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| Title: Signs, Wonders, Healings & Miracles:Are Christians called to live a charmed life? | |
| Revival_Centres_Discussion_Forums > Bible, Beliefs, Scriptures and 'The Word' > Revival Doctrines we 'USED TO BELIEVE' | Go to subcategory： |
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RevivalDemeritPoints
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Date Posted：18/11/2009 3:26 AMCopy HTML Hi All, I think the topic of healing is one that needs to be addressed in particular for (but not limited to) all Revivalists, post-Revivalists and Pentecostals. This comes from many years of being told that "healing is the children's bread" in Revival (RCI and RF), then discovering a few months ago, that this misquote is not even in the Bible. Since leaving RF a year ago (after 20 years in), I have had many discussions with current and former revivalists (some now pentes) as well as people from various denominations including former evangelical Anglicans, Uniting Churchians(?), Baptists, Charismatic Catholics and Lutherans) on the matter of healing and miracles (along with many other topics). There are so many proof-texts (scriptures quoted out of context and used to mean something else) regarding this topic alone, that I thought it warranted a post on the matter. I thought maybe we could try and think of some of the scriptures that are used to argue the side of Revivalists/many pentes etc that it is always God's will to heal us (ie such as Mark 16 -Believers shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover; Matt 7:7-8 Ask and it will be given to you..; Isaiah 53:4-5 -ie. the by his stripes we are healed topic) and then look at each scripture in turn and try and debunk some of the myths, to ascertain what scripture says (in context) in these scriptures versus what is myth/made up/mere distortion of these various passages on the matter. It seems that the Christian view on this matter is, as Ian stated recently in the chatbox "God is sovereign in his choices and in his actions". This view is not supported by Revivalists (nor some Pente groups) in that they believe it is always God's will to heal someone and it is only our faith that prevents us from receiving the victory, in which case we need to pray for more faith to believe we will be healed etc. Some other points (from the chatbox) are below... but it would be great for more light to be shed on some of these false/ out-of-context teachings, God bless, RDP
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Didaktikon
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#1
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Re：Signs, Wonders, Healings & Miracles:Are Christians called to live a charmed life? Date Posted：18/11/2009 4:09 AMCopy HTML Hi, RDP.
Revivalists (and Pentes) often proclaim that healing results from an act of faith: no healing = inadequate/insufficient faith. Such a position is simplistic at the very least, and completely naive, insofar that (a) the responsibility for the miraculous is transfered from God to human beings; (b) faith becomes naught but a "commodity" to be wielded rather than an attribute to be nurtured; and (c) it altogether fails to grapple with the biblical principles of "strength in weakness", and the clear theology of suffering that's enshrined within Scripture. The issue, in a nutshell, is a skewed approach to, and (mis)understanding of, "Christian triumphalism". Instead of appreciating the "present/future" or "now/not yet" aspects to the irrupting Kingdom of God, Revivalists (along with a good slice of the Pente crowd), mistakenly assumes that the Kingdom is here in all of its fullness! Such a position certainly makes for a nice, abstract sort of a belief system. But it clearly fails the all-too-crucial "reality" test! And when the "healing" doesn't come as anticipated/expected, the "name-it-and-claim-it" atheology subscribed to by such people inevitably leads to a crushing sense of doubt and self-condemnation. Blessings, Ian email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Ex_Member
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Re：Signs, Wonders, Healings & Miracles:Are Christians called to live a charmed life? Date Posted：19/11/2009 2:11 AMCopy HTML Hey Ian and anyone else reading,
RE: Revivalists (and Pentes) often proclaim that healing results from an act of faith: no healing = inadequate/insufficient faith. Such a position is simplistic at the very least, and completely naive, insofar that (a) the responsibility for the miraculous is transferedfrom God to human beings; (b) faith becomes naught but a "commodity" to be wielded rather than an attribute to be nurtured; and (c) it altogether fails to grapple with the biblical principles of "strength in weakness", and the clear theology of suffering that's enshrined within Scripture. (Ian) Very interesting, this reminds me of something HG said in the chatbox a while back about being concerned that she didn't feel like she automatically had enough love for others and was wondering whether this made her unchristian. So again, faith is like love then - an attribute to be nurtured - which scriptures could you point us to Ian, that support this notion, specifically? Your comments also reminded me of something that was discussed here about a year ago (maybe less) about perseverance. In particular, this scripture (the bold bit in particular) springs to mind: (Romans 5:1-5) 1Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. 3Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us. -and this is a fantastic scripture, I think, for us ex-revvers to explore -suffering? we were told we could just pray and then we would be happy though? We were the happy-clappers! Weren't we? ;) Also Galien, good point about the pastor's sister-in-law dying resulting in confusion, guilt and shame. This is common in Revival when disaster,death, tragedy etc strikes -where is the blessing in these things -so they think God must not be happy with them -they ponder and make up their own minds why things happen. How many times did I hear, if you're not happy about something you are the problem, get more involved or go "witness" to 10 people -in other words go tell people they must glossolate or otherwise they are damned to hell (sorry revivalists reading if that sounds too harsh, but if you are honest with yourselves, that's what it does boil down to from the revivalist standpoint). No encouragement from scripture, just good old guilts and condemnation to keep the flock in fear and in line. Again, it seems to boil down to good old lack of understanding about what the scriptures say about such matters. Lloydism at its worst. The issue, in a nutshell, is a skewed approach to, and (mis)understanding of, "Christian triumphalism". Instead of appreciating the "present/future" or "now/not yet" aspects to the irrupting Kingdom of God, Revivalists (along with a good slice of the Pente crowd), mistakenly assumes that the Kingdom is here in all of its fullness! Such a position certainly makes for a nice, abstract sort of a belief system. But it clearly fails the all-too-crucial "reality" test! And when the "healing" doesn't come as anticipated/expected, the "name-it-and-claim-it" atheology subscribed to by such people inevitably leads to a crushing sense of doubt and self-condemnation. Interesting, hadn't heard of Christian triumphalism before but I can't help but think if so many weren't told this lie about God -that we are called to lead a charmed life of prosperity as opposed to suffering, trials and hardships (reality) then they wouldn't have stopped believing in God, because reality doesn't lie. I was going to say "wouldn't have lost their faith in God" but then if faith is God given, can it be lost or just left unurtured? God bless, RDP |
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Didaktikon
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#3
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Re：Signs, Wonders, Healings & Miracles:Are Christians called to live a charmed life? Date Posted：19/11/2009 10:32 PMCopy HTML Good morning, RDP.
Scripture has quite a bit to say on the subject of faith (and faithfulness), so I'm somewhat loathe to be providing a list of "proof-texts". I'm all too conscious of the fact that there are a range of Hebrew and Greek words that intersects with the theme, but which aren't necessarily translated into English as "faith". Consequently, I'd rather point you back to the earlier discussions that we had on the subject of "salvation in Luke", where "faith", and it's development, featured prominently. The contexts of those passages that we corporately exegeted, should help to inform the current discussion. However, given that you've asked about nurturing faith, I'll suggest that you reflect afresh on Romans 10:14-17: "How are they to call on one they have not believed in? And how are they to believe in one they have not heard of? And how are they to hear without someone preaching to them? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How timely is the arrival of those who proclaim the good news.” But not all have obeyed the good news, for Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” Consequently faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the preached word of Christ." The key point in our passage is the gradual unfolding and developing of faith that directly results from hearing the word of Christ preached faithfully. Faith develops from being receptive to preaching that extols Christ's teaching. Contrast this with what passed as "preaching" in Revivalism. In Revivalism, enduring faith was not nurtured because the "diet" was altogether unsuitable to the task, being wholly deficient in Christ's word. In your previous RF context, people were incorrectly, and arrogantly "preached at"; they were told that if they weren't healed, for example, that it was because they lacked faith! How ironic that Romans 10 places the emphasis for the nurturing of peoples' faith, and its outcomes (such as healing, according to Revivalist atheology at any rate), on the very ones who destroyed any possibility for such a development taking place to begin with: the "preachers"! Of course this is one of the reasons that I "bang-on" so much about the absolute need for people to be fellowshipping in orthodox Christian churches, places where they will be fed on Christ's word, and then by men and women who take the preaching task very seriously, and who have received the preparation needed to do it justice. Blessings, Ian email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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