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Date Posted:23/11/2005 12:16 PMCopy HTML

$%*'`[Lost]%*'`@I have been reading this forum recently but I'm particularly interested on the subject of speaking of tongues. I addressed this to all of you gentlemen because you have been very vocal in attacking the experience and discrediting it. I was a member of GRC for 10 years and have been speaking in tongues all those years up until recently when I got to read all your thoughts regarding this issue. I have never doubted before that this was the sign of the infilling of the Holy spirit and although it has been five years that I'm out of the church, I never stopped praying in tongues. Until recently, everytime I speak in tongues, all those ideas that you wrote in this forum keep hounding in my head making me doubt the gift that was given to me by God. Or was it?So, once and for all, I want to stop my misery and so give me a bullet, clear answer on the questions below.1. After I repented, got baptized, I was in my room asking for the Holy Spirit. Yes, I did say hallelujah until I got tired and stop. But when I opened my mouth again, a clear language came out. No mumbo-jumbo. Just a clear language. Tell me, what did I receive? What was that? Was it conditioning of the mind?2. What exactly do you believe now in how to be born again and be saved?3. If speaking in tongues is not the sign of the infilling of the Holy spirit, then what is?4. When Jesus said in Acts 1 that you wait for the promise of the Holy spirit, and he mentions that you will receive the power after the Holy Ghost come upon you, what is this power? Is it not the experience of speaking in tongues.5. Do you think that the tongue experience only refers to the time of the apostle and is not applicable for this generation?I'm a mess. I have so many questions but I cannot seem to remember them. Please answer as truthfully as you can. I've lost the best 10 years of my life not realizing that I'm following a man and not God. I don't want to commit that same mistake again.Thank you so much.
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Re:Questions on salvation, tongues, & the Holy Spirit

Date Posted:23/11/2005 1:52 PMCopy HTML

Reply To: Lost

 

 

 

Hi Lost before I go on I would just like to clarify that I myself have not been vocal or negative on the tongues subject to date, I have not cast any opinion on the issue so please feel free to peruse back over my posts & you will find no such negativity.

 

But rather I am listening & looking for the first time at other peoples opinions & findings in which within the revivalist way of thinking is certainly a NO NO.

 

I will not deny the fact that I spoken to all three parties concerned in this thread lightly on the subject, that were mentioned... H&S, Mr Jonah & Wazza

However my speaking to them & keeping in touch with these guys does not place me into the same kettle of fish, but I have made my intentions clear to Mr Jonah & H&S that I am prepared to listen for the first time & take a look outside the GRC & revivalism mindset, to consider the possibilities as to what if  the revivalist got it wrong.. They got it wrong with BI & follow a false doctrine there, so if  the revivalist that declare tongues is a necessity to bible salvation, that has been adapted as part of there doctrine is not 100% correct, it should be opened up for scruntiny.

Those that vehemently strive to defend it, won't & will not think outside of there square as it is the basis of separating them from the world & other Christians.

 

I may be ridiculed by some now for even considering the possibilities on tongues being a hyped up propaganda strategy to define a true Christian.

 

Have we, that attended the GRC & other revivalist networks been captivated by this one doctrine? I don't know, till date, I have opened up on the subject , to peruse over all the information now that is available to me & I can fear no such reprisals from anybody.

 

 

The one thing that has made me feel comfortable is that the scriptures once used to intimidate its revivalist members into fear that tongues is right cannot be applied to me no more.

 

The scripture Mark 3 vs 29

:but he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but he is in danger of eternal damnation.

 

This very scripture alone is used against warning people of the following dangers of speaking against tongues.

As pointed out to me ...What is considered blasphemy ? & also the scripture mentioned does not imply tongues but rather says the Holy Ghost, so therefore I have nothing to fear by acquiring the information on tongues if it is real, false or past time example or a gift to those who have received.

I believe now with the scriptures used with fear implied in them as it comes to light that they are being misinterpreted, that we can now look at other prospects of what was being said.

 

As things come to light a lot of findings are showing us that we are either being lied to & lead astray & that by believing in one mans rhetoric & way of thinking we can be so indoctrinated & believe another mans lie like so many of the revivalist still do.

 

 

Anyway I hope that gives you an understanding where I stand at present.

 

I'm sure Mr jonah, H&S & Wazza will reply shortly after me with there explanations where they stand.

 

 

Take care,    Robust

 

Robust_18@yahoo.com.au
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Re:Questions on salvation, tongues, & the Holy Spirit

Date Posted:23/11/2005 2:10 PMCopy HTML

Reply to Lost:

I addressed this to all of you gentlemen because you have been very vocal in attacking the experience and discrediting it.

Hi and thanks for your questions. On my behalf, I'm sorry if I seem to have been attacking and discrediting the experience. There has been some immaturity on my part in some of my posts (eek). That's just me... I'm not gonna pretend to be wise and tactful haha. I think Mr J has been much more respectful and Wazza has been passionate... but I'm sure they'll speak for themselves.

1. After I repented, got baptized, I was in my room asking for the Holy Spirit. Yes, I did say hallelujah until I got tired and stop. But when I opened my mouth again, a clear language came out. No mumbo-jumbo. Just a clear language. Tell me, what did I receive? What was that? Was it conditioning of the mind?

In the good ol' Revival we were told we can't go wrong, during witnessing, if the least we do is tell our testimony. My testimony is similar to yours but I believe it was conditioning of my mind. I don't believe that any one form of the ever-changing dialects I ever vocalised could ever be defined as a language but rather a free flowing randomisation of sounds. Not that it was a bad thing to chant that way during prayer. I think the whole process is relaxing and meditatory. It's one of the gifts of the spirit. I'm pretty hopeless at all of the other eight...


2. What exactly do you believe now in how to be born again and be saved?

If I was to tell you what I truly believed here you would probably think... "oh no, giggle, no, it can't be that easy? God isn't quite that nice and forgiving. He wouldn't let any old rif-raf into the kingdom. Sorry, that may be judgemental of me but it's exactly the way I thought 18 months ago.


3. If speaking in tongues is not the sign of the infilling of the Holy spirit, then what is?

See table below: The conclusion is that there is no one sign of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. There are many different signs of the outpouring of the Spirit in the book of Acts.


4. When Jesus said in Acts 1 that you wait for the promise of the Holy spirit, and he mentions that you will receive the power after the Holy Ghost come upon you, what is this power? Is it not the experience of speaking in tongues.

Why, did it feel powerful? If it did then you can check that off your list of signs from the table below, I suppose. My wife and I and many others I speak to don't think it feels a heck of a lot like 'power'. Ever touched a live wire?.. there's power (and there's me being a bit cynical again). Unfortunately in my life as a christian I never personally felt any supernatural power but respect the testimonies of those that say they have. Perhaps the word 'power' needs to be defined.


5. Do you think that the tongue experience only refers to the time of the apostle and is not applicable for this generation?

It seems from an exaustive debate in another thread that the initial and miraculous experience of of the Spirit's outpouring (where tongues were understood in their own languages) was different to the use of the gift (where no man understands because you speak to God). I think it was a pertinent and important miracle to be used during the initial preaching of the gospel. It had to be networked quickly (I'm musing). I'm sure the miracle could happen today... as much as it is possible to walk on water... and oh how I've tried lol.


I'm a mess. I have so many questions but I cannot seem to remember them. Please answer as truthfully as you can. I've lost the best 10 years of my life not realizing that I'm following a man and not God. I don't want to commit that same mistake again.

What you will read here will be confusing. There's no head guy here with a list of beliefs we all conform to. Some of the posters are well educated, others not (me), some lie, some tell the truth, some think they tell the truth, some defend blindly what they have believed for so long... because otherwise... a lot of life seems such a waste and it turns the universe completely upside down. When we complicate things too much it's easier to throw it all away rather than pursue it. The simplicity of the gospel is so under-rated.

The 16 years I spent in ignorance can be well written off as a good learning experience. You are definitely not alone in your thoughts and struggles. It's a challenge.


Thank you so much.

Good luck - Pete.

Receiving of the Holy Spirit in the Book of Acts

Scripture Place Evangelist Receiver What Received What Sign or Result
2:1-4 Jerusalem none Disciples Holy Spirit Wind, fire, tongues, prophecy
2:38 Jerusalem Peter & apostles Jews Salvation & Holy Spirit Unknown
4:8 Jerusalem none Peter Holy Spirit Persuasive speech
4:31 Jerusalem Peter & John Jewish believers Holy Spirit Evangelistic boldness
6:5,10 Jerusalem none Stephen Holy Spirit Persuasive speech
7:55 Jerusalem none Stephen Holy Spirit Vision of Jesus
8:14-18 Samaria Philip, Peter, John Samaritans Holy Spirit Something? (see v.18)
9:17-19 Damascus Ananias Paul Salvation & Holy Spirit Healing of eyes
10:44-48 Caesarea Peter "God-fearers" Salvation & Holy Spirit Tongues & praising God
13:52 Antioch Barnabas & Paul Gentiles Holy Spirit Joy (?)
19:1-7 Ephesus Paul Disciples of John the Baptist Holy Spirit Tongues &

[LINK SiteName=Mothrust: Movies and Modern Myth Target=_blank]http://aintchristian.blogspot.com.au/[/LINK] Be nice, for everyone that you meet is fighting a harder battle - Anita Roddick
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Re:Questions on salvation, tongues, & the Holy Spirit

Date Posted:23/11/2005 2:30 PMCopy HTML

$%*'`[Lost]%*'`@
I want to edit my 3rd question in my previous post but I don't know how. So here it goes:

3. If speaking in tongues is not the initial sign or manifestation of the infilling of the Holy spirit, then what is?

thanks.
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Re:Questions on salvation, tongues, & the Holy Spirit

Date Posted:23/11/2005 4:22 PMCopy HTML

1- never have i attacked the Holy Spirit in any way shape or form.

2-Just to a little simply research on when the tongues base church's started, then you will see clearly where we are all coming from.

3-The issue is not the speaking, but how the Holy Ghost saves.
A man died and went to heaven. He was met by Jesus and Jesus began to show him around. As they walked they saw some amazing things. Some too beautiful and amazing to describe. Eventually they came to a huge wall and the man heard the sound of music, laughing and what basically sounded like a party coming from behind the wall. Curious, the man asked Jesus what was going on behind the wall. Jesus answered, "Shhhh!!! Not too loud. That"s the GRC. They think they"re the only ones here!!!"
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Re:Questions on salvation, tongues, & the Holy Spirit

Date Posted:23/11/2005 6:32 PMCopy HTML

Hi and welcome to "Ask the Blasphemers".  The show where we ask blapshemers to blaspheme so eveyone can know they're blasphemers and like to blaspheme. 

Ok, so on with the show...

Reply to : Lost [Anonymous]

1. After I repented, got baptized, I was in my room asking for the Holy Spirit. Yes, I did say hallelujah until I got tired and stop. But when I opened my mouth again, a clear language came out. No mumbo-jumbo. Just a clear language. Tell me, what did I receive? What was that? Was it conditioning of the mind?

I cannot answer that for you.  I cannot interpret your experience as: 1- It's your experience and not mine;  2- I wasn't even there when it happened;

But...judging from what  you said, I would have to say it was 'not mumbo-jumbo' and was a 'clear language'.  That's all I can deduce.


2. What exactly do you believe now in how to be born again and be saved?

I am not a Christian.  However, I believe the Bible makes it clear that the Holy Spirit effects the saving work of Jesus when one believes in Christ.  All other things are steps of obedience.


3. If speaking in tongues is not the sign of the infilling of the Holy spirit, then what is?

Again, I am not a Christian so I have no opinion.  But again, Biblically, you should be asking, is there a sign?  The Bible certainly talks about fruit.  Perhaps one could look for that?


4. When Jesus said in Acts 1 that you wait for the promise of the Holy spirit, and he mentions that you will receive the power after the Holy Ghost come upon you, what is this power? Is it not the experience of speaking in tongues.

When I was a Chrisitian I always saw this as an 'equpping for service...much like the HS would come upon Old Testament saints for works of service.  But now, hmm...  I don't anything think much about it at all.


5. Do you think that the tongue experience only refers to the time of the apostle and is not applicable for this generation?

According to the Bible there is no evidence to support that it was only for the time of the Apostles.  As a non-Xian, I suspect it is all fiction...both then and now.

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Re:Questions on salvation, tongues, & the Holy Spirit

Date Posted:23/11/2005 6:40 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : Lost [Anonymous]

Now I have some questions for you...

Have you ever or do you now have any form of relationship to the Pilnuts, whether it be family, ministerial, frienship, etc?

What is the current nature of that relationship?

Ta.

MrJ

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Re:Questions on salvation, tongues, & the Holy Spirit

Date Posted:23/11/2005 7:40 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : Lost [Anonymous]

Hmm, okay.... Hi again Lost... there was a great TV series with a similar name. I wonder if polar bears are part of your problem? I hope you find yourself - truly. Pride is usually the biggest problem of all.


speaking in tongues is not the initial sign or manifestation of the infilling of the Holy spirit, then what is?


If you believe Mark 16, it lists signs - plural.... has anyone ever received all these 'signs' all at once? That'd be a very busy time at the 'seeker's meeting behind the curtain. They will follow believers but I hope you don't feel too bad if you haven't experienced all of them if not any. Jesus didn't say "this sign shall follow them".

Just a hypothetical thought - If  I was forced to lend money to someone and trust them with my life I would do so if that person displayed 'Fruits' in their lives rather than tongues. God sees our hearts and those sort of people who show themselvs as honest respectful christians are the ones I would trust, admire and respect.

There's so much dishonesty in the world that it's hard to trust anyone though, don't you think? As Ned Flander's little boy once said, in the Simpsons,... "lies make baby Jesus cry".

[LINK SiteName=Mothrust: Movies and Modern Myth Target=_blank]http://aintchristian.blogspot.com.au/[/LINK] Be nice, for everyone that you meet is fighting a harder battle - Anita Roddick
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Re:Questions on salvation, tongues, & the Holy Spirit

Date Posted:23/11/2005 9:24 PMCopy HTML

2nd reply to Lost

 

 

 

Hi Lost I was wondering if your queries have some how been summarised ?

 

Secondly, as some of those that have been so kind  to offer you some assistance & thoughts on this matter, would it be ok if I could ask you 2 questions?

 

1.)Were you involved with the one of the Australian revivalist assemblies if so which one?

2.)Where abouts are you currently residing  (eg Australia , Victoria, New South Wales, South Australia ect ect ,   I am from Sydney Australia, if you were wondering)

 

Ok Hope to here from you again!

 

 

 

Robust
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Re:Questions on salvation, tongues, & the Holy Spirit

Date Posted:24/11/2005 7:36 AMCopy HTML

$%*'`[hiptidoda]%*'`@

does it really matter in the end if you do or dont....it doesnt say IF YOU DONT SPEAK IN TONGUES YOU ARE GOING TO HELL..

  it doesnt say it...

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Re:Questions on salvation, tongues, & the Holy Spirit

Date Posted:24/11/2005 10:09 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : MrJonah

I'm sorry, I got the impression that you were part of the GRC church. I have not addressed my questions to pilinuts because basically from all the readings in the GRC forum, they still continued with the doctrine of repentance, baptism, receiving the Holy spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues which I still hang on to. I wanted to hear the other side, the extreme side of the boat which I never dared look into because of fear that I might get carried away by strange doctrine. Fear that was embossed within me that I'm trying to delete in my system. I admit now that I'm considering a lot of things so much after discovering this site, that I'm out of GRC but GRC is still within me. I have been out of the church for years and tried attending the other churches but it does'nt work for me. I've tried to close my eyes and shut my mouth to some of the ridiculous (no offense) doctrines that other churches believe. But I just seem to drift away. And the only thing that's keeping me is when I pray and hear myself speak in other languages that I know 15 years ago, I shut myself in a room, cried and despised the rotten life I had and wanted a fresh start, and asked for the Holy spirit and I spoke in tongues.
Do I feel special everytime I pray? Yes, in connection with my relationship with God and has nothing to do with other people. I don't push other people or think I'm better or more special than them because I speak in tongues. That's not my business, they have their own relationship with God. I've asked these questions so I should fully understand what I received. I've accepted the GRC doctrine without question, I saw it in the bible, changed my life and that's it, I've hang onto it with my dear life. Probably I'm a simpleton, I can accept that but to be delusional or believing something that in the end is just a conditioning of the mind is not acceptable. That's why I need to know.

Lost
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Re:Questions on salvation, tongues, & the Holy Spirit

Date Posted:24/11/2005 12:41 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : MrJonah



Reply to : Anonymous1. I was part of GRC church under NHH. After that, I attended Vineyard, AOG and many others.2. I'm currently working overseas.Lost,You seem to be ducking these two questions. Perhaps if I ask again..?1. What has been and now is your relationship with the Pilnuts?2. What country are you in now?Mr J(PS- Pilnuts have denied knowing who you are and I have no reason to doubt them...truly. But do you KNOW the Pilnuts?)



1. Yes, I know pilinut (Sabrina Warren)by reading the forum. I have no contact with her whatsoever. I have no relationship with her and probably she cannot even remember my face. I never had the chance to come up to her and say hello everytime she visits australia. But I do have a high regard for brett and her.

2. I don't understand why you need to know what country I'm in. Is this a requirement before somebody could post their questions here. I thought we are supposed to be anonymous. Why don't u just ask my name? But to answer your question, I'm in Singapore.

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Re:Questions on salvation, tongues, & the Holy Spirit

Date Posted:24/11/2005 1:47 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : Anonymous

the doctrine of repentance, baptism, receiving the Holy spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues which I still hang on to. I wanted to hear the other side, the extreme side of the boat which I never dared look into because of fear that I might get carried away by strange doctrine.

"the extreme side of the boat" - funny when someone calls it extreme and it doesnt involve ecstatic speech as part of the salvation doctrine. lol... The majority of the christian world would call the doctrine of the minority extremist groups such as UPs & Rev etc extreme. It'a all about perspective I suppose, and where you're at in the continuum of life. Everyone is on different journeys, many are convinced about all sorts of unbelievable stuff.

Ecstatic language speaking is not reserved for the christians, it seems, if you have a recent thread and researched different religions you'll find people doing the strangest stuff. The Indigo children have been using tongues for over 20 years now. I've spoken to people that fell over in a crowd at Benny Hinn crusades. This slaying in the spirit is professed by those who experience it to have been a spiritually powerful experience, but I believe is utter bunk and more mind manipulation. It's another extreme doctrine that is a pointless thing to do, but hey... if you're not hurting anyone... just watch how you land... those churches should have rubber floors.

[LINK SiteName=Mothrust: Movies and Modern Myth Target=_blank]http://aintchristian.blogspot.com.au/[/LINK] Be nice, for everyone that you meet is fighting a harder battle - Anita Roddick
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Re:Questions on salvation, tongues, & the Holy Spirit

Date Posted:24/11/2005 2:15 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : hiptidoda [Anonymous]

does it really matter in the end if you do or dont....it doesnt say IF YOU DONT SPEAK IN TONGUES YOU ARE GOING TO HELL.. it doesnt say it...

Well... no, it doesn't say that. I suppose the Revivians believe that is where ya all is goin'  if you dont seek the spirit properly and glossalate all over the place. Hell would probably suck for the first 50 million years... surely after that they'd start to turn down the heat a little and serve lemonade.... even for a few minutes. Jesus is merciful - I suppose they'll get sick of hearing all the screaming after about 600 million years and shut the place down. Remember us blasphemers, will ya guys in the New Jerusalem eh... cut us some slack and sprinkle some ice cubes down every now and again.

Seriously though, it's nice just to go to sleep at night and not feel guilty about not saying 'night' to God in tongues for half an hour before bed. Especially those nights when you have a terrible sore throat and it hurts to speak. I'm sure God doesn't mind if we don't speak to Him vocally during those times.

 

[LINK SiteName=Mothrust: Movies and Modern Myth Target=_blank]http://aintchristian.blogspot.com.au/[/LINK] Be nice, for everyone that you meet is fighting a harder battle - Anita Roddick
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Re:Questions on salvation, tongues, & the Holy Spirit

Date Posted:24/11/2005 2:57 PMCopy HTML

$%*'`[Concerned Browser]%*'`@

Reply to LOST:

I hope you don't mind me butting in, but may I make a suggestion? Do yourself a favor and stop consulting  these guys, especially Mr. Jonah. You may be  heading  for a spiritual suicide if you keep at it. He admitted that he's not even a Christian. So why bother with his arguments when he himself does not believe in speaking in tongues.

I certainly am not stopping you from looking into the doctrine which you have adhered to all these years, but just a friendly caution, be careful who to ask. Acts 2:38 is frowned upon by virtually all the Christian churches these days, but it does not mean that it is not true anymore. It may be taught by the GRC but it is not authored by Hollins.

The Word never changes no matter how unpopular people make it to be. The Word does not adjust to suit man's whims, control and convenience. Faith-only is the accepted and more popular teaching and I'm glad to hear that you are not settling for  the easy Christianity espoused by so many contemporary churches. 

One thing for sure, your experience is genuine. God has proven Himself to you in a very personal way. That has not changed, and it never will. We change. God doesn't.

PS: Lest these guys suspect me to be a Warren, NO I am not. The Warrens don't need people to defend or speak for them. They are upholding the TRUTH, and ultimately, they will be upheld by the TRUTH.

Regards and I hope you don't mind my unsolicited advise.

Concerned Browser

 

   

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Re:Questions on salvation, tongues, & the Holy Spirit

Date Posted:24/11/2005 3:58 PMCopy HTML

Hi Lost.

Let me add that I myself am out of GRC for years now, and like you, have been to AOG, Vineyard and other Pentecostal churches. I too have tried to ignore the false teachings which are prevalent there, but I could not deny my experience as described in the Book of Acts.

I know of a number of folks who are no longer with GRC and have upheld the salvation doctrine, and their assemblies are thriving and on fire. They have gotten rid of spiritual control and abuses  but have not compromised the salvation doctrine. Just thought I'd mention this.

You are not alone in your experience.

Hang in there.

Concerned Browser

    

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Re:Questions on salvation, tongues, & the Holy Spirit

Date Posted:24/11/2005 7:46 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : Concerned Browser [Anonymous] - whoever you may be

They are upholding the TRUTH, and ultimately, they will be upheld by the TRUTH.

Truth... Truth... Truth... Truth... Truth... Truth... Truth... Truth... Truth... Truth... Truth... Truth...

Hmmm... What is truth?

In our contemporary culture truth is subjective. Whatever I happen to believe is true for me, and whatever you choose to believe is true for you. In that way of thinking, if the only truth is your own beliefs, then you will never see a truth bigger than yourself or your particular church

Our contrary self deceptions are the very things from which we need to be liberated from. We certainly have the right to believe what we like but as soon as we start to seal the deal and close our minds we stop learning and growing properly... our growth becomes stunted and deformed. Instead of a glass that overflows we have a glass with a lid glued on. ummm, i'm out of analogies now.

Jesus told an analogy (parable) about two men. A tax collector and  a pharisee (super righteous religious professional of the day famous for keeping every detail of the law). The pharisee congratulated himself for being so holy and for tithing - Luke 18:9-14 "Thank God that I am not like other  people".

It is my thinking, after being part of Revival for so long, that Revivians have taken the role of the Pharisee because of their skewed way of interpreting salvation. They have taken the spirit freely given for all and perverted it by enforcing a sign... they seeketh a sign. They thank the Lord daily for not being like OTHER christians. They witness along the streets encountering arguments.. looking for faults... instead of living lives that reflect Jesus' gospel, they unabashadly take on the pharisee's ego.. the ego that Jesus scorned.



One thing for sure, your experience is genuine. God has proven Himself to you in a very personal way.


Careful what you label an absolute... the narrow mind closes rather quickly.



Do yourself a favor and stop consulting these guys



Yeah... because the best way to discuss such things is with people who only believe one side of the argument... come on! I would not like to see you run a courtroom. This is typical 'cult control' advice... close your eyes whenever you think you're in danger because if you can't see it, it can't hurt you. Open your eyes... it'll help you from falling into ditches.

Honest&Sincerely

 

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Re:Questions on salvation, tongues, & the Holy Spirit

Date Posted:24/11/2005 7:59 PMCopy HTML

Reply to this whole thread:

 

 

 

 

Before I comment on the above related notice by ( Pastor Wrongfield)

I would just like to say that I myself was honest in the replying to the concerned person who started of this thread by: LOST

 

It is here in this very forum that we all have the opportunity to cast our opinions & table our thoughts, & search for the TRUTH & demand honesty with out fear or favour.

 

 

 

 

There is a saying: SPEAK THE TRUTH & THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE!

 

Truth!  who has the truth?         

 

Jewish Gentile claims that the Warrens bear the TRUTH a member of the Philippine churches under Brett Warrens Ministry of course your going to say that when you are a member of their church & fly there flag.

 

I remember clearly & it is written here in this FORUM that Pilinut (Sabrina) has said that the PHILIPPINE ASSEMBLIES have adopted a policy of OPEN TRANSPARENCY.

 

BUT, It now seems that they will resort to deceitful tactics, invent stories & create a scenario of a concerned soul searching for truth to maybe some how coax Myself ,Mr Jonah, H&S & Wazza into some sort of catergory to display us as blasphemers & non believers leading people astray , each & everyone of us that was mentioned in this thread gave different accounts of where we stood on our positions.

 

The only reason why we were PUBLICLY sort out in this thread because all the above party of 4 Mr Jonah H&S & Wazza have voiced that they do not support the WARRENS & there revivalist church.

I am sickened by at which lengths revivalist will go to support there cause & the people they will try to quash in there endeavours to do so with those that oppose their position.  

 

We all use the Forum to our advantage as an opportunity to get our point across to express opinions share our stories & give accounts of maybe some form of abuse we have received while in a abusive & manipulative church.

 

 

I know Pilinut (Sabrina) has not publicly shown support for these 2 characters who are from the Philippines, but in way of suspicion I believe you know these people too well you have told me so yourself that Jewish Gentile is a member under Brett Warrens ministry.

 

1.)Why would he LIE to be an ex member who has been out for years to support LOST's posts.?

2.)Why does LOST say he is in Singapore when the ip address he was using was showing that he is in the Philippines. LOST are you a member too off the Philippine assemblies too?

3.)LOST what are your intentions by creating a thread based on lies?

 

4.) Pilinut do you have any further to add on dishonesty & deceit in which was displayed here, within the ranks of the Philippine assemblies?

 

 

Do you guys still claim to be transparent or do you resort to nasty tricks & deceitfulness to portray yourselves as the right alternative FLAGGING THE TRUTH?

 

How is what has been displayed here any different to the behaviour that the GRC & other revivalist resort too?

 

Over to you   LOST Jewish Gentile & Pilinut!

 

 

 

Robust

Robust_18@yahoo.com.au

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Re:Questions on salvation, tongues, & the Holy Spirit

Date Posted:24/11/2005 9:28 PMCopy HTML




So Anonymous you said "I have tryed the AOG, Vineyard and other Pentecostal churches and have tried to ignore the false teaching which are prevalent there".

Ok, fine, now back it up, with some evidence.

If they have false teaching, please share with all of us what they are?

Are you man enough to do this on this forum? Or do you run and hide and say we are right all the rest are false?
A man died and went to heaven. He was met by Jesus and Jesus began to show him around. As they walked they saw some amazing things. Some too beautiful and amazing to describe. Eventually they came to a huge wall and the man heard the sound of music, laughing and what basically sounded like a party coming from behind the wall. Curious, the man asked Jesus what was going on behind the wall. Jesus answered, "Shhhh!!! Not too loud. That"s the GRC. They think they"re the only ones here!!!"
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Re:Questions on salvation, tongues, & the Holy Spirit

Date Posted:24/11/2005 9:41 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : robust

Spot on man. This site is about finding the truth and has been very helpful as a tool for people during the healing process. And LOST post is nothing more than a fake, and to make different one's look bad. You would expect a child in pre-school to act like this.

A man died and went to heaven. He was met by Jesus and Jesus began to show him around. As they walked they saw some amazing things. Some too beautiful and amazing to describe. Eventually they came to a huge wall and the man heard the sound of music, laughing and what basically sounded like a party coming from behind the wall. Curious, the man asked Jesus what was going on behind the wall. Jesus answered, "Shhhh!!! Not too loud. That"s the GRC. They think they"re the only ones here!!!"
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Re:Questions on salvation, tongues, & the Holy Spirit

Date Posted:24/11/2005 11:35 PMCopy HTML

Hey Wazza, the serial poster, hows it going?, is there a reward program I dont know about for serial posting or something? If so i want to collect frequent poster points too....I will have to think of some other topics to bring up....

I wonder if Lost & Jewish Gentile have forfieted there poster points for being decietful about their Identities. mmmmmm

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Re:Questions on salvation, tongues, & the Holy Spirit

Date Posted:25/11/2005 2:44 AMCopy HTML

Im sorry to keep at this but something is bothering me with this thread although there have been those caught out lying,

I still have a strong suspicion that LOST is indeed the daughter(Kate) of Pilinut (Sabrina)

 

1.)Firstly I would like to point out again that we know this person:Lost has lied in this thread about his/her location as to where they are from as there post were traced back to Filipino IP addresses

 

2.)Reason I come to this conclusion is that the story bears striking similarities with Kates life mixed with a bit of non fiction.

 

Lost say: 1. I was part of GRC church under NHH. After that, I attended Vineyard, AOG and many others.

               2. I'm currently working overseas.

 

3.)Kate also was originally afflilated with GRC under NHH with her parents.

 

4.)Kate also has attended Vineyard, AOG & many others churches since they broke away from the GRC.

 

Lost says:I've accepted the GRC doctrine without question, I saw it in the bible, changed my life and that's it, I've hang onto it with my dear life. *Probably I'm a simpleton*, I can accept that but to be delusional or believing something that in the end is just a conditioning of the mind is not acceptable. That's why I need to know.

 

5.)Kate has very good reason to defend her Father & Mothers position as they too fully acknowledge & still hold dear to them the very fundamental aspects of the GRC salvation doctrine without question.

6.)while casting doubt & asking for our assistance in this thread on our position on tongues, she still declares that it could not be acceptable for one to believe that it could be a conditioning of the mind, So, she is answering her own doubt with her own answers.

So in turn it was a posed question in order to support an argument that has been continually debated by the Pilinuts through-out this forum over recent months.

 

 

7.) And finally the phrase: *Probably I'm a simpleton*   since the post was made from the Philippines I doubt very much a Filipino would know what a * simpleton* was but is rather is a word used amongst western nations & you will not find the word

*simpleton* within the Filipino language thus supporting my claim it is Kate or another member of the family who is a westerner.

8.)I know Pilinut has denied any family involvement with the *LOST's posts but either way if they deny it there is still something fishy going on with the involvement & the intentions of this thread.

 

 

 

Thanks Again Robust

Robust_18@yahoo.com.au

 

 

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Re:Questions on salvation, tongues, & the Holy Spirit

Date Posted:25/11/2005 3:49 AMCopy HTML

Here's my take on the situation...

Yes, it looks bad for the former Philippine GRC aligned churches.

However, it is possible that the Pilnuts were not party to the goings on of other P'Pino church members.  So while it stinks of deception, it is entirely possible that the Pillnuts are innocent.  Please keep that in mind.   Inspite of circumstantial evidence, they are still innocent until proven guilty.  And I suspect we will never prove anything.

LOST is a liar.  Plain and simple.  She (why do I get feeling it's a girl?) claims to be from Singapore, but her ISP is P'pino.  I lived in Singapore and KNOW that they do not reroute anything through the P'pines.  So she is a dirty rotten scoundrel and was up to God knows what.  She cannot be trusted.

Concerned Browser/Jewish Gentile perhaps should have identified his/herself as a member of the P'pine church but did not.  While this may be decepetive, it still is perhaps just an ignorance on his/her part and ,while may be seen as wrong, could be interpreted as unethical and not more than that.  But using numerous IDs is a bit too much.  I suggest that all people who post should be consistent in their ID at least.

Either way, well done P'pine church.  Any credibility you may have once possessed is out the window.  Perhaps this is alesson for you guys about the real world.  It's not a cult out here and you cannot hide for long or seek to control information.  Get a grip and know trhat you are just people...and from what we have seen...LIARS AT BEST.  What would Jesus do?  I suspect he would not be pleased.

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Re:Questions on salvation, tongues, & the Holy Spirit

Date Posted:25/11/2005 4:58 AMCopy HTML

$%*'`[hiptidoda]%*'`@the above is so revival center....shit.....next the aliases will say the lord gave them utterance...or should it be ignorance....my view for what its worth is ...in the end for most  of the tossers and i have seen mainly a revivalist in action(i can even smell the pricks)it is about EGO PRIDE AND JUST BEING F>>>>EN RIGHT ...and you may ask why.....take it all away and they dont really have much goin  on in there lives...they need to be like this because without they are 0...whoops wait a minute....i can feel something....."the lord feels sorry for them"(he just told me)........you can see how it works
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Re:Questions on salvation, tongues, & the Holy Spirit

Date Posted:25/11/2005 10:18 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : robust

Hey Wazza,the serial poster, hows it going?, is there a reward programI dont know about for serial posting or something? If so i want to collect frequent poster points too....I will have to think of some other topics to bring up....I wonder if Lost & Jewish Gentile have forfieted there poster points forbeing decietfulabout their Identities. mmmmmm

 

yea, going good man, work's flat chat!

As i dont have the net up and running at my new place i just logg on at different Internet cafe's.

A man died and went to heaven. He was met by Jesus and Jesus began to show him around. As they walked they saw some amazing things. Some too beautiful and amazing to describe. Eventually they came to a huge wall and the man heard the sound of music, laughing and what basically sounded like a party coming from behind the wall. Curious, the man asked Jesus what was going on behind the wall. Jesus answered, "Shhhh!!! Not too loud. That"s the GRC. They think they"re the only ones here!!!"
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Re:Questions on salvation, tongues, & the Holy Spirit

Date Posted:25/11/2005 9:46 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : thread

I know Jewish Gentile and have not asked them to contribute anything to this forum. As 'concerned browser' they did not say anything deceitful and didn't use their log-in name. So what? Is that a sin? I still have no idea who 'lost' is. It's not any of my kids nor are they conspiring with any of their friends to post here. My kids are actually not particularly interested in this forum. Kate answered Robust's accusations on another thread herself a few days ago because I was browsing here and she was in the room and I told her about them but otherwise I don't think she'd bother. "Lost" may not be a current member - I don't know who they are. Some of the locals have contacts in Singapore. Some people post for others here. I've been sent emails and asked to post stuff on the forum by different people. (not 'lost') If Mod searches everything under our ISP address not all were authored by me. I've told him about that before. There may be multiple users on one pc. And if mod starts searching everyone's ISP address he may find GRC members are using pcs in public libraries or i-cafes. It's not infallible proof of anything.

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Re:Questions on salvation, tongues, & the Holy Spirit

Date Posted:26/11/2005 5:53 AMCopy HTML

Reply to: Pilinut

 fficeffice" />

 

 

 

Why are you providing a number of possible scenarios as to how Lost's post got here.

 

Pilinut don't you get it?

 

Lost states she/he has been reading this forum for some time & has stated that she/he has edited there post, as to say, They are a user on the forum, hence they say they started this thread.

 

Now! why would Lost who claimed to be in Singapore, re-route a post that she/he wanted answered from something they read on the forum & ask a local in the Philippines to enter the post on a computer there.

 

It is clear and simple the MODERATOR has stated that he checked & rechecked that the post made were in fact made from the Philippines.

 

No post were sent from Singapore Pilinut! The user Lost has stated they read the forum & have been for some time & it is indicated that Lost started this thread & implying to editing it.

So Lost has already been proven to be a LIAR by posting from the Philippines.

As for Jewish Gentile using a anonymous identity, no it is not a sin, but as for your reply Pilinut: "So what!" If you guys within the Filipina assemblies claim to be so transparent & have nothing to hide & are not ashamed to bear the truth, why hide behind anonymity "Jewish Gentile". Member of the Filipina assemblies.

 

We have not heard from Lost since........

 

Now Pilinut read Lost post's again & tell me if you still think they are from Singapore & that they may have got a local in the Philippines to post there little exercise on the forum.

 

As you claim to have no involvement in this thread I can not understand, & maybe you can help me with this one as to why you are providing possible scenarios as to how & why Lost's post got here & defending Jewish Gentiles position.

 

Still going to provide some more possible scenarios or have you had enough digging or do you want a bigger shovel....

 

 

Robust

 

Robust_18@yahoo.com.au
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Re:Questions on salvation, tongues, & the Holy Spirit

Date Posted:26/11/2005 12:42 PMCopy HTML

Pilinut  Pilinut  Pilinut !!!

 fficeffice" />

 

 

Ducking & avoiding.... Your so, like a politician, but now you are saying a likely scenario is Lost flew over for a hundred for a $100 & posted in the Philippines by maybe some how using a relatives Internet caf?  Man where does it stop with the excuses.

 

Lost started this thread!  I know it! I'm sure everyone else knows it !  I think deep down you know it & I'm pretty sure Lost knows it!

 

Now you say that I have asked you to post on behalf of me, that is a lie, I have been capable of posting my own posts since day one & have not asked you to post on my behalf.

However I have ask you to attach pictures & links relating to the (Brydon golf & Sally Addison modeling issues & that is all.)

I'm sure people who read the forum & like Lost has stated for some time I think she/he is apt enough to post her/his message to this forum.

 

Now you say you don't have a beef with the Moderator checking ip addresses but you think that people within the GRC ranks would be concerned about this, they have nothing to fear as it is just an ip address that states if they are using a computer perhaps within the same country, household, library or I-caf?

But if they chose to use a different alias within that ip address it would still be clearly identifiable that it is the same user. Why should this be scrutinised when keeping this forum running is based on keeping people honest & posting with integrity.

 

Now Jewish Gentile has said she/he does not speak for the Warrens, perhaps she/he might want to explain why she/he posted as Concerned Browser & not Jewish Gentile.

 

And again I ask where is Lost now?  perhaps she/he can explain themselves instead of letting you do all the ducking & guessing as to why & how the post was started?

 

 

 

Robust

 

 

Robust_18@yahoo.com.au
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Re:Questions on salvation, tongues, & the Holy Spirit

Date Posted:26/11/2005 7:17 PMCopy HTML


Why does the Revival Fellowship preach tongues ‘as a sign’ if Jesus stipulated that no signs would be given except the Resurrection itself? (Matthew 12:38-40Mark 8:12-13)

Why are there 8 steps to salvation on the Revival Fellowship website if the Bible repeatedly says that we are saved by faith in Jesus Christ alone? (e.g. John 3:16, Romans 3:28-30Romans 4:5Romans 5:1Romans 10:4Romans 10:9Romans 10:13Romans 11:6Galatians 2:16Galatians 2:21,Galatians 3:5-6Galatians 3:24Ephesians 2:8-9)

Why are there fifteen salvation accounts in Acts that don’t include references to tongues? (other than the oft-quoted 3 which do) [further reading]

Why are none of the other qualifying signs listed in Mark 16 taken in an essential-every-time way? For example:

  • Why aren’t all believers immune to snake bites?
  • Why don’t all believers successfully lay hands on the sick?
  • Why don’t all believers cast out devils? (What does this even mean?)
  • Why aren’t all believers resistant to deadly poison?

Why is tongues treated differently? How is the Revival Fellowship justified in making tongues a universal sign but relegating the other signs to mere possibilities?

Why are there approximately 250 million Christians worldwide who speak in tongues that don’t preach it as a doctrine? Why hasn’t the Holy Spirit (that they have evidenced by their tongues) shown them the ‘truth’?

How could the Spirit be so much ‘weaker’ in these 250 million people than in the 30,000 in the Revival fellowship? How are Revival Fellowship tongue speakers any more enlightened then the other tongue speakers? How is this possible?

What is the statistical probability of 250 million tongue-speaking Christians worldwide, being collectively misled by the Spirit, in contrast with the 30,000 in the Revival Fellowship?

Why are there so many tongue speakers worldwide in all sorts of religious and secular scenarios?

Why do tongues predate Christianity?

Why did Jesus forgo so many opportunities to explain necessity of speaking in tongues in avoiding eternal torture?

Why didn’t Jesus equate tongues with the reception of the Holy Spirit?

Why didn’t the authors of epistles clearly re-iterate the simple requirement that a true believer must speak in tongues, rather than rely on the assumed knowledge of the readers?

Why did Luke, when preaching ‘repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ’ stipulate he had ‘not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God‘? (Acts 20:21-27) Why was there no mention of tongues?

Why does Ephesians 1:13 say the Holy Spirit the seal given after belief? Why aren’t tongues mentioned at all?

Why does Paul write that, ‘Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes’? (Romans 10:4)

Is it reasonable that the God, who will determine the salvation of humanity on whether they spoke in tongues or not, did not state this truth more clearly and unequivocally so that so many people are not misled? Why isn’t it more obvious?

Why do a series of specific scriptures have to be read in a certain order from one translation to validate the Revival Fellowship’s salvation message?

Why is the only scripture that supposedly links tongues with Holy Spirit so hazy? (John 3:8) Why would Jesus only tell one person, at night, in secret and in a nonsensical riddle?

Why did the first people who spoke in tongues in the Bible speak known languages? Why doesn’t this happen anymore?

When did tongues transition from known languages (xenolalia) to unknown languages (glossolalia)? Why did this happen? Why isn’t this explained in the Bible?

Why is the event that happened at Pentecost so different to what happens in the Revival Fellowship?

Why does the Revival Fellowship sit alone in the essential-tongues realm of Chrisitanity?

Why are there are so few people that can ‘really’ understand the Bible to the extent of the Revival Fellowship?

Why didn’t the essential-tongues doctrine exist before the 1900s?

If this is because we are in the ‘latter rain’ now – what about the Christians before the latter rain? What does this mean for those who died for the faith or those who wrote, translated and complied the Bible?

Why has speaking in tongues existed prior to Christianity? If one is of God and one is not – how would an unbeliever discern God’s sign? (I Corinthians 14:22)

Why do tongues primarily include phonemes from the language of the speaker? For example, why are Russian tongues primarily made up of unpatterned reorganizations of the Russian language? Why is this the pattern in every country?

Why can tongues be proven a learned behaviour? (Journal of Abnormal Psychology 1986, Vol. 95, No. 1,21-23 PDF)

Sixty subjects listened to a 60 second sample of tongues (defined to them as pseudolanguage) and then attempted to produce tongues on a 30 second baseline trial. Afterward, half of the subjects received two training sessions that included audio- and videotaped samples of tongues interspersed with opportunities to practice tongues. Also, live modelling of tongues, direct instruction, and encouragement were provided by an experimenter. Both the trained subjects and untreated controls attempted to produce tongues on a 30 second post-test trial. About 20% of subjects exhibited fluent tongues on the baseline trial, and training significantly enhanced fluency. Seventy percent of trained subjects spoke fluent tongues on the post-test. Our findings are more consistent with social learning than with altered state conceptions of tongues.

Why were 20% immediately able to reproduce fluent tongues?

Why were 70% able to speak in tongues after more exposure and practice?

How is ‘practice’ any different to ‘seeking’?

Why were there no seekers meetings in the Bible?

Why are the statistics of this Godless experiment so similar to people who ‘receive’ in the Revival Fellowship?

How will anyone ever be able to distinguish between the two?

How do I know my tongue of God if I repetitiously ‘practiced’ after hearing tongues my whole life (let alone the 60 second samples)?

Why does the Bible condemn repetitious prayer? (Matthew 6:7)

If Jesus was baptised as an example for us and also received the Spirit as an example for us – why didn’t he speak in tongues? If Jesus didn’t ‘need to’ because he was God, why was he baptised?

Why do most new tongues sound like the word they’ve been repeating really fast?

How do the pastors distinguish between repetitive harla-harla-harla’s and tongues that sound identical?

How could anyone tell the difference?

Why do seekers need to be ‘alleluiaering’ (and very repetitively at that) for God to fill them with the Holy Spirit?

Isn’t that doing the hard-yards for God? How is this in anyway a sign ‘to them that believe not’? (1 Corinthians 14:22)

Why didn’t the disciples harla-harla-harla? Or anyone else in the Bible?

Why does someone have to ‘let go’ of their tongue before the Holy Spirit may gain access?

What is stammering?

Why does no one stammer in the Bible?

How much of the Holy Spirit do you have when stammering?

Why are the phrases below so popular? And what do they mean?

– When I was seeking I felt my tongue starting to change, but it just didn’t quite happen
– We were not sure if I spoke in tongues so the pastor prayed with me to confirm it
– When I was seeking I got tongue tied and had to stop for a while
– After I spoke in tongues it still took me a few weeks to realise what I had
– I got a stammering tongue at first, but after a while it got more fluent

Why are these not addressed in scripture? [further reading]

Why are some tongues received ‘quietly’ without a life transformation and other times no tongues are present but a positive life transformation? Which one is God inspired? Which one is Biblical?

Why does Paul ask whether all speak in tongues rhetorically? (1 Corinthians 14:28-30)

Why does the Revival Fellowship preach this is the context of a ‘meeting’ if Paul also asks if all are apostles? Or prophets – which clearly not all ‘in a meeting’ are apostles or prophets? (1 Cor 14:28-30) Why is the answer an implied ‘no’?

Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

Why does the Greek word used in these questions imply the answer is ‘no’? ()

Why have other scriptures with the same Greek word () been translated as a negative or rhetorical ‘no’? (E.g. Romans 9:14; Luke 22:35Romans 11:1Romans 3:5-6)

Why do other translations read, ‘Not all have the gift of healing, do they? Not all speak in other languages, do they? Not all interpret, do they?’ (1 Corinthians 12:30)

Why is the Revival Fellowship alone in this interpretation? Why doesn’t the Strongs concordance (sold in the Vogue bookshop) back up this unique interpretation? Why aren’t there any other published concordances that have the same interpretation?

Why would Paul write to the Corinthian church asking them ‘do all speak in tongues?’ in the same breath as ‘are all prophets?’ Clearly the desired answer to this series of rhetorical questions are all the same. Is it then a yes or a no?

Was the entire Corinthian church prophets? Is it more likely that everyone in the church was all of these things or not all of these things?

Why does Paul distinguish between differing manifestations of the Holy Spirit? (1 Cor 12:7-11)

Why does Paul say, ‘for to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another different kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues. But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will’? (1 Corinthains 12:7-11)

Why doesn’t the Revival Fellowship mandate other signs that follow believers in the Bible? E.g. boldness, prophesy, etc

Why haven’t linguists found any identifiable semantics, syntax, or morphology in tongues?

Further reading:

Glossolalia as Learned Behavior: An Experimental Demonstration (PDF)
Why Tongues Can’t be the Definitive Sign
Speaking in Tongues

A study on Glossolalia as language

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Re:Questions on salvation, tongues, & the Holy Spirit

Date Posted:27/04/2009 8:22 AMCopy HTML

 We know that there were THREE THINGS that always needed to happen when someone wanted to become a Christian in the New Testament:
  1. Repentance
  2. Water Baptism
  3. Being filled with the Holy Spirit.

-Every time, these were the three things that happened STRAIGHT AWAY. (-See Acts 2:37-41, Acts 8:12-20, Acts 10:44-48, Acts 19:1-6, Acts 22:16, Heb 6:1-2, Mk 16:16-18, etc.)

As I have said before, the doctrine of "Asking Jesus into your heart" does not exist in the Bible, and personally I would come very close to calling it a lie from the pit of hell, because it falsely assures people that they are "saved" just because they have 'prayed a little prayer'. It is very dishonest and totally unscriptural. So we know that a basic "New Testament Christian" is someone who has:

  1. Repented
  2. Been Baptized (immersed) in water, and
  3. Been filled with the Holy Spirit (-accompanied by 'tongues', as far as we can tell in Scripture).

So how on earth do we reach all these vast millions who are being duped with this half-Christianity of "Asking Jesus into your heart" - but never hear the full gospel? What on earth can be done to get this message through to them?

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Re:Questions on salvation, tongues, & the Holy Spirit

Date Posted:27/04/2009 11:02 AMCopy HTML

Yo JBMD

You'd better check your NT again.

The three *aren't* said to be requisites e.g., Ac 16:30-31; Ro 10:5-13, Jn1:9-13. Tongues certainly ain't manifested by every Christian e.g., 1 Co 12:27-30. *Your* stated position fits the bill of Ga 1:6-9. Be concerned, very concerned!!

Since you refer to "a basic NT Christian", why doesn't Jesus figure in your definition? Do you know what the word "Christian" means?

The evidence for Mann-made global warming is unequivocal.
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Re:Questions on salvation, tongues, & the Holy Spirit

Date Posted:27/04/2009 12:24 PMCopy HTML

 As I have said before, the doctrine of "Asking Jesus into your heart" does not exist in the Bible, and personally I would come very close to calling it a lie from the pit of hell, because it falsely assures people that they are "saved" just because they have 'prayed a little prayer'. It is very dishonest and totally unscriptural.
               ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To suggest that "asking Jesus into your heart is a lie from the pit of hell" is a strange thing to say from someone who no doubt professes to BE a Christian. So who DO you recommend that you love with all your heart, all your mind and all your soul if not the Lord?

What you're saying about salvation is based on works not grace. We don't have to DO anything to be saved, we are saved by grace as we read in Ephesians 2
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—a nd this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

Further to Talmid's post above - Galations 1: 6I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!10Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ. 11I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. 12I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.

John, have YOU received the gospel by revelation from Jesus Christ - or are you too busy mocking Him as many Revivalists do?

Respectfully, Urchin
Your unfailing love, O Lord, is as vast as the heavens; your faithfulness reaches beyond the clouds. Your righteousness is like the mighty mountains, your justice like the ocean depths.
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Re:Questions on salvation, tongues, & the Holy Spirit

Date Posted:27/04/2009 11:02 PMCopy HTML

 Hello John Bonham,

A question for you.  Seeing that Revival churches and United Pentecostals are the only two groups claiming your 1-2-3 salvation doctrine, and that United Pentecostals deny the trinity and are "oneness" or "Jesus only", does that mean that only revival churches are correct, or are the United Pentecostals also correct?  Who else is correct?  A.O.G.'s?

Regards Mr Kilometres.
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Re:Questions on salvation, tongues, & the Holy Spirit

Date Posted:27/04/2009 11:14 PMCopy HTML

Good morning, John/Dick.

We know that there were THREE THINGS that always needed to happen when someone wanted to become a Christian in the New Testament:

   1. Repentance
   2. Water Baptism
   3. Being filled with the Holy Spirit.

Really? There are three things that a person needed to 'do' in order to become a Christian? Well that's certainly interesting given that the answer provided to the only occasion in the entire New Testament where the question, "what must I do to be saved?" was asked, was "believe in the Lord Jesus". There was no mention whatsoever about submitting to 'water baptism' or striving to be 'filled with the Holy Spirit', or speaking in 'tongues'. When the repentant Philippian gaoler begged Paul and Silas what was necessary for him to do to merit eternal life, they responded that he needed to accept that Jesus was God; there were no other pre-conditions attached.

Furthermore, I seem to recall that the "1-2-3" false message of Revivalism was completely absent in Philip's evangelising of the Samaritans, and in Peter's evangelising of the gentile Cornelius and his household. In short, then, I altogether fail to see what you're making a fuss about: Scripture is completely silent when it comes to supporting Lloyd Longfield's misguided doctrinal legacy.

Every time, these were the three things that happened STRAIGHT AWAY. (-See Acts 2:37-41, Acts 8:12-20, Acts 10:44-48, Acts 19:1-6, Acts 22:16, Heb 6:1-2, Mk 16:16-18, etc.)

Rubbish.

As I have said before, the doctrine of "Asking Jesus into your heart" does not exist in the Bible, and personally I would come very close to calling it a lie from the pit of hell, because it falsely assures people that they are "saved" just because they have 'prayed a little prayer'. It is very dishonest and totally unscriptural.

Well I personally don't brook much patience with the rather silly "asking Jesus into your heart" notion either. But I suppose it does rest on surer Scriptural grounds than the even sillier Revivalist 'salvation message'.

So we know that a basic "New Testament Christian" is someone who has:

   1. Repented
   2. Been Baptized (immersed) in water, and
   3. Been filled with the Holy Spirit (-accompanied by 'tongues', as far as we can tell in Scripture).

'Yes', it seems that you certainly 'know' as much. Speaking for myself, however, I know better.

So how on earth do we reach all these vast millions who are being duped with this half-Christianity of "Asking Jesus into your heart" - but never hear the full gospel? What on earth can be done to get this message through to them?

How do we reach them? The same way the Christian Church has reached the 'lost' for the past two millenia: with the gospel of grace.

Now given the tenor of your post, do you know what the definition for 'Christian' is? Quite simply it's: "a follower of (Jesus) the Christ". The so-called 'full gospel' has nothing to do with your beliefs about 'tongues', but everything to do with the birth, life, ministry, death, resurrection and ascension of Jesus of Nazareth. And until you properly understand the basic 'definitions' of the discussion, you'll continue to stumble around in the dark chasing chimeras and believing Lloyd Longfield's fairy-stories.

Now you do have the power to choose. My advice to you would be to choose life! Such is a far healthier option than is the spiritual death which you currently embrace.

Blessings,

Ian

email: didaktikon@gmail.com
Didaktikon Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #34
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Re:Questions on salvation, tongues, & the Holy Spirit

Date Posted:28/04/2009 2:12 AMCopy HTML

Good morning, Ralph.

The answer, of course, is 'context'.

(1) Greeks throughout the Roman Empire had a working knowledge of Judaism. They knew what the Jewish religion promoted, and what it stood for.

(2) Acts 16 makes plain that Paul and Silas had been preaching Jesus as the Christ at Philippi, which had caused (3) something of a stir among the Jewish population of the city and surrounding areas, and which naturally enough had a (4) flow-on effect to the non-Jewish residents. (5) Casting the demon out of the slave girl (note: "in the name of Jesus Christ") was the final straw. In verses 20 and 21 the statement was made that Paul and his entourage were (6) Jews who were advocating religious practices and customs which (7) weren't lawful. Judaism, however, was (8) a legally recognised, protected and tolerated religion under Roman law; (9) Christianity, however, was not.

It's clear then, that the Philippian gaoler (10) understood that Paul and Silas represented the God whom they preached--Jesus Christ. (11) So when this God freed the two missionaries after the fashion that he did, (12) the gaoler reacted in a completely appropriate way: he (13) was baptised. Now given that baptism is described in Scripture as a rite that follows the imparting of spiritual salvation, clearly the gaoler had been asking about eternal life. So which part of this simple logic train did you miss?

I've previously discussed the other two examples that you quoted at length, so there is no point in rehearsing the same again, now.

Context, context, C-O-N-T-E-X-T.

Blessings,

Ian

email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:Questions on salvation, tongues, & the Holy Spirit

Date Posted:23/08/2010 6:28 PMCopy HTML

 Ian, could you answer the five questions raised by Lost at the beginning of this thread? There is your website, but it would be nice to have it here in compact form. Notably, are there two types of tongues (Pentecost = intelligible, after Pentecost, not intelligible), and if so, what is the significance of today's (non intelligible) tongues?
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Re:Questions on salvation, tongues, & the Holy Spirit

Date Posted:25/08/2010 7:23 AMCopy HTML

I do believe that speaking in tongues is one of the gifts that God gives. It is one part of the Holy Spirit. It certainly isn't the only gift (1 Cor 12v4). I have been given that gift. I believe that tongues is supposed to be kept private (unlike the prayer meetings that the Revivalists have) at all times (1 Cor 14 v2). It says in the Bible that in church, if there is no one to interpret the message in tongues, that people should remain silent (1Cor 14v28). My own belief is that speaking in tongues should be short, and not dragged out. I only speak in tongues to express my thanks to the Lord when my heart is joyful. I do not speak in tongues unless I feel that excitement and gratitude of knowing Him! And of course, I don't allow any distractions at that time - I make sure that I am fully focussed on the glow in my heart. Lastly, forget speaking in tongues if love is lacking. One may as well be a 'noisy gong' or a 'clanging symbol'. 

I guess that my question is: if speaking in tongues is individually allocated, why is it that all people in Revival have it? I know some people have mentioned that they faked it to please their parents. I know that people have been saying that it can be learned when saying 'hallelujah' all those times. I received it that way. I know people that have just spoke out in tongues before knowing Revival and after they asked God to reveal himself.

God bless,

Faithful Shadow  
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Re:Questions on salvation, tongues, & the Holy Spirit

Date Posted:25/08/2010 8:18 AMCopy HTML

A cut and paste from ‘GotQuestions.org’

 

Question: "What is glossolalia?"

Answer:
Glossolalia, a phenomenon sometimes referred to as “ecstatic utterances,” is the uttering of unintelligible language-like sounds while in a state of ecstasy. Glossolalia is sometimes confused with xenoglossia, which is the biblical “gift of tongues.” However, whereas glossolalia is babbling in a nonexistent language, xenoglossia is the ability to speak fluently a language the speaker has never learned.

Additionally, whereas xenoglossia is not an innate or natural ability, studies have shown that glossolalia is a learned behavior. Research conducted by the Lutheran Medical Center demonstrates that glossolalia is readily learned by giving simple instructions. Correspondingly, it was found that students could exhibit “speaking in tongues” in the absence of any indications of trance-like stupor or behaviors. Another test conducted with sixty students showed that after listening to a one-minute sample of glossolalia, 20% were able to imitate it precisely. Even then, after some training, 70% succeeded.

In just about every part of the world, glossolalia can be observed. Pagan religions all over the world are obsessed with tongues. These include the Shamans in the Sudan, the Shango cult of the West Coast of Africa, the Zor cult of Ethiopia, the Voodoo cult in Haiti, and the Aborigines of South America and Australia. Murmuring or speaking gibberish that is construed to be deep mystical insight by holy men is an ancient practice.

There are basically two aspects to glossolalia. First is talking or murmuring in language-like sounds. Practically everyone is able to do this; even our children before they ever learn to speak can mimic real language, though unintelligibly. There is nothing extraordinary about this. The other aspect of glossolalia is ecstasy or the demonstration of trance-like elation. There’s nothing unusual about this either, although it is more difficult to do intentionally than merely uttering language-like sounds.

There are some Christians, especially within the Pentecostal movement, who believe there is a supernatural explanation for glossolalia similar to that described in the New Testament. They believe that the chief purpose of the gift of speaking in tongues is the manifestation of the Holy Spirit being poured out upon them just as on the day of Pentecost (Acts chapter 2), which was prophesied by Joel .
Among those Christian churches who do espouse the practice of glossolalia to one degree or another, there is no uniform agreement as to its workings. For example, some are adamant in that it is indeed a gift of the Holy Spirit while others minimize its importance, saying Paul taught that the gift of “speaking in tongues” wasn’t nearly as important as the other gifts of the Holy Spirit (see 1 Corinthians chapter 13). Also, there are those wishing to avoid dividing the church on such issues by not speaking of it at all or dismissing it as a simple psychological experience. Then there are those who regard glossolalia as a deception of Satan himself.

Recommended Resource: New Testament Teaching on Tongues by Merrill Unger.

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Re:Questions on salvation, tongues, & the Holy Spirit

Date Posted:25/08/2010 8:56 AMCopy HTML

Hi, FS.

I framed a really "kewl" and detailed reply to your post, but it disappeared into the ether as I attempted to post it. Given that I lack the motivation to redo it at this stage I'll limit myself to a single, trenchant observation: most of what you shared in your post is completely wrong. I've no doubt that such isn't what you want to hear, but it is what you need to hear

God bless,

Ian

email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:Questions on salvation, tongues, & the Holy Spirit

Date Posted:26/08/2010 2:21 AMCopy HTML

Hi, Guest.

Ian, could you answer the five questions raised by Lost at the beginning of this thread? There is your website, but it would be nice to have it here in compact form. Notably, are there two types of tongues (Pentecost = intelligible, after Pentecost, not intelligible), and if so, what is the significance of today's (non intelligible) tongues? As you noted, discussions covering that stuff appear at 'PleaseConsider'. Perhaps more importantly, I've addressed the same sorts of issues here, on this site, and in considerable detail. So I really don't see there being a need for me to keep going around the same buoy each and every time the issue is raised. Those who are interested in the subject can search this forum and find the detail that they're after. And, of course, my 'large' Acts essay (also linked at this site) pretty well sums up my views on these and related topics.

Blessings,

Ian

email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:Questions on salvation, tongues, & the Holy Spirit

Date Posted:26/08/2010 8:38 AMCopy HTML

Nawww, poor Ian! That is so annoying when that happens. I wish I could have read it too! Oh well, everything happens for a reason.

Anyway, I've read your stuff, and I'm just not educated enough to understand it, unfortunately. I tried, I really did! I never said I was right, though. When a person begins with 'I believe', generally it is stating that it's their interpretation. Yes, what I wrote is my interpretation only. I will never pretend that I know anything about the divine, because I am only human. So, I therefore choose one thing. To be happy and content! I follow my spirit and my heart, and at the same time am open to the suggestions and beliefs of others. Including your very educated self!

Faithful Shadow
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