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We are overwhelmed with so called christian material in books, magazines, internet, radio, TV videos and DVDs. There are real spiritual dangers in allowing ourselves to be influenced by it and we could make a shipwreck of our faith. Pastor Bob outlines our clear straight forward salvation message and warns us to be on our guard."Desire the sincere milk of the Word..."

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Pfft... doesn't take much to overwhelm these guys does it?

Practically demanding their members to stay ignorant... out of love of course.

They hate the cult label, but they dance with it whenver they use these sort of tactics to keep their mushrooms in the dark and fed on crap.

Hi Moth & earth

Nothing new there,  just the good old " Separation Policy".   A few guys from the Woodcroft assembly were actually ' put out of fellowship'  because they refused to stop reading Christian material and watching the Christian channel etc.  I can see how that's a sin and not to be tolerated in RF, can't you?? UNREAL!! God forbid that we should listen to other preachers or read books that may help us in our walks huh? Another guy was ' put out'  cos he held an  ' unauthorised prayer meeting'  even though a lot of the prayer was for the RF oversight to ' wake up' .  Oh that's right, what am I thinking, we can't have oversight ' waking up'  can we now??  (Sorry, will calm down now - not too many things make me angry, but this sort of behaviour kinda does) 

A little birdie told me recently that a current Woodcroft pastor actually listens to ' other Christian music'  (Hillsong) and really enjoys it - too bizarre for words. He should be ' put out' !

Urch

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Reply to : MothandRustHi Moth & earthNothing new there, just the good old " Separation Policy". A few guys from the Woodcroft assembly were actually ' put out of fellowship' because they refused to stop reading Christian material and watching the Christian channel etc. I can see how that's a sin and not to be tolerated in RF, can't you?? UNREAL!!God forbid that we should listen to other preachers or read books that may help us in our walks huh? Another guy was ' put out' cos heheld an ' unauthorisedprayer meeting' even though a lot of the prayer was for the RF oversight to ' wake up' . Oh that's right, what am I thinking, we can't have oversight ' waking up' can we now?? (Sorry, will calm down now - not too ma

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Go woody pastor, be carful though, you might start enjoying the music, look what happend to Pastor Bob in canberra (not Beverly) lol

Pretty insane really to think that they feel threatened by this stuff, how insecure is that

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We are overwhelmed with so called christian material in books, magazines, internet, radio, TV videos and DVDs. There are real spiritual dangers in allowing ourselves to be influenced by it and we could make a shipwreck of our faith. Pastor Bob outlines our clear straight forward salvation message and warns us to be on our guard."Desire the sincere milk of the Word..."

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Hi earth and moth

Just had an interesting read - just finished reading and comparing the Separation Policy written by JK and the OTHER one written by BB.  It appears that BB felt that JK's was a little too harsh in some areas and so he has ' added to '  the original and softened it a little, or so it seems.  He's added a section on ' Praise and worship'  and another section on ' what to do if you see people that used to go to RF'  which was not in JK's original version.  He also went on to explain why ' religion' is the most difficult area of separation and added that           ' We appreciate that all of God's blessing is not contained in any one church, one fellowship, and that good fruit can come from other spirit filled churches." Gosh, this seems almost reasonable, what's with the different version!  In the examples of ' what to do if my relatives go to another pentecostal church' both versions state: ' we should be hospitable'  but BB has added ' and don't judge, acknowledge the work of God in their lives and church ' .  Seems to be a little less judgement over Canberra way and almost an acknowledgement that God may even be working in other churches not only the RF.

In another section on " Other Ministry and Resources" the JK version states that; "thousands of our brothers & sisters in PNG, Kenya etc do not have access to other books, TV, videos, DVD's or the internet. They are saved, healed and blessed in their fellowships. Their testimony shows us that we are better off without these things" .  Obviously BB thought this was pretty dumb (which it is) and so left it completely out of his version.  I wonder if JK thought carefully about this statement about people from PNG, Kenya etc - some of them also don't have shoes/clothes and often not enough food to feed their children and yet they are saved - therefore would we be better off without shoes/clothes/food too??  It's not real bright is it?

I know of people still in the Canberra RF and also some that have left over the last 6 months, their concerts over there were more like the Hillsong-type praise music, in fact they sang some Hillsong songs and many hands were raised during worship time.  BB was present at all of these concerts and actually stated that he enjoyed them - so what happened to make him change his mind I wonder?

Urch

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It appears that BB felt that JK's Separation Policy was a little too harsh in some areas and so he has 'added to'  the original and softened it a little, or so it seems.

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Sorry all, I have just finished reading the Separation Policy right through and realised that I missed something in my earlier post and consequently stuffed up on an important fact. (and I thought research was one of my stronger points! ha)

Bob B wrote the original Sep Policy in Sept 2006 and THEN JK adapted it and circulated it in Adelaide in early 2007.  It is interesting to note that this 'revised version'  totally lacks in any grace that was in the earlier version and is full of typical Adelaidian legalism. It is sad that ' grace'  is so lacking, and even if RF mention grace from time to time, the legalism overrides it. You cannot mix grace with legalism, it is totally against scripture.

One cannot help but wonder, if the RF are so 'united'  why do they have such different Separation Policies and why do they handle things so differently in various States?  I have spoken to two separate people who are at RF and they were not even AWARE that there was such thing as a Sep Policy.  It is apparently kept on the front counter in the foyer, but generally people are not even aware of it. Surely if people must ADHERE to it if they wish to be a part of the assembly, they should most certainly be aware of it's existence.  In any workplace, a policy usually goes through a consultation phase (ha) and is then put out for ALL to see and be aware of,  and yet in this case, it appears that very few people are aware of it. Perhaps this is so that the oversight can then just pull it out as they need to when disciplining those that they choose to - who knows?

Urch

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Reply to : MothandRustWe areoverwhelmedwith so called christian material in books, magazines, internet, radio, TV videos and DVDs. There are real spiritual dangers in allowing ourselves to be influenced by it and we could make a shipwreck of our faith. Pastor Bob outlines our clear straight forward salvation message and warns us to be on our guard."Desire the sincere milk of the Word..."Hi earth and mothJust had an interesting read -just finished reading and comparing the Separation Policywritten by JK and the OTHER one written by BB. It appearsthat BB felt that JK's was a little too harsh in some areas and so he has ' added to ' the original and softened it a little, or so it seems. He's added a section o

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I'm truly fastinated, 26 years in the church and have never heard of a separation doc. until the last 12 months. How does one get a copy of not only JK's Version but BB's. To add something to the matter I understand that Joe Able (JA) has added a page to the doc  because he doesn't think BB's has gone far enough, which he went on to present at the pastors meeting in NSW last week. Oh this is a sad picture.

A comment from one of my pastors on hearing this stuff "what is this heresy, The only separation my bible talks about is separation from the world and sin".

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Reply to : Sea UrchinReply to : MothandRustWe areoverwhelmedwith so called christian material in books, magazines, internet, radio, TV videos and DVDs. There are real spiritual dangers in allowing ourselves to be influenced by it and we could make a shipwreck of our faith. Pastor Bob outlines our clear straight forward salvation message and warns us to be on our guard."Desire the sincere milk of the Word..."Hi earth and mothJust had an interesting read -just finished reading and comparing the Separation Policywritten by JK and the OTHER one written by BB. It appearsthat BB felt that JK's was a little too harsh in some areas and so he has ' added to ' the original and softened it a little, or so it seems. He's added a section oI'm truly fastinated, 26 years in the churc

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Separation is the work of sanctification. Sanctification is an event and a process performed ONLY by the Holy Spirit Himself.  John Kuhlman is NOT the Holy Spirit.  

anon

Hi FG,  This is indeed truly sad.     There are not very many things that I get angry about but this is one of them.   I would go as far as to say that it grieves my spirit.   I was given a copy of each of the policies, one written by BB in Sept 06 and the other by JK in Feb 07.  And now you say that another RF pastor is also adding to them?  It really scares me for the future of the many good people still in RF -  because as the RF become more legalistic, the grace and the blessing of God will be removed from their church.  Grace and legalism cannot be found together as legalism totally cancels out grace.  

Who ought we to listen to and obey - men or God?  One must be sure that one is not following a man or an organisation that contradicts the word of God in any way.

Urch

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Hi urch, I think the candle stick if it hasn't already been removed it will as this stuff continues to unfold.

There is plenty cooking behind the scenes, I think the next council meeting set for Nov at the Gold Coast will be a beauty.

Legalism is now rampant and I was handed a doc. Articles of Faith of the AOG the other day and the staement made if any of our people were to found fellowshipping with people that believe this stuff then they have lost there salvation as far as that pastor was concerned.

Extremeism, heresy,slander, all against the body of Christ. Who' s grieved the most here.

 

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Hi urch, I think the candle stick if it hasn't already been removed it will as this stuff continues to unfold.There is plenty cooking behind the scenes, I think the next council meeting set for Nov at the Gold Coast will be a beauty.Legalism is now rampant and I was handed a doc. Articles of Faith of the AOG the other day and the staement made if any of our people were to found fellowshipping with people that believe this stuff then they have lost there salvation as far as that pastor was concerned.Extremeism, heresy,slander, all against the body of Christ. Who' s grieved the most here.

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Hi FG

The RF's refusal to recognise the greater body of Christ (let alone fellowship with them) is very sad and it appears they are becoming more and more paranoid about 'other churches' these days. Oh well, at least they're leaving the poor old Catholics alone for a while I suppose.  The pastor who stated the above (saints will lose their salvation by fellowshipping with AOG people) I sincerely hope was not any of your local pastors.  I just don't know how all this is going to end but I believe the RF's days are numbered especially when they make statements like the above.  

One thing that I am totally convicted about is that the Body of Christ (the church which is ALL Christians) have to stand together as a united body.  Do we have no need of the ears or eyes or hand or feet in the body? 

How will people know us and thereby come to know God?  'by this shall all men know, you are my disciples, if you have love one for another'

Hang in there Frankie boy

God bless, Urch

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Reply to : Sea UrchinHi urch, I think the candle stick if it hasn't already been removed it will as this stuff continues to unfold.There is plenty cooking behind the scenes, I think the next council meeting set for Nov at the Gold Coast will be a beauty.Legalism is now rampant and I was handed a doc. Articles of Faith of the AOG the other day and the staement made if any of our people were to found fellowshipping with people that believe this stuff then they have lost there salvation as far as that pastor was concerned.Extremeism, heresy,slander, all against the body of Christ. Who' s grieved the most here.

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Hi FG , this is indeed an indictment for this particular group of people , it truly saddens me that this stuff  is been bandied about like gospel.

In the end God is God and will have his way, stay strong my friend, will catch up soon, im in melb for the week

earth5

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where can I find the "Articles of Faith"? (sounds suspiously like a religious document to me!)

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Most we sites will give you those articles of faith.

I found the copy of the Apostles Crede or Nicen Crede the other day developed by 500 bishops in 325 AD makes for a very intersting read.

Especially when you consider them to this day underpin Catholic, Lutheran & Anglican churches as well as others.

Oh what a fascinating church history (his story) we have.

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Reply to : earth5hey earth like my new suit?

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Well, I like your new suit FG, even if earthy doesn't  - very sauve and sophisticated

and is that your backyard in the background??

urch

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Reply to Urchin,I wish, I still hit the surf at times old habits & hobbies die hard.

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If you don't mind  a little butt in here. How available are the articles of Faith of the Revival Fellowship that John Kuhlman is "currently" espousing ??? I wouldn't mind a peeksie to refresh my old memories. I suppose we would be in breach of copyright if the articles were to be openly published on the web or here on the Aimoo boards ....but curiosity is sure knocking.

anon 

Yes, I'd like to get hold of those documents too! I think I should be able to though, and I'm going to post them on here regardless of copyright. I seriously doubt that they would "sue" me for it - esp since they probably wouldn't know my real name, and even if they did, it would be hard to prove it. I have a myriad of email address!

We are a special and elect chosen group of Christians and Holy Saints, and are given, via holy intervention, a special understanding of the written word of god that allows us to discern it better and far above all other men. Yes, we may mingle with the people outside of our walls, but do not hear their thoughts, their dreams, or wisdom, for it is naught in comparison to ours and can only corrupt our close to perfect Bible texts. Brink them into our church where we can change and heal their lives via immersion into our water, our doctrine and our fellowship. Once they are fallen into line we seek to cut off communication to them from other misquided churches who would taint the fragile message that our god is trying to convey to them through elected oversight and ministers.

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Reply to : franks ghost--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Legalism is now rampant and I was handed a doc. Articles of Faith of the AOG the other day and the staement made if any of our people were to found fellowshipping with people that believe this stuff then they have lost there salvation as far as that pastor was concerned.Extremeism, heresy,slander, all against the body of Christ. Who' s grieved the most here.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------But don't you see? This is inevitable. The schismmustdivide between your organisation and the wider world of Christendom. The Revival churches have an identity that prides itself on separatism and non-compromise. It comes down to a factor that you are putting in the'too hard'

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Reply to : franks ghost--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Legalism is now rampant and I was handed a doc. Articles of Faith of the AOG the other day and the staement made if any of our people were to found fellowshipping with people that believe this stuff then they have lost there salvation as far as that pastor was concerned.Extremeism, heresy,slander, all against the body of Christ. Who' s grieved the most here.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------But don't you see? This is inevitable. Thechasmmustdivide wider between your organisation and the wider world of Christendom. The Revival churches have an identity that prides itself on separatism and non-compromise. It comes down to a factor that you are putting in the't

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Well thought out and said moth man

earth5

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Moth this is excellent.

I'll give some serious thought to this.

To all of us toungue speakers, a comment     " by this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love one for another".

As For me , Too long a tinkling brass. I 've been sold a pup, it's time to develop some fruit, thanks for the dung I'll see if I can run the roots down a bit deeper and come up with something that better reflects the Lord of Glory. 

Thanks again.

 

 

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Frankie my man how ya doing, just got back form melb,DO I LIKE YOUR SUIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ???You must have lost a bit of weight bro, seems a bit loose and the grey hair has that come from all the stuff and worry you are dealing with in the "fellowship"Nice old photo though.Must really try and catch up sometime soon give me a call.

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Well Earth, what do you know Mrs Frank just went to Melb. this morning. Doing some shopping with miss Frank who just turned 21.

Oh yeh, the hair is going grey, man this fellowship is really headed down a one way street.

Moth's comments were right on the money.

Below I'd like to make a very brief comment on Reformation.

"It appears that for one to be reformed be ready for continual split and schism".

One of our newest members was ex Brethen, back in 1986 while he was in NZ he attended theological college and he put together a simple paper which he gave me on the 8th Aug. It speaks the history the separation of the "open" & "exclusive brethen" and there migration across the world especially there imigration from England as a result of persecution and establishment in NZ.

History looks as if it may have been repeating itself for a few hundred years. History of the Brethren is tied to the history of the anabaptist, which are tied to the reformers of 1400's &1500's and so on.

Splits schisms, split schism on and on ---- you don't think like us, so were off , or otherwise off you go.

The same tired old arguments, Jesus, Man or God 300 AD, ,

Pope or anti hierachy  1050 AD. (Roman or Orthodox). Plus many more of course.

 Baptism sprinkling or full immersion 1400 AD, (Anabaptists).

Great awakenings across America- First 1730-1740's , second 1800's -1830's, third 1880's-1900's, fourth 1960's-1970's. Awakening by necessity, splits and schism's from establishment.

Lutherans, Calvanists, Anglicans, Methodists, baptists, Amish, Hutterites, Mennonites, Brethren. On and on

And then here we come the great Pentecostals 1890's

Welsh revival, Cornish, India, Azusa 1906. On and on refining, separating.

Splits, reformations, new name tags again and again and again.

Revival Centres after about 4 name changes in since 1948,

 puts out a new morals policy in 1995. splits the work. By the way it wasn't the policy that split the work, it was the leadership using it to there end. Power plays.

Now the newly named Revival Fellowships' council is designing it's separation policy to delivered in Nov.2007. Once again the policy won't split or cause schism, it will be the debate and politics that surrounds the doc. The group think mentality of the current Council. Watch this space as the whole power struggle, control for the minds of the people who think like us, while parting company with the ones who dont, repeats itself.

What true apostle or shepherd would foist such a diabolical thing upon his flock?

What true mother would want to seperate it's child (wisdom of Solomon)?

So hows that 12 years before we a further looking to cause a schism.

I know it sounds rather funny but I almost gain a reasect for the Roman Catholics holding it largeley together over it's chequered 1700 year or so history. ( did I say that )?

Who can give me the quote and said, in respect to those ignorant of history are condemned to repeat it.?

I'd like to again thank Sott for comment we are a doctrinally lazy, we are also theologically lazy.

I've tried to imagine the 500 bishops coming together to thrash out the Nicean Crede in 325 AD and on that I imagine the 12 Revival fellowship council members coming together to discuss the separation policy or anything for that matter.

Why has my skin just started to crawl.......

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Reply to : earth5Frankie my man how ya doing, just got back form melb,DO I LIKE YOUR SUIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ???You must have lost a bit of weight bro, seems a bit loose and the grey hair has that come from all the stuff and worry you are dealing with in the "fellowship"Nice old photo though.Must really try and catch up sometime soon give me a call.Well what do you know Mrs Frank just went to Melb. this morning. Doing some shopping with miss Frank who just turned 21.Oh yeh the hair is going grey, man this fellowship is really headed down a one way street.Moth's comments were just right on the money.On another note one of our newest members was ex Brethen back in 1986 while he was at NZ he attended theological colle

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why frankie my man you are sounding quite disinfranchised with things in general.

Its hard when you find out that things you have always taken as right and the way it is, isnt, makes you angry, dissapointed, almost lost in some ways.

I know that I am still on a jouney of discovery, learning and being more tolerant, some days are easy othere's are a stuggle.

easy to take the boy out of revival, hard to take revival out of the boy

earth5 

Reply to : franks ghost

Hi FG

There's a saying...... ' man learns from history that man learns nothing from history ' - I think that sums us humans up pretty well. 

Moth, good on ya mate - an awesome post!

The point that RF are missing with their Sep policy is that when God calls us, he calls us to HIM, not to a particular denomination or church.  If we can't live peacably with each other and respect each other as Christians, how will those who are not Christians understand Christianity? What did Jesus say was the most important commandment ? Love the Lord your God with all your heart.... and love your neighbour as yourself  - aren't these our work mates, worldly friends, AND fellow Christians.  I refuse to be bound by their policy, I will follow scripture and I will love my fellow brethren in the RF, whether they love me or not/talk to me or not/acknowledge me or not.

Another point is that Jesus said we should love even our enemies - which makes a absolute farce of the Separation policy.  According to these words of Jesus, the RFshould LOVE us ' backsliders' (as we are known) including all of us who are still following after the things of God - instead of ' shunning'  us etc.

I have been reading an awesome book recently called " Dancing with Destiny" by Jill Austin. She believes (and I agree) that the Church (the body of Christ) is experiencing a huge transition at the present time. More and more people are hungry for God and desire a greater intimacy with Him. If we continue on with the belief that just because we have the 'gift of tongues we have the Holy Spirit'  we will not move into the intimate relationship that the Father desires us to have with Jesus. The Holy Spirit is NOT speaking in tongues (as the RF believe) but the Holy Spirit is a teacher, a friend, an equipper and he brings comfort, illumination and revelation. We need to have relationship with the person of the Holy Spirit as He is the one who brings revelation of the Father and of the Son. (if any of you have been in church when the Holy Spirit comes into/on the meeting, you will understand this) The Holy Spirit comes in and shakes the church and shakes everything in our lives at times. He brings a refiner's fire because his job is to nurture and to heal - He awakens our hearts and we begin to long for deeper relationship.  His job is to get the Bride ready for her Bridegroom. How I long to be made ready!

Urch

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Too long a tinkling brass. I 've been sold a pup, it's time to develop some fruit, thanks for the dung I'll see if I can run the roots down a bit deeper and come up with something that better reflects the Lord of Glory.

There is plenty cooking behind the scenes, I think the next council meeting set for Nov at the Gold Coast will be a beauty.

"The only separation my bible talks about is separation from the world and sin".

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Hi Frank,

'Sold a pup' ... still using Lloydisms hey?  The expression never made much sense to me, but it always did sound good coming from Lloyd's lips. Good on ya for wanting to let God use you to reflect His glory, but I gotta say again, though, that sending roots down deeper into the idea that 'no tongues = no Holy Spirit' makes it harder to produce biblical fruit, since the idea (IMO, and I've been there and done that  but I still speak in tongues) just isn't biblical.

But seriously, you've been saying for months now that "big things" are going to happen, which I've interpreted as an imminent split of Toowomba or SE Qld from the RF. But nothing happens. You imply that your pastor abhors the SA/ACT/NSW versions of the 'Separation Policy', yet he apparently hasn't severed organisational ties with the perpetrators. What gives? Do you guys really have a line drawn in the sand, or will you continue to seek the fellowship of people who by what seems to be your own admission are effectively 'wolves' devouring and scatterring the flock. Maybe I've got this wrong. I really would love to be enlightened.

What do you think of Moth's point that your idea that 'no tongues = no Holy Spirit (ant therefore = no salvation)' inherently separates you from virtually all Christendom, and your belief in 'the trinity" separates you from the oneness pentecostals who do share your belief in 'no tongues = no salvation"? Perhaps those promoting a 'Separation Policy' are being more consistent than you and the official Toowomba RF stance? After all if those writers who write the books you get can't get 'the salvation message' right, why should you look to them for edification on anything scriptural?

Anyway, best wishes for you and yours.

PS I'll be back in a week or two.

The Good News - or the Bad News?

By Nick Greer

What do we mean, when we talk about the gospel, or the 'good news'? If you ask a Revival Centre person, they will often respond, "Repent, be baptised, and receive the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in other tongues"!

Sounds interesting, but that's just not the gospel. The gospel is defined in the Scriptures in many places. Paul defines it as follows:

I would remind you, brothers and sisters, of the good news [gospel] that I proclaimed to you, which in turn you received, in which also you stand, through which also you are saved, if you hold firmly to the message that I proclaimed to you - unless you have come to believe in vain. For I handed on to you as of first importance what I in turn had received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures, and that he was buried, and that he was raised on the third day. (Corinthians 15:1-4)

So, for Paul, the Gospel is that Jesus died and rose again, not tongues. Similar statements are found elsewhere. For example, 2 Timothy 2:8:

Remember Jesus Christ, raised from the dead, descended from David. This is my gospel. See also, Romans 1:1-5 and 1 Tim. 2:5-7.

Notice that the believer's gospel is Jesus. Jesus died and rose again - the supreme sacrifice and the conqueror of death. This is the gospel which was preached by Paul and the others (Acts 2:22-32; 3:13,14; 4:1-2, 10-12, 33; 5: 30-32; 8:30-35; 10:39-44; 13:26-44; 16:30-31; 20:20-24), not tongues!

So, what if we preach a gospel of tongues instead of the real gospel about Jesus? Is it really okay to put a such an emphasis on tongues? No! Believers can preach no gospel but the gospel of Christ:

There are some who are confusing you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should proclaim to you a gospel contrary to what we proclaimed to you, let that one be accursed. As we have said before, so now I repeat, if anyone proclaims to you a gospel contrary to what you received, let that one be accursed! (Galatians 1:8,9).

If more is needed, note the word similarities in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 and in Galatians 1:8,9.

In his letter to the Corinthians, Paul wrote about:

...the good news [gospel] that I proclaimed to you, which in turn you received... that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures, and that he was buried, and that he was raised on the third day.

Then, in his letter to the Galatians he warned about:

...a gospel contrary to what we proclaimed to you... [and] a gospel contrary to what you received.

He was talking about the same thing!

In other words, don't stray from the gospel - the gospel about Jesus' death and resurrection. A gospel of tongues instead of a gospel of Jesus? No! Accept no substitute!

But seriously, you've been saying for months now that "big things" are going to happen, which I've interpreted as an imminent split of Toowomba or SE Qld from the RF. But nothing happens. You imply that your pastor abhors the SA/ACT/NSW versions of the 'Separation Policy', yet he apparently hasn't severed organisational ties with the perpetrators. What gives? Do you guys really have a line drawn in the sand, or will you continue to seek the fellowship of people who by what seems to be your own admission are effectively 'wolves' devouring and scatterring the flock. Maybe I've got this wrong. I really would love to be enlightened.

You are in a hurry edgey is that why you called by this name. Churches and there schisms have been happening for 2000 years. Just be patient , after all it's only been 12 years since the last fiasco. The separation policy is rather new to many in the church, most in facyt have never heard of it. From what I gather LLoyd floated the morals policy for years before he used it to his political end in 95.

Actually Russ help BB co-write his version.

What do you think of Moth's point that your idea that 'no tongues = no Holy Spirit (ant therefore = no salvation)' inherently separates you from virtually all Christendom, and your belief in 'the trinity" separates you from the oneness pentecostals who do share your belief in 'no tongues = no salvation"? Perhaps those promoting a 'Separation Policy' are being more consistent than you and the official Toowomba RF stance? After all if those writers who write the books you get can't get 'the salvation message' right, why should you look to them for edification on anything scriptural?

We gotta start somewhere, on-edge, I agree with moth on no tongues no Holy Ghost (did he say that)? Separates us from all Christondom? I did however think  the Uninted pentecostals (UPC) of which there are several million held to the same belief.

At the recent Hillsong conference a large seekers meeting with the pastor in charge praying for approx 500 people who acknowledged they had not received the Holy Spirit. On that occassion just weeks ago some 120+ came out in tongues and the pastor in charge commented "what on earth are your leaders doing for this many people to not have yet recieved the Holy Spirit."

On - edge, I'm not going to pretend that I don't believe the initial experience of tongues for me was the infilling of the Holy Spirit. I was a member of the Baptists for 11 years and was never even encouraged to be baptised let alone have the salvation message explained any further than "make a decision for Christ". 60's & 70's Jesus movement jargon. My walk started in 1981 baptised , Spirit Filled (speaking in tounges). If I was to make a point this is not the Gospel. The Gospel is Jesus and him crucified the nub of all reality right there. The mistake any pentecostal can make is that at the point of that experience with the Holy Spirit then your salvation is secure. RFers have fallen into the trap, so many of my friends and my own family are cruisers. They think that was it, at that point game over, lets just sit wait and have fun while we wait for the imenent return of the Lord.

What about the walk? What about the fruit? What about the working out your salvation with fear and trembling? What about a fight which we are suposed to be engaged in , equipped with armour?

The so much more part of the walk (relationship), which you get lolled into thinking is not necessary to explore because you think your saved when you spoke in tongues.

What about the love chapter? corinth 13. What about by this shall all men know that you are my disciples?

I'm all for tongues, but tongues & Holy Ghost are the beginning not the end.

Righteousness, Reconciliation & Blood of Jesus (atonement).

So much to say , such a slow typer.........

Further developing the thought of seperation. I guess the uproar in all of Asia as the Gospel was being preached throughout all Jewry. Was the fact that this was a presumtous seperation policy. How could anyone possible say that for a Jew to have a relationship with God he needed to follow this new path. After all they could follow their own heritage and claim Abraham and the patriachs as there fathers.

God did in fact seperate. However it was his plan to use the church to provoke Israel to jealousy. Effectively giving a chance to be regrafted back into the vine.

I really am puzzled though the 1500's saw the reformation and it was claimed that the Roman Catholic Church was the great apostacy. Yet the reformers have proven to be the greatest bunch of seperationists ever with every brand and style claiming to be the right and only way. 500 years of division and schism, we at RF or RCI are really just a product of the whole affair.

Just look at the Anglican style of Communion or the Hierachy style of pastoring. Our Meeting programs and formats, passive laity, subservient style all round.

So yes we hold on to the model of running a Church but what does God want?

What will honour Him and his Son? and Holy Spirit. Because with the initial seperation of the first believers there was nothing but trouble & persecution from then on, and yet in 325 AD they were still able to russle up 500 bishops from across Asia to develop the Crede. And we are still here arguing the point 2000 years later. Oh so puzzling.

The parable of the sower and the seed is also interesting with the instuction " don't pluck them up lest you take up the wheat with tares".

Is that don't try and seperate before the time, thats Gods job.?

In the mean time we walk our walks, upholding the principals of such a walk loving the brotherhood, being led of the Spirit, seeking a deeper relationship with Jesus, striving for Holiness rather happiness. Looking to enter the Hill of the Lord "clean hands and a pure heart".

 

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Our God is an awsome God. But boy he can be hard to find under all the religous stuff.

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Frank, God is not hard to find if you completely forget about religion and work on relationship instead. I believe that in the past we have been ' taught'  religion but not about relationship and, for me anyway, it is only when you leave a ' religious organisation'  and look back that you can see that that is what it is.

I know that you feel that it is different in your assembly, but (this may sound harsh but I am not saying this out of bitterness but out of revelation) I believe that the RF/RC has a spirit of oppression over them, possibly because of their teaching that you MUST speak in tongues to be saved - there is no other way for them.  Scripture tells us clearly that  we must believe in the gospel message to be saved and nowhere does it say that ' you must speak in tongues to be saved' .  (if you can show me differently please feel free to correct me)  Whoever does not accept the gospel message as salvation, is under law and not under grace. Law and grace do not mix.  When we are taught that we have to ' perform' in some way in order to please God / oversight we are under law.  When the grace of Christ is fully awake in our lives, we no longer need to 'perform' or do something due to fear or because of guilt or out of shame, but we do it through love.

Galations 5:1 "It was for freedom that Christ set us free, therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery".   The NLT says  "So Christ has really set us free. Now make sure that you stay free, and don't get tied up again in slavery to the law".    Legalism is the yoke of slavery. It is trying to be 'spiritual' by performance, which just doesn't work. It is impossible to accept God's grace while struggling with legalism.  There are some who would use the Bible as a hammer to pound the flock into submission rather than as a guide to lead the flock into grace.

For some of us who have left RF, it can take years to come out from under the legalistic cloud and to finally have the courage to walk freely in the grace of God.  I heard this explanation recently which I thought was great. Grace comes to us in two dimensions, vertical and horizontal (just look at the cross on which Jesus died for us). Vertical grace centres on our relationship with God and reaches vertically from us to God. It frees us from the demands and condemnation of the Mosaic Law. Horizontal grace centres on our human relationships and goes outward like the horizontal section of the cross as we focus on reaching out to others.

Frank, as I said earlier, it takes courage to walk freely in the grace of God.

Love, Urch

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Reply to : franks ghost Our God is an awsome God. But boy he can be hard to find under all the religous stuff.

Thanks Urch,  where I am (fellowship wise) is different because I make a difference (small maybe) but the tension makes the man. I'm a servant, I have many people including my own family that I am responsible to. I've done it (the leadership thing) for too many years out of performance and legalism, just because I have had a bit of an eye opener over a few years doesn't mean it's time to flee.

I guess it's like an ordinary marraige you can choose to stay and work on it or you can choose to do what 50% do and get out. 

So don't get me wrong, I get what you say about grace , mercy, love etc etc... but the next part of that picture is using what God has given and walk with these benifits and understanding in a place that will have an impact. Actually developing these qualities.

Try doing these things in a place of resistence and know what it is to "die daily".

Listening to my ol'e friend Art Katz (deceased) the question he asked in a recent talk is what do you seek happiness or holiness. I think I choose a Holiness. I further think that Holiness comes with a degree of tention and trial.

So I here you, or though I must admit I'm over this continual line of tongues. I tried walking my walk back in the old days with the buzz of church programm to fuel my zeal. Thank God he led to me Jesus and to the Holy Ghost, this growing relationship has sustained me 26 years as of today. So my walk is not governed by the banner over the door, my walk is goverened by the depth of relationship with my God, a depth that can be assisted by tention created by a sometimes frail, imperfect, difficult etc etc, community that I've been a part of for that 26 years. I don't have to wonder what such and such are up to I know, I'm here, I have to go into bat day after day. This imperfect community is just a reflection of my imperfect 25 year marraige or my imperfect 26 year walk or how about 3 imperfect and very different children. I have a difficult business with sometimes frustrating people and situations. My cities in drought, my bank balance low, I'm 50, tention, tention tention and all this topped off with me. Yep the biggest difficulty of all is me. So here I sit with imperfect community (banner over door) and me a work in progress, oh let me get out and run to AOG, or a new House Church, TCC, COC, Edge. The list of the reformed churches is endless, the list of beliefs even longer. In the end whats got to be worked out. As far as Im concerned RELATIONSHIP (with me and my GOD) and that will be achieved by walking with Jesus in an imperfect world inside imperfect community while I'm a work in progress.

So thats it for me for a while, I'm sure I'll look back at what I wrote and see the imperfection here as well.

 

Thanks Urch,  where I am (fellowship wise) is different because I make a difference (small maybe) but the tension makes the man. I'm a servant, I have many people including my own family that I am responsible to. I've done it (the leadership thing) for too many years out of performance and legalism, just because I have had a bit of an eye opener over a few years doesn't mean it's time to flee.

That's exactly my point Frank, if we are doing it out of performance and legalism, are we doing it to please God or man? IS it time to flee from legalism and a 'performance based' walk?  For us to walk completely in grace, we need to ditch any hint of legalism.

I guess it's like an ordinary marraige you can choose to stay and work on it or you can choose to do what 50% do and get out. 

An ordinary marriage can be turned into an awesome, wonderful, exciting marriage BUT it takes BOTH partners to WANT it to make it happen.  However, we are not 'married' to the church or an organisation - we are married (or more correctly ) we are betrothed to the Bridegroom and it is He who we must draw near to.  I have discovered an awesome, wonderful, exciting relationship with my Lord and Saviour and I don't know if I personally could have done that whilst still fellowshipping where I was.

So don't get me wrong, I get what you say about grace , mercy, love etc etc... but the next part of that picture is using what God has given and walk with these benifits and understanding in a place that will have an impact. Actually developing these qualities. Try doing these things in a place of resistence and know what it is to "die daily". Listening to my ol'e friend Art Katz (deceased) the question he asked in a recent talk is what do you seek happiness or holiness. I think I choose a Holiness. I further think that Holiness comes with a degree of tention and trial.

I understand what you are saying about using what God has given us and walking where we will have an impact.   I believe the place we have the most impact is on people that do not know Christ.  I feel that for too long, we have been taught that the world is an evil place and we should avoid it all costs when in fact it is where we need to reach out to people.

I also choose holiness above happiness Frank.

So I here you, or though I must admit I'm over this continual line of tongues. I tried walking my walk back in the old days with the buzz of church programm to fuel my zeal. Thank God he led to me Jesus and to the Holy Ghost, this growing relationship has sustained me 26 years as of today. So my walk is not governed by the banner over the door, my walk is goverened by the depth of relationship with my God, a depth that can be assisted by tention created by a sometimes frail, imperfect, difficult etc etc, community that I've been a part of for that 26 years. I don't have to wonder what such and such are up to I know, I'm here, I have to go into bat day after day.

Amen to that Frank - certainly it is not about where we fellowship but our relationship with our God.

This imperfect community is just a reflection of my imperfect 25 year marraige or my imperfect 26 year walk or how about 3 imperfect and very different children. I have a difficult business with sometimes frustrating people and situations. My cities in drought, my bank balance low, I'm 50, tention, tention tention and all this topped off with me. Yep the biggest difficulty of all is me. So here I sit with imperfect community (banner over door) and me a work in progress,

We're all a work in progress Frank - we never stop learning/growing and praise God we never will.

oh let me get out and run to AOG, or a new House Church, TCC, COC, Edge. The list of the reformed churches is endless, the list of beliefs even longer. In the end whats got to be worked out. As far as Im concerned RELATIONSHIP (with me and my GOD) and that will be achieved by walking with Jesus in an imperfect world inside imperfect community while I'm a work in progress.

I do need to say here Frank, that I did not just 'do a runner' from RF without careful consideration, much prayer and a total revelation from God. Even after this revelation, I still weighed up carefully my decision.

So thats it for me for a while, I'm sure I'll look back at what I wrote and see the imperfection here as well.

Don't sell yourself short Frankie - not one of us is perfect, there is only one that is perfect!

Love in Christ, Urch

do need to say here Frank, that I did not just 'do a runner' from RF without careful consideration, much prayer and a total revelation from God. Even after this revelation, I still weighed up carefully my decision.

Please Urch don't take any judgement from me on whatever your decision was, that is the last thing I would be infering. I am considering my own stuff, marraige, community, family , friends etc. I simply can't imagine that choosing another church community would make all that much difference. Different Banner, different problems.

I watch people (friends & family included) who jump out of marraiges and oh that honeymoon period is so lovely, those first 2 years and a real treat.

So I thankou for your carefully worded response I really appreciate the time to think and respond.

God's Richest Blessing.

Please Urch don't take any judgement from me on whatever your decision was, that is the last thing I would be infering. I am considering my own stuff, marraige, community, family , friends etc. I simply can't imagine that choosing another church community would make all that much difference. Different Banner, different problems.

Hey Frank, I'm not feeling at all as though you are judging me, so don't worry about that. In fact, I don't really fuss too much about other's opinions of me at all - it is God that I want to please.  You are in an obvious time of reflection - not a bad thing.  It is so easy to just cruise along in life and not take the time to reflect on where we're heading, and it's a wise man who does take the time.

I watch people (friends & family included) who jump out of marraiges and oh that honeymoon period is so lovely, those first 2 years and a real treat.

I also find it sad that so many marriages fail, but my personal belief is that the enemy knows where best to do his ' hit and runs'.  He always uses the area where we have weaknesses to attack  - and this is often in our relationships.  I am extremely blessed to have been married for many years and still enjoy our marriage and our time together.  We relate well to people of all ages but particularly the youngies as we see/treat them as possible future leaders of the church/nation etc. It is our job as the ' older' generation to encourage and uplift them in their walks and to speak words of life over them.  I LOVE our young people in our church, I love their passion and enthusiasm (sadly lacking in RF) for Jesus and their strength and willingness to stand in the gap for their generation.

So I thankou for your carefully worded response I really appreciate the time to think and respond.

Thank you Frank, for being an open and honest person who, like many of us, is genuinely seeking answers to questions that we all ask or have asked at some stage of our walks.

May God bless you abundantly

Urch x x

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Reply to : earth5So freedom, interesting can you define the sort of freedom you mean?

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The freedom to fellowship with who you want to and where you want to how you want to. YOu may feel that you have that already, but its only a shadow of what is available for you.

To not have to feel you need to check in with whoever to see if this is ok to do or that is ok to do, your circumstance may differ, but the general member of the rever's this is normal practice/culture.

To be able to go and visit another church/assembly without having to get the "oversites" permission

The freedom to have an array of wonderful men and women of God speak into you life and that of your family.

The freedom to dissagree with something and not be punished, or put out of fellowship or stood down from a postion within the church. (aka our friend in NSW)

The freedom to go to other church conferences and not be ostrisized, stood down, put out of fellowship (aka Bob C)

The freedom to acknowledge the body of Christ in all its differing dimensions and flavours.

Frank G you may feel that you experience this in some dimension and of what I know of you, you do however the culture of the ref/rci is oppressive, dictorial and cultish.

Brother there is SOOOOOO much more out there, not easy to get your head around some things I know, and all places have "there things" to deal with, however there really is much more you can tap into.

I want you to have it all, I want to be able to help, exult encourage you to be all you can be in Christ and to experience all that he has available to you

Love in Christ

earth5 

So freedom, interesting can you define the sort of freedom you mean?

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Frank, I know you are asking earthman, but I wouldn't mind commenting if I may. I recently read a book called 'The Grace Awakening' - a 30 day devotional walk in the freedom of grace. 

A brief overview;  ' A new movement is on the horizon. It is a movement of freedom, a joyful release from the things that have bound us for far too long. More and more Christians are realising that the man-made restrictions and legalistic regulations under which they have been living have not come from the God of grace but have been enforced by people who do not want others to be free. It is a movement that is beginning to sweep across the country and is long overdue and fits the times in which we are living. When the 16th century European Reformers brandished the torch of freedom and stood against the religious legalists of their era, grace was their battle cry; salvation by grace alone, a walk of faith without fear of eternal damnation and condemnation. The church hated them and called them heretics.  When the 18th and early 19th century revival (John Wesley, Jonathon Edwards etc) spread across Britain and into America, it was again grace that led the way. Again there was strong resistance from those who frowned upon their message of freedom in Christ.  Interestlngly, that movement became known as the ' Great Awakening'.  Today there is another awakening sweeping the world and perhaps it could be defined as the ' Grace Awakening'  a message whose time has come.  There is nothing that has the power to change us from within like the freedom that comes through grace.  Through grace comes the free gift of salvation, the gift of life, of laughter, of music, of beauty, of friendship and of forgiveness. Those who claim the freedom God offers, gain an appreciation for the gifts that come with life. You will begin to cultivate a desire for authentic faith rather than endure a religion based on superficial performance.

Ephesians 2:5-9 But God being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loves us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus, in order that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness towards us in Christ Jesus.  For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one may boast.

Frank, there is freedom in God's amazing grace

Urch

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Reply to : franks ghostSo freedom, interesting can you define the sort of freedom you mean?

Interesting stuff, I've spent the last few months doing a study of church history and yes I find what is recorded very challenging.

Thanks Urch, I love you breaking in, I think the question might have been out of Earths depth LOL, his style is the short shark comment on SHOUT BOX , still LOL........

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Reply to : franks ghostReply to : earth5So freedom, interesting can you define the sort of freedom you mean?The freedom to fellowship with who you want to and where you want to Oh Earth I must apolagise I missed you big response I went to Urch's secxond page and made some comment without evr seeing you, will you forgive my frivolity.

Thanks for nthe comment both of you,

Download a PDF Copy of The Purpose of the Wilderness

FG,

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Reply to : earth5Reply to : franks ghostReply to : earth5So freedom, interesting can you define the sort of freedom you mean?The freedom to fellowship with who you want to and where you want to Oh Earth I must apolagise I missed you big response I went to Urch's secxond page and made some comment without evr seeing you, will you forgive my frivolity.Thanks for nthe comment both of you,Download a PDF Copy of The Purpose of the WildernessFG,

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forgive,,,,,, HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM ?

as its in the contract (the bible) I have no choice but to forgive.

OUT MY DEPTH INDEED How rude! sure your not sott indisguise lol

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Reply to : franks ghostReply to : earth5Reply to : franks ghostReply to : earth5So freedom, interesting can you define the sort of freedom you mean?The freedom to fellowship with who you want to and where you want to Oh Earth I must apolagise I missed you big response I went to Urch's secxond page and made some comment without evr seeing you, will you forgive my frivolity.Thanks for nthe comment both of you,Download a PDF Copy of The Purpose of the WildernessFG,forgive,,,,,, HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM ?as its in the contract (the bible) I have no choice but to forgive.OUT MY DEPTHINDEEDHow rude! sure your not sott indisguise lol

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Oh no Iv'e been found out I have been having a very one sided philisophical argument with myself for the last 10 months. With Frank just being the fall guy for my super ego (sott).

Super Overbearing Theological Tyrant. I guess it had to come out at some stage. It took a whiz kid like the old Earth 5 1/2 , to find me out.

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Reply to : earth5Reply to : franks ghostReply to : earth5So freedom, interesting can you define the sort of freedom you mean?The freedom to fellowship with who you want to and where you want to Oh Earth I must apolagise I missed you big response I went to Urch's secxond page and made some comment without evr seeing you, will you forgive my frivolity.Thanks for nthe comment both of you,Download a PDF Copy of The Purpose of the Wilderness FG,

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Seems to have a ring of Jehovas Witness about it.

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Really so you read it?