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Date Posted:20/08/2009 9:48 AMCopy HTML

Galien. ian models himself on paul, i dont like paul as a person ... so? doesntmean i have to like the arrogant way he treated people ... again,paul is no more important than any one of us". Bollocks. Paul was an APOSTLE, this calling and labour is what sets him apart from you and me. There IS a hierarchy in the plan and purpose of God, including in the Church, and including in the Kingdom. I hate to break the news to you (again), but we are NOT all equal in the sight of God :nuts: Ian

That's right Ian, I forgot again. You are so much more important than the rest of us by virtue of your amazing knowledge.

It is for exactly reasons outlined above that you can take your version of church and, well, jam it really.

What on earth makes you think I would re-immerse myself amongst another group of people for whom worldly power, status and hierarchy are all important?

Your worldview and mine are at opposite ends of the spectrum. You still think the pathetic wisdom and set up of this world have some kind of credibility. You love the heirarchy structure and why wouldn't you since you have managed to worm your way up it. You are no different from the Brian Houstons of this world in your own way.

The bible clearly states that in christ there is no jew or greek, no man nor woman, no slave nor master, for we are all one in Christ Jesus. Our sin MAKES us equal Ian.

But you know better than all of that dont you, just like you know better than my therapist.

The basis of spiritual abuse is believing you have the truth and control the truth and it is your job to police the truth.

Like revival, you believe you have the ability to say who is in and who is out of the kingdom of god. That should scare you ian, but it doesn't.

You have said to me that god will not love or accept me if i do not attend church. That in itself is a heresy.

Quoting scripture is pointless, because in your eyes only you seem to have a correct interpretation. When you qute it, its because you are right, when anyone else does its a "prooftext".

You are a hard man Ian, and a foolish one. I would rather stick needles in my eyes than ever set foot again in a church of abusers like you.




 
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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:20/08/2009 5:29 PMCopy HTML

Galien,

Your conclusions are unsound. I have had perceived faults with Ian (real and imagined) but I don't remember him ever stating that he models himself on Paul per se. You say you don't like Paul. Why because he wrote things you don't like? If it comes down to picking and choosing what we don't like in the SCRIPTURES (yep Paul's writings in what we call The New Testament, are indeed SCRIPTURES) then we are taking from the Word of God and that's downright dangerous.

"All men are created equal" is not in the Bible. Old and New Testaments lay down hierarchies, like it or not. There are many scriptures exhorting us to obey them that have the rule over us. Ian in one of our many sparrings once accused me of not being able to subject myself to authority .... he reasoned such I'd guess because I was challenging his authority .... and at the time, instead of praying about it and letting the Holy Spirit guide and calm me I lashed back....sound familiar Galien?

He was right in as much as I don't suffer fools, especially those I have had the displeasure of working for and in the case of pastors (so called) finding me very useful for administration, printing, helping people get jobs, getting them finance etc. etc. then spent rest of the time venting their lilly livers on me because I was near at hand. However when I have respected bosses, elders etc. I have fallen into line quickly and obediently. Because I liked them and one tends to catch more flies with honey that vinegar.

Indeed we are all one in Christ, male, female, Jew, Greek, bond and fee. However the Bible also says that a wife is to be in subjection to her husband...and before you throw a hissy fit.....note that the husband is exhorted to love his wife in the same manner Christ loves us....so it is a rule with conditions attached.

You don't like Ian's "heresy" about having to be in fellowship with a church (bearing in mind that a church is people, not a building), he needles me about the same. I have loose fellowship with other Christians, but with or without Ian's exhortation/rebuke, I know that it is not right, nor does it do me any good, being without the nurture and exchange good fellowship has. Besides, one cannot have communion with out common union.

You state that Ian abuses you. Kids stuff. Ian used to rip into me mercilessly. I reaped what I sowed, however those blows that don't break my back, often strengthen it. Do you not see yourself being abusive? Have you ever bitten you tongue? Can you? I warned you some time ago that you will not beat Ian and you will do yourself more hurt for trying.

It is Ian's job to police the truth.....whether you or I or anyone else likes it, he has been called as a teacher, not because he says so, or I say so, but because it is obvious. I don't envy his job...I do however envy his linguistic abilities, after three years I am still struggling learning German.

It is not only Ian's job to police the truth, we all have an obligation. The scripture doesn't say in vain the we are to exhort one another while today is today.

If you do exhort though, you had better know what you are talking about, scriptually, and not your own opinions, or you will have no support from God and only come a cropper (I have the scars to prove it).

The fruit of righteousness is sown in peace in them that make peace. So don't immediately go into banshee mode, have a think about it, and what's more important, pray about it, and if you are still stroppy, go back and pray again.

John (in the love of Christ)

p.s. It is the wee small hour of the morning, so I haven't added all the scripture references because I have to get some sleep because Rocky (our old Australian/Cairn Terrier cross) is sick and I need to get him medical help tomorrow. I would hope you know where the scriptures are, or how to find them, if not let me know and I will add them at a later time.

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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:20/08/2009 8:31 PMCopy HTML

Fremde,

If it comes down to picking and choosing what we don't like in the SCRIPTURES (yep Paul's writings in what we call The New Testament, are indeed SCRIPTURES) then we are taking from the Word of God and that's downright dangerous.

I don't pick and choose which scriptures I do or do not like. I do pick and choose the way I treat other people. My default position is one of kindness, gentleness and acceptance. I do not feel the need to ride roughshod over others like a tank. Those who do choose to do so out of some misplaced belief that god has called them to should expect the occasional return fire.

"All men are created equal" is not in the Bible. Old and New Testaments lay down hierarchies, like it or not. There are many scriptures exhorting us to obey them that have the rule over us. Ian in one of our many sparrings once accused me of not being able to subject myself to authority .... he reasoned such I'd guess because I was challenging his authority .... and at the time, instead of praying about it and letting the Holy Spirit guide and calm me I lashed back....sound familiar Galien?

His authority? Why I am the only person who can see how much pride this man has in his "authority"? He has made an idol out of it. Heirarchies are something that humans love because it appeals to their natural man. I have spent 48 years on the planet you know, and I don't miss much. Ever thought about the amount of damage done to people by those who have the need to lord it over others? To me, being a christian should be making one MORE humble not less. I have learned a lot in my life time, but I don't feel the need to ram it down everyone's throat. I'd much rather just love them, because that is what god has taught me to do.


He was right in as much as I don't suffer fools, especially those I have had the displeasure of working for and in the case of pastors (so called) finding me very useful for administration, printing, helping people get jobs, getting them finance etc. etc. then spent rest of the time venting their lilly livers on me because I was near at hand. However when I have respected bosses, elders etc. I have fallen into line quickly and obediently. Because I liked them and one tends to catch more flies with honey that vinegar.

Im guessing you are about 20 years older than me John. The world has changed mate, one needs to earn respect these days, you don't get it for free. If you are an asshole who rides roughshod over others, they WILL tell you to piss off. The real world is not the revival centre. I don't need to "fall into line". I dispute the need for a "line" in the first place. I do what I do because I have a strong work ethic and someone is paying me to do the best job I can for them, and they know I will. I don't need constant policing because I have boatloads of integrity and everyone who knows me, knows that. And, like you, because admin is my talent I have been used by churches. NEVER again.

Indeed we are all one in Christ, male, female, Jew, Greek, bond and fee. However the Bible also says that a wife is to be in subjection to her husband...and before you throw a hissy fit.....note that the husband is exhorted to love his wife in the same manner Christ loves us....so it is a rule with conditions attached.

Which is why you won't find me getting married again. As far as I am concerned, the only people with the right to demand obedience are parents. Anyone else who demands obedience from other adults outside law enforcement has a mental health problem.

You don't like Ian's "heresy" about having to be in fellowship with a church (bearing in mind that a church is people, not a building), he needles me about the same. I have loose fellowship with other Christians, but with or without Ian's exhortation/rebuke, I know that it is not right, nor does it do me any good, being without the nurture and exchange good fellowship has. Besides, one cannot have communion with out common union.

If I thought for one minute I could go back to church and have it populated with people who actually have a clue what Jesus is all about I would. Do you think I don't feel ripped off? I don't want to back to a place full of Ians who run around pounding their bibles and telling me how wrong I am, how they own the correct interpretation of the bible and how I had better buy it or I'm in deep shit. That is NO different from revival.

You state that Ian abuses you. Kids stuff. Ian used to rip into me mercilessly.

Yes he's good at that. Clearly had a lot of practice. So god has called him to laugh everyone to scorn who doesnt agree with his interpretation of the bible? Glad he got the job and not me. I am not naturally inclined to feel superior and treat people like shit.

I reaped what I sowed, however those blows that don't break my back, often strengthen it. Do you not see yourself being abusive? Have you ever bitten you tongue? Can you? I warned you some time ago that you will not beat Ian and you will do yourself more hurt for trying.

Bitten my tongue? About 3/4 of the time. If I didn't have god as the centre of my life, I think I would be particularly scary. Beat Ian? Is it a competition? I have mentioned that after I left revival the pastor told me god didnt love me anymore and I believed him. After I had healed from that I sat down and did a lot of research into spiritual abuse. I really mulled over the psychological power that people hand over to "oversight". I decided then that no matter what happened in my life, I would never accept a position of power in a church. I NEVER want to be in a position to hurt another person's faith. To use the things I know to hurt, to make feel guilty, to shame, to steal from their soul.

Never again would I let another person get in between god and i and tell me what our relationship was. Only evil people try to do that. It is one thing to bring the gospel to others, it is another thing entirely to dictate to a person how they should love god.

Power is an evil, evil thing John and it corrupts people. Even those who say they love god.


It is Ian's job to police the truth.....whether you or I or anyone else likes it, he has been called as a teacher, not because he says so, or I say so, but because it is obvious. I don't envy his job...I do however envy his linguistic abilities, after three years I am still struggling learning German.

Being a teacher is not about policing anything. It is about bringing knowledge to a person. Other than dealing with religious nutjobs and those who loved money did we see Jesus ramming things down people's throats and DEMANDING that they meet his requirements? No, he said what he needed to say, and moved on. He didn't need to WIN. He was a gentleman. Ian is not. Anyone can label themself and say god has called me to do this. The proof of the pudding is in the eating John.

It is not only Ian's job to police the truth, we all have an obligation. The scripture doesn't say in vain the we are to exhort one another while today is today.

Exhortation is soft and gentle, not threatening and overpowering. I don't need to be policed thanks, just as in my job, in my inner life I have boatloads of integrity and I know what I am meant to do, and how I am meant to do it. I never had anyone to look after me, I had practically no real childhood. I have been a grown up for a very long time and I don't need Ian and his ilk to keep me in perpetual childhood a la revival.

If you do exhort though, you had better know what you are talking about, scriptually, and not your own opinions, or you will have no support from God and only come a cropper (I have the scars to prove it).

Ian gave you scars. Nice. Do you think god had scars in mind when he gave us the following scripture?

Colossians 3:12
Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience.

Just because Ian has developed a culture here based on "you better know what you are talking about scripture or you will have no support from god" doesnt make it true. Ian is the one with the requirements, not god. He can bend it and twist it any way he wants, revival taught him well.

We are to be as wise as serpents, as gentle as doves. Ian has developed the first part, but ignored the second. We all have things to learn from god and from each other, even Ian.

The fruit of righteousness is sown in peace in them that make peace. So don't immediately go into banshee mode, have a think about it, and what's more important, pray about it, and if you are still stroppy, go back and pray again.

Its not about being stroppy John, it is about injustice. Jesus hated it, I hate it. I will not allow abusers to run amok in my life ever again, or anyone else's if I can help it.

Hope your dog gets better soon.
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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:20/08/2009 11:30 PMCopy HTML

Jesus said he that is chief among you shall be your SERVANT,Matt 20 Vs 25  to 27,Luke 22 vs 24  to 27,Mark 10 vs 42 to 45,.Paul said that he was the LEAST of all the apostles Cor 15 vs 9.The Lord kept him HUMBLE by shipwrecks,beatings,imprisonment etc.JESUS came to SERVE not to RULE.He also said call no MAN Father.If you think you have to bow down to MEN I feel sorry for you.Israel wanted a King to RULE them not GOD.
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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:21/08/2009 1:19 AMCopy HTML

Good morning, Galien.


I simply accept that such exists and work within them.

Work them for all they are worth more like. Remember Ian I know a few majors and generals of my own. I'm not the only one that thinks you are a wanker.

And of course, any position that I might have within any hierarchy hasn't been the result of me supposedly "worming" my way there, it's been the result of me earning my way there. One "reaps" what one "sows" if I might apply the analogy, just as the "labourer" is "worthy of his wages" or the "steward" is rewarded by his Master according to his acumen.

And you sir, clearly have your reward ALREADY.

The bible clearly states that in christ there is no jew or greek, no man nor woman, no slave nor master, for we are all one in Christ Jesus. Our sin MAKES us equal Ian.

We've addressed this in detail previously, and yet in spite of this you still refuse to bend to the biblical teaching. All humans stand equally condemned in the sight of God by virtue of the fact of sin. However, God in his grace created some to be "vessels of honour", and some to be "vessels of dishonour" as the KJV so quaintly put things

You of course being a vessel of honour. Puke.

I do "know better than all that", as the subject relates to Scripture and Christian teaching, fields which I am well advanced in learning and understanding to you. As to whether or not I know better than your therapist, if s/he is telling you to avoid corporate Christian community and involvement for the sake of your mental health then, "yes", I'd have to state that I do know better in this respect. As it is, from what you've shared, "isolation" from the Church doesn't seem to be working too well for you anyway.

Ian the psychiatrist now. Laughable. Goose.

Actually, 'no', the basis of spiritual abuse is the believing of a lie.

Spiritual abuse is  the manipulation and exploitation of others by the misuse of spiritual privilege and power. By definition, the majority of those who perpetrate such abuse are officeholders in Australia’s churches and religious institutions.

David Johnson & Jeff Van Vonderen in The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse describe the action of spiritual abuse: "It is possible to become so determined to defend a spiritual place of authority, a doctrine or a way of doing things that you wound and abuse anyone who questions, or disagrees, or doesn't "behave" spiritually the way you want them to. When your words and actions tear down another, or attack or weaken a person's standing as a Christian - to gratify you, your position or your beliefs while at the same time weakening or harming another - that is spiritual abuse".

I don't get to decide who is in or out, I simply get to point out what God has already decided as being the case in his Word. You cut yourself off from corporate Christian community and discipline, therefore you decided to bring yourself under the condemnation of God. Both Old Testament and New Testament are crystal clear on this matter: a person who identifies with God's people, but who is cut-off from said people, is under the ban of God. There are no "ifs" or "buts".

Oh so now I am under the condemnation of God?

I at no point said that God does not love you, so you've simply borne false witness (again). However, I have stated that God does not accept you when you refuse to submit to the authority of Jesus Christ to determine your behaviour, your associations and your conduct. And you don't; your "Christianity" is on your terms, not Christ's. God's not "big" on rebellion, in case you hadn't noticed.

galien: ian, do you believe that god will not love or accept me if i dont attend a local church? just answer the question
20 Aug 09, 14:36
Didaktikon: Galien. I already did. God's acceptance is contingent upon our obedience. Ian
20 Aug 09, 14:36
galien: so your answer is yes?
20 Aug 09, 14:36
Didaktikon: Galien. Yes. Ian

Yep Im such a BIG liar. I have no trouble accepting the authority of Jesus Christ. Just losers like you who have talked yourself into believing you are his right hand man. Lloyd must be SO jealous. You are DEMANDING people submit to YOU, and using God's holy word to do so. You are still a revivalist Ian. Different building, same tired old self centred bullshit.

Yes, but you're "blind" anyway, aren't you?

Maybe, but not to assholes like you.
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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:21/08/2009 1:53 AMCopy HTML

You're nothing if not consistent! As to your quip about knowing certain Army officers, perhaps you'd care to name those of your acquaintance who apparently think of me the way that you do? You see, I struggle thinking of any of my peers whom I don't get on well with

No I wouldn't care to name them. Humans can be SO two faced Ian. And no apology for calling me a liar? No suprise there.

In You are biblically illiterate, theologically uninformed.

And you are apparently biblically literate, theologically informed, yet still completely ignorant of the things that matter most.

Ignorance combined with arrogance never makes for a pretty mix.

No it doesn't. You may want to stop living that way.

 
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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:21/08/2009 2:09 AMCopy HTML

Ian,

Point one: won't name them? Or can't name them because they don't exist?

 

Can, but won’t.

 

Point two: you did bear false witness (i.e. lied) as the very CBox comments you pasted demonstrated.

 

Did not. Question was asked and answered CLEARLY.

 

Point three: the things that matter most are the very things you refuse to consider.

Then I guess we shall have to leave it at that. I hope for your sake one day Ian you learn how to stop lying to yourself. You have a serious problem with spiritual pride. I did try to tell you, and I am sure I am not the first. Remember that when you are explaining to god why you didn’t heed his warnings.

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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:21/08/2009 3:09 AMCopy HTML

Galien,

Sorry, but you're simply not credible.

And you have no idea.


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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:21/08/2009 3:23 AMCopy HTML

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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:21/08/2009 5:13 AMCopy HTML

Galien,

So you know Majors and Generals (plural). Any Field Marshals? I could maybe believe you know one major, however unlikely. Being a "field" rank, the army hasn't that many per se. It's not easy to get to that rank. Generals? Highly unlikely. I met a General once, because my father had work associations with him. our meeting was brief. I dare say that even Ian, as a field officer, wouldn't exactly be dropping in at a General's office discussing the footy.

I worked for a division of RTZ in the UK and got reasonably high up the ladder, but my chances of ever meeting the chairman of RTZ was pretty well zero. A client, on whom I made demands for payment and was a shareholder of RTZ complained to the Chairman about me. I was quizzed by one of the directors. He reported back to the Chairman and in due course I received a copy of a letter sent to the client, in which the Chairman stated that "it was with me he had to do" (I loved the terminology) and if he didn't pay I would, on behalf of the company, sue him. Despite all this we didn't and still don't exchange birthday or Christmas cards.

A friend of mine had a way of dealing with name droppers, he used to sing, to the tune of "Onward Christian Soldiers"...."Lloyd George knew my father, my father knew Lloyd George, Lloyd George knew my father, my father knew Lloyd George, Lloyd George knew my father, my father knew Lloyd George,etc.

Who was Loyd George? you ask....he was a Prime Minister of England (1916 - 1922).

Now let's suppose that you do know hundreds or even perhaps thousands of Generals and Majors, no one of those ranks would discuss the character of another SENIOR officer for a myriad of reasons, some of which are, it is forbidden under the legal auspices of good conduct and discipline, it is conduct unbecoming an officer, and what happens in the army, by and large, stays in the army, and even the most trivial discussions would amount to disclosure under the official secrets act.

I too am a retired officer (three ranks below Major) and am still legally bound by the same regulations and morally otherwise bound, some thirty-seven years on.

To be a good liar on needs to know ones facts, be ably to deliver them strongly, and have a good memory. Your credibility has bottomed out.

John

p.s. A training video for you to watch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYZM__VdEjk&feature=related
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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:21/08/2009 6:26 AMCopy HTML

Galien,

So you know Majors and Generals (plural).

Was meant to be a general term for military personnel, ranking and non-ranking.

I dare say that even Ian, as a field officer, wouldn't exactly be dropping in at a General's office discussing the footy.

He'd probably give it a crack though. Never hurts to network.

A friend of mine had a way of dealing with name droppers, he used to sing, to the tune of "Onward Christian Soldiers"...."Lloyd George knew my father, my father knew Lloyd George, Lloyd George knew my father, my father knew Lloyd George, Lloyd George knew my father, my father knew Lloyd George,etc.

Neither you nor Ian know who I know, or why I know them. Its not that big a world.

Who was Loyd George? you ask....he was a Prime Minister of England (1916 - 1922).

And why would you assume I didn't know that?

Now let's suppose that you do know hundreds or even perhaps thousands of Generals and Majors, no one of those ranks would discuss the character of another SENIOR officer for a myriad of reasons, some of which are, it is forbidden under the legal auspices of good conduct and discipline, it is conduct unbecoming an officer, and what happens in the army, by and large, stays in the army, and even the most trivial discussions would amount to disclosure under the official secrets act.

Oh John really. You really do seem to think that people are much better than they really are. Showing your age there I think.

I too am a retired officer (three ranks below Major) and am still legally bound by the same regulations and morally otherwise bound, some thirty-seven years on.

Yes but you have integrity mate unlike a lot of other people in the world, military personnel included.

To be a good liar on needs to know ones facts, be ably to deliver them strongly, and have a good memory. Your credibility has bottomed out.

Well never having been a liar, good or otherwise, I wouldn't know.

Firstly John, understand I don't give a toss what a person's status is. Just because people from your generation think the sun shines out of the bottoms of your "betters", don't assume everyone thinks that way. Those days are largely over. The world is a different place now. I don't need to drop names because they mean no more to me than the name of the person who lives next door or sells me my milk every day.

Ian is a legend in his own lunchbox, but out here in the real world, he is just another bloke.

Bothers me though how ready you two are to call other people liars.

Not cool, not kind.

Try to keep the old boy's club backslapping down to a dull roar. Its bad enough having the nauseating sycophancy of Eric to deal with.
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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:21/08/2009 7:03 AMCopy HTML


Consequently, as an individual she simply can't reason adequately with any position that strikes against her core beliefs, something that's been established time-and-again on both this forum and in the "Cbox".  Consider how stridently she seeks to defend the idea that she is "equal" to everyone else, for example. But to Galien notions of "equality" extend from the person to the "worth" of ideas and opinions whether they are informed by the facts or not, whether they are reasonable or not, whether they are logical or not (hence she's claimed in the past that she can read "as well as anyone else", and so has nothing to learn about theology from theologians, or medicine from Doctors).

If I might wax biblical for a moment, Galien has "eyes" but can't "see", and "ears" but won't "hear". It's probably better to "save your breath for cooling your porridge", then, as she simply won't take note, learn from, or accept anything you offer. Submitting to the opinions of others simply isn't part of her "wiring".

So thats it is it? That all ya got? Yawn.

And that probably should have said, can read "betterer" than just about everyone else. Sorry about that oversight. smiley16

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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:21/08/2009 9:09 PMCopy HTML

I know that Ian believes it is faulty theology that brought us all here, and Ian is as entitled to his default position as anyone else. I think it goes a lot deeper than that. We all operate in this life on a lot of assumptions, conventional wisdom, social mores and influences. After I left revival I had a lot of time to contemplate what the hell had happened to me, and what part the above played in me ending up where I did.I'm not that interested in the minutiae of life, I want to know what is going on in the bowels of the ship.

When I was booted out of revival, the pastor told me I was under the condemnation of god. Yesterday Ian told me I was under the condemnation of god.

The revival centre came at me armed with their idea of what the bible meant, told me if i did not meet its requirements then I was unacceptable to god. Ian tells me exactly the same thing, but he seems to think that now he has hitched hs cart to "orthodox" christianity that it makes some kind of difference.

The problem is power. We gave our power away to the revivals. We trusted them, believed they cared about us, had our best interests at heart, were decent christian people, had half a clue. But we were wrong. They were experts at using social power. Most groups are. We know how it works. If there is a dissenter we can ignore them in the hope they go away, we can expel them if they cause too much trouble, we can gang up on them and shout them down. Usually what the rest of the group thinks of us is more important than the individual in question.

In every group there are roles and humans seem to slot in and accept that quite nicely. I started to notice it when I was in high school. At the time I didn't have enough education or the social background to understand what I was seeing. What I did note, was that individuals would behave in ways in a group that they would not have individually. I have done a lot of research into group dynamics, and power.

Power is everywhere. We use it over others, they use it over us. The world operates on it. Churches, economics, politics, families - everything operates on it. It is generally accepted, usually without a second thought by everyone. Any group I become part of now, the first thing I notice about it is the dynamics. Who has slipped into the leadership role, why, who the enablers are, why, who are those on the periphery, why and who stands outside the group. It interests me because it is the unspoken basis of  everything else that happens between those individuals. I am always more interested in why things things are happening than what is happening.

I have never really needed group acceptance. I can take it or leave it, usually leave it if it means compromising my core principles to please the group. As such I had a hell of a time in revival because I constantly challenged the pastor on his right to exercise his perverted version of power over others. I am like it everywhere. I can choose to give my power away, or not. My younger years saw me turn my own heart into a drive thru, because I didn't anticipate that others would use power to abuse me, I was too dumb to see that coming. Because I would not do that to anyone, I assumed that no one would do that to me. Thats what comes of having a pure heart turned towards god, with my eyes on him, I never learned to watch my own back or protect my own ass. I am an open book, and I always thought that a good thing, to be completely honest.

I have learned a lot about power over the past 20 years. A time of crisis in my life saw long time friends betray me so they could be more acceptable to the group. Looking back now, everything would have been so much easier if I had lied through my teeth. But it never occurred to me to do so. I don't know much about certain types of human nature. I don't have a core of dishonesty, I don't feel the need to have power over others and struggle to understand why other people do, particularly christians. Seems to me the complete opposite of who Jesus was. He didn't need to prove anything to anyone, why should we?

I generally get on very well with people because I have a caring heart. The only time I lose the plot is when someone comes along and tries to lord it over me, for any reason. I am very placid until provoked, and boy have I been provoked in recent times.The only people that don't like me are the ones who think I should not question the status quo, and I should accept their "authority" without question, and bend to their superior knowledge.  I have endured, with god's grace, a lifetime of abuse by those who should have known better, but I still stand with him as my rock. I am not going to allow anyone else's sick need for power to corrupt my love for my god.


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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:22/08/2009 12:29 AMCopy HTML

Galien,

 

Problem is, I see you have built a brick wall around yourself too early. More time is needed for you to seek out the positive things in life and God’s Word.

 

Best wishes.

 

Ralph.

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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:22/08/2009 3:20 AMCopy HTML

I just had the most bizarre experience. I was driving along with my ex hubby past the old revival hall. All that remains is a hole in the ground where it used to be. I didn't know they were knocking that building down. We both drew in a sharp breath, and parked the car and stared. The building was just a building and it was the people in it who did the damage. Even after revival moved out, I still felt a chill every time I drove past it. I'm glad it has gone.

It was a nice counter balance to the churchy type nightmare I had in the early hours of this morning.
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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:22/08/2009 3:39 AMCopy HTML

Galien,

You would do well to actually consider why it is that I've stated that your choices have placed you under the ban of God,

The ban of God? That's a new one. Bit of Ian MSU?

Ian I have no trouble accepting the word of god, submitting to it and bowing the knee. I would love to see the whole world bow the knee to Jesus simultaneously. What a sight that would be. I bow the knee to no man, and why would I? I sure as hell would not be comfortable with anyone bowing the knee to me, that is just creepy. Given that I believe everyone is equal, it is not something that even has any meaning for me outside the fact I feel people who want others to bend the knee to them are not mentally healthy.

My issue with you Ian is that you believe you have some kind of spiritual authority. I think your claim is complete crap.

You throw your spiritual "authority" around on this site like there is no tommorrow. The problem is I think everyone on this planet who believes they have some kind of spiritual authority over others is full of shit. Now, you can call me what ever you like, mock me, call me a liar, show me you know every single bit of the scripture down to the last phoneme. People like you are a dime a dozen. Give them a bit of power and they go absolutely apeshit with it. Think revival houseleaders.

You are not an APOSTLE Ian, you are no better or worse than any of the rest of us. Your problem is that in your own mind you NEED to be for some reason. How long did the ruling classes of the western world twist and turn the scriptures to manipulate people to accept class systems that were to the detriment of the poor and the advantage of the rich? You really think you are any different?

You tell me that its not all about me. Not on this site mate, its all about you. How clever you are, how god has given you a gift, how you know the bible, what a wonderful teacher you are, how many people you have helped, blah blah. Well good, it is no more than any of us should be doing as christians who love our saviour and love others. Doesn't make you special sunshine.

I will NEVER bow the knee to you Ian. The tragedy of it is that you have the hide to think I should in the first place, and that you use the word of god to try and justify what you believe is your natural and spiritual superiority over the rest of us. You should be ashamed of yourself.
 


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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:22/08/2009 11:52 AMCopy HTML

Reply to FREMDE

p.s. A training video for you to watch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYZM__VdEjk&feature=related

I only just got to watch this this avo, can't view streamng video at my place of employment. OOH OOH OHH I LOVE G&S!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Watched heaps on youtube. Thanks

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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:22/08/2009 12:01 PMCopy HTML

Galien,

Again, interesting rant.

Point one: the fact that you don't understand what is meant by the term, "the ban of God", indicates your current low level of biblical literacy.

Ooh, you say you know something I don't know. Oh Ian you're the master. Seeing the whole concept is hogwash anyway, who cares?

Point two: I don't claim any personal spiritual authority over anyone, and never have. In case you hadn't noticed, the only authorities that I have been referring and pointing you to, over-and-over, are Jesus Christ and Scripture. As for me, well, I'm not an apostle, nor am I a pastor. I'm naught but a theologically educated Christian layman, one who has been recognised as a teacher within the Christian Church (the only "office" that I've been prepared to accept therein). Consequently, I direct people to biblical teaching, and I rebut false teaching that purports to being biblical. What the people choose to do with such information is left to them.

What you do claim is that the "orthodox church" (whoever that is meant to be)_ has inherited some kind of authority to stick their nose into the spiritual relationships of others. Do you also get to decide who is in and who is out of the orthodox church. Is there an application form, and a board of directors who can say who
is in and who is out. Do the catholics include your church in that, or are they also part of the ban of god?

Point three
: and building on from the previous point, none of this is about me. Now I've no doubt that you will continue to reject this assertion; however, perhaps you might at some stage stop to reflect on the fact that quite a few other people have tried to reason with you, of late. Are they all my "disciples" do you think?

People with a heart can see what this crap does to me, tossers like you are blind to it. There are some very kind and caring people here. I always listen to kind and caring people and dismiss controlling heartless ones who think they know everything.

 Point four: I've not at any time said that you had to bow the knee to me. I have said that you need to bow the knee to Christ though. Somehow, I just can't see that happening any time soon.

So who exactly IS it, in human form, that I am suppsed to be bowing the knee to again?

Your entire postulation that christianity is corporate rather than individual is a joke Ian.
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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:22/08/2009 2:25 PMCopy HTML

Galien,

With every response that you type, you simply reinforce my assessments concerning your biblical ignorance, and your wholly misplaced arrogance.

Your choice, though.

Ian


Ian,

Ditto. Works both ways baby.

Your choice though

Galien
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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:23/08/2009 4:05 AMCopy HTML

Galien,

I must thank you. Way back when, I never thought I'd see the day when I defended Ian. Your malicious slander of things you suppose about him, is almost God given to me, to see where I have come from and where I must go.

Even in the midst of my most vehement debates with Ian, I knew, for he had almost protested that he did not want to be, or considered himself, to be a pastor or an apostle, for they were not his callings. Nevertheless you proffer that he has. You are plain, consarn, ordinary wrong. You use the arguments of a loser by maligning character. There is no Godliness, charity or decency in that. On what basis do I discern such? Such was I.

In my "better" moments I listened to the "still small voice" and I backed down and apologised. In retrospect, not enough or soon enough. However, what ever else you may think of Ian, he very, very, very forgiving. Please O God my father lead me to that place the more. My thanks that He indeed is.

Ian has been asked to act as a teacher on this forum, by the convener, if you don't like what he has to say, may I suggest that you either shut up or go somewhere else. I did for some time, and then cautiously returned. Was there slings and arrows hurled at me? Nope. Ian in particular acted like nothing had happened. Moth too. Ralph had other battles to fight and said little .... aha.... now was my chance .... I fixed him! I prayed for his troubles. Because that's what we are supposed to do!

I have implored you before, and I will again, back off, pray about it, act like a Christian should and forgive, pass over and let God do the leading instead of you getting way out ahead and suddenly realizing you have no idea why you are where you are.

Your rants are repetitious and unfruitful to what this forum is supposed to be about. You remind me of Zaphod Beeblebrox in the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, when he seized the controls and "Heartofgold" and went every which way. Then it suddenly stopped and went smooth. Ford Prefect (love that name) said "did you find the right controls?", Zaphod answered "no I just stopped fiddling with them".

You are not in control here, I think you'd like to be, but you're not and won't ever be, how about letting go ..... please.

John
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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:23/08/2009 4:51 AMCopy HTML

Fremde,

I must thank you. Way back when, I never thought I'd see the day when I defended Ian. Your malicious slander of things you suppose about him, is almost God given to me, to see where I have come from and where I must go.

Glad I could be of assistance.

Even in the midst of my most vehement debates with Ian, I knew, for he had almost protested that he did not want to be, or considered himself, to be a pastor or an apostle, for they were not his callings. Nevertheless you proffer that he has. You are plain, consarn, ordinary wrong. You use the arguments of a loser by maligning character. There is no Godliness, charity or decency in that. On what basis do I discern such? Such was I.

I understand what you are saying John. Works both ways, Ian is no less a maligner of characters than myself. However in his case it is, well, anyone who disagrees with him. Trust me I don't feel special. Going back through postings over the past couple of years I am disgusted by the way Ian addresses people. I am not the only one. I have had several emails from people thanking me for saying everything they ever wanted to say to Ian but didn't know how.

In case you hadn't noticed John, we have all come out of a destructive cult. The results of that range from mild annoyance to the destruction of one's personality and trust in others. Everyone who has come out of that place deserves to be dealt with WHERE THEY ARE, and allowed to heal at their own pace, whatever that means for them.

What they DON'T need is yet another military based spiritual tank riding roughshod over them in exactly the same way, claiming to have the REAL truth (god help us) to which we must subscribe or once AGAIN find ourselves under the ban of god.


For those of us who have had our lives shattered by revival it is rubbing salt into the wound, and re-injuring people all over again.

Even though I have been warned to be careful of Ian because he is a vicious bastard, I do not believe he would deliberately re-injure people. Some people totally disagree with me. I think that like all of us, he has had a reaction to the shame of being sucked into revival that has sent him hurtling into academia and orthodoxy to find some spiritual safety, and some authentic basis for his faith after the crock he was sold.  Now that is okay, more power to him for dealing with his baggage. He is a person with a strong need for security in what he believes, and that also is his business.

If he wants to teach people, fine too. But ramming stuff down their throats when he hasn't been asked for advice, judging the spiritual relationships of other individuals with god and finding them wanting, telling already seriously damaged individuals that god doesn't find them acceptable, speaking to people like they are morons, the scorn and derision with which he treats others? They are not the hallmarks of the kind of teacher Jesus was.


In my "better" moments I listened to the "still small voice" and I backed down and apologised. In retrospect, not enough or soon enough. However, what ever else you may think of Ian, he very, very, very forgiving. Please O God my father lead me to that place the more. My thanks that He indeed is.

Ian wants people to "back down". That's his issue. I am sure he is forgiving, and so far that is the only christian thing about him I have observed. I am also very forgiving.


I have implored you before, and I will again, back off, pray about it, act like a Christian should and forgive, pass over and let God do the leading instead of you getting way out ahead and suddenly realizing you have no idea why you are where you are.

I know exactly where I am, and how I got here. I have no problem forgiving Ian. I do have a problem with his spiritual bullying which amounts to spiritual abuse and if he cannot see that, I am sorry, but that is what it is.

Your rants are repetitious and unfruitful to what this forum is supposed to be about. You remind me of Zaphod Beeblebrox in the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, when he seized the controls and "Heartofgold" and went every which way. Then it suddenly stopped and went smooth. Ford Prefect (love that name) said "did you find the right controls?", Zaphod answered "no I just stopped fiddling with them".

No more reeptitious or unfruitful than what he has to say.

You are not in control here, I think you'd like to be, but you're not and won't ever be, how about letting go ..... please.

Ah yes, the old control issue again. Like Ian, and most men in your age bracket, you think if it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck, it must be a duck. Like I said yesterday that is what it always seems to come down to for humans, even christians. I don't want to be in control of anything, except maybe my own relationship with God, but according to Ian I am not even entitled to that.

John I had my life not just affected, but torn apart by revivals, and I am not the only one. What one earth would make you, or Ian, or anyone else think that people who have been through that want to be bullied by another Lloyd. Where on earth is your compassion, your understanding of the pain of others?


No one has the right to tell other people how they feel about god, dismiss their experiences with god, insult and hurt already hurt people. It's a disgusting way to treat people and you know very well jesus would never have done it. That is how REVIVALS treat people.

I am here to connect with people who have been hurt like I have been hurt, to share my feelings, my dreams, my faith and the small amount of hope I have left, and perhaps a bit of balance to Ian's overwhelming presence. I also want to hear how other people feel, how their relationships with god work, what are their hopes and dreams, how have they and their families coped. What I don't want or need is to be constantly harrassed by Ian and his bloody opinions, and to be told by ANOTHER man who believes he has the truth that I am trash in God's sight because, once again, I don't measure up. With friends like that, who needs enemies.

The only way we can stop spiritual abuse is to learn how to recognise it in ourselves and others. The only way we can do that is to ask god to show us the complete truth about ourselves and our motives -that and learn how to LISTEN to people when we tell them they are causing us pain. If we have one iota of the spirit of god within us, we have no choice but to listen. If we don't then I guess it won't matter.

BY THIS SHALL ALL MEN KNOW THAT YOU ARE MY DISCIPLES.......................

LEARN FROM ME FOR I AM GENTLE AND HUMBLE IN HEART
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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:23/08/2009 6:11 AMCopy HTML

John,

Thank you for your prayers. It is good to be assured God still has my interest at heart, else He wouldn’t have bothered, hey?

 

Galien

What they DON'T need is yet another military based spiritual tank riding roughshod over them in exactly the same way, claiming to have the REAL truth (god help us) to which we must subscribe or once AGAIN find ourselves under the ban of god.

All that I would like to say is that I never once portrayed Ian as being like this at all. It is your statements such as this, and your profound opinion that would give cause for any to make statements such as Ian’s.

Again my prayers and wishes for you to stop being so negative and look into the positive things. There is so much more to be gained.

 

Ralph

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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:23/08/2009 6:29 AMCopy HTML

Ian,

It appears that you still don't get it. Absolutely everyone else is wrong in their estimations, but you, alone, are correct? How credible do you think that sounds?

Oh I get it alright. It isn't about what everyone else thinks Ian. Just about the only people left here now that you haven't scared the shit out of are the ones that agree with you.
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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:23/08/2009 8:41 AMCopy HTML

Ian,

Clearly you are delusional. Not a single person has "backed you" in your ranting and raving here, even people who won't agree with me on anything else! Listen closely: people with whom I've had arguments aplenty over the years have gone out of their ways to tell you that you're mistaken. So what do you do? You turn on them too!

I haven't turned on anyone. I expressed myself clearly and succinctly.

I'm sorry, but it seems that your grasp on reality is tenuous at best. Get help.

I have great help thank you. The difference between you and I Ian is that I know I need it. Insight into one's limitations (and you do in fact have them) is a glorious thing. Look into it.
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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:23/08/2009 1:13 PMCopy HTML

Just about the only people left here now that you haven't scared the shit out of are the ones that agree with you.
                _________________________________________________________________________________

Sorry to burst your bubble Gali but Ian hasn't & doesn't "scare the ........ out of me".  Sorry, I don't use 'swear' words even mild ones like the above - but I'm sure you get my point?  And Ian & I sure don't agree on many issues, but as adults we can discuss things without hurting each other (well, hopefully)

You know, if you don't like what Ian says, why don't you just ignore him and connect with others on the forum. Why do you continue talking with him? You say that he hurts you/judges you etc, then just STOP talking to him.
Or is it perhaps that you ENJOY the battles?

Urch
Your unfailing love, O Lord, is as vast as the heavens; your faithfulness reaches beyond the clouds. Your righteousness is like the mighty mountains, your justice like the ocean depths.
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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:23/08/2009 3:45 PMCopy HTML

Galien,

Funny how you accuse me of being political a few days ago. You manage to turn a lot of things around to the opposite of what is stated. "Trust me" you say? Are you standing for parliament as "GALIEN 2010" ?

Ian didn't make back down, nor scare me, the Holy Spirit convicting me did.

You have a penchant for getting personal, with Ian, it's his army rank, his running over people with a spiritual tank (I have a feeling he is not in the Armoured Corps) and his age. With me it's my age and my desire to rule the world (no that's was another guy of German descent, Austrian actually) etc.

For the record I think Ian is younger than you and he is certainly near enough to twenty years younger than me, but don't let that hold you back from misconstruing things or letting facts get in the way of your paranoia.

Yeah you had it worse in Revival than me....wanna bet? The sub-sect I fellowshipped with, it was said, made your lot look like a Sunday School picnic, and as for your "poor hard done by me and my siblings", my wife's childhood would put you to shame, especially because she has risen above it and doesn't complain, she's gotten on with life and made something of herself.

I own and run a company of between 45 and 70 staff (we hire extra casuals when needed) of about 15 different nationalities. Try juggling different ages, sexes and nationalities and being expected to be benefactor when they are in financial distress, deal with racial and sexist issues between them and compassion when they are in ill health or injury, then you can tell me I am out of touch, or behind the times, you assume a lot without an ounce (gram perhaps?) of discernment. As to the world now expecting to earn respect, you have that topsy turvy, many parents and schools unfortunately teach rights without responsibility. Discipline has fallen by the wayside. There's an "unfair dismissal tribunal", but no "unfair treatment of the employer tribunal". And before you give me some socialist liberal diatribe about "rights", let me inform you that my father, among other things was a communist, and it was the Socialist Left of the Labor Party that asked me to stand for parliament.

You espouse brotherhood of man, but more passionately sisterhood of women, and the downtrodden, but it always shifts to your wailing "woe is me, I've had it tough". My grandfather used to say "I complained I had no shoes, till I met a man that had no feet". Quit your bellyaching and depending on worldly counsellors and if you really do believe, humble yourself, repent and obey and trust the Lord God Almighty, instead of running your own race and wallowing in your own sorrow.

My wife and I have learned how to abase and abound and praise God for the experience. To quote a good old Aussie saying "we wouldn't be dead for quids!" My Father and God has sure given me an interesting life!

For a person who says she is forgiving and wants things to be right, you sure hide it well. It almost seems you actually enjoy misery.

John

p.s. Rocky is booked in for a thorough check up Tuesday, I'll let you know how he is doing and thanks for your concern for him. Perhaps they will give him a cat scan and find out that he is too dogmatic.

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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:23/08/2009 9:50 PMCopy HTML

Galien lost any support from me with her sexist comments. I work with some feminazis and they make the control freaks in revival look like pussies. I think her problem with submission goes further than not wanting to be under it, but rather exercise power. To generalise about any group of people regarding their age, gender etc. is bad news. If my memory serves me correctly her first posts were sticking up for homosexuals., now she is bagging men. I have had some absolutely shocking treatment from my first wife that would shock anybody, including extreme violence. I lost a lot of money that was my inheritence from my parents who commited suicide when I was quite young. Have experienced and observed incredible acts of evil from women. BUT I would never generalise about women. To make judgements about people because of their gender or age for that matter is very narrow minded. I think poor old Galien has traded one type of brain washing for another.
¡uıɐƃɐ ʎɐqǝ ɯoɹɟ pɹɐoqʎǝʞ ɐ ƃuıʎnq ɹǝʌǝu
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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:24/08/2009 12:39 AMCopy HTML

Ian,

Not a single person has "backed you" in your ranting and raving here, even people who won't agree with me on anything else!

Hey watch it! I resemble that remark! There were a few things we agreed on, like officers saluting women and ..... and ..... and ..... there must have been something else!

Well I do now, so don't be so huffy! Heh heh heh.

Blessings already!

John
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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:24/08/2009 2:01 AMCopy HTML

Galien lost any support from me with her sexist comments. I work with some feminazis and they make the control freaks in revival look like pussies. I think her problem with submission goes further than not wanting to be under it, but rather exercise power.

You could not be more wrong prezy. I can't stand people who abuse power. I gave up my need for power over others a long time ago. My issue here has been with the resident sociopath, no one else.

 I have had some absolutely shocking treatment from my first wife that would shock anybody, including extreme violence. I lost a lot of money that was my inheritence from my parents who commited suicide when I was quite young. Have experienced and observed incredible acts of evil from women. BUT I would never generalise about women. To make judgements about people because of their gender or age for that matter is very narrow minded. I think poor old Galien has traded one type of brain washing for another.

Sorry to hear that prezy. I would never advocate violence against anyone for any reason. Coming from an extremely violent family of origin I abhor violence of any kind, or anyone who tries to intimidate others with violence, be that physical, spiritual or verbal.
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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:24/08/2009 2:16 AMCopy HTML

Didaktikon: Galien. If I WAS malicious, ask yourself how long do you think it would take me to completely "gut" and/or "shred" you here? Ian
23 Aug 09, 18:26
Didaktikon: Galien. Have you ever considered the possibility? Ian
23 Aug 09, 18:26
galien: go for it, seeing you seem to think acting that way is a perfectly godly way to behave. do you really think i havent heard it all before ian.
23 Aug 09, 18:27
Didaktikon: Galien. That if I wanted to, I could completely "cripple" you, emotionally, spiritually, psychologically? Ian
23 Aug 09, 18:27
galien: hehe. been done
23 Aug 09, 18:27
galien: proud of those talents ian?
23 Aug 09, 18:27
Didaktikon: Galien. It was a hypothetical question. Ian
23 Aug 09, 18:28
galien: or are you on your knees, daily begging god to take that viciousness out of your soul
23 Aug 09, 18:28
galien: no it wasnt ian
23 Aug 09, 18:28
Didaktikon: Galien. If I WERE malicious, you'd be a "puddle" on the floor about now. Ian
23 Aug 09, 18:28
Didaktikon: Galien. But you're not, are you? Ian
23 Aug 09, 18:28
galien: oh clever you. you know how to hurt people. and how does that endorse you as a teacher of the world of god again?
23 Aug 09, 18:29
Didaktikon: Galien. Ask yourself why you're not that "puddle". Ian
23 Aug 09, 18:29
galien: i am that puddle you silly man


So this is the what a degree in theology gets you. Nice.
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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:24/08/2009 2:26 AMCopy HTML

Galien,

You really do struggle with context and comprehension, don't you? You left out this bit:

Didaktikon: Galien. Ask yourself why you're not that "puddle". Ian
23 Aug 09, 18:29
galien: i am that puddle you silly man
23 Aug 09, 18:30
Didaktikon: Galien. But not due to me. Ian     <------------------ Note this statement.
23 Aug 09, 18:30
galien: no             <-------------------- Note this admission.
23 Aug 09, 18:30
Didaktikon: Galien. So am I malicious? Ian
23 Aug 09, 18:30
galien: but ian i understand u better than you think
23 Aug 09, 18:30
Didaktikon: Galien. I doubt it. You see, you simply don't listen. Ian
23 Aug 09, 18:31
galien: malicious? im not sure, but then i am so naive ian anything could be possible. i think that like me you have certain talents which do not bring glory to god and even though you know that, your natural man is often tempted to indulge them
Didaktikon: Galien. Mistaken. Completely. Ian
23 Aug 09, 18:31
galien: well your behaviour suggests otherwise
23 Aug 09, 18:32
Didaktikon: Galien. Apparently not. At least, not according to everyone except you. Oh, and BG for what her opinion is worth :lol: Ian

Don't let the facts stand in the way of a spitefully motivated, personal attack, eh?

Ian

email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:24/08/2009 2:31 AMCopy HTML

Reply to Galien:
If I am wrong I am glad. I just see man bashing as somehow being descrimination that is in vogue at the moment without the offenders realizing the damage it can cause both sexes. In my work environment which is a disability service for disabled adults the offensive comments against males are a daily occurance. As if a disabled man isn't marginalised enough without being told day in day out how he belongs to an inferior sex. I also have a young disabled child and at school the boys are as caring for him as the girls. Even men in the age group you identified have shown him tremendous love. Good, and bad are present in both genders in all age groups.
¡uıɐƃɐ ʎɐqǝ ɯoɹɟ pɹɐoqʎǝʞ ɐ ƃuıʎnq ɹǝʌǝu
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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:24/08/2009 4:13 AMCopy HTML



Didaktikon
: Galien. That if I wanted to, I could completely "cripple" you, emotionally, spiritually, psychologically? Ian

A person who truly loved God could not even conceive of such an evil thing,  much less be capable of it. The whole concept both repels and disgusts me. If this is acceptable to anyone at all here, then I am definitely in the wrong place
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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:24/08/2009 4:33 AMCopy HTML

To Galien,The fruits are there to be seen,the sight is full of wolves.NO LOVE just attack attack attack.
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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:24/08/2009 12:46 PMCopy HTML

Greg,

I'd suggest that you, "Luke" and Galien get together. You have much in common

We do Ian. We all see straight through you.
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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:27/08/2009 10:45 PMCopy HTML

Chatting with Ian has been interesting. It has helped me to reiterate in my own mind why I never want to be a part of any group again that requires control over my thinking. I have grown out of the coercive techniques of others, patricularly those who want to use the word of god to gain said control.  Twice was more than enough.

I have been thinking about exactly what it is that irks me so about social groups, particularly christian ones. This belief that rebuking of others is an obligation can easily turn into an occasion to sin in and of itself. That sense of being the one "in the right" easily turns into pride and the sense that it is okay to treat the other person harshly because they have made a mistake seems to permeate christianity. Christ tells us to continue to forgive. My experience of christian control usually consists of christians being so harsh on a person they are terrified to slip up again, lest they lose the acceptance of the group. Many more times that I have needed to I have seen the disgust on the faces of christians for those who are not perfect. My suggestion is at those times, go look in a mirror. Have a good look into your own soul and ask yourself what on earth is going on in there to make you someone with the right to judge? Is it okay because you have seen senior christians do it? ITS NEVER ALRIGHT. The whole use of the in group, out group is incredibly primary school.
 
Every one knows how powerful peer pressure is, but surely in an adult, self regulation is the goal. Surely we are meant to learn inside us what is right and what is wrong without needing others to tell us. Or do we remain spiritual children for ever, relying on others to kick our butts instead of learning to kick our own?

I do what is right because I want to, not because I need to, or have to,or should? How about you? 

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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:28/08/2009 12:26 AMCopy HTML

Ian,

Well for my part chatting with you has reinforced in my mind that your basic problem is rebellion: you simply point-blank refuse to subordinate yourself to anyone or anything.

Actually Ian I am subrodinate to many things, the least of which are the laws of my country.

But as for your quip about self-regulation of one's behaviour being the key, I'd like to point out two things. First, such apparently hasn't worked with you. It seems that you've lacked the personal capacity to regulate your own behaviour adequately at key points during your adult life.

I often tell people when I meet them the worst things about me, because their reaction usually tells me a lot about them. Just because you know a couple of negative things, does not mean you know anything about the thousands of times I have been capable of self-regulation.

Go figure. Second, human beings were created for community. Life in community requires a degree of personal surrender and corporate regulation. But you refuse either.

Well if the god we love and serve saw fit to protect us from those who do not have our best interests at heart, then community would probably be a whole lot easier. I think we would all agree that as our culture becomes more and more of a victim to the look after number one philosophy, it becomes more and more difficult to find people who don't subscribe to that. As he doesn't I tend to be more vigilant these days before I surrender myself to those for whom the organisation is more important than the indivduals in it.

I am heartily tired of those for whom the mantra seems to be "how can I turn this situation to my advantage, and how can I protect my own backside?" Perhaps I am just getting old and even more intolerant of self interested individuals, but particularly those in churches. The church is there to serve god and each other. To serve each other you need to have humility and empathy, two things I find increasingly absent in church leaders. As I have said before, you want to tell me how to live, you better be better than I am at both those things.

Finally, the Christian Church doesn't seek to "control" you anywhere near the level that you refuse to be "controlled". You've simply created a "boogey-man" of your own devising, and then for no other reason than to justify your actions and attitudes.

Well you can think what you want Ian, you will anyway. At SOME point the church will have to take some responsibility for the way it treats people. The people can't ALWAYS be rebellious naysayers, and church cannot ALWAYS be right.
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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:28/08/2009 12:45 AMCopy HTML

Ian,

So now it's God's fault, huh?

Perhaps at some point you maybe able to come to a realisation that not every situation is about who is at fault. Not everyone is busy running around looking for someone to point the finger at. Sometimes, it just is what it is. Either one chooses to protect oneself from harm, or one doesn't. Sensitive people like myself need to be protected from emotional harm. If it is not the concern of others, then it needs to be my concern. The one size fits all attitude of church does not work for everyone, and is not safe for everyone.

Most churches choose to point the finger at those who "don't fit in" for whatever reason. The collateral emotional damage that churches cause is of no concern to them. In fact, they don't even believe it exists. So much for owning the truth. Any organisation that cannot honestly question itself, or allow itself to be questioned has issues.

Ever seen Pleasantville Ian? It's worth a viewing. Several in fact.

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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:28/08/2009 12:58 AMCopy HTML

Galien,

I have encountered bullying and negative leadership from relatives, at school, in the army, in the church (if one can really describe Revivalism as church), in both being employed and being an employer (bullying and group negativity doesn't always go down it can quite easily go up), and yet to reject authority, chastening, rebuke, judgement, discipline and punishment, because of bad experiences, is not just like throwing out the baby with the bathwater, but going further to rip the plumbing out of the wall and poisoning the water supply.

It' a matter of weighing up the good versus the bad, or to quote (before my time I must stress!) an old Bing Crosby and Andrews Sisters song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cgVRwITAfY

You've got to accentuate the positive
Eliminate the negative
Latch on to the affirmative
Don't mess with Mr In-between!

You've got to spread joy to the maximum
Bring gloom down to the minimum
Have faith or pandemonium's
Liable to walk up on the scene

I reckon you'd do well to play this song many times, learn the words and sing it often.

It took me a long, long, long time to get it into my thick head that by letting hurts regurgitate I was reliving injustices over and over again. Whereas if I rebuked them when they arose like King David did in the Psalms and stomped on them like in Psalm 23 (the quintessential turning negativity into positivity), the Holy Spirit helped me overcome.

Is it a magic wand approach? No. When Jesus resisted Satan in the temptation in the wilderness, the scripture says that Satan departed.......for a season.

Just when I thought I had negativity beaten, I came upon the forum and had my resolve shaken, mostly by Ian. I was as negative as you. I thought I had learned self control and confidence, but was very mistaken. Why was this so? Because I had everything nicely packaged as to why I could isolate myself and still be a Christian. Which of course is very contrary to God's way and teaching.

I will tell you a few thing in the main I did and still do, differently to you. Prayed to God for His way to be revealed to others and me, without the assumption that my way was right. Of course one wouldn't have thought such, reading my posts! Also, as I am doing now, I was prepared to back down, repent and apologise when I was wrong. Our Father loves repentance and a contrite heart.

One of my favourite poems is Rudyard Kipling's "Recessional" http://www.web-books.com/Classics/Poetry/Anthology/Kipling/Recessional.htm  and the lines "still stands thine ancient sacrifice, an humble and a contrite heart"

The poem is not about "Lest we forget the dead" as it has been construed, but the futility of empire and arrogance.

I really thought you were listening in the chat box and rejoiced....then you post here that you are as obstinate as ever. I hope it's bluff and bluster and you will in time change. Christianity is risk taking. Satan is not playing. He wants to isolate us and despise one another, and he does it by hurt and playing with our feelings and setting us at variance with one another. We can fall into the trap by rejecting everything we don't like and excuse our behavior because of past hurts. In Christ we can overcome the "feelings" for the bigger picture of care for one another putting those things behind, just as Jesus did.

I exhort you yet again to pray and in particular about bring your mind and heart in subjection to what God wants, not what you want.

In the love of Christ,

John
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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:28/08/2009 1:21 AMCopy HTML

Galien,

 

I do what is right because I want to, not because I need to, or have to, or should? How about you?

 

I’m sorry, but I have to say your negativity is so depressing I don’t believe you’re contribution to the objective of this forum is of any value at all. All I am asking is to quit seeing yourself as somebody any different to any one else. Well, you are NOT. We all have our weaknesses but all of us are not self centered and full of self pity. You claim that you do right and put others before yourself because you want to and this maybe so, but have you thought the motive maybe pride and self righteousness within yourself?

 

I think I do right because I don’t try to be right, but by God’s grace and mercy I do that which is right and the compassion and empathy just happens as I see in the Word of God his will for us all.

 

“Be still and know that I am God”

 

Ralph.

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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:28/08/2009 1:42 AMCopy HTML

John,

I have encountered bullying and negative leadership from relatives, at school, in the army, in the church (if one can really describe Revivalism as church), in both being employed and being an employer (bullying and group negativity doesn't always go down it can quite easily go up),

Agreed. Human beings are so lovely. I used to work in a print shop. The man who owned it was the person who first introduced me to Revival actually. He really did mistake the employer/employee relationship as feudal lord and serf. Of course you can imagine how well I took that. He was silly enough to disallow me lunch due to a  deadline on a day when I had severe period pain. It kind of culminated in me threatening him with a scalpel and telling him to stick his job. He really had no idea that being a christian actually meant he had to treat others with respect. The person he was at work, and the one he was on a sunday were two completely different people. Later it emerged that the people who worked there hated him so much they were planning to get someone to come in and force him out of his business using deception. I found this out and arranged lunch with him to let him know what was going on. I find people so dishonest, and so manipulative. Bullying can and does work both ways.

 and yet to reject authority, chastening, rebuke, judgement, discipline and punishment, because of bad experiences, is not just like throwing out the baby with the bathwater, but going further to rip the plumbing out of the wall and poisoning the water supply.

Well I guess John if I don't think the authority is legitimate, I am probably not going to want much to do with it. Coupled with the fact I find some people's enjoyment of authority, even in a church setting, quite pathological, I am probably going to avoid it.

It' a matter of weighing up the good versus the bad, or to quote (before my time I must stress!) an old Bing Crosby and Andrews Sisters song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cgVRwITAfY

You've got to accentuate the positive
Eliminate the negative
Latch on to the affirmative
Don't mess with Mr In-between!

You've got to spread joy to the maximum
Bring gloom down to the minimum
Have faith or pandemonium's
Liable to walk up on the scene


I reckon you'd do well to play this song many times, learn the words and sing it often.

No thanks. Look at the world, really look at it. It's all very well for us to be "positive" in our insulated middle class western world. Think of that man in Kenya, scrabbling for food on a garbage heap, the one Ian told me that for purposes of comparison is not as "equal" as he is. You wanna teach him to sing that song? If you elminate negative (not possible) and only have positive, where is the balance in that?

It took me a long, long, long time to get it into my thick head that by letting hurts regurgitate I was reliving injustices over and over again. Whereas if I rebuked them when they arose like King David did in the Psalms and stomped on them like in Psalm 23 (the quintessential turning negativity into positivity), the Holy Spirit helped me overcome.

This is not about past hurts John, its about preventing future ones.

Just when I thought I had negativity beaten, I came upon the forum and had my resolve shaken, mostly by Ian. I was as negative as you. I thought I had learned self control and confidence, but was very mistaken. Why was this so? Because I had everything nicely packaged as to why I could isolate myself and still be a Christian. Which of course is very contrary to God's way and teaching.

I don't think I am negative John, just a realist. Oh the adventures I have had on another email list with the Yanks. These are people dedicated to pretending there is nothing wrong. They are so afraid of facing reality they have made a new religion out of it. Apparently there is a Law of Attraction. If you allow anyone else's negative energy around you, you will attract negativity into your life, and bad things will happen. Apparently it works in reverse for positivity. Personally I wish people would grow up and learn to accept both the good and bad in life, and stop pretending to themselves we have some kind of control over that.

And as for isolation John, the reality is we are all alone. We come into this world alone, and we leave alone. I have always been alone. I had violent punitive parents who were more interested in their substance abuse and mental illness than in my wellbeing. I learned how to be alone early. I have the courage to face the world alone, most people do not. The times I have risked joining groups have resulted in misery for me. I am not like most people John, I have extremely high levels of empathy and when I love others, I love them like family. That was how I loved the 100 or so people in my assembly. My devastation at discovering that for 90% of them, I meant nothing, was the most alone I have ever felt in my life.

The truth is most people care on a deep level for their family and closest friends. I feel that depth of love for everyone because that is who I am.


I will tell you a few thing in the main I did and still do, differently to you. Prayed to God for His way to be revealed to others and me, without the assumption that my way was right. Of course one wouldn't have thought such, reading my posts! Also, as I am doing now, I was prepared to back down, repent and apologise when I was wrong. Our Father loves repentance and a contrite heart.

I don't have a WAY I assume is right. I do apologise when I am wrong, but that is the problem with things spiritual isn't it. No one owns the "right way" although many, many think they do. I cannot even understand why having a "right way" is so important to people.

One of my favourite poems is Rudyard Kipling's "Recessional" http://www.web-books.com/Classics/Poetry/Anthology/Kipling/Recessional.htm  and the lines "still stands thine ancient sacrifice, an humble and a contrite heart"

The poem is not about "Lest we forget the dead" as it has been construed, but the futility of empire and arrogance.

Nothing wrong with a humble or a contrite heart. I just don't find them often in church, and I NEVER find them in relation to those who have treated me badly.

I really thought you were listening in the chat box and rejoiced....then you post here that you are as obstinate as ever. I hope it's bluff and bluster and you will in time change. Christianity is risk taking. Satan is not playing. He wants to isolate us and despise one another, and he does it by hurt and playing with our feelings and setting us at variance with one another. We can fall into the trap by rejecting everything we don't like and excuse our behavior because of past hurts. In Christ we can overcome the "feelings" for the bigger picture of care for one another putting those things behind, just as Jesus did.

I always listen John, always. It's not me being obstinate. I have spent over 20 years of my life in therapy finding out who I am and how I operate. I am an outlier in just about every area, eccentric, humble, truthful and brave, as well as damaged and defensive. Any time I present at a church I am going to be so pissed off at the pointless heirarchy structure I am going to want to argue the point about the very need for it. How does that benefit me or any church I go to? I have kind of grown out of the need for a lot of things that others find necessary in life.

I don't like the way people treat each other John, and the older I get the more I dislike it. I have no need to judge others, to place them in a pecking order in my own mind. Everyone is equal. I have rejected this nasty world's idea of a lot of things. I have no need to rejoice in the sin of another because it makes me feel like I am better than they are, and please don't tell me that is not what christians do. I have been watching it for most of my life.

We are ALL sinners, ALL judged unworthy.

I thank you John for your kind and genuine concern for my soul. Just writing this has brought a tear to my eye.

Tracey
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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:28/08/2009 2:08 AMCopy HTML

Seg,

 

I’m sorry, but I have to say your negativity is so depressing I don’t believe you’re contribution to the objective of this forum is of any value at all. 

Guess Ishould just go then seeing my presence here has no value. I hope for your sake that one day you learn to accept life warts and all.

I think I do right because I don’t try to be right, but by God’s grace and mercy I do that which is right and the compassion and empathy just happens as I see in the Word of God his will for us all.

 

Nothing to disagree with there. I am exactly the same, I just don't need to say it in a way which pleases the ears of others. God can read my heart, I have nothing to prove to anyone else.

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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:28/08/2009 2:19 AMCopy HTML

Galien

How's this approach to life working for you? If it's not negative, I don't know what is. Tracey, take a step back and re-read your posts. We get it - you're humble and brave and abused and you have extremely high levels of empathy for others and you are not like most people and ..........sorry, I dozed off there.

Will the real Tracey stand up? I'd like to know her - I'm sure she's worth knowing. Maybe she's less argumentative and able to be taught.

Chips


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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:28/08/2009 2:55 AMCopy HTML

Hi chips,

How's this approach to life working for you? 

Rather well actually.

If it's not negative, I don't know what is.

Then you don't know what it is, only what you THINK it is.

Tracey, take a step back and re-read your posts. We get it - you're humble and brave and abused and you have extremely high levels of empathy for others and you are not like most people and ..........sorry, I dozed off there.

Sorry to have bored you.

Will the real Tracey stand up? I'd like to know her - I'm sure she's worth knowing. Maybe she's less argumentative and able to be taught.

This is the real me, but apparently I am only worth knowing if I moo like all the other cows in the paddock. Mooing any other way usually gets one uninvited from the paddock. All I want chips is to be accepted for who I am, and be allowed to have my own opinions. But clearly that isn't going to happen.


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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:28/08/2009 3:12 AMCopy HTML

Galien,

I'm not in anyway suggesting you leave here, I would you look more on the bright side of things. Be more positive in your approach to things that are dished out from the Word and others.

Ralph
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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:28/08/2009 3:48 AMCopy HTML

Ian

When your opinions are wrong, don't be surprised that people will point this out to you.

Opinions aren't right or wrong, they just are.

After all, you're not entitled to hold beliefs that are cr*p. Furthermore, and to use your analogy, if it's a "goat" suffering an identity crisis, and so thinks it's a "cow", then all the "bleating" in the world will not equal a "moo". Ever.

Why not, some of yours are. That's hilarious, people are not allowed to  hold beliefs that are crap? Well that wipes out most of the world then doesnt it? People are in fact entitled to opinions Ian. In church, they are entitled to your opinion, which you believe to be A. a fact and B. backed up by the word of god. Sorry but I am not interested in becoming a clone who only knows how to parrot your opinions.

I don't WANT to moo Ian, if it is someone else's moo, so the other cows will accept me.
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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:28/08/2009 10:43 PMCopy HTML

Ian

I think you'll find that any statement that makes claims to being factual, whether an "opinion" or otherwise, is routinely tested in order to determine its merit. I expect such to be the case with my statements and opinions; you should certainly expect that the same "democratic" process be applied to yours. I suggest that I've established the error of your views; and that you've altogether failed to do likewise with mine. But that's simply a widely held opinion, isn't it?

Ian, all your opinions show me is that you have a lot of head knowledge, but very little knowledge of the human heart. In fact, you seem to spend a lot of time not only poo-pooing what people think and feel, but encouraging others to do the same. Seems like all you have learned since leaving revival is theology, but very little else.

Now if you don't like the interactions that take place here; if you feel you're "misunderstood", then please feel free to leave. Just try not to "slam" the door on your way out, this time.

Ah yes, and there it is. The old disposable neighbour routine. Not quite on the level of laying down one's life is it?

We are people Ian,not used takeaway containers,  and just because our human nature and our society, and yes, even our churches say it is okay to dispose of each other if we have different beliefs, differing opinions or are just plain ornery in the sight of others, that doesn't make it okay.

It is EXACTLY that attitude that keeps me out of church, the one where I know I am disposable. Breaks my heart to know that christians still think its okay to treat others this way.

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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:28/08/2009 11:45 PMCopy HTML

Galien,

May I ask, have you honestly attended or been involved in any "tradional" churches for a reasonable time after Revival?
I myself have been to several and I don't seem to find that the people or churches are what you claim to be. Just the opposite.
If it is not the case then do you think you should be making unfounded judgements based on your past experiences? (Excluding what you perceive Ian to be)


Ralph.



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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:29/08/2009 12:06 AMCopy HTML

Hi Ralph,


May I ask, have you honestly attended or been involved in any "tradional" churches for a reasonable time after Revival?
I myself have been to several and I don't seem to find that the people or churches are what you claim to be. Just the opposite.
If it is not the case then do you think you should be making unfounded judgements based on your past experiences? (Excluding what you perceive Ian to be)

No I haven't. But I really don't need to. Look I know people are different everywhere, and it is probably just the pettiness of pathetic human nature I hate. It just kills me to see it in christians ralph. Maybe I just expect too much, but I expect no more of others than I expect from myself first.

I know a lot of disenfranchised christians, from all denominations. The horror stories never end, and you cannot tell me it is always the fault of the people and never the fault of the churches. The anglican church in particular is an interesting one. The problem for me lies in the hierarchy structure that has no time for the actual people or the actual circumstances. Once the "organisation" becomes more important than the people in it, something is wrong.


My opinion, useless and pointless as it seem to be on this forum, is that christians should be able to do a bit better than the average soccer club, but they can't seem to see past the usual human way of doing things. I believe that Jesus showed us a better way. Unfortunately Ralph it isn't a way that panders to our ego, or increases our status. But, being human we will try and turn it into that. We will try and turn it into just another club where the know alls rise to the top and feed crumbs to the lesser mortals at the bottom, then get rid of the lesser mortals if they don't pass muster. I'm just kind of tired of it, and I am not the only one believe me. I know more than one enlightened ex clergy from different denominations who have left the church for exactly the same reasons.
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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:29/08/2009 12:39 AMCopy HTML

Actually Ralph, I will try and explain it another way.

I have a 27 year old daughter who is a teacher in South Korea. She has met a muslim gentleman with whom she seems quite taken, and is talking marriage. That of course would require her to convert to islam.

Now, I can take two paths with this. I can tell her why islam is wrong, react in fear and tell her she is making a stupid decision, undermine her character, thump the bible and have a lovely time in my own self righteousness, pride and arrogance, because I have the word of god on my side, therefore I am right and it gives me permission to harm our relationship by rebuking her, which apparently I am "obligated" to do.

On the other hand I could express my concerns, allow her to be grown up that she is, respect her decisions and not harm our relationship.

Belonging to a church encourages me to behave in the first manner I described, and I am ashamed of myself when I am that person. Jesus is my role model, and as far as I can see he never behaved like an irrational nut job when it came to passing on the word of god to others. He said what he needed to say, then left it with them. He was always the gentleman, even as he died for me. The only people he wasnt gentlemanly to were the ones who cared about ramming the truth down the throats of others. Now what am I to make of that Ralph?
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Re:The church of the poisoned mind

Date Posted:29/08/2009 1:58 AMCopy HTML

Galien,

I know you don't like Paul (whew! that writes off a big chunk of the New Testament), and you think God is not doing the right thing (well that just about wraps it up for God) and you don't like Ian because he represents authority and judgement (I know you consider those words offensive), but how about John the Baptist or Jesus?

When the multitude came to be baptised by John he said "You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?" (Luke 3:7). Male authority? Too much testosterone?

When the woman who's daughter was possessed by a demon beseeched Jesus, first he ignored her and then he told her "It is not right to take the children's bread and throw it to dogs" (Matthew 15:26 ESV) Racial, sexist and religious bias?

Jesus didn't pussyfoot with his disciples, rebuking them for their stupidity or lack of discernment on many occasions, he didn't get all kissy and softly ask the sellers of doves or the money changers at the temple, would they please desist, but He made a scourge, threw over their tables and drove them from the temple rebuking them. (Matthew 21:12 & 13) Too authoritarian? Not empathetic enough?

Or more pointedly, Jesus said, something that you (and me) ought take on board and do"Why do you call me 'Lord, Lord' and not do what I tell you?" (Luke 6:46 ESV) Unless you are prepared to do what Jesus said don't state that He is your role model, otherwise it is just egotistic lip service.

Jesus also said something we both have to heed, or ignore at our own peril "But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates 'We played the flute for you and you did not dance, we sang a dirge and you did not mourn'". (Matthew 11:17)

Why play at worshipping or believing? If one does not like what God or Jesus have done or are doing, and deem that They are not doing the right things and/or should be doing it much better or different, or more pointedly "our way" because of course we are so cosmic and given the chance would do a much better job, why continue with Christianity or belief at all?

You have testified many times that the worldly folk are better than churches....like football clubs (sorry I checked you said "soccer" which would be better described as paraplegic kicking and head bouncing) are much better than churches. So go and join and watch them. Very peaceful. As someone one humorously said "I once went to a brawl and a soccer match broke out". The soccer clubs in Melbourne HATE each other with a vengeance based on racial and religious differences and have even resorted to severe assaults and arson. Soccer here nearly became bankrupt and defunct because of the corruption and violence. Got any other "good" examples?

You asked Ralph "what am I to make of that". Well you metaphorically speaking, tried to make origami of steel sheets and failed. You start with a mole hill with Everest as your final goal and complained that everyone including God, wasn't helping your quest. You refuse to accept ANY other way but that which you deem right.

With regard to your daughter's "perhaps" marriage, the two paths you mention, are NOT the only paths. You are as always tilting at windmills. It hasn't happened yet. But what would I know? My son who also is a teacher, in Taiwan, has just married, a few week back, a Chinese (Taiwanese) Buddhist.

If we walk in the way of Jesus, people will by our love to one another (dare I say fellowshipping together! or doing church) know we are His disciples and He will call them by our example. There is nothing in this world that God doesn't know about......trusting and obeying......will align us to His ways.

John
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