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For Zions Sake
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Date Posted:26/10/2007 6:04 PMCopy HTML

Earth5: well Im of to church this morning, im gonna speak in toung's till the cows come home if I want, i gonna sing and dance and jump and praise my God I will lift my hands in worship I will clap and rejoice, i might even get emotional and show some tears or maybe laugh, boy im looking forward to what God is going to do with this day

earth5: hope you all enjoy your day with whatever you decide to do with it

moth: Oh boy oh boy... what is god going to do this day as I tip toe through the tulips... Whatever does he have in store for me this special day? as I skip, dance, cry and laugh.... oh, for Christ's sake, get a room you two. Can you get anymore Ned Flanders? Do you realise how gay that all sounds? Not that there's anything wrong with that... You can shake this off as inevitable christian persecution with a laugh though eh... it's all good.

Didaktikon: E5. Just a word of caution: if you intend 'speaking in tongues until the cows come home' in church, then you'd better hope (and pray) that there is an interpreter present. Otherwise you'll be biblically, morally and ethically 'out of order', and as guilty of hubris as were the gormless Corinthians that Paul corrected

Anon: Didaktikon...are you serious??? Do you mean that everytimeeveryonein the GRC prays in tongues while they open in prayer,take prayer requests, bless the word, take communion, exercise the gifts, pray in the prayer line,close in prayer, have a prayer time between meetings on Sunday, have a prayer timeat the end of meetings on Wednesday and Saturday, dedicate a baby, pray all day, for several days at a fast.....and so on.....they are 'biblically, morally and ethically out of order'??????? oh ya, for anyone else that doesn't know what hubris or gormless means, I looked it uphubris - excessive pride or self-confidence; arrogancegormless - lacking intelligence and vitality; dull.arrogance? dull? yup! that sounds like the place I came from!
For Zion's sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not rest.... Isa 62:1
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Re:Speaking in tongues without an interpreter

Date Posted:26/10/2007 9:30 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : For Zions Sake


Just a word of caution: if you intend 'speaking in tongues until the cows come home' in church, then you'd better hope(and pray) that there is an interpreter present. Otherwise you'll be biblically, morally and ethically 'out of order', and as guilty of hubris as were the gormless Corinthians that Paul corrected Ian

Didaktikon...are you serious???  Do you mean that everytime everyone in the GRC prays in tongues while they open in prayer, take prayer requests, bless the word, take communion, exercise the gifts, pray in the prayer line, close in prayer, have a prayer time between meetings on Sunday, have a prayer time at the end of meetings on Wednesday and Saturday, dedicate a baby, pray all day, for several days at a fast.....and so on.....they are 'biblically, morally and ethically out of order'???????


I for one believe Didaktikon is correct in this statement. Not only in the GRC but all who display this nonsense.  

Have you researched this issue yourself?  I think I have read everything that is available on the matter and this is the only conclusion I can come to, albeit my initial experience with "receiving" tongues was somewhat questionable.

brolga 

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Re:Speaking in tongues without an interpreter

Date Posted:27/10/2007 5:22 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : For Zions Sake

Hi Zion,

Didaktikon...are you serious???

Very much so.

Do you mean that everytime everyone in the GRC prays in tongues while they open in prayer, take prayer requests, bless the word, take communion, exercise the gifts, pray in the prayer line, close in prayer, have a prayer time between meetings on Sunday, have a prayer time at the end of meetings on Wednesday and Saturday, dedicate a baby, pray all day, for several days at a fast.....and so on.....they are 'biblically, morally and ethically out of order'???????

According to Paul's very clear, very precise direction to the Corinthians, should a person pray publicly in 'tongues', then it must be interpreted. Paul nowhere provides any exceptions to this 'rule' (e.g.your: open in prayer, take prayer requests, bless the word, take communion, exercise the gifts, pray in the prayer line, close in prayer, have a prayer time between meetings on Sunday, have a prayer time at the end of meetings on Wednesday and Saturday, dedicate a baby, pray all day, for several days at a fast.....and so on.....). Public 'tongues' ALWAYS requires public 'interpretation'.

Blessings,

Ian
email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:Speaking in tongues without an interpreter

Date Posted:27/10/2007 6:18 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : brolga

Hi Brolga

I for one believe Didaktikon is correct in this statement. Not only in the GRC but all who practice this nonsense.  

I know, I know...just thought I was over the shock of having my 'eyes opened'...looks like the fun has just begun.

Have you researched this issue yourself?  I think I have read everything that is available on the matter and this is the only conclusion I can come to,...

No, I haven't done any research yet...any suggestions?

...albeit my initial experience with "receiving" tongues was somewhat questionable.

Well, my initial experience was not questionable at all...I think???

 

Reply to : Didaktikon

Thanks Didaktikon (strange...it's very difficult to type fast in Greek!!..)

According to Paul's very clear, very precise direction to the Corinthians, should a person pray publicly in 'tongues', then it must be interpreted. Paul nowhere provides any exceptions to this 'rule' (e.g.your: open in prayer, take prayer requests, bless the word, take communion, exercise the gifts, pray in the prayer line, close in prayer, have a prayer time between meetings on Sunday, have a prayer time at the end of meetings on Wednesday and Saturday, dedicate a baby, pray all day, for several days at a fast.....and so on.....). Public 'tongues' ALWAYS requires public 'interpretation'.

It just surprises me, and disappoints me, how easy it is to make such a dreadful error.  I have read those scriptures many times and it made sense the 'old' way.  I know I was 'guided' in my understanding, but in the beginning, I looked to prove them wrong and never saw it the correct way. Other than learning Greek, I guess I had no hope...

For Zion's sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not rest.... Isa 62:1
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Re:Speaking in tongues without an interpreter

Date Posted:27/10/2007 7:46 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : For Zions Sake


Have you researched this issue yourself?  I think I have read everything that is available on the matter and this is the only conclusion I can come to,...

No, I haven't done any research yet...any suggestions?


I could always see the tongues that the Apostles experienced on the day of Pentecost was not the same as what the Corinthians were practicing. I was told I had received the Holy Spirit because I spoke in tongues. This didn't do any thing for my belief as I used to mimic Chinese language as a kid, and did the same when I was 'seeking'  and on hearing me,Noel said I had received.

The essays in "Pease Consider" put me on the path of understanding what tongues really meant.  Make this a start, Google and read what others have said about tongues, keeping an open mind of course. Once you get an understanding of what it is to really receive the Holy Spirit, you will find, tongues play little part in salvation and your walk.

brolga

 

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Re:Speaking in tongues without an interpreter

Date Posted:02/10/2008 1:56 AMCopy HTML

Ian,

An issue came to light again this morning when my RF friend mentioned he was going to spend half a day praying in the Spirit (speaking in tongues)
Being well armed due to Please Consider and etc., I made the situation quite clear it is not what praying in the Spirit means.
A bit of feedback through the essays confirmed I was correct in the discussion this morning, but I find a couple of answers still elusive to this question;
We know that Paul, in the church (publicly) spoke in tongues and made it clear, "no interpreter- no tongues - let speak to himself - etc", then can we come to a definite conclusion that one can use tongues in private prayer to any avail or is it wrong.?

Ralph
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Re:Speaking in tongues without an interpreter

Date Posted:02/10/2008 5:33 AMCopy HTML

Hiya, Ralph.

An issue came to light again this morning when my RF friend mentioned he was going to spend half a day praying in the Spirit (speaking in tongues)...

Why on earth would he want to do that?!

Being well armed due to Please Consider and etc., I made the situation quite clear it is not what praying in the Spirit means. A bit of feedback through the essays confirmed I was correct in the discussion this morning, but I find a couple of answers still elusive to this question...

Okay.

We know that Paul, in the church (publicly) spoke in tongues and made it clear, "no interpreter- no tongues - let speak to himself - etc", then can we come to a definite conclusion that one can use tongues in private prayer to any avail or is it wrong.?

Actually, to begin with we know that Paul never spoke in "tongues" in the church (i.e. "publicly") at all! About this fact he was explicitly clear. For example, in 1 Corinthians 14:6 Paul used a conditional modifier, that is one predicated by the word "if", to make his case. This identifies the "possibility" of him "speaking in tongues" in a meeting context, but that such was far from being a "certainty" (i.e. had he used "when", instead). Further, note the implication of verse 18, but qualified as it is by verse 19.  To Paul, prayer in "tongues" was better served as a private practice rather than as a public one.

Blessings,

Ian

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Re:Speaking in tongues without an interpreter

Date Posted:02/10/2008 5:38 AMCopy HTML

Of course, the above response is mine; I simply failed to "log in" first smiley8

Ian

email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:Speaking in tongues without an interpreter

Date Posted:02/10/2008 5:47 AMCopy HTML

Brolga: We know that Paul, in the church (publicly) spoke in tongues and made it clear, "no interpreter- no tongues - let speak to himself - etc", then can we come to a definite conclusion that one can use tongues in private prayer to any avail or is it wrong.?

   _________________________________________________________________________________

Ian, I don't believe you answered Brolga's question actually.  He asked  "then can we come to a definite conclusion that one can use tongues in private prayer to any avail or is it wrong."?
 
I'm interested in hearing your view if you have one - DO you consider it 'wrong' to pray in tongues in private prayer?

Urch



Your unfailing love, O Lord, is as vast as the heavens; your faithfulness reaches beyond the clouds. Your righteousness is like the mighty mountains, your justice like the ocean depths.
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Re:Speaking in tongues without an interpreter

Date Posted:02/10/2008 10:24 AMCopy HTML

 Ian,

Why on earth would he want to do that?!  Heaven knows, I haven't asked him yet
Tom still suffers from "Revivalitis" and believes that he is "praying in the Spirit".

Actually, to begin with we know that Paul never spoke in "tongues" in the church (i.e. "publicly") at all!....................
Ah, even with  my much studying on this issue, Why didn't I see that bit before?

Thankyou

Ralph

Urch,
Tongues is a spiritual gift howbeit to be used publicly with interpretation to follow, for the edification of the church. Paul tells us if there is no interpreter, let him speak to himself and to God. Citing up with what Ian has just explained, I conclude, that it is the same gift that operates(or should I say, 'accompanies'?) in private prayer, giving thanks(1 Cor, v19) and for edification of the individual. ("How be it in the spirit he speaketh mysteries") and therefore can be beneficial so long as one does not become dogmatic about it.
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Re:Speaking in tongues without an interpreter

Date Posted:02/10/2008 11:07 AMCopy HTML

Urch,

Ian, I don't believe you answered Brolga's question actually.

'Yes' I did, actually

He asked  "...then can we come to a definite conclusion that one can use tongues in private prayer to any avail or is it wrong?"

One doesn't start the conversation, as you have done, with the apodosis. I pointed Ralph to Paul's discussion of the matter in 1 Corinthians 14. Which, of course, answered the issue more than adequately. And Ralph, himself, has indicated as much

I'm interested in hearing your view if you have one - DO you consider it 'wrong' to pray in tongues in private prayer?

You already know the answer to this, rather pointless question, given that you already know something of the vagaries of my prayer life. Consequently, I wonder that you felt there to be need to ask it at all.

Blessings,

Ian

email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:Speaking in tongues without an interpreter

Date Posted:02/10/2008 11:15 AMCopy HTML

Good evening, Ralph.

Ah, even with  my much studying on this issue, Why didn't I see that bit before?

For the most simple of reasons: a pre-conditioned acceptance of a particular position, reinforced as it was by many years in Revivalism. The Scottish proverb rings true: "...many things in the Bible I see, most of them put there by you and by me."

Exegesis can only work, it can only be effective, if one approaches the biblical text with a certain degree of academic "distanciation". Question everything, assume nothing and search diligently for the truth

Blessings,

Ian

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Re:Speaking in tongues without an interpreter

Date Posted:02/10/2008 12:24 PMCopy HTML

"Distanciation".  Never heard of the word before; VIZ:

What Is Distanciation?

 

Piece from D.A. Carson’s classic work, Exegetical Fallacies.

 

“The fundamental danger with all critical study of the Bible lies in what hermeneutical experts call distanciation. Distanciation is a necessary component of critical work; but is difficult and sometimes costly” (23).

 

The fallacy that comes from the omission of distanciation has to do with an interpreter’s inability to distance himself from his presuppositions in the interpretive process and discerning the meaning of the text. We all have presuppositions which are simply beliefs or convictions we hold prior to handling the text (also called apriori convictions or control beliefs). Having presuppositions is not bad, of course, but what is detrimental and fallacious is when we use our presuppositions to influence our interpretation and alter the meaning of the text. Carson explains,

 

“If we sometimes read our own theology into the text, the solution is not to retreat to an attempted neutrality, to try to make one’s mind a tabula rasa so we may listen to the text without bias. It cannot be done, and it is a fallacy to think it can be. We must rather discern what our prejudices are and make allowances for them; and meanwhile we should learn all the historical theology we can” (129).

 

Essentially speaking, the consequences that comes from the omission of distinction is the dreaded practice of eisegesis—the subjective approach of the interpreter which forces the Bible to mean something that fits their existing belief (presupposition) or understanding of a particular issue or doctrine (i.e. reading into the text one’s own ideas). While often times the eisegetical work seen today is due to a defensive pietism or uncritical anti-intellectualism, eisegesis also is practiced among intelligent and well-equipped ministers, who either intentionally do not distance themselves from their presuppositions or simply fail to see text due to a skewed lens (apriori commitments) which affect their ability to see the text as it was intended by the author.

 

The difficulty with distanciation comes when one does not realize one’s presuppositions or neglects their influence in eclipsing the truth of God’s Word with the overshadowing effect of his tightly held convictions. To practice distanciation in the process of interpretation, one must begin by acknowledging one’s prior convictions and then distance himself from them in order to allow the text to speak for itself. Carson explains that “we must first of all grasp the nature and degree of the differences that separate our understanding from the understanding of the text” (24). This process becomes quite disturbing and discomforting, but intellectual virtue and critical study demands that the interpreter be open, honest, and thorough in the work of exegesis. A closed-minded, biased interpreter will find their exegesis to be a reflection more on their personal theology than the text itself—a fallacy which can be found in every theological camp.

 

Another aspect of the difficulty and even danger in distanciation is how it affects you as a student of the Scripture. As you adapt a critical and careful study of the text, you can easily find yourself examining it merely for the acquisition of nuances and intellectual precision and fail to realize that the purpose of interpretation is to lead to a greater love and devotion to God. In other words, distanciation can, if not guarded, cause a student to treat the Bible as a textbook only and fall short of understanding that the purpose of sound exegesis should translate into heightened affection for and deepened devotion to Jesus Christ, the Living Word.

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Re:Speaking in tongues without an interpreter

Date Posted:02/10/2008 2:58 PMCopy HTML

Brolga,

Regarding long periods of praying in tongues,  I think RF associates it with the parable about a man who goes boldly at midnight to seek what he requires and doesn't give up until he receives what it is he requests.

Luke 11: 8  Though he will not rise and hive him, because he is his friend, yet BECAUSE OF HIS IMPORTUNITY he will rise and give him as many as he needeth.

I remember this scripture being used before prayer and fasts.

Epi
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Re:Speaking in tongues without an interpreter

Date Posted:02/10/2008 9:13 PMCopy HTML

Epi,

 

Contextually, a quick browse in Luke Ch 11 shows us that Jesus is answering a request from a disciple to teach them how to pray, thus, the Lord’s Prayer. I fail to see how one can interpret the parable that follows, be taken as long sessions speaking in tongues to receive any thing from the Lord, after He has already explained in what manner to pray. Yes we must be “bold” in asking of the Father, knowing He will grant that which is asked for, and I am sure the Lord cannot be pleased with the “yabba” “yabba” that goes on all the time.

 

brolga

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Re:Speaking in tongues without an interpreter

Date Posted:02/10/2008 11:57 PMCopy HTML

 Brolga,

I'm not saying it's right, but this is what they use to encourage people to pray and fast, especially on official prayer and fast days.  Emphasis is on importunity - persistently plead, implore, entreat (in tongues) for what you want.

Epi
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Re:Speaking in tongues without an interpreter

Date Posted:03/10/2008 12:16 AMCopy HTML

Reply to Episkopeo
 Brolga,

I'm not saying it's right, but this is what they use to encourage people to pray and fast, especially on official prayer and fast days.  Emphasis is on importunity - persistently plead, implore, entreat (in tongues) for what you want.

Epi

Epi,

I wasn't picking you up as thinking it right, the comment was for benefit of those in Revival that might have a little open-mindedness and look into scripture as the original author intended it to be. Not one man's own opinion that leads to turmoil.

brolga


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Re:Speaking in tongues without an interpreter

Date Posted:07/10/2008 9:40 PMCopy HTML

Reply to Episkopeo

 Hi Brolga,

Having an open-mindedness to look into scripture as the original author intended - how true that is.

Epi

Hi Epi,

Just a point of curiosity. Are you a former revivalist pastor ?? No need to reveal which revivalist group, just a yay or nay will suffice.

blessings

Disciple

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Re:Speaking in tongues without an interpreter

Date Posted:08/10/2008 11:06 PMCopy HTML

Sorry Epi, that was me (Urch) that butted in to Disciple. I just get a bit lazy about logging in sometimes, and I hope you didn't mind too much?  I almost felt 'ínsulted' on your behalf that he would think you were an ex-rf pastor (ha ha).

I think I can speak for many of us when I say that your input, insight and encouragement is quite valuable on this forum - good to have people that have moved on from rev and have a good persepective of it all without any bitterness.

Love, Urch
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Re:Speaking in tongues without an interpreter

Date Posted:08/10/2008 11:56 PMCopy HTML

Hi, Urch.

I almost felt 'ínsulted' on your behalf that he would think you were an ex-rf pastor (ha ha).

Well you shouldn't have, given that the particular ex-RCI pastor he thought she may have been was Drew Dixon, the co-author of the www.pleaseconsider.info web resource! Eric was actually paying Epi a compliment!


Blessings,

Ian

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Re:Speaking in tongues without an interpreter

Date Posted:09/10/2008 12:50 AMCopy HTML

Ian, yes I know who Drew is and have read most of 'PC' over the last few years (a lot of it while still in rf and coming to grips with leaving).  I was just trying to justify to Epi why I poked my nose in, that's all! LOL

Epi, yep, good old hindsight is an amazing thing huh? So easy now to look back and see things clearly - I think our (my) 'vision' was definitely very clouded while still under the old RF banner. There sure is a process to go through before one makes that final step out into freedom.  I continue to pray for everyone with family members still in the system that they too will receive the same revelation and begin to see past the indoctrination.

Love, Urch
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