hey there, will have a think on that one and reply later when my head is a bit less distracted

earth5

Quoting Ian

Paul passed on several 'traditions' that he had himself had received, including one that relates to the observance of communion. And I might just use it as an example now. Communion for most of us involves a small piece of bread or biscuit, and a little, individual cup of juice of wine; each being handed to us by an attendant. This, quite simply, is our tradition, and yet it has absolutely no basis whatsoever in what we find within the NT days! There, 'communion' was the crowning act of a common meal. After dinner, a loaf of bread was blessed, and then passed around from one person to another (in other words, everyone served everyone). Further, the cup itself was common (probably not a good idea in our day of Hep A, C, D, etc), again being passed around from person to person. Further, the wine, of course, was alcoholic, being diluted in both Jewish and Greek practice with water. At the conclusion of 'communion', everyone assembled sang a hymn, the 'service' then ended, with each going their separate ways.

Does your church do any of this? I'd wager not. Strictly speaking, then, what you do for communion can't lay claim to being scriptural. However, that doesn't automatically make in invalid. After all, communion was intended to be a remembrance celebration, taken and shared as such by the assembled church.

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By the way, the scriptures i put up there were in reference to an RF person trying to prove to me that you MUST take communion on the first day of every week.

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Oh my!! In the 3 decades I've been associated with RCI/RF that's never been a dogma I've heard. I hope the person wasn't in any position of authority or leadership.

I won't even try to comprehensively discuss my understanding of the theology of the Lord's Supper. I will say that I believe the bible says it is a ritual that Christian's ought to celebrate, but like you I don't believe the bible says Christians "MUST take communion on the first day of every week".

If this person comes up with this again, I'd ask whether his/her RF celebrates a true "agape" meal as per the 1st century church on the first day of every week! And if they don't then ask why s/he doesn't follow that literally, if s/he is so concerned about when and how often s/he thinks the Lord's Supper should be celebrated!

  At our church, communion is taken twice a month, either at the morning , or at the evening service. I asked why it was'nt every week, and he told me he had a dread of it turning into a ritual, and losing it's meaning. Because , as I've said elsewhere, my wife is coeliac, our bread is a gluten free variety, a small loaf is broken, onto a platter, passed round by servers,and we each break a piece off, and eat it. The wine (juice) is passed round, then we all drink together.

When I was laid up for 6 weeks after maj. surgery, they brought the bread and wine to my house, so that my wife and I could partake.  After, they annointed me with oil, and laid hands on me, how about that? Yet I remember asking the Pastor of our Rev fellowship, if that could be done for a very sick lady in my house group, who had been unable to get to a meeting for over a month, and was unlikely to recover. His answer was  We dont do that, that's something the Catholics do. I remember the same man, in a talk, telling us how important it was for us to take communion. But only if you could get to the meeting apparently. Another example of RFbeing literal and legalistic on certain things, while ignoring others, as in Mark 16.?

When I was laid up for 6 weeks after maj. surgery, they brought the bread and wine to my house, so that my wife and I could partake. After, they annointed me with oil, and laid hands on me, how about that? Yet I remember asking the Pastor of our Rev fellowship, if that could be done for a very sick lady in my ho

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Hi old h,

I believe it is so good for us to hear about the awesome churches that we are all attending now. What better way for them to show their love for you than to 'bring church' to you when you were sick.  I absolutely LOVE it. We are so blessed and God has honoured our prayers and placed us in just the right church for us where they 'make up' for the horrid experiences of the past.  Lets all keep looking forward old h cos I KNOW it's only gonna get better ! 

I'm pretty pumped up tonight cos we all got together last night and watched a DVD of John Bevere's called "Intimacy with the Holy Spirit" and then had a full-on prayer session after, which kept me going all through my work day today. I LOVE GOD SO MUCH and will be eternally grateful that he has transplanted me & my family into a great church.

Thanks for sharing your story with us - we can all learn and grow from each other's uplifting experiences. When I'm in UK I hope I'll be welcome in your church  - it sounds just great!

Love to Mrs old h, Urch

OOPS! Sorry everyone - I forgot to log in before writing the above post.  but you probably guessed it was me anyway!

Urchin

Our church has communion most sundays either in the morning or the evening service, no particular pattern to it. My sister when she left the rev ctr found this a bit of an issue at her new church to begin with however realised that in the rev ctr that they had turned it into a ritual and on that in general held not a lot of relevence to the partakers of communion in the rcf .

Like anything if it becomes a repetitive ritual then the rcf have made it a relegious icon like the things that they charge tradition churches with.

If you want to do it every week do it if you want to do it every day do it, lets us not make rules and regulations about communion, its about relationship with our God and Saviour Jesus and thi sis all just another part of our walk/relationship with him.

Does your friend pray and read his bible everyday? (if so good on them) however if not.....................he is putting one thing higher than another and creating an idol.

just my rambling thoughts on things

earth5

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Reply to : old holbornWhen I was laid up for 6 weeks after maj. surgery, they brought the bread and wine to my house, so that my wife and I could partake. After, they annointed me with oil, and laid hands on me, how about that? Yet I remember asking the Pastor of our Rev fellowship, if that could be done for a very sick lady in my hoHi old h,I believe it issogood forus to hear about the awesome churches that we are all attending now. What better way for them to show their love for you than to 'bring church' to you when you were sick. I absolutely LOVE it.We areso blessedandGod has honouredour prayers and placed us in just the right church for us where they 'make up' for the horrid experiences of the past. Lets all

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Dear Urch, are you  planning on coming over? If so you will be more than welcome to visit us for a few days, and come along to a Sunday Service at our little chapel. Youre right , about being transplanted, He did'nt let us wither, or wilt, it was a case of out of Rev. one week, the following Sun. we were in a place that we immediately felt safe and at home in, where we have put down roots now and are growing and blossoming. We are a part of our community now too, where before we left our community and drove for an hour, then spent all day away, \Over the years we spent so much time away, meetings, camps etc, that we were never able to be part of the community, make friends outside, join in any of the many activities that our neighbours enjoy. Now we have this wonderful freedom, fellowship with other groups, un-restricted friendship with who we please. It's  like being born again, once more 

Sun. mornings at about 10 -15, we set off to stroll round to the Church, not 10 min. away, and we might walk along chatting to our Methodist neighbours, or it might be the Anglican ones, whatever, but we know them all, we're all friends , theres no feeling of them and us, of feeling superior, there is truly the sense of being part of one body, off  to do our own function, in our own way. We still haven't quite got over the novelty of it all, I feel like Rip Van Winkle, woken from a 20 yr sleep, How much love and joy, right here on our doorstep, but we turned our backs on it, and segregated ourselves., looking inwards, afraid of the contamination we were assured would be our fate "out there "

Well, Urch, we know different now, dont we, "out there" is great, there's a vast congregation of like minded souls, who want to love and serve the Lord, walking in the Spirit, and getting out and making a difference to the world around them, serving, and giving, without judgement, but with compassion. And I thank God for showing me that, and giving me the opertunity to be a part of it. If only a small part.

God bless.

Peter.O>H

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One emphasis is past, one is future. The act itself is present.
I preached on the Markan passage in church a couple of years ago. If anyone is interested, I can email them my preaching commentary which, I think, explicates the intertwined themes in much greater colour and vibrancy than is possible here.

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Yes please Ian - could you please email it to me?  (I'll PM you with an email address)

 I feel the desire to hear as much as possible and learn as much as I can. I never really delved too deeply into the scriptures during my 'time' (if I did, I probably wouldn't have hung around so long) but now find an almost insatiable desire to know more.  I am feeling incredibly 'released' from my old RF ways  and I think I am now addicted to God,     LOL 

S Urchin

Hi Sott, I found the Quote from your post today really important to me.

There's an awful lot of very deep and meaningful promise theology tied up in this (communion). Anyway, so in effect, the purpose of Communion is twofold: by partaking we identify ourselves with the community of the Crucified One, as well as with the community of the Redeemed One. One emphasis is past, one is future. The act itself is present.

My question relates to the promise theology. Can you please expand?  As I get my head around plenty of things at the moment it will be helpful for me if you were to to expand a little on this (it may or may not be what I think it is).

However of recent times as I've considered the rightful place and correct emphasis on the recieving the holy ghost / tounges. In relationship to the promise. Is it correct to say the revers would put this holy ghost experience as the promise.

The way I am seeing it is the promise is the kingdom and everlasting life and us revers me included have put the recieving of the Spirit as the be all and end all, instead as the helper / comforter.

Please be gentle this is new turf for me. 

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The way I am seeing it is the promise is the kingdom and everlasting life and us revers me included have put the recieving of the Spirit as the be all and end all, instead as the helper / comforter.  Please be gentle this is new turf for me. 

__________________________________________________________________________________

Hi FG, I know you're asking Ian the question, but I just wanted to add my two bob's worth as well. The Holy Spirit is indeed the comforter and helper, but is also much more than what the revs believe.

It almost seems to me that the Revs believe that tongues IS the Holy Spirit - rather than being one of the gifts.  In fact, the Holy Spirit is a person like God is and like Jesus is - it is not a SIGN.  If you ask the (RF) pastors to explain whether God, Jesus & the Holy Ghost are one or are three - they will not agree on an answer because they do not know themselves and prefer not to 'make a stand' either way. The Holy Spirit is referred to in the scriptures as a ' he' not an ' it ' and his role is to rejuvenate and renew people. It is unscriptural to say that the Holy Spirit does anything except lift up the name of Jesus. We can build more of a relationship with Jesus by asking the Holy Spirit to help us to see Jesus more clearly.

The 'receiving' of the spirit is not the 'be all and end all' (as you said above) and neither is speaking in tongues  - it's all about relationship and revelation.   

Thus endeth my two bob's worth, amen

Urch

Thanks.

FG

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Reply to : franks ghostThe way I am seeing it is the promise is the kingdom and everlasting life and us revers me included have put the recieving of the Spirit as the be all and end all, instead as the helper / comforter. Please be gentle this is new turf for me.__________________________________________________________________________________Hi FG, I know you're asking Ian the question, but I just wanted to add my two bob's worth as well. The Holy Spirit is indeedthe comforter and helper, but is alsomuch more than what the revs believe.It almost seems to me that the Revs believe that tonguesIS the Holy Spirit -rather thanbeing one of the gifts. In fact, the Holy Spirit is aperson

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Ok

FG

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Reply to : earth5Hi E5,SOTT1 carnt you just answer a question???Sure I can. But sometimes it isn't as much fun, and sometimes it isn't as beneficial as a person thinking about things for themselves.Capiche?Ian

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Sure it can be more fun . For You, and I appreciatte that you want us to find out for ourselves but sometimes it just nice to have it easy so that we can consider what you have to say, as I think that we all respect your thoughts and just want your thoughts/answer, i mean why go to all the work you have done just to tease us

Comprendai amigo

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You may be surprised to hear however of one of the talks given towards the end of last year..I actually wasn't the only one laughing and raising my eyebrows at the mis-quotation of scriptures for once, a few of my well-versed friends were too. one of the "pastors" gave a talk in which he said that you can't take communion outside of the church, that there needs to be a pastor present and not to bother with witnessing to people that aren't located near an RF because it's all too hard to visit them and give them communion. He said unless you plan on moving to that place, don't witness to anyone there. what the? he was telling off a bunch of guys that had gone on a camping holiday because they'd planned on taking communion if they didn't get back for the meeting in time (which they did anyway) but just coz they'd planned it they got in trouble. One of the guys on the camping trip was a youngies leader AND the guy who organises/runs communion for Woodcroft...

Anyway, after that a few people went and talked to the oversight about the talk coz pretty much everyone knew what he was saying was wrong, but they all got over it - there was no apology given or corrections. The young people got pretty upset though (especially the guy that is now challenging me on communion) he rang me up and asked if i could come to a bible study they were doing the next day to go over the scriptures that had been misquoted and he told me that he now realises that pastors are fallible. At least he learnt that. *sigh*

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Looks like I've gotta get around more :-( I get a sinking feeling in my gut everytime I hear something like this.

I'm a little confused, though. This was said at Woodcroft? Are they (as far as you know) still preaching that people have to have communion every Sunday, "inside" the church, with a pastor present? Was the guy who quoted the scriptures defending or questioning the every Sunday, Pastor present stuff?

BTW When I wrote "ritual" I was thinking of it in the same sense as baptism is a ritual, much as SOTT has subsequently flagged .

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hey everyone!I would like to hear your thoughts on communion and if you think it should be taken as a ritual at the same time and place on the dot once a week, fortnight, month, year...whatever! Or if doing that makes it a religous ceremony and risks the possibility of becoming meaningless,

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Wow you guys still here.

Set free you could take communion every week at the same time in the same manner using the same rituals saying the same things and if your hearts right and your doing it for the right reasons it wont be religious and will bless your soul with thanksgiving for all that JESUS achieved at calvary.

 You could also take communion randomly attempting to say something different every time and never doing it the same way twice and the attempt to do that could make it a meaningless religious ritual.

Its all about your heart and your true appreciation of the redemption achieved by a loving saviour who " for the joy that was set before him endured the cross ". Hey' thats you and me loving our salvation and freedom from sin by his shed blood and lifting our voices in true praise and worship at , especially communion time.

If you want to hear a talk from an rf pastor  that is a total corruption of the beauty and sanctity of communion service try and get a copy of talk given by a woodcroft (pck) pastor ( there title not mine ) where the congregation is told that communion can only be taken in the presence of the ( obviously rf ) oversight and at a place they designate. On holidays ? no no.  Why ? Get the cd of one of the guys gone to the Edge and be AMAZED. Its embarrassing. Its topped off with a comment " you might think this is religious .... well it is ". Got that right. This is truly awsesome listening.

Hey moth I have celebrated communion in the " traditional way " with a small home group in Nowra and it was quite a treat.

In response to a converstaion on another thread where the talk is about unfortunate instances and the hand of god in all things. I would lije to recommend a book  " Is God to blame " by Gregory Boyd and while your ordering it get a copy of his book " Repenting of Religion ". These books have changed my life and my walk with Christ.. Moth , I dont know your story but man theres some stinking pain behind story in your in your responses. I would love it if you could get the book and respond to it. This isnt some lame backhanded attempt to " rescue you " but a genuine interest in your critique of his thoughts.

Reply to : Grace4me

Hey moth I have celebrated communion in the " traditional way " with a small home group in Nowra and it was quite a treat.

Cool, there's truly something special about eating with friends. One of life's great treasure to get together and feed. What about the ritual of saying GRACE before a meal? People are always trying to tell me that's a scriptural necessity, but surely it's a ritual too. I never ever did that one unless we went out to someone's place for a meal. When the food's out I do not wait for it!

" Is God to blame " by Gregory Boyd and while your ordering it get a copy of his book " Repenting of Religion ".

Okay, I'll add it to my list of books to download once they are in pdf form and are available as a torrent download somewhere. I've really got to start reading some decent books rather than screaming everything off the top of my head. Writing without referencing is kinda cheap and worthless.

These books have changed my life and my walk with Christ.. Moth , I dont know your story but man theres some stinking pain behind story in your in your responses.

Stinking pain behind story? I'm not really sure what that means but if you're hinting at the idea that behind my comedic attempts to blog and post there is a hidden grief that I'm trying to bury, then ... maybe... but it's not a tragedy that was bourne from religion. Religion may get the brunt from the chips on my shoulder, but it doesn't really have bearing on my thoughts of it.

Moth Costello

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Reply to : earth5E5, again (and my last post until Monday).Sure it can be more fun . For YouYep. Sometimes I should be allowed to have alittle funtoo; it can help break up the monotony. After all, why must Ialwaysplay Abbott to Mothy's Costello?and I appreciatte that you want us to find out for ourselves but sometimes it just nice to have it easy so that we can consider what you have to saySure, but 'easy' isn't always what's best, or most needed. Idooccasionally 'tease' here in the hope that people will do a little exegesis for themselves, and have one of those defining 'ahhhh' moments. While some people will no doubt be offended by this, others will no doubt be challenged. I'm more interested in the latter peo

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Cool, yeah give a man a fish thanks for the reminder

earth5

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Reply to : set freehey everyone!I would like to hear your thoughts on communion and if you think it should be taken as a ritual at the same time and place on the dot once a week, fortnight, month, year...whatever! Or if doing that makes it a religous ceremony and risks the possibility of becoming meaningless,Wow you guys still here.Set free you could take communion every week at the same time in the same manner using the same rituals saying the same things and if your hearts right and your doing it for the right reasons it wont be religious and will bless your soul with thanksgiving for all that JESUS achieved at calvary.You could also take communion randomly attempting to say something different every time and n

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Grace4me, where ya been bro missed ya on the forum, love to catch up with whats been happening in your life heard a little from fg but

would love to hear where ya are all at private mail me via this forum, great to hear ya

be blessed

earth5

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Looks like I've gotta get around more :-( I get a sinking feeling in my gut everytime I hear something like this.   I'm a little confused, though.   This was said at Woodcroft?   Are they (as far as you know) still preaching that people have to have communion every Sunday, "inside" the church, with a pastor present? Was the guy who quoted the scriptures defending or questioning the every Sunday, Pastor present stuff?

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Hi RF on the edge,

It was most definitely a Woodcroft pastor that gave this talk (see G4me's post above where he/she states that he/she has heard the CD of this talk).  Also Set Free was actually there at the time. The pastor who preached this obviously still believes it as he would have made further explanations later if he had 'changed his mind'  - I personally know of many people who went to him later to ask him why he gave that talk and where he could back it up in the scriptures.  We were always told that we have to obey the oversight in all things as they are appointed by God so whether people agree or not with his talk is irrelevant to him.

He has virtually forbidden the congregation to have communion without him or another pastor present which is interesting because another pastor at the same assembly has personally said to me and others that we can and should take communion regularly, particularly when we are 'out of fellowship' for being naughty.  I'm sure you  are aware, communion is taken at every Sunday meeting without fail in RF in exactly the same manner as it has been in the 24 years that I attended and the 30+ years that you have been attending. 

May I ask why you are confused and why you get a 'sinking feeling in your gut' and why you feel you need to get around more??  I feel that this post has shocked you in some way - may I ask why? If you don't wish to post to everyone, would you PM me your thoughts please?

Kind regards, Sea Urchin

Thanks. I had read G4Me's post and followups. The way I wrote was pretty much rhetorical, but ...

As per my post, I wasn't sure from what was then written regarding:
(a) whether the events happened at Woodcroft
(b) whether the doctrine was still being preached, or whether it had been taken back after the preacher was spoken to (if stuff is taken back, my experience is that there's no public apology or explanation, it's just not mentioned)
(c) whether the person who gave you the scriptures was defending it to you, or getting you to help him/her question it

That said I'm actually more concerned at the emotional and spiritual abuse being dished out and suffered.

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Reply to : Sea UrchinThanks. I had read G4Me's post and followups. The way I wrote was pretty much rhetorical

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Hi RFOTE,

Yes it is pretty amazing that an actual pastor would preach something like that huh? 

Then again, what qualifies a particular person in RF to become a pastor? Is it who they are related to or is it the amount of compassion, wisdom and love for people, or is it their qualifications?  The (Adelaide) oversight constantly scoffed at other churches and how 'their pastors go to Bible college to get qualifications'.  If people ever required counselling at any time, the sensible ones would not go to a (RF) pastor for it as they ARE ALL unqualified and have NO IDEA how to handle most situations which is evident by the huge amount of  problems within the assembly. People with depression were told to just pray about it and get over it - no further help, advice or assistance. Very sad indeed! 

I guess it makes the RF pastors feel righteous to be able to say 'we are appointed by God, we don't need training in counselling or understanding the scriptures'

Urchin

I would go even further SU and say that some of them just don't acknowledge depression at all.

I asked one of them to pray for me in the prayer line one day because after having been put out i suffered from depression again (like i had when i was younger and had already been healed of it) but he refused! He said, no I wont pray for that because you aren't depressed, you're just a bit down about some things that have happened. I couldn't believe it!? surely only someone qualified in the mental Health area would be able to make such an assessment and even then not within 5 seconds!!!

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Reply to : Sea Urchin......  every time I hear about another stupid and unscriptural thing being taught in a place I once respected as being biblically-based and once called my spiritual home, and I see my brothers and sisters being misled and hurt. It's something like saying to myself, "You're kidding, someone's found another way to remove RF from the biblical pattern!!???"

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Hi RFOTE,

Gotta agree with that - I was pretty lucky that I wasn't hurt personally but have seen enough done to others to make me glad that I left.   By misleading people, they are setting themselves up for a huge shaking from God which I believe is going to come and not just in the form of large numbers of people leaving. 

On Aust Christian Channel last week a guy from Canada (H Malick or something like that) gave a talk about legalistic churches that follow their own pattern and don't follow the biblical pattern and the possible consequences of that.          He said there were three things that could happen - they would either die spiritually or be physically removed (not sure exactly what he meant by that but sounds scary) or repent. They have the choice to repent and God will bless them but if they do not they will eventually be removed by God.  It was a pretty amazing talk and I hope to get a copy of it as he made lots of other really good points also.

God bless, Urchin

Reply to : Sea Urchin

I'm glad you weren't hurt and glad you've found an encouraging place of fellowship and growth in Christ.

I've seen your other posts, but I'm trying to cut down the time I spend here as it's becoming an addiction to me.

Personally, I'm not convinced there's going to be any significant change to the "legalism" thing (eg eventual removal by God) until Jesus returns. Also, I don't see much in the bible that judges churches as organisations ... it seems to refer to Christians as individuals. Of course individuals are responsible for what happens in organisations, so I see that God responds to organisational corruption by dealing with the individuals.

This is probably as good a place as any to suggest people read "12 'Christian' beliefs that can drive you crazy" by Cloud and Townsend (the authors of the "Boundaries ..." series). It seems a lot of the "unwise" counselling that's come from RF over the years is similar to what 's happenning in somef other Christain circles.

(No Moth, believing that a transcendent God becomes mortal, is born, lives as dies as a human, and is raised to life three days (on the third day?) after experiencing the most humiliating death isn't included!! )