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Didaktikon
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Date Posted:12/11/2008 10:29 PMCopy HTML

Good morning, one and all.

Every so often some "well-meaning" Revivalist breaks fellowship with his former group (ostensibly for all the "right" reasons, we are quickly assured), and so goes off to create his own little "sub-brand" of the general Revivalist product. Of late we've been treated to two further such wannabes: Alf Neri, and the poorly-named "Jeremiah99". But here's the thing: every previous attempt at building upon the Revivalist's cracked foundation has come "a cropper". History has demonstrated, and then rather conclusively, that there is no such thing as a "safe" Revivalist option.

To be blunt, one can't establish "truth" on a foundation of "untruth". If one can't get the gospel correct, then how on earth can one expect the tangible and intangible benefits that ordinarily flow from spiritual regeneration?

In the end, leopards don't change their spots. Neither do wolves cease being wolves.

Blessings,

Ian

email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:Revival-esque reincarnations

Date Posted:14/11/2008 9:13 AMCopy HTML

Reply to brolga (12/11/2008 22:09:59)
Ian,

Given the truth of what you are saying, it might be of interest to know that the Geelong RF group have now decided it would be best to dis-banded the Geelong RF and return to the RCI (Bellarine).

brolga  
Hey Brolga, that is most interesting news. mind you no real difference between them and its one way to make the "church " look bigger


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Re:Revival-esque reincarnations

Date Posted:14/11/2008 9:29 AMCopy HTML

Which Pastor Daryl is this? from Melbourne?
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Re:Revival-esque reincarnations

Date Posted:14/11/2008 9:30 AMCopy HTML

What has happened to the huge gulf created by the split and the moral issue?
Didaktikon Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #4
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Re:Revival-esque reincarnations

Date Posted:15/11/2008 2:58 AMCopy HTML

Hi, Theresa.

What has happened to the huge gulf created by the split and the moral issue?

To be honest, I think the brouha about "morals" served more as a convenient excuse for the split, than it did the only (or even principle) reason for it

Blessings,

Ian

email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:Revival-esque reincarnations

Date Posted:15/11/2008 5:46 AMCopy HTML

 re the 'morals policy' and the split

While I can't speak regarding the motivations (machinations?) of those at the top of the RF organisational pyramid, I can say that for the dozens of the former RCI'rs I know who left to become part of RF, that policy was indeed the principle reason for leaving. The foolish (and somewhat corrupt) grooming of SL for the top job was obvious even to me outside 'the inner circle' in Melbourne, but that was not sufficient reason to leave.

In retrospect, various actions of LRL's *did* encourage the split eg telling the pastors in at least one regional meeting convened to discuss the isssue, "You're all out. If you want back in, you'll have to ask." Nevertheless, LRL's belief in "once a fornicator, always a fornicator" went back, according to evidence I've heard from a number of people, many years prior to '95.

What a shame that when their RF option became unviable, the "must speak in tongues" elastic drew these people back, instead of them being drawn by teachings of the bible towards orthodoxy.
The evidence for Mann-made global warming is unequivocal.
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Re:Revival-esque reincarnations

Date Posted:15/11/2008 10:23 PMCopy HTML

Good morning, Talmid.

I harbour no doubts whatsoever that the "morals" issue was the primary driver for the rank-and-file leaving the RCI in droves for the RF in 1995. After all, that was the only issue about which the average "pew-sitter" would have been aware (at the time)

What I suggested to Theresa; however, was that there were significantly graver issues at stake for certain members of the then RCI hierarchy. And I wouldn't be surprised if the "morals" nonsense simply served as a convenient foil around which to foment a little (self-serving) dissent. After all, there has always been intrigue enough within Revivalism to put to shame the best efforts of, say, the Roman Catholic Church. Motes and beams; motes and beams!

Blessings,

Ian

email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:Revival-esque reincarnations

Date Posted:16/11/2008 4:05 AMCopy HTML

Epi

Well put. It's all coming back to me, the 'big split'. We were so used to saying, only amongst our closest of friends, 'Praise the Lloyd' instead of 'Praise the Lord' - funny we thought it was. But it was a bit nearer the truth than we cared to admit.

In our RCI group there was about a 3/4 to 1/4 split : the classic 'T' intersection. I remember being angry that the powers that be could not get it together and agree on fundamental issues. We were urged to study the scriptures : the main pastor went RCI as did the majority. Those of us who decided RF and against the rigid moral issue, met in a hired room and the pastors there, some from Canberra, were very candid and from memory, quite shell-shocked. It really felt like a rebellion. It makes me angrier now to learn that there just may have been other matters pushing this along, matters material and selfish.

Funny how none of that matters now.

cheers
S. Chips
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Re:Revival-esque reincarnations

Date Posted:16/11/2008 5:56 AMCopy HTML

 I was just remembering my very early days.
 I would hear people talk about Lloyd and I used to think why is a man placed on such a pedestal- he's just a man. 
On my first meeting of him he was at an out reach telling people they had no right to read the bible as it was effectively reading some one else's mail.
 I was pretty unimpressed and the Safari suit and white shoes he wore were an instant character warning that definitely unnerved me. 
But yet for all the gut feeling of things  not sitting right, I was so wanting to find God in a real tangible experience that changed my life and broke addictions, I was willing to overlook what would have been my natural instincts warning me. 
I think I just thought well if they want to look at Lloyd that way thats their problem but I never will. 
But slowly your life blends to the Revival way and before you realize it you've become just like everyone else. 
You effectively stop thinking for yourself. I do feel now like I've awoken from a comatose state and taken back control.
As I hear it, I'll repeat it, Its up to you if you believe it! Allegation big and small, soon revealed before us all. outa here- Outa Egypt!
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Re:Revival-esque reincarnations

Date Posted:16/11/2008 6:09 AMCopy HTML

Hiya OoE,

'Yep', and now the RCI world gets to enjoy the son. Half the genes and one twentieth the personal charisma

Blessings,

Ian

email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:Revival-esque reincarnations

Date Posted:04/01/2009 4:46 AMCopy HTML

Reply to Didaktikon (12/11/2008 16:29:07)

Good morning, one and all.

Every so often some "well-meaning" Revivalist breaks fellowship with his former group (ostensibly for all the "right" reasons, we are quickly assured), and so goes off to create his own little "sub-brand" of the general Revivalist product. Of late we've been treated to two further such wannabes: Alf Neri, and the poorly-named "Jeremiah99". But here's the thing: every previous attempt at building upon the Revivalist's cracked foundation has come "a cropper". History has demonstrated, and then rather conclusively, that there is no such thing as a "safe" Revivalist option.

To be blunt, one can't establish "truth" on a foundation of "untruth". If one can't get the gospel correct, then how on earth can one expect the tangible and intangible benefits that ordinarily flow from spiritual regeneration?

In the end, leopards don't change their spots. Neither do wolves cease being wolves.

Blessings,

Ian



Wow, thats a really good point. Not long ago there was some break-offs from the Gold Coast fellowship.
Didaktikon Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #11
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Re:Revival-esque reincarnations

Date Posted:04/01/2009 5:58 AMCopy HTML

Hi, Guest.

If you meant the Gold Coast RCI, then such is probably not overly surprising. After all, the former and current pastors were apparently involved in the former's failed money-making, property development scheme. So there are bound to have been some within the fellowship who would have found the upshot of this debacle distasteful enough to leave.

But as I maintained, one can't successfully build on a cracked foundation. If there is a 'splinter' group on the Coast, then I doubt that it will ever amount to very much.

Blessings,

Ian

email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:Revival-esque reincarnations

Date Posted:27/05/2009 11:29 AMCopy HTML

Hi Demetrius

Personally I reckon that such issues as you mention pale into insignificance compared with the fact that the RCI/RF salvation message is what Paul would have called "another gospel". Even the meekest, most caring person who adheres to that message is in mortal danger!
The evidence for Mann-made global warming is unequivocal.
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Re:Revival-esque reincarnations

Date Posted:27/05/2009 11:33 AMCopy HTML

Demetrius,

What's this? Another example of the importing of one's biases into the text of Revelation? And why is it that the Roman Catholics seem to be the most frequent target drawn from Revelation's imagery by Revivalists (whether former or current)? Might I ask, then, from which anti-Catholic website did you cut-and-paste your post?

Now please excuse me but I'm going to be rather blunt. The time is dragging on, and I really couldn't be bothered refuting each of your points in turn. Irrespective of what Irenaeus had to say about the Nicolaitans in his Adv. haer. 7.24, and irrespective of Clement of Alexandria's basic concurrence with this position (see Misc.2.20), the Nicolaitans (of Revelation 2: 6 and 15)
didn't draw their name or their teaching from Nicolaus of Antioch (of Acts 6:1-15). John presented the name in his Apocalypse intending for it to be interpreted symbolically, as a wordplay and a pun on the name of Balaam of Numbers 22 infamy (see Revelation 2:14-15). 'Nicolaitan' is nike laou in Greek, which means "conqueror of the people", whilst Balaam in Hebrew is bil'am, "he destroyed the people", hence the pun.

The sins the Nicolaitans were charged with had nothing to do with supposed 'priest-craft' (Roman Catholic or otherwise) or over-blown church leadership, but everything to do with the partaking in, and of, idolatrous sacrifices and acts of religious sexual immorality. After all, Balaam was the achetypical false teacher and "bad guy" (so 2 Peter 2:15), so in this respect, and this respect only, can the parallel be drawn to the Revival Centres pastors that you clearly wished to draw.

Now which 'Demetrius' do you identify with? The Acts 19 bloke, or the 3 John fellow?

Blessings,

Ian

email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:Revival-esque reincarnations

Date Posted:29/05/2009 1:36 PMCopy HTML

Hi there: Thank you Ian for the URL- http://latter-rain.com/eschae/nicola.htm. I didn't save to favourites and I wish I had. I had only copied a section relevant to my study at the time. Anyhow, The only aspect of that site that was of real interest to me was the references to coments.... The Early church father Iranaeus, identified the Nicolaitans in his treatise "Against Heresies" in the second century as they who are an "offshoot of the knowledge which is falsely so-called," mentioning that they "lead lives of unrestrained indulgence." The rest was just for interest sake.

I do understand that anyone can, as you say "cut & paste" but I don't have a problem with that in forums such as these (within reason). After all we are not writing assignments for university here. LOL

I see no reason to, as they say "re-create the wheel" that is to say, I am very very busy and do not have time to spend hours and hours rewriting these thoughts which perfectly capture my point.

With respect to your opinion on Iranaeus and Clement of Alexandria's I would be interested to hear. Maybe when you have time???

Given that you did say
"John presented the name in his Apocalypse intending for it to be interpreted symbolically, as a wordplay and a pun on the name of Balaam of Numbers 22 infamy (see Revelation 2:14-15). 'Nicolaitan' is nike laou in Greek, which means "conqueror of the people", whilst Balaam in Hebrew is bil'am, "he destroyed the people", hence the pun."

I totally agree with you there, I was simply highlighting the aspect that I believe characterises the dominering behaviour of some people in church, what ever denomination throughout the last 2000 years. Not to downplay the relative influence of the reference to Balaam. Sometime we humble humans are guilty of tunnel vision when applying meaning to scripture. When you say the John was referring to one and not the other I would disagree. I believe he was referring to both, I also contend that Iranaeus and Clement of Alexandria would contend the same.

Now concerning what you said....
The sins the Nicolaitans were charged with had nothing to do with supposed 'priest-craft' (Roman Catholic or otherwise) or over-blown church leadership, but everything to do with the partaking in, and of, idolatrous sacrifices and acts of religious sexual immorality. After all, Balaam was the achetypical false teacher and "bad guy" (so 2 Peter 2:15), so in this respect, and this respect only, can the parallel be drawn to the Revival Centres pastors that you clearly wished to draw.

That goes beyond my exploration of the text, thats you thoughts not mine. I am simply saying that in the development of churches throughout the last 2000 years. The desire of some to gain position and authority over others in order to satisfy an entirely physical need. Therefore both applications are true and not in the spirit of service that the scripture espouses.

If you disagree with Iranaeus and Clement of Alexandria's assertions I would be curious as to your evidence seeing that they both were writing with 1st hand experience seeing that they lived in that era, whereas you and I have only read about it.

Blessings

Demetrius



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Re:Revival-esque reincarnations

Date Posted:30/05/2009 8:41 AMCopy HTML

Demetrius,

If you go back and re-read my response to you, you'll discover that I was disagreeing with Irenaeus' contention (which was simply parroted by the later Clement of Alexandria) that the Nicolaitans were actually the successors or followers of Nicholas of Antioch. Nothing more. It also seems that you misunderstood the point that I sought to make with respect to John's intended linkage between the Nicolaitans and Balaam.

Actually, I reckon you've confused so much of what has been said, and what's actually involved in this subject, that you really should go back to first-principles and read the primary sources for yourself. There are several editions of the various Church Fathers available, probably the most suitable and convenient for your purposes being those published by Penguin. And I as advised someone else recently, invest in a decent scholarly commentary on the Book of Revelation. Reading such a work will keep you within the bounds of exegetical possibility.

Blessings,

Ian

email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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