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Date Posted:29/06/2008 4:40 AMCopy HTML

Hello All,


I have been looking into the functions and aspects of the Spirit of a man, the soul of a man and the body.


It has been a subject that after 14 years in RCI I have found that I do not have a complete appreciation over.


So I have trawled internet articles on this subject and most of the articles on this seem to divide the triune nature of men as follows:


Spirit:


The functions of conscience, intuition and communion with God.


Soul: Functions like emotion, volition, rational thinking, thought, imagination, skills etc..


Body: Well this our vehicle and house.


Most of the articles also implied that when we are born again and receive the Holy Spirit, this revives our spirit, and as we begin to allow the new revived spirit/Spirit to control the functions of our souls, then our souls also become restored, and this sanctifies our souls and bodies to the Lord.  The articles also say that God is triune in nature, ie: Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and then as we are created in his image, so we too are triune created beings, spirit, soul and body.


Other parts of a man are also the heart of man, that seems to have the functions of the soul as well as the conscience. 


The impact this has had on me is that if i can correctly divide between spirit soul and body, then I can understand and apply scripture in a more active way, rather than head knowledge alone.  This also has impacted me in the form of realizing more about spiritual warfare. 


I am still trying to get my head around this whole subject, but have found it to be really worthwhile.


Have any of you readers also looked into this? 


Please reply with your pearls of wisdom, your thoughts and opinions, as I would hope that in the multitude of counsellors therein is wisom.


God bless you all,


Paul Miles aka misterkilometres.

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Re:Spirit, Soul and Body - What is the difference?

Date Posted:29/06/2008 5:24 AMCopy HTML

Hi, Paul.

The potision that you apparently espouse, above, is known (theologically) as the Trichotomist view. You may be interested to discover that it owes more to Neo-Platonic Greek philosophy than it does to strictly Christian teaching. I would suggest that you do some study into the Dichotomist view, the historical Christian position, which views humanity as an essential unity albeit one composed of both body and soul/spirit.

Blessings,

Ian
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Re:Spirit, Soul and Body - What is the difference?

Date Posted:29/06/2008 11:04 AMCopy HTML

Thanks Ian,

I have just had a great talk with our assistant minister tonight and he also has suggested that I do not hold to the trichotomist view but directed me to Romans 6 and advised to keep it to flesh and spirit.  Also confirmed from a senior vestry member and my home group leader that dichotomist view is the better way to view this subject.  I will do some further investigation on this over the next week.

Does anyone else have anything to add?
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Re:Spirit, Soul and Body - What is the difference?

Date Posted:30/06/2008 5:36 AMCopy HTML

Hi, Paul.

I'm not really sure what you're expecting other people to be able to add to this discussion. Uninformed and subjective personal opinions? You see, the subject that you've raised directly relates to the theological subset of anthropology--the study of humanity from the perspective of God. Speaking personally, I'm not convinced that there are very many people "out-there" in Ex-Revivalist Aimoo land who've studied the matter in sufficient detail to be able to offer an informed opinion, one way or the other, in the first place. Theology, after all, has never been the strength (or consuming interest) of Revivalists.

Did you know that the trichotomist position on the nature of humanity is the one that is favoured by Pentecostals, and  by heretical Christian abberations more generally? And do you understand why this is the case?

My advice to you is this: it would be preferable for you to ask theological/doctrinal questions of your Anglican clergy, in preference to former Revivalists. The former are far better equipped to provide you with the correct answers than are the latter (a very few excluded), which are, of course, the answers that you need.

Blessings,

Ian

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Re:Spirit, Soul and Body - What is the difference?

Date Posted:02/07/2008 3:48 AMCopy HTML

 Ian,

A quick look into that and bingo - I have to make a descision.

by Daniel M. Brown

1 Corinthians 14 is one of the most popular chapters in the Bible for Charismatics. Practically every Charismatic author that writes anything on the gifts of the Holy Spirit will refer to this chapter. Ironically, 1 Corinthians 14 is one of the strongest rebuttals against the modern Charismatic teaching on tongues, but Charismatics are completely oblivious to this fact because they read the chapter with a trichotomous mindset. In a nutshell, this argument against Charismatic tongues goes as follows:

  1. No Charismatic claims to understand the tongues-language that he speaks.
  2. 1 Corinthians 14 plainly teaches that the Biblical tongues-speaker understood the words uttered from his own lips.
  3. Therefore, the modern Charismatic phenomenon of tongues has nothing to do with Biblical tongues.

When a Charismatic reads 1 Cor 14:14, “my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful,” he reads this to mean that his spirit utters words which is own mind does not understand. Based on a trichotomy or tri-partite view of man, he claims that his spirit speaks a heavenly language that bypasses the mental understanding of his soul. However, a careful study of the scriptures concerning spirit and soul reveals that the Bible does not teach such a concept. This concept of trichotomy is rooted in Greek philosophy, not Biblical doctrine. Although common to Gnosticism and other mystery religions, the Bible knows no such Charismatic concept of edification apart from understanding. Indeed the Bible often uses spirit and soul interchangeably. Scriptures showing thought and cognitive understanding in one’s spirit are inescapable. See Matt 26:41, Mk 2:8, Lk 1:46-47, Acts 17:16, 1 Cor 2:11, 1 Pet 3:3-5.

Further, the Charismatic interprets the word “mysteries” in 1 Cor 14:2 to mean unintelligible utterances, or tongues, from his own lips. However, the Bible never uses the word “musterion” in such a manner. The entire New Testament defines “mystery” as the revelation of the gospel of Christ which was hidden is ages past but is now revealed to His saints. See Matt 13:10, Mk 4:11, Lk 8:10, Rom 11:25, Rom 16:25-27, 1 Cor 2:7, 1 Cor 15:51, Eph 3:2-6, Col 1:25-27. Jesus and Paul clearly use the word “mystery” in a completely different sense than the way Charismatics use it today. Mystery was revelational truth, hidden in the past, but now revealed and understood. Victor Budgen writes in his excellent book,1 “Far from being something hidden or concealed, a ‘mystery’ is a gloriously ‘open secret’ which we ourselves would never have discovered had not God revealed it.” Clearly, if one does not understand the mysteries of which Paul speaks, he cannot be called a Christian!

Dichotomy versus Trichotomy

Brian Onken astutely observes, in his excellent paper on the dangers of trichotomy,2 that the trichotomous mindset leads to a denigration of the intellect and of rigorous doctrinal study. In fact, one of most commonly heard complaints of ex-charismatics is that their Charismatic church had become so anti-intellectual and anti-doctrine that they could no longer in good conscience subject their children to such mindlessness. I personally had a Charismatic pastor up in Connecticut that would tell me, “Dan, your problem is that you worship the Father, Son, and Holy Scriptures! You need to spend less time reading and more time learning to operate in the Spirit.” Anti-intellectualism runs rampant in Charismaticism and is a direct result of trichotomy. Some of the strongest proponents of trichotomy, including Watchman Nee and Andrew Murray, are widely read by Charismatics. Trichotomist authors quite blatantly claim that “soul power,” meaning the power of the intellect, hinders true spirituality. And the only way to live a holy spiritual life is to crucify the flesh and the soul life. Such views are more akin to Gnosticism than they are to a Biblical, Calvinistic, optimistic, postmillennial world view. Reformed folk understand that sin has affected all parts of man, not just his flesh and mind, and that Christ’s resurrection life applies to the total man, not just his spirit. Louis Berkhof observes that, for most of history, the church held to a dichotomy view of man, particularly from Augustine on.3 The trichotomy view saw a revival in the nineteenth century and, not surprisingly, the Pentecostal/Charismatic revival fell right on the heels of it.

Trichotomy also has a strong effect in evangelical denominations who would not normally call themselves Charismatic, particularly the more liberal denominations who have little to no emphasis on the historic creeds and confessions. Southern Baptists come to mind here. Although not calling themselves Charismatic, there is no doubt a strong Charismatic influence in the SBC and many Southern Baptists look like Charismatics without the speaking in tongues. When trying to correct some doctrinal error with such folks, we’ve often heard statements like, “Well, I hear what you’re saying but I’ll just go home and pray and see what the Holy Spirit says to me about these scriptures.” In spite of an often outward display of humility when saying such things, trichotomy has given them an excuse to reject God-ordained church authority and the historic creeds of the church fathers. Trichotomy breeds a hyper-independence and individualistic mindset that is blind to the covenantal and corporate aspects of the Holy Spirit.

In contradistinction to trichotomy, it is Christ Himself, not the Trinitarian Godhead, that shows us what the ideal spiritual man looks like. Christ was the perfect sinless Israelite fulfilling all the requirements of the Law, the true Seed of Abraham through whom all nations are blessed, the eternal heir of David’s throne, who has a fully resurrected body that eats and drinks with His saints. It is this, “One Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of His Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father; by whom all things were made; who for us and for our salvation came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man;”4 it is this Christ, who is both God and Man, who was raised from the dead to be seated on His throne at the right hand of God. And just as the Son submitted His entire dichotomous Being to the Father and His entire dichotomous Being was raised from the dead, so we submit our entire beings to Christ in the hope of our mortal bodies being resurrected at His second coming, 1 Cor 15:20-28, 1 Th 4:13-17. We avoid the error of the Apollinarians, yet we also avoid the error of the Nestorians by neither denying nor confusing Christ’s Divinity and His Humanity.5

Numerous reformed authors have dealt with the arguments for dichotomy and trichotomy (as well as monism). So, we’ll only briefly review the arguments here. Dichotomy, or the view that man is a unity of body and soul, or body and spirit, sees material and immaterial parts joined together in man. Spirit and soul are used interchangeably for the same immaterial element in man but from different points of view. A few scriptures supporting dichotomy include; Gen 2:7, Job 32:8, Job 33:4, Eccl 12:7, Is 10:18, and Matt 10:28. Sometimes the scriptures speak of a dichotomy of body and soul, as in Matt 6:25 and Matt 10:28, and other times of a dichotomy of body and spirit, as in Eccl 12:7, 1 Cor 5:3-5, 1 Cor 7:34. Death is referred to as giving up the soul, as in Gen 35:18, 1 Kg 17:21, Acts 15:26, and as giving up the spirit, as in Ps 31:5, Lk 23:46, Acts 7:59. The immaterial part that survives death is referred to as the soul, as in Rev 6:9, Rev 20:4 and as the spirit, as in Heb 12:23, 1 Pet 3:19. The soul communes with God in Jam 1:21 and Heb 6:19 and the spirit communes with God in Rom 8:16 and 1 Cor 6:20. 2 Cor 7:1 speaks of sin affecting flesh and spirit and Eph 2:3 speaks of sin affecting flesh and mind. The dichotomy present in the scriptures is obvious, but so is the interchangeable use of soul and spirit. John Calvin clearly demonstrates the dichotomous view when he writes:

Moreover, there can be no question that man consists of a body and a soul; meaning by soul, an immortal though created essence, which is his nobler part. Sometimes he is called a spirit. But though the two terms, while they are used together, differ in their meaning, still when spirit is used by itself it is equivalent to soul.6

Likewise, Charles Hodge defends the traditional dichotomy view in his second volume:

This doctrine of a threefold constitution of man being adopted by Plato, was introduced partially into the early Church, but soon came to be regarded as dangerous, if not heretical. Its being held by the Gnostics that the pneuma in man was a part of the divine essence, and incapable of sin; and by the Apollinarians that Christ had only a human soma and psuche, but not a human pneuma, the Church rejected the doctrine that the psuche and pneuma were distinct substances, since upon it those heresies were founded. In later times the Semi-Pelagians taught that the soul and body, but not the spirit in man were the subjects of original sin. All Protestants, Lutherans and Reformed, were, therefore, the more zealous in maintaining that the soul and spirit, psuche and pneuma, are one and the same substance and essence. And this, as before remarked, has been the common doctrine of the Church.7

The two primary scriptures used to support trichotomy (the view that man consists of three parts; spirit, soul, and body) are 1 Thess 5:23 and Heb 4:12. But the first cannot be used to support trichotomy any more than Mk 12:30 can be used to support tetrachotomy. The second passage does not say “dividing between” but “to division of.” It is talking of the power of God’s word to pierce to the deepest and remotest parts of man, both his immaterial and material parts. It speaks of “soul and spirit” in the same manner that it speaks of “thoughts and intents of the heart,” two views of the same thing. So neither of these passages provide clear support for trichotomy, and of course these must be interpreted in light of the rest of scripture which gives overwhelming evidence for dichotomy.



Pretty easy descision once you look into it further......


Thanks,


misterkilometres.


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Re:Spirit, Soul and Body - What is the difference?

Date Posted:02/07/2008 10:12 AMCopy HTML

Mr K,

There you have it. Surprising what an open mind, a little learning, and some theological reflection will bring, hey?

Blessings,

Ian
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Re:Spirit, Soul and Body - What is the difference?

Date Posted:02/07/2008 10:35 PMCopy HTML

Ian

I read the full article at http://www.the-highway.com/tricho-charis_Brown.html, and the dichotomy vs trichotomy stuff certainly makes sense. I even had an "aha" moment of appreciating another reason why so many Revers and ex-Revers think that using our minds to come to grips with what the Holy Spirit teaches through scripture is somehow less "spiritual" than personal "touches" from the Holy Spirit.

But ... I found Brown's arguments that "1 Corinthians 14 plainly teaches that the Biblical tongues-speaker understood the words uttered from his own lips" were pretty unconvincing. When I read the scriptures he uses in a couple of non-KJV translations, his interpretation doesn't seem to follow at all. Is Brown's perspective what comes through when the passages are read in the koine Greek?

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Re:Spirit, Soul and Body - What is the difference?

Date Posted:03/07/2008 1:41 AMCopy HTML

Hi, Talmid.

But ... I found Brown's arguments that "1 Corinthians 14 plainly teaches that the Biblical tongues-speaker understood the words uttered from his own lips" were pretty unconvincing.  When I read the scriptures he uses in a couple of non-KJV translations, his interpretation doesn't seem to follow at all. Is Brown's perspective  what comes  through  when the passages are read in the koine Greek?

Short answer? Nope. It seems to me that in his haste to distance himself from all things 'Pentecostal', the author of that small piece has well and truly overstated the case, vis. Paul's teaching on the nature of 'tongues'. This foible aside, the remainder of his conclusions are pretty much "on-the-money".

Blessings,

Ian
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Re:Spirit, Soul and Body - What is the difference?

Date Posted:03/07/2008 1:45 AMCopy HTML

Hi, Ralph.

Who cares anymore. Just lock ones self in a closet and pray, I say.

Unacceptable 'cop-out', I'm afraid. Scripture is very clear that there is a doctrinal substance to the Christian faith, one which leads to a correct appreciation of our human nature, and how such influences our relationship with God through Christ. Your proposed solution isn't a solution, as it simply propagates wilful ignorance. It's also precisely the same 'solution' I hear from Revivalist pastors time-and-again on a wide range of issues and doctrinal teachings.

Blessings,

Ian
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Re:Spirit, Soul and Body - What is the difference?

Date Posted:03/07/2008 3:25 AMCopy HTML

 Ian & Talmid,

Can I have a little more discussion on the issue of:

But ... I found Brown's arguments that "1 Corinthians 14 plainly teaches that the Biblical tongues-speaker understood the words uttered from his own lips" were pretty unconvincing.  When I read the scriptures he uses in a couple of non-KJV translations, his interpretation doesn't seem to follow at all. Is Brown's perspective  what comes  through  when the passages are read in the koine Greek?

Short answer? Nope. It seems to me that in his haste to distance himself from all things 'Pentecostal', the author of that small piece has well and truly overstated the case, vis. Paul's teaching on the nature of 'tongues'. This foible aside, the remainder of his conclusions are pretty much "on-the-money".

A little more about the foible?  ( Not that I won't use my brain and check out other reliable sources of information - but more for the sake of this thread being a repository for the discussion at hand..) ( maybe I shouldn't use the term repository around here :))

Regards Mr K
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Re:Spirit, Soul and Body - What is the difference?

Date Posted:03/07/2008 3:33 AMCopy HTML

to all.. but mostly e aware lol...

you go away for awhile, an look in to let everyone know your still alive an well and see how everythings doing and find nothing has changed.
ian is still giving a EDUCATED look at what the bible teaches, while people who have only just come out of a "church" that blatently teaches a faulse doctrine who are still sruggling with the realities of the church they have either come from, or are still in- get mad at him
ian has always said, if you want to have an intellegent discussion, he is ready,willing, and able. if all you do is repeat the rci/rf lies, with no scriptual back up and personal insults... you get ian at his most obnoxious
just because you dont like how he says something doesnt mean you shouldnt listen. if you dont think he is right...get out your bible and look what it says on the subject.
i have to say everytime i have done this, inveriably ian has been spot on- but maybe you will read something different, and can bring forth a decent well thought out argumet

moth if that eva happens let me know so i can see it for myself lol
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Re:Spirit, Soul and Body - What is the difference?

Date Posted:03/07/2008 3:35 AMCopy HTML

Good morning, Paul.

Short answer? Nope. It seems to me that in his haste to distance himself from all things 'Pentecostal', the author of that small piece has well and truly overstated the case, vis. Paul's teaching on the nature of 'tongues'. This foible aside, the remainder of his conclusions are pretty much "on-the-money".

A little more about the foible?  ( Not that I won't use my brain and check out other reliable sources of information - but more for the sake of this thread being a repository for the discussion at hand..) ( maybe I shouldn't use the term repository around here :))

What's to say? The chap who wrote that piece clearly was thoroughly anti-Pentecostal/Charismatic in his outlook; consequently, he attempted to use the biblical teaching on dichotomy to disprove more than simply the fact that the Pentecostal penchant for trichotomy invariably leads them astray. In short, he was correct about the substance of dichotomy, but his application of the teaching WRT the particulars of 1 Corinthians 14 was incorrect.

Blessings,

Ian

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Re:Spirit, Soul and Body - What is the difference?

Date Posted:03/07/2008 8:03 AMCopy HTML

Hi, Break Free.

First up, how have you been travelling of late?

if all you do is repeat the rci/rf lies, with no scriptual back up and personal insults... you get ian at his most obnoxious

"At his most obnoxious?!" Hang on a second, I resemble that remark! Surprised

God bless,

Ian
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Re:Spirit, Soul and Body - What is the difference?

Date Posted:03/07/2008 8:44 AMCopy HTML

Hi, Ralph.

Maybe it is a cop out in your eyes, but I have expressed the frustration I am experiencing as I try to get a handle on so many different versions of Bible formula.

The 'cop-out' comment of mine related to the statement of yours that inferred sitting alone in a room praying somehow renders sustained inquiry into doctrine unnecessary. Such a statement was, is, and will continue to be a 'cop-out'.

Like you, many have the intellectual capacity to learn and comprehend things skillfully and easily and it seems to come as a God-given ability. Something that I have never been able to do, even at school age. Though I did pass my subjects, if somewhat, only just.


Sure, but so? One's academic/intellectual capacity wasn't and isn't the issue that I raised with you in my previous response.


It seems like most that come from Revival are out because they did not meet the criteria of certain “learned” gentleman that are skillful in deception. These people like me have really nowhere to turn when it comes to “Academic disability” and can only draw on a very limited few sources, such as your acquired knowledge in scripture to make a bit of sense of it all.


And there's absolutely nothing wrong with anyone following such an approach. The truth be told, I continue to do so after a fashion, myself. But one doesn't need to be 'academic' to be a Christian; however, one does need to be discerning. Discernment is tempered by application, which is further tempered by personal study and by personal prayer.


Outside of that, one can only have a simple faith in God and his word and if I am not displaying more ignorance, the Holy Spirit may lead one into that which he is called.


I think too many people erroneously believe that the 'inspiration' of the Holy Spirit somehow renders the requirement for personal 'perspiration' null and void. It doesn't. God works in tandem with each and every one of us; he does his part, we must do ours. Further, 'aha' moments generally result more from consistent and diligent searching into Scripture (the "study to show yourself approved by God" bit), than they do from out-of-the-blue epiphanies. This remains a simple fact of the Christian life. It is also one of the points that underpins the current dichotomist versus trichotomist discussion.


And finally...


Don’t be too responsive to Ian, his knowledge and learning hasn’t come with little price. It takes years of hard work to achieve such as he has. I guess I would feel justified a little boasting myself.

But I wasn't boasting, Ralph, I was stating a simple fact. Not all opinions are equal, and neither do all opinions share in any form of merit. Revivalists and former-Revivalists alike generally suffer from an all too misplaced sense of personal 'smugness' when it comes to understanding the Word of God. When a Revivalist, they believe they understood Scripture better than all other professing Christians. On becoming a former-Revivalist, time is needed to 'prune' away the junk thinking and Revivalist nonsense.

My pearls of wisdom for the day!

 

Blessings,


 

Ian


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Re:Spirit, Soul and Body - What is the difference?

Date Posted:03/07/2008 10:54 PMCopy HTML

Brolga, Epi,

Ian's covered what I was wanting to say to explain my reference to using one's mind (together with the rest of our being) to worship God. Forrest Gump, Albert Einstein, a nine-year old, a 49-year old, a roustabout, a stock broker and a uni-level history professor would bring different capabilities, inclinations and *skills* to bear on the task, and if they were all diligent with what they had I believe God would be well-pleased with them all.

I believe we need to worship (and I include *serve* our fellow man) with our whole being, *including* our minds.
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Re:Spirit, Soul and Body - What is the difference?

Date Posted:04/07/2008 2:33 AMCopy HTML

Reply to Didaktikon (03/07/2008 02:03:07)


hi ian, i have been great, i really feel i have moved forward and healed.
i have been attending a bible study group, which has been good/interesting, i know it isnt church and i know that it isnt nesissarily the best place for me to be, but it has been interesting seeing how my belifes/understanding of the bible match up with other people who have come from different backgrounds.

i have been seriously concidering finding a church... i know i want an old established traditional church, i think your right bout wanting a church that has been dealing with the hard questions (and the easy ones) for centuries as opposed to a few years, but idont know which one yet.... i also still dont know if i have the ability to discern wether a church is healthy or not, but im praying for gods guidence on that.

i have found that the more rci/rf doctrines an attitudes i have shaken off, the beter i feel and the more secure in my belifes in god, i am not a judgmental person by nature but having had their intolerance instilled in me for most of my life some things were hard to shake off.

i am really happy in my life, i adore my children, have been blessed with truly wonderful friends who have been there for me through everything, and love my job.

just turned 30 and find myself excited for the future, im not afraid of getting old and insted of feeling like i havent achieved everything i wanted to by 30, i feel like im coming into my own. this has to be the best time of my life so far Smile


if all you do is repeat the rci/rf lies, with no scriptual back up and personal insults... you get ian at his most obnoxious

"At his most obnoxious?!" Hang on a second, I resemble that remark! Surprised


lol, sometimes i dont know how you have the patience to deal with some of us, and for all that some people have issuse with how you deliver what you have to say, we are so lucky that you are still here, confronting us, pushing us and educating us and answering our sometimes stupid questions



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Re:Spirit, Soul and Body - What is the difference?

Date Posted:04/07/2008 3:55 AMCopy HTML

Hi Epi,

'though I don't mention it when I post here, I do treasure and 'recommend' 'closet' prayer and 'closet prayer moments' as vital to my Spiritual journey. (How can I have a relationship with God if I'm not communicating with him, I say.)
 
I might say that I find humility and an attitude of listening to God are vital in both prayer and reading scripture. I'm sure you and most (all?) here realise that, but it's all too rarely emphasised in my RCI/RF experience. (I once preached on prayer as communication with God and therefore it needs to be 2-way to be truly fruitful.) With that attitude I find studying scripture a joy; without that attitude it's like chomping on dry 5-day old bread - an unpleasnt experience I want to avoid.
The evidence for Mann-made global warming is unequivocal.
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Re:Spirit, Soul and Body - What is the difference?

Date Posted:04/07/2008 2:08 PMCopy HTML

Hiya, BF.

hi ian, i have been great, i really feel i have moved forward and healed.

Cool, and good to hear.

i have been attending a bible study group, which has been good/interesting, i know it isnt church and i know that it isnt nesissarily the best place for me to be, but it has been interesting seeing how my belifes/understanding of the bible match up with other people who have come from different backgrounds.

Sure. And not all Bible study groups are breeding grounds for schism, heterodoxy and heresy in spite of the fact that many of them are. Surprised

i have been seriously concidering finding a church... i know i want an old established traditional church, i think your right bout wanting a church that has been dealing with the hard questions (and the easy ones) for centuries as opposed to a few years, but idont know which one yet.... i also still dont know if i have the ability to discern wether a church is healthy or not, but im praying for gods guidence on that.

Also cool. The general rule of thumb (if there is such a thing), is that the well established, main-line (and hence, 'main-stream') denominations are the safest bet. I'm a big fan of the Reformation-era Protestant groups myself: Anglican, Presbyterian, Lutheran and (Baptist Union-type) Baptists, but don't write off the Roman Catholics or even the national Orthodox. It's simply that many of their customs might seem strangely odd when you don't understand their histories and cultures.

i have found that the more rci/rf doctrines an attitudes i have shaken off, the beter i feel and the more secure in my belifes in god, i am not a judgmental person by nature but having had their intolerance instilled in me for most of my life some things were hard to shake off.

'Tolerance' is actually a rather interesting word. Once upon a time it invoked a negative perception: to 'tolerate' something was to put up with what one knew to be wrong, distateful or unpleasant. Nowadays, the word seems to mean just the opposite: now it invokes images of being broad-minded, welcoming and inclusive!

i am really happy in my life, i adore my children, have been blessed with truly wonderful friends who have been there for me through everything, and love my job.

It sounds as if you are truly fortunate enough to be blessed with the 'package-deal'. You clearly are thankful, so good for you!

just turned 30 and find myself excited for the future, im not afraid of getting old and insted of feeling like i havent achieved everything i wanted to by 30, i feel like im coming into my own. this has to be the best time of my life so far Smile

Only 30, huh? Well I recently turned 40 (with every intent of fostering a debonair and somewhat distinguished air), but due to a rather unfortunate ceries of circumstances involving a mountain bike, speed, a stock gate and a distinct lack of light, suddenly found myself in hospital wired up to machines that go 'ping'! And the very worse thing is that after about 5 weeks of complete inactivity, the odd medical procedure or two, and a veritable cocktail of drugs, I now find myself with very little muscle tone, slightly grayer hair and wobbly knees after walking a scant 100 m! Man do I feel old!

But kudos to you, m'dear, now that you've entered the realm of the 30-something, uber-sophisticated and thoroughly urbane girls-around-town!

lol, sometimes i dont know how you have the patience to deal with some of us, and for all that some people have issuse with how you deliver what you have to say, we are so lucky that you are still here, confronting us, pushing us and educating us and answering our sometimes stupid questions.

Yeah, well I don't know how it is that I manage to deal with you lot either! I guess it's a gift!

Blessings,

Ian

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Re:Spirit, Soul and Body - What is the difference?

Date Posted:04/07/2008 4:00 PMCopy HTML

http://www.catholicculture.org/library/dictionary/index.cfm?id=36932


TRICHOTOMY

Literally anything that has three parts. In the Bible, St. Paul's doctrine about the threefold division in the human beings, composed of body (soma), soul (psyche) and spirit (pneuma). The body is the living organism, the soul is the rational intellect and will, and the spirit is that innermost part of one's being where the Spirit of God abides.


All items in this dictionary are from Fr. John Hardon's Modern Catholic Dictionary, © Eternal Life. Used with permission.




blessings
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Re:Spirit, Soul and Body - What is the difference?

Date Posted:05/07/2008 8:31 AMCopy HTML

Guys, I am not looking for a fight here but I would like to invite Ian to put on his hermeneutical cap here in order to draw a little objective exegeses out of him...

Given that both the greek words Psuche ( feminine ) and Pneumatos ( neuter ) as we can well see, are two completely different words, I would like to draw Ian's attention to the well known HEBREWS 4:12.

" For the word of God ( genitive ) is living and effective and sharper than every double eged sword and penetrating as far the ( article understood) division of soul ( pshuches) and spirit ( pneumatos ), both of Joints and marrow, and able to discern the thoughts and insights of the heart ( Kardias )"

Now correct me please but me thinks the writer of Hebrews is referring to the word enabled discernment between that of the human soul and that of the Spirit of God because again the greek word for division ( page 633 Bauer's ) "MERISMOS" - separation ... is pointing to the Word being able to separate from what is of the human soul or soulish and that which is of or from the Spirit of God.  If such being the case, then what we have here is that prior to being " born from above/again ". The human condition is that of a duality, but after being " born from above/again" the new human condition is that of a triality with the body + soul + Spirit of God equally to "being complete in him" ( Colossians 2:10)....

However I am open to hear what Dr.Thomason ThD thinketh and hast to sayeth...


blessings

Eric

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Re:Spirit, Soul and Body - What is the difference?

Date Posted:05/07/2008 9:30 AMCopy HTML

Hi, Eric.

Guys, I am not looking for a fight here but I would like to invite Ian to put on his hermeneutical cap here in order to draw a little objective exegeses out of him...

Sure, why not? The cap helps to cover my bald spot!

Given that both the greek words Psuche (feminine) and Pneumatos (neuter) as we can well see, are two completely different words, I would like to draw Ian's attention to the well known HEBREWS 4:12.

For starters, I think it's important to point out that the grammatical gender of the two words, along with the fact that their are two words, is of no real exegetical significance. They remain simply issues of vocabulary and grammar. With respect to the first point, as you know, with Greek gender is a matter of accidence, nothing more. And with respect to the second point, Scripture makes it abundently clear that the words "soul" and "spirit" ordinarily refer to the same thing: the non-material aspect of our human nature. You know the various "proof-texts", so there's no point in me attempting to list them, here.

Bear with me a little, as I'll touch on your proffered passage, Hebrews 4:12, momentarily.

"For the word of God (genitive) is living and effective and sharper than every double eged sword and penetrating as far the (article understood) division of soul (pshuches) and spirit (pneumatos), both of Joints and marrow, and able to discern the thoughts and insights of the heart (Kardias)"

Yep.

Now correct me please but me thinks the writer of Hebrews is referring to the word enabled discernment between that of the human soul and that of the Spirit of God because again the greek word for division (page 633 Bauer's ) "MERISMOS" - separation ... is pointing to the Word being able to separate from what is of the human soul or soulish and that which is of or from the Spirit of God. If such being the case, then what we have here is that prior to being " born from above/again ". The human condition is that of a duality, but after being " born from above/again" the new human condition is that of a triality with the body + soul + Spirit of God equally to "being complete in him" ( Colossians 2:10)....

Now, and with respect to the Hebrews passage that you directed our attention towards, remember that the context is determined by the author's parenetic intentions (which begin at 3:7), and not our own. In the present example, his intent was to touch on issues of both judgement (ie. WRT the Exodus generation) and rest. We Christians squarely face the same choices: "rest or wrath" as Trompf put matters so lucidly a few decades ago. And just as then, God's word remains a quite lethal weapon, given that it poses a judgement which is considerably more threatening than the double-edged sword faced by the Israelites! God's Word exposes the very intentions of the heart! Still further, the author of Hebrews both alludes to and quotes from Psalms 95:7b-11 in our extended passage, providing yet further context to the meaning he intended. As an aside, did you happen to notice that the predicates ascribed to the Word of God in verse 12b (diiknoumenos and kritikos) effectively convey the notion of an extreme power of penetration? In effect, then, the Word of God is able to reach into the deepest (and sometimes darkest) recesses of the human personality (see again, Psalms 95:10b), leaving us with an impression of total (and helpless) exposure before him. Nothing but nothing escapes God's scrutiny!

In short, I still see absolutely no evidence for the trichotomist position in this passage. I am, however, intrigued that your own perspective on the meaning of the text apparently leans towards the Orthodox doctrine of theosis. Was such intentional?

However I am open to hear what Dr.Thomason ThD thinketh and hast to sayeth...

Brother, whilst you're a little premature with the "doctor" bit, I do appreciate the sentiment.

Blessings, my friend.

Ian

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Re:Spirit, Soul and Body - What is the difference?

Date Posted:28/10/2008 2:09 AMCopy HTML

 Hello All,

Especially to the guests and observers who still attend charismatic churches such as RC/RF, United Pentecostals and AOG,

Please advise your belief on this important issue - what do you prescribe to?

For those in AOG churches, I found this info at:   http://pentecostalevangel.ag.org/Articles2006/4819_Nutshell.cfm

Humans live in bodies, have spirits, are souls.

Jesus called himself Son of Man more often than Son of God, emphasizing His identification with mankind (but also His deity).

There are two main views as to what the Bible teaches of the makeup of man: trichotomy (or “three parts”) and dichotomy (“two parts”).

The three-part view teaches that body, spirit and soul are three distinct parts of man.

The two-part view, which is more widely held, says the Bible basically reveals the human composition to be of material and immaterial parts. Genesis 2:7 seems to settle the issue very early in the Scriptures: “And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul” (KJV).

Adam’s body is inhabited and brought to life by the breath (or Spirit ... same word) of God. The breath of God yields the spirit of man. These two together compose a soul. Though soul is sometimes used interchangeably for spirit, it appears to represent all an individual is, with or without the body. (See Acts 27:37.)

The NIV captures the thrust of this when, in Luke 9:25, they use the word “self” instead of “soul” as in most versions: “What good is it for a man to gain the whole world, and yet lose or forfeit his very self?”


So if you are an AOG then you should be prescribing to the Dichotomous view - according to AOG...


How would that impact your beleif in tongues being the only sign of receiving the h/s?


For those of you who are UPC - what is your churches' official view on this?


Regards Mr K


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Re:Spirit, Soul and Body - What is the difference?

Date Posted:28/10/2008 9:29 AMCopy HTML

Hi, Paul.

One point, and one question. But first the point. Jesus' most popular self-reference was the eschatological title, the Son of Man. However, and contrary to your claim, he never referred to himself directly as, the Son of God (he accepted the designation when it was made by others, 'though).

Now the question. Just what are you hoping to achieve by "re-submitting" the Trichotomist/Dichotomist discussion to further review?

Blessings,

Ian

P.S. By the way, in using the "Son of Man" title, Jesus wasn't identifying with humanity. It was an oblique but pointed reference to his deity (have a closer look at the context from which it was drawn, Daniel 7:13 & 14).

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Re:Spirit, Soul and Body - What is the difference?

Date Posted:28/10/2008 9:46 PMCopy HTML

 Hello Ian,

On the Son of Man title:

That was just from the hyperlink from AOG, not from me.

I was wanting to show the AOG position on the subject.

I have also asked UPCI for their position on the subject and received the following response:

Paul,

I am guessing you are referring to the nature of mankind. Most people in the
UPCI would hold to a threefold makeup of man; spirit, soul, and body. Some
members hold to a dichotomy; material and immaterial. The United Pentecostal
Church has no official teaching on this doctrine.

I trust this helps. If I have missed your question, let me know and I will
do my best to answer it.

Sincerely,

Robin Johnston
Associate Editor

What was I hoping to acheive by resubmitting the discussion?

Well seeing that a few of the new members are from both AOG and UPC, I thought for their sakes and anyone who may be interested in knowing the different positions on the subject can have additional information.  After all this is a discussion forum, and in the bible and beliefs section.  I am interested to see what others have thought after considering the information in the thread, and maybe that would lead to more discussion.

Mr K.
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Re:Spirit, Soul and Body - What is the difference?

Date Posted:28/10/2008 10:59 PMCopy HTML

Good morning, Paul.

What was I hoping to acheive by resubmitting the discussion? Well seeing that a few of the new members are from both AOG and UPC, I thought for their sakes and anyone who may be interested in knowing the different positions on the subject can have additional information.

Sure. But again, why? How did you intend to go about tying the theological implications of anthropology (vis. dichotomy) into perichoretic Christianity? Or was your intent simply to provide information? If so then I have to ask again, why? What did you believe doing so would actually achieve?

After all this is a discussion forum, and in the bible and beliefs section.  I am interested to see what others have thought after considering the information in the thread, and maybe that would lead to more discussion.

Sure it is a "discussion forum", but discussions still need to have foci, otherwise they cease being "discussions", and start becoming "rambles". To be honest, having read your recent post a couple of times now, I'm still not sure what is the point that you're trying to make, or what is the outcome that you're trying to achieve.

I'm a bit lost, actually (and I do understand this subject in detail, so I can only wonder what the uninformed must be thinking).

Blessings,

Ian

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Re:Spirit, Soul and Body - What is the difference?

Date Posted:28/10/2008 11:46 PMCopy HTML

 Hello Ian,

I get your point ( about there not being too much of a link between s.i.t as evidence of h/s and anthropology), and for me personally, if I get uninformed rambling, that's ok too, seeing as I myself at the start of the thread was rambling on uninformed.  And now I have gained a little more understanding on the matter - so my point ( and outcome hoped for) on revisiting the thread, is to hear from what others think about the subject, maybe they found it useful?  Maybe after seeing the different perspectives they can be in a more informed position as well.
If that is the case - good.  If not, and no-one durst put in a response - then the thread will be history.

Regards Mr K.


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Re:Spirit, Soul and Body - What is the difference?

Date Posted:29/10/2008 12:14 AMCopy HTML

Good morning, Paul.

I get your point (about there not being too much of a link between s.i.t as evidence of h/s and anthropology), and for me personally, if I get uninformed rambling, that's ok too, seeing as I myself at the start of the thread was rambling on uninformed.

Your response tells me that you probably didn't really get my point at all. There is actually a rather significant theological link between anthropology (dichotomy vs. trichotomy) and Pentecostal beliefs, something that I pointed out much earlier in this thread, from memory.

And now I have gained a little more understanding on the matter - so my point ( and outcome hoped for) on revisiting the thread, is to hear from what others think about the subject, maybe they found it useful?

Sure. But which information was useful? The earlier discussion, or the new tangent that you've taken it on (and which I still don't understand, by the way)?

Maybe after seeing the different perspectives they can be in a more informed position as well.

How so? Unless you describe the deficiencies of the trichotomist position by appealing to the outcomes of perichoretic theology, just how will the "average" reader ever reach an informed position?

Blessings,

Ian

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Re:Spirit, Soul and Body - What is the difference?

Date Posted:31/10/2008 4:25 AMCopy HTML

Reply to brolga

Ian,

(from chatbox)

Didaktikon: Moth. "I had not previously considered salvation was available between calvary and pentecost, but your highlighting of 'another' comforter has changed my perspective." Well, when you stop to think about it, salvation is Jesus' business. He declared people saved during his 3-odd years ministry. He declared the repentant rebel crucified alongside him, similarly saved. The Spirit came to represent Jesus, but only when Jesus departed to sit at the right hand of the Father. Simple, really  Ian



Firstly, just so I have my thoughts correct; We mediate with the Father through Jesus Christ, ok?

Now, in the light of the Holy Spirit being Jesus' representitive (above) now on earth, is the Holy Spirit now our mediator also?

Ralph

 






 


Hello Ralphie,

I think Ian has already answered your question on another thread in the RCI room. See if you can get hold of a "New InternationalDictionary of New Testament Theology  Volume 1" and read from pages 88 - 92.. There is a very good discussion there that will greatly assist you but to save typing out the relevant bits, I can scan the pages and email them for you to read at your own leisure if you like.

Eric

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Re:Spirit, Soul and Body - What is the difference?

Date Posted:31/10/2008 11:18 PMCopy HTML

Reply to brolga

Thanks Eric, I would appreciate that. (ralphhat@internode.on.net)

Ian,

Having just briefly read the biblical meaning of what a mediator is; (mesitēs) one who brings together parties who are out of communication and may be alienated, estranged, or at war with each other, Jesus can be the only one, since the blood he shed on Calvary is the blood of the sinless Son of God, it was shed once for all, and God accepted it in the heavenly Holy Place.

Ralph.


Righto Ralphie,

Here's the deal. I scanned the relevant pages and for clarity's sake I had to set the resolution at 200 dots DPI  and this makes a rather big document to email so being the highly modern equipped student with a PDF converter, I converted the whole thing into a PDF document so go to this link 

.. download at your convenience.. This invite also goes out to Epi, Talmid, Sea Urchin, Mister K and anybody else I have forgotten..

... no I havn't forgotten Didaktikon (Who can
smiley9 ???!!)

Blessings All

.
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Re:Spirit, Soul and Body - What is the difference?

Date Posted:01/11/2008 6:41 AMCopy HTML

Reply to Episkopeo


Thanks for that Eric.   Appreciate all info I can obtain.  Will go through it tonight.

Epi



 
No worries. I particularly like the statement "active help" on page 89 - now that point alone speaks volumes..  "The parakletos  (nb that is a long 'e' as in obey and the 'o' is short also ie operate) is not called in but sent, given and received. He does not merely put in a good word but brings active help"... and the next paragraph on page 89 neatly sums up the nature of that "active help".

and that word 'active' gives a wonderful picture of 'continuity'.. or 'availability'


blessings


ps One thing I find so attractive about working with the Greek Text is that you are dealing with a raw document that existed well before any of the translation/translater traditions became accepted as norm.. and that also means that the Greek Text existed some 1500 years in round figures before the King James was even translated and these days with Textual Criticism now reaching towards its zenith in accuracy the Greek Text is even of more increasing value. And I suppose the Greek Text may predate the Latin Vulgate by around 400 years too. However with any language, you require a lot of patience because a language cannot be crammed - it needs time to sink in and it can take several years to reach fluency - hence you can appreciate someone of Ian's skill..... In a couple of years time the Siniatic Codex will be available as a complete document online which be available to all and sundry via a subscription and by then I sure hope my own fluency starts to develop properly.





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Re:Spirit, Soul and Body - What is the difference?

Date Posted:06/11/2008 4:28 AMCopy HTML

Reply to Episkopeo


Thanks for that Eric.   Appreciate all info I can obtain.  Will go through it tonight.

Epi

 
Epi, I was pondering over something I said earlier somewhere and I said " The Holy Spirit does not at anytime work independently of the Godhead... and I was just thinking, if that is the case then neither can we... And because people who think they can operate independently of the Godhead,often find themselves in a situation where they are only kidding themselves and hence you get all the "courteous falls" and pretend tongues and so on. You know you will get people who get get powerfully touched and imparted by the Holy Spirit and almost without fail straight away they think they are the greatest thing going and really all they are doing is playing "Charismatic games".

I guess the real truth is we have to learn to co-operate with Him NOT apart from Him .. Hence you get the showmanship type evangelism. Go and check out the latest RCI newsletter and the RCI are pounding the experience of tongues to the point where they are just jamming it down your throat and at the same time using the gift to justify themselves as something great and yet Epi when you think about it: Rather than presenting the Gospel as "good news" they are instead merchandising a beautiful gift.

blessings sister

Eric 

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Re:Spirit, Soul and Body - What is the difference?

Date Posted:04/01/2009 9:22 PMCopy HTML

 From Little Kittel page 1347:

Psyche = " The Whole Person " Part D. The NT. part 2  "If psyche means "physical life," what is at issue is not the phenomenon as such, but the life manifested in individuals. Thus 'pasa psyche' means "everybody" in Acts 2:43, but with an individualizing thrust (3:23). Mat. 11:29 promises rest to the souls of all who come to Jesus. The expression rests on Jer 6:16 and carries the implication of the human self that lives before God and must give account to him. Hence the rest is not that of liberation from the body. It is attained in acts of physical obedience to God, for the physical life that God gives cannot be separated from the life with God that takes shape in prayer, praise, and doing God's will "

.. So the moral of the quote is that we have to watch 'context' when considering a word study.

Happy New Year to All

Eric
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