As you were typing to ask the question of me I believe I have fully declared my hand in my posting (check the time I made it).

I did have a brief look at your site, a bit heavy for me , I'm a simple man. I say simple not stupid. No reflection on your site.

Like I said I'm really enjoying a full and challenging walk and mix with a sufficiantly diverse group of christians. As a matter of fact I'm putting in some time with some Arabic speaking Sudanese. They know nothing of Lloyds doctorine or JK's attitude.

They arrived from Egypt in late 2005 and we have been assisting them to set up there own church, which now numbers 50 people.

They do however believe the same things as myself , which is yes - water baptism- repentance-recieving the Holy Ghost.

Sott1 for the record I'm really happy with my experience. I get challenged daily and I know I'm led of the Spirit. I can distinguish the difference when I'm dull and when I'm on the money. I don't think I'm unique, but I do get the feeling or impression some time, that all some people have known is Church culture, organisation, admin. and it's that , that they are bitter about.  It sounds so corny to say this but if a person has never Known JESUS and walked in the SPIRIT then you are drawing comparrisons with and from things they have never experienced.   The walk was only ever known in theory not genuinly experienced. I hope I don't sound arrogant, I may sound niave to some, brainwashed to others. But I'm not into Dogma, I'm into the great relationship which I have and the blessing flows through every other part of my life. You see I know first hand what the heart ach of the other side of this. I lived that part the first 25 years.

I'll think I'll finish here for now Steve Atkin reckons I need A MEDAL for the longets winded poster.

Ian, I do remember that from the early days that you were challenged by stuff. Can you remeber the day you came to me because you had been slayed in the spirit at the Park Meeting.  You were quite taken back that such a thing could happen, perhaps that put you on a path of questioning (thats only a guess). yes I remember. sorry about the crappy icons I don't know how to do the fancy stuff.

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I'm off to Canberra for the weekend, I will give some thought to the question.

I can't say I want to get into it with you though! Thanks anyway

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Hi, Frank.Youareavoiding me, aren't you?C'mon, given from what you've promoted here that you'reabsolutely certainwhat your fellowship believes and teaches about salvation is fully biblical, what have you got to lose by engaging me in a Scriptural discussion?God bless,Ian

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I just spent 1hr typing you a response and when I pressed post reply the system just shut down.

If it some how doesn't come through, in a nutshell I dont wish to play your game. I know this is your sporting arena , it's not mine (at this stage).

I would however like to thank you on your explaination on Exegesis & Eisegesis , I also was wondering.

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Reply to : franks ghostHi, Frank.I just spent 1hr typing you a response and when I pressed post reply the system just shut down.It happens.If it some how doesn't come through, in a nutshell I dont wish to play your game. I know this is your sporting arena , it's not mine (at this stage).Trust me, this subject matter is anythingbuta game so far as I'm concernedAt stake is the worth and meaning that Scripture plays in determining belief, and in case you haven't guessed already, I take thatveryseriously!I would however like to thank you on your explaination on Exegesis & Eisegesis , I also was wonderingYou're welcome. The way I see it though, you're morally obliged to engage with me given tha

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It happens.

yes unfortunately I gave my post some real thought because I knew each word and sentence would be carefully scrutinized.

Trust me, this subject matter is anything but a game

Again maybe the wrong turn of phrase, however knowing how many years you have had to perfect your craft of critiqueing the written word, I felt that I could represent nothing but sport to you. I keep wondering what would you be have been able to do before the written word in a time of the gospel being taken 1500 years (wasn't it?) word of mouth.

so far as I'm concerned At stake is the worth and meaning that Scripture plays in determining belief, and in case you haven't guessed already, I take that very seriously!

I would never underestimate how seriously you take anything.

 The way I see it though, you're morally obliged to engage with me given tha

As far as being morally obliged to engage, that is drawing a very long bow. I have read your beliefs and as you say I'm a Toowooba RF'er. As you have said in your email to me you suffered roling bans from the Brisbane Forum for a number of years. What on earth makes you think I want to tie myself up in endless debate on Tongues, Salvation & perhaps a miriad of topics that you have a very strong opinion on.

So for me the answer is still no thanks Ian.  My walk is clearly on a very different path to the one you are on. I have enjoyed some massive changes in the last 2-3 years.

Health, Relationships with all my children, business, general frienships. Everything for me is moving to a new place with my Saviour Jesus.

And yes praying in the Spirit (tongues) for me as well as lots praying in my understanding, these have been very fervent (in and out of the closet) further supported by plenty of fasting, fellowship, reading and revelation by God.

Thats it for me ps this still reads nothing like the original lost message. I think it was little to RAW.

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Man, Ian you are a real piece work, you ooze humility. " so I refuse to bow the knee to Gods written word". like I said I'm not intersted in debating you.

Ian I have read your commentaries and do not recognize your AUTHORITY over my walk or relationship with God.

You are clearly loaded with judgement and ready to start firing,  you will have plenty of targets out there in pentecost with your anti -tongues message.

As for me and my house we will serve the LORD.

Once a ninga always a ninga ha! ready and spoiling for a spar, just moved to a different medium-expert in the word.

 

 

 

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yabba dabba doo. And you want to have an open discussion on what I believe!!

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 I have signed in as anonymous

Frank and Sott

I dont know about anybody else that is looking in ( it could be just me ) but this to me is getting very booooring

give it a rest

Quite honestly you are both as bad as one another      You both have a different view    Neither of you are going to change it

God bless to you both

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I have signed in as anonymousFrank and SottI dont know about anybody else that is looking in ( it could be just me ) but this to me is getting very booooringgive it a restQuite honestly you are both as bad as one another You both have a different view Neither of you are going to change itGod bless to you both

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Thanks anon

God Bless you

who let the dog out, who who who

Dog can understand where you are coming from however this is a forum for all views ( yours inclusive) however lets be a little less "dog"matic about things.

sorry if that was a bit paw

ha ha ha lol

dog

earth   mirth it rhymes

dog you are a poet anmd you didnt even no it, every verse is getting worse

now now no need to curse

yo whats up my dog

Wow! You take offence over the most trivial of things. I used a lighthearted metaphor that parodies the general pattern of 'tongues', and this proves to be the ultimate 'stumbling-block' for you?! Why don't we start our discussion by looking at this most marvelous of phenomena -- 'tongues' -- and seeing where the biblical evidence points? Or is 'tongues' a taboo subject for you?

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This is great! I love it and I thoroughly approve of Ian's discussion here (sorry Troy, if you're reading - lol). Of course I don't believe in either of their arguments but I'd sooner jump to Ian's side if I had a gun to my head. It is interesting Frank hasn't contributed anything for his doctrine that is supposedly available for reproof and etc. This should be his forte, and I'm sure there are many of his peers watching. He probably doesn't want to look like too much of an egg... and it isn't why he's here. I dig that.

 It's a bit like sci-fi nerds arguing over which flys faster...

 the Millenium Falcon or the USS Enterprise.

Neither of them actually exist.

This particular thread was addressed to Frank, written by Ian, and it's a Revival Fellowship discussion forum. Is this a surprise to anyone that Revival creed will be questioned?  Ian is doing fine job and I actually find the logic impeccable that he's putting forward from a mainstream Christian perspective. Tongues is a keystone stumbling block and has and will continue to be a contentious issue for ex-Revivians. Their scriptural doesn't stand to logic and criticism. It did when we left it unquestioned for as long as we did, but so does anything if it's kept in a shroud of ignorance. Revivalists use their own doctrine as the sole yardstick, therefore it can't be knocked over - for them.

I'm always perplexed by people who jump into a discussion and say it's boring. Read something else for god's sake. Just because we've discussed it before doesn't mean it shouldn't be discussed again. Start up another thread on another topic if you're keen to.

My two centson tongues: It seems bloody obvious to me that Saul/Paul was giving instructions as to how to organise public meetings in a multi-lingual environment. A few King James interpreters come along and throw an english interpretation over everything related to 'language' and 2000 years later we have whole churches wondering if they should speak in gobbledygook or something? Amazing. That is my conclusion after 20 years of study on the subject (see link below), but if anything better comes along and sits right with me I'll see if I can take it on board. That's about as much as I could hope for Frank and Ian, but I know Ian would never admit error and Frank and his Co. are 'taught' never to admit error. Stalemate already! But at least if Frank engaged in the conversation to balance out the debate it might give others some food for thought.

Frank has stated that he doesn't want to go there. I certainly don't blame him... the simple thesis that I put forward in the previous paragraph (and whole-heartedly believe) would be torn to shreds by Ian if I were to go head to head to him. Ian is certainly no idiot, and I'm sure he knows why no one is engaging him here, but this is his thread and anyone who replies to it is pretty fair game as far as I can see (I probably am now, but then again, I'm not a Revivalist).

Funny how arrogant people seem to be when they offer an alternative. I got very defensive when a Christian Apologist questioned me on my blog, and I thought him arrogant. The truth was, I didn't want to side with him on the 'gay' issue because his arguments were actually 'good'. I myself haven't really sensed self-righteousness in Ian; he's just offered an alternative and is sticking to his guns. He's dedicated to playing by the rules of a bible literalist. If Frank and others believe in the inspirational truth of their bibles they shouldn't really fear discussing the finer points.

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Reply to : SOTT1As you were typing to ask the question of me I believe I have fully declared my hand in my posting (check the time I made it).I did have a brief look at your site, a bit heavy for me , I'm a simple man. I say simple not stupid. No reflection on your site.Like I said I'm really enjoying a full and challenging walk and mix with a sufficiantly diverse group of christians. As a matter of fact I'm putting in some time with some Arabic speaking Sudanese. They know nothing of Lloyds doctorine or JK's attitude.They arrived from Egypt in late 2005 and we have been assisting them to set up there own church, which now numbers 50 people.They do however believe the same things as myself , which is yes - water baptism- repentance-recieving the Holy Ghost.Sott1 for the record I'm really happy with my experie

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Do you think that the old prophet of 1 Kings 13 knew he was a false prophet?

The man of God should have ignored him. If he had he might not have been eaten by the lion.

2Ti 4:17 Notwithstanding the Lord stood with me, and strengthened me; that by me the preaching might be fully known, and that all the Gentiles might hear: and I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion.

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Reply to : franks ghostReply to : earth5Hi all below is a post by Andy who I think runs/moderates this forum (will stand corrected)can we help in anywayregardsEarth5Date Posted:13/03/2007 12:01:13 AMHi Earth, i dropped some $ in the kitty, hope others do the same.Well done, Frank. You've just financially supported Troy Waller's rc.cultweb.net siteAny chance that I can get you to threw a few dollars Drew's way to support the upkeep of 'PleaseConsider'?Blessings,Ian

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Not at this stage Ian,

I do however appreciate a little more of where you are coming from and appreciate your skill in Greek, as well as your general ability to form an argument.

Your ability to argue without the distraction of becoming personal is very good (thanks), a few well placed quips now and then, but without that it's all a bit wordy.

If there is one thing I am learning from all that are posting is the ability to stay with the point, when I read back over my comments it's easy to see how when challenged I revert to personal attack. So many things to keep an eye on now.

Thanks to all the posters for that. Moth your awesome.

Ian, I am delighted you finished off your last posting with a comment on Fruitfull evidence.

I bought a copy of Bill Johnsons book "When Heaven invades Earth" yesterday having just completed "The supernatural Power of a Transformed Mind" last week.

What I'm seeing here is a challenge to all Christindom to move beyond words and lets see some power.

 Paul opened that letter in 1 corinth 2 "not in excellecy of speech but in power and demonstration..................".

If there is one thing I'm seeking is to be a relevant & powerful Christian.

Thankyou

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Reply to : franks ghostHi, Frank.Time to ask again: how about testing your RF beliefs on 'salvation' against the witness of Scripture? FWIW, I remain fully open to the possibility of being proven wrong by others on a range of issues, should someone be able to demonstrate errors in my beliefs from the Bible. How about you?God bless,Ian

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For the moment I will decline your kind offer to debate.

As I said I have read some of your info and over the last evening printed off your most recent study on Tongues, there is a lot to digest.

I have been interested in the comments of the more articulate of which there are few. Still waiting on Moth for that matter. "Tongues for preaching"

If and when I choose to go down this path with you IAN, you will be the first to know.

Until then, my walk and relationship continues to grow. I will further will add that non of your postings have yet to convince me that I trust you to be the one to enlighten, even with your ability to teach Greak to the undergraduates.

I love and enjoy the ability to pray (in Tongues), worship in Spirit & Undertanding (as limited as you may find it to be), sing, read fellowship with friends from all walks of life.

______________________

Just a bit about me

For the record, I was a leader in the Baptist Church as a young guy, however I didn't have a clue about anything much. 7 years in the world a mountain of drugs & grog, I found myself face to face with RCI doctrine. Baptised in the sea at Palm Beach at 10.00 pm one night Aug 81. A warm fuzzy but no power. A week later while on my own having a day of prayer and fasting, I was on my knees and praying in English when all of a sudden I found myself speaking in a different language. I have always known that to be tongues.

The miracle for me wasn't so much that I spoke in Tongues (which was amazing and still is) it was the the fact that I recieved an understanding. Gods word opened up. Some one else spoke of that on thread today.

At this point I can almost here your voice saying "experential, experential, lets see want the greek says about this. Here he goes again with his softly softly RF Doctorine. "                         

This experience with Jesus and the ensuing 25 years and the ability to pray time and time again in this Tongue has carried me through.

I am more than happy to be an active member of this forum and I will respond to whoever I choose. My choice, Ian is to let you do your thing. If and when I wish to I'll respond.

My respect and understanding for many has grown enormously as i watch and see the responses to threads. A real lesson in communication skills.

Thankyou to all those with the courage to post , especially when it means being a little vulnerable and sharing a bit of yourself. That includes Luke & MOth

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Reply to : franks ghostFrank, again.For the moment I will decline your kind offer to debate.Sure.As I said I have read some of your info and over the last evening printed off your most recent study on Tongues, there is a lot to digest.Digest away, and should you need some clarification, feel free to askI have been interested in the comments of the more articulate of which there are few. Still waiting on Moth for that matter. "Tongues for preaching"...If and when I choose to go down this path with you IAN, you will be the first to know.I guess time will tell, then.Until then, my walk and relationship continues to grow. I will further will add that non of your postings have yet to convince me that I

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Sure. But do you equally 'love'/'enjoy' the possibility that you've placed yourself under Paul's "Galatian curse"? I wonder,have you even considered the ramifications if such is the case?

Maybe you could elaborate on this curse for me.

Sure. But you've also shared elsewhere on this forum, that you've only had a 'real' and 'vibrant' experience of relationship with God over the past three years. In fact, you went so far as to lament your first 25 years worth of Revivalist history. I guess one would be justified in questioning just how much 'understanding' you received as a consequence of your initial experience.

I'm sorry to quote moth again, but as I develop the ability to think, "when I go back over some of my past posts, I'm not sure I agree with all that I say". I don't recall such lament perhaps, I'll have a look. I have however found that the last 2-3 years have been very special. But it would be remiss of me to reject previous years, just because of the current blessing. As far as questioning past understanding is concerned thats fine, there's been plenty of peaks and troughs. But as far as connectiong that to the experience and praying in Tongues.  I'm sorry that's a comment that seems to leap across a life experience so to make a point about Tongues.

An experience with Jesus you say? Okay. Now would I be correct in inferring from this, that 'tongues' has functioned as something of a 'crutch' for you? Can I ask how was your 'normal' prayer life over the same period? Did you spend as much time communing with God in English, or did 'intentional' prayer take a back-seat ride to all the 'tongues' stuff? And what of the development of spiritual 'fruit' over the same length of time? How great has been the harvest on that score? I ask these questions, as I'm attempting to build something of a context for your current comments.

This is a really good point Ian, because one of the things that I strongly believe is, as much as I prayed in the Spirit (Tongues) over 25 years, I have come to a place in recent times of expressing myself much more susinctly in English when seeking my God. In fact I verbalise my praise and worship much more than i used to. As well building a prayer life that recognises the authority of God as well as the Abba father relationship. So yes as my understanding develops so does my depth of prayer and type of prayer. Not being limited to Tongues exclusively.

Yes I think the foundation of the Newer and most recent blessings are founded in Praying much more in my understanding as well as Tongues.

Yes again, if you were to ask those who have known me for years the Fruit in my life has been limited. Lots of material stuff, family, business & things. Being honest with myself, but limited fruit (of the SPIRIT).  Hence my enthusiasm to embark on this journey. My hearts desire and prayer is to manifest all the gifts & fruit.

So there you go theres a bit more.

hi SOTT,

yes franks Ghost is still very much alive (bit down with the flu today it seems) but over all very alive and doing very well, still keeps up to date on whats on the board and will comment if and when he feels he wants/needs to

God Bless

Earth5

I'm sure you love tongues. So did I... it felt great to have magical linguistic powers with a direct channel to god (well, until it crossed my mind that there was nothing magical about the whole thing and that it was completely out of context and irrational), and as I've said, it doesn't worry me one Iota if anyone does or doesn't do it. If the Revival churches suddenly came to their senses and dropped the tongues doctrine to a normal and rational 'grace' salvation stand, then they'd probably get more numbers... and that sort of frightens me more! So, um... keep the tongues lol. It's keeping people going to more rational and balanced churches.

If this guy(the one speaking audibly)-(apparently on the side of the screen-) doesnt and never has believed in Jesus, where is this "tongues" ability from? and then... what if he does become a Christian and want the pentecostal "tongues"? This looks exacly the same as that!How do u know the difference? Is it REALLY THE PROOF of Jesus' Holy SPIRIT living in you?So what do u think of that UPC and Revival and other tongues-for-salvation people?

If this is really an example of mindless "tongues" -(eg- not knowing what u said while u spoke it-)then it looks just like- or even MORE legitimate then a lot of "tongues" Ive seen! If that is really" tongues" and u dont believe in Jesus as your Saviour and never did- then here's proof ( along with Emily's "speakin in tongues" (also on u tube)-it proves that "tongues" is not proof that one has the Holy Spirit from God.

If u like this video clip, watch ehenocha- " I speak in tongues." She raises a totally valid point about "tongues" not necessarily being from God.

LOL I felt something! It sounded like an orgasm in hebrew! FUNNY! And so true. I've always taken "tongues" to mean languages ACTUALLY spoken on EARTH between people. In 'ACTS' the apostles speak in tongues - and the towns folk say something like "Hey, look at these guys, they're speaking my native language, but aren't they simple locals?"

Haha, good job. I was just listening to George Carlin's audiobook ("When Will Jesus Bring The Porkchops?") before I started this video. They covered this glossolalia study on Skeptics' Guide To The Universe episode #67. You can download it from the iTunes Music Store.

Ok, well I think I've said this already, but:
Just as you don't need to be a Buddhist to meditate, you don't need to be Christian to speak in tongues. In fact, you don't need to believe in God or any type of mysticism to speak in tongues, although it probably helps. Basically, I think these types of spiritual experiences come from within.