your statement that ' God always gets the glory for every positive outcome in your life' etc, I've explained to Bindi (above) my thoughts on that.  You can have the old ' bucket is half full or half empty' attitude to everything in life but it is your choice how you choose to see the bucket.  God can answer prayer, it is up to us if we want Him to or not. We can walk with Him or walk on our own - our choice. 

Speaking for myself I am wanting to forget ' revival thinking'  and think bigger (if that makes sense)

Sea Urchin

Mister Moth,

..I appreciate you not preaching at me, but I'll answer your questions as truthfully as I can because you asked me to, and because I enjoy discussing them... as you do. It's certainly more refreshing than the Christians who allude to either having a relationship with Jesus or burning in HELL. Sounds like a forced and phony relationship that one.

' Refreshing'  is also a good word - add it to your list LOL.  Although I just had a flashback to old whatisname, Gods Word Matters (NOT) when he went on for 3 weeks about the refreshing.   I am definitely not interested in a forced and phony relationship with God - sounds too much like ' RF speak'  to me!

Yes, it's nice, and I appreciate you calling me up when it seems I'm not being as respectful as I should be. See this two way communication is actually what I perceive to be a relationship.

  Aah, you  are a breath of fresh air mothy. I might even mention your name when I'm communicating with  God  later. It's all in the perception aint it?

Catchyalateralligator

Urch

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For those that make those kind of statements that "God always comes through".....How is it that God always gets the glory for every positive outcome in your life, but whenever something goes wrong (as it invariably does) it isn't attributed to God, but we are at fault (lacking in faith, didn't appropriate the promises bah, blah, blah)It just does not compute![]Dog.

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In the end ,for a Christian, I think it boils down to a question of faith. Are you a "ye of little faith", or are you one of the "your faith has healed you, go in peace" variety. Speaking from my own experience,  as someone who often doubted, was often unsure, but hung on in, when told by the Consultant  I had cancer, I never for a single moment blamed God, all I felt at that moment was a great sense of assurance that it would all come right. The guy said, " I dont want you to worry, I'm pretty sure we can deal with it" and I was able to immediately smile, and say " I shant worry, I have someone taking care of me, and He does my worrying for me. I'm sure that he'll  be with me every step of the way, and will be guiding your hands " This is no bull shit. I'm not making it up. And I did come through surgery and chemo ok.  Then they discovered that it had reocurred, and further surgery was planned. Again I never blamed , or turned away from God, I was still confident, and ,I never let it get me down.

Would I have been so confident if I did'nt have that faith?  I cant answer that, but I know many who  would have just gone to , pieces when faced with the news, and some have been known to end it all immediately. And when further tests,a month or so later could find no trace of the re-occurance, I was able to say to the Dr, "see, I told you it would turn out ok." And I certainly gave the glory to God. Maybe that was my trial of faith, maybe I needed that to bring about a change in me. Scoffers will scoff, and point out no doubt dozens of un believers, who's experience has been the same as mine, and Mothy still point out the amputees etc.and I'm unable to refute that. Even the Surgeon agreed that miracles happened, he'd seen them, but was unable to account for them., but that my positive attitude was in my favour.

So there you go, positive attitude, much easier to have , if you have faith, a lot harder without. All I know is I'm recovered, and my faith is 100% stronger now    Shortly after that , the Lord lead us out of Rf, and into where we are now, I  believe it was all part of His plan and purpose

God bless

What I find interesting that a few people have mentioned is that they say

"the lord led me out of RF/RCI into XXX group"

But, perhaps they said the opposite when they first discovered God.. "I was led to the RCI/RF by God.."

Sorry, totally of point, but interesting note..

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What I find interesting that a few people have mentioned is that they say"the lord led me out of RF/RCI into XXX group"But, perhaps they said the opposite when they first discovered God.. "I was led to the RCI/RF by God.."Sorry, totally of point, but interesting note..

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I do believe that God lead me to the RCI/RF,  I  saw  the  great change in my sons life, after he joined, but for 5 yrs I resisted. But my son re-introduced me to the bible, which I had'nt read since my youth,  and as I read it, I became convinced that I needed to get down off the fence, and make a commitment, which I eventualy did. I was baptised , and two days later while doing the RF allelujah thing, my tongue tripped, and I was saying something different entirely. My tongue also is Arabic in sound, and developed over the years from those first babble like noises.

Ive stated before that I am now uncertain wether this was God given, or induced, or learned, and I did'nt experience anything supernatural, only a great feeling of being at peace with God.  What did happen, wether from Baptism, or after speaking in tongues I dont know, I was healed from a painful and progressive osteo-arthritus of the knee, immediate, and lasting.  I can see how my life changed from that time, and i was placed on "the way"  When the time was right , I believe God then led me to where I am now, and will continue to lead me and guide me through the Holy Spirit.  Despite all that I've read, and the discussions I've had since leaving RF,  on  speaking in tongues, that tongue I recieved on that day has never left me, but I have put it into perspective now, and I put more value on the fruits of the Spirit, and no longer believe it is the sole evidence of recieving the Spirit, and that Gods Spirtual gifts are given to the Church, to some this, to some that, as the scriptures say, in order to strengthen it.and guide it.

Would God have eventualy drawn me to him, some other way? I guess if I'm written in that book He would have. And I guess if it was His plan and purpose i might be still there, although I'm convinced now that like O>T Isreal, theyve lost the plot, and their days are numbered. And He will lead many more out , and place them in safe places. I pray for that, (in English) but sometimes I also pray in my tongue language. I'ts not a part of the church service where I am now, but there are others there , including leaders ,who have had the same experience, and  also speak in tongues and use it in their prayer time.

God bless

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Reply to : bindiDoes God REALLY come through for you each and EVERY time? Did you or someone else haveanythingto do with correcting a situation that wasn't going right or did you just sit there without doing a single thing and God did all the work?Lets keep in mind that the recent posts on here are about us beingcompletelyhonest. I think if you really take away the Christain facade and are REALLY truthful to yourself and to us, you would have to admit that, no, God doesn't always come through.I spent 16 years being a fervent little law abiding Christian in the RF but God did notalwayscome through for me.Spot on Bindi - being a "fervent

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Hi again Urchin..

Spot on Bindi - being a "fervent little law abiding Christian in the RF"  is exactly what I am NOT talking about.   It's not about Revival - it's about relationship !  

And spot on right back at ya!   You're absolutely right.

I also spent many years doing & saying all the right stuff according to the ' gospel of RF'  but God honoured my prayers anyway!  Get it?  

Yep.. I get it. I'm sorry if I upset you with my post. You seem to be coming across a little defensive. However.. these are words on a screen and you can't always pick the emotion behind them!

 I certainly didn't mean to cause offense. Just curious to know why Christians always give credit to God when often it is they themselves that have done something to change the situation. I don't know if anyone else did, but I watched the Oprah special last night about 'The Secret'. It was an amazing display of how a positive change of mindset can bring about the most incredible changes in a person's life. It was about the 'Laws of Attraction'. What you think, you feel, what you feel gives out a  vibration to the universe and thus attracts the same. If you think negative, you attract negative, think positive, atttract positive. So... my thoughts are this.. It doesn't matter what 'higher power' you believe in, be it God, Buddha, or Moths pink unicorn ( ha! ), if you have a faith which brings about positive energy, you will attract positive things. Like I said, I admire your faith! And I don't believe for one second you are trying to convert anyone. You are just telling us how it is for you! To quote John Lennon... " Whatever gets you through the night.." lol! Urch... I'm on a journey of discovery like everyone else here is. I'm trying to work out my own mind. I'm trying to find what works for me! I'm not knocking anyone here.. I'm just sitting back and taking it all in. Discarding what doesn't work for me  and delving into what does make sense to me. Asking questions, getting answers.

Don't misunderstand me, I am also a very positive person and believe that whatever happens in life you just gotta pick yourself up, dust yourself off and keep going forward. Certainly we have to take responsibility for our actions and for our own lives and consciously take steps in the right direction, but (for me anyway) that direction is towards God not away from Him.

And that is my point... Positive thinking and appropriate action goes along way!

I am not ashamed to call myself a Christian, in fact I am honoured to

And why should you be??? Don't ever be ashamed of anything that does you only good!

Thanks for your reply Urch!

regards... Bindi

Hi Bindi

I assure you that I didn't get in the slightest bit offended  by anything you said to me.  Moth also apologised to me on the shout box last night.  What's with all the apologies?? I don't take offence at people having opinions - I don't care whether they agree with me or not - I enjoy the communication that we can all have on a level praying (oops) playing field.  I'm quite happy  to agree to disagree on some points - we are all so unique and we certainly don't HAVE to agree on everything.

However, nothing that anyone could ever say to me will EVER change my faith in God. To quote an awesome man of faith ' I will praise God when I'm on the mountain, I will praise God when I'm in the valley, I will praise God always'   This young man is (according to the specialists) dying of a bone-destroying cancer. They have given him no hope whatsoever of survivng and are surprised that he has not died yet. He was diagnosed last October and the disease has certainly rocked his body - BUT NOT HIS FAITH as he continues to preach at Planetshakers and to the youth of Australia. Earlier this year, he got up from his wheelchair and walked across the stage at Planetshakers with 19 broken bones in his body to preach to many thousands of young people. He spoke for around 10 mins and said the above words and then went on to inspire, encourage and lift them to new heights.  He apparently broke more bones while he was preaching but continued on anyway.  His name is Mike Gugglielmucci and his father Danny is the senior pastor at Edge Church. We are all obviously praying for his healing as he continues on living for God and praising His name.  He writes hundreds of songs and he wrote one earlier this year called 'Healer' .  It was the first song I heard when I started going to this church and the words blew me away and still do.  It was almost as though they were written for those of us who had started going there from RF in January - not just about physical healing but emotional healing which we all need when we leave a cult.  I am inspired by his unwavering faith in God to carry him through the valley.

Love to all , Urch 

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Reply to : bindiHi BindiI assure you that Ididn't get in the slightest bit offended by anything you said to me. Moth also apologised to me on the shout box last night. What's with all the apologies?? I don't take offence at people having opinions - I don't care whether they agree with me or not - I enjoy the communication that we can all have on a level praying (oops) playing field.I'm quite happy to agree to disagree on some points -we are all so uniqueand we certainly don't HAVE to agree on everything.However, nothing that anyone could ever say to me will EVER change my faith in God. To quote an awesome man of faith 'I will praise God when I'm on the mountain, I will praise God when I'm in the valley, I will praiseGo

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Hi again urchin..

That certainly was a moving story of faith on that gentlemans part! I hope he does indeed get the healing he requires! Sheesh! I'm flat out trying to get out of bed if my bones are just aching let alone walk across a platform with several broken bones!

I was thinking back to my time in the Rf and the amount of people who got healings. But the number of people wo DIDN'T get healings seemed to far outway. I got healings sometimes, and other times I didn't. Why do you think that is? A very dear, dear man in the RF died about 10 months ago, same time as my father sadly so I got a double whammy! He was the most christian man Ive ever met. In every way. His love for the brethren was very genuine. He was diagnosed with cancer also. He decided to forego treatment and wait on God to heal him. Well, he didn't get healed ( obviously ) and it rocked everyone. So, what makes one dedicated christian get healed and not another? This are my questions. I am well aware that everyone of us has to go at some stage. But why so cruely? This topic of faith and positive thoughts intrigues me. Even with the 'Laws of attraction' theory.. shit still happens to people! I was talking with someone today who is currently seeing a councellor and she said that her councellor told her how she is  helping people who have dedicated their lives to this 'laws of attraction' thing and are eaten up with guilt and condemnation because they are still thinking negative thoughts and feel that they are attracting it also! Reminded me of being in the RF and being eaten up with the same guilt because I felt I didnt have enough faith or wasn't doing everything right! Guess you just got to come to the realization that despite your faith, despite having positive thoughts and all the rest of it... Things are still going to go wrong and not always your way. Anyway... departing for a while because my social science show is on.. Big Brother! Hahaha!

Regards... Bindi

Let's talk about tongues, baby

let's talk about you and me

Let's talk about all the good things

and the bad things that may be

let's talk about tongues...

That was the musical introduction to today's talk on tongues set to the music from the beloved pop song, 'let's talk bout sex'. Of course tongues has nothing to do with sex unless you are a cunning-linguist and if that were actually the 'gift' given at the day of penteconst then we've truly been missing out on something special. Because apparently that is a gift that no man understands... unless gifted.

Anyway, that's a subject I would only continue further if Shiner was here. I was moved to ponder the concept of confusing languages and I think I mentioned earlier my confusion that God rewarded his people of the new testament a language that was confusing to man because only God understood it, yet punished his Old testament people by giving them languages that couldn't be understood by each other.

That lead me to explore the following concepts... which are sort of... confusing.

GE 11:9 At Babel, the Lord confused the language of the whole world.
1CO 14:33 Paul says that God is not the author of confusion.

GE 10:5, 20, 31 There were many languages before the Tower of Babel.
GE 11:1 There was only one language before the Tower of Babel.