Reply to : Sea Urchin

Yo Urch

I'd just like to make a quick comment on what you write about the Christian's relationship with the Holy Spirit. (Your 5 T's seem reasonable, although it's interesting to extend the 'train' and meditate on Ga where it says that God's word is the Spirit's sword!!)

My comment: when you write 'How we can use the Holy Spirit in our lives more effectively' you tend not to recognise that the Holy Spirit is God. We wouldn't dare think of 'using' the Father or the Son! Rather, we - quite scripturally  imho - submit ourselves. When we recognise the Spirit is God, the scriptural response - as far as I can see - is to submit ourselves to Him, not 'use'  Him.

That said, FWIW, your 5 T's (as I hinted above) do seem to reflect what I see as an appropriate submission to God.

Reply to : Sea Urchin

So, forum folk, what is your understanding on the person of the Holy Spirit? Any comments Ian?

(Didi)...'Yep', your post has given me plenty, but I'm really trying to be a little more 'gracious' at the moment

(RFOT).....My comment: when you write 'How we can use the Holy Spirit in our lives more effectively' you tend not to recognise that the Holy Spirit is God. We wouldn't dare think of 'using' the Father or the Son! Rather, we - quite scripturally  imho - submit ourselves. When we recognise the Spirit is God, the scriptural response - as far as I can see - is to submit ourselves to Him, not 'use'  Him.

Hi Urch, Frank here, I know you said and comments Ian, but I felt the need to add something for you.

Fresh from a basic study of the person of the Holy Spirit, I myself cringed a little at the terms used to describe Him (the Holy Spirit) in your little 5 T's.

John 16 is a helpful read, I really am encouraged that the Holy Spirit as a person is a wonderful (another comforter).

John 16 :13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Such a wonderful relationship between the Father, Son & Holy Spirit.

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Reply to : franks ghostReply to : Sea UrchinSo, forum folk, what is your understanding on the person of the Holy Spirit? Any comments Ian?(Didi)...'Yep', your post has given me plenty, but I'm really trying to be a little more 'gracious' at the moment(RFOT).....My comment: when you write'How we can use the Holy Spirit in our lives more effectively'you tend not to recognise that the Holy SpiritisGod. We wouldn't dare think of 'using' the Father or the Son! Rather, we - quite scripturally imho -submit ourselves. When we recognise the Spirit is God, thescriptural response - as far as I can see - is to submit ourselves to Him, not 'use'Hi Franks Ghost,Also in John:- 14:11-18 and 2615:26-2720:22God BlessEpiskopeo

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Hi Ian, thanks for your comments on the points I raised;

Actually, the analogy that you've just used is incorrect. In fact, it's downright Modalistic (which is an ancient form of heresy). Why? Well the Modalists taught that God presents himself in one of three forms: as Father, Son or Spirit. But that he can only be one at any given point of time. He is Father, then he is Son, then he is Spirit. One Person, one essence. Your analogy is precisely the same: water cannot be liquid, vapour and solid at the same time. A much better analogy, one that better represents the inter-penetration and inter-relationship within the Godhead, might be to think of God mathematically: 1 x 1 x 1 = 1. Thee Persons, one essence. I guess I'm kind of hoping that you didn't get your 'water, ice, steam' thing from your Edge pastor, 'cause if you did, I'd be questioning his understanding of the Trinity, myself!

I attempted to describe the concept in what I thought was a simplistic way (not being a mathematical person) and I've never even heard of 'modalists'.  Three persons, one essence is a much better analogy as you say. No Ian, I didn't 'get it' from my pastor - it was my tiny little sea urchin head that attempted to describe something too complicated.

The role of the Holy Spirit is to rejuvenate and renew us, to guide and lead us.

Actually, the principle role of the Holy Spirit is to point us towards Jesus.

So you're saying that the Holy Spirit doesn't guide or lead us? I guess if I read my notes again, point 2 did say that it is unscriptural to say that the Holy Spirit does anything except lift up (point us towards) the name of Jesus.  Am I understanding this correctly?

How we can use the Holy Spirit in our lives more effectively (5 T's)

How can we USE the Holy Spirit?! This comment alone does one of two things: it either depersonalises him, or it makes him out to be little more than a resource to exploit for personal ends

Is that an 'Angry Ian' face?   Yes, I agree, bad choice of words there!  We can't USE the Holy Spirit but surely He can use us, I'm thinking!  I apologise for my use of words here, I certainly do NOT want to depersonalise the Holy Spirit and I certainly do not consider Him a 'resource to exploit' . As I said these were my notes from a talk I heard and when taking notes it is not always possible to capture the whole sentence and all too easy to misinterpret or miss out words,  which then can give a whole different meaning. A valuable lesson, thank you.

So, forum folk, what is your understanding on the person of the Holy Spirit? Any comments Ian?

'Yep', your post has given me plenty, but I'm really trying to be a little more 'gracious' at the moment

And I really do appreciate your graciousness Ian, it is a great thing to be able to extend to others along with brotherly love. As I listen and learn more, my mind is stretched and extended and I am able to grow more.  We are all at different stages on our journey but I know that as long as I press on (with God's help) I will continue to grow.  In Phil 3:13&14 Paul says that he does not count himself to have laid hold of it but one thing he does, he forgets those things which are behind and reaches forward to those things which are ahead..pressing towards the goal..   To me (and again I may be wrong) it seems as though he's saying ' I'm still not all I should be but I'm looking forward, pushing through, breaking through'  and that is how I want to be on my journey with God.

God bless, Urchin

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A very cringe-worthy thread!

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Dog

It's usually only the abused dogs that 'cringe'!

Urch

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Reply to : franks ghostBRJohn 14:11-18 and 26, John 15:26-27, John 20:22)BRFrank's reply - Thanks, I opened up and read with enjoyment)Hi Frank,Had to leave to go to a funeral on Friday so quickly posted these scriptures. What do you make of John 20:22?"And when he had said this he breathed (emphusao) on them and saith unto them. Receive ye the Holy Ghost.Joy and peace.Epi

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Ah I hope this comes throught to you have tried 4 times today and each time I get briefer.

I am having trouble reconciling Acts 1 : 4-5 here, not knowing contexts or time of writing of John comared to Acts for one.

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Reply to : franks ghostHi Frank,Thought you might be too busy reading to answer, so have put together a few thoughts. By the way, the NLT Life Application Study Bible is a good one.John 20:22This was after Jesus' resurrection and I believe the disciples did receive the Holy Spirit and that scripture establishes this fact. There was no symbolism here.PenticostThe BAPTISM in the Holy Spirit at Penticost was a second and distinct work of the Holy Spirit. It was dramatic. The rushing mighty wind, the tongues of fire and the tongues which were understood. This has never been repeated.Acts 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalm Jews, devout men of every nation under heaven.Acts 2:6 The multitude came together and were confounded, because every man heard them speak in his own language..In Peter's sermon which followed h

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so you'll receieve power when the Holy Spirit comes. If what you are saying is right then they would already have the power and assurance from there John20 experience.

FG

Hi all

I suppose it seems a bit confusing in John 20-22 when Jesus breathed on them and said" Receive the holy spirit"  does that mean that he breathed on each of them individually or collectively or is it just a figure of speach.  Also if they received the Holy Spirit my question is who received at that time.  And what did Jesus mean in Acts chapter 1 4,5 when he told them to wait for the fathers promise.

Is receiving the Holy Spirit and the baptism of the Holy Spirit two different things

Love

Chris

Thank you episkipeo

That makes quite good sense

Chris

Sorry for spelling your name wrong

Episkopeo

Chris

Reply to : franks ghost and Chris

There is a lot of debate and differing views about John 20:22. I once asked a Pastor and was told it was a taste of what's to come. Others say it's symbolical.

I once asked pastors many things too, I don't see any authority here.

I look at it as that the disciples received the indwelling of the Holy Ghost and that Penticost was the baptism and powerful outpouring of the Holy Spirit - the beginning of the church.

What 2 fillings? and or are you sayiong there were more than the 12 on this occassion?

The Holy Ghost/Spirit was very active in the gospels - Matt 1:18-20 Mary conceived Jesus by the Holy Ghost. Matt 28:19 Disciples told to teach all nations baptising in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Mark 1:10 The Spirit descended on Jesus after baptism.
Luke 1:15 John the Baptist filled with the Holy Ghost even in his mother's womb. Luke 1:41 Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost. Luke 1:67 Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost. There's lots more.

Actually the way I read it the Spirit was active in plenty of places in the Old Testament as well. One example is Numbers 11: 17, v's 24-27. Did this outpouring bring Salvation and an entrance into the Kingdom?

The following are from reviews and commentaries:-
1. In John 20:22 Jesus used not the future but the present tense. "Receive" not "You will receive"
2. In a futile attempt to avoid John 20:22 contradicting Acts 1:1-4 you are actually proposing that Jesus was referring to a later occasion, and
therefore really meant, Receive the Holy Spirit, but not yet, not for another 40 days.
3. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit rerproduces the life of Jesus. The outpouring or baptism represents the ministry of jesus.

The above comments were made by Who?

Joy and peace
Episkopeo

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Reply to : EpiskopeoReply to : franks ghost and ChrisThere is a lot of debate and differing views about John 20:22. I once asked a Pastor and was told it was a taste of what's to come. Others say it's symbolical.I once asked pastors many things too, I don't see any authority here.I look at it as that the disciples received the indwelling of the Holy Ghost and that Penticost was the baptism and powerful outpouring of the Holy Spirit - the beginning of the church.What 2 fillings? and or are you sayiong there were more than the 12 on this occassion?The Holy Ghost/Spirit was very active in the gospels - Matt 1:18-20 Mary conceived Jesus by the Holy Ghost. Matt 28:19 Disciples told to teach all nations baptising in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.Mark 1:1

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If we can put out of our minds, the Revivalist view of receiving the Holy Spirit with the "tongues" connection, and see that it is after repentance and believing is when we receive the Spirit, then it makes the scripture more meaningful. We are told that the Gospels where written after the events in Acts, so John would have already witnessed Pentecost etc., and would have known that Jesus had already put the Holy Spirit within them at that time of writing.  When we read such as John 20: 19-31 in it's context, it's message is about having peace,(unity, concord)  belief, being filled with the Spirit, being sent out and proclaiming that sins have been forgiven, verse 23(i.e. forgiven because of His grace) and eternal life.v31. 

Pentecost also, if we can see that the events of that time was the (a sign) fulfillment of the old covenant and not the mechanics of receiving the Holy Spirit, then 'Baptism in the Spirit' is a continual pouring forth, or putting into, all that believe.

brolga

(Pentecost also, if we can see that the events of that time was the (a sign) fulfillment of the old covenant and not the mechanics of receiving the Holy Spirit, then 'Baptism in the Spirit' is a continual pouring forth, or putting into, all that believe.)  'NOT PECULIAR TO PENTECOST'

As there has been no comment on this I will assume that it is correct. Not all that is instructed is only for the Apostles at that time.  I know it is "proof-texting" but is all I can use at the moment; 

When John was proclaiming that Jesus was going to 'Baptize in the Holy Spirit', we see in Matt 3:5, Mark 5:5, Luke 3:15 and John 1:33, that he was addressing all the people.  

brolga

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Reply to : brolgaGood morning, Brolga.I know it is "proof-texting" but is all I can use at the moment;When John was proclaiming that Jesus was going to 'Baptize in the Holy Spirit',we see in Matt 3:5, Mark 5:5, Luke 3:15 and John 1:33, that he was addressing all the people.Indeed he was, which is why Paul specifically states in 1 Corinthians 12:13 that,"For in one Spirit we were all baptised into one body...", and then not so very long afterwards, he further states that not all speak in tongues (13:30). In short, the baptism of the Spirit by Christ occurs atconversion. It isnot, as the 'classical' Pentecostal position maintains, a 'second-blessing' that happenssubsequentto conversion. But what occurred at Acts 2 was a very specific 'whelming' of the Holy Spirit, one that was promised to and fulfilled in, the apostles a

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Thankyou Ian,

Yes, I was purposely not bringing the tongues connection into it, as we know the Revs so do, this is why it can appear confusing.

FWW. I haven't been able to contact Ward, re course yet, I believe he is overseas at moment, but I have already lodged an application for 2008 semester. Also started doing B' of B' Gr', Bill Mounce. The old brain starting to get exercise now

brolga

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Reply to : brolgaBRPentecost also, if we can see that the events of that time was the (a sign)fulfillmentof the old covenant and not the mechanics of receiving the Holy Spirit,then'Baptism in the Spirit' is a continual pouring forth, or putting into, all that believe.)Hi Brolga,Yes I do think that there is a continual spiritual pouring forth, or putting into otherwise I think we would stagnate.Acts 6:3 Wherefore, brethren, Look ye out among you seven men of honest report, FULL of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, who we may appoint over this business.Again in verse 5 - Stephen, a man FULL of faith and the Holy Ghost.Then referring to Barnabas:-Acts 11:24 For he was a good man and FULL of the Holy Ghost and faith................Perhaps this indicates that not all believers who were initially FILLED with the Holy Spirit continued to be FULL of the Holy Spirit, putting on the mind of Christ and bearing all the fruits.

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Good stuff Epi,

Very much the same today, we must keep our lamps full of that oil, hey!

many blessings, brolga