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Date Posted:28/02/2007 9:04 AMCopy HTML

'morning, big fella.Now that we've successfully gotten the introductions out of the way, and we've established that we knew each other from decades past; I'd like to work through a few concepts with youTo begin with, I've noted that you've pretty much limited your comments here to comparisons of the Toowoomba RF against, for example, the more socially dysfunctional assemblies within the broader RF (and many would likely agree that there are plenty of these). However, you've also shared a little of your opinions with respect to personal spirituality and so forth, and all of this is both good and proper. But my interest was piqued by one (seemingly positive) comment that you made elsewhere on this site, regarding the RF's "salvation message". This left me wondering whether you still believe that the Toowoomba assembly is "on the money" when it promotes the concept thatbiblicalsalvation equals: (1) repentance, followed by (2) immersionist baptism in water, followed by (3) speaking in tongues as theuniversal'sign' of having received the Holy Spirit?To be honest, the cruel and lasting effects ofsociallydysfunctional church groups aside, I believe it's just as important (if not more so) to consider the cruel and lasting effects ofdoctrinallydysfunctional church teachings. And this causes me to pause and reflect on the RF once more...Looking forward to hearing your views.God bless,Ian
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Re:To Frank's Ghost (biblical salvation =?)

Date Posted:28/02/2007 9:05 AMCopy HTML

'morning, big fella.

Now that we've successfully gotten the introductions out of the way, and we've established that we knew each other from decades past; I'd like to work through a few concepts with you

To begin with, I've noted that you've pretty much limited your comments here to comparisons of the Toowoomba RF against, for example, the more socially dysfunctional assemblies within the broader RF (and many would likely agree that there are plenty of these). However, you've also shared a little of your opinions with respect to personal spirituality and so forth, and all of this is both good and proper. But my interest was piqued by one (seemingly positive) comment that you made elsewhere on this site, regarding the RF's "salvation message". This left me wondering whether you still believe that the Toowoomba assembly is "on the money" when it promotes the concept that biblical salvation equals: (1) repentance, followed by (2) immersionist baptism in water, followed by (3) speaking in tongues as the universal 'sign' of having received the Holy Spirit?

To be honest, the cruel and lasting effects of socially dysfunctional church groups aside, I believe it's just as important (if not more so) to consider the cruel and lasting effects of doctrinally dysfunctional church teachings. And this causes me to pause and reflect on the RF once more...

Looking forward to hearing your views.

God bless,

Ian
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Re:To Frank's Ghost (biblical salvation =?)

Date Posted:28/02/2007 9:37 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : SOTT1

As you were typing to ask the question of me I believe I have fully declared my hand in my posting (check the time I made it).

I did have a brief look at your site, a bit heavy for me , I'm a simple man. I say simple not stupid. No reflection on your site.

Like I said I'm really enjoying a full and challenging walk and mix with a sufficiantly diverse group of christians. As a matter of fact I'm putting in some time with some Arabic speaking Sudanese. They know nothing of Lloyds doctorine or JK's attitude.

They arrived from Egypt in late 2005 and we have been assisting them to set up there own church, which now numbers 50 people.

They do however believe the same things as myself , which is yes - water baptism- repentance-recieving the Holy Ghost.

Sott1 for the record I'm really happy with my experience. I get challenged daily and I know I'm led of the Spirit. I can distinguish the difference when I'm dull and when I'm on the money. I don't think I'm unique, but I do get the feeling or impression some time, that all some people have known is Church culture, organisation, admin. and it's that , that they are bitter about.  It sounds so corny to say this but if a person has never Known JESUS and walked in the SPIRIT then you are drawing comparrisons with and from things they have never experienced.   The walk was only ever known in theory not genuinly experienced. I hope I don't sound arrogant, I may sound niave to some, brainwashed to others. But I'm not into Dogma, I'm into the great relationship which I have and the blessing flows through every other part of my life. You see I know first hand what the heart ach of the other side of this. I lived that part the first 25 years.

I'll think I'll finish here for now Steve Atkin reckons I need A MEDAL for the longets winded poster.

Ian, I do remember that from the early days that you were challenged by stuff. Can you remeber the day you came to me because you had been slayed in the spirit at the Park Meeting.  You were quite taken back that such a thing could happen, perhaps that put you on a path of questioning (thats only a guess). yes I remember. sorry about the crappy icons I don't know how to do the fancy stuff.


it is the glory of God to conceal a matter but the honour of kings to search it out.
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Re:To Frank's Ghost (biblical salvation =?)

Date Posted:28/02/2007 11:29 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : franks ghost

Hi, Frank.

As you were typing to ask the question of me I believe I have fully declared my hand in my posting (check the time I made it).

Yes, I've had a quick look. This now prompts me to ask this: are you prepared to have your doctrinal beliefs challenged by me from Scripture? The reason I've put my question this way, is that a very large number of the Revivalists that I've had much to do with over the years knowingly or otherwise have subordinated the Bible to their experience. Or, to put this another way, they've tended to read the Bible through their experience, rather than their experience through the Bible.

I did have a brief look at your site, a bit heavy for me , I'm a simple man. I say simple not stupid. No reflection on your site.

Sure. But if I may: being a 'simple' person doesn't excuse you before God when it comes to promoting what I believe are unbiblical teachings. I tremble for you when I think of Paul's dire warning in Galatians 1:8-9!

Like I said I'm really enjoying a full and challenging walk and mix with a sufficiantly diverse group of christians. As a matter of fact I'm putting in some time with some Arabic speaking Sudanese. They know nothing of Lloyds doctorine or JK's attitude...They arrived from Egypt in late 2005 and we have been assisting them to set up there own church, which now numbers 50 people...They do however believe the same things as myself , which is yes - water baptism- repentance-recieving the Holy Ghost.

Sure. However, given what you believe it takes to 'become' a Christian in the first place (specifically the untested assumption that "speaking in 'tongues'" equals "receiving the Holy Spirit"), would it be fair for me to suggest that you probably wouldn't accept a profession of Christian belief from a non-'tongues' speaker? In other words, a Christian who makes no profession to 'tongues' would be less than Christian in your eyes?

Sott1 for the record I'm really happy with my experience.

Sure, but the issue isn't whether you're happy with your experience or not. The issue remains whether what you call the 'gospel' is, in fact, the gospel. If it isn't, than it's quite likely that God thinks much less of the worth of your experience than you do. Just a thought to ponder.

I get challenged daily and I know I'm led of the Spirit. I can distinguish the difference when I'm dull and when I'm on the money. I don't think I'm unique, but I do get the feeling or impression some time, that all some people have known is Church culture, organisation, admin. and it's that , that they are bitter about.

I'm not for one moment suggesting that you're not a Christian. What I am suggesting; however, is that it's quite possible that the moment when you actually became a Christian just may be quite different from when you believe you did. In any case, I do agree completely with your comment about some people having only known a specific church culture, and subsequently experiencing a measure of bitterness when they've left said culture. FWIW, I've ministered to heaps of former Revivalists whose entire 'faith' was built on little more than a personal experience mediated through the culture and interpretative lens of a single Revivalist denomination. Interestingly, a good many of them later met Jesus 'again' for the first time (to borrow a quote from a well known liberal theologian) after having left their particular 'brand' of Revivalism. But I do accept that such is likely to be completely beyond your range of personal experiences, so I don't expect you to fully understand the significance of this, at this time.

It sounds so corny to say this but if a person has never Known JESUS and walked in the SPIRIT then you are drawing comparrisons with and from things they have never experienced. The walk was only ever known in theory not genuinly experienced.

Agreed, and that's precisely my point! If one never met Jesus personally when in the RCI/RF/GRC/CAI or whatever--if one's 'relationship' in church is based on simply a 'sign' (and a very subjective one at that) rather than on a Saviour--then such a one has never been saved to begin with! Jesus gives the Spirit to those who come to him; if one has somehow managed to avoid entering into relationship with the Saviour to begin with, then one can't possibly lay claim to possessing the Spirit, or to walking in the spirit. What one can; however, lay claim to is religion. Ergo what Jesus intended when he said, "I NEVER knew you" in Matthew 7:21-23.

I hope I don't sound arrogant, I may sound niave to some, brainwashed to others. But I'm not into Dogma, I'm into the great relationship which I have and the blessing flows through every other part of my life. You see I know first hand what the heart ach of the other side of this. I lived that part the first 25 years.

Whilst you may not believe yourself to be "into dogma", it remains true nonetheless that RF dogma (never mind RF practice) often hinders (if not prevents) many people from experiencing the truth of what you claim vis personal relationship with Christ. Perhaps your saving relationship with Christ started MUCH later than you think?

I'll think I'll finish here for now Steve Atkin reckons I need A MEDAL for the longets winded poster.

I think you've a ways to go before you 'pip' me on that score!

Ian, I do remember that from the early days that you were challenged by stuff. Can you remeber the day you came to me because you had been slayed in the spirit at the Park Meeting.

Yep. And as I recall, you told me not to tell anyone else in the assembly about it

You were quite taken back that such a thing could happen, perhaps that put you on a path of questioning (thats only a guess).

Not really. What put me on my 'quest' for better biblical/theological understanding (and not simply 'questioning') were the myriad of inconsistencies that I found between what the RCI preached and practiced, and what the Bible clearly recorded. Almost 20 years later I'm certainly far better informed than I was as a young Revivalist, and importantly, my relationship with Christ today can't even be rightly compared with what I had in my Brisbane and Toowoomba RCI days.

So in closing, might I ask you again: are you prepared to having me challenge your Revivalist beliefs from Scripture?

God bless,

Ian
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Re:To Frank's Ghost (biblical salvation =?)

Date Posted:28/02/2007 9:02 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : SOTT1


I'm off to Canberra for the weekend, I will give some thought to the question.

I can't say I want to get into it with you though! Thanks anyway


it is the glory of God to conceal a matter but the honour of kings to search it out.
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Re:To Frank's Ghost (biblical salvation =?)

Date Posted:01/03/2007 5:36 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : franks ghost

Hi, Frank.

I'm off to Canberra for the weekend, I will give some thought to the question.

Thanks.

I can't say I want to get into it with you though! Thanks anyway

But why? It's the Word of God that we'll be discussing Do you accept, as I do, that it's Scripture that should determine what we believe? Or does one's personal experience 'pip' the Bible in this regard? If you accept the former, than I don't see what the issue is. But if you lean towards the latter, then you're really not all that different from the JW's, Mormons and a host of others when it comes to the issue of ultimate authority. And that would really open a can of worms!

Looking forward to hearing from you next week.

God bless,

Ian
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Re:To Frank's Ghost (biblical salvation =?)

Date Posted:05/03/2007 10:01 AMCopy HTML


Hi, Frank.

You are avoiding me, aren't you? C'mon, given from what you've promoted here that you're absolutely certain what your fellowship believes and teaches about salvation is fully biblical, what have you got to lose by engaging me in a Scriptural discussion?

God bless,

Ian
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Re:To Frank's Ghost (biblical salvation =?)

Date Posted:05/03/2007 11:15 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : SOTT1

Hi, Frank.Youareavoiding me, aren't you?C'mon, given from what you've promoted here that you'reabsolutely certainwhat your fellowship believes and teaches about salvation is fully biblical, what have you got to lose by engaging me in a Scriptural discussion?God bless,Ian

I just spent 1hr typing you a response and when I pressed post reply the system just shut down.

If it some how doesn't come through, in a nutshell I dont wish to play your game. I know this is your sporting arena , it's not mine (at this stage).

I would however like to thank you on your explaination on Exegesis & Eisegesis , I also was wondering.

it is the glory of God to conceal a matter but the honour of kings to search it out.
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Re:To Frank's Ghost (biblical salvation =?)

Date Posted:05/03/2007 11:23 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : franks ghost

Hi, Frank.

I just spent 1hr typing you a response and when I pressed post reply the system just shut down.

It happens.

If it some how doesn't come through, in a nutshell I dont wish to play your game. I know this is your sporting arena , it's not mine (at this stage).

Trust me, this subject matter is anything but a game so far as I'm concerned At stake is the worth and meaning that Scripture plays in determining belief, and in case you haven't guessed already, I take that very seriously!

I would however like to thank you on your explaination on Exegesis & Eisegesis , I also was wondering

You're welcome. The way I see it though, you're morally obliged to engage with me given that you believe what you preach to be both biblical and correct. I know for a fact that what you preach is neither biblical nor correct, so I'm morally obliged to engage with you.

Detente?

Ian
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Re:To Frank's Ghost (biblical salvation =?)

Date Posted:05/03/2007 11:46 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : SOTT1

Reply to : franks ghostHi, Frank.I just spent 1hr typing you a response and when I pressed post reply the system just shut down.It happens.If it some how doesn't come through, in a nutshell I dont wish to play your game. I know this is your sporting arena , it's not mine (at this stage).Trust me, this subject matter is anythingbuta game so far as I'm concernedAt stake is the worth and meaning that Scripture plays in determining belief, and in case you haven't guessed already, I take thatveryseriously!I would however like to thank you on your explaination on Exegesis & Eisegesis , I also was wonderingYou're welcome. The way I see it though, you're morally obliged to engage with me given tha
The longer answer was much more suitable. But I don't have time to redo. maybe I'll have another go at another time. I'm working
it is the glory of God to conceal a matter but the honour of kings to search it out.
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Re:To Frank's Ghost (biblical salvation =?)

Date Posted:05/03/2007 4:51 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : SOTT1


It happens.

yes unfortunately I gave my post some real thought because I knew each word and sentence would be carefully scrutinized.

Trust me, this subject matter is anything but a game

Again maybe the wrong turn of phrase, however knowing how many years you have had to perfect your craft of critiqueing the written word, I felt that I could represent nothing but sport to you. I keep wondering what would you be have been able to do before the written word in a time of the gospel being taken 1500 years (wasn't it?) word of mouth.

so far as I'm concerned At stake is the worth and meaning that Scripture plays in determining belief, and in case you haven't guessed already, I take that very seriously!

I would never underestimate how seriously you take anything.

 The way I see it though, you're morally obliged to engage with me given tha

As far as being morally obliged to engage, that is drawing a very long bow. I have read your beliefs and as you say I'm a Toowooba RF'er. As you have said in your email to me you suffered roling bans from the Brisbane Forum for a number of years. What on earth makes you think I want to tie myself up in endless debate on Tongues, Salvation & perhaps a miriad of topics that you have a very strong opinion on.

So for me the answer is still no thanks Ian.  My walk is clearly on a very different path to the one you are on. I have enjoyed some massive changes in the last 2-3 years.

Health, Relationships with all my children, business, general frienships. Everything for me is moving to a new place with my Saviour Jesus.

And yes praying in the Spirit (tongues) for me as well as lots praying in my understanding, these have been very fervent (in and out of the closet) further supported by plenty of fasting, fellowship, reading and revelation by God.

Thats it for me ps this still reads nothing like the original lost message. I think it was little to RAW.


it is the glory of God to conceal a matter but the honour of kings to search it out.
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Re:To Frank's Ghost (biblical salvation =?)

Date Posted:06/03/2007 6:10 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : franks ghost

Morning, Frank.

It happens.

yes unfortunately I gave my post some real thought because I knew each word and sentence would be carefully scrutinized.

We're discussing the most important subject in the world, so far as I'm concerned.

Trust me, this subject matter is anything but a game

Again maybe the wrong turn of phrase, however knowing how many years you have had to perfect your craft of critiqueing the written word, I felt that I could represent nothing but sport to you. I keep wondering what would you be have been able to do before the written word in a time of the gospel being taken 1500 years (wasn't it?) word of mouth.

What I'm seeking from you, is simple. It's for you to both explain for me, and justify from Scripture, your beliefs concerning salvation. I wouldn't have thought that doing so would prove such a difficult matter for you. And you need to understand that my interest in your fellowship isn't sociological, it's doctrinal. In other words, the relative merits of the Toowoomba RF when compared to the Adelaide RF are moot so far as I'm concerned. What does concern me is the heresy that's regularly foistered upon the ignorant, both within and without your fellowship. I recommend that you read Galatians 1 again to see why it is that I'm so concerned.

The second part to your question is a little strange. Christians have always had access to God's Word written, Frank, even pre Gutenberg's press. In any case, I've been regularly called upon to preach in a number of church settings over the years, and apparently with some measure of success. Now the reason for the success has had less to do with my prowess as an orator, and more to do with the fact that my homilies are thoroughly grounded in Scripture wrestled with through prayer. So for me, whether by word or by letter, the issue remains one of having a very strong understanding of both the content and the context of Scripture. Such is after all, the sword of the Spirit

so far as I'm concerned At stake is the worth and meaning that Scripture plays in determining belief, and in case you haven't guessed already, I take that very seriously!

I would never underestimate how seriously you take anything.

The degree to my 'seriousness' ad 'granite-like' demenour depends entirely upon the consequences that would result from error.

The way I see it though, you're morally obliged to engage with me given that...

As far as being morally obliged to engage, that is drawing a very long bow. I have read your beliefs and as you say I'm a Toowooba RF'er. As you have said in your email to me you suffered roling bans from the Brisbane Forum for a number of years. What on earth makes you think I want to tie myself up in endless debate on Tongues, Salvation & perhaps a miriad of topics that you have a very strong opinion on.

Well, I suppose the 'endlessness' of the conversation/debate would depend entirely on how well your argument is made from, and defended by, Scripture. Notice, that unlike the BRF forum, this one doesn't remove my posts because the 'opposing' team is incapable of marshalling a Scriptural rebuttal.

So for me the answer is still no thanks Ian. My walk is clearly on a very different path to the one you are on. I have enjoyed some massive changes in the last 2-3 years.

Yes, it's clear that your path is quite different from my own, but that remains your choice. What a pity that the 'massive changes' that you've made in your life over the past few years apparently haven't extended to you placing yourself under the authority of Scripture. That saddens me deeply.

Health, Relationships with all my children, business, general frienships. Everything for me is moving to a new place with my Saviour Jesus.

Not everything, Frank. You still refuse to bow the knee to the authority of God's Word written

And yes praying in the Spirit (tongues) for me as well as lots praying in my understanding, these have been very fervent (in and out of the closet) further supported by plenty of fasting, fellowship, reading and revelation by God.

And yet for all this you would apparently refuse to test your personal 'revelation' against the one true objective measure that God in his wisdom chose to leave with us -- his written Word. Further, you present the same arrogance demonstrated by Revivalist pastors everywhere, in that you refuse to test your views against someone external to your fellowship.

Frank, to be honest the changes that you've described in your life thus far are certainly positive and you should be commended for making them. However, in spite of this, they amount to little more than 'window-dressing'. Reflect: when Jesus was regularly challenged by the religionists of his day, he not once appealed to the fact that he was God incarnate to settle a matter. His personal 'experience' of God wasn't the measure of truth that he applied. No, he silenced the religious time and again with the words: "...it stands written!" So why is it that what was definitive for Jesus apparently isn't definitive for you?

God bless,

Ian
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Re:To Frank's Ghost (biblical salvation =?)

Date Posted:06/03/2007 8:04 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : SOTT1


Man, Ian you are a real piece work, you ooze humility. " so I refuse to bow the knee to Gods written word". like I said I'm not intersted in debating you.

Ian I have read your commentaries and do not recognize your AUTHORITY over my walk or relationship with God.

You are clearly loaded with judgement and ready to start firing,  you will have plenty of targets out there in pentecost with your anti -tongues message.

As for me and my house we will serve the LORD.

Once a ninga always a ninga ha! ready and spoiling for a spar, just moved to a different medium-expert in the word.

 

 

 


it is the glory of God to conceal a matter but the honour of kings to search it out.
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Re:To Frank's Ghost (biblical salvation =?)

Date Posted:06/03/2007 9:19 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : franks ghost

Morning, Frank.

Man, Ian you are a real piece work, you ooze humility. " so I refuse to bow the knee to Gods written word". like I said I'm not intersted in debating you.

My humility, or supposed lack thereof, isn't what's at issue here

Ian I have read your commentaries and do not recognize your AUTHORITY over my walk or relationship with God.

Agreed, I've absolutely no authority over your relationship with God at all. However, God has called and gifted me to teach his Word, and Scripture quite clearly admonishes me to confront and confute heretics who would promote religious legalism over and against gospel liberty. But the issue that remains between us is this: does God's Word have any authority over your walk at all? THAT is what I'm trying to determine

You are clearly loaded with judgement and ready to start firing, you will have plenty of targets out there in pentecost with your anti-tongues message.

Brother, I don't judge the 1.5 billion Christians in the world who don't speak in 'tongues' as being unsaved and deluded. But the last time that I checked, such was precisely the POV espoused by your fellowship. Unfortunately, given that you refuse to tell me what it is that you properly believe about all of this, I can only assume that you hold to the same stance as does your church. So might I reasonably ask: who is the person who is 'loaded' with judgment? Is it me for questioning you and your views (but NOT your salvation), or is it you for denying the eternal security of over a billion people because they don't repeat, "...yabba dabba doo..." over and over? I truly wonder.

And, for what it's worth, I don't hold to an 'anti-tongues' position at all. The gift of 'tongues' certainly has its place in Christian theology, a place which I fully support and encourage. It's just that where 'tongues' fits isn't where you think it fits.

As for me and my house we will serve the LORD.

Me too

Once a ninga always a ninga ha! ready and spoiling for a spar, just moved to a different medium-expert in the word.

Nope. Just trying to find out what you believe, and feeling a teensy concerned that you're not prepared to be forthcoming on the score. But here's what I think. I reckon you've known about this forum for quite a while. I also believe that you came here expecting to be something of an apologist for the Toowoomba RF's 'softly-softly' approach to 'church culture'. Because you and yours aren't quite so socially dysfunctional as the 'average' RF assembly, it's quite likely that you thought very few people would take you to task. I also believe that you probably didn't expect to come across me here. But, of course, all of this is pure speculation on my part.

To be honest, Frank, I'm quite concerned that you're not prepared to having your beliefs challenged. This speaks volumes concerning your own humility.

God bless,

Ian
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Re:To Frank's Ghost (biblical salvation =?)

Date Posted:06/03/2007 9:37 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : SOTT1

yabba dabba doo. And you want to have an open discussion on what I believe!!
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Re:To Frank's Ghost (biblical salvation =?)

Date Posted:06/03/2007 9:46 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : franks ghost



Reply to : SOTT1yabba dabba doo.And you want to have an open discussion on what I believe!!





Frank,

Wow! You take offence over the most trivial of things. I used a lighthearted metaphor that parodies the general pattern of 'tongues', and this proves to be the ultimate 'stumbling-block' for you?!

Why don't we start our discussion by looking at this most marvelous of phenomena -- 'tongues' -- and seeing where the biblical evidence points? Or is 'tongues' a taboo subject for you?

Blessings,

Ian
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Re:To Frank's Ghost (biblical salvation =?)

Date Posted:06/03/2007 9:51 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : SOTT1

Unfortunately, I pushed the wrong button (and I don't mean yours, Frank) when I attempted to add to the above post! You're offended that I said "...yabba dabba doo..." with respect to 'tongues', but Paul did precisely the same thing to the sectarian Corinthians! When he equated 'tongues' being perceived as barbarian speech, he was using a pun based on Greek paronomasia: the word for 'barbarian' in Greek being a play on the fact that their speech sounded like 'bar, bar' to Greek ears!

Ian
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Re:To Frank's Ghost (biblical salvation =?)

Date Posted:06/03/2007 10:14 AMCopy HTML

 I have signed in as anonymous

Frank and Sott

I dont know about anybody else that is looking in ( it could be just me ) but this to me is getting very booooring

give it a rest

Quite honestly you are both as bad as one another      You both have a different view    Neither of you are going to change it

God bless to you both

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Re:To Frank's Ghost (biblical salvation =?)

Date Posted:06/03/2007 10:33 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : Anonymous

I have signed in as anonymousFrank and SottI dont know about anybody else that is looking in ( it could be just me ) but this to me is getting very booooringgive it a restQuite honestly you are both as bad as one another You both have a different view Neither of you are going to change itGod bless to you both

Thanks anon

God Bless you

it is the glory of God to conceal a matter but the honour of kings to search it out.
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Re:To Frank's Ghost (biblical salvation =?)

Date Posted:06/03/2007 11:05 AMCopy HTML


Hey, Anon.

If this conversation bores you, then you really don't need to visit this thread and read it But, Frank, I don't think you can really afford to disregard the thread

Blessings,

Ian
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Re:To Frank's Ghost (biblical salvation =?)

Date Posted:06/03/2007 1:43 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : SOTT1



Hey, Anon.If this conversation bores you, then you really don't need to visit this thread and read itBut, Frank, I don't thinkyoucan really afford to disregard the threadBlessings,Ian




Some of us have had the tongues discussion over and over again, and don't want to go there. There are scriptures to back up both sides. Are you doing this in love to care for Franks soul, and all the RFers who are reading? Well, if you are , let them search this out in their own time. Moth has posted all the links to your please consider site, its been publicized well. Just relax, be still, etc

PS sorry Old Holbourn that I could you a boring old git, or something like that. I wouldn't have done it to your face, so i suppose I shouldn't really do it here!
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Re:To Frank's Ghost (biblical salvation =?)

Date Posted:06/03/2007 1:55 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : big girl

Hi, Big Girl.

Some of us have had the tongues discussion over and over again, and don't want to go there.

Then don't read this thread, after all no-one is forcing you to

There are scriptures to back up both sides.

Sorry, but 'no', there isn't.

Are you doing this in love to care for Franks soul, and all the RFers who are reading?

Yep. I wouldn't be wasting my keystrokes if I wasn't.

Well, if you are , let them search this out in their own time. Moth has posted all the links to your please consider site, its been publicized well. Just relax, be still, etc

Unfortunately, BG, the option of sitting back and doing nothing isn't one that's open to me. Junk theology (like junk thinking) doesn't just go away by itself.

God bless,

Ian
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Re:To Frank's Ghost (biblical salvation =?)

Date Posted:06/03/2007 2:18 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : SOTT1





Then don't read this thread, after all no-one is forcing you to

Just trying to explain why no one wants to engage you..
Unfortunately, BG, the option of sitting back and doing nothing isn't one that's open to me. Junk theology (like junk thinking) doesn't just go away by itself.
Ian, you're not sitting back and doing nothing. You've thrown your bread upon the waters, and done your bit. Please don't judge people for not debating this with you. Personally, for me, your interpretation of the scriptures is the one I've always wanted to believe, and you've enough stuff there to be convincing.

Howver the revvie interpretation is just as convincing. I'm not that thick, and I really spent years trying to get myself around the black and white scriptures about holy spirit = speaking in tongues
They have a pretty convincing argument.
sorry, I can't seem to figure out how to quote and reply properly. Am a little thick, perhaps)
Text to be made bold
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Re:To Frank's Ghost (biblical salvation =?)

Date Posted:06/03/2007 2:56 PMCopy HTML

What brain-drain!

There is a lot of talk around here about the terrible LEGALISM practiced in the Revival churches. Yet what do we see here.... people nit-bloody-picking about how well they are following the bible.

I put to you that any of you that are bent on following the bible are exhibiting the essence of just that..... LEGALISM.

As accomplished as Ian may be at coming up with a bunch of conclusions, there are many others who have studied the same book for a lifetime and come up with a whole different picture. It is a dysfunctional way to live your life to take the fundamentalist view of the bible and think it is appropriate is relevent today. The book is incredibly vague and contradictory on a range of issues. What a waste of time it is to be gauging every bloody thought or action on those texts!

And no, that doesn't mean I'm a wild and rebrobate sin-freak without a moral code in life. It is a pretty damn reasonable conclusion when you see a thousand and one people earnestly following the book only to find their whole lives turned to shit. Seriously!......many.many lives shipwrecked all whilst beholding the great light of the Word to help them avoid the reefs.

And Ian, what is it that drives you??? Have you ever stopped and considered what is behind this compulsive energy of yours to be the biblical mega-man and disect everything you encounter with your far-out knowledge. Man, would you do well do have a bit of psychoanalysis, and get to the source of all this??? What a heavy dude you are!

Anyway, I'm off for now. Back to your bible-bashing.


Happy to be........Dogmafree!
"for there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so" Shakespeare (Hamlet, Act 2, Scene 2)
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Re:To Frank's Ghost (biblical salvation =?)

Date Posted:06/03/2007 3:02 PMCopy HTML

who let the dog out, who who who

Dog can understand where you are coming from however this is a forum for all views ( yours inclusive) however lets be a little less "dog"matic about things.

sorry if that was a bit paw

 

ha ha ha lol

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Re:To Frank's Ghost (biblical salvation =?)

Date Posted:06/03/2007 3:13 PMCopy HTML

LOL Earth, I like your mirth!
"for there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so" Shakespeare (Hamlet, Act 2, Scene 2)
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Re:To Frank's Ghost (biblical salvation =?)

Date Posted:06/03/2007 3:32 PMCopy HTML

dog

earth   mirth it rhymes

dog you are a poet anmd you didnt even no it, every verse is getting worse

 

now now no need to curse

 

yo whats up my dog

 

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Re:To Frank's Ghost (biblical salvation =?)

Date Posted:06/03/2007 4:11 PMCopy HTML

Wow! You take offence over the most trivial of things. I used a lighthearted metaphor that parodies the general pattern of 'tongues', and this proves to be the ultimate 'stumbling-block' for you?! Why don't we start our discussion by looking at this most marvelous of phenomena -- 'tongues' -- and seeing where the biblical evidence points? Or is 'tongues' a taboo subject for you?


This is great! I love it and I thoroughly approve of Ian's discussion here (sorry Troy, if you're reading - lol). Of course I don't believe in either of their arguments but I'd sooner jump to Ian's side if I had a gun to my head. It is interesting Frank hasn't contributed anything for his doctrine that is supposedly available for reproof and etc. This should be his forte, and I'm sure there are many of his peers watching. He probably doesn't want to look like too much of an egg... and it isn't why he's here. I dig that.

 It's a bit like sci-fi nerds arguing over which flys faster...

 the Millenium Falcon or the USS Enterprise.

Neither of them actually exist.

This particular thread was addressed to Frank, written by Ian, and it's a Revival Fellowship discussion forum. Is this a surprise to anyone that Revival creed will be questioned?  Ian is doing fine job and I actually find the logic impeccable that he's putting forward from a mainstream Christian perspective. Tongues is a keystone stumbling block and has and will continue to be a contentious issue for ex-Revivians. Their scriptural doesn't stand to logic and criticism. It did when we left it unquestioned for as long as we did, but so does anything if it's kept in a shroud of ignorance. Revivalists use their own doctrine as the sole yardstick, therefore it can't be knocked over - for them.

I'm always perplexed by people who jump into a discussion and say it's boring. Read something else for god's sake. Just because we've discussed it before doesn't mean it shouldn't be discussed again. Start up another thread on another topic if you're keen to.

My two centson tongues: It seems bloody obvious to me that Saul/Paul was giving instructions as to how to organise public meetings in a multi-lingual environment. A few King James interpreters come along and throw an english interpretation over everything related to 'language' and 2000 years later we have whole churches wondering if they should speak in gobbledygook or something? Amazing. That is my conclusion after 20 years of study on the subject (see link below), but if anything better comes along and sits right with me I'll see if I can take it on board. That's about as much as I could hope for Frank and Ian, but I know Ian would never admit error and Frank and his Co. are 'taught' never to admit error. Stalemate already! But at least if Frank engaged in the conversation to balance out the debate it might give others some food for thought.

Frank has stated that he doesn't want to go there. I certainly don't blame him... the simple thesis that I put forward in the previous paragraph (and whole-heartedly believe) would be torn to shreds by Ian if I were to go head to head to him. Ian is certainly no idiot, and I'm sure he knows why no one is engaging him here, but this is his thread and anyone who replies to it is pretty fair game as far as I can see (I probably am now, but then again, I'm not a Revivalist).

Funny how arrogant people seem to be when they offer an alternative. I got very defensive when a Christian Apologist questioned me on my blog, and I thought him arrogant. The truth was, I didn't want to side with him on the 'gay' issue because his arguments were actually 'good'. I myself haven't really sensed self-righteousness in Ian; he's just offered an alternative and is sticking to his guns. He's dedicated to playing by the rules of a bible literalist. If Frank and others believe in the inspirational truth of their bibles they shouldn't really fear discussing the finer points.

[LINK SiteName=Mothrust: Movies and Modern Myth Target=_blank]http://aintchristian.blogspot.com.au/[/LINK] Be nice, for everyone that you meet is fighting a harder battle - Anita Roddick
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Re:To Frank's Ghost (biblical salvation =?)

Date Posted:07/03/2007 5:38 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : dogmafree

Hello, Dogma Free (a misnomer if ever I've heard one).

What brain-drain! There is a lot of talk around here about the terrible LEGALISM practiced in the Revival churches. Yet what do we see here.... people nit-bloody-picking about how well they are following the bible.

And here was me thinking the discussion had more to do with working out what the Bible actually says

I put to you that any of you that are bent on following the bible are exhibiting the essence of just that..... LEGALISM.

And I would put it to you that anyone who professes to be Christian but doesn't follow the Bible would be exhibiting signs of antinomianism

As accomplished as Ian may be at coming up with a bunch of conclusions, there are many others who have studied the same book for a lifetime and come up with a whole different picture.

Agreed. But they don't come here, do they But seriously, everyone approaches the Bible from a position of faith: (a) either that it's true, or (b) that it isn't. The fact is that presuppositions shape the way we approach any matter, and not simply religion.

It is a dysfunctional way to live your life to take the fundamentalist view of the bible and think it is appropriate is relevent today. The book is incredibly vague and contradictory on a range of issues. What a waste of time it is to be gauging every bloody thought or action on those texts!

What a very dogmatic thing for someone to say! Are you certain you're really 'Dogma Free'? Perhaps a better title for you might be 'Dogma Reduced'? Or 'Dogma Redirected'? Or... Anyway, I'm not a fundamentalist. Nor am I a biblical 'literalist' as Moth has implied above. Whilst I certainly lean towards a conservative approach on a range of issues, many of my positions would be thought of a scandalous by some, and as being 'liberal' by many other biblical conservatives. And personally, I've found studying the biblical texts to be anything but a waste of time. Perhaps that might be because I'm a little more open-minded then some?

And no, that doesn't mean I'm a wild and rebrobate sin-freak without a moral code in life. It is a pretty damn reasonable conclusion when you see a thousand and one people earnestly following the book only to find their whole lives turned to shit. Seriously!......many.many lives shipwrecked all whilst beholding the great light of the Word to help them avoid the reefs.

That's true. And have you ever stopped to consider 'why' all the carnage? I'll give you a hint: intolerance bred of ignorance

And Ian, what is it that drives you???

Trust me, big fella, I'm not anywhere near as 'driven' as you might think! After all, how many posts have I made here? And how many have you?

Have you ever stopped and considered what is behind this compulsive energy of yours to be the biblical mega-man and disect everything you encounter with your far-out knowledge.

Compulsive? Interesting comment. What I'm actually doing is providing a little commentary on a subject about which I've studied a little. Is it such a bad thing that I actually have an informed opinion to offer here, rather than the more general misinformed POV that one generally encounters on matters such as these. You judge.

Man, would you do well do have a bit of psychoanalysis, and get to the source of all this??? What a heavy dude you are!

I'm married to a Counsellor, and she thinks I'm A-OK!

Anyway, I'm off for now. Back to your bible-bashing.

Bye, and back to yours.

Ian
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Re:To Frank's Ghost (biblical salvation =?)

Date Posted:07/03/2007 6:00 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : big girl

Hi, Big Girl.

Just trying to explain why no one wants to engage you.

The only 'no-one' that I'm interested in engaging with at the moment is Frank, hence the fact that this thread was directed at him. And I certainly understand why he's avoiding said engagement

Unfortunately, BG, the option of sitting back and doing nothing isn't one that's open to me. Junk theology (like junk thinking) doesn't just go away by itself.

Ian, you're not sitting back and doing nothing. You've thrown your bread upon the waters, and done your bit. Please don't judge people for not debating this with you.

I'm not judging anyone, and I've not really judged anyone. What I've done is question one person's belief system--a system which he seems very keen to promote here--and then asked whether or not that person pays more than lip service to the authority that Scripture in determining what a Christian should believe.

Personally, for me, your interpretation of the scriptures is the one I've always wanted to believe, and you've enough stuff there to be convincing.

Apparently not, given that you've mentioned twice previously that the position of the RCI/RF has just as much biblical warrant as my own

Howver the revvie interpretation is just as convincing.

Oops. Three times!

I'm not that thick, and I really spent years trying to get myself around the black and white scriptures about holy spirit = speaking in tongues. They have a pretty convincing argument.

The fact that you still believe as much indicates that I've not engaged with the subject anywhere near well enough to date. I'll say this again: there is not a single passage in Scripture that supports the Revivalist position on 'tongues' equalling the Holy Spirit. What Revivalists have done is lift discrete biblical verses from their respective contexts (linguistic, literary, cultural and historical), then added a heaped tablespoon of inference, to create position statements that any first year theology undergraduate could shred without the least amount of difficulty. Frank knows as much, which is why he refuses to be drawn into a discussion on the topic with me. But if you've concerns that certain passages support Revivalist teaching, then mention which ones and I'll demonstrate--convincingly, I believe--why they don't.

sorry, I can't seem to figure out how to quote and reply properly. Am a little thick, perhaps)

You're not thick, you just need to understand how to use square brackets a little better

God bless,

Ian
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Re:To Frank's Ghost (biblical salvation =?)

Date Posted:07/03/2007 1:17 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : franks ghost

Reply to : SOTT1As you were typing to ask the question of me I believe I have fully declared my hand in my posting (check the time I made it).I did have a brief look at your site, a bit heavy for me , I'm a simple man. I say simple not stupid. No reflection on your site.Like I said I'm really enjoying a full and challenging walk and mix with a sufficiantly diverse group of christians. As a matter of fact I'm putting in some time with some Arabic speaking Sudanese. They know nothing of Lloyds doctorine or JK's attitude.They arrived from Egypt in late 2005 and we have been assisting them to set up there own church, which now numbers 50 people.They do however believe the same things as myself , which is yes - water baptism- repentance-recieving the Holy Ghost.Sott1 for the record I'm really happy with my experie

Do you think that the old prophet of 1 Kings 13 knew he was a false prophet?

The man of God should have ignored him. If he had he might not have been eaten by the lion.

2Ti 4:17 Notwithstanding the Lord stood with me, and strengthened me; that by me the preaching might be fully known, and that all the Gentiles might hear: and I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion.

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Re:To Frank's Ghost (biblical salvation =?)

Date Posted:07/03/2007 1:21 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : Anonymous



Reply to : franks ghostReply to : SOTT1As you were typing to ask the question of me I believe I have fully declared my hand in my posting (check the time I made it).I did have a brief look at your site, a bit heavy for me , I'm a simple man. I say simple not stupid. No reflection on your site.Like I said I'm really enjoying a full and challenging walk and mix with a sufficiantly diverse group of christians. As a matter of fact I'm putting in some time with some Arabic speaking Sudanese. They know nothing of Lloyds doctorine or JK's attitude.They arrived from Egypt in late 2005 and we have been assisting them to set up there own church, which now numbers 50 people.They do however believe the same things as myself , which is yes - water baptism- repentance-recieving the Holy Ghost.Sott1 for the record I'm really happy with m





Huh?
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Re:To Frank's Ghost (biblical salvation =?)

Date Posted:07/03/2007 2:01 PMCopy HTML

BG :I'm not that thick, and I really spent years trying to get myself around the black and white scriptures about holy spirit = speaking in tongues. They have a pretty convincing argument.

SOTT:But if you've concerns that certain passages support Revivalist teaching, then mention which ones and I'll demonstrate--convincingly, I believe--why they don't.

Hi Ian,

I really couldn't be bothered any more. I'm sick of the bible wrestling needed to sort all this out.

I agree with dogmas post the other day: "As accomplished as Ian may be at coming up with a bunch of conclusions, there are many others who have studied the same book for a lifetime and come up with a whole different picture. It is a dysfunctional way to live your life to take the fundamentalist view of the bible and think it is appropriate is relevent today. The book is incredibly vague and contradictory on a range of issues. What a waste of time it is to be gauging every bloody thought or action on those texts! "

I should'nt have jumped into this thread anyway, none of my business. I think i like the Universal Laws, one of which is "allowing".
Signing off , have a nice long weekend!
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Re:To Frank's Ghost (biblical salvation =?)

Date Posted:08/03/2007 7:22 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : big girl

Hi, Big Girl.

I really couldn't be bothered any more. I'm sick of the bible wrestling needed to sort all this out.

Okay, it's your choice. The fact is, though, it doesn't take much in the way of wrestling with Scripture to sort the matter out at all. All it takes is a brief demonstration that proves Revivalists read into the Bible texts what they hope to find, rather than reading out what's actually there.

God bless,

Ian
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Re:To Frank's Ghost (biblical salvation =?)

Date Posted:13/03/2007 11:57 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : SOTT1

Reply to : franks ghostReply to : earth5Hi all below is a post by Andy who I think runs/moderates this forum (will stand corrected)can we help in anywayregardsEarth5Date Posted:13/03/2007 12:01:13 AMHi Earth, i dropped some $ in the kitty, hope others do the same.Well done, Frank. You've just financially supported Troy Waller's rc.cultweb.net siteAny chance that I can get you to threw a few dollars Drew's way to support the upkeep of 'PleaseConsider'?Blessings,Ian

Not at this stage Ian,

I do however appreciate a little more of where you are coming from and appreciate your skill in Greek, as well as your general ability to form an argument.

Your ability to argue without the distraction of becoming personal is very good (thanks), a few well placed quips now and then, but without that it's all a bit wordy.

If there is one thing I am learning from all that are posting is the ability to stay with the point, when I read back over my comments it's easy to see how when challenged I revert to personal attack. So many things to keep an eye on now.

Thanks to all the posters for that. Moth your awesome.

Ian, I am delighted you finished off your last posting with a comment on Fruitfull evidence.

I bought a copy of Bill Johnsons book "When Heaven invades Earth" yesterday having just completed "The supernatural Power of a Transformed Mind" last week.

What I'm seeing here is a challenge to all Christindom to move beyond words and lets see some power.

 Paul opened that letter in 1 corinth 2 "not in excellecy of speech but in power and demonstration..................".

If there is one thing I'm seeking is to be a relevant & powerful Christian.

Thankyou

it is the glory of God to conceal a matter but the honour of kings to search it out.
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Re:To Frank's Ghost (biblical salvation =?)

Date Posted:13/03/2007 12:35 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : earth5

Hello, E5.

Ian I do not believe FG will go down that track with you, and is in turn offering a bit of an olive leaf.

Sure. However, Frank's Ghost has demonstrated a few times here, that he's happy enough challenging the perceptions of others' with respect to his fellowship, so should he be immune from having his own perceptions challenged by me? Further, I've noted that FG ends all of his posts with the following biblical quote: it is the glory of God to conceal a matter but the honour of kings to search it out. So let's put the theory into practice, and really search out the truth of this matter. Or, to put this another way, let's see if the deeds will match the rhetoric

He is on a journey of discovery (a very exciting journey may i add) Instead of confronting try and encourage, I know in your way this is what you are trying to do however "more flys with honey" I think is the quote. (in part)

I'm not particularly interested in 'catching FG flies' at the moment. Nope, but I'm very interested in learning just how Frank's Ghost would try to defend the heresy that he both preaches and supports, by appealing to Scripture. I've used the 'h' word intentionally.

I have spent a wee bit of time with FG personally and on the phone and net and believe me he is on a great and very exciting journey

I've no doubt that he is. But for all this it seems to me that FG's not really prepared to consult the printed itinerary anywhere near closely enough with respect to said journey

God bless,

Ian
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Re:To Frank's Ghost (biblical salvation =?)

Date Posted:13/03/2007 1:15 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : SOTT1

Reply to : franks ghostHi, Frank.Time to ask again: how about testing your RF beliefs on 'salvation' against the witness of Scripture? FWIW, I remain fully open to the possibility of being proven wrong by others on a range of issues, should someone be able to demonstrate errors in my beliefs from the Bible. How about you?God bless,Ian

For the moment I will decline your kind offer to debate.

As I said I have read some of your info and over the last evening printed off your most recent study on Tongues, there is a lot to digest.

I have been interested in the comments of the more articulate of which there are few. Still waiting on Moth for that matter. "Tongues for preaching"

If and when I choose to go down this path with you IAN, you will be the first to know.

Until then, my walk and relationship continues to grow. I will further will add that non of your postings have yet to convince me that I trust you to be the one to enlighten, even with your ability to teach Greak to the undergraduates.

I love and enjoy the ability to pray (in Tongues), worship in Spirit & Undertanding (as limited as you may find it to be), sing, read fellowship with friends from all walks of life.

______________________

Just a bit about me

For the record, I was a leader in the Baptist Church as a young guy, however I didn't have a clue about anything much. 7 years in the world a mountain of drugs & grog, I found myself face to face with RCI doctrine. Baptised in the sea at Palm Beach at 10.00 pm one night Aug 81. A warm fuzzy but no power. A week later while on my own having a day of prayer and fasting, I was on my knees and praying in English when all of a sudden I found myself speaking in a different language. I have always known that to be tongues.

The miracle for me wasn't so much that I spoke in Tongues (which was amazing and still is) it was the the fact that I recieved an understanding. Gods word opened up. Some one else spoke of that on thread today.

At this point I can almost here your voice saying "experential, experential, lets see want the greek says about this. Here he goes again with his softly softly RF Doctorine. "                         

This experience with Jesus and the ensuing 25 years and the ability to pray time and time again in this Tongue has carried me through.

I am more than happy to be an active member of this forum and I will respond to whoever I choose. My choice, Ian is to let you do your thing. If and when I wish to I'll respond.

My respect and understanding for many has grown enormously as i watch and see the responses to threads. A real lesson in communication skills.

Thankyou to all those with the courage to post , especially when it means being a little vulnerable and sharing a bit of yourself. That includes Luke & MOth

 

 

 

 

it is the glory of God to conceal a matter but the honour of kings to search it out.
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Re:To Frank's Ghost (biblical salvation =?)

Date Posted:13/03/2007 1:42 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : franks ghost

Frank, again.

For the moment I will decline your kind offer to debate.

Sure.

As I said I have read some of your info and over the last evening printed off your most recent study on Tongues, there is a lot to digest.

Digest away, and should you need some clarification, feel free to ask

I have been interested in the comments of the more articulate of which there are few. Still waiting on Moth for that matter. "Tongues for preaching"...If and when I choose to go down this path with you IAN, you will be the first to know.

I guess time will tell, then.

Until then, my walk and relationship continues to grow. I will further will add that non of your postings have yet to convince me that I trust you to be the one to enlighten, even with your ability to teach Greak to the undergraduates.

An interesting and somewhat amusing jibe Perhaps you should run a few of my Greek 'exegeses' past a couple of your trusted RF pastors for some informed comment and grammatical evaluation

I love and enjoy the ability to pray (in Tongues), worship in Spirit & Undertanding (as limited as you may find it to be), sing, read fellowship with friends from all walks of life.

Sure. But do you equally 'love'/'enjoy' the possibility that you've placed yourself under Paul's "Galatian curse"? I wonder,have you even considered the ramifications if such is the case?

For the record, I was a leader in the Baptist Church as a young guy, however I didn't have a clue about anything much. 7 years in the world a mountain of drugs & grog, I found myself face to face with RCI doctrine. Baptised in the sea at Palm Beach at 10.00 pm one night Aug 81. A warm fuzzy but no power. A week later while on my own having a day of prayer and fasting, I was on my knees and praying in English when all of a sudden I found myself speaking in a different language. I have always known that to be tongues

Okay.

The miracle for me wasn't so much that I spoke in Tongues (which was amazing and still is) it was the the fact that I recieved an understanding. Gods word opened up. Some one else spoke of that on thread today.

Sure. But you've also shared elsewhere on this forum, that you've only had a 'real' and 'vibrant' experience of relationship with God over the past three years. In fact, you went so far as to lament your first 25 years worth of Revivalist history. I guess one would be justified in questioning just how much 'understanding' you received as a consequence of your initial experience.

At this point I can almost here your voice saying "experential, experential, lets see want the greek says about this. Here he goes again with his softly softly RF Doctorine."

Nope. Just me trying to reconcile the other things you've already shared elsewhere, with this current lot above.

This experience with Jesus and the ensuing 25 years and the ability to pray time and time again in this Tongue has carried me through.

An experience with Jesus you say? Okay. Now would I be correct in inferring from this, that 'tongues' has functioned as something of a 'crutch' for you? Can I ask how was your 'normal' prayer life over the same period? Did you spend as much time communing with God in English, or did 'intentional' prayer take a back-seat ride to all the 'tongues' stuff? And what of the development of spiritual 'fruit' over the same length of time? How great has been the harvest on that score? I ask these questions, as I'm attempting to build something of a context for your current comments.

I am more than happy to be an active member of this forum and I will respond to whoever I choose. My choice, Ian is to let you do your thing. If and when I wish to I'll respond.

No-one can force you to respond to me if you choose not to. But I do find your failure to engage suggestive

My respect and understanding for many has grown enormously as i watch and see the responses to threads. A real lesson in communication skills.

No doubt. Let's see how your understanding of the place that your 'experience' fits with respect to Scripture has grown as well.

God bless,

Ian
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Re:To Frank's Ghost (biblical salvation =?)

Date Posted:13/03/2007 3:06 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : SOTT1

Reply to : franks ghostFrank, again.For the moment I will decline your kind offer to debate.Sure.As I said I have read some of your info and over the last evening printed off your most recent study on Tongues, there is a lot to digest.Digest away, and should you need some clarification, feel free to askI have been interested in the comments of the more articulate of which there are few. Still waiting on Moth for that matter. "Tongues for preaching"...If and when I choose to go down this path with you IAN, you will be the first to know.I guess time will tell, then.Until then, my walk and relationship continues to grow. I will further will add that non of your postings have yet to convince me that I

Sure. But do you equally 'love'/'enjoy' the possibility that you've placed yourself under Paul's "Galatian curse"? I wonder,have you even considered the ramifications if such is the case?

Maybe you could elaborate on this curse for me.


Sure. But you've also shared elsewhere on this forum, that you've only had a 'real' and 'vibrant' experience of relationship with God over the past three years. In fact, you went so far as to lament your first 25 years worth of Revivalist history. I guess one would be justified in questioning just how much 'understanding' you received as a consequence of your initial experience.

I'm sorry to quote moth again, but as I develop the ability to think, "when I go back over some of my past posts, I'm not sure I agree with all that I say". I don't recall such lament perhaps, I'll have a look. I have however found that the last 2-3 years have been very special. But it would be remiss of me to reject previous years, just because of the current blessing. As far as questioning past understanding is concerned thats fine, there's been plenty of peaks and troughs. But as far as connectiong that to the experience and praying in Tongues.  I'm sorry that's a comment that seems to leap across a life experience so to make a point about Tongues.

An experience with Jesus you say? Okay. Now would I be correct in inferring from this, that 'tongues' has functioned as something of a 'crutch' for you? Can I ask how was your 'normal' prayer life over the same period? Did you spend as much time communing with God in English, or did 'intentional' prayer take a back-seat ride to all the 'tongues' stuff? And what of the development of spiritual 'fruit' over the same length of time? How great has been the harvest on that score? I ask these questions, as I'm attempting to build something of a context for your current comments.

This is a really good point Ian, because one of the things that I strongly believe is, as much as I prayed in the Spirit (Tongues) over 25 years, I have come to a place in recent times of expressing myself much more susinctly in English when seeking my God. In fact I verbalise my praise and worship much more than i used to. As well building a prayer life that recognises the authority of God as well as the Abba father relationship. So yes as my understanding develops so does my depth of prayer and type of prayer. Not being limited to Tongues exclusively.

Yes I think the foundation of the Newer and most recent blessings are founded in Praying much more in my understanding as well as Tongues.

Yes again, if you were to ask those who have known me for years the Fruit in my life has been limited. Lots of material stuff, family, business & things. Being honest with myself, but limited fruit (of the SPIRIT).  Hence my enthusiasm to embark on this journey. My hearts desire and prayer is to manifest all the gifts & fruit.

So there you go theres a bit more.

 

it is the glory of God to conceal a matter but the honour of kings to search it out.
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Re:To Frank's Ghost (biblical salvation =?)

Date Posted:13/03/2007 4:05 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : franks ghost

Frank,

Sure. But do you equally 'love'/'enjoy' the possibility that you've placed yourself under Paul's "Galatian curse"? I wonder,have you even considered the ramifications if such is the case?

Maybe you could elaborate on this curse for me.

Happy to. Galatians 1:8-9. The NIV uses the expression "...let him be eternally condemned...", however, the word that Paul used was 'anathema', the most appropriate English rendering being, "...damn him forever!" (it's an imperative). And you'll notice, of course, that the context of the curse revolves around 'Christians' preaching what Paul considered to be a false gospel. The Revivalist 'gospel' is just such a message.

Sure. But you've also shared elsewhere on this forum, that you've only had a 'real' and 'vibrant' experience of relationship with God over the past three years. In fact, you went so far as to lament your first 25 years worth of Revivalist history. I guess one would be justified in questioning just how much 'understanding' you received as a consequence of your initial experience.

I'm sorry to quote moth again, but as I develop the ability to think, "when I go back over some of my past posts, I'm not sure I agree with all that I say". I don't recall such lament perhaps, I'll have a look. I have however found that the last 2-3 years have been very special. But it would be remiss of me to reject previous years, just because of the current blessing. As far as questioning past understanding is concerned thats fine, there's been plenty of peaks and troughs. But as far as connectiong that to the experience and praying in Tongues. I'm sorry that's a comment that seems to leap across a life experience so to make a point about Tongues.

Perhaps. But from what you've shared previously, much of your 'walk' prior to the last three years doesn't give open demonstration of positive spiritual growth.

An experience with Jesus you say? Okay. Now would I be correct in inferring from this, that 'tongues' has functioned as something of a 'crutch' for you? Can I ask how was your 'normal' prayer life over the same period? Did you spend as much time communing with God in English, or did 'intentional' prayer take a back-seat ride to all the 'tongues' stuff? And what of the development of spiritual 'fruit' over the same length of time? How great has been the harvest on that score? I ask these questions, as I'm attempting to build something of a context for your current comments.

This is a really good point Ian, because one of the things that I strongly believe is, as much as I prayed in the Spirit (Tongues) over 25 years, I have come to a place in recent times of expressing myself much more susinctly in English when seeking my God. In fact I verbalise my praise and worship much more than i used to. As well building a prayer life that recognises the authority of God as well as the Abba father relationship. So yes as my understanding develops so does my depth of prayer and type of prayer. Not being limited to Tongues exclusively.

That's certainly good to hear. However, I'd suggest that you don't automatically equate 'tongues' with prayer in the Spirit, 'coz biblically, such ain't always the case!

Yes I think the foundation of the Newer and most recent blessings are founded in Praying much more in my understanding as well as Tongues.

Yes. It actually takes some effort to pray intentionally, rather than simply 'babbling' on in 'tongues'.

Yes again, if you were to ask those who have known me for years the Fruit in my life has been limited. Lots of material stuff, family, business & things. Being honest with myself, but limited fruit (of the SPIRIT). Hence my enthusiasm to embark on this journey. My hearts desire and prayer is to manifest all the gifts & fruit.

I'm not interested in material 'fruit', only in the development of spiritual 'fruit'. That's the stuff which demonstrates spiritual maturity, and gives display of Christian regeneration. As for your desire to manifest all the 'gifts' of the Spirit; sorry, but God doesn't apportion them that way.

So there you go theres a bit more.

Yep. I'd be so bold as to suggest that because you've been doctrinally unbalanced on the biblical place (and worth) of 'tongues', that you've reaped imbalance in your spiritual, 'physical' and emotional life as a consequence.

Blessings,

Ian
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Re:To Frank's Ghost (biblical salvation =?)

Date Posted:21/03/2007 8:20 AMCopy HTML


Frank,

Are you still alive?

Blessings,

Ian
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Re:To Frank's Ghost (biblical salvation =?)

Date Posted:22/03/2007 6:11 PMCopy HTML

hi SOTT,

yes franks Ghost is still very much alive (bit down with the flu today it seems) but over all very alive and doing very well, still keeps up to date on whats on the board and will comment if and when he feels he wants/needs to

 

God Bless

Earth5

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Re:To Frank's Ghost (biblical salvation =?)

Date Posted:13/04/2007 4:38 PMCopy HTML

I'm sure you love tongues. So did I... it felt great to have magical linguistic powers with a direct channel to god (well, until it crossed my mind that there was nothing magical about the whole thing and that it was completely out of context and irrational), and as I've said, it doesn't worry me one Iota if anyone does or doesn't do it. If the Revival churches suddenly came to their senses and dropped the tongues doctrine to a normal and rational 'grace' salvation stand, then they'd probably get more numbers... and that sort of frightens me more! So, um... keep the tongues lol. It's keeping people going to more rational and balanced churches.

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Re:To Frank's Ghost (biblical salvation =?)

Date Posted:18/04/2007 5:01 PMCopy HTML

 

If this guy(the one speaking audibly)-(apparently on the side of the screen-) doesnt and never has believed in Jesus, where is this "tongues" ability from? and then... what if he does become a Christian and want the pentecostal "tongues"? This looks exacly the same as that!How do u know the difference? Is it REALLY THE PROOF of Jesus' Holy SPIRIT living in you?So what do u think of that UPC and Revival and other tongues-for-salvation people?

If this is really an example of mindless "tongues" -(eg- not knowing what u said while u spoke it-)then it looks just like- or even MORE legitimate then a lot of "tongues" Ive seen! If that is really" tongues" and u dont believe in Jesus as your Saviour and never did- then here's proof ( along with Emily's "speakin in tongues" (also on u tube)-it proves that "tongues" is not proof that one has the Holy Spirit from God.

If u like this video clip, watch ehenocha- " I speak in tongues." She raises a totally valid point about "tongues" not necessarily being from God.

LOL I felt something! It sounded like an orgasm in hebrew! FUNNY! And so true. I've always taken "tongues" to mean languages ACTUALLY spoken on EARTH between people. In 'ACTS' the apostles speak in tongues - and the towns folk say something like "Hey, look at these guys, they're speaking my native language, but aren't they simple locals?"

Haha, good job. I was just listening to George Carlin's audiobook ("When Will Jesus Bring The Porkchops?") before I started this video. They covered this glossolalia study on Skeptics' Guide To The Universe episode #67. You can download it from the iTunes Music Store.

Ok, well I think I've said this already, but:
Just as you don't need to be a Buddhist to meditate, you don't need to be Christian to speak in tongues. In fact, you don't need to believe in God or any type of mysticism to speak in tongues, although it probably helps. Basically, I think these types of spiritual experiences come from within.

[LINK SiteName=Mothrust: Movies and Modern Myth Target=_blank]http://aintchristian.blogspot.com.au/[/LINK] Be nice, for everyone that you meet is fighting a harder battle - Anita Roddick
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