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Didaktikon
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Date Posted:24/08/2009 10:55 PMCopy HTML

Good morning, all.

Given that most of the people who visit here have been (or are) Revivalists of one sort or another, and consequently, place a significant premium on the Acts of the Apostles; I thought it prudent to introduce the following topic for general discussion. I'd like to propose that one of the features that's particularly significant in the writings of Luke, both with respect to his Gospel and to the Acts, is that he perceives "salvation" in two distinctive ways. First, that "salvation" is understood as a 
physical reality, in the "saving" of the person from bodily harm. Second, and in light of recent conversations here perhaps more significantly, Luke understands "salvation" to involve the joining of people into the community of God: as a corporate reality.

In my opinion one of the basest of errors propagated by Revivalism is the mistaken view that "salvation" is a strictly "personal" matter. It's my position that such an erroneous perspective owes more to the Western penchant for "individualism" than it does to the biblical witness, and that as such it's a particularly dangerous and destructive approach, spiritually. And I offer here and now that Luke's writings provide a very good starting point for considering the matter in detail.

Blessings,

Ian

email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:Salvation according to Luke

Date Posted:24/08/2009 11:08 PMCopy HTML

 Hi Ian,

Would you please define "Salvation". What do you interpret that word to mean?

Tommo
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Re:Salvation according to Luke

Date Posted:24/08/2009 11:22 PMCopy HTML

Good morning, Thommo.

Would you please define "Salvation". What do you interpret that word to mean?

There are several Hebrew and Greek words that have been translated as "save" and its cognates into English (with each having it's own nuances), so it's always necessary to consider each biblical passage on it's own merits in order to properly establish what is intended in each specific case. However, by way of an overarching definition of sorts, "salvation" might be thought of as encapsulating the notion of "preservation from harm", whether physical or spiritual.

Blessings,

Ian

email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:Salvation according to Luke

Date Posted:25/08/2009 1:02 AMCopy HTML


Ian

In my opinion one of the basest of errors propagated by Revivalism is the mistaken view that "salvation" is a strictly "personal" matter. It's my position that such an erroneous perspective owes more to the Western penchant for "individualism" than it does to the biblical witness, and that as such it's a particularly dangerous and destructive approach, spiritually. And I offer here and now that Luke's writings provide a very good starting point for considering the matter in detail.

What actual evidence do you have for your opinion, and are you comfortable discounting the personal spiritual experiences of millions? What evidence do you have that your soulless, loveless, legalistic idea of christianity was what god had in mind?

Galien
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Re:Salvation according to Luke

Date Posted:25/08/2009 1:12 AMCopy HTML

Galien,

I appreciate that objective, dispassionate consideration of Scripture is largely beyond you, so I suggest that you sit back, keep quiet and simply observe. As this thread unfolds I've no doubt that you will learn a thing or several. However, if you're unable to contain yourself, then try injecting something other than invective into the discussion.

Ian

email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:Salvation according to Luke

Date Posted:25/08/2009 1:31 AMCopy HTML



I appreciate that objective, dispassionate consideration of Scripture is largely beyond you, so I suggest that you sit back, keep quiet and simply observe. As this thread unfolds I've no doubt that you will learn a thing or several. However, if you're unable to contain yourself, then try injecting something other than invective into the discussion.

Not invective, I believe it to be a fair question. I do nothing in a dispassionate manner. It's part of my natural charm. I had more than enough of dispassionate EVERYTHING in revival. It was a wonder I didn't die of sheer bvoredom, although I remember many evenings sitting in the loungeroom of other assembly members thinking "if I have to have this bloody boring conversation ONE MORE TIME!".
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Re:Salvation according to Luke

Date Posted:25/08/2009 1:40 AMCopy HTML

So Ian, are you saying that the rhetoric we espoused that you can have a 'personal' experience with God is incorrect? That salvation is actually a corporate experience?
Didaktikon Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #7
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Re:Salvation according to Luke

Date Posted:25/08/2009 1:42 AMCopy HTML

Galien,

Not everything that takes place on this forum has to be about you. This particular thread is intended to generate discussion on an issue that's significant from a Revivalist perspective. Consequently, it's not meant to serve simply as "grist" for your "hate mill".

If you decide that you can't abide by the forum guidelines, or the intent of this particular thread, then I will simply have to "vote you off the island". Try to understand that you aren't the pivot around which everything else hinges.

Ian


email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:Salvation according to Luke

Date Posted:25/08/2009 1:44 AMCopy HTML

Galien

At the risk of being accused of toadying to Ian, I'd like to point out that "your soulless, loveless, legalistic idea of christianity " is most definitely invective. 
The evidence for Mann-made global warming is unequivocal.
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Re:Salvation according to Luke

Date Posted:25/08/2009 1:51 AMCopy HTML

Good morning, HG.

So Ian, are you saying that the rhetoric we espoused that you can have a 'personal' experience with God is incorrect? That salvation is actually a corporate experience?

What I'm suggesting is that much of the rhetoric that we, Western Christians espouse, is simply rhetoric. A good many of us (for example) are quite "hazy" when it comes to being able to describe a biblical theology or even a biblical model of "salvation". We often resort to pat, but altogether nonsensical statements that talk about "inviting Jesus into your heart", or "you can have a personal experience of God". Such statements emphasise and promote strictly the individual aspects of a "saving" relationship with God in Christ, but which pay absolutely no heed to the equally critical communal aspects.

Revivalists, however, are often even less informed about the issue then are Christians. "Meeting the Lord in the air" seems to be Longfeldian code for, "perhaps you will be 'saved', but we really don't know". The aim of this thread is to tease out (principally) what Luke had to say on the subject.

Blessings,

Ian

email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:Salvation according to Luke

Date Posted:25/08/2009 1:57 AMCopy HTML

Galien,

Not everything that takes place on this forum has to be about you. This particular thread is intended to generate discussion on an issue that's significant from a Revivalist perspective. Consequently, it's not meant to serve simply as "grist" for your "hate mill".

No, and I have no hate mill. I just always thought salvation was by grace, through faith. You seem to be saying that there are "corporate elements" we have to achieve for such free salvation to be confirmed, and without which salvation is not present. Is this correct?

If you decide that you can't abide by the forum guidelines, or the intent of this particular thread, then I will simply have to "vote you off the island". Try to understand that you aren't the pivot around which everything else hinges.

Yeah I know,there are some questions that should never be asked, I learned that in revial. But you know if I dont ask them someone else will. And Ian the last thing I think about ANYTHING is that it pivots around me.
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Re:Salvation according to Luke

Date Posted:25/08/2009 2:05 AMCopy HTML

Galien,

No, and I have no hate mill. I just always thought salvation was by grace, through faith. You seem to be saying that there are "corporate elements" we have to achieve for such free salvation to be confirmed, and without which salvation is not present. Is this correct?

Salvation is assured by God's grace, through faith in Jesus Christ. However, who says that such grace and faith is operative strictly in the individual? Second, 'salvation' itself is anything but "free"; it comes at a price. Third, "salvation" cannot take place without the "corporate elements" being operative given that "salvation" involves the restoration of Creation itself.

Ian

 
email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:Salvation according to Luke

Date Posted:25/08/2009 2:14 AMCopy HTML

Salvation is assured by God's grace, through faith in Jesus Christ. However, who says that such grace and faith is operative strictly in the individual?

Who says it isn't and why would you think it wasn't, and further, why have I not heard of this concept before?

Salvation' itself is anything but "free"; it comes at a price.

One that was paid by christ, in my understanding

Third, "salvation" cannot take place without the "corporate elements" being operative given that "salvation" involves the restoration of Creation itself.

What has led you to this conclusion?
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Re:Salvation according to Luke

Date Posted:25/08/2009 2:23 AMCopy HTML

Galien,

Salvation is assured by God's grace, through faith in Jesus Christ. However, who says that such grace and faith is operative strictly in the individual?

Who says it isn't and why would you think it wasn't, and further, why have I not heard of this concept before?

Scripture; Scripture; probably because you'd never received decent biblical teaching before.

Salvation' itself is anything but "free"; it comes at a price.

One that was paid by christ, in my understanding

Indeed. A debt paid at the cost of a brutal death on a Roman cross can hardly be thought of as "free".

Third, "salvation" cannot take place without the "corporate elements" being operative given that "salvation" involves the restoration of Creation itself.

What has led you to this conclusion?

Scripture. And that's the whole point of this thread. Now why don't you pause for a bit, mull over what's been said thus far, and let someone else have a turn?

Ian

email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:Salvation according to Luke

Date Posted:25/08/2009 2:49 AMCopy HTML

Good afternoon, John.

Indeed. What I find remarkable is that many Christians either don't know, or simply ignore, the fact that the Old Testament was the Scripture of the first Church. Furthermore, that Christianity itself was birthed from the matrix of Israel's experience of God. Given that the entire Old Testament itself bespeaks a corporate/communal "saving" relationship with and of God, how is it that modern Western Christians are, bye-and-large, completely ignorant of this critical fact? Or it's implication for us, today. That the promise was that God's Spirit would no longer dwell with Israel corporately, but in Israel corporately! That is, from Yahad/Qahal to Ekklesia/Kyriakon!

I have to agree with the broad contours of your estimation of the "me" focus that's prevalent not only in our society, but also our churches. As an aside it's interesting to note the robust change in perspective from the older magisterial hymns (You Lord/us), to the newer Hill$ong-inspired fluff-and-nonsense (I/me) that seems almost all-pervasive nowadays.

Blessings,

Ian

email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:Salvation according to Luke

Date Posted:25/08/2009 4:29 AMCopy HTML

So Ian, are you saying that the rhetoric we espoused that you can have a 'personal' experience with God is incorrect? That salvation is actually a corporate experience?
Didaktikon Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #16
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Re:Salvation according to Luke

Date Posted:25/08/2009 4:38 AMCopy HTML

Hi again, HG. 

Ultimately, I'd suggest that any "rhetoric", statement or claim to the effect that Christian "salvation" can occur without a corporate/communal aspect or trajectory, quite simply, isn't biblical. One needs to reflect on what Scripture both states and infers with respect to what "salvation", ultimately, "is". And I might be so bold as to suggest, here, that it's not simply about "having one's personal sins forgiven".

Blessings,

Ian

email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:Salvation according to Luke

Date Posted:25/08/2009 5:39 AMCopy HTML

Reply to Didaktikon

Good afternoon, John.

Indeed. What I find remarkable is that many Christians either don't know, or simply ignore, the fact that the Old Testament was the Scripture of the first Church. Furthermore, that Christianity itself was birthed from the matrix of Israel's experience of God. Given that the entire Old Testament itself bespeaks a corporate/communal "saving" relationship with and of God, how is it that modern Western Christians are, bye-and-large, completely ignorant of this critical fact? Or it's implication for us, today. That the promise was that God's Spirit would no longer dwell with Israel corporately, but in Israel corporately! That is, from Yahad/Qahal to Ekklesia/Kyriakon!

I have to agree with the broad contours of your estimation of the "me" focus that's prevalent not only in our society, but also our churches. As an aside it's interesting to note the robust change in perspective from the older magisterial hymns (You Lord/us), to the newer Hill$ong-inspired fluff-and-nonsense (I/me) that seems almost all-pervasive nowadays.

Blessings,

Ian


Ianos, you are indeed correct again..

..... and the first Christians were Jews - hence one major reason why "modern" Christians and in particularly current and former folk from the Revivalist groups such as your friend "Lukey" completely miss the context of Acts Chapter 2 altogether.. But Ianos, I had to give myself a good slap "up the side of the head" and realize that the context of Acts Chapter 2 begins in Luke 24 and not Acts 1 at all
...

 ... and to add joy to your story, I caused a minor ruckus at lecture last night steadfastly defending your/our position on the 'ton endeka apostolon' antecedent of 'esan' but alas for the opposers, I had my Greek Text with me...

And I don't say this to flatter you but out of due respect I must say that you're awesome dude !!

cheerios Ianos

Metanoia

PS - you've guessed it the "opposers" are pentes...
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Re:Salvation according to Luke

Date Posted:25/08/2009 5:58 AMCopy HTML

Then turning toward the woman, he said to Simon, “Do you see this woman? I entered your house; you gave me no water for my feet, but she has bathed my feet with her tears and dried them with her hair. You gave me no kiss, but from the time I came in she has not stopped kissing my feet. You did not anoint my head with oil, but she has anointed my feet with ointment. Therefore, I tell you, her sins, which were many, have been forgiven; hence she has shown great love. But the one to whom little is forgiven, loves little.” Then he said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.” But those who were at the table with him began to say among themselves, “Who is this who even forgives sins?” And he said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

The above passage is taken from the Gospel According to Luke, chapter seven, verses 44 through 50. It recounts the words of Jesus, spoken in the company of others, but directed to a woman who acted in faith. It includes the key theological words "faith", "saved", and "peace". It also very clearly records the fact that Jesus specifically stated that the woman's
sins are forgiven.

Our account demonstrates the concrete effects of the gospel event upon an individual who believes. Given what I've proposed about "salvation", as such was understood by Luke the Evangelist, what can we determine from both the generalities and specifics of this encounter with the pre-crucified Lord? (Some hints: consider her sex, the timing and location of the occurrence, the social situation in which the events took place, and how they would have been perceived by those in attendance).

Blessings,

Ian

email: didaktikon@gmail.com
Didaktikon Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #19
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Re:Salvation according to Luke

Date Posted:25/08/2009 6:19 AMCopy HTML

Hi, Eric.

Well I'm certainly glad that you were able to demonstrate to your peers, and successfully defend, the church's historic position on what took place at Pentecost. However, I would ask you (again) to tone down a little, the kudos that you sling my way every now and then. I don't really need the acclaim, and I'm afraid that it often plays into the hands of certain "nay-sayers".

Thanks, and blessings.

Ian

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Re:Salvation according to Luke

Date Posted:25/08/2009 6:47 AMCopy HTML


Stating the obvious is our savation is through genuine love for Jesus the Christ. In this example we see the woman not just believe in Him but act out her faith. One little aside in my KJV it states "her sins which ARE many". Your version states WERE, which not knowing the Greek leaves me unsure og the correct translation, but yours makes more sense. Its interesting this woman is totaly saved, totaly forgiven and no mention of baptism or speaking in tongues. All is possible through Christ. I am a pretty simple sort of fella but I have learnt following Christ first through the Bible is the way to salvation, and a content time in this part of our jouney on earth.
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Re:Salvation according to Luke

Date Posted:25/08/2009 6:55 AMCopy HTML

Just a question. I thought I would slip it in here as it is salvation related in the Book of Acts written by Luke. In ch10 Cornelius the centurian who God used, a devout man. What for want of a better word, was his religion?
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Re:Salvation according to Luke

Date Posted:25/08/2009 8:12 AMCopy HTML

Shoes,

We'll touch on justification soon enough, but one needs to lay the foundation before one starts the brickwork.

Rob,

Cornelius followed Judaism, but as a "God-fearer" rather than as a Roman "converted" Jew.

Blessings,

Ian

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Re:Salvation according to Luke

Date Posted:25/08/2009 8:40 AMCopy HTML

Thanks Ian, its nice to read scripture and be able to somehow picture in your head what its talking about. Need all the pieces of the puzzle to put the picture together.
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Re:Salvation according to Luke

Date Posted:25/08/2009 11:03 PMCopy HTML

Good morning, Rob.

Stating the obvious is our salvation is through genuine love for Jesus the Christ. In this example we see the woman not just believe in Him but act out her faith.

I think it important to point out that the issue of "love" is actually reversed when it comes to salvation: we can be saved through Christ's genuine love for us. Our love for him grows as a response to the fact that "...he first loved us" (1 John 4:19). Your second point is quite valid, in that "belief" and "faith" are inextricably linked. In fact, the two Greek words are based on the same root, with "believe" being the verbal form and "faith" being the noun. Important to understand from a theological perspective, in the New Testament we very frequently find the Greek word for "believe" being linked with the Greek preposition for "in" followed by either Jesus or God as the object. In normal Greek usage, the preposition that follows would ordinarily be "that". So the Christian "believes in Jesus as Christ"; rather than simply "believing that Jesus is Christ". The distinction, and the outcome which results, is significant!

One little aside in my KJV it states "her sins which ARE many". Your version states WERE, which not knowing the Greek leaves me unsure og the correct translation, but yours makes more sense.

For what it's worth, the additional commentary in the KJV isn't original.

Its interesting this woman is totaly saved, totaly forgiven and no mention of baptism or speaking in tongues.

Indeed. But then again, Revivalists have no real conception of what is meant by the term "salvation": it's intent, scope or limitations. I'd like to pose a few questions in order to advance this discussion a little. Do you think Jesus was making a statement about the woman's eternity, or her temporal circumstances? And second, what do you think would have been the reaction of the people who heard Jesus' words? How would they have been affected, and what should have been the outcome?

Blessings,

Ian

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Re:Salvation according to Luke

Date Posted:25/08/2009 11:56 PMCopy HTML

Good morning Ian,

I think that Jesus was refering to the woman's eternal state? I think the affect on the others that heard Jesus' words would hopefully be that they would leave their works/law type of worship for a more sacrificial love to Jesus that their sins may also be forgivin.
regards Rob.

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Re:Salvation according to Luke

Date Posted:26/08/2009 12:13 AMCopy HTML

Hi again, Robb.

Okay. What indications in the text led you to believe that Jesus had in mind the woman's eternal state? And based on the text itself, who were the people (or what sorts of people) were in the company that Jesus was enjoying when he addressed this situation? You may recall that I indicated at the start of this thread, that Luke had a specific interest in the corporate/communal effects of "salvation". Using this premise as a point-of-departure, what kinds of reactions/conclusions do you think Luke might have been hoping to tease out?

Blessings,

Ian

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Re:Salvation according to Luke

Date Posted:26/08/2009 4:36 AMCopy HTML

Hi Ian, been out cutting wood and havn't really read passage properly but I am thinking along the lines of that Jesus was not in a position to save the woman from eathly law and in c7v50 when he states"Thy faith hath saved thee" I am thinking he is talking more about her eternal salvation. Also more on the theme of Gentile and Jew both being able to enter into god's salvation. This is corporate to some extent?Will study it in a bit more detail tonight.

Thanks Rob

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Re:Salvation according to Luke

Date Posted:26/08/2009 12:27 PMCopy HTML



Ok, thought I’d give this a burl…

 

undoubtedly Ian, you will correct me where I've erred, or have detoured off the subject at hand ;)

The woman’s faith in Jesus Christ, which she had expressed through her works of love (ie kissing Jesus’ feet and anointing them with perfume etc) saved her from the (eternal) penalty of her multitude of sins up to that particular point in time?

Therefore, it was ‘saved’ in the context of spiritual as opposed to physical harm and therefore eternal as opposed to temporal 'salvation'.…(?)


As the woman was forgiven much, (even more considering the context back then that she was a woman and even less worthy/ deserving of such?) she loved Jesus all the more, and acted accordingly, (we could see she had faith in him before Jesus even said it because of her described actions).

 

I believe Luke was teasing out the whole idea, that if we have faith in Jesus we will act out that faith in works of love towards others ie. serving one another in the body of Christ, in particular: the corporate bit… I think?

ie. Just like in Luke 10 v25-
..The parable of the good Samaritan, where an expert in the law of Moses asks Jesus “What must I do to have eternal life?”, and Jesus responds “what do the scriptures say? How do you understand them?” to which the man answers (v27) “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind”, and “Love your neighbour as yourself (again, expressing eternal salvation's corporate focus) Jesus then answers “You have answered correctly, Do this and you will live” (NIV) – or in the CEV, “and you will have eternal life”. So, we can see how eternal salvation does not depend upon just our individual selves acting alone trying to impress God and please him by loving just him alone but rather it is corporate in that it also depends on how we interact/care/show love/use our gifts to serve others: or rather as in Paul’s address to the Galatians: Gal 5:6 The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love which is further expounded upon in verse 13 (same chpt) .. You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another humbly in love. 14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: Love your neighbour as yourself.

 


Jesus then tells her to go in peace.. the peace that her sins have been forgiven and she has been saved from their penalty.



RDP


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Re:Salvation according to Luke

Date Posted:26/08/2009 11:24 PMCopy HTML

Good morning, RDP.

Ok, thought I’d give this a burl …undoubtedly Ian, you will correct me where I've erred, or have detoured off the subject at hand.

Well, I wonder if that's even going to be necessary.

The woman’s faith in Jesus Christ, which she had expressed through her works of love (ie kissing Jesus’ feet and anointing them with perfume etc) saved her from the (eternal) penalty of her multitude of sins up to that particular point in time? Therefore, it was ‘saved’ in the context of spiritual as opposed to physical harm and therefore eternal as opposed to temporal 'salvation'.…(?)

As you very rightly pointed out, the woman's faith was expressed through an act of deferential service. It would've taken incredible courage for her to approach Jesus, given the company that he was in, and the state that she was in (ergo she must have recognised in Jesus someone who not only could but would make a difference to her circumstances). Now whether or not the "salvation" was eternal or temporal, or perhaps eternal and temporal, we'll consider shortly.

As the woman was forgiven much, (even more considering the context back then that she was a woman and even less worthy/ deserving of such?) she loved Jesus all the more, and acted accordingly, (we could see she had faith in him before Jesus even said it because of her described actions).

Absolutely.

I believe Luke was teasing out the whole idea, that if we have faith in Jesus we will act out that faith in works of love towards others ie. serving one another in the body of Christ, in particular: the corporate bit… I think?

That sounds reasonable. However, I also believe the emphasis on this passage is canted more towards the woman's hope of being included in the "corporate safety" that Jesus spoke of and taught about. Given that the Pharisees taught and practiced social exclusion, but Jesus taught and practiced social inclusion, I'd think the woman was trusting in him to be able to make a change that would directly impact her personal circumstances. That she would no longer be treated (due to her sins) as an outsider within the community, and therefore under the ban.

Jesus then tells her to go in peace ... the peace that her sins have been forgiven and she has been saved from their penalty.

Absolutely! The "kickers" are the three "trigger" words: faith, saved and peace. The Jews understood their corporate relationship with God to be based on their keeping faith with him, which led to his saving them (the Exodus being the capstone example), which resulted in peace established between the people and God. In fact, the entire Jewish religion (and its subsequent Christian development) has as its ultimate aim, the "shalom of God". Critical in our example is the fact that when Jesus said, "your faith has saved you", the Greek word translated "saved" appears in the perfect aspect, indicative mood. This implies that the benefits of the saving act continued undiminished from that point forwards, and into the woman's future! Our courageous lady had hoped that our Lord would secure for her that which she desperately lacked: identification with, and the safety that accompanied, inclusion in the corporate worshipping community of Israel. Jesus certainly extended to her inclusion in a believing community, but also something far, far greater: the expiation of her personal sins, and subsequent peace with God!

You've done very well!

Blessings,

Ian

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Re:Salvation according to Luke

Date Posted:27/08/2009 1:02 AMCopy HTML

Hi Ian

In my thinking, the woman therefore desperately wanted to belong to the visible and the invisible community of God.

Chips
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Re:Salvation according to Luke

Date Posted:27/08/2009 1:06 AMCopy HTML

Good morning, Chips.

In my thinking, the woman therefore desperately wanted to belong to the visible and the invisible community of God.

Unfortunately, the idea of there being an invisible community of God is altogether anachronistic: the concept simply didn't exist in Judaism (or early Christianity, for that matter). To be a part of the community of God meant to be a part of the visible community.

Blessings,

Ian

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Re:Salvation according to Luke

Date Posted:27/08/2009 1:17 AMCopy HTML

Ah, of course.

That's the point I often miss - putting myself back there in time and space. The community was literal.

Chips
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Re:Salvation according to Luke

Date Posted:27/08/2009 10:14 PMCopy HTML

Good morning, John.

I'm happy to have been able to help. After all, you're my brother in Christ, so why wouldn't I persevere with you? Also, I'm saddened to learn of your pooch's health issues. For what it's worth, I reckon old Rocky would be happy with the way his life worked out.

God bless,

Ian

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Re:Salvation according to Luke

Date Posted:27/08/2009 10:57 PMCopy HTML

Good morning, all.

Our first example, Luke 7:44-50 introduced the idea that "salvation" involves preservation from both physical as well as spiritual harm, and has personal as well as corporate axes. In other words to Luke the Evangelist the entire concept of what it means to be "saved" is far broader and deeper than Revivalists can even begin to imagine! In this post, I'd like to consider another example, this time drawn from chapter eight, verses 44 through 56. My aim is one of comparison, to see whether Luke was internally consistent in what he proposed.

She came up behind him and touched the fringe of his clothes, and immediately her hemorrhage stopped. Then Jesus asked, “Who touched me?’’ When all denied it, Peter said, “Master, the crowds surround you and press in on you.” But Jesus said, “Someone touched me; for I noticed that power had gone out from me.” When the woman saw that she could not remain hidden, she came trembling; and falling down before him, she declared in the presence of all the people why she had touched him, and how she had been immediately healed. He said to her, “Daughter, your faith has made you well; go in peace.”

While he was still speaking, someone came from the leader’s house to say, “Your daughter is dead; do not trouble the teacher any longer.” When Jesus heard this, he replied, “Do not fear. Only believe, and she will be saved.” When he came to the house, he did not allow anyone to enter with him, except Peter, John, and James, and the child’s father and mother. They were all weeping and wailing for her; but he said, “Do not weep; for she is not dead but sleeping.” And they laughed at him, knowing that she was dead. But he took her by the hand and called out, “Child, get up!” Her spirit returned, and she got up at once. Then he directed them to give her something to eat. Her parents were astounded; but he ordered them to tell no one what had happened.

The first pericope of our translation above lacks the English word "save" reading instead, "has made you well". However, the underlying Greek text uses precisely the same form of the verb, "save", that we encountered in chapter seven, verse 50: the perfect aspect, indicative mood form sesōken! Consequently, lexical context makes it clear that "salvation/restoration" is what Luke had in mind; that it took place due to the woman's faith; the end result being peace with God! According to Jewish law a woman's menstrual flow rendered her ritually unclean for a period of days. In such a state, she "defiled" everyone who came into contact with her, and so was unable to partake in the corporate, social and worship life of the community. Imagine the effects of such separation on someone who was perpetually unclean! Jesus' actions in
forgiving her, and healing her, saved her by restoring her to the corporate, worshiping community! Would anyone care to offer their thoughts on our passage, perhaps as to why the forgiveness of sins isn't explicitly mentioned, for example?

Our second pericope involved the physical resurrection of a child in the presence of her parents and Jesus' three closest disciples. Note our Saviour's promise: "believe and she will be saved". In this instance the verb "save" appears in the future aspect, indicative mood. In other words, if her parents didn't fear but believed in Jesus, their daughter would be restored to them. How should we understand this encounter, especially in light of the one immediately prior? And would anyone care to offer their thoughts on the fact of the laughter (or mocking), and Jesus' subsequent actions? Further, would anyone like to share on the meaning (and implications) of "salvation" in this instance?

Blessings,

Ian 

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Re:Salvation according to Luke

Date Posted:29/08/2009 12:33 PMCopy HTML

Good evening, Shoes.

I enjoyed reading your thoughts. And minor quibbles aside (I wonder whether your perspective on "salvation" is sufficiently full-orbed enough, for example), I largely agree with your conclusions. I particularly appreciated these comments: "The story of the woman who touched the hem of Jesus garment is also a story of corporate re-integration ... This woman’s affliction had caused her to become an outcast from that covenant, Jesus healing of her body restored her place in that covenant" and, "For the woman who was a Publicly shamed sinner this involved the forgiveness of sins, to the woman in this story it involved physical healing, however the focus is not upon the individual acts but upon the outcome which is 'Corporate safety and peace in Jesus Christ'."

It's only when someone is prepared to consider the complete range of contexts that the gospel accounts provide, that one can fully appreciate the breadth, depth and height of so wonderful a subject as "salvation". Too many people rob themselves blind, in settling for far less. Galien, for example.

Blessings,

Ian

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Re:Salvation according to Luke

Date Posted:30/08/2009 7:46 AMCopy HTML



Hi

I loved hearing your thoughts Shoes, and I apologise in advance to Ian as I do realise that this thread is about 'salvation' and our understanding of it.

I'd like to offer a comment or two - not about salvation but about something I noticed about the two women in Luke 7:37 & 8:43.

Both the woman with the issue of blood and the woman who anointed the feet of Jesus, had something in common – they both reached down to touch Jesus and in doing so, totally surrendered themselves to Him. The woman with the issue had done all she could to find a cure for 12 years and could do no more. The woman who anointed His feet with her expensive perfume, gave all she had and did it openly in front of those who she knew would surely mock her. Neither of the women cared about what others thought of them, but they openly surrendered themselves in faith to Jesus.

Isn’t this what He wants of us? Not to bring OUR agendas/opinions on OUR terms, but to give them up and come to His feet where we can be made whole (someone earlier said = ‘saved’ or ‘healed’).  It is ONLY Jesus that
can transform us, change us, heal us, forgive us. He said to the woman with the issue, “Daughter, your faith has made you well, Go in peace.” And to the other woman

"your faith has saved you; go in peace."

How crucial it is to have faith - and how important it is to say 'a little less of me Lord and a whole lot more of you'.

Urch 

Your unfailing love, O Lord, is as vast as the heavens; your faithfulness reaches beyond the clouds. Your righteousness is like the mighty mountains, your justice like the ocean depths.
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Re:Salvation according to Luke

Date Posted:30/08/2009 8:12 AMCopy HTML

Hi, Urchles.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I had intended this thread to be an exegetical and biblical study of a specific Lukan theme, rather than one that targeted more 'devotional' insights. Perhaps there would be merit in you opening another thread more along those lines, one that would enable interested people to 'toggle' between the two approaches as they prefer?

Blessings,

Ian

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Re:Salvation according to Luke

Date Posted:02/09/2009 10:59 PMCopy HTML

As he approached Jericho, a blind man was sitting by the roadside begging. When he heard a crowd going by, he asked what was happening. They told him, “Jesus of Nazareth is passing by.” Then he shouted, “Jesus, Son of David, have mercy on me!” Those who were in front sternly ordered him to be quiet; but he shouted even more loudly, “Son of David, have mercy on me!” Jesus stood still and ordered the man to be brought to him; and when he came near, he asked him, “What do you want me to do for you?” He said, “Lord, let me see again.” Jesus said to him, “Receive your sight; your faith has saved you.” Immediately he regained his sight and followed him, glorifying God; and all the people, when they saw it, praised God. (Luke 18:35-43)

In our passage Jesus encounters a blind beggar. When the man learns that it is Jesus who is passing by, he exercises his faith by frantically calling out to him, seeking his attention. In the culture of the day, the beggar's actions would certainly be construed as a social "faux-pas": men of his circumstance simply did not bother respected Rabbis. Jesus hears him, and he calls for the man to be brought to him. Jesus then questions him, and having received a confession of the man's faith in him, Jesus "saves" him (the inflection of the Greek verb "save", yet again, is the perfect aspect and indicative mood. This indicates the fact of the man continuing in the "saved" state from the point of Jesus' utterance, forwards). I offer that our passage is pregnant with underlying assumptions, considerations, yet-to-be-teased-out meanings and theological implications. Given the theses that underpins our current study, would anyone like to share what they believe the passage teaches on the relationship between "faith" and "salvation"; the scope of "salvation" itself; and furthermore, its corporate/communal implications?

Blessings,

Ian

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Re:Salvation according to Luke

Date Posted:03/09/2009 12:01 AMCopy HTML

Reply to Didaktikon

As he approached Jericho, a blind man was sitting by the roadside begging. When he heard a crowd going by, he asked what was happening. They told him, “Jesus of Nazareth is passing by.” Then he shouted, “Jesus, Son of David, have mercy on me!” Those who were in front sternly ordered him to be quiet; but he shouted even more loudly, “Son of David, have mercy on me!” Jesus stood still and ordered the man to be brought to him; and when he came near, he asked him, “What do you want me to do for you?” He said, “Lord, let me see again.” Jesus said to him, “Receive your sight; your faith has saved you.” Immediately he regained his sight and followed him, glorifying God; and all the people, when they saw it, praised God. (Luke 18:35-43)

In our passage Jesus encounters a blind beggar. When the man learns that it is Jesus who is passing by, he exercises his faith by frantically calling out to him, seeking his attention. In the culture of the day, the beggar's actions would certainly be construed as a social "faux-pas": men of his circumstance simply did not bother respected Rabbis. Jesus hears him, and he calls for the man to be brought to him. Jesus then questions him, and having received a confession of the man's faith in him, Jesus "saves" him (the inflection of the Greek verb "save", yet again, is the perfect aspect and indicative mood. This indicates the fact of the man continuing in the "saved" state from the point of Jesus' utterance, forwards). I offer that our passage is pregnant with underlying assumptions, considerations, yet-to-be-teased-out meanings and theological implications. Given the theses that underpins our current study, would anyone like to share what they believe the passage teaches on the relationship between "faith" and "salvation"; the scope of "salvation" itself; and furthermore, its corporate/communal implications?

Blessings,

Ian


Chaire Ianos,

Just a quick point because I am up to my eyeballs doing a paper at the moment on 1 Cor 2:6 - 16 and Anthony Thiselton is really pinning me down.

But your right "sesoken" is present active (from whom the stem word  "sozo" )  But page 990 VII TDNT points out that in this context sozo is pointing to healing.." In the healings of Jesus sozo never referes to a single member of the body but always to the whole man, and it is especially significant in view of the important phrase "thy faith hath saved thee." The choice of the word leaves room for the view that the healing power of Jesus and the saving power of faith go beyond physical life."

The NIV translation IMO, is closer to context in translation: " Jesus said to him, "Receive your sight; your faith has healed you."

Anyway I'll leave some room for others to do their own homework and I get back to my exegesis. (Incidentally there is a word here that describes you nicely that I am getting my head around: "Teleios" )

smiley20

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Re:Salvation according to Luke

Date Posted:03/09/2009 12:49 AMCopy HTML

Good morning, Eric.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I think the current passage is instructive, in that it highlights the theological (never mind the) semantic overlap that exists between "physical preservation from harm", and "spiritual preservation from harm" encapsulated within the Greek verb,
sōzō. However, I find myself disagreeing with your position with respect to the NIV, as I reckon translating our word as "healed" is not only overly interpretative, it also removes the "ambiguity" inherent in the Greek verb.

Blessings, dude.

Ian

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Re:Salvation according to Luke

Date Posted:03/09/2009 1:00 AMCopy HTML

Hi Ian

To me, the first thing that springs to mind - not very profound though. It is that these verses point out who can be saved. Not only those in the accepted social circles certainly. Faith in Jesus triggered Jesus response to him and saved him.

Also it occurred to me that curing blindness is so complete in itself. One either sees or one doesn't. And, once saved/healed, our life/sight is thus thereafter.

Chips

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Re:Salvation according to Luke

Date Posted:03/09/2009 1:09 AMCopy HTML

Ian,

One more tiny thing. Is it obvious that the man is healed to those about - maybe Jesus used the word saved instead to show that using faith leads to salvation.

Chips
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Re:Salvation according to Luke

Date Posted:03/09/2009 1:14 AMCopy HTML

Good morning, Chips.

Actually, what you shared was quite profound: that "salvation" isn't dependent upon social, environmental, health or any other imposed circumstances. Furthermore, your views on the effectual nature of "salvation" were equally sharp. I think you might be surprised just how many religious people never grasp either point adequately enough.

Well done, and thanks for advancing the conversation.

Blessings,

Ian

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Re:Salvation according to Luke

Date Posted:03/09/2009 1:51 AMCopy HTML

A couple of things that stood out to me were the ministering nature of Jesus. "What do you want me to do for you?". Also is there a conection between the blind man addressing Jesus as "Son of David" being to do with the corporate nature of salvation? I can also see that even as far back as Abraham Faith is required to be justified and therefore in a position to be in the presence of God.
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Re:Salvation according to Luke

Date Posted:03/09/2009 2:10 AMCopy HTML

Hi, Rob.

First up, good to hear that Joey is doing well. I can only imagine how you and your partner must be feeling.

A couple of things that stood out to me were the ministering nature of Jesus. "What do you want me to do for you?"

Yes, the fact that Jesus was (a) prepared to help, and (b) prepared to ask what sort of help the person believed was appropriate, or necessary, is suggestive. I'm sure further reflection on this point would pay dividends.

Also is there a conection between the blind man addressing Jesus as "Son of David" being to do with the corporate nature of salvation?

There is indeed. The term, "son of David" identified the expected Messiah, the one who would redeem Israel and restore the nation to peace with God. The Jews, we must understand, had no concept whatsoever of individual redemption: their identity was as a people collectively, not as persons individually. Noting this, what "role" do you think the beggar might have played in Luke's conception of "salvation"?

Blessings,

Ian

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Re:Salvation according to Luke

Date Posted:03/09/2009 2:34 AMCopy HTML

Ian

I think the role that the beggar played was that he represented the gentiles in salvation.

Chips
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Re:Salvation according to Luke

Date Posted:03/09/2009 2:47 AMCopy HTML

Hi, Chips.

The Gentiles do you think? When the chap was Jewish? Perhaps the following hint might be useful: try to consider the beggar's personal circumstances, and then think "object lesson".

Blessings,

Ian

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Re:Salvation according to Luke

Date Posted:03/09/2009 3:35 AMCopy HTML

Reply to Didaktikon

Good morning, Eric.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I think the current passage is instructive, in that it highlights the theological (never mind the) semantic overlap that exists between "physical preservation from harm", and "spiritual preservation from harm" encapsulated within the Greek verb,
sōzō. However, I find myself disagreeing with your position with respect to the NIV, as I reckon translating our word as "healed" is not only overly interpretative, it also removes the "ambiguity" inherent in the Greek verb.

Blessings, dude.

Ian






BDAG page 982
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Re:Salvation according to Luke

Date Posted:03/09/2009 3:48 AMCopy HTML

Hi, Eric.

Sure, but I already knew what the BDAG lexicon stated (and Moulton-Milligan, and Souter, and Liddel-Scott-Jones for that matter). Lexical works such as these exist to provide synchronic and diachronic "glosses" to the Greek vocabulary of the NT; consequently, they are necessarily interpretative when it comes to according specific meaning to specific words, by specific authors, in specific passages. It is for this reason that you'll frequently find different lexicographers applying different nuances to the same words, with different Bible translations following suit. Given that I'd previously affirmed that our word's broad semantic range included the concept of restoration to physical well-being, I think it likely that you've not quite grasped what I was getting at

Blessings, bro'.

Ian

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Re:Salvation according to Luke

Date Posted:03/09/2009 3:57 AMCopy HTML

Joey was born with a condition called agenisis of the corpus callosum, which in laymens terms is the nerve membrane between his brain hemispheres doesnt exist. He has intellectual and physical disabilities as well as epilepsy. Joey had his tonsils out as he was suffering recuring bouts of tonsilitis which triggered his epilepsy. One of the worries for us was that a GA has higher risks for a person with epilepsy as well as the poor little fellow not really knowing whats going on.
One very cruel thing I remember was at GRC camp once a "sister" comented to me, "he was obviosly born before you were saved".  The oposite was the case and we had been going to GRC for a few years when he was born.

Back to our topic, would I be on the right track thinking Luke would perhaps see that we all must turn from our unsaved state to follow Jesus with Faith in order to be saved. Jesus being the second Adam and the path to being right with God?

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