Forum for ex-members of Revival Churches
Revival_Centres_Discussion_Forums > Bible, Beliefs, Scriptures and 'The Word' > Didaktikon debunks Revivalist 'Theology' Go to subcategory:
Author Content
Ex_Member
  • Rank:
  • Score:0
  • Posts:0
  • From:Unknown
  • Register:21/09/2018 12:36 AM

Date Posted:28/09/2009 9:33 AMCopy HTML

Ian,

How did you do those lovely diagram lines on page 4 of "Revivalist dogma and the Book of Acts" ??? were you using MS-Word.??? those lines pointing with arrows from chapter 2 to chapter 10 and apostles to apostles is quite impressive buddy.. Certainly makes for a smarter presenting or more reader friendly document...

Meta.
Didaktikon Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #1
  • Rank:Forum Oracle
  • Score:62130
  • Posts:2958
  • From:Australia
  • Register:29/08/2007 7:54 AM

Re:Stone of Scone, Didaktikos?

Date Posted:28/09/2009 10:33 PMCopy HTML

Good morning, Eric.

Well, I tend to eschew Micro$oft's commercial products where and when I can, so I didn't make use of its Office suite when I wrote that essay. I prefer the completely free, open source, and far more intuitive Sun Microsystems Open Office.org business productivity suite. It does everything that MS Office does, and is compatible (both forwards and backwards) with documents prepared on MS Office templates. In common with MS Office, Open Office.org allows one to insert arrows and similar "word art" features into one's documents, which I did. Incidentally, the slideshow presentation that accompanied my Junia paper, and which I sent to you, was also produced on Open Office.org's equivalent to MS PowerPoint.

Blessings,

Ian

email: didaktikon@gmail.com
Uncoolman Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #2
  • Rank:Poster Venti III
  • Score:10080
  • Posts:324
  • From:Unknown
  • Register:05/04/2003 2:38 PM

Re:Stone of Scone, Didaktikos?

Date Posted:06/01/2010 8:44 AMCopy HTML

 Hi Ian,

Need a small favour... I have a young friend here in Jerusalem that expresed the desire to translate from the LXX.. For me, I would go the Hebrew way and use the Mosoretic Text and NIDOTTE etc. However this young friend has no handle on Hebrew but on the other hand is reasonably competent in Greek. What Lexicon(s) would you recommend for sourches since NIDNTT and TDNT don't really apply and the BDAG falls a little short... Perhaps a Helenistic Lexicon ???

thanks Ian

Blessings
Eric 
Didaktikon Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #3
  • Rank:Forum Oracle
  • Score:62130
  • Posts:2958
  • From:Australia
  • Register:29/08/2007 7:54 AM

Re:Stone of Scone, Didaktikos?

Date Posted:06/01/2010 12:48 PMCopy HTML

Eric, שָׁלוֹם.

Need a small favour... I have a young friend here in Jerusalem that expresed the desire to translate from the LXX.. For me, I would go the Hebrew way and use the Mosoretic Text and NIDOTTE etc. However this young friend has no handle on Hebrew but on the other hand is reasonably competent in Greek. What Lexicon(s) would you recommend for sourches since NIDNTT and TDNT don't really apply and the BDAG falls a little short... Perhaps a Helenistic Lexicon ???

There are a couple of very good (albeit expensive) lexica that deal with the range of koine Greek that one encounters in the Septuagint. Obviously, Liddell-Scott-Jones would work; however, there are two alternatives that specialise specifically in "Septuagintal" Greek: Lust-Eynikel-Hauspie's, Greek-English Lexicon of the Septuagint, or the more recent and comprehensive, A Greek-English Lexicon of the Septuagint by Muraoka. I possess all three; all are excellent but the last named is certainly the "best". My advice? Unless your friend is a Greek scholar, I doubt that he could justify the expense of any of them. Far better instead that he purchases a good English translation of the LXX, such as the recent, A New English Translation of the Septuagint by Pietersma and Wright.

Blessings,

Ian

email: didaktikon@gmail.com
Uncoolman Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #4
  • Rank:Poster Venti III
  • Score:10080
  • Posts:324
  • From:Unknown
  • Register:05/04/2003 2:38 PM

Re:Stone of Scone, Didaktikos?

Date Posted:07/01/2010 3:23 AMCopy HTML

 Thanks Ian Eucharisto !!!

As usual you are awesome again. The "young friend" is named "Larissa" and is in her young 20's and has just finished GK II (with a HD !!) for her BTh and now wants to do  GK III and GK IV for her Masters. It's wonderful to see the "next generation" of Biblical Scholars coming on !!

Once again thanks Ian

Schlom from the Old City of Jerusalem..

Ericos
Uncoolman Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #5
  • Rank:Poster Venti III
  • Score:10080
  • Posts:324
  • From:Unknown
  • Register:05/04/2003 2:38 PM

Re:Stone of Scone, Didaktikos?

Date Posted:11/01/2010 6:12 PMCopy HTML

Here's something I have just noticed Ianos:  Verse 6 in Acts 2: "genomenes de tes phones" "Genomenes is aorist and so we could translate this verse as "When this sound happened". However the NRSV gives it as "And at this sound the crowd gathered."

So the point I make is this:

    If the sound of the Apostles being filled with the Holy Spirit is happening and the translater has stated "at this sound" then how are the apostles able to transport themselves from one side of Jerusalem to the Temple in a moment ??  I did not know that Scotty and his Star Trek crew were able to lend a hand because how can the Apostles be at one side of Jerusalem and then at the same moment be at the Temple ???

To my critics I say "Go figure!!"

blessings Ianos

Ericos 
Uncoolman Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #6
  • Rank:Poster Venti III
  • Score:10080
  • Posts:324
  • From:Unknown
  • Register:05/04/2003 2:38 PM

Re:Stone of Scone, Didaktikos?

Date Posted:13/01/2010 2:24 AMCopy HTML

Whilst "googleing" for Mt Moriah, I found this from an article regarding the temple mount and in the light of Revivalistic British Israel thinking, thought was rather interesting.

Wasn't it the "Jacob" stone to been found in the Corination chair at Westminister, according to the Revs ? ;

Dome of The Rock - Jerusalem Old City
It is the site where Abraham prepared to sacrifice his son Isaac.
Jacob, son of Isaac, gathered stone from this same site, and using this stone as a pillow spent the night sleeping upon the rock. Upon waking from a stunning visionary dream, Jacob anointed the stone pillow with oil he had received from heaven and the stone then sank deep into the earth, to become the foundation stone of the Great Temple built by Solomon.





Glad-to be out Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #7
  • Rank:Posterior Maximus
  • Score:15160
  • Posts:701
  • From:Faroe_islands
  • Register:07/04/2006 8:57 AM

Re:Stone of Scone, Didaktikos?

Date Posted:13/01/2010 4:30 AMCopy HTML

 According to BI myth, Jeremiah left Egypt with Princess Temar Tephi taking that particular stone with them to Ireland and then onto England.
The Bible mentions that stone will be relocated 3 times and then some prophecy would be fulfilled.
Scotland laid claim to it a few years ago (I don't know if they got it) the GRC was all atwitter because it was a sign of end times when it was relocated for the third time.
I guess if you believed that it was that exact piece of rock, then you might be worried.
It is a fascinating story and is an intrinsic part of the Covenant people's belief system as you say Brolga. (incl most Revivalist churches and the GRC)
I like the 'google' explanation. Sounds less far fetched.
"Faith is not about everything turning out OK; Faith is about being OK no matter how things turn out."
Didaktikon Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #8
  • Rank:Forum Oracle
  • Score:62130
  • Posts:2958
  • From:Australia
  • Register:29/08/2007 7:54 AM

Re:Stone of Scone, Didaktikos?

Date Posted:13/01/2010 5:59 AMCopy HTML

Glad et Ralph,

The "Stone of Scone" was examined several years ago. Guess what? It was conclusively proven to be naught but Scottish red sandstone! I guess I'm a little unsure as to why God apparently chose to translate a hunk of Caledonian rock to Palestine, just so Jacob could pour a wee dram of oil onto it. Methinks the "loonies" need to start engaging their intellects as much as they do their imaginations

Blessings,

Ian

email: didaktikon@gmail.com
Glad-to be out Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #9
  • Rank:Posterior Maximus
  • Score:15160
  • Posts:701
  • From:Faroe_islands
  • Register:07/04/2006 8:57 AM

Re:Stone of Scone, Didaktikos?

Date Posted:13/01/2010 6:31 AMCopy HTML

 Brolga, you probably didn't find any reference, but don't forget that the GRC can make the KJV say ANYTHING they want it to.
I'm sure that I have the verse underlined somewhere in my, "Christ's words in red" not recommended by the GRC, KJV bible.
If I find it will add it here.
Cheers,
Glad
"Faith is not about everything turning out OK; Faith is about being OK no matter how things turn out."
Uncoolman Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #10
  • Rank:Poster Venti III
  • Score:10080
  • Posts:324
  • From:Unknown
  • Register:05/04/2003 2:38 PM

Re:Stone of Scone, Didaktikos?

Date Posted:15/01/2010 5:13 PMCopy HTML

Reply to Didaktikon

Glad et Ralph,

The "Stone of Scone" was examined several years ago. Guess what? It was conclusively proven to be naught but Scottish red sandstone! I guess I'm a little unsure as to why God apparently chose to translate a hunk of Caledonian rock to Palestine, just so Jacob could pour a wee dram of oil onto it. Methinks the "loonies" need to start engaging their intellects as much as they do their imaginations

Blessings,

Ian



Ian et All,

After spending three days down in the Negev and Judean Wilderness, I can assure you all that sandstone is nowhere to be found in Eretz Israel. The major composing rock is Limestone. These are generally eocene, senonian and cenomanian. Eocene is a soft limestone, and senonian is chalk limestone whilst cenomanian is a hard limestone that breaks down into a reddish brown soil called "terra rosa" and is highly fertile and good for growing things such as wheat and olives etc.. Bethel which is just 15 Klm north of Jerusalem up in Ephraim's territory that borders with Benjamin is mostly cenomanian with lots of terra rosa soil.. 

So you WON'T find sandstone at Bethel .. NO NOT AT ALL.. Of course you will find the basalt volcanic stuff and the flintstone over in the Judean Wilderness which Joshua used to make flint knives out of in order to trim the young men at Gilgal before entering the promised land. So Israel is mostly different aged limestone.. So it looks like Lloyd Longfield and the Revival Centre leaders, Victor Samoilenko and Darcy Ryan and the rest of their gullible leaders have goofed up badly here..

Before I go. Scored a good pic of one of Ian's favourite libraries - No 4 cave at Qumran.. Will share when I get back..

blessings

Eric 
Uncoolman Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #11
  • Rank:Poster Venti III
  • Score:10080
  • Posts:324
  • From:Unknown
  • Register:05/04/2003 2:38 PM

Re:Stone of Scone, Didaktikos?

Date Posted:16/01/2010 4:10 AMCopy HTML

Reply to Glad-to be out

 According to BI myth, Jeremiah left Egypt with Princess Temar Tephi taking that particular stone with them to Ireland and then onto England.
The Bible mentions that stone will be relocated 3 times and then some prophecy would be fulfilled.
Scotland laid claim to it a few years ago (I don't know if they got it) the GRC was all atwitter because it was a sign of end times when it was relocated for the third time.
I guess if you believed that it was that exact piece of rock, then you might be worried.
It is a fascinating story and is an intrinsic part of the Covenant people's belief system as you say Brolga. (incl most Revivalist churches and the GRC)
I like the 'google' explanation. Sounds less far fetched.

Hi Glad,

It might make a profitable exercise in consulting a good commentry on Ezekial's passage and in particularly focus on the meaning and context of the word "overturn".

Ask Brolga nicely to have a look for you as he is a eager young man with lots of time on his hand...

Blessings

Eric

Glad-to be out Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #12
  • Rank:Posterior Maximus
  • Score:15160
  • Posts:701
  • From:Faroe_islands
  • Register:07/04/2006 8:57 AM

Re:Stone of Scone, Didaktikos?

Date Posted:20/01/2010 4:32 AMCopy HTML

 Hi Eric,

Ezekiel 21 verse 27. Brilliant. I have the following note in my Bible from the 'good ol' days', -The throne went from the Middle East to Ireland, Ireland to Scotland, Scotland to England, thus fulfilling the prophecy.

After reading the whole chapter, I am amazed, no, saddened by the way we (GRCers) were so gullible, naive and able to be misled so mightily by the twits that run the whole show.

We so wanted to belong and believe, that we believed anything the men in position threw at us.

I would welcome anyone's educated opinion on the chapter and verse.

Cheers,

Glad

 
"Faith is not about everything turning out OK; Faith is about being OK no matter how things turn out."
Uncoolman Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #13
  • Rank:Poster Venti III
  • Score:10080
  • Posts:324
  • From:Unknown
  • Register:05/04/2003 2:38 PM

Re:Stone of Scone, Didaktikos?

Date Posted:21/01/2010 6:37 PMCopy HTML

Reply to Glad-to be out
 Hi Eric,

Ezekiel 21 verse 27. Brilliant. I have the following note in my Bible from the 'good ol' days', -The throne went from the Middle East to Ireland, Ireland to Scotland, Scotland to England, thus fulfilling the prophecy.

After reading the whole chapter, I am amazed, no, saddened by the way we (GRCers) were so gullible, naive and able to be misled so mightily by the twits that run the whole show.

We so wanted to belong and believe, that we believed anything the men in position threw at us.

I would welcome anyone's educated opinion on the chapter and verse.

Cheers,

Glad

 


(Message edited by Glad-to be out On 19/01/2010 22:33:46)


Sorry Glad, have been up in the Galilee for the last four days where it has got down to -9 . Anyway. These days when I come to a piece of text, I consult the original language text and go from there.. However I am in a full schedule for the next week here in Israel so will leave it to Ian and Brolga to help you along .. But in leaving you I can only warn you that 99% of what the revivalists preach and push down their adherents throats to feed on is heretical rubbish. Hence the need for a website such a pleaseconsider to rescue folk such as yourself. Look to be quite honest a simple concordance such as Strong's is way outside the hermenutical ( ie Biblical iinterpretive ) skills of the entire Revivalist leadership so you are not going to get any sound doctrine from ill informed, untrained and unqualified revivalist pastoral leaders.. Jesus called such persons as "blind leaders of the blind" and really if they can be "christian" then I guess a good descriptor is that of a "baby" and I have never seen a baby with any skills in being able to feed other babies little alone being able to feed themselves.. anyway please forgive me for now and I will leave you with Ian and Ralph to guide you along..

much blessings to you
Eric 
Didaktikon Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #14
  • Rank:Forum Oracle
  • Score:62130
  • Posts:2958
  • From:Australia
  • Register:29/08/2007 7:54 AM

Re:Stone of Scone, Didaktikos?

Date Posted:23/01/2010 4:14 AMCopy HTML

Hi-yo, Glad-o.

Well, given Eric's absence I guess you'll just have to make do with "second best" when it comes to exegetical rigor, by putting up with the insights of little ol' me


So, without further ado, let's consider Ezekiel 21:27.

The King James Version (KJV), which bases its translation on the Hebrew rather than the Greek Old Testament (i.e. the LXX), puts things thus:

I will overturn, overturn, overturn, it: and it shall be no more, until he come whose right it is; and I will give it him.

The Hebrew Masoretic Text (MT) has:

עַוָּה עַוָּה עַוָּה אֲשִׂימֶנָּה גַּם־זֹאת לֹא הָיָה עַד־בֹּא אֲשֶׁר־לֹו הַמִּשְׁפָּט וּנְתַתִּיו׃

My own translation (after considering both the MT and the LXX) is:

I will make it a total ruin! (The crown) will not be restored until the One arrives to whom I have assigned judgment; to him alone I will give it.

The translators of the KJV understood the Hebrew word, עַוָּה to mean "overturn", but in the sense of destruction. The MT repeats the word thrice, which is the Hebrew way of expressing the sense of complete destruction, hence my choice of "total ruin". I've also added the words, "the crown" to my translation, in brackets, where the Hebrew text uses a pronominal suffix (i.e. "it"). Because the verb to which the suffix is affixed (i.e. "make") is feminine, it's antecedent is the feminine gender "turban/crown" mentioned in the previous verse. Jerusalem to be made a total ruin, with David's throne to be vacant until God installs the Messiah upon it. Such is the immediate literary context of our passage, and if I might be so blunt, hardly supportive of the BI fable that the Sovereign of England is David's heir!

So from whence did the truly bizarre idea of the "stone" (of Scone) being "overturned" three times spring?! Easy answer: the wild imagination of certain fanatical BI theorists! Using a single English word drawn from an obscure verse in the KJV as their launching pad into a flight of sheer fantasy, these "kooks" have created a travelogue purporting to be the adventures of a chunk of rock!

Let me be perfectly clear on this score: the word
עַוָּה, means "ruin/destruction". That it's repeated thrice is simply the Hebrew convention for verbalising complete, or total, destruction. The very same verse clearly indicates that no-one is to sit on David's throne until God installs his Messiah there. Revivalist pastors sit up and take note (you who approach Scripture after precisely the same fashion as does Dan Brown).

Anyway, isn't it amazing what light a little learning in the original languages can shed on some dark and/or obscure theories?

Blessings,

Ian
email: didaktikon@gmail.com
Uncoolman Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #15
  • Rank:Poster Venti III
  • Score:10080
  • Posts:324
  • From:Unknown
  • Register:05/04/2003 2:38 PM

Re:Stone of Scone, Didaktikos?

Date Posted:13/02/2010 5:18 AMCopy HTML

Uncoolman Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #16
  • Rank:Poster Venti III
  • Score:10080
  • Posts:324
  • From:Unknown
  • Register:05/04/2003 2:38 PM

Re:Stone of Scone, Didaktikos?

Date Posted:13/02/2010 5:22 AMCopy HTML

Uncoolman Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #17
  • Rank:Poster Venti III
  • Score:10080
  • Posts:324
  • From:Unknown
  • Register:05/04/2003 2:38 PM

Re:Stone of Scone, Didaktikos?

Date Posted:13/02/2010 5:42 AMCopy HTML

Chaire Ianos Kletos Didaktikos !!! I'm back !!

The camel looks alright ( if you want to trade your wife in, 30 of these will guarantee a new replacement - no worries .
.)

As far as model of Jerusalem goes. Download pic ( right click - save as ...etc) and take a closer look at it and take your mind back to the day of "pentecost" and see what dominates the day and scene with the importance of the day being the feast of Shavuot and Ianos reflect on Acts 2:29 ?? You can see David's Tomb quite clearly in the upper left hand corner and yet "tradition" seems to place the so called "upper room" on this SAME spot !! ( as I have read somewhere !! ). Of course the Romans must have gone real ballistic on the whole city and not just the Temple alone !! But anyway give me a few weeks to put pen to paper focusing on the Geographical considerations.. The next post is an actual photo of the southern wall today !! do download likewise

blessings

Eric
Uncoolman Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #18
  • Rank:Poster Venti III
  • Score:10080
  • Posts:324
  • From:Unknown
  • Register:05/04/2003 2:38 PM

Re:Stone of Scone, Didaktikos?

Date Posted:13/02/2010 5:46 AMCopy HTML

Uncoolman Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #19
  • Rank:Poster Venti III
  • Score:10080
  • Posts:324
  • From:Unknown
  • Register:05/04/2003 2:38 PM

Re:Stone of Scone, Didaktikos?

Date Posted:13/02/2010 5:49 AMCopy HTML

Uncoolman Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #20
  • Rank:Poster Venti III
  • Score:10080
  • Posts:324
  • From:Unknown
  • Register:05/04/2003 2:38 PM

Re:Stone of Scone, Didaktikos?

Date Posted:13/02/2010 6:33 AMCopy HTML

Just in case anyone gets confused:




Uncoolman Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #21
  • Rank:Poster Venti III
  • Score:10080
  • Posts:324
  • From:Unknown
  • Register:05/04/2003 2:38 PM

Re:Stone of Scone, Didaktikos?

Date Posted:13/02/2010 6:36 AMCopy HTML

Reply to brolga

Whilst "googleing" for Mt Moriah, I found this from an article regarding the temple mount and in the light of Revivalistic British Israel thinking, thought was rather interesting.

Wasn't it the "Jacob" stone to been found in the Corination chair at Westminister, according to the Revs ? ;

Dome of The Rock - Jerusalem Old City
It is the site where Abraham prepared to sacrifice his son Isaac.
Jacob, son of Isaac, gathered stone from this same site, and using this stone as a pillow spent the night sleeping upon the rock. Upon waking from a stunning visionary dream, Jacob anointed the stone pillow with oil he had received from heaven and the stone then sank deep into the earth, to become the foundation stone of the Great Temple built by Solomon.

Walking Into The Wall






spitchips Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #22
  • Rank:Rookier III
  • Score:2050
  • Posts:98
  • From:Australia
  • Register:25/10/2008 4:59 AM

Re:Stone of Scone, Didaktikos?

Date Posted:20/02/2010 9:57 AMCopy HTML

Hey Epi

The wisdom of hindsight!! I revel in it. I count now not wasted the naughty asides to my friends as we watched for the umpteenth time a slide on BI or pyramids or numerics!!! I remember calling out loudly (when asked who this man was, with the staff, holding back the waters) "Charlton Heston" .... sorry Moses. Anything for a laugh and to rouse those napping around me!!

I also remember a phrase in the spiritual gifts ... Dr Spooner himself could not have done better. "Sody and Bowl" ...... (body and soul). The silent laughter crept along the row.

So good to be out, so good to be gone, so good to be.

Chips
Uncoolman Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #23
  • Rank:Poster Venti III
  • Score:10080
  • Posts:324
  • From:Unknown
  • Register:05/04/2003 2:38 PM

Re:Stone of Scone, Didaktikos?

Date Posted:21/02/2010 3:45 AMCopy HTML

Reply to Episkopeo

Hi Metanoian,

Your pictures are very interesting and I look forward to hearing more of your time in the Mid East. 

(Wasn't it the "Jacob" stone to be found in the Coronation chair at Westminister, according to the Revs) 

Not only according to the Revs.  Much of  RCI founding "pastor" Lloyd's material on BI came from the official British Israel World Federation.  This organisation was officially brought together in 1919 by its proponents in the British Isles and Dominions - Aust, NZ, Sth Africa, Canada and USA and probably other countries with the help of the KJV wording only and some Irish folklore.  An interesting theory, however only a theory and one the Revivalists through Lloyd have latched on to and in the past used quite successfully as an unusual aside to their unusual salvation message.  Not forgetting numerics and the pyramid to add further "proofs" to their message.

Epi


Hi Epi,

Ianos made an interesting remark that the Stone of Scone was in fact a Scottish sandstone. Unfortunately the stones that are found in Israel except for the Negev are limestone.. Especially at Bethel ( and Judea and Samaria ) and all areas that are on the mountain areas.. Doesn't say much for RCI and their understanding of the lithology of the Middle East.

Actually at the moment I am trundling my way through and unpacking a really good book that Ian might be well familiar with. It is called "Method in Theology" by Bernard Lonergan.. This work deals with exploring the operations that Theologians do in order to do theology scientifically. ( Yes indeed Theology is a science.)  An important key in developing Theology is the methodology one uses in putting together data.. Now if those Niddy Wits that lead the RCI had cared enough to search out their data objectively then BI would be out the door real quick. But Lloyd Longfield unfortunately is trying to objectify nonsense because his original source and supply of data is utter bunk..  Thus you cannot put any weight on their doctrine at all. See Epi there is no heuristic method because the RCI fail miserably in gaining and investigating any worthwhile data in the first place. Without throwing another Kudo at Ian, I find Ian's essays an example to myself because Ian sources his data well. Oh but if only the Rev mob would do likewise.

blessings

Eric

ps will say more of Israel  but it might be easier at this stage to ask a question or two about Israel..
RCI prophesies
Copyright © 2000-2019 Aimoo Free Forum All rights reserved.