Tongues: The 'Rest' and Isaiah 28

Title: Tongues: The 'Rest' and Isaiah 28
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Date Posted：12/03/2007 8:29 PMCopy HTML

In the closing months of 1900 Pastor Charles Parham established theffice:smarttags" />?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comBethelBibleSchoolon the outskirts ofTopeka,Kansas,U.S.A.It was there that he challenged his thirty-four students to search the Scriptures for evidence of receiving the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.His students were soon in agreement that the outward physical evidence of such an experience was the glossolalia or speaking in tongues.At a New Year Service to usher in 1901, Parham prayed for a young student named AgnesOzman, he laid his hands on her and she began to speak in a language she had never learned or heard. Over the next few daysParham and other members of the students body had the same experience; the Pentecostal movement had begun. Soon it wasto spread to theBritish Isles,Scandinaviaand across the English-speaking world.Sadly after almost a century the concept of an experience subsequent to conversion, commonly known as the Baptism of theHoly Spirit, and accompanied by supernatural phenomena, remains a source of deep rooted division amongst many.I for one believe that this event was one of many at that time that heralded the Latter Rain, Holy Spirit outpouring.If I am wrong, please someone, anyone, everyone show me where!let the battle be joined. With Sword drawn I await your response.

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Re：Tongues: The 'Rest' and Isaiah 28

Date Posted：21/03/2007 7:59 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : luke7_35
'GWM',
Yet again.
GWM: I agree with you here Ian. The whole chapter is obviously speaking of the spiritually immaturity. 1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. So, yet again, you're saying that I'm right but wrong in what I've said, at the same time?; and that I remain one of those a 'natural' men? 
SOTT1: Interestingly enough, in spite of the outward differences between what Isaiah wrote and intended, and Paul's use of Isaiah; the two contexts actually match quite well! Those who see themselves as 'wise' and 'gifted' in their own eyes dismiss the plain message as being 'childish', when in reality it's the supposedly 'wise' who think and act like children. The disdain of the Corinthian 'tongues-speakers' for plain speech strikes home: if they want something other than intelligible speech, they can have it. However, it'll actually serve as something of an 'uncomfortable' judgement, given that it'll place many of God's own people, those they ought to care for, in the position of being aliens and foreigners. In effect, Paul was both quoting and applying the passage, and this accounts for the similarities and differences.
GWM: Here we go again trying to place the Word of God into an academically formed box. There are several applications of the intent of both Isaiah and Paul. Both of whom spoke not as (Natural men) but, as they were inspired so to do. 2Pe 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. 
Well, perhaps what I've actually done, is explain the linkage between the two passages as they relate to the Corinthian situation? But if I haven't, then please show me where, and explain to me why?
SOTT1: Paul applies the passage to the effect that 'tongues' has on unbelievers as well as on fellow Christians in the Corinthian context! To Paul, 'tongues' speaking in public worship can be inappropriate, because it places many of God's own people in the situation of feeling like foreigners in a foreign land; and second, contrary to some mistaken assumptions about 'spirituality' in Hellenism, 'tongues' won't bring the message of the gospel home to unbelievers!
GWM: I disagree with you there. Tongues has a purpose: - 1Co 14:22  Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. (Tongues is a sign of the presence of the Holy Spirit, it is not Communication). Of course you disagree with me. Interestingly enough, the mere fact that Paul spent three chapters explaining 'tongues' and its usage as he did seems to fit my explanation of the matter so much better than your own.
Prophecy has the effect of "bringing the message of the gospel home to unbelievers!" Nowhere in Corinthians is prophecy presented as "bringing the message of the gospel home to unbelievers". What it is presented as doing is to be found in 1 Corinthians 14:24 and 25.
I do agree with the influence of Hellenism. This is clearly a reference to the "damsel possessed with a spirit of divination" of Acts 16:16. I have read the other analysis by UNKOOLMAN on this topic and found it not without merit. Once again taking a narrow (natural) view of this text leaves you missing the more far reaching consequences of the message. I will try and be brief. 
And I'll ignore this change of tack for the time being, but will make the comment: you've engaged in 'spiritualising' of the text, yet again.
SOTT1: 'GWM', I believe you've completely misunderstood what Paul was saying to the Corinthian 'glossolalics' through his quoting of Isaiah. As for your challenge to me as to when I entered into the biblical 'rest', well, the answer to that question is dead easy, and doesn't require anywhere near the detailed explanation that I provided above. It's simple: "Come to me, all who labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls." Jesus Christ, as quoted by Matthew (11:28 and 29). I entered my 'rest' when I fell upon Christ's mercy.
GWM: I ask you and all who have read this post one question. When do we take the "yoke" upon us? Could it be that it is as Luke wrote Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; The presence of the lord comes with the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. The 'yoke' is taken up at the same time, given that it describes us coming under the lordship of Christ. Incidentally, Christ's 'yoke' is easy, at least it is according to verse 30. 
The receiving of the Holy Spirit is crucial to entry into God's Rest. To say you have entered; without the yoke, the comforter, the conversion, the Holy Ghost and Fire all the same thing in scripture is to ignore the warning: Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. The Holy Spirit certainly is crucial to being saved. However, the Holy Spirit doesn't equal 'tongues'. Nor do the words 'yoke', Comforter (etc) describe the same things.
In summary, the more that you write, the clearer your lack of understanding with respect to Scripture and biblical theology becomes. Sadly, though, you're one of those sorts of people who refuse to heed biblical correction from others, because you refuse to concede that your views might be false. Even when Scripture is clearly exposited for your benefit. Such, 'GWM', indicates WILLFUL ignorance.
Ian
didaktikon@gmail.com

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Re：Tongues: The 'Rest' and Isaiah 28

Date Posted：21/03/2007 8:12 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : luke7_35
And finally, the end!
The Conclusion of the matter: God Rested and was refreshed on the Seventh day. God went on to institute a Sabbath Rest for the nation of Israel. This Rest was for all generations. Exo 31:16  Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. And this supports your view with respect to Isaiah's 'rest' equalling 'tongues', how exactly?
Here's my own summary of how things have gone: One, you've accepted that I explained correctly the meaning of Isaiah 28 as applied by Paul to the Corinthian context. Two, in your very lengthy, six part diatribe, not once did you refute, rebut or otherwise engage with my exegeses. All I read was verbiage. Three, you continued, over and over, to restate your personal opinion on what you believe concerning the matter, in spite of it being shown without biblical basis. Oh, you did that and call me names, over and over too.
'GWM', let me put this to you plainly: you're not a teacher of biblical truth. You've demonstrated yourself to be wholly incapable of 'rightly dividing' God's Word, further, you clearly lack even the basic ability of being able to comprehend context in written texts. You, my friend, are headed towards an abyss,and that scares me.
Repent while there remains time.
Ian
didaktikon@gmail.com

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Re：Tongues: The 'Rest' and Isaiah 28

Date Posted：21/03/2007 4:15 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : SOTT1 

Reply to : luke7_35And finally, the end!The Conclusion of the matter: God Rested and was refreshed on the Seventh day. God went on to institute a Sabbath Rest for the nation of Israel. This Rest was for all generations. Exo 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.And this supports your view with respect to Isaiah's 'rest' equalling 'tongues', how exactly?Here's my own summary of how things have gone: One, you've accepted that Iexplained correctlythe meaning of Isaiah 28 as applied by Paul to the Corinthian context. Two, in your very lengthy, six part diatribe,not oncedid you refute, rebut or otherwise engage with my exegeses. All I read was verbiage. Three, you continued, over and over, to restate yourpersonal opinion 

Hi SOTT1: I just wanted to know something. Are you a teacher of Religion?

Gal 4:16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

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Re：Tongues: The 'Rest' and Isaiah 28

Date Posted：21/03/2007 8:08 PMCopy HTML

Oh Luke... you've been PWNED DUDE! - Thoroughly!
(Pwned is a relatively new internet buzzword that is used in online gaming and discussion boards; it's origins are often argued about but a comprehensive definition can be found at Urban Dictionary - Peace). I sound like a freaking Ian Fanboy here, but credit given where due I suppose...
It's always fun to see someone pwned.. especially Revival types as remarkably ignorant as this one. His high-and-mighty attitude is nothing more than laughable... In six full size posts he did not respond to anything directly. If name calling and copious amounts of inane ranting counted for anything he'd be way ahead and I'd be winning. Lots of opinions here from someone who said in his original post "Please respond with a scriptural rebuttal NOT OPINION."
Okay, here's my summary from a guy who takes an irregular delight in watching other people argue scripture. It's a sickness but what are ya gonna do? The amount of inconsistencies and contradictions in what he has said in the last week are too delicious not to comment on. Highlights were Lukey stating Revival tongues doctrine to be immature but at the same time agrees with it with relish.
Luke said: agreed with Ian's interpretation (and disagreed at the same time) and then went on to say..."the scripture is however much more complex than a simple academic analysis can provide by way of explanation."
Moth: This is the very same Luke who said that "he believes the simplicity that is in Christ should be evident without having to study greek etc. He said that "scripture should not be complicated and it should speak for itself"- ha! You're beyond help.
Luke: The "Rest" that would be instituted upon the promised outpouring of the Holy Spirit. This we know and agree.
Ian: didn't agree though, he said "The fullfilment of the biblical Sabbath will take place at the inauguration of the Kingdom of God in all its fullness." (So what is the next life Lukey... a rest from resting?)
Luke said something weird about studying bark instead of forests and that it's the glory of kings to search out a godly matter but it's best not to be educated in such things. He then later says that education is fine as long as it's not academic.
Luke quotes the following scripture (2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness) but cries foul when it is used for reproof too much... study it too much and GWM will label you a filthy academic and all sorts of other names.
But the Bible says in Hosea 4:6 - My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee. (God's word matters, GWM).
Luke quotes - 1Co 14:8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle? The word "sound" here is the same word used in John 3:8. "Phone" in the Greek
Moth - See, this is what I've been saying. Every single reference of sound or language in the bible gets interpreted as tongues by the Revivalists. Fart, sneeze, sing, talk, rest (?), phone, language, babel, groaning, stammer, voice... they somehow manage to tie every single reference to meaning 'speaking in ecstatic tongues'. It's like JWs who rewrite every mention of God's name or title back to Jehovah. Every single reference... So what? Now tongues is an uncertain sound that when heard should cause you to back down from battle? Makes less sense than the usual tongues justifications. I thought you had your sword out at the start of this thread? Getting blunt.
Luke - Ceasing from works = Holy Spirit Baptism = Salvation = Born again = Rest
Moth says - You spent 6 huge chunks of text only to end up saying that (2+2) = (2-2) = (2x2) = 4, but it doesn't add up buddy. Maybe you should study your bible rather than waiting for inspiration. After all, It is available for reproof, doctrine and correction. 2 Tim 2:15 study to shew thyself approved unto God... (Oops is studying academic? I think it might be!) Let the scriptures speak!

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Re：Tongues: The 'Rest' and Isaiah 28

Date Posted：21/03/2007 9:24 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : MothandRust 


OhLuke...you'vebeenPWNEDDUDE!- Thoroughly!(Pwnedis a relatively new internet buzzword that is used in online gaming and discussion boards; it's origins are often argued about but a comprehensive definition can be found atUrban Dictionary- Peace). I sound like a freaking Ian Fanboy here, but credit given where due I suppose...It's always fun to see someone pwned.. especially Revival types as remarkably 

Pwned ha Good one. Disagree though with the assessment. Though not surprised. The intent was not to engage SOTT! in a battle of the Theological Knowledge. That is his game not mine. I am a humble servant, not a scholar. I have my reward! SOTT1 on the other hand is a educated teacher. Ever learning! He has his reward also. 
I don't wan to get into a battle of wits, I fear I would be un-armed.
But you know what. Jesus warned time and time again of people who would be blind leaders of the blind. Where is SOTT! leading you.
The thing with RAT poison is that it is 95% Attractive 5% Arsnic. Which of us is eating what?
You along with everyone on this site have been hurt, wronged or something. Moth you sound like you were hurt the most!
I only hope my message was not lost in SOTT1's respons. Mat ffice:smarttags" />11:15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. 
I don't come on here much. I have a full life. I hope that people reading this stop for one moment to think if Jesus were sitting right there next to you as you type. Watching every key stroke. What would he advise you to do?
Again if the measure of success is based on eloquence of speach than of course I loose. Da 
My goal was and is never to convince anyone. 
All am saying is this:
Jesus Died! yes he really did. Jesus Died for you and for me. not to sit around indulging ourselves in our own pride.
Moth my advice to you is to grow some hair on you chest get out from hiding behind your computer and join the REAL BATTLE being waged.
To the rest of the poeple hurt. Dont let things get you down you are more than conquerers. Their are 6 000,000,000 poeple out there who need saving. If you dont like the revivalist interpretation. Great! Go and start your own revival. If you need comfort seek it from Jesus. NOT the Luke warm SOTT1 or the deeply conflicted Moth. These guys have an agenda and I dont think your well being is part of that. They will you somewhere you dont wanna go!!
I have seen people killed, hung, lives really destroyed close friends. Stop playing the blame game it just is NOT healthy.
Forgive, Forgive, Forgive for your sake forgive.
Bye the way ; upon reading back over what the posts. Exactly the outcome I had hoped for. Wisdom is indeed Justified by ALL her Children!!! SOTT1 didn't see it neither did Moth; But they never did!!
Bye for now Luke 7:35

Gal 4:16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

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Re：Tongues: The 'Rest' and Isaiah 28

Date Posted：21/03/2007 9:45 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : luke7_35 
The intent was not to engage SOTT! in a battle of the Theological Knowledge. 
You started this thread by challenging anyone who would take it on... your 'sword' was drawn. YOU said "If I am wrong, please someone, anyone, everyone show me where!" Sounds like a theological challenge to me. You are the king of contradiction.
I don't wan to get into a battle of wits, I fear I would be un-armed.
Truer words have never been spoken, my man... you have no wit. Study some more before you go teaching hey? I bet those seven day adventists thought you were a piece of work.
But you know what. Jesus warned time and time again of people who would be blind leaders of the blind. Where is SOTT! leading you.
Me, I'm not a Christian, very different to SOTT and all I know about him is that his name is Ian T... so he isn't leading me anywhere. I just find his interpretation of scripture to be far more superior and believable than yours.
The thing with RAT poison is that it is 95% Attractive 5% Arsnic. Which of us is eating what?
Um... dunno, from where I'm standing your doctrine is all arsnic 100%
You along with everyone on this site have been hurt, wronged or something. Moth you sound like you were hurt the most!
Nah. I left of my own accord. Skipped out and joined other churches quite happily, then sometime after I decided I'd rather sleep in and enjoy my full life. My wife was wronged but she can't be bothered whinging about it anymore.
I don't come on here much. I have a full life. I hope that people reading this stop for one moment to think if Jesus were sitting right there next to you as you type. Watching every key stroke. What would he advise you to do?
He just whispered into my ear... he said "well done my good and faithful servant, you have come out and separated yourself from them". 
Again if the measure of success is based on eloquence of speach than of course I loose. Da My goal was and is never to convince anyone. 
Yes you'd 'loose' (sic). No, just some scriptural knowledge that made sense would have been fine. You spent a LOT of time NOT trying to convince us of anything... ??? 
All am saying is this:Jesus Died! yes he really did. Jesus Died for you and for me. not to sit around indulging ourselves in our own pride.
That's what I think... he died. Long time ago. Whether he rose again and gave us magic powers ala the Revival way is yet to be proven via your arguments. Your deluded ramblings do very little to convince anyone.
Moth my advice to you is to grow some hair on you chest get out from hiding behind your computer and join the REAL BATTLE being waged.
Yes... with the trumpet of tongues! We fight with principalities eh... that can be easily done online.
Their are 6 000,000,000 poeple out there who need saving. 
All 6 billion? minus one? You? All the rest are stuffed eh? 
Bye the way ; upon reading back over what the posts. Exactly the outcome I had hoped for. Wisdom is indeed Justified by ALL her Children!!! SOTT1 didn't see it neither did Moth; But they never did!!Oh, we fell into your cunning master plan! Gosh, you are so mental.

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Re：Tongues: The 'Rest' and Isaiah 28

Date Posted：22/03/2007 5:58 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : luke7_35
'GWM',
My interactions with you really have saddened me. I've not been exposed to such an alarming level of biblical and theological ignorance, coupled with misplaced arrogance and judgmentalism, in a very long time. You my friend, could well fit as something of a 'poster boy' for what is the worst about Revivalism.
The intent was not to engage SOTT! in a battle of the Theological Knowledge. That is his game not mine. I am a humble servant, not a scholar. I have my reward! SOTT1 on the other hand is a educated teacher. Ever learning! He has his reward also. As has already been pointed out, you did come here to engage me. You even started a separate thread wherein you invited/challenged me to debate. Get a grasp of reality, man, and stop 'flip-flopping' with the truth. And, as for your backhanded comment about my supposed 'reward', I won't even deign to respond with what I think of that piece of spite. 
But you know what. Jesus warned time and time again of people who would be blind leaders of the blind. Where is SOTT! leading you. Along the 'paths of righteousness', my friend, for I am neither blind nor self-deluded. 
The thing with RAT poison is that it is 95% Attractive 5% Arsnic. Which of us is eating what? You guess. 
I only hope my message was not lost in SOTT1's respons. Mat 11:15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. Your 'message' was a pointless and self-serving ramble, 'GWM'. I'm confident that most people are more than capable of seeing it for what it is (even the current Revivalists). 
I don't come on here much. I have a full life. I hope that people reading this stop for one moment to think if Jesus were sitting right there next to you as you type. Watching every key stroke. What would he advise you to do? No, but when you do come here, you have to chose which one of three personalities to adopt, don't you? What do you think Jesus' thinks of that rather 'slippery' tactic? 
My goal was and is never to convince anyone. Read you initial posts again, then repent of your constant and obvious falsehoods. 
Jesus Died! yes he really did. Jesus Died for you and for me. not to sit around indulging ourselves in our own pride. And on this I fully agree. But this isn't now, and never has been about Jesus' vicarious and atoning death. This is about your unbiblical and heretical claim that unless a person speaks in 'tongues', they aren't saved!
To the rest of the poeple hurt. Dont let things get you down you are more than conquerers. Their are 6 000,000,000 poeple out there who need saving. If you dont like the revivalist interpretation. Great! Go and start your own revival. If you need comfort seek it from Jesus. NOT the Luke warm SOTT1 or the deeply conflicted Moth. These guys have an agenda and I dont think your well being is part of that. They will you somewhere you dont wanna go!! 
'Lukewarm', huh? The following info isn't intended to be a boast, and I had to really reflect in depth on whether or not I should share it publicly (given that I've not done so previously). But I came to the conclusion that you really are incapable of making sound judgements without the benefit of adequate knowledge, and such will continue to get you into trouble until you realise that you need to stop 'shooting from the hip' in such a presumptuous fashion. So please reflect on the following, and how such is supported by your labeling me, 'lukewarm'. First the 'religious': I study God's Word a minimum of three hours each and every day of the year, and I don't simply mean a 'skim' reading of it. Further, I pray for a minimum of one and a half hours each and every day of the year. And such prayer isn't simply unfocused 'babbling' along in 'tongues' while the mind wanders. Sometimes I'm called upon to preach. When I am, I commit at least twenty hours towards preparing each and every thirty minute sermon I deliver. Five of those hours are devoted to prayer that seeks God's blessing on the outcome of my task: changed lives. And, as I have mentioned here before, I tutor a number of theology undergraduates in biblical studies. I take this role VERY seriously, and so I'm prepared to commit the time that's needed by each and every student for them to fully understand their subject matter. I'm also actively engaged in apologetics and evangelism. My goal over the past decade has been to personally disciple at least ten people per year. So much for the strictly 'religious'. However, for the past eight years I've also been committed to helping others simply because it's the right thing to do. So, at various times, I've been engaged in: running non-religious youth groups for local kids in the community; assisting in caring for the homeless and chemically dependent in my wider community; engaged in advocacy for society's dispossessed and distressed. I've also gone overseas a few times to help those who've suffered from the effects of famine, war and disease. And then, of course, there's the fact that I'm a husband and father, and lastly, that I also have a full-time career. 
My life is fairly full, friend, and a significant 'chunk' of it is devoted to active Christian 'ministry' in a number of forms and contexts.
I have seen people killed, hung, lives really destroyed close friends. Stop playing the blame game it just is NOT healthy. I would wager that my profession has exposed me to considerably more death, carnage, suffering and destruction than most have encountered; so I know full well the urgency of the task given to Christians in this life. Just perhaps you should be less presumptuous in your assumptions of others when compared with yourself? 
Bye the way ; upon reading back over what the posts. Exactly the outcome I had hoped for. Wisdom is indeed Justified by ALL her Children!!! SOTT1 didn't see it neither did Moth; But they never did!! 
If the outcome that you hoped for was to prove yourself incapable at handling God's Word responsibly, then I'm certain you've succeeded. What you've been 'preaching' isn't wisdom, my friend, but base ignorance. Again, please reflect on how you've been representing our Saviour here, and then repent. 
Ian
didaktikon@gmail.com

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Re：Tongues: The 'Rest' and Isaiah 28

Date Posted：22/03/2007 8:45 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : SOTT1 

My interactions with you reallyhavesaddened me. I've not been exposed to such an alarming level of biblical and theological ignorance, coupled with misplaced arrogance and judgmentalism, in a very long time. You my friend, could well fit as something of a 'poster boy' for what is the worst about Revivalism

Luke warm?, I wish I had a fraction of you heat brother. and your patience with this guys rambling, from the first time he appeared has been a lesson to us all . I feel that I wasted 18 years listening to people like him ,now  I am enjoying hearing the truth, and taking  part in  the  kind of good works you describe, so neglected in those organisations, he represents. often sneered at in fact.  I have been amazed at the mission support going on, localy and overseas, and the prayer support given constantly. I think you were quite right to tell  him what a real hot walk is all about, although in his case I doubt it will make any difference.
God bless.

"But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord "

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Re：Tongues: The 'Rest' and Isaiah 28

Date Posted：22/03/2007 11:15 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : Brolga 


Thankyou OH,I was about to lift my keyboard finger to express much the same what you have, only I put up with it for 38 years. NowI have an open mind about things and "boy", it's been an eye opener .brolga 

Hey Brolga & old H,  I have to agree with both of you - my eyes have also been opened and my mind freed. Didn't even know that I was 'blinkered' and my mind was 'closed' till the Lord was gracious enough to reveal things to me! 
I know I've said this before - but I'M SO HAPPY IN MY WALK IN THE LORD now that I know what liberty really means.
I think Luke/GWM or whatever his name is has just been doing our heads in !  As for me I've got much better things to do than listen to his carryings on (practical things like serving others and applying what I read in the Bible to my life!)
Stay cool! Sea Urchin

Your unfailing love, O Lord, is as vast as the heavens; your faithfulness reaches beyond the clouds. Your righteousness is like the mighty mountains, your justice like the ocean depths.

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Re：Tongues: The 'Rest' and Isaiah 28

Date Posted：22/03/2007 11:30 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : Sea Urchin 

I think Luke/GWM or whatever his name is has just been doing our heads in !  As for me I've got much better things to do than listen to his carryings on (practical things like serving others and applying what I read in the Bible to my life!) 

Yes, in fact he has been using a total of three user-names over the last couple of weeks and is no longer welcome to post on this forum. His admission for one of the extra names was because he lost his password, but that does not account for the third user-name. All further posts will be deleted if and when he tries to log-in in under yet another handle.
Moddy.

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Re：Tongues: The 'Rest' and Isaiah 28

Date Posted：22/03/2007 2:16 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : Unkoolman

Yes, in fact he has been using a total of three user-names over the last couple of weeks

Says it all doesn't it!  Methinks someone who can't abide by a few simple forum rules is hardly in a position to be preaching God at anyone... and it certainly showed in his typical Revivalist thinking - when legitimately challenged on scriptural issues, revert to the good old "I'm approaching this spiritually and you're just looking at it intellectually, therefore my argument is more valid".  On that basis anyone can preach whatever they like as long as they're 'spiritually' convinced it's right!  and that's how we got tangled up in Revivalist doctrine in the first place.

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Re：Tongues: The 'Rest' and Isaiah 28

Date Posted：22/03/2007 2:43 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : misswooty 

When legitimately challenged on scriptural issues, revert to the good old "I'm approaching thisspirituallyand you're just looking at itintellectually, therefore my argument is more valid". On that basis anyone can preach whatever they like as long as they're 'spiritually' convinced it's right! and that's how we got tangled up in Revivalist doctrine in the first place. 

There's a certain obstinate foolhardyness to coming onto an ex-denominational board in the first place to challenge its members on previously believed doctrine. With his lack of tact I doubt he's finding any converts in his off-line battle, so that's somewhat comforting.
Debating Lukey on the topic of tongues was like trying to play chess with a pigeon - it knocks the pieces over, craps on the board, and flys back to its flock to claim victory.

Instagram and Twitter: @mothpete

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Register：15/02/2007 7:34 AM

Re：Tongues: The 'Rest' and Isaiah 28

Date Posted：23/03/2007 7:09 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : MothandRust 
Debating Lukey on the topic of tongues was like trying to play chess with a pigeon - it knocks the pieces over, craps on the board, and flys back to its flock to claim victory.
________________________________________________________________
Hey Mr Moth man,  I think a pigeon is more intelligent than ' GWM/Lukey or whatever-his- name-is-this-week'  actually!  He sounds like an Adelaide RF pastor  - same attitude. Same manner of speaking down to people - the same '" knock 'em over, plop all over 'em and then boast about it to the rest of the ' flock'  type attitude" .  Anyway, good riddance I say. 
Please forgive me for saying this but I've noticed a change in you of late also - is that shell getting a little softer?  I'm not having a go - love you just as you are Mr Mothy!  
Stay cool, Sea urchin

Your unfailing love, O Lord, is as vast as the heavens; your faithfulness reaches beyond the clouds. Your righteousness is like the mighty mountains, your justice like the ocean depths.

Ex_Member
Rank： Score：0 Posts：0 From：Unknown Register：21/09/2018 12:36 AM	Date Posted：12/03/2007 8:29 PMCopy HTML In the closing months of 1900 Pastor Charles Parham established theffice:smarttags" />?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comBethelBibleSchoolon the outskirts ofTopeka,Kansas,U.S.A.It was there that he challenged his thirty-four students to search the Scriptures for evidence of receiving the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.His students were soon in agreement that the outward physical evidence of such an experience was the glossolalia or speaking in tongues.At a New Year Service to usher in 1901, Parham prayed for a young student named AgnesOzman, he laid his hands on her and she began to speak in a language she had never learned or heard. Over the next few daysParham and other members of the students body had the same experience; the Pentecostal movement had begun. Soon it wasto spread to theBritish Isles,Scandinaviaand across the English-speaking world.Sadly after almost a century the concept of an experience subsequent to conversion, commonly known as the Baptism of theHoly Spirit, and accompanied by supernatural phenomena, remains a source of deep rooted division amongst many.I for one believe that this event was one of many at that time that heralded the Latter Rain, Holy Spirit outpouring.If I am wrong, please someone, anyone, everyone show me where!let the battle be joined. With Sword drawn I await your response.
Ex_Member	Share to: #51
Rank： Score：0 Posts：0 From：Unknown Register：21/09/2018 12:36 AM	Re：Tongues: The 'Rest' and Isaiah 28 Date Posted：21/03/2007 7:59 AMCopy HTML Reply to : luke7_35 'GWM', Yet again. GWM: I agree with you here Ian. The whole chapter is obviously speaking of the spiritually immaturity. 1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. So, yet again, you're saying that I'm right but wrong in what I've said, at the same time?; and that I remain one of those a 'natural' men? SOTT1: Interestingly enough, in spite of the outward differences between what Isaiah wrote and intended, and Paul's use of Isaiah; the two contexts actually match quite well! Those who see themselves as 'wise' and 'gifted' in their own eyes dismiss the plain message as being 'childish', when in reality it's the supposedly 'wise' who think and act like children. The disdain of the Corinthian 'tongues-speakers' for plain speech strikes home: if they want something other than intelligible speech, they can have it. However, it'll actually serve as something of an 'uncomfortable' judgement, given that it'll place many of God's own people, those they ought to care for, in the position of being aliens and foreigners. In effect, Paul was both quoting and applying the passage, and this accounts for the similarities and differences. GWM: Here we go again trying to place the Word of God into an academically formed box. There are several applications of the intent of both Isaiah and Paul. Both of whom spoke not as (Natural men) but, as they were inspired so to do. 2Pe 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. Well, perhaps what I've actually done, is explain the linkage between the two passages as they relate to the Corinthian situation? But if I haven't, then please show me where, and explain to me why? SOTT1: Paul applies the passage to the effect that 'tongues' has on unbelievers as well as on fellow Christians in the Corinthian context! To Paul, 'tongues' speaking in public worship can be inappropriate, because it places many of God's own people in the situation of feeling like foreigners in a foreign land; and second, contrary to some mistaken assumptions about 'spirituality' in Hellenism, 'tongues' won't bring the message of the gospel home to unbelievers! GWM: I disagree with you there. Tongues has a purpose: - 1Co 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. (Tongues is a sign of the presence of the Holy Spirit, it is not Communication). Of course you disagree with me. Interestingly enough, the mere fact that Paul spent three chapters explaining 'tongues' and its usage as he did seems to fit my explanation of the matter so much better than your own. Prophecy has the effect of "bringing the message of the gospel home to unbelievers!" Nowhere in Corinthians is prophecy presented as "bringing the message of the gospel home to unbelievers". What it is presented as doing is to be found in 1 Corinthians 14:24 and 25. I do agree with the influence of Hellenism. This is clearly a reference to the "damsel possessed with a spirit of divination" of Acts 16:16. I have read the other analysis by UNKOOLMAN on this topic and found it not without merit. Once again taking a narrow (natural) view of this text leaves you missing the more far reaching consequences of the message. I will try and be brief. And I'll ignore this change of tack for the time being, but will make the comment: you've engaged in 'spiritualising' of the text, yet again. SOTT1: 'GWM', I believe you've completely misunderstood what Paul was saying to the Corinthian 'glossolalics' through his quoting of Isaiah. As for your challenge to me as to when I entered into the biblical 'rest', well, the answer to that question is dead easy, and doesn't require anywhere near the detailed explanation that I provided above. It's simple: "Come to me, all who labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls." Jesus Christ, as quoted by Matthew (11:28 and 29). I entered my 'rest' when I fell upon Christ's mercy. GWM: I ask you and all who have read this post one question. When do we take the "yoke" upon us? Could it be that it is as Luke wrote Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; The presence of the lord comes with the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. The 'yoke' is taken up at the same time, given that it describes us coming under the lordship of Christ. Incidentally, Christ's 'yoke' is easy, at least it is according to verse 30. The receiving of the Holy Spirit is crucial to entry into God's Rest. To say you have entered; without the yoke, the comforter, the conversion, the Holy Ghost and Fire all the same thing in scripture is to ignore the warning: Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. The Holy Spirit certainly is crucial to being saved. However, the Holy Spirit doesn't equal 'tongues'. Nor do the words 'yoke', Comforter (etc) describe the same things. In summary, the more that you write, the clearer your lack of understanding with respect to Scripture and biblical theology becomes. Sadly, though, you're one of those sorts of people who refuse to heed biblical correction from others, because you refuse to concede that your views might be false. Even when Scripture is clearly exposited for your benefit. Such, 'GWM', indicates WILLFUL ignorance. Ian didaktikon@gmail.com
Ex_Member	Share to: #52
Rank： Score：0 Posts：0 From：Unknown Register：21/09/2018 12:36 AM	Re：Tongues: The 'Rest' and Isaiah 28 Date Posted：21/03/2007 8:12 AMCopy HTML Reply to : luke7_35 And finally, the end! The Conclusion of the matter: God Rested and was refreshed on the Seventh day. God went on to institute a Sabbath Rest for the nation of Israel. This Rest was for all generations. Exo 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. And this supports your view with respect to Isaiah's 'rest' equalling 'tongues', how exactly? Here's my own summary of how things have gone: One, you've accepted that I explained correctly the meaning of Isaiah 28 as applied by Paul to the Corinthian context. Two, in your very lengthy, six part diatribe, not once did you refute, rebut or otherwise engage with my exegeses. All I read was verbiage. Three, you continued, over and over, to restate your personal opinion on what you believe concerning the matter, in spite of it being shown without biblical basis. Oh, you did that and call me names, over and over too. 'GWM', let me put this to you plainly: you're not a teacher of biblical truth. You've demonstrated yourself to be wholly incapable of 'rightly dividing' God's Word, further, you clearly lack even the basic ability of being able to comprehend context in written texts. You, my friend, are headed towards an abyss,and that scares me. Repent while there remains time. Ian didaktikon@gmail.com
luke7_35	Share to: #53
Rank：Noob Score：260 Posts：10 From：Unknown Register：04/03/2007 12:51 PM	Re：Tongues: The 'Rest' and Isaiah 28 Date Posted：21/03/2007 4:15 PMCopy HTML Reply to : SOTT1 Reply to : luke7_35And finally, the end!The Conclusion of the matter: God Rested and was refreshed on the Seventh day. God went on to institute a Sabbath Rest for the nation of Israel. This Rest was for all generations. Exo 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.And this supports your view with respect to Isaiah's 'rest' equalling 'tongues', how exactly?Here's my own summary of how things have gone: One, you've accepted that Iexplained correctlythe meaning of Isaiah 28 as applied by Paul to the Corinthian context. Two, in your very lengthy, six part diatribe,not oncedid you refute, rebut or otherwise engage with my exegeses. All I read was verbiage. Three, you continued, over and over, to restate yourpersonal opinion Hi SOTT1: I just wanted to know something. Are you a teacher of Religion? Gal 4:16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?
MothandRust	Share to: #54
Rank：Forum Oracle Score：41550 Posts：1881 From：Australia Register：27/02/2004 11:21 PM	Re：Tongues: The 'Rest' and Isaiah 28 Date Posted：21/03/2007 8:08 PMCopy HTML Oh Luke... you've been PWNED DUDE! - Thoroughly! (Pwned is a relatively new internet buzzword that is used in online gaming and discussion boards; it's origins are often argued about but a comprehensive definition can be found at Urban Dictionary - Peace). I sound like a freaking Ian Fanboy here, but credit given where due I suppose... It's always fun to see someone pwned.. especially Revival types as remarkably ignorant as this one. His high-and-mighty attitude is nothing more than laughable... In six full size posts he did not respond to anything directly. If name calling and copious amounts of inane ranting counted for anything he'd be way ahead and I'd be winning. Lots of opinions here from someone who said in his original post "Please respond with a scriptural rebuttal NOT OPINION." Okay, here's my summary from a guy who takes an irregular delight in watching other people argue scripture. It's a sickness but what are ya gonna do? The amount of inconsistencies and contradictions in what he has said in the last week are too delicious not to comment on. Highlights were Lukey stating Revival tongues doctrine to be immature but at the same time agrees with it with relish. Luke said: agreed with Ian's interpretation (and disagreed at the same time) and then went on to say..."the scripture is however much more complex than a simple academic analysis can provide by way of explanation." Moth: This is the very same Luke who said that "he believes the simplicity that is in Christ should be evident without having to study greek etc. He said that "scripture should not be complicated and it should speak for itself"- ha! You're beyond help. Luke: The "Rest" that would be instituted upon the promised outpouring of the Holy Spirit. This we know and agree. Ian: didn't agree though, he said "The fullfilment of the biblical Sabbath will take place at the inauguration of the Kingdom of God in all its fullness." (So what is the next life Lukey... a rest from resting?) Luke said something weird about studying bark instead of forests and that it's the glory of kings to search out a godly matter but it's best not to be educated in such things. He then later says that education is fine as long as it's not academic. Luke quotes the following scripture (2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness) but cries foul when it is used for reproof too much... study it too much and GWM will label you a filthy academic and all sorts of other names. But the Bible says in Hosea 4:6 - My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee. (God's word matters, GWM). Luke quotes - 1Co 14:8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle? The word "sound" here is the same word used in John 3:8. "Phone" in the Greek Moth - See, this is what I've been saying. Every single reference of sound or language in the bible gets interpreted as tongues by the Revivalists. Fart, sneeze, sing, talk, rest (?), phone, language, babel, groaning, stammer, voice... they somehow manage to tie every single reference to meaning 'speaking in ecstatic tongues'. It's like JWs who rewrite every mention of God's name or title back to Jehovah. Every single reference... So what? Now tongues is an uncertain sound that when heard should cause you to back down from battle? Makes less sense than the usual tongues justifications. I thought you had your sword out at the start of this thread? Getting blunt. Luke - Ceasing from works = Holy Spirit Baptism = Salvation = Born again = Rest Moth says - You spent 6 huge chunks of text only to end up saying that (2+2) = (2-2) = (2x2) = 4, but it doesn't add up buddy. Maybe you should study your bible rather than waiting for inspiration. After all, It is available for reproof, doctrine and correction. 2 Tim 2:15 study to shew thyself approved unto God... (Oops is studying academic? I think it might be!) Let the scriptures speak! Instagram and Twitter: @mothpete
luke7_35	Share to: #55
Rank：Noob Score：260 Posts：10 From：Unknown Register：04/03/2007 12:51 PM	Re：Tongues: The 'Rest' and Isaiah 28 Date Posted：21/03/2007 9:24 PMCopy HTML Reply to : MothandRust OhLuke...you'vebeenPWNEDDUDE!- Thoroughly!(Pwnedis a relatively new internet buzzword that is used in online gaming and discussion boards; it's origins are often argued about but a comprehensive definition can be found atUrban Dictionary- Peace). I sound like a freaking Ian Fanboy here, but credit given where due I suppose...It's always fun to see someone pwned.. especially Revival types as remarkably Pwned ha Good one. Disagree though with the assessment. Though not surprised. The intent was not to engage SOTT! in a battle of the Theological Knowledge. That is his game not mine. I am a humble servant, not a scholar. I have my reward! SOTT1 on the other hand is a educated teacher. Ever learning! He has his reward also. I don't wan to get into a battle of wits, I fear I would be un-armed. But you know what. Jesus warned time and time again of people who would be blind leaders of the blind. Where is SOTT! leading you. The thing with RAT poison is that it is 95% Attractive 5% Arsnic. Which of us is eating what? You along with everyone on this site have been hurt, wronged or something. Moth you sound like you were hurt the most! I only hope my message was not lost in SOTT1's respons. Mat ffice:smarttags" />11:15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. I don't come on here much. I have a full life. I hope that people reading this stop for one moment to think if Jesus were sitting right there next to you as you type. Watching every key stroke. What would he advise you to do? Again if the measure of success is based on eloquence of speach than of course I loose. Da My goal was and is never to convince anyone. All am saying is this: Jesus Died! yes he really did. Jesus Died for you and for me. not to sit around indulging ourselves in our own pride. Moth my advice to you is to grow some hair on you chest get out from hiding behind your computer and join the REAL BATTLE being waged. To the rest of the poeple hurt. Dont let things get you down you are more than conquerers. Their are 6 000,000,000 poeple out there who need saving. If you dont like the revivalist interpretation. Great! Go and start your own revival. If you need comfort seek it from Jesus. NOT the Luke warm SOTT1 or the deeply conflicted Moth. These guys have an agenda and I dont think your well being is part of that. They will you somewhere you dont wanna go!! I have seen people killed, hung, lives really destroyed close friends. Stop playing the blame game it just is NOT healthy. Forgive, Forgive, Forgive for your sake forgive. Bye the way ; upon reading back over what the posts. Exactly the outcome I had hoped for. Wisdom is indeed Justified by ALL her Children!!! SOTT1 didn't see it neither did Moth; But they never did!! Bye for now Luke 7:35 Gal 4:16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?
MothandRust	Share to: #56
Rank：Forum Oracle Score：41550 Posts：1881 From：Australia Register：27/02/2004 11:21 PM	Re：Tongues: The 'Rest' and Isaiah 28 Date Posted：21/03/2007 9:45 PMCopy HTML Reply to : luke7_35 The intent was not to engage SOTT! in a battle of the Theological Knowledge. You started this thread by challenging anyone who would take it on... your 'sword' was drawn. YOU said "If I am wrong, please someone, anyone, everyone show me where!" Sounds like a theological challenge to me. You are the king of contradiction. I don't wan to get into a battle of wits, I fear I would be un-armed. Truer words have never been spoken, my man... you have no wit. Study some more before you go teaching hey? I bet those seven day adventists thought you were a piece of work. But you know what. Jesus warned time and time again of people who would be blind leaders of the blind. Where is SOTT! leading you. Me, I'm not a Christian, very different to SOTT and all I know about him is that his name is Ian T... so he isn't leading me anywhere. I just find his interpretation of scripture to be far more superior and believable than yours. The thing with RAT poison is that it is 95% Attractive 5% Arsnic. Which of us is eating what? Um... dunno, from where I'm standing your doctrine is all arsnic 100% You along with everyone on this site have been hurt, wronged or something. Moth you sound like you were hurt the most! Nah. I left of my own accord. Skipped out and joined other churches quite happily, then sometime after I decided I'd rather sleep in and enjoy my full life. My wife was wronged but she can't be bothered whinging about it anymore. I don't come on here much. I have a full life. I hope that people reading this stop for one moment to think if Jesus were sitting right there next to you as you type. Watching every key stroke. What would he advise you to do? He just whispered into my ear... he said "well done my good and faithful servant, you have come out and separated yourself from them". Again if the measure of success is based on eloquence of speach than of course I loose. Da My goal was and is never to convince anyone. Yes you'd 'loose' (sic). No, just some scriptural knowledge that made sense would have been fine. You spent a LOT of time NOT trying to convince us of anything... ??? All am saying is this:Jesus Died! yes he really did. Jesus Died for you and for me. not to sit around indulging ourselves in our own pride. That's what I think... he died. Long time ago. Whether he rose again and gave us magic powers ala the Revival way is yet to be proven via your arguments. Your deluded ramblings do very little to convince anyone. Moth my advice to you is to grow some hair on you chest get out from hiding behind your computer and join the REAL BATTLE being waged. Yes... with the trumpet of tongues! We fight with principalities eh... that can be easily done online. Their are 6 000,000,000 poeple out there who need saving. All 6 billion? minus one? You? All the rest are stuffed eh? Bye the way ; upon reading back over what the posts. Exactly the outcome I had hoped for. Wisdom is indeed Justified by ALL her Children!!! SOTT1 didn't see it neither did Moth; But they never did!! Oh, we fell into your cunning master plan! Gosh, you are so mental. Instagram and Twitter: @mothpete
Uncoolman	Share to: #57
Rank：Poster Venti III Score：10710 Posts：345 From：Unknown Register：05/04/2003 2:38 PM	Re：Tongues: The 'Rest' and Isaiah 28 Date Posted：22/03/2007 5:58 AMCopy HTML Reply to : luke7_35 'GWM', My interactions with you really have saddened me. I've not been exposed to such an alarming level of biblical and theological ignorance, coupled with misplaced arrogance and judgmentalism, in a very long time. You my friend, could well fit as something of a 'poster boy' for what is the worst about Revivalism. The intent was not to engage SOTT! in a battle of the Theological Knowledge. That is his game not mine. I am a humble servant, not a scholar. I have my reward! SOTT1 on the other hand is a educated teacher. Ever learning! He has his reward also. As has already been pointed out, you did come here to engage me. You even started a separate thread wherein you invited/challenged me to debate. Get a grasp of reality, man, and stop 'flip-flopping' with the truth. And, as for your backhanded comment about my supposed 'reward', I won't even deign to respond with what I think of that piece of spite. But you know what. Jesus warned time and time again of people who would be blind leaders of the blind. Where is SOTT! leading you. Along the 'paths of righteousness', my friend, for I am neither blind nor self-deluded. The thing with RAT poison is that it is 95% Attractive 5% Arsnic. Which of us is eating what? You guess. I only hope my message was not lost in SOTT1's respons. Mat 11:15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. Your 'message' was a pointless and self-serving ramble, 'GWM'. I'm confident that most people are more than capable of seeing it for what it is (even the current Revivalists). I don't come on here much. I have a full life. I hope that people reading this stop for one moment to think if Jesus were sitting right there next to you as you type. Watching every key stroke. What would he advise you to do? No, but when you do come here, you have to chose which one of three personalities to adopt, don't you? What do you think Jesus' thinks of that rather 'slippery' tactic? My goal was and is never to convince anyone. Read you initial posts again, then repent of your constant and obvious falsehoods. Jesus Died! yes he really did. Jesus Died for you and for me. not to sit around indulging ourselves in our own pride. And on this I fully agree. But this isn't now, and never has been about Jesus' vicarious and atoning death. This is about your unbiblical and heretical claim that unless a person speaks in 'tongues', they aren't saved! To the rest of the poeple hurt. Dont let things get you down you are more than conquerers. Their are 6 000,000,000 poeple out there who need saving. If you dont like the revivalist interpretation. Great! Go and start your own revival. If you need comfort seek it from Jesus. NOT the Luke warm SOTT1 or the deeply conflicted Moth. These guys have an agenda and I dont think your well being is part of that. They will you somewhere you dont wanna go!! 'Lukewarm', huh? The following info isn't intended to be a boast, and I had to really reflect in depth on whether or not I should share it publicly (given that I've not done so previously). But I came to the conclusion that you really are incapable of making sound judgements without the benefit of adequate knowledge, and such will continue to get you into trouble until you realise that you need to stop 'shooting from the hip' in such a presumptuous fashion. So please reflect on the following, and how such is supported by your labeling me, 'lukewarm'. First the 'religious': I study God's Word a minimum of three hours each and every day of the year, and I don't simply mean a 'skim' reading of it. Further, I pray for a minimum of one and a half hours each and every day of the year. And such prayer isn't simply unfocused 'babbling' along in 'tongues' while the mind wanders. Sometimes I'm called upon to preach. When I am, I commit at least twenty hours towards preparing each and every thirty minute sermon I deliver. Five of those hours are devoted to prayer that seeks God's blessing on the outcome of my task: changed lives. And, as I have mentioned here before, I tutor a number of theology undergraduates in biblical studies. I take this role VERY seriously, and so I'm prepared to commit the time that's needed by each and every student for them to fully understand their subject matter. I'm also actively engaged in apologetics and evangelism. My goal over the past decade has been to personally disciple at least ten people per year. So much for the strictly 'religious'. However, for the past eight years I've also been committed to helping others simply because it's the right thing to do. So, at various times, I've been engaged in: running non-religious youth groups for local kids in the community; assisting in caring for the homeless and chemically dependent in my wider community; engaged in advocacy for society's dispossessed and distressed. I've also gone overseas a few times to help those who've suffered from the effects of famine, war and disease. And then, of course, there's the fact that I'm a husband and father, and lastly, that I also have a full-time career. My life is fairly full, friend, and a significant 'chunk' of it is devoted to active Christian 'ministry' in a number of forms and contexts. I have seen people killed, hung, lives really destroyed close friends. Stop playing the blame game it just is NOT healthy. I would wager that my profession has exposed me to considerably more death, carnage, suffering and destruction than most have encountered; so I know full well the urgency of the task given to Christians in this life. Just perhaps you should be less presumptuous in your assumptions of others when compared with yourself? Bye the way ; upon reading back over what the posts. Exactly the outcome I had hoped for. Wisdom is indeed Justified by ALL her Children!!! SOTT1 didn't see it neither did Moth; But they never did!! If the outcome that you hoped for was to prove yourself incapable at handling God's Word responsibly, then I'm certain you've succeeded. What you've been 'preaching' isn't wisdom, my friend, but base ignorance. Again, please reflect on how you've been representing our Saviour here, and then repent. Ian didaktikon@gmail.com
old holborn	Share to: #58
Rank：Regular Member Score：4430 Posts：217 From：Unknown Register：27/11/2005 8:22 PM	Re：Tongues: The 'Rest' and Isaiah 28 Date Posted：22/03/2007 8:45 AMCopy HTML Reply to : SOTT1 My interactions with you reallyhavesaddened me. I've not been exposed to such an alarming level of biblical and theological ignorance, coupled with misplaced arrogance and judgmentalism, in a very long time. You my friend, could well fit as something of a 'poster boy' for what is the worst about Revivalism Luke warm?, I wish I had a fraction of you heat brother. and your patience with this guys rambling, from the first time he appeared has been a lesson to us all . I feel that I wasted 18 years listening to people like him ,now I am enjoying hearing the truth, and taking part in the kind of good works you describe, so neglected in those organisations, he represents. often sneered at in fact. I have been amazed at the mission support going on, localy and overseas, and the prayer support given constantly. I think you were quite right to tell him what a real hot walk is all about, although in his case I doubt it will make any difference. God bless. "But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord "
Sea Urchin	Share to: #59
Rank：Poster Venti III Score：9110 Posts：436 From：Australia Register：15/02/2007 7:34 AM	Re：Tongues: The 'Rest' and Isaiah 28 Date Posted：22/03/2007 11:15 AMCopy HTML Reply to : Brolga Thankyou OH,I was about to lift my keyboard finger to express much the same what you have, only I put up with it for 38 years. NowI have an open mind about things and "boy", it's been an eye opener .brolga Hey Brolga & old H, I have to agree with both of you - my eyes have also been opened and my mind freed. Didn't even know that I was 'blinkered' and my mind was 'closed' till the Lord was gracious enough to reveal things to me! I know I've said this before - but I'M SO HAPPY IN MY WALK IN THE LORD now that I know what liberty really means. I think Luke/GWM or whatever his name is has just been doing our heads in ! As for me I've got much better things to do than listen to his carryings on (practical things like serving others and applying what I read in the Bible to my life!) Stay cool! Sea Urchin Your unfailing love, O Lord, is as vast as the heavens; your faithfulness reaches beyond the clouds. Your righteousness is like the mighty mountains, your justice like the ocean depths.
Unkoolman	Share to: #60
Rank： Score：0 Posts：0 From：Unknown Register：11/02/2006 8:36 PM	Re：Tongues: The 'Rest' and Isaiah 28 Date Posted：22/03/2007 11:30 AMCopy HTML Reply to : Sea Urchin I think Luke/GWM or whatever his name is has just been doing our heads in ! As for me I've got much better things to do than listen to his carryings on (practical things like serving others and applying what I read in the Bible to my life!) Yes, in fact he has been using a total of three user-names over the last couple of weeks and is no longer welcome to post on this forum. His admission for one of the extra names was because he lost his password, but that does not account for the third user-name. All further posts will be deleted if and when he tries to log-in in under yet another handle. Moddy. Unkoolmail "As man is, so is his God; And thus is God, oft strangely odd" - Goethe "Emancipate yourself from mental slavery. None but ourselves can free our minds." - Bob Marley
no1home	Share to: #61
Rank：Rookier Score：1740 Posts：72 From：Unknown Register：01/02/2007 5:29 PM	Re：Tongues: The 'Rest' and Isaiah 28 Date Posted：22/03/2007 2:16 PMCopy HTML Reply to : Unkoolman Yes, in fact he has been using a total of three user-names over the last couple of weeks Says it all doesn't it! Methinks someone who can't abide by a few simple forum rules is hardly in a position to be preaching God at anyone... and it certainly showed in his typical Revivalist thinking - when legitimately challenged on scriptural issues, revert to the good old "I'm approaching this *spiritually* and you're just looking at it *intellectually*, therefore my argument is more valid". On that basis anyone can preach whatever they like as long as they're 'spiritually' convinced it's right! and that's how we got tangled up in Revivalist doctrine in the first place.
MothandRust	Share to: #62
Rank：Forum Oracle Score：41550 Posts：1881 From：Australia Register：27/02/2004 11:21 PM	Re：Tongues: The 'Rest' and Isaiah 28 Date Posted：22/03/2007 2:43 PMCopy HTML Reply to : misswooty When legitimately challenged on scriptural issues, revert to the good old "I'm approaching thisspirituallyand you're just looking at itintellectually, therefore my argument is more valid". On that basis anyone can preach whatever they like as long as they're 'spiritually' convinced it's right! and that's how we got tangled up in Revivalist doctrine in the first place. There's a certain obstinate foolhardyness to coming onto an ex-denominational board in the first place to challenge its members on previously believed doctrine. With his lack of tact I doubt he's finding any converts in his off-line battle, so that's somewhat comforting. Debating Lukey on the topic of tongues was like trying to play chess with a pigeon - it knocks the pieces over, craps on the board, and flys back to its flock to claim victory. Instagram and Twitter: @mothpete
Sea Urchin	Share to: #63
Rank：Poster Venti III Score：9110 Posts：436 From：Australia Register：15/02/2007 7:34 AM	Re：Tongues: The 'Rest' and Isaiah 28 Date Posted：23/03/2007 7:09 PMCopy HTML Reply to : MothandRust Debating Lukey on the topic of tongues was like trying to play chess with a pigeon - it knocks the pieces over, craps on the board, and flys back to its flock to claim victory. ________________________________________________________________ Hey Mr Moth man, I think a pigeon is more intelligent than ' GWM/Lukey or whatever-his- name-is-this-week' actually! He sounds like an Adelaide RF pastor - same attitude. Same manner of speaking down to people - the same '" knock 'em over, plop all over 'em and then boast about it to the rest of the ' flock' type attitude" . Anyway, good riddance I say. Please forgive me for saying this but I've noticed a change in you of late also - is that shell getting a little softer? I'm not having a go - love you just as you are Mr Mothy! Stay cool, Sea urchin Your unfailing love, O Lord, is as vast as the heavens; your faithfulness reaches beyond the clouds. Your righteousness is like the mighty mountains, your justice like the ocean depths.