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Date Posted:17/01/2006 1:12 PMCopy HTML

$%*'`[mick]%*'`@Having been first in RC and then RF for 30 years my father was a pastor I have a fairly good understanding of how this organization works.The practise of puting someone out of fellowship especially young people is very dangerous and not based in sound study of the scripture.Rules and regs (RC) guildlines (RF) a change in words does'nt change the intent which is to make oneself pure and holy by adhearing to a set of laws ie mosaic law old testiment. If god forgives apon repentence what is the purpose of ex-communicating someone for sin other than to use this method of control based in fear to get members to adhear to their doctrine.Fear of losing your salvation if you dont conform is a strong motivator but not a scriptual one.
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Re:RF RULES AND REGS

Date Posted:18/01/2006 1:30 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : mick [Anonymous]

 These groups confuse repentance with penitence i'm sure. A set of man made laws just makes u miserable, even if u do abide by them. You  lose your own identity. Is your dad a pastor somewhere else now?

 

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Re:RF RULES AND REGS

Date Posted:21/01/2006 12:29 PMCopy HTML

$%*'`[mick]%*'`@no he is not ,dew to the way this stuff can screw  your head around he has lost faith with organisations and for the moment hes decided to give it a miss for a while.
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Re:RF RULES AND REGS

Date Posted:25/01/2006 7:28 PMCopy HTML

$%*'`[jac]%*'`@Do you still go to the RF?  I have seen them screw so many peoples lives up by their 'guidelines' and by them 'putting people out' for the most  crazy reasons.  I have also noticed that it depends on who you are and your standing within the church as to how long you are put out for, if at all.  They should not be allowed to do what they are doing especially to innocent children who don't know any better and who are so filled with fear.  Churches should be about god's love and grace! 
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Re:RF RULES AND REGS

Date Posted:25/01/2006 7:45 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : jac [Anonymous]



Do you still go to the RF?I have seen them screw so many peoples lives up by their 'guidelines' and by them 'putting people out' for the most crazy reasons. I have also noticed that it depends on who you are and your standing within the church as to how long you are put out for, if at all. They should not be allowed to do what they are doing especially to innocent children who don't know any better and who are so filled with fear. Churches should be about god's love and grace!





You are quite right, people get hurt and that is unacceptable in any Christian fellowship. The RF leaders are fearful themselves and often see dangers lurking around every corner. Many of the problems they think they have to deal with are imaginary, and not biblical problems at all.
When I left RF, I don't think I knew anything about grace. It's been an interesting few years since then.
Best wishes and good luck.
I know what you"re thinking....did I put 5 people out or 6?... I guess in all the excitement I kinda lost count myself...so the question is, do you feel lucky?...well do you, punk? - Clint Eastwood
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Re:RF RULES AND REGS

Date Posted:26/01/2006 12:59 PMCopy HTML

$%*'`[mick]%*'`@

reply to jac;

no I dont go there any more. I  am a strong believer that if they continue this practice someone will eventually take one if not all of these leaders to court.The damage that is being done to young peolpes minds by using this form of judgement and the public awareness and treatment of depression will hopfully encourage these leaders to drop this practice sooner rather than later.From what Ive heard the RF council is mostly made up of stornch hard liners bent on maintaining the statis quo.

 

 

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Re:RF RULES AND REGS

Date Posted:26/01/2006 9:36 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : jac [Anonymous]


All anyone had to do was look around on a sunday to see that there were very few people there, if anythat had true joy.





Good point. The number of people who seemed to have spontaneous joy and happiness at a Sunday meeting always appeared to be about zero. The letter of the law kills I guess. And you hear the same thing over and over again. As for the "guidelines", well they are always looming ever present, and I really believe that over time you lose your ability to actually know what is and what isn't a genuine problem.

We had little kids back then and we were always put down as parents. You end up terrified of them making a noise in the meeting. A visiting couple helped restore some perspective with some very kind comments too us about parenting and kids. We were not problem people, the RF was the problem, and scales began to fall from our eyes.

I'm very happy not to be there now, as I can see that it nullified our personalities, and would have made life very difficult for the children. There is life outside of the constricting RF walls, there is light at the end of the tunnel, and the light isn't another train coming. Truly.
I know what you"re thinking....did I put 5 people out or 6?... I guess in all the excitement I kinda lost count myself...so the question is, do you feel lucky?...well do you, punk? - Clint Eastwood
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Re:RF RULES AND REGS

Date Posted:27/01/2006 10:13 AMCopy HTML

$%*'`[mick]%*'`@

reply to jac.

I agree that fear is a big obsticle to overcome in leaving the RF so good on you for having the courage to pull the pin it takes alot of energy to come to that point so just keep going and dont look back.Keep praying and the Lord will guild you in what you need to do.As for me I'm not rushing anything Im not keen to go anywhere till I can get my head around all that has happened to me.You are not to blame for their actions so take gods grace and mercy which are new every morning and apply them in your life to grow stronger and dont judge yourself so harshly.RF is A church not THE church so if attending has made you confused as it has me trust the Lord and take back the authority you have to make your own decisions.I agree this is not an easy thing to do after a life time of teaching I have these issues myself they see themselvses as having the right to control so much of your time and then link it to your salvation its a lie! Dont beleive the lie.The truth will set you free,free from confushion,free from depression,free from pain and anger.God is not restricted by a church or leader if you communicate with him, its when we put our faith in these things that we run into trouble.I hope this helps to encourage you and know that you are not on your own.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

   

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Re:RF RULES AND REGS

Date Posted:27/01/2006 12:58 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : mick [Anonymous]

.RF is A church not THE church

No I disagree completely.... Lets get one thing clear: the RF is a nothing more than a mind controlling cult!!

.... now granted that individual people or persons who choose to remain WITHIN  the confines of this insidious cult may indeed be members of the Church or Body of Christ - BUT THAT DOESN"T MAKE THE RF QUALIFY IN ITSELF AS A CHURCH.. 

So lets get one thing quite clear... ONLY JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF decides who and who is not a member of the His body, the Church   !!!   NOT JOHN KUHLMAN !!!  All John Kuhlman has any decision on, is who can and cannot be a member of his little cult... As far as the Body of Christ is concerned Jesus is still and always will be in charge!

anon

 

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Re:RF RULES AND REGS

Date Posted:27/01/2006 2:16 PMCopy HTML

$%*'`[mick]%*'`@

reply to Anonymous

I havent had any dealings with John Kuhlman myself so I cant comment on this aspect though I suspect alot of churches in this world would be in simular positions due to human nature and pride.I agree with you that RF has cultish tendenceies and they are harmful and legallistic,the problem for me is that if the spirit leads us into all truth and the church/cult makes a mistake what then happens to repentence and acknowledging wrong doing.I think because they are so legalistic and dont apply enough grace to Christs sheep they know they wont recieve it (you reap what you sow)and the rediculous action that they apply on others will be applied to them.Got problems with someone put them out!

Leaders are signposts to the truth nothing more,if what they say doesnt line in with scripture than ignore it.

 

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Re:RF RULES AND REGS

Date Posted:27/01/2006 3:26 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : Anonymous

All John Kuhlman has any decision on, is who can and cannot be a member of his little cult...

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Nicely said... perfect!

[LINK SiteName=Mothrust: Movies and Modern Myth Target=_blank]http://aintchristian.blogspot.com.au/[/LINK] Be nice, for everyone that you meet is fighting a harder battle - Anita Roddick
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Re:RF RULES AND REGS

Date Posted:27/01/2006 8:38 PMCopy HTML


All John Kuhlman has any decision on, is who can and cannot be a member of his little cult...

 

Eph 5:6 AMP  "Let no one delude and deceive you with empty excuses and groundless arguments."

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Re:RF RULES AND REGS

Date Posted:28/01/2006 10:11 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : Anonymous

All John Kuhlman has any decision on, is who can and cannot be a member of his little cult...Eph 5:6 AMP "Let no one delude and deceive you with empty excuses andgroundless arguments."

This quote from Ephesians seems to me to be quoted completely out of context. The amplified Bible adds a little something else after the word "arguments" and it is "[ for these sins]".  This is a terrible error to fall into and is commonly known as "prooftexting".  The RF are grossly and seriously in error of prooftext because they make scripture to support their view without taking any consideration for the full complete context of the scriptures they misuse. The whole opening page of the Revival Fellowship Web Site is irresponsibly jammed full of prooftext and a lot of innocent people are harmfully led astray to a lifetime of hurt. Be very carefully of using or even attempting to use scripture to "prooftext".    In all the many years I was at at the RCI and RF, I never once heard of the word "exegeses" !! or ever heard the word "exegeses" mentioned at anytime within any housemeeting or sunday/wednesday fellowship normal meeting times. - ever !! 

.. and further I 'd like to add that John Kuhlman has most probably never heard of the word "exegeses" either .

anon 

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Re:RF RULES AND REGS

Date Posted:28/01/2006 11:04 AMCopy HTML

$%*'`[mick]%*'`@

I see alot of posts from melbourne and adelaide ex RF/RCI maybe if there is anyone from canberra it would be good to hear from you to.

In nsw we have a bit of a different story, under this crock unity banner the oversight try to be somewhat more liberal but what ends up happening is there are glaring inconsistancies everywhere.One pastor will put someone out of fellowship for one thing and another pastor wont. Some forniacters will have to marry others wont.It fosters confushion and we all know that God isnt the author of confushion.NSW head pastor is still answerable to adelaide and has to be seen to be towing the line whilst trying to be led of the spirit, this is making more problems than it solves.United we stand(in Gods grace)divided we fall(judgement).

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Re:RF RULES AND REGS

Date Posted:28/01/2006 12:36 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : Anonymous







john kulhman. He came to a Canberra meeting last year and his talk left me feeling ill. He got up on stage and said that he believed that no-one should fraternise with anyone including family who do not attend the RF especially if they did attend. He said that there are enough people inside the fellowship to be friends with and that we did not need anyone outside of the church.


A staggering thing to say. Sad thing is that in the Western world at least, the RF is becoming an ever decreasing circle.
It could all have been done so differently after the split occurred in 1995. But they just made it tougher, and now the cultic traits are clear for all to see. I feel very sorry for the people who have been there 20+ years who are trying to bring their kids through the same system, and who deep down know something is seriously wrong. Some have iced careers and put normal everyday living on hold.
Church wise all they have to look forward to is a continuation of feeling guilty, sneaking around nonsensical legislation, and forever saying "Yes pastor Nong", "thanks pastor Nong", "yes we will pastor Nong".
I know what you"re thinking....did I put 5 people out or 6?... I guess in all the excitement I kinda lost count myself...so the question is, do you feel lucky?...well do you, punk? - Clint Eastwood
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Re:RF RULES AND REGS

Date Posted:28/01/2006 12:49 PMCopy HTML

$%*'`[mick]%*'`@

reply to Anonymous.

Good to hear from you canberra, in my last post I said that the nsw head pastor was still answerable to adelaide.but hay whats a good old miscommunication amongst friends,

Grace is taboo subject with most canberra oversight because I dont think they understand it and what people fear is the unknowen.As a result of my families heavy involvement in RF and the treatment I received from oversight ie put out of fellowship for stupid things I have depression.Always feeling under condemnation and never happy to be me but trying to live a life I hated because I didnt know why I was so unhappy, until oneday it accured to me that the reason for my unhappiness was I was being oppressed! If I continued beleiving the environment I was in was good for me it would destroy me.I guess it will take time to find myself again and enjoy life.

  

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Re:RF RULES AND REGS

Date Posted:28/01/2006 1:40 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : mick [Anonymous]

,Grace is taboo subject with most canberra oversight because I dont think they understand it and what people fear is the unknowen.

I wonder if John Kuhlman knows what "grace" is ?? better still I wonder if John Kuhlman has ever found grace himself in his own life ??

anon

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Re:RF RULES AND REGS

Date Posted:28/01/2006 2:15 PMCopy HTML

$%*'`[mick]%*'`@

To Anonymous,

The best thing to do is not to dwell on the past to much but learn from it,have confidence that you are doing the right thing for your children and yourself.To be depressed is not going to help anyone least of all your children.If its any help I believe your doing the right thing and you will get past this time .You are right it is early days ,for me to, ask the Lord for guildence sometimes help can come in unusuall ways if your not blinded by reteric.The Lord will be faithful to you as he has promised and your children wont grow up in an elitist environment where confushion reigns.If I had the choice I would take my kids out to but unfortunately I dont so I hope they will make their own decision later.I love it when the kids say grace at dinner time its so simple and uncomplicated to pray with that attitude the lord must love it.I n time you will see the friuts of love, grace,compashion the lord has for you and this will strengthen your resolve.

I do what Abraham did as writen in Romans call things that be not as though are!

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Re:RF RULES AND REGS

Date Posted:28/01/2006 2:53 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : mick [Anonymous]

If I had the choice I would take my kids out to but unfortunately I dont so I hope they will make their own decision later.

I don't get it.  What do you mean you don't have the choice.  You are their father and unless you are not in their lives surely you have an equal say as to what they do.  The whole place is about people not having the freedom of choice and this is just another example of it. 

Obviously I don't know your cicumstances but you need to know you do have a choice!

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Re:RF RULES AND REGS

Date Posted:28/01/2006 3:32 PMCopy HTML

$%*'`[mick]%*'`@

reply Anonymous

My wife still attends and doesnt respect my decision not to she takes the kids with her and my input doesnt count.She does what she wants so to aviod more conflict and having the kids in the middle I let her.I mean what  can I do short of physicaly stopping them.Her family are all involved in things and thats where she wants to be, not easy hay!  

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Re:RF RULES AND REGS

Date Posted:28/01/2006 5:32 PMCopy HTML

$%*'`[mick]%*'`@

reply to Anonymous,

I cant beleive with so many family breakdowns and depressed people in RF they dont ask themselves some serious questons I spoke to a leader and asked him this they deny any responsability and then I told him that the church is now reaping what was sown in the first and second generations,he didnt beleive me.I know countless numbers of people who get their ministry elswere and just come to church on sunday .The oversight probably think their doing a great job in ministering to people but I dont think this is a true reflection of the state of things.

I would be interested to hear your point of veiw on tonges that is if you have one?

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Re:RF RULES AND REGS

Date Posted:28/01/2006 6:00 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : mick [Anonymous]

I know countless numbers of people who get their ministry elswere and just come to church on sunday .The oversight probably think their doing a great job in ministering to people but I dont think this is a true reflection of the state of things.

Yeah, that's because you don't have to have gone to bible college or any official bible studies to minister or give talks (naturally, all bible schools are inherently wrong as they don't preach the tonguetruth pfft..).  You don't have to be a skilled speaker to give a 'talk' in the Revivals. As long as you can ramble on for 40 minutes or so and keep it within the Revival doctrine... and you've proven yourself a loyal member by making it to 90 percent of the meetings... you too can give a Sunday sermon.

The topics were generally irrelevant to real life and most speakers are downright boring and humourless. Some classic talk themes:

  • How wonderful tongues are and why no home should be without them
  • Jesus is coming back soon (very popular when there's a Middle East skirmish)
  • Pick one of the nine fruits and pad it with one scripture per five minutes (as per our instructions)... voila instant talk
  • How lucky we are to have the true doctrine of tongues...
  • Pick one of the nine gifts and pad it with one scripture per five minutes... voila
  • Pyramids, Aswan Dam, bible numerics, British Israel, etc
  • PowerPoint presentation on why a particular other church is stupid
  • Everything you wanted to know about tongues but were too scared to ask
[LINK SiteName=Mothrust: Movies and Modern Myth Target=_blank]http://aintchristian.blogspot.com.au/[/LINK] Be nice, for everyone that you meet is fighting a harder battle - Anita Roddick
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Re:RF RULES AND REGS

Date Posted:28/01/2006 6:24 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : mick [Anonymous]

I would be interested to hear your point of veiw on tonges that is if you have one?

My point of view on tongues?

Have never even questioned whether they are right, wrong, neccessary for salvation.  Have heard a few conflicting points of view recently but haven't gone there myself.

I could never understand how people have numerous tongues.  I myself have only ever had one.  I asked that question at a spiritual night once and the answer I got was the vaguest answer and that was all.  I am still none the wiser and if anyone wants to enlighten me I would appreciate it.

I think it was all a bit of coaching from the oversight.  Anyone who says hallalujeh enough times is sure to get tongue tied and sound like the are speaking in another tongue.  With that comment i am certainly not saying that it is all a crock but I do wonder when really young kids 'receive'.  How do they recieve god's gift when they have nothing to repent about and are just so young they could not even begin to understand. A few years ago I had a very similar conversation with a friend in the fellowship and because her tongue was repetative she was totally convinced that she had never received and what had happened to her was getting tongue tied and then simply remembering what it sounded like.

I have spoken at length with someone from another church who said alot about the salvation message and they firmly belive that speaking in tongues is not the be all and end all of salvation.  As i said first up though i have never really thought about it and always believed totally what was being preached.

In relation to the depression and marriage problems in the church.  Don't get me started.  I have got heaps to say on both issues especially the latter.  They simply don't care!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Re:RF RULES AND REGS

Date Posted:28/01/2006 6:38 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : HolyandSinful

You don't have to be a skilled speaker to give a 'talk' in the Revivals. As long as you can ramble on for 40 minutes or so and keep it within the Revival doctrine... and you've proven yourself a loyal member by making it to 90 percent of the meetings... you too can give a

one scripture per 5 mins as per your instructions.  Are you for real.  Did you really get given instructions.  That certainly explains alot.  I love the talks (huge sarcasm here) where they rattle off a dozen or so scriptures, not all relevant, and at the end of the talk you are none the wiser as to the message they were trying to give.  In John kuhlmans talk in Canberra last year he said that revival fellowship pastors haven't gone to elocution lessons so they don't perform for the audience but they are speaking the only true gospel.  Maybe all of them should go to some lessons so the congregation can get a bit out of a talk instead of going away wondering what it was all about.

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Re:RF RULES AND REGS

Date Posted:28/01/2006 9:05 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : Anonymous

one scripture per 5 mins as per your instructions.  Are you for real.  Did you really get given instructions. 

Yeah, I suppose you could call them suggestions... pretty good ones considering that most would rattle off a dozen scriptures, as you say.

John kuhlmans talk in Canberra last year he said that revival fellowship pastors haven't gone to elocution lessons so they don't perform for the audience but they are speaking the only true gospel.  Maybe all of them should go to some lessons so the congregation can get a bit out of a talk instead of going away wondering what it was all about.

45 minute talks + hot Sunday afternoon + monotone boring speakers = sleep. If only the chairs were more comfortable.

Yeah, like knowing some history wouldn't help, or understanding other religions, or understanding some Hebrew and Greek. Honestly, that lot... arrogance of that magnitude should be illegal and every assembly is the same. At least have some counselling skills. My God, they wonder why they have so many problems... all the damn hacks who are pastoring and leading people with no idea how to deal with real life issues. Just put it on the prayer list, have a fast and everything will be alright! If the problem continues ask for more faith...

*Excuse me here H&S. Some posts have been deleted and edited at the request of the original poster due to privacy concerns.

[LINK SiteName=Mothrust: Movies and Modern Myth Target=_blank]http://aintchristian.blogspot.com.au/[/LINK] Be nice, for everyone that you meet is fighting a harder battle - Anita Roddick
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Re:RF RULES AND REGS

Date Posted:29/01/2006 8:44 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : Anonymous

Reply to : AnonymousAll John Kuhlman has any decision on, is who can and cannot be a member of his little cult...Eph 5:6 AMP "Let no one delude and deceive you with empty excuses andgroundless arguments."This quote from Ephesians seems to me to be quoted completely out of context. The amplified Bible adds a little something else after the word "arguments" and it is "[ for these sins]". This is a terrible error to fall into and is commonly known as "prooftexting". The RF are grossly and seriouslyin error of prooftextbecause they make scripture to support their view without taking any consideration for the full complete context of the scriptures they misuse. The whole opening page of the Revival Fellowship Web Site is irresponsibly jammed full of

Ok then here is the complete verses then

Eph 5:6 KJV
Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Eph 5:6 AMP
Let no one delude and deceive you with empty excuses and groundless arguments [for these sins], for through these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of rebellion and disobedience.

Eph 5:6 NIV
Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God's wrath comes on those who are disobedient.

Eph 5:6 NRSV
Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes on those who are disobedient.

Eph 5:6 ESV
Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.

Eph 5:6 NCV
Do not let anyone fool you by telling you things that are not true, because these things will bring God's anger on those who do not obey him.

Eph 5:6 CEV
Don't let anyone trick you with foolish talk. God punishes everyone who disobeys him and says foolish things.

Eph 5:6 NLB
Do not let anyone lead you in the wrong way with foolish talk. The anger of God comes on such people because they choose to not obey Him.

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Re:RF RULES AND REGS

Date Posted:29/01/2006 9:01 AMCopy HTML

$%*'`[mick]%*'`@

Anonymous,

If that is your brothers desire his wife should respect that and support him in his endevour,they might learn something and be blessed by the whole experience.This thing of keeping people tied into one point of veiw eg fellowship with us or your backsliden is harming to many people.How does it allow the spirit to enlighten and guide you if you are so ridgid with your veiw you dont asess things properly.

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Re:RF RULES AND REGS

Date Posted:30/01/2006 9:04 AMCopy HTML

$%*'`[mick]%*'`@

reply to Anonymous,

I can understand your position pastors seem to think it is their God given right to be making calls on all sorts of things that dont concern them they have no idea how to council peolpe in marriage difficulties I mean if you need a house built you would go to a builder not a doctor, these guys are a jack of all trades master of none.combined with unhealthly interpritation of the scriptures this makes biiiiiiiiig problems.I was put ot fellowship on circumstansal evidence they called it,i told them what happened and they didnt beleive me proceeded to tell me what they thought happened and i was out for 6 months.I was 17 had an extreme father who was a pastor at the time a one of the three oversight  that judged my case,and people wonder why i find it difficult to trust.I beleived i was outside gods grace and forgiveness if i wasnt in the church so i retured and continued to beleive it was all my fault,this is one of many circumstances that has contributed to where i am today.   

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Re:RF RULES AND REGS

Date Posted:31/01/2006 7:49 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : Anonymous

Reply to : mick [Anonymous]reply to Anonymous,I can understand your position pastors seem to think it is their God given right to be making calls on all sorts of things that dont concern them they have no idea how to council peolpe in marriage difficulties I mean if you need a house built you would go to a builder not a doctor, these guys are a jack of all trades master of none.combined with unhealthly interpritation of the scriptures this makes biiiiiiiiig problems.I was put ot fellowship on circumstansal evidence they called it,i told them what happened and they didnt beleive me proceeded to tell me what they thought happened and i was out for 6 months.I was 17 had an extreme father who was a pastor at the time a one of the three oversight that judged my case,and people wonder why i find it difficult to trust.I beleived

What is the next step for you then mick? you have figued out who to blame, does that help you move on?

You dont seem at peace.  I hope for you and your family that one day harmony is restored to your family.  I know that is what God wants. 

If your wife continues to fellowship at RF what will happen? are you able to accept that or will one of you have to compromise? Surly if she is happy at RF and doesnt feel the oppression then you should be happy about that?  I suppose i dont understand why your wife would have to show that she supports you simply by not attending the RF anymore?  If you have a relationship with God then  it doent matter where you go because there is always going to problems untill Jesus returns and retores the whole world.  After all you are not going to be saved depending of the church you go to so thus it shouldnt matter which church you attend.  True?

Anyway I will pray that your situation is resolved because as far as i can tell, you still believe in the Good News of Jesus

Keep on trucking Mick & Godbless

 

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Re:RF RULES AND REGS

Date Posted:01/02/2006 6:27 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : Anonymous

Reply to : AnonymousReply to : mick [Anonymous]reply to Anonymous,I can understand your position pastors seem to think it is their God given right to be making calls on all sorts of things that dont concern them they have no idea how to council peolpe in marriage difficulties I mean if you need a house built you would go to a builder not a doctor, these guys are a jack of all trades master of none.combined with unhealthly interpritation of the scriptures this makes biiiiiiiiig problems.I was put ot fellowship on circumstansal evidence they called it,i told them what happened and they didnt beleive me proceeded to tell me what they thought happened and i was out for 6 months.I was 17 had an extreme father who was a pastor at the time a one of the three oversight that judged my case,and people wonder why i find it difficult

reply to Anonymous,

You better read this again nowhere do I say that my wife should support me by leaving RF! and yes I am unhappy about the way I have been treated and what was done,but their Ideas about what constitutes salvation are presented as truth but in reality its pure assumption.If my wife wants to attend thats fine I would say the problem is not that I dont let her but rather I dont go.Many people go there beleiving all sorts of things but when it comes down to it if someone chooses not to go there they find it hard to accept .

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Re:RF RULES AND REGS

Date Posted:01/02/2006 7:51 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : Anonymous

,I can understand your position pastors seem to think it is their God given right to be making calls on all sorts of things that dont concern them they have no idea how to council peolpe in marriage difficulties I mean if you need a house built you would go to a builder not a doctor, these guys are a jack of all trades master of none.combined with unhealthly interpretation of the scriptures this makes biiiiiiiiig problems.I was put ot fellowship on circumstansal evidence they called it, i told them what happened and they didnt beleive me proceeded to tell me what they thought happened and i was out for 6 months.I was 17 had an extreme father who was a pastor at the time a one of the three oversight that judged my case,and people wonder why

Hey Mick.  I thought it was funny that they didn't mention that maybe your wife should be supportive of your decision.  All they really had to say was how you should support her decision to stay.  From the sound of their post it sounds as though they think along the same lines as the RF or are sympathetic of their viewpoint.  They asked would one of you have to compromise.  Marriage is all about compromise but in coming to a compromise does not mean one of you has to go to a church that they don't want to or leave a church they love. Compromise is a settlement of differences by giving way on both sides not one party only.

I also thought the comment that they said about you not being saved depending on what church you go to was also an interesting one.  The RCI/RF they have preached that they were the one true church and the only church that preached the right doctrine.  With that being the case you are saved depending on what church you attend.  So as far as their teachings go you are now not saved as you no longer attend.

I wonder if the previous poster has ever had a pastor tell them that they would now go to hell since they no longer attend the church.  My husband was told that when he left.  He was asked how he felt knowing that he would go to hell while I and our daughters would go to heaven.  Ridiculous guilt trips, controlling ways, messages of doom and gloom and not the first idea about grace was a few things that my husband gave up and in relation to the satement made that he is now going to hell.  I thought that God was the one that decided that not an RF pastor with not the first idea about how God, his grace and love really work.

Hope things are going ok for you.  Remember you are not alone in how you are feeling and I think it is safe to say that there are more people who know how it feels to be in your shoes and feel the way you do than there are attending the RF today.

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Re:RF RULES AND REGS

Date Posted:01/02/2006 1:00 PMCopy HTML

$%*'`[mick]%*'`@

reply to canberra,

The only ones who preach the right doctrine ,ha its not just that its their view of the doctrine is 100% correct and everyone else has compromised, as if God himself gave RF oversight the ten commandments and they are the only ones with acsess to the spirit of God and the bible.Do you think they could ever get it wrong?JK said to my father one day theres two mistakes a pastor must never make 1 to make a mistake and 2 to admit it, this is still evident in there operation today.It is important for us to remember that God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble no matter where you are in the body of christ.The Question is not what mistake was made ie degrees of sin but what you do about it,resist or confess to God.In my experience if the same standard was held up for all we would be seeing alot of oversight being put out of fellowship,hmmmm theres a thought lets all get together and put them out!

 

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Re:RF RULES AND REGS

Date Posted:02/02/2006 8:57 PMCopy HTML

(ill start calling myself Free so the sake of too many anonymous's)

Reply to : Anonymous


Reply to : AnonymousAll John Kuhlman has any decision on, is who can and cannot be a member of his little cult...Eph 5:6 AMP "Let no one delude and deceive you with empty excuses andgroundless arguments."This quote from Ephesians seems to me to be quoted completely out of context. The amplified Bible adds a little something else after the word "arguments" and it is "[ for these sins]". This is a terrible error to fall into and is commonly known as "prooftexting". The RF are grossly and seriouslyin error of prooftextbecause they make scripture to support their view without taking any consideration for the full complete context of the scriptures they misuse. The whole opening page of the Revival Fellowship Web Site is irresponsibly jammed full of

Ok then here is the complete verses then

Eph 5:6 KJV
Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Eph 5:6 AMP
Let no one delude and deceive you with empty excuses and groundless arguments [for these sins], for through these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of rebellion and disobedience.

Eph 5:6 NIV
Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God's wrath comes on those who are disobedient.

Eph 5:6 NRSV
Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes on those who are disobedient.

Eph 5:6 ESV
Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.

Eph 5:6 NCV
Do not let anyone fool you by telling you things that are not true, because these things will bring God's anger on those who do not obey him.

Eph 5:6 CEV
Don't let anyone trick you with foolish talk. God punishes everyone who disobeys him and says foolish things.

Eph 5:6 NLB
Do not let anyone lead you in the wrong way with foolish talk. The anger of God comes on such people because they choose to not obey Him.

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Re:RF RULES AND REGS

Date Posted:30/01/2011 3:00 PMCopy HTML

Section 8.2 of The Pastors Manual Of Operating Practices
Weddings: Wedding Guests:
“We would prefer that former members of the Revival Fellowship not attend wedding receptions. Exceptions may be made in the case of immediate family members.”

Section 8.3 of The Pastors Manual Of Operating Practices
Marriage: Preparation – Counselling:
“The scriptures provide good counselling for marriage, where it is needed. Please avoid counselling based upon psychology, etc, (eg questionnaires regarding the couple’s upbringing, attitudes, and so on.)”

Section 8.3 of The Pastors Manual Of Operating Practices
Marriage: Marriage to Someone Outside The Fellowship:
“In normal circumstances the church will not be involved with the marriage of an established member to someone outside the fellowship, and strongly disapproves of such a union. Counselling and warning of the consequences is required. In some cases, depending on attitude, the person may be put out of fellowship (for a time) if he/she proceeds with the marriage. Obviously there is a concern for those who seem to be struggling to find a partner. Our advice: keep trusting the Lord, rather than resorting to looking for a partner outside the Fellowship. Please remind them of the scripture “be not unequally yoked together with unbelievers.” ”

Section 8.3 of The Pastors Manual Of Operating Practices
Marriage: Spouse Not In Fellowship:
“The believing spouse should be advised not to be constantly ‘pushing’ the unbelieving spouse. It is important that someone in such a position does not allow the situation to dominate their happiness in the Lord. The believing spouse may need to be reasonable with requests from their partner regarding other activities during meeting times, but not too generous.”

Section 8.4 of The Pastors Manual Of Operating Practices
Separation And Divorce: Based on 1 Cor 7:11, Is Temporary Separation Within Marriage Acceptable?:
“Generally speaking the answer is ‘no’. It is agreed that this verse does not apply to simply argumentative or bitter couples. Such cases should be handled in order by counselling, then reprimand, or in extremely uncooperative cases, a time out of fellowship for one or both partners. Difficult cases should be discussed with the Council.”

Section 11.5 of The Pastors Manual Of Operating Practices
Typical Wedding Rules (Appendix 8A): 1) A Full Assembly Wedding:
“If couples are contemplating inviting those who have fallen away or have been put out of fellowship, they must consult with the pastor first. Ordinarily, we would not invite such folk to the reception as it can lead to awkward situations and embarrassment for some.”

Section 11.7 of The Pastors Manual Of Operating Practices
Example Of A Funeral Service (Appendix 8C): The Service:
“The Eulogy… (……) was born as (name in full) in (city of birth) in (year of birth). When he passed away peacefully on (day) he had reached the age of (..). (……)had (details of siblings, etc.) In his younger days, he liked…”

“Eulogy leads through to his testimony… (Relate what led him to find the Lord, how he was saved, subsequent involvement and ministries in the assembly. Possibly relate any recent expressions of hope and confidence in the Lord from the late brother. Perhaps a reminder that for those present, to see the deceased again, they will need to get / stay saved. This could be a suitable time to relate any desires that the late brother had for loved ones to be saved.)”

 
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Re:RF RULES AND REGS

Date Posted:30/01/2011 5:15 PMCopy HTML

*Post deleted.


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Re:RF RULES AND REGS

Date Posted:30/01/2011 6:02 PMCopy HTML

Guest, all of these rules and regulations are completely bonkers. No normal church operates like this. RF is quite obviously a cult. These rules and regs are designed to control members and nothing more. There are no scriptural precedents for any of them.

But come on Ian, let's see you go through them one by one, supporting those that agree with your particular interpretation and rejecting those which you oppose.

How very amusing. You do waste a lot of time, don't you?
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Re:RF RULES AND REGS

Date Posted:30/01/2011 7:44 PMCopy HTML

Reply to Guest

Section 8.2 of The Pastors Manual Of Operating Practices
Weddings: Wedding Guests:
“We would prefer that former members of the Revival Fellowship not attend wedding receptions. Exceptions may be made in the case of immediate family members.”

Section 8.3 of The Pastors Manual Of Operating Practices
Marriage: Preparation – Counselling:
“The scriptures provide good counselling for marriage, where it is needed. Please avoid counselling based upon psychology, etc, (eg questionnaires regarding the couple’s upbringing, attitudes, and so on.)”

Section 8.3 of The Pastors Manual Of Operating Practices
Marriage: Marriage to Someone Outside The Fellowship:
“In normal circumstances the church will not be involved with the marriage of an established member to someone outside the fellowship, and strongly disapproves of such a union. Counselling and warning of the consequences is required. In some cases, depending on attitude, the person may be put out of fellowship (for a time) if he/she proceeds with the marriage. Obviously there is a concern for those who seem to be struggling to find a partner. Our advice: keep trusting the Lord, rather than resorting to looking for a partner outside the Fellowship. Please remind them of the scripture “be not unequally yoked together with unbelievers.” ”

Section 8.3 of The Pastors Manual Of Operating Practices
Marriage: Spouse Not In Fellowship:
“The believing spouse should be advised not to be constantly ‘pushing’ the unbelieving spouse. It is important that someone in such a position does not allow the situation to dominate their happiness in the Lord. The believing spouse may need to be reasonable with requests from their partner regarding other activities during meeting times, but not too generous.”

Section 8.4 of The Pastors Manual Of Operating Practices
Separation And Divorce: Based on 1 Cor 7:11, Is Temporary Separation Within Marriage Acceptable?:
“Generally speaking the answer is ‘no’. It is agreed that this verse does not apply to simply argumentative or bitter couples. Such cases should be handled in order by counselling, then reprimand, or in extremely uncooperative cases, a time out of fellowship for one or both partners. Difficult cases should be discussed with the Council.”

Section 11.5 of The Pastors Manual Of Operating Practices
Typical Wedding Rules (Appendix 8A): 1) A Full Assembly Wedding:
“If couples are contemplating inviting those who have fallen away or have been put out of fellowship, they must consult with the pastor first. Ordinarily, we would not invite such folk to the reception as it can lead to awkward situations and embarrassment for some.”

Section 11.7 of The Pastors Manual Of Operating Practices
Example Of A Funeral Service (Appendix 8C): The Service:
“The Eulogy… (……) was born as (name in full) in (city of birth) in (year of birth). When he passed away peacefully on (day) he had reached the age of (..). (……)had (details of siblings, etc.) In his younger days, he liked…”

“Eulogy leads through to his testimony… (Relate what led him to find the Lord, how he was saved, subsequent involvement and ministries in the assembly. Possibly relate any recent expressions of hope and confidence in the Lord from the late brother. Perhaps a reminder that for those present, to see the deceased again, they will need to get / stay saved. This could be a suitable time to relate any desires that the late brother had for loved ones to be saved.)”

 

 Just for curiosity's sake, and despite copyright laws and what not, it would be interesting if the entire manual were available in a popular electronic format such as portable document format (pdf).

Do realize though that you are requesting comment from Ian on what really is hearsay. However if Ian does have a copy for himself of the RF 'Pastors Manual' then you would more than likely receive a fair comment.

So if you are able to supply Ian with a genuine copy of the manual then please do so.

Many years of my own academic study has molded me into the practice of validating my sources.

Perhaps if you have a copy of the manual yourself, you may be able to run the entire document under a digital camera or perhaps photocopy the same and arrange to forward it on to Ian.

By the way Ian may have a copy in his possession but if not would provide helpful source for his current doctoral thesis research.

Blessings

Eric.

.   

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Re:RF RULES AND REGS

Date Posted:30/01/2011 8:24 PMCopy HTML

Good morning, Eric.

I do have a copy of the RF 'pastor's manual'; it was provided to me several years ago.

Blessings,

Ian
email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:RF RULES AND REGS

Date Posted:30/01/2011 10:12 PMCopy HTML

Reply to Didaktikon

Good morning, Eric.

I do have a copy of the RF 'pastor's manual'; it was provided to me several years ago.

Blessings,

Ian

Howdy Ian,

 - no flies on you Ianos..

If that portion of the PH listed is ridgey didge then the only word that I can give is "dehumanising".

So out of curiosity, does the PH make any reference to inheritances and any other incomes as a point of "tithing" - or milking or siphoning some easy cash out their adherents estates ??? . I am dealing with someone now in that small gathering up north who has just come suddenly into a reasonable inheritance and I have taken great pains to tell the person to keep it quiet and say nothing to any current member of that 'fellowship'.

Blessings

Eric
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Re:RF RULES AND REGS

Date Posted:31/01/2011 1:20 AMCopy HTML

Good morning Eric,

"Pastors' Manual"

I'd say this interesting little excerpt from The Pastors Manual of Operating Practices would be authentic.  It seems to accurately form the basis of the way things are conducted within and quite possibly much of it came from the RCI.

Section 8.4 where 1 Cor 7 : 11 (should have included verse 10) would have to be the ideal, however in practice 1 Cor 7 : 15 is more applicable in Revivalist groups.  Most marriages fall apart when one party 'falls away' from their Revival group, or from the Lord as they like to word it.  Scant regard is given to 'erring' party (or reasons asked) but strong emphasis is given to the correctness of the other party remaining 'in the Lord' and this has happened a lot since the inception of Revivalism.  I think this might answer your question in another post about divorce in Rev. groups.

God Bless

Epi


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Re:RF RULES AND REGS

Date Posted:31/01/2011 1:38 AMCopy HTML

Reply to Epios

Good morning Eric,

"Pastors' Manual"

I'd say this interesting little excerpt from The Pastors Manual of Operating Practices would be authentic.  It seems to accurately form the basis of the way things are conducted within and quite possibly much of it came from the RCI.

Section 8.4 where 1 Cor 7 : 11 (should have included verse 10) would have to be the ideal, however in practice 1 Cor 7 : 15 is more applicable in Revivalist groups.  Most marriages fall apart when one party 'falls away' from their Revival group, or from the Lord as they like to word it.  Scant regard is given to 'erring' party (or reasons asked) but strong emphasis is given to the correctness of the other party remaining 'in the Lord' and this has happened a lot since the inception of Revivalism.  I think this might answer your question in another post about divorce in Rev. groups.

God Bless

Epi



Hello Epi

Curiosity beckons. I would like to borrow a copy of the 'manual' and turn or convert it into a 'pdf' and not only have it for future reference but also I would like to just sit down a read the said document for myself.

The whole process of RF governing of a person's private life is just plain 'dehumanizing'..

My memories of years ago are bad recollections of mistrust, and negative confidential conduct and personal spying etc. Backbiting and devouring one another and so on.

I must also email you privately and share some pics I have here.

Blessings

Eric
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Re:RF RULES AND REGS

Date Posted:31/01/2011 1:55 AMCopy HTML

Hi Eric.
The current  (2007 version) RF Pastors manual is available online as a MS Word document:

http://www.whyilefttherevivalfellowship.com/downloads/Pastors-Manual-Revision-Jan07.doc

From the statements on the first page it is obvious that not much has changed since the original 1995 version, so Epi is right that most of the content is brought over straight from the glory days of RCI :)

Regards,
Sin Tax Error
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Re:RF RULES AND REGS

Date Posted:31/01/2011 2:08 AMCopy HTML

Reply to SintaxError

Hi Eric.
The current  (2007 version) RF Pastors manual is available online as a MS Word document:

http://www.whyilefttherevivalfellowship.com/downloads/Pastors-Manual-Revision-Jan07.doc

From the statements on the first page it is obvious that not much has changed since the original 1995 version, so Epi is right that most of the content is brought over straight from the glory days of RCI :)

Regards,
Sin Tax Error

Thank you SintaxError  

I have saved it as a PDF and about to have a read over a quiet lunch... much obliged

Blessings

Eric 
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Re:RF RULES AND REGS

Date Posted:31/01/2011 6:33 AMCopy HTML

Reply to Epios




 Hah ha here's one for the books:

"
Over-Pastoring (Running Other People’s Lives)
Sometimes we become over-involved in our members personal and home affairs. No doubt many members have varying ideas and habits. Our aim is to apply the approved principles to our congregations but to avoid becoming too involved and perhaps dictatorial in their homes.
Please be careful to avoid crossing the line from ‗shepherding‘ to ‗taking over the responsibility‘ for the members‘ problems. Learn to pass the problem to the Lord.



Eric
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Re:RF RULES AND REGS

Date Posted:31/01/2011 8:45 AMCopy HTML


Are you kidding me? Oh, I gotta comment on some of these points. I sometimes read the cry from many a Youtube comment of Revival Fellowshippers, that they don't shun, and they're not a cult and blah blah blah... but I gotta say, after reading through this manual, "Holy Frak". Call them a sect, a cult, or a kooky commune, whatever! - This organisation just plain sucks, and, excuse my insensitivity, but the members who continue in it and bring their children up in it are fools. Fools who deserve the shallow fool's paradise they live and die in.

Section 8.2 of The Pastors Manual Of Operating Practices
Weddings: Wedding Guests: “We would prefer that former members of the Revival Fellowship not attend wedding receptions. Exceptions may be made in the case of immediate family members.”

Oh, they're going to make exceptions. Nice. They're anything if they're not gracious. "We don't shun... we cool!" Uh, yeah... although there's varying levels of shunning promoted and instructed in various assemblies, it's part of the Revival animal. Okay, you can invite formal members, but the hierarchy will not be amused, and there will be tsk-tksing. Fancy those dirty backsliders wanting to come and celebrate the wedding of two friends committing to a life of love and marriage. Exceptions may be made in the case of immediate family members. Gimme a break.

Dancing At Wedding Receptions: Dancing is not to be conducted at wedding receptions held on assembly properties. It is preferable that outside receptions also do not include dancing (but this is often beyond the scope of enforcement by the assembly).

What is this? Footloose? Do we really need to get Kevin Bacon to have a talk to the Revival bigwigs? (See video below). Now, I've seen dancing at a Revival 'dinner night' before, and it was like it hadn't rained for 40 years. What? Dancing you say? What is this physical rhythmic mechanisation? I love it that they've lamented on the concept that some wedding dancing is outside of their 'enforcement'.

[LINK SiteName=Mothrust: Movies and Modern Myth Target=_blank]http://aintchristian.blogspot.com.au/[/LINK] Be nice, for everyone that you meet is fighting a harder battle - Anita Roddick
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The following from an earlier post 31# in this thread caught my eye and brought a smile :-)

(JK said to my father one day.  "There's two mistakes a pastor must never make 1. to make a mistake and 2. to admit it.)

When I first heard this it was said to have come from Lloyd Longfield.  Whether LL or JK it's advice which I'm sure has been handed on to all Revivalist pastors.

Epi
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Date Posted:31/01/2011 12:51 PMCopy HTML

Pete et Epi,

The line between responsible pastoral stewardship, and legalism, is pretty darn broad. The former considers the national law, culture and the historic understanding of the Church on scriptural and religious matters, and trusts individual believers to act appropriately, in line with the teaching and discipleship they've received. But the latter really does go hammer-and-tongs at erecting a 'hedge around the law'; as incompetent 'pastors' are always fearful that individual believers might start thinking and acting for themselves! The RF Pastor's Manual seems to be mostly about maintaining control, given that the average assembly 'leader' apparently can't sneeze without getting the Pastor's Council's (which is shorthand for 'John Kuhlmann') approval beforehand.

The 'Rules and Regulations' are alive and well!

Blessings,

Ian  
email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:RF RULES AND REGS

Date Posted:01/02/2011 5:34 AMCopy HTML

Reply to MothandRust



Dancing At Wedding Receptions
 
Suggestion for the next "Mothclip" : Kuhlman dancing ... perhaps at a wedding..

Eric

RCI prophesies
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