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mf doom
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Date Posted:12/07/2006 6:30 AMCopy HTML

i don't know if this is a question of 'determinism', but simply put, is there a common thread with all of those who have left such and institution? was there a spiritual deathwish lying dormant in us? (snakechick isn't here, but i should still excuse myself for using 'us', 'we' and prescriptive language like 'should'). this (yes, still ambiguous) question is important for those who consider themselves to be 'freers' - people who want to free someone from the grip of humiliating mind-control (from one biased perspective). if we see these people as robo-zombies whose brains have been washed and implanted with a new operating system, maybe there is a glitch in their script. a weakspot. i know this makes us sound like the predators and even if we claim to be saviours, we end up being just like them. but we can look at this without any intention of converting/de-converting/re-converting/re-programming/re-educating or (my personal favourite): educating the person in question. we can simply examine what it was that made us leave. was it that we never surrendered completely? this one is hard for me to say, but i can say that there are some who seemed to have and claim to have surrendered completely and it was the being put out by the oversight that jolted them into the new train of thought. then again, if these people 'sinned' again the church guidelines, they might not have surrendered as completely as they thought, or became 'comfortable' in their walk. at the moment i see it as you either get put out or choose to leave yourself. choosing to leave by yourself could indicate that a lot of thought has been put into the decision over a long period of time. OR that you weren't in the assembly for very long. you might have felt like you belonged somewhere else more than you belonged in the assembly, which may imply that you had become close to work/school mates and/or family, or just never completely severed your outside contacts. the worldview i have now, well, at least many of the points of views and arguments that it comprises, were directed towards me at a time when i had one foot in and out of the church door. yet my mind was still rigid in defending MY GROUP (identity, and therefore ME, or a part of me). those arguments had no effect. but somewhere along the line i decided that i WANTED to agree with them and see the truth in them. it may have something to do with the fact that i felt close to (including blood-relations) the people giving me their secular(?)/intellectual(?) [WORLDLY] point of view, or the fact that i had experienced my first (unnatural) altered state of consciousness (and all it's revelations and 'eye-opening' emotions and realisations/understanding of possible other realities/perspectives and of mental health and effects/vulnerability of various mental states) around about the same time. or was it just that period of transition after being put out? maybe it was enough time (but it was only one month) to feel like i had better support/identity outside of the church? for me, it was a combination of a whole heap of things including the above, for sure. but i don't know if i can put my finger on the turning point. i think it is probably a result of never quite assimilating. it was always 'almost', but i could not let go of the (illusiory[?]) ideal of maintaining my own uniqueness, even if it meant being a little 'on the edge' (in the words of a famous pastor). i think something like this (pride, egocentricism, and other such evils [dignity, even]) could also cause the 'sins' against guidelines and if not, then people really have strong natural emotions (in cases sexual, for instance). if someone is put out for obeying their nature over their second nature, then maybe they realised that certain breeds of christianity are unreasonably unnatural. archaic 'barbaric' 'civilisation'. an evil legacy. (oh no, that's just me). then there's the brutal fact that one is not allowed back. the doors are closed. that rejection after making you dependant. if in this situation, on must go to another church to satisfy the charismatic addiction and eventually embrace the new 'more forgiving' doctrine which helps them realise the wrong in the revivalistic bitches. OR just quit church althogether. i guess many people take it personally. many would become self-hateful and unworthy. it's either that church or none (just like they were led to believe before they were cut-off the methodone project and then told there are many churches out there). some come crawling back and get accepted. then end up thanking the dungeon master for the well-deserved and highly rewarding punishment. so many situations that could be converted into a flow diagram, i'm sure. i'll do it one day when i have the non-laziness. somewhere in between, there may be a loophole. the opportunity for a counterscript. i'm saying, if we look at our collective experiences, we can use that knowledge to our advantage, providing that we have a roughly similar goal/interest... do we? if we are are not too influenced by our bitterness or hatred, i feel that many here at this forum are more honest now that when in the other places. if there is a goal and a higher degree of truth (i know, big statement), shall not justice come to pass? the truth is good, right? what is it/was it that allows us to allow ourselves to believe something else? is it a temptation that is the bait? is it something you were looking for and wanted to hear? is it completely random/spontaneous? is it a seed that plants itself/gets planted and is watered? those who will *never* be persuaded (is this possible) - are they better off in that place or are they the worst victims who should be cared for more?
if it gives you joy, enjoy! life aint pretty without it
MothandRust Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #1
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Re:THE TURNING POINT... the ones that left - were they always going to?

Date Posted:12/07/2006 3:27 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : avenger dude

then there's the brutal fact that one is not allowed back. the doors are closed. that rejection after making you dependant. if in this situation, on must go to another church to satisfy the charismatic addiction and eventually embrace the new 'more forgiving' doctrine which helps them realise the wrong in the revivalistic bitches. OR just quit church althogether. i guess many people take it personally. many would become self-hateful and unworthy. it's either that church or none (just like they were led to believe before they were cut-off the methodone project and then told there are many churches out there). some come crawling back and get accepted. then end up thanking the dungeon master for the well-deserved and highly rewarding punishment.

I think the exclusiveness of Revival is a selling point for them. The whole kicking out and shun process seems to add value to a very shonky product. You know the old saying, "give it away and no one wants it, charge for it and they'll line up outside the door". They bring across a message that what they have is soooo special and sacred that if you dare to leave there ain't no substitute. Pffft...

I remember when I was made redundant from my job I was pretty quick to go work for the opposition to get back at them. i worked bloody hard to steal their clients. It was very satisfying. I suppose I was like that after leaving the RF. I joined the more successfully numbered Baptist lot and got a kick at how much better everything was.. music, services, special interest groups etc etc. And yeah, it felt good to be able to preach a salvation gospel that was more user friendly than the Speaking in Tongues hard sell.

But thankfully for me, my mind had got broader and more open and I was still wide-eyed in wonder for the big wide beautiful world that lay outside the Revival walls. I was sick of the fake glossed over christian look, raising our hands to Hillsong at the roof and feeling all warm and fuzzy inside because we were making God so proud of us by telling Him how great he is in song.

Nice to be out.

From cowardice that shuns new truth,
From indolence, content with half truth,
From arrogance that claims all truth,
Good Lord, deliver us.
--anonymous

[LINK SiteName=Mothrust: Movies and Modern Myth Target=_blank]http://aintchristian.blogspot.com.au/[/LINK] Be nice, for everyone that you meet is fighting a harder battle - Anita Roddick
mf doom Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #2
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Re:THE TURNING POINT... the ones that left - were they always going to?

Date Posted:17/07/2006 8:05 AMCopy HTML

that also reminds me about simple facts like people like to be led. they need a leader. they (we) thirst after truth (a quality), but people seem to follow those who speak with authority (i think i even read that in the bible).

ministry is a skill these days. there are techniques. there are schools and degrees in it (almost did it!). politicians know all about this type of thing.

that warm fuzzy feeling is something manufactured in one's head with words and thoughts.

stirring up the spirit - must add this to the euphemisms... and 'pressing in' is exiting one's self. working one's self into a frenzy. fanticising, imagining.

the truly sad thing about it is that these are usually sad, lonely, bored people who are scared of death. scared of reality (truth!). so they make they're own and defend it tooth and nail. there is no otherwise.

this is why i don't like to diss them too much (even though i do). it's really sad. i've been there, but have strengthened myself and i really do believe that i am not scared to die anymore. i used to hate this fact so much, ever since i was a kid and i feel like i sound insensitive or soul-less. but i also think you can only start living once you are not scared of death.

i think that facing one's self and the harsh reality is the turning point, but i'm not sure what triggers it, when it comes or how to coax it out of ignorant people. this knowledge would be priceless.


if it gives you joy, enjoy! life aint pretty without it
dogmafree Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #3
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Re:THE TURNING POINT... the ones that left - were they always going to?

Date Posted:01/10/2006 7:24 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : avenger dude



i don't know if this is a question of 'determinism', but simply put,is there a common thread with all of those who have left such and institution? was there a spiritual deathwish lying dormant in us? (snakechick isn't here, but i should still excuse myself for using 'us', 'we' and prescriptive language like 'should').this (yes, still ambiguous) question is important for those who consider themselves to be 'freers' - people who want to free someone from the grip of humiliating mind-control (from one biased perspective).if we see these people as robo-zombies whose brains have been washed and implanted with a new operating system, maybe there is a glitch in their script.a weakspot. i know this makes us sound like the predators and even if we claim to be saviours, we end up being just like them.but we can look at this without any intention





Hey Av Dude,

A very good point/question you've raised here!!!

Yes I think you are right, there are certain people who may be more predisposed to becoming caught up in a cult, (although it is not totally definitive).

A few years back I did a fairly full-on course called 'Mastery and Vision', a NON-religious course that is quite comprehensive but rather difficult to explain in brief. Its sort of a life skills course, but that doesn't do it justice. I could give you more info if interested.

Anyway, some stuff we learned about was 'character structure analysis'. It looked at our basic personality types, and went a long way to explaining why we tend to follow a certain script in life, fall into certain relationships, have certain traits etc.

More specifically we looked at our 'action cycle' in regard to our character type....

I feel that most people who fall into cults or many other kind of organisations have what is defined as an 'Other oriented character structure'. Some notes I have from the course are here....

"OTHER-ORIENTATION.... Who I am is my ability to respond to the needs, requirements, desires, values, expectations (both real and imaginary) of you, and society and the world-and I have no choice in this. Whether or not these needs, requirements etc are real or perceived doesn't really matter. I will keep compulsively responding anyway, because that's what I must keep doing.

THE NEGATIVE CONSEQUENCES OF NOT DEFENDING MY IDENTITY.....

I fear that if I don't keep responding to you, then:

I will feel guilty for failing you or hurting you and/or...

Something bad will happen to me.

DEFENCE OF MY IDENTITY.....

I must protect myself from the strong feelings and fears associated with these negative consequences by continuing to submit my will to your will (by continuing to respond to your requirements, values etc).

In compulsively submitting my will to the wil of others, I will lose my ability to act in my own self-interest, and I may not even know what my own self-interest is.

The submissive nature is often covert, and may not be apparent.

Very often, there is resentment and resistance (but it is uncinscious).

Av Dude, these are just little snippets of info on the topic, but I think you get the idea. People develop their character structure and personality from many different influences, mostly early in life and really proceed on automatic pilot, unaware of why they go through life in certain ways. Modification of these programs is possible to some degree, essentially by becoming aware of these things and by various methods. It is fascinating stuff, and it has helped me enormously.

Let me know if you are interested in further exploration of any of this.

Regards,

the Dog.
"for there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so" Shakespeare (Hamlet, Act 2, Scene 2)
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