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Date Posted:20/08/2009 9:48 AMCopy HTML

Galien. ian models himself on paul, i dont like paul as a person ... so? doesntmean i have to like the arrogant way he treated people ... again,paul is no more important than any one of us". Bollocks. Paul was an APOSTLE, this calling and labour is what sets him apart from you and me. There IS a hierarchy in the plan and purpose of God, including in the Church, and including in the Kingdom. I hate to break the news to you (again), but we are NOT all equal in the sight of God :nuts: Ian

That's right Ian, I forgot again. You are so much more important than the rest of us by virtue of your amazing knowledge.

It is for exactly reasons outlined above that you can take your version of church and, well, jam it really.

What on earth makes you think I would re-immerse myself amongst another group of people for whom worldly power, status and hierarchy are all important?

Your worldview and mine are at opposite ends of the spectrum. You still think the pathetic wisdom and set up of this world have some kind of credibility. You love the heirarchy structure and why wouldn't you since you have managed to worm your way up it. You are no different from the Brian Houstons of this world in your own way.

The bible clearly states that in christ there is no jew or greek, no man nor woman, no slave nor master, for we are all one in Christ Jesus. Our sin MAKES us equal Ian.

But you know better than all of that dont you, just like you know better than my therapist.

The basis of spiritual abuse is believing you have the truth and control the truth and it is your job to police the truth.

Like revival, you believe you have the ability to say who is in and who is out of the kingdom of god. That should scare you ian, but it doesn't.

You have said to me that god will not love or accept me if i do not attend church. That in itself is a heresy.

Quoting scripture is pointless, because in your eyes only you seem to have a correct interpretation. When you qute it, its because you are right, when anyone else does its a "prooftext".

You are a hard man Ian, and a foolish one. I would rather stick needles in my eyes than ever set foot again in a church of abusers like you.




 
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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:28/08/2009 12:45 AMCopy HTML

Ian,

So now it's God's fault, huh?

Perhaps at some point you maybe able to come to a realisation that not every situation is about who is at fault. Not everyone is busy running around looking for someone to point the finger at. Sometimes, it just is what it is. Either one chooses to protect oneself from harm, or one doesn't. Sensitive people like myself need to be protected from emotional harm. If it is not the concern of others, then it needs to be my concern. The one size fits all attitude of church does not work for everyone, and is not safe for everyone.

Most churches choose to point the finger at those who "don't fit in" for whatever reason. The collateral emotional damage that churches cause is of no concern to them. In fact, they don't even believe it exists. So much for owning the truth. Any organisation that cannot honestly question itself, or allow itself to be questioned has issues.

Ever seen Pleasantville Ian? It's worth a viewing. Several in fact.

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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:28/08/2009 12:53 AMCopy HTML

Galien,

Actually I have seen the movie, "Pleasantville", and I found it Interesting. Anyway, you've just now claimed that the Christian Church is a "one size fits all", monolithic entity; furthermore, that it doesn't accept those who "don't fit in". These claims are based on what, exactly? Your experiences of Revivalism and Pentecostalism? As I've mentioned to you previously, I harbour serious doubts that you have any personal and involved experience of orthodox Christianity specifically, or of the Christian Church more generally. My own exposure to both, in a range of denominational contexts across the country, is markedly different to yours. And given my nature, background and skills, I imagine that I'd present as being far more "threatening" to the average church congregation than would you.

Consequently, your assessments, in my opinion, are based neither on the facts nor reality.

Ian

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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:28/08/2009 12:58 AMCopy HTML

Galien,

I have encountered bullying and negative leadership from relatives, at school, in the army, in the church (if one can really describe Revivalism as church), in both being employed and being an employer (bullying and group negativity doesn't always go down it can quite easily go up), and yet to reject authority, chastening, rebuke, judgement, discipline and punishment, because of bad experiences, is not just like throwing out the baby with the bathwater, but going further to rip the plumbing out of the wall and poisoning the water supply.

It' a matter of weighing up the good versus the bad, or to quote (before my time I must stress!) an old Bing Crosby and Andrews Sisters song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cgVRwITAfY

You've got to accentuate the positive
Eliminate the negative
Latch on to the affirmative
Don't mess with Mr In-between!

You've got to spread joy to the maximum
Bring gloom down to the minimum
Have faith or pandemonium's
Liable to walk up on the scene

I reckon you'd do well to play this song many times, learn the words and sing it often.

It took me a long, long, long time to get it into my thick head that by letting hurts regurgitate I was reliving injustices over and over again. Whereas if I rebuked them when they arose like King David did in the Psalms and stomped on them like in Psalm 23 (the quintessential turning negativity into positivity), the Holy Spirit helped me overcome.

Is it a magic wand approach? No. When Jesus resisted Satan in the temptation in the wilderness, the scripture says that Satan departed.......for a season.

Just when I thought I had negativity beaten, I came upon the forum and had my resolve shaken, mostly by Ian. I was as negative as you. I thought I had learned self control and confidence, but was very mistaken. Why was this so? Because I had everything nicely packaged as to why I could isolate myself and still be a Christian. Which of course is very contrary to God's way and teaching.

I will tell you a few thing in the main I did and still do, differently to you. Prayed to God for His way to be revealed to others and me, without the assumption that my way was right. Of course one wouldn't have thought such, reading my posts! Also, as I am doing now, I was prepared to back down, repent and apologise when I was wrong. Our Father loves repentance and a contrite heart.

One of my favourite poems is Rudyard Kipling's "Recessional" http://www.web-books.com/Classics/Poetry/Anthology/Kipling/Recessional.htm  and the lines "still stands thine ancient sacrifice, an humble and a contrite heart"

The poem is not about "Lest we forget the dead" as it has been construed, but the futility of empire and arrogance.

I really thought you were listening in the chat box and rejoiced....then you post here that you are as obstinate as ever. I hope it's bluff and bluster and you will in time change. Christianity is risk taking. Satan is not playing. He wants to isolate us and despise one another, and he does it by hurt and playing with our feelings and setting us at variance with one another. We can fall into the trap by rejecting everything we don't like and excuse our behavior because of past hurts. In Christ we can overcome the "feelings" for the bigger picture of care for one another putting those things behind, just as Jesus did.

I exhort you yet again to pray and in particular about bring your mind and heart in subjection to what God wants, not what you want.

In the love of Christ,

John
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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:28/08/2009 1:21 AMCopy HTML

Galien,

 

I do what is right because I want to, not because I need to, or have to, or should? How about you?

 

I’m sorry, but I have to say your negativity is so depressing I don’t believe you’re contribution to the objective of this forum is of any value at all. All I am asking is to quit seeing yourself as somebody any different to any one else. Well, you are NOT. We all have our weaknesses but all of us are not self centered and full of self pity. You claim that you do right and put others before yourself because you want to and this maybe so, but have you thought the motive maybe pride and self righteousness within yourself?

 

I think I do right because I don’t try to be right, but by God’s grace and mercy I do that which is right and the compassion and empathy just happens as I see in the Word of God his will for us all.

 

“Be still and know that I am God”

 

Ralph.

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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:28/08/2009 1:42 AMCopy HTML

John,

I have encountered bullying and negative leadership from relatives, at school, in the army, in the church (if one can really describe Revivalism as church), in both being employed and being an employer (bullying and group negativity doesn't always go down it can quite easily go up),

Agreed. Human beings are so lovely. I used to work in a print shop. The man who owned it was the person who first introduced me to Revival actually. He really did mistake the employer/employee relationship as feudal lord and serf. Of course you can imagine how well I took that. He was silly enough to disallow me lunch due to a  deadline on a day when I had severe period pain. It kind of culminated in me threatening him with a scalpel and telling him to stick his job. He really had no idea that being a christian actually meant he had to treat others with respect. The person he was at work, and the one he was on a sunday were two completely different people. Later it emerged that the people who worked there hated him so much they were planning to get someone to come in and force him out of his business using deception. I found this out and arranged lunch with him to let him know what was going on. I find people so dishonest, and so manipulative. Bullying can and does work both ways.

 and yet to reject authority, chastening, rebuke, judgement, discipline and punishment, because of bad experiences, is not just like throwing out the baby with the bathwater, but going further to rip the plumbing out of the wall and poisoning the water supply.

Well I guess John if I don't think the authority is legitimate, I am probably not going to want much to do with it. Coupled with the fact I find some people's enjoyment of authority, even in a church setting, quite pathological, I am probably going to avoid it.

It' a matter of weighing up the good versus the bad, or to quote (before my time I must stress!) an old Bing Crosby and Andrews Sisters song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cgVRwITAfY

You've got to accentuate the positive
Eliminate the negative
Latch on to the affirmative
Don't mess with Mr In-between!

You've got to spread joy to the maximum
Bring gloom down to the minimum
Have faith or pandemonium's
Liable to walk up on the scene


I reckon you'd do well to play this song many times, learn the words and sing it often.

No thanks. Look at the world, really look at it. It's all very well for us to be "positive" in our insulated middle class western world. Think of that man in Kenya, scrabbling for food on a garbage heap, the one Ian told me that for purposes of comparison is not as "equal" as he is. You wanna teach him to sing that song? If you elminate negative (not possible) and only have positive, where is the balance in that?

It took me a long, long, long time to get it into my thick head that by letting hurts regurgitate I was reliving injustices over and over again. Whereas if I rebuked them when they arose like King David did in the Psalms and stomped on them like in Psalm 23 (the quintessential turning negativity into positivity), the Holy Spirit helped me overcome.

This is not about past hurts John, its about preventing future ones.

Just when I thought I had negativity beaten, I came upon the forum and had my resolve shaken, mostly by Ian. I was as negative as you. I thought I had learned self control and confidence, but was very mistaken. Why was this so? Because I had everything nicely packaged as to why I could isolate myself and still be a Christian. Which of course is very contrary to God's way and teaching.

I don't think I am negative John, just a realist. Oh the adventures I have had on another email list with the Yanks. These are people dedicated to pretending there is nothing wrong. They are so afraid of facing reality they have made a new religion out of it. Apparently there is a Law of Attraction. If you allow anyone else's negative energy around you, you will attract negativity into your life, and bad things will happen. Apparently it works in reverse for positivity. Personally I wish people would grow up and learn to accept both the good and bad in life, and stop pretending to themselves we have some kind of control over that.

And as for isolation John, the reality is we are all alone. We come into this world alone, and we leave alone. I have always been alone. I had violent punitive parents who were more interested in their substance abuse and mental illness than in my wellbeing. I learned how to be alone early. I have the courage to face the world alone, most people do not. The times I have risked joining groups have resulted in misery for me. I am not like most people John, I have extremely high levels of empathy and when I love others, I love them like family. That was how I loved the 100 or so people in my assembly. My devastation at discovering that for 90% of them, I meant nothing, was the most alone I have ever felt in my life.

The truth is most people care on a deep level for their family and closest friends. I feel that depth of love for everyone because that is who I am.


I will tell you a few thing in the main I did and still do, differently to you. Prayed to God for His way to be revealed to others and me, without the assumption that my way was right. Of course one wouldn't have thought such, reading my posts! Also, as I am doing now, I was prepared to back down, repent and apologise when I was wrong. Our Father loves repentance and a contrite heart.

I don't have a WAY I assume is right. I do apologise when I am wrong, but that is the problem with things spiritual isn't it. No one owns the "right way" although many, many think they do. I cannot even understand why having a "right way" is so important to people.

One of my favourite poems is Rudyard Kipling's "Recessional" http://www.web-books.com/Classics/Poetry/Anthology/Kipling/Recessional.htm  and the lines "still stands thine ancient sacrifice, an humble and a contrite heart"

The poem is not about "Lest we forget the dead" as it has been construed, but the futility of empire and arrogance.

Nothing wrong with a humble or a contrite heart. I just don't find them often in church, and I NEVER find them in relation to those who have treated me badly.

I really thought you were listening in the chat box and rejoiced....then you post here that you are as obstinate as ever. I hope it's bluff and bluster and you will in time change. Christianity is risk taking. Satan is not playing. He wants to isolate us and despise one another, and he does it by hurt and playing with our feelings and setting us at variance with one another. We can fall into the trap by rejecting everything we don't like and excuse our behavior because of past hurts. In Christ we can overcome the "feelings" for the bigger picture of care for one another putting those things behind, just as Jesus did.

I always listen John, always. It's not me being obstinate. I have spent over 20 years of my life in therapy finding out who I am and how I operate. I am an outlier in just about every area, eccentric, humble, truthful and brave, as well as damaged and defensive. Any time I present at a church I am going to be so pissed off at the pointless heirarchy structure I am going to want to argue the point about the very need for it. How does that benefit me or any church I go to? I have kind of grown out of the need for a lot of things that others find necessary in life.

I don't like the way people treat each other John, and the older I get the more I dislike it. I have no need to judge others, to place them in a pecking order in my own mind. Everyone is equal. I have rejected this nasty world's idea of a lot of things. I have no need to rejoice in the sin of another because it makes me feel like I am better than they are, and please don't tell me that is not what christians do. I have been watching it for most of my life.

We are ALL sinners, ALL judged unworthy.

I thank you John for your kind and genuine concern for my soul. Just writing this has brought a tear to my eye.

Tracey
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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:28/08/2009 2:08 AMCopy HTML

Seg,

 

I’m sorry, but I have to say your negativity is so depressing I don’t believe you’re contribution to the objective of this forum is of any value at all. 

Guess Ishould just go then seeing my presence here has no value. I hope for your sake that one day you learn to accept life warts and all.

I think I do right because I don’t try to be right, but by God’s grace and mercy I do that which is right and the compassion and empathy just happens as I see in the Word of God his will for us all.

 

Nothing to disagree with there. I am exactly the same, I just don't need to say it in a way which pleases the ears of others. God can read my heart, I have nothing to prove to anyone else.

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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:28/08/2009 2:19 AMCopy HTML

Galien

How's this approach to life working for you? If it's not negative, I don't know what is. Tracey, take a step back and re-read your posts. We get it - you're humble and brave and abused and you have extremely high levels of empathy for others and you are not like most people and ..........sorry, I dozed off there.

Will the real Tracey stand up? I'd like to know her - I'm sure she's worth knowing. Maybe she's less argumentative and able to be taught.

Chips


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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:28/08/2009 2:55 AMCopy HTML

Hi chips,

How's this approach to life working for you? 

Rather well actually.

If it's not negative, I don't know what is.

Then you don't know what it is, only what you THINK it is.

Tracey, take a step back and re-read your posts. We get it - you're humble and brave and abused and you have extremely high levels of empathy for others and you are not like most people and ..........sorry, I dozed off there.

Sorry to have bored you.

Will the real Tracey stand up? I'd like to know her - I'm sure she's worth knowing. Maybe she's less argumentative and able to be taught.

This is the real me, but apparently I am only worth knowing if I moo like all the other cows in the paddock. Mooing any other way usually gets one uninvited from the paddock. All I want chips is to be accepted for who I am, and be allowed to have my own opinions. But clearly that isn't going to happen.


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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:28/08/2009 3:10 AMCopy HTML

Galien,

When your opinions are wrong, don't be surprised that people will point this out to you. After all, you're not entitled to hold beliefs that are cr*p. Furthermore, and to use your analogy, if it's a "goat" suffering an identity crisis, and so thinks it's a "cow", then all the "bleating" in the world will not equal a "moo". Ever.

Ian

email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:28/08/2009 3:12 AMCopy HTML

Galien,

I'm not in anyway suggesting you leave here, I would you look more on the bright side of things. Be more positive in your approach to things that are dished out from the Word and others.

Ralph
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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:28/08/2009 3:48 AMCopy HTML

Ian

When your opinions are wrong, don't be surprised that people will point this out to you.

Opinions aren't right or wrong, they just are.

After all, you're not entitled to hold beliefs that are cr*p. Furthermore, and to use your analogy, if it's a "goat" suffering an identity crisis, and so thinks it's a "cow", then all the "bleating" in the world will not equal a "moo". Ever.

Why not, some of yours are. That's hilarious, people are not allowed to  hold beliefs that are crap? Well that wipes out most of the world then doesnt it? People are in fact entitled to opinions Ian. In church, they are entitled to your opinion, which you believe to be A. a fact and B. backed up by the word of god. Sorry but I am not interested in becoming a clone who only knows how to parrot your opinions.

I don't WANT to moo Ian, if it is someone else's moo, so the other cows will accept me.
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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:28/08/2009 4:02 AMCopy HTML

Galien,

I think you'll find that any statement that makes claims to being factual, whether an "opinion" or otherwise, is routinely tested in order to determine its merit. I expect such to be the case with my statements and opinions; you should certainly expect that the same "democratic" process be applied to yours. I suggest that I've established the error of your views; and that you've altogether
failed to do likewise with mine. But that's simply a widely held opinion, isn't it?

Now if you don't like the interactions that take place here; if you feel you're "misunderstood", then please feel free to leave. Just try not to "slam" the door on your way out, this time.

Ian

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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:28/08/2009 10:43 PMCopy HTML

Ian

I think you'll find that any statement that makes claims to being factual, whether an "opinion" or otherwise, is routinely tested in order to determine its merit. I expect such to be the case with my statements and opinions; you should certainly expect that the same "democratic" process be applied to yours. I suggest that I've established the error of your views; and that you've altogether failed to do likewise with mine. But that's simply a widely held opinion, isn't it?

Ian, all your opinions show me is that you have a lot of head knowledge, but very little knowledge of the human heart. In fact, you seem to spend a lot of time not only poo-pooing what people think and feel, but encouraging others to do the same. Seems like all you have learned since leaving revival is theology, but very little else.

Now if you don't like the interactions that take place here; if you feel you're "misunderstood", then please feel free to leave. Just try not to "slam" the door on your way out, this time.

Ah yes, and there it is. The old disposable neighbour routine. Not quite on the level of laying down one's life is it?

We are people Ian,not used takeaway containers,  and just because our human nature and our society, and yes, even our churches say it is okay to dispose of each other if we have different beliefs, differing opinions or are just plain ornery in the sight of others, that doesn't make it okay.

It is EXACTLY that attitude that keeps me out of church, the one where I know I am disposable. Breaks my heart to know that christians still think its okay to treat others this way.

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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:28/08/2009 11:45 PMCopy HTML

Galien,

May I ask, have you honestly attended or been involved in any "tradional" churches for a reasonable time after Revival?
I myself have been to several and I don't seem to find that the people or churches are what you claim to be. Just the opposite.
If it is not the case then do you think you should be making unfounded judgements based on your past experiences? (Excluding what you perceive Ian to be)


Ralph.



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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:29/08/2009 12:06 AMCopy HTML

Hi Ralph,


May I ask, have you honestly attended or been involved in any "tradional" churches for a reasonable time after Revival?
I myself have been to several and I don't seem to find that the people or churches are what you claim to be. Just the opposite.
If it is not the case then do you think you should be making unfounded judgements based on your past experiences? (Excluding what you perceive Ian to be)

No I haven't. But I really don't need to. Look I know people are different everywhere, and it is probably just the pettiness of pathetic human nature I hate. It just kills me to see it in christians ralph. Maybe I just expect too much, but I expect no more of others than I expect from myself first.

I know a lot of disenfranchised christians, from all denominations. The horror stories never end, and you cannot tell me it is always the fault of the people and never the fault of the churches. The anglican church in particular is an interesting one. The problem for me lies in the hierarchy structure that has no time for the actual people or the actual circumstances. Once the "organisation" becomes more important than the people in it, something is wrong.


My opinion, useless and pointless as it seem to be on this forum, is that christians should be able to do a bit better than the average soccer club, but they can't seem to see past the usual human way of doing things. I believe that Jesus showed us a better way. Unfortunately Ralph it isn't a way that panders to our ego, or increases our status. But, being human we will try and turn it into that. We will try and turn it into just another club where the know alls rise to the top and feed crumbs to the lesser mortals at the bottom, then get rid of the lesser mortals if they don't pass muster. I'm just kind of tired of it, and I am not the only one believe me. I know more than one enlightened ex clergy from different denominations who have left the church for exactly the same reasons.
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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:29/08/2009 12:39 AMCopy HTML

Actually Ralph, I will try and explain it another way.

I have a 27 year old daughter who is a teacher in South Korea. She has met a muslim gentleman with whom she seems quite taken, and is talking marriage. That of course would require her to convert to islam.

Now, I can take two paths with this. I can tell her why islam is wrong, react in fear and tell her she is making a stupid decision, undermine her character, thump the bible and have a lovely time in my own self righteousness, pride and arrogance, because I have the word of god on my side, therefore I am right and it gives me permission to harm our relationship by rebuking her, which apparently I am "obligated" to do.

On the other hand I could express my concerns, allow her to be grown up that she is, respect her decisions and not harm our relationship.

Belonging to a church encourages me to behave in the first manner I described, and I am ashamed of myself when I am that person. Jesus is my role model, and as far as I can see he never behaved like an irrational nut job when it came to passing on the word of god to others. He said what he needed to say, then left it with them. He was always the gentleman, even as he died for me. The only people he wasnt gentlemanly to were the ones who cared about ramming the truth down the throats of others. Now what am I to make of that Ralph?
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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:29/08/2009 1:58 AMCopy HTML

Galien,

I know you don't like Paul (whew! that writes off a big chunk of the New Testament), and you think God is not doing the right thing (well that just about wraps it up for God) and you don't like Ian because he represents authority and judgement (I know you consider those words offensive), but how about John the Baptist or Jesus?

When the multitude came to be baptised by John he said "You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?" (Luke 3:7). Male authority? Too much testosterone?

When the woman who's daughter was possessed by a demon beseeched Jesus, first he ignored her and then he told her "It is not right to take the children's bread and throw it to dogs" (Matthew 15:26 ESV) Racial, sexist and religious bias?

Jesus didn't pussyfoot with his disciples, rebuking them for their stupidity or lack of discernment on many occasions, he didn't get all kissy and softly ask the sellers of doves or the money changers at the temple, would they please desist, but He made a scourge, threw over their tables and drove them from the temple rebuking them. (Matthew 21:12 & 13) Too authoritarian? Not empathetic enough?

Or more pointedly, Jesus said, something that you (and me) ought take on board and do"Why do you call me 'Lord, Lord' and not do what I tell you?" (Luke 6:46 ESV) Unless you are prepared to do what Jesus said don't state that He is your role model, otherwise it is just egotistic lip service.

Jesus also said something we both have to heed, or ignore at our own peril "But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates 'We played the flute for you and you did not dance, we sang a dirge and you did not mourn'". (Matthew 11:17)

Why play at worshipping or believing? If one does not like what God or Jesus have done or are doing, and deem that They are not doing the right things and/or should be doing it much better or different, or more pointedly "our way" because of course we are so cosmic and given the chance would do a much better job, why continue with Christianity or belief at all?

You have testified many times that the worldly folk are better than churches....like football clubs (sorry I checked you said "soccer" which would be better described as paraplegic kicking and head bouncing) are much better than churches. So go and join and watch them. Very peaceful. As someone one humorously said "I once went to a brawl and a soccer match broke out". The soccer clubs in Melbourne HATE each other with a vengeance based on racial and religious differences and have even resorted to severe assaults and arson. Soccer here nearly became bankrupt and defunct because of the corruption and violence. Got any other "good" examples?

You asked Ralph "what am I to make of that". Well you metaphorically speaking, tried to make origami of steel sheets and failed. You start with a mole hill with Everest as your final goal and complained that everyone including God, wasn't helping your quest. You refuse to accept ANY other way but that which you deem right.

With regard to your daughter's "perhaps" marriage, the two paths you mention, are NOT the only paths. You are as always tilting at windmills. It hasn't happened yet. But what would I know? My son who also is a teacher, in Taiwan, has just married, a few week back, a Chinese (Taiwanese) Buddhist.

If we walk in the way of Jesus, people will by our love to one another (dare I say fellowshipping together! or doing church) know we are His disciples and He will call them by our example. There is nothing in this world that God doesn't know about......trusting and obeying......will align us to His ways.

John
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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:29/08/2009 2:22 AMCopy HTML

Galien,

I have a question. You had a dig at Ian's and my ages alluding to you being younger and more attuned to the modern world and so .... "je ne sais quoi" .... "tres chic". So if you are "young" and have a daughter who is 27, would I be correct in assuming you had her at the age of 12? Ask any person under 29 and they will tell you anything after 40 is old. My guess is that you are closer to 50 (it would be naughty of me to even suppose you cold be past 50). If you hear foorsteps, don't be alarmed, it's just old age that has crept up on you. Heh heh heh heh.

John
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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:29/08/2009 2:48 AMCopy HTML

I noticed on Ian's profile he states he was a teenager in the 80's. My guess is Galien is older than Ian. She may have to switch to criticizing him for being young and silly rather than old and out of touch.

¡uıɐƃɐ ʎɐqǝ ɯoɹɟ pɹɐoqʎǝʞ ɐ ƃuıʎnq ɹǝʌǝu
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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:29/08/2009 3:29 AMCopy HTML

Galien, (#65)

 

Thank you for your honest response. I can see and understand where you are coming from in that.

Speaking of the traditional churches and the hierarchy, that is the way it has developed and I would have it that way rather than be under the power/control of the one man organization groups, such as Revival and the like, notwithstanding, church government in traditional churches is more in keeping with scripture.  I would have it as the first Christians (“Have a read of ch 5 The manners of the Christians: “The Epistle of Mathetes to Diognetus”) and when they came together for fellowship and worship, they cared, they shared, they even gave their lives so that others may benefit, but times are so much different as we have it too easy now and yet we continue to grizzle about who is doing what to whom and not giving the love that they ought as Jesus has shown us the better way, it is all about me, me, me, so what can you expect to happen? Until man has a change of heart it will always be the case until the Lords return.

It is a human trait I guess to lord it over others and in my opinion, it is not Christ like as with many things you would not expect of a Christian. But we have to wear it and we cannot change that. The only thing is, we get it right from scripture and do the best we can to be an example of the Christ like love in us.

 

…..and “I think that I too have the Spirit of God”

 

Ralph.

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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:29/08/2009 3:33 AMCopy HTML

Galien, (#66)

The only way I can answer that is; "What would you do if you could see your daughter was heading toward a cliff and chances are she would fall over the edge and get seriously hurt. Knowing you can prevent that, would you take a chance she would see it and stop?"

Ralph

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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:29/08/2009 5:09 AMCopy HTML

Ralph,

The only way I can answer that is; "What would you do if you could see your daughter was heading toward a cliff and chances are she would fall over the edge and get seriously hurt. Knowing you can prevent that, would you take a chance she would see it and stop?"

If she were 4, or 10 or even 15 I would certainly physically restrain her. But she is 27, it is her life and her cliff and she gets to decide how that pans out, not me. I can express my concerns, but what she does with that is up to her.


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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:29/08/2009 5:31 AMCopy HTML

John

I have a question. You had a dig at Ian's and my ages alluding to you being younger and more attuned to the modern world and so .... "je ne sais quoi" .... "tres chic". So if you are "young" and have a daughter who is 27, would I be correct in assuming you had her at the age of 12? Ask any person under 29 and they will tell you anything after 40 is old. My guess is that you are closer to 50 (it would be naughty of me to even suppose you cold be past 50). If you hear foorsteps, don't be alarmed, it's just old age that has crept up on you. Heh heh heh heh.


Age is just a number John. Just because some people think they have to act a certain way because their digits suggest it, doesnt mean we all have to, or want to. My daughter is adopted, the natural child of my sister, born the day before my 21st birthday. My comments regarding age were alluding to an attitude, not actual digits. I could be 65 or 22, makes no difference to me. I have many friends of differing ages, but then I guess that is something that comes from believing we are all equal. Age makes no difference to me. My current partner is a year younger than me, but may as well be 60 for his attitudes and his bloody disgusting white singlets which are so going to disappear. I have had boyfriends who range in age from 23 to my age. So what? We are all just people.

At 23, when my eldest first came to live with me, I was already an old lady. I dressed like one, I felt like one and I thought like one. All responsibility and stress. My mum had severe depression and I took over the role of bringing up my siblings at a very young age, consequently I never really had a childhood as such. Since my two daughters have been out from under my feet I have been able to spend a bit more time discovering who I am, after loosening the grips of revival, the pente church I attended, and my second husband. My kids think I am living my life backwards, and they are probably right.


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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:29/08/2009 5:41 AMCopy HTML

John,

Jesus didn't pussyfoot with his disciples, rebuking them for their stupidity or lack of discernment on many occasions, he didn't get all kissy and softly ask the sellers of doves or the money changers at the temple, would they please desist, but He made a scourge, threw over their tables and drove them from the temple rebuking them. (Matthew 21:12 & 13) Too authoritarian? Not empathetic enough?

Forgive me for putting people before process, i'm such a cow.

Or more pointedly, Jesus said, something that you (and me) ought take on board and do"Why do you call me 'Lord, Lord' and not do what I tell you?" (Luke 6:46 ESV) Unless you are prepared to do what Jesus said don't state that He is your role model, otherwise it is just egotistic lip service.

Why play at worshipping or believing? If one does not like what God or Jesus have done or are doing, and deem that They are not doing the right things and/or should be doing it much better or different, or more pointedly "our way" because of course we are so cosmic and given the chance would do a much better job, why continue with Christianity or belief at all?

I have no problem with god or jesus, just some people.

You have testified many times that the worldly folk are better than churches....like football clubs (sorry I checked you said "soccer" which would be better described as paraplegic kicking and head bouncing) are much better than churches. So go and join and watch them. Very peaceful. As someone one humorously said "I once went to a brawl and a soccer match broke out". The soccer clubs in Melbourne HATE each other with a vengeance based on racial and religious differences and have even resorted to severe assaults and arson. Soccer here nearly became bankrupt and defunct because of the corruption and violence. Got any other "good" examples?

What I said was christians were NO betterbut probably should be. Do you think it does their PR any good when they can't come up with anything better?

You asked Ralph "what am I to make of that". Well you metaphorically speaking, tried to make origami of steel sheets and failed. You start with a mole hill with Everest as your final goal and complained that everyone including God, wasn't helping your quest. You refuse to accept ANY other way but that which you deem right.

If you say so John. I am who I am, sorry about that. I'm just not the kind of person who can pretend things are okay when they are clearly not. Give it another 30 years and there will be no one left in church.

With regard to your daughter's "perhaps" marriage, the two paths you mention, are NOT the only paths. You are as always tilting at windmills. It hasn't happened yet. But what would I know? My son who also is a teacher, in Taiwan, has just married, a few week back, a Chinese (Taiwanese) Buddhist.

No, they aren't but here in this forum Ian and I represent the opposite ends of the christian spectrum. He is all head, I am all heart. He is all process, I am all people. It's bound to get messy.

If we walk in the way of Jesus, people will by our love to one another (dare I say fellowshipping together! or doing church) know we are His disciples and He will call them by our example. There is nothing in this world that God doesn't know about......trusting and obeying......will align us to His ways.

You are right there, He misses nothing. From what I can see, the average unchurched person does NOT think christians are doing a great job of loving each other. Look at Ian and myself, we cannot agree on ANYTHING. Some example either of us are.
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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:29/08/2009 6:08 AMCopy HTML


Galien,

That's cool, providing one IS aware of the consequences or results of their actions, then the obligation, or duty of care if you like, is taken off the one who is already aware.
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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:29/08/2009 6:17 AMCopy HTML

If I could add to that; as for becoming a Muslim, the implications of are far more than just being religious.
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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:29/08/2009 9:10 AMCopy HTML

To Galien,

I have been reading these posts over time and I find that I am in agreeance with you on a number of aspects. I myself at this point in time could not enter another church, however this does not mean I don't believe the basic tenets of Christianity. I have seen the dreadful harm done by ministers of religion to others and my own family and I know that it will take time for recovery.

It is not for others to judge anyone. Judge not and you shall not be judged.Judgement belongs to God as far as I can tell. This is something Ian needs to remember, only God sees into person's heart. Man cannot.

I have met some people that are Christian who have a better grip on how to Love thy neighbour as thyself than people I spent the last 20 years with and they follow Christ. Well I will try to do those things too and may the Lord help me in that.
The Lord knows all that we have gone through and grace and mercy are what he would give us, therefore that is what we need to extend to others as well.

One can throw scripture around all one likes as Ian does but that doesn't make him right, there are many people who can do that and I am not one of them. Things come to mind when there is a need for them, this is what I know so I won't get into the ring with others.For too long anything that I had to say was treated with derision by those "in the know" so why would I get into a debate. I also was told that I was arrogant and should do as I was told, however God gave me a brain to use, and when something felt wrong I used my brain, if that is arrogant so be it. Where I was if you were a woman and a single mother to boot you were looked down on, the men were superior and they let you know it. Well good luck to them, they will receive their judgement as will others with the same attitude. Definetly not a christian attitude.

Unfortunately, Ian reminds me of them.

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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:29/08/2009 12:23 PMCopy HTML

Hello, Anne.

Unless you have Scripture backing your opinions, I suppose I'll just have to take what you say as that: personal opinion. When a person states, for example, that they "...could not enter another church, however this does not mean that I don't believe the basic tenets of Christianity", it provides a measure of context by which to assess the validity of his or her views. For what it's worth, I also think you should have a much closer look at what Matthew 7:1ff actually teaches. Jesus' was condemning hypocrisy, and not the evaluation of the perspectives, beliefs and behaviours of others.

In closing, and to paraphrase a comment of your own: "one can throw personal opinion around all one likes, but that doesn't make him or her right". Speaking for myself, I'd rather hinge my beliefs on the Word of God. But that's just me.

Blessings,

Ian

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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:29/08/2009 3:15 PMCopy HTML

You know Ian,

It could well be that the purpose of your life is only to serve as a warning to others.................................
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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:30/08/2009 1:25 AMCopy HTML

Galien,

Indeed. Such seems to be the function of the biblical "watchman". Not quite what you had in mind I know, but then again, even a quick comparison of your life to mine puts paid to what you intended. One of us is clearly struggling in the water, the other is safely (and comfortably) within the boat.

Ian

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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:30/08/2009 2:34 AMCopy HTML

Galien,

You are the one who started the first cheap shot about age .... not me.

As you are wont to do, you conveniently skipped the meatier exhortations I gave. You indeed have a problem with God and have said so. I can't remember anyone here asking you to pretend thing are Ok when they are not, but to beseech God, and when you have finished doing that, do it again, but I suspect your will is too important to you to persevere ..... been there, done that.

The "single mother and looked down upon" writing of CaSaMa of course justifies you. Women or men who have not had this "unsurmountable" experience of course cannot experience any suffering or wrongdoing that could possibly compare, let alone overcome by Christ in them (their hope). Of course Ian epitomises that suffering, despite him ever mentioning it like me. I do, because it is drivel. Can I up the ante gain? Try a psycho brutally murdering a sibling and in the midst of the pain, having a church condemn you. Want to keep it up? I bet I can up the ante till you run out of self pity. Or is that possible? You are in fact past the pity and are now becoming the epitome of what you say you hate .... judgement and self opiniation. Ian being about head and you being about heart ..... gimme a break!

"In the world you will have tribulation, but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world" (John 16:33) Now that's a hard call in the midst of despair! How did we hang on? We didn't. God and Jesus hung on to us. The angels rejoice when a sinner repents and they do when a prodigal returns. Want a contest on what's prodigal too? You want to know what shakes my and my wife's resolve? Funnily enough it isn't Ian, he got the dander up in me and I came out fighting and it sparked the faith implanted in me. What shakes me is folk that blame everything and everyone else and that's disheartening. How bloody stupid to put EVERY church into the one size fits all basket. EVERY Christian that goes to church as being a robot or a critic or uncaring. I bet you haven't even visited your local churches or enquired into what local Christians do or how they fellowship. Spare me your usual reply that you don't, and I have misunderstood or some other cockamamie excuse. My French is rusty but there is a French proverb I love "Qui s'excuse 'accuse"...he who excuses himself, accuses himelf.

I hope Ian's resolve does not decay from the putification thrown at it. Yep, he is headstrong and has on occasions name called and denigrated and expressed his desire to thump someone. He stopped doing it to me when I rebuked him (me a hypocrite?). Well that's it ... Ian isn't perfect ... "Everybody ... out of the pool!". How many times did Jesus rebuke Peter? The "get me behind me Satan" would have stung like a bee! How about circa 17+ years after Jesus' death and resurrection Paul rebuking Peter publicly for his separation (Galatians 1 & 2). Yet Peter got over it, saw his error and exhorted others to heed Paul. Unlike you who find Paul not to your liking. Another of God's mistakes?

Do you not EVER take what people say to you or scriptures they quote, and check it with the Bible and pray about whether or not it is so? I notice you "glided by" the "harsh" scriptures where Jesus rebuked, because it does not fit your mould of "gentle Jesus meek and mild".

Ian is not asking you to agree with him. He is not a pastor, he doen't have HIS church. He has exhorted you to obey the scriptures. He doesn't stretch, bandy or misconstrue scripture and has on many occasions pointed out the things that matter versus the things that don't in "doing church". There is a terminology (Ian is BIG on terminology .... theologians love the jargon!) that evades me at this moment that perfectly describes such.

Ian's purpose in life a warning to others? You betcha. It is a big, big, big warning to me. A warning of determination to stick to the knitting, and if you aren't knitting right, learn from knitmasters. A warning that God is merciful, but doesn't suffer fools who want to remain foolish.

The biggest warning is like Christ, he doesn't fit a lot of peoples picture of what they contrue a teacher to be. "But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft rainment? (Matthew 11:8). You sure wouldn't have liked Jesus or John the Baptist. Ordinary looking and harsh to critics.

May God grant you the sense to open your heart, ears and eyes.

John


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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:30/08/2009 3:55 AMCopy HTML

John

You are the one who started the first cheap shot about age .... not me.

Morning John, Hope your doggy is doing okay. Then don't tell me the silly things my grandmother used to say when it comes to human behaviour. Lovely woman, no idea.

As you are wont to do, you conveniently skipped the meatier exhortations I gave. You indeed have a problem with God and have said so. I can't remember anyone here asking you to pretend thing are Ok when they are not, but to beseech God, and when you have finished doing that, do it again, but I suspect your will is too important to you to persevere ..... been there, done that.

I'm not you mate, try and remember that.

The "single mother and looked down upon" writing of CaSaMa of course justifies you. Women or men who have not had this "unsurmountable" experience of course cannot experience any suffering or wrongdoing that could possibly compare, let alone overcome by Christ in them (their hope). Of course Ian epitomises that suffering, despite him ever mentioning it like me. I do, because it is drivel. Can I up the ante gain? Try a psycho brutally murdering a sibling and in the midst of the pain, having a church condemn you. Want to keep it up? I bet I can up the ante till you run out of self pity. Or is that possible? You are in fact past the pity and are now becoming the epitome of what you say you hate .... judgement and self opiniation. Ian being about head and you being about heart ..... gimme a break!

I am happy to give you a break John which is more than Ian is prepared to give anyone. As long as you errantly continue to believe I have a problem with self pity because I explain myself, is about as long as you will continutally grab hold of the entire wrong end of the stick.

The very fact Ian feels the need to put the boot in to every single person who still has the courage left to offer an opinion that differs from his tells me this man has a problem. He seems to think that the entirety of christianity consists of telling others how wrong they are. It consists of much much more than that. In true revival fashion he throws every single scripture at a person that justifies his pathological need to rebuke others, and seems to completely ignore those that describe a person with the fruit of allowing god's spirit to change them.

Just a bit too much like be the biggest asshole in the village, but if you speak in tongues nicely, its all good?

Love, joy, peace, gentleness, kindness, goodness, faith, temperance and longsuffering. Do you see the ability to rebuke with the best of them in this list? No, but he hammers it consistently to all comers like it is the template for being a christian and nothing else matters. And if you know of a case where a person's sibling was murdered and the person suffering not supported, why would you continue to defend a group that would act that way?

If you want to sit around emulating Job while these bastards continue hurting people, fine, you do that. Its about time churches were held as accountable as everyone else for the emotional damage they do. I guess that like everyone else, it will not hit home to them until it starts costing them money. Ian constantly talks about mutual accountability, but I cannot see that churches have ANY accountability for the way they hurt people John. If they do, tell me how?

The thing that shits me about Ian is that it is his type of attitude that causes the problems in churches in the first place. We are here to rebuke you, god TELLS us to so the means justify the end. The means do NOT justify the end. Shoes tells me yesterday that it is okay to pour antiseptic in a person's wound for their good, so rebuking people must be okay. Not if it puts a person in a psych ward it isn't. What kind of a christian hammers and hammers a person until they feel defeated and walk away? What the hell is that?

"In the world you will have tribulation, but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world" (John 16:33) Now that's a hard call in the midst of despair! How did we hang on? We didn't. God and Jesus hung on to us. The angels rejoice when a sinner repents and they do when a prodigal returns. Want a contest on what's prodigal too?

I don't want a contest on ANYTHING John. That's Ian's hobby horse not mine. I have never blamed the things that have happened to me on anyone else, unless those things were their fault. One of the standout features of dealing with my own pathology has been letting GO of the need to take on responsibility for everything that happens whether it has been my fault or not, NOT the other way around thanks John.

You want to know what shakes my and my wife's resolve? Funnily enough it isn't Ian, he got the dander up in me and I came out fighting and it sparked the faith implanted in me. What shakes me is folk that blame everything and everyone else and that's disheartening. How bloody stupid to put EVERY church into the one size fits all basket. EVERY Christian that goes to church as being a robot or a critic or uncaring. I bet you haven't even visited your local churches or enquired into what local Christians do or how they fellowship. Spare me your usual reply that you don't, and I have misunderstood or some other cockamamie excuse. My French is rusty but there is a French proverb I love "Qui s'excuse 'accuse"...he who excuses himself, accuses himelf.

I am not saying that EVERYONE in EVERY church is like that. 90% of my friends are church attending christians, and if they were like that, they would not be my friends. I am tired of the way christians just hand over trust and loyalty to people who run churches because it is what they "should" do, never mind whether these persons have shown themselves to be trustworthy or not, just do it because, well, they are there and god backs everyone in positions of authority.

I hope Ian's resolve does not decay from the putification thrown at it. Yep, he is headstrong and has on occasions name called and denigrated and expressed his desire to thump someone. He stopped doing it to me when I rebuked him (me a hypocrite?). Well that's it ... Ian isn't perfect ... "Everybody ... out of the pool!". How many times did Jesus rebuke Peter? The "get me behind me Satan" would have stung like a bee! How about circa 17+ years after Jesus' death and resurrection Paul rebuking Peter publicly for his separation (Galatians 1 & 2). Yet Peter got over it, saw his error and exhorted others to heed Paul. Unlike you who find Paul not to your liking. Another of God's mistakes?

I don't have to like ANYTHING john, and neither do you. No Ian isn't perfect, you may wish to remind him of that, coz he sure as hell expects everyone else to be. He's a spiritual bully, and you people just let him get away with it. Straight into that lady who left a message yesterday, didn't even draw breath. He just could not resist trying to make her feel stupid. He's just SO worthy of my trust and loyalty. About as worthy as any revival pastor.

Do you not EVER take what people say to you or scriptures they quote, and check it with the Bible and pray about whether or not it is so? I notice you "glided by" the "harsh" scriptures where Jesus rebuked, because it does not fit your mould of "gentle Jesus meek and mild".

Mate, I have no trouble with rebuking, what is that you think I am doing with Ian, playing silly buggers? But no, there is no way god would have sent me to do that here is there, because Ian is the resident rebuker, and as such needs no rebuke. Yeah right.

Ian is not asking you to agree with him. He is not a pastor, he doen't have HIS church. He has exhorted you to obey the scriptures. He doesn't stretch, bandy or misconstrue scripture and has on many occasions pointed out the things that matter versus the things that don't in "doing church". There is a terminology (Ian is BIG on terminology .... theologians love the jargon!) that evades me at this moment that perfectly describes such.

Doing church? I don't DO CHURCH, I do life. If he thinks rebuking others is the star attraction of DOING CHURCH, fine. For me it is allowing God to change me into a person who is humble, who loves others, and who does show the fruit of the spirit. Ian is TELLING me that HIS interpretation of scripture is right, that HIS frame of reference is correct, signed sealed an delivered with God's approval in triplicate and I should be emulating IAN and his understanding of everything. That Ian's legalistic performance based view of loving god is the right one and everyone else is an idiot.This from a man who cannot resist putting the boot into people at the drop of a hat, and who would not know how to apologise if his life depended upon it. Certainly not to marginal, ungodly pieces of crap like me who refuse to make the right noises for the approval of others.

Ian's purpose in life a warning to others? You betcha. It is a big, big, big warning to me. A warning of determination to stick to the knitting, and if you aren't knitting right, learn from knitmasters. A warning that God is merciful, but doesn't suffer fools who want to remain foolish.

The warning bells that go off in my head with regard to Ian are MORE OF THE SAME. More of the same bullshit revival fed us. More of the YOU WILL BE AFRAID THAT GOD WILL REJECT YOU IF YOU DON'T STICK TO THE LETTER OF THE LAW, AS INTERPRETED BY US, AND BACKED UP BY THE WORD OF GOD SO IT CAN'T POSSIBLy BE WRONG. Add a couple of degrees in theology, and hey presto, once again we have the magic god formula for living, administered of course by those "who know".

The biggest warning is like Christ, he doesn't fit a lot of peoples picture of what they contrue a teacher to be. "But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft rainment? (Matthew 11:8). You sure wouldn't have liked Jesus or John the Baptist. Ordinary looking and harsh to critics.

Neither do I John. I have NO interest in what "should be". I love Jesus and I love ordinary looking people. I am not what a christian "should" be either. I don't "think" like a christian apparently. I just don't trust people who flash their spiritual badge at me and expect me to be impressed. In this world, it doesn't take a real lot of anything good to be an authority on anything. SHOW ME THE MONEY. Strangely enough I need to see the fruit of the spirit in people who come to me claming they represent god.


May God grant you the sense to open your heart, ears and eyes.

Well he has granted me pretty well everything else, so I am sure that won't be too hard for him.

And John, just because a person is capable of articulating the experiences that have made them who they are, that does NOT mean they have self pity. That is exactly what I mean when I talk about the age/attitude thing.
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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:30/08/2009 4:19 AMCopy HTML

I have been reading these posts over time and I find that I am in agreeance with you on a number of aspects. I myself at this point in time could not enter another church, however this does not mean I don't believe the basic tenets of Christianity. I have seen the dreadful harm done by ministers of religion to others and my own family and I know that it will take time for recovery.

Yes CaSaMa, it is a shame there are those who cannot understand the depth of the hurt caused. They seem to have a "just get over it" mentality. What they don't understand is that some of us are not prepared to put ourselves in harm's way again.

It is not for others to judge anyone. Judge not and you shall not be judged.Judgement belongs to God as far as I can tell. This is something Ian needs to remember, only God sees into person's heart. Man cannot.

No we cannot see into the heart of another.

I have met some people that are Christian who have a better grip on how to Love thy neighbour as thyself than people I spent the last 20 years with and they follow Christ. Well I will try to do those things too and may the Lord help me in that.
The Lord knows all that we have gone through and grace and mercy are what he would give us, therefore that is what we need to extend to others as well.

Same. I think that some of us are not afraid to admit we have trouble coping with evil, are extra sensitive and the hurt goes all the way to our soul. It wasn't like that for everyone who was in revival and it has taken me a while to work that out. It just didn't affect them to a soul level, and those kinds of soul wounds are very deep. Its the same as with my depression. If you haven't been there you don't understand what it is like to always feel like a person you loved dearly just passed away, but there is no reason to feel like that.

One can throw scripture around all one likes as Ian does but that doesn't make him right, there are many people who can do that and I am not one of them. Things come to mind when there is a need for them, this is what I know so I won't get into the ring with others.For too long anything that I had to say was treated with derision by those "in the know" so why would I get into a debate. I also was told that I was arrogant and should do as I was told, however God gave me a brain to use, and when something felt wrong I used my brain, if that is arrogant so be it. Where I was if you were a woman and a single mother to boot you were looked down on, the men were superior and they let you know it. Well good luck to them, they will receive their judgement as will others with the same attitude. Definetly not a christian attitude.

Always made me wonder why they thought that kind of behaviour was okay. Yes certain men seem to have a problem with mistaking adults around them for children, particularly women. No point doing what you are told if it is crap though hey? God did give us a brain but at times others expect us to give it up. Why would we do that AGAIN?

Unfortunately, Ian reminds me of them.

Me too. I can see no real difference between what he presents as christianity, and what revival presented.

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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:30/08/2009 5:34 AMCopy HTML

Galien,

You don't take advice or correction well, do you? Too proud?

Ian

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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:30/08/2009 6:44 AMCopy HTML

Ian,

You don't take advice or correction well, do you? Too proud?

Well if pride is the contemplation of one's own excellence, then no, its not pride, seeing I don't have any excellence as such.  Advice? I get lots of advice, depends whether it is worth listening to or not, and why I think the person is trying to give me said advice. As for correction, well I guess I take that about as well as you do.

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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:30/08/2009 6:58 AMCopy HTML

To Galien,

Thank you for your response, it seems we are on the same wave length. Fremde's response reminded me of the Young Peoples leader where I went. I don't use the single mother thing as a problem that is "unsurmountable or worse than anything someone else may go through" issue it is just the truth. I didn't ask to be a single mother it is just what happened so I figured that if that was how it was then God must have thought that I could manage the situation, however others seemed to think that I was not up to it so they interfered. That was destructive for two of my kids who ended up with depression, one however is worse than the other and now needs professional help. He went to the pastor for help and was told he was stupid, now that gets my back up and he has lost his faith at this point in time and that is tragic. People who teach the Bible need to be very careful indeed with what they have to say.

I will be a lot more discerning in future about churches and what they have to offer. As for the Anglican church I was in that before revival and so was my mother. She went to the same church for 40 odd years and when she died they didn't even know who she was but they were always ready to send her envelopes to put her offering in and to remind her if she didn't. So with the two experiences over my lifetime it begs the question about the soul or the money and as far as I can see it's all about money and the love of that is the root of all evil.

And don't worry about Ian trying to make me feel stupid I had a feeling he might respond - he got sucked in and I got a laugh. Sometimes people just need to look in the mirror and see what they really are. At the moment the mental health of my family and I is of the utmost importance and that is what we will look to and I have to forgive myself for putting my children in a place where they were spiritually scarred however those that did the scarring will come before the Lord and have to face Him as we all do.

I won't be giving up my brain for anyone again. I am required to use it that's why I was given one and to use it responsibly.
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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:30/08/2009 7:01 AMCopy HTML

Galien,

Interesting response. I'm left with the distinct impression that you won't heed any advice that conflicts with your beliefs, regardless of who gives it, but all the more so if said advice comes from a man. For all your self-justification and self-promotion over these past months, I just don't see you wanting to change. It almost seems as if you're actually content with your "neat" little "package" of woes.

Ian

email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:30/08/2009 7:04 AMCopy HTML

Hi, Anne.

I hope you won't mind me asking the question, but what's your personal experience of Christianity and the Christian Church? Is it just of the one Anglican church followed by Revivalism, or is it perhaps a little broader than what you've indicated to date? And further, could you please let me know how "using one's brain responsibly" prevents or prohibits a person from being in active Christian fellowship? I must confess, I didn't see the link.

Blessings,

Ian

email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:30/08/2009 8:43 AMCopy HTML

Rocky news,

Rocky is not long for this world. However Sophie (the Supervet) emailed (ain't the Internet marvellous!) our local pharmacy and we picked up some pain killer pills. After just a day Rocky is not the same dog he was but he is speaking to us again and eating a little. This afternoon I took him for his usual walk around the factory estate near my business. He was glad to get out of the car and immediately ate some grass, which my wife calls dog medicine. He sniffed in all of his old haunts but he was real slow so I shortened the walk.

When I got back I told Sharon that he had found "aromatherapy" which only a dog would relish. He had found a dead possum and had a good sniff of it for a while. We laughed and he wagged his tail. Spoiled and loved.

Sophie has opinions about his cancer and is seeking guidance from a professor Monday, as to its extent, and if it is operable and would respond to chemotherapy.

Meanwhile my father-in-law is getting a pacemaker and his prostate bleeding is being monitored. Also meanwhile an army comrade is recovering from nearly dieing from pneumonia and is in rehab. I think I might just live in the car and just drive to hospitals and vets picking up take away food in transit! Oh I forgot. I did ask "what can I bring you" and so I shop in transit too!

I got lost last night trying to find Royal Melbourne Rehab in Parkville. When I arrived half an hour late my army comrade said to the nurse "He was hopeless at navigation in the army too. it's a wonder he every passed out as an officer." Wonderful! Nearly forty years on, and what am I remembered for? Bad navigation!

Many thanks to those of you who have comforted me.

Blessings

John
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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:30/08/2009 9:38 AMCopy HTML

Interesting response. I'm left with the distinct impression that you won't heed any advice that conflicts with your beliefs, regardless of who gives it, but all the more so if said advice comes from a man. For all your self-justification and self-promotion over these past months, I just don't see you wanting to change. It almost seems as if you're actually content with your "neat" little "package" of woes.


Kind of works both ways Ian. You are no more prepared now to stop being a prick to people than I am to accept your view that being able to rebuke a person is the sum total of being a responsible christian.

See even the assumption  that I need to change and you don't speaks volumes. I don't have a package of woes Ian, the only time I seem to develop woes at all is when I surrender my power of thought to christians. Self justification? I could probably wear that. Wouldn't need to to though if I weren't consistently hammered by your belief that I am accountable to you in some way that you are NOT accountable to me.

Self promotion? Well thats a complete joke.
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