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Title: To Eric, on Greek

Revival_Centres_Discussion_Forums > Bible, Beliefs, Scriptures and 'The Word' > Didaktikon debunks Revivalist 'Theology' Go to subcategory：

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Didaktikon

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Register：29/08/2007 7:54 AM

Date Posted：16/10/2008 10:32 AMCopy HTML

Eric, chaire.

As you continue to study your Greek New Testament, take heart and draw strength from the following comments of Desiderius Erasmus, the Roman Catholic priest and scholar who, as you know, produced the Greek text which underpins the KJV:

Latin scholarship, however elaborate, is maimed and reduced by half without Greek. For whereas we Latins have but a few small streams, a few muddy pools, the Greeks possess crystal-clear springs and rivers that run with gold. I can see what utter madness it is even to put a finger on that part of theology which is specially concerned with the mysteries of the faith unless one is furnished with the equipment of Greek as well, since the translators of Scripture, in their scrupulous manner of construing the text, offer such literal versions of Greek idioms that no one ignorant of that language could grasp even the primary, or, as our own theologians call it, literal, meaning.

The above, rather pithy quote, derives from Epistle 149, and is taken from The Correspondence of Erasmus, vol. 2 in the Collected Works of Erasmus, trans. R. A. B. Mynors and D. F. S. Thomson (Toronto: University of Toronto Press, 1975), p. 25.

Gratia et pax,

Ian

email: didaktikon@gmail.com

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Re：To Eric, on Greek

Date Posted：16/10/2008 10:18 PMCopy HTML

Reply to Didaktikon

Eric, chaire.

Gratia et pax,

Ian

Major Ian,

Sir,

looksie here, IT ARRIVED YESTERDAY !!!

... And there is my 'little Kittel' sitting beside the BDAG.... My goodness I was expecting delivery on 1st November from Amazon.Com... Yep I use stained pine shelves..

I have property rates to pay to my local government council, so I'll get the New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology and Exegesis in a few weeks time........

Eric

Didaktikon Share to: #2

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Re：To Eric, on Greek

Date Posted：16/10/2008 11:18 PMCopy HTML

Eric,
A few points of clarification and commentary, if I may? First, the "Kittel" in "Little Kittel" is actually pronounced, Kidd'l, and this one volume summary of TDOT also goes by the rather cute title, "Kittelbits". When it comes to Greek lexicography, it seems a couple of "wits" were rather busy! In addition to "Little Kittel" they have given us the "Little Liddel" and "Middle Liddel" (the "common" abbreviations for the two smaller versions of Liddel-Scott-Jones, A Greek-English Lexicon). You probably won't need the LSJ for a few years yet.

Anyway, you will need to get yourself a decent Greek concordance, when finances allow. The edition by Kohlenberger is as serviceable as any (in fact, I use it much more frequently than I do my Moulton-Geden). It's much cheaper too, at about $80.00 (compared to the $300 I paid for M-G). I'd strongly encourage you "binning" the rather battered looking "Englishman's" on your shelf. For starters, it's based on the TR/KJV; more dangerously, constantly referring to it rather than to a proper Greek concordance will rob you of developing increased competence in the Greek language itself!

But you'll thoroughly appreciate the NIDOTTE when it arrives. I find that I use my various Hebrew lexica far less than I do this gem. In addition to its primary role as a theological dictionary, the NIDOTTE serves admirably well as a standard lexicon (and often as a concordance) too!

Anyway, enough of my ramblings on books for now.

Ian

email: didaktikon@gmail.com

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Re：To Eric, on Greek

Date Posted：18/10/2008 5:57 AMCopy HTML

Well there you go, look at Koorongs Comments, you certainly know your Goods, Ian

TNX and blessings:

http://orders.koorong.com/search/details.jhtml?code=0310402204

Publisher's Description

The Greek-English Concordance to the New Testament is an exhaustive index to three Greek texts: UBS4, Nestle-Aland 26, and the Greek text underlying the New International Version of the Bible. It replaces the venerable Englishman's Greek Concordance by George Wigram, published over 150 years ago.FEATURES: * Lists all occurrences of a given Greek word (even where there is not a direct English equivalent) in Greek alphabetical order* Shows the interrelationship between the English and Greek texts, including redundant cognates and repeated Greek words, as well as multiple-word translations* Uses the Goodrick-Kohlenberger numbering system (with cross-reference to Strong's numbers), allowing for accurate identification of Greek words and use with The Zondervan NIV Exhaustive Concordance* Keyed to the Bauer-Arndt-Gingrich-Danker Greek Lexicon (BDAG) and The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology (NIDNTT)* Exhaustive NIV-to-Greek index* Includes a phrase concordance for phrases such as Son of Man, kingdom of God, etc
[Publisher]
D

PS Ralphy, this might be a help to you !!

Didaktikon Share to: #4

Rank：Not quite new

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Re：To Eric, on Greek

Date Posted：18/10/2008 6:46 AMCopy HTML

Eric,

Wrong one, bro'. The one that I had in mind was the exhaustive Greek concordance by Kohlenberger. This one: http://orders.koorong.com/search/details.jhtml?code=0310410304. I just checked the price ($45) and discovered it's currently about half the cost of what I paid for mine years ago! Extraordinary value!

The Greek-English version is very valuable too, but it's designed for people who haven't studied Greek. You have, therefore, you should be using the exhaustive edition. Doing so will reinforce what you've learned, and will help you to take your ability with the GNT to a new level.

Blessings,

Ian

email: didaktikon@gmail.com

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Re：To Eric, on Greek

Date Posted：19/10/2008 6:47 AMCopy HTML

Hi Ian

The NIDNTT takes some getting a handle of to use properly.. I was looking for Rom 3:25 for 'hilasterion' and eventually found it under "Reconciliation" Vol3 page 148... seems I should have used the "Index of Greek Words" in the first place...

I was going to ask you to find it for me but I got there eventually.. Hmmm I am thankful to the Lord that I have my own LXX where I found it is used to mean the cover or lid on the Ark of the Covenant - Lev16:2... the word is also used in Hebrews 9:5.

I quite enjoy what Little Kittel says "God himself is the subject of the action, so that divine expiation rather than human propitiation is the point. "By faith" is to be taken with hilasterion. The object of faith is Jesus crucified and risen, who is thus our hilasterion as we believe in him, and the theme of the word of reconciliation ..... The point, then, seems to be that Jesus is a higher kapporet which works through faith, not external observance, which is sprinkled with Jesus' own blood, not that of animals, and which is open to view, not hidden in the holy of holies. In this way Paul personalizes and spiritualizes the concept of the kapporet as elsewhere he does that of cultic service or of circumcision (Rom12:1)... I best check out the Greek grammer on this - I might learn or reinforce something I have forgotten.

blessings

..

Didaktikon Share to: #6

Rank：Not quite new

Score：771

Posts：26

From：Australia

Register：29/08/2007 7:54 AM

Re：To Eric, on Greek

Date Posted：19/10/2008 8:37 AMCopy HTML

Hi, Eric.

'Yep', that's what Volume 4 is for.

You should probably track down a copy of Dr Leon Morris' book, The Apostolic Preaching of the Cross. He discusses the issue of hilasterion, and whether it invokes the concept of 'propitiation' or 'expiation' in some detail (among other things).

Blessings,

Ian

email: didaktikon@gmail.com

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Title: To Eric, on Greek
Revival_Centres_Discussion_Forums > Bible, Beliefs, Scriptures and 'The Word' > Didaktikon debunks Revivalist 'Theology'	Go to subcategory：

Didaktikon
Rank：Not quite new Score：771 Posts：26 From：Australia Register：29/08/2007 7:54 AM	Date Posted：16/10/2008 10:32 AMCopy HTML Eric, chaire. As you continue to study your Greek New Testament, take heart and draw strength from the following comments of Desiderius Erasmus, the Roman Catholic priest and scholar who, as you know, produced the Greek text which underpins the KJV: Latin scholarship, however elaborate, is maimed and reduced by half without Greek. For whereas we Latins have but a few small streams, a few muddy pools, the Greeks possess crystal-clear springs and rivers that run with gold. I can see what utter madness it is even to put a finger on that part of theology which is specially concerned with the mysteries of the faith unless one is furnished with the equipment of Greek as well, since the translators of Scripture, in their scrupulous manner of construing the text, offer such literal versions of Greek idioms that no one ignorant of that language could grasp even the primary, or, as our own theologians call it, literal, meaning. The above, rather pithy quote, derives from Epistle 149, and is taken from The Correspondence of Erasmus, vol. 2 in the Collected Works of Erasmus, trans. R. A. B. Mynors and D. F. S. Thomson (Toronto: University of Toronto Press, 1975), p. 25. Gratia et pax, Ian email: didaktikon@gmail.com
Ex_Member	Share to: #1
Rank： Score：0 Posts：0 From：Unknown Register：21/09/2018 12:36 AM	Re：To Eric, on Greek Date Posted：16/10/2008 10:18 PMCopy HTML Reply to Didaktikon Eric, chaire. Gratia et pax, Ian Major Ian, Sir, looksie here, IT ARRIVED YESTERDAY !!! ... And there is my 'little Kittel' sitting beside the BDAG.... My goodness I was expecting delivery on 1st November from Amazon.Com... Yep I use stained pine shelves.. I have property rates to pay to my local government council, so I'll get the New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology and Exegesis in a few weeks time........ Eric
Didaktikon	Share to: #2
Rank：Not quite new Score：771 Posts：26 From：Australia Register：29/08/2007 7:54 AM	Re：To Eric, on Greek Date Posted：16/10/2008 11:18 PMCopy HTML Eric, A few points of clarification and commentary, if I may? First, the "Kittel" in "Little Kittel" is actually pronounced, Kidd'l, and this one volume summary of TDOT also goes by the rather cute title, "Kittelbits". When it comes to Greek lexicography, it seems a couple of "wits" were rather busy! In addition to "Little Kittel" they have given us the "Little Liddel" and "Middle Liddel" (the "common" abbreviations for the two smaller versions of Liddel-Scott-Jones, A Greek-English Lexicon). You probably won't need the LSJ for a few years yet. Anyway, you will need to get yourself a decent Greek concordance, when finances allow. The edition by Kohlenberger is as serviceable as any (in fact, I use it much more frequently than I do my Moulton-Geden). It's much cheaper too, at about $80.00 (compared to the $300 I paid for M-G). I'd strongly encourage you "binning" the rather battered looking "Englishman's" on your shelf. For starters, it's based on the TR/KJV; more dangerously, constantly referring to it rather than to a proper Greek concordance will rob you of developing increased competence in the Greek language itself! But you'll thoroughly appreciate the NIDOTTE when it arrives. I find that I use my various Hebrew lexica far less than I do this gem. In addition to its primary role as a theological dictionary, the NIDOTTE serves admirably well as a standard lexicon (and often as a concordance) too! Anyway, enough of my ramblings on books for now. Ian email: didaktikon@gmail.com
Ex_Member	Share to: #3
Rank： Score：0 Posts：0 From：Unknown Register：21/09/2018 12:36 AM	Re：To Eric, on Greek Date Posted：18/10/2008 5:57 AMCopy HTML Well there you go, look at Koorongs Comments, you certainly know your Goods, Ian TNX and blessings: http://orders.koorong.com/search/details.jhtml?code=0310402204 Publisher's Description The Greek-English Concordance to the New Testament is an exhaustive index to three Greek texts: UBS4, Nestle-Aland 26, and the Greek text underlying the New International Version of the Bible. It replaces the venerable Englishman's Greek Concordance by George Wigram, published over 150 years ago.FEATURES: * Lists all occurrences of a given Greek word (even where there is not a direct English equivalent) in Greek alphabetical order* Shows the interrelationship between the English and Greek texts, including redundant cognates and repeated Greek words, as well as multiple-word translations* Uses the Goodrick-Kohlenberger numbering system (with cross-reference to Strong's numbers), allowing for accurate identification of Greek words and use with The Zondervan NIV Exhaustive Concordance* Keyed to the Bauer-Arndt-Gingrich-Danker Greek Lexicon (BDAG) and The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology (NIDNTT)* Exhaustive NIV-to-Greek index* Includes a phrase concordance for phrases such as Son of Man, kingdom of God, etc [Publisher] D PS Ralphy, this might be a help to you !!
Didaktikon	Share to: #4
Rank：Not quite new Score：771 Posts：26 From：Australia Register：29/08/2007 7:54 AM	Re：To Eric, on Greek Date Posted：18/10/2008 6:46 AMCopy HTML Eric, Wrong one, bro'. The one that I had in mind was the exhaustive Greek concordance by Kohlenberger. This one: http://orders.koorong.com/search/details.jhtml?code=0310410304. I just checked the price ($45) and discovered it's currently about half the cost of what I paid for mine years ago! Extraordinary value! The Greek-English version is very valuable too, but it's designed for people who haven't studied Greek. You have, therefore, you should be using the exhaustive edition. Doing so will reinforce what you've learned, and will help you to take your ability with the GNT to a new level. Blessings, Ian email: didaktikon@gmail.com
Ex_Member	Share to: #5
Rank： Score：0 Posts：0 From：Unknown Register：21/09/2018 12:36 AM	Re：To Eric, on Greek Date Posted：19/10/2008 6:47 AMCopy HTML Hi Ian The NIDNTT takes some getting a handle of to use properly.. I was looking for Rom 3:25 for 'hilasterion' and eventually found it under "Reconciliation" Vol3 page 148... seems I should have used the "Index of Greek Words" in the first place... I was going to ask you to find it for me but I got there eventually.. Hmmm I am thankful to the Lord that I have my own LXX where I found it is used to mean the cover or lid on the Ark of the Covenant - Lev16:2... the word is also used in Hebrews 9:5. I quite enjoy what Little Kittel says "God himself is the subject of the action, so that divine expiation rather than human propitiation is the point. "By faith" is to be taken with hilasterion. The object of faith is Jesus crucified and risen, who is thus our hilasterion as we believe in him, and the theme of the word of reconciliation ..... The point, then, seems to be that Jesus is a higher kapporet which works through faith, not external observance, which is sprinkled with Jesus' own blood, not that of animals, and which is open to view, not hidden in the holy of holies. In this way Paul personalizes and spiritualizes the concept of the kapporet as elsewhere he does that of cultic service or of circumcision (Rom12:1)... I best check out the Greek grammer on this - I might learn or reinforce something I have forgotten. blessings ..
Didaktikon	Share to: #6
Rank：Not quite new Score：771 Posts：26 From：Australia Register：29/08/2007 7:54 AM	Re：To Eric, on Greek Date Posted：19/10/2008 8:37 AMCopy HTML Hi, Eric. 'Yep', that's what Volume 4 is for. You should probably track down a copy of Dr Leon Morris' book, The Apostolic Preaching of the Cross. He discusses the issue of hilasterion, and whether it invokes the concept of 'propitiation' or 'expiation' in some detail (among other things). Blessings, Ian email: didaktikon@gmail.com