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Sea Urchin
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Date Posted:24/10/2007 9:31 PMCopy HTML

Evening all

Frank made some comments recently on the shoutbox and told us thathe was about to preachin a RF meetingon ' the person of the Holy Spirit'. During my whole 23+ years at RF I never heard anything substantial preached on this subject. It was only ever preached about as a vague idea with 'suitable' scriptures thrown in about "receiving the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues" etc etc (Now, where was that in the Bible again?)

I actually thought (maybe I was particularly thick but I wasn't the only one!) that the Holy Spirit was simply power from God and wasevidencedby speaking in tongues. I asked questions about the trinity early on in my walk but was told in a vague sort of way that 'we don't really take a stand on it' , so I just went along with the RF stand of ' no stand/no idea' whatever THAT means! Pst Danny (Edge Church) has a saying (in a joking way not a 'putting-others-down way' ) ' How dumb can ya get and still breathe?"

My notes from a talk heard a few months agoat church;The Holy Spirit is referred to in the scriptures as a ‘HE’not an‘IT’.

He is the third person of the Trinity – Father, Son & Holy Ghost (in much the same way as water can beice, steam or water - threedifferent forms but the same thing). The role of the Holy Spirit is to rejuvenate and renew us, to guide and lead us.How we can use the Holy Spirit in our lives more effectively (5 T's);

TIME– make time, Isaiah 40:29 says we shouldent wine ourselves around the Lord. We need to slow down andmake timefor the Holy Spirit to work on us and in us.TALK– need to talk to him and say "Holy Spirit, we are partners, help me to see Jesus more clearly". It is unscriptural to say that the Holy Spirit doesanything exceptlift up the name of Jesus. We can build more of a relationship with Jesus through the Holy Spirit.

TUNE– tune in to the Holy Spirit byexpectation e.g. say to ourselves "Iexpectto hear from God" Let the Holy Spiritimpregnateour lives -desirefor him to speak to us.TRAIN– train yourself toknowthe word of God. Speak the word straight from the Bible (study the scriptures)

TEACH– have ateachablespirit – be ready tolearn fromand to obey God.

So, forum folk, whatis your understandingon the person of the Holy Spirit? Any comments Ian?

And Frank, why don't you tell us about your talk and how it was received in TwmbaUrch
Your unfailing love, O Lord, is as vast as the heavens; your faithfulness reaches beyond the clouds. Your righteousness is like the mighty mountains, your justice like the ocean depths.
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Re:Person of The Holy Spirit (and Trinity?)

Date Posted:25/10/2007 5:09 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : Sea Urchin

Yo Urch

I'd just like to make a quick comment on what you write about the Christian's relationship with the Holy Spirit. (Your 5 T's seem reasonable, although it's interesting to extend the 'train' and meditate on Ga where it says that God's word is the Spirit's sword!!)

My comment: when you write 'How we can use the Holy Spirit in our lives more effectively' you tend not to recognise that the Holy Spirit is God. We wouldn't dare think of 'using' the Father or the Son! Rather, we - quite scripturally  imho - submit ourselves. When we recognise the Spirit is God, the scriptural response - as far as I can see - is to submit ourselves to Him, not 'use'  Him.

That said, FWIW, your 5 T's (as I hinted above) do seem to reflect what I see as an appropriate submission to God.

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Re:Person of The Holy Spirit (and Trinity?)

Date Posted:25/10/2007 7:06 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : Sea Urchin

Urch,

I asked questions about the trinity early on in my walk but was told in a vague sort of way that 'we don't really take a stand on it' , so I just went along with the RF stand of ' no stand/no idea' whatever THAT means! Pst Danny (Edge Church) has a saying (in a joking way not a 'putting-others-down way' ) ' How dumb can ya get and still breathe?"

My notes from a talk heard a few months ago at church;

The Holy Spirit is referred to in the scriptures as a ?HE' not an ?IT'. He is the third person of the Trinity - Father, Son & Holy Ghost (in much the same way as water can be ice, steam or water - three different forms but the same thing).


Actually, the analogy that you've just used is incorrect. In fact, it's downright Modalistic (which is a form of heresy). Why? Well the Modalists taught that God presents himself in one of three forms: as Father, Son and Spirit. He is Father, then he is Son, then he is Spirit. One Person, one essence. Your anology is the same: water cannot be liquid, vapour and solid at the same time. A better analogy might be to think of God mathematically: 1 x 1 x 1 = 1. Thee Persons, one essence.

The role of the Holy Spirit is to rejuvenate and renew us, to guide and lead us.

The role of the Spirit is to point us towards Jesus.

How we can use the Holy Spirit in our lives more effectively (5 T's)

How can we USE the Holy Spirit?! This comment alone does one of tow things: it either depersonalises him, or it makes him out to be little more than a resource

So, forum folk, what is your understanding on the person of the Holy Spirit? Any comments Ian?

'Yep', but I'm trying to be a little more 'gracious' at the moment

Blessings,

Ian
email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:Person of The Holy Spirit (and Trinity?)

Date Posted:25/10/2007 7:38 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : Sea Urchin

So, forum folk, what is your understanding on the person of the Holy Spirit? Any comments Ian?

(Didi)...'Yep', your post has given me plenty, but I'm really trying to be a little more 'gracious' at the moment

(RFOT).....My comment: when you write 'How we can use the Holy Spirit in our lives more effectively' you tend not to recognise that the Holy Spirit is God. We wouldn't dare think of 'using' the Father or the Son! Rather, we - quite scripturally  imho - submit ourselves. When we recognise the Spirit is God, the scriptural response - as far as I can see - is to submit ourselves to Him, not 'use'  Him.

Hi Urch, Frank here, I know you said and comments Ian, but I felt the need to add something for you.

Fresh from a basic study of the person of the Holy Spirit, I myself cringed a little at the terms used to describe Him (the Holy Spirit) in your little 5 T's.

John 16 is a helpful read, I really am encouraged that the Holy Spirit as a person is a wonderful (another comforter).

John 16 :13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Such a wonderful relationship between the Father, Son & Holy Spirit.

it is the glory of God to conceal a matter but the honour of kings to search it out.
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Re:Person of The Holy Spirit (and Trinity?)

Date Posted:25/10/2007 8:14 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : franks ghost



Reply to : Sea UrchinSo, forum folk, what is your understanding on the person of the Holy Spirit? Any comments Ian?(Didi)...'Yep', your post has given me plenty, but I'm really trying to be a little more 'gracious' at the moment(RFOT).....My comment: when you write'How we can use the Holy Spirit in our lives more effectively'you tend not to recognise that the Holy SpiritisGod. We wouldn't dare think of 'using' the Father or the Son! Rather, we - quite scripturally imho -submit ourselves. When we recognise the Spirit is God, thescriptural response - as far as I can see - is to submit ourselves to Him, not 'use'

Hi Franks Ghost,

Also in John:- 14:11-18 and 26
15:26-27
20:22

God Bless
Episkopeo
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Re:Person of The Holy Spirit (and Trinity?)

Date Posted:25/10/2007 8:25 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : Episkopeo

Reply to : franks ghostReply to : Sea UrchinSo, forum folk, what is your understanding on the person of the Holy Spirit? Any comments Ian?(Didi)...'Yep', your post has given me plenty, but I'm really trying to be a little more 'gracious' at the moment(RFOT).....My comment: when you write'How we can use the Holy Spirit in our lives more effectively'you tend not to recognise that the Holy SpiritisGod. We wouldn't dare think of 'using' the Father or the Son! Rather, we - quite scripturally imho -submit ourselves. When we recognise the Spirit is God, thescriptural response - as far as I can see - is to submit ourselves to Him, not 'use'Hi Franks Ghost,Also in John:- 14:11-18 and 2615:26-2720:22God BlessEpiskopeo
Thanks, I opened up and read again with enjoyment.
it is the glory of God to conceal a matter but the honour of kings to search it out.
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Re:Person of The Holy Spirit (and Trinity?)

Date Posted:25/10/2007 8:51 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : Didaktikon

Hi Ian, thanks for your comments on the points I raised;

Actually, the analogy that you've just used is incorrect. In fact, it's downright Modalistic (which is an ancient form of heresy). Why? Well the Modalists taught that God presents himself in one of three forms: as Father, Son or Spirit. But that he can only be one at any given point of time. He is Father, then he is Son, then he is Spirit. One Person, one essence. Your analogy is precisely the same: water cannot be liquid, vapour and solid at the same time. A much better analogy, one that better represents the inter-penetration and inter-relationship within the Godhead, might be to think of God mathematically: 1 x 1 x 1 = 1. Thee Persons, one essence. I guess I'm kind of hoping that you didn't get your 'water, ice, steam' thing from your Edge pastor, 'cause if you did, I'd be questioning his understanding of the Trinity, myself!

I attempted to describe the concept in what I thought was a simplistic way (not being a mathematical person) and I've never even heard of 'modalists'.  Three persons, one essence is a much better analogy as you say. No Ian, I didn't 'get it' from my pastor - it was my tiny little sea urchin head that attempted to describe something too complicated.

The role of the Holy Spirit is to rejuvenate and renew us, to guide and lead us.

Actually, the principle role of the Holy Spirit is to point us towards Jesus.

So you're saying that the Holy Spirit doesn't guide or lead us? I guess if I read my notes again, point 2 did say that it is unscriptural to say that the Holy Spirit does anything except lift up (point us towards) the name of Jesus.  Am I understanding this correctly?


How we can use the Holy Spirit in our lives more effectively (5 T's)

How can we USE the Holy Spirit?! This comment alone does one of two things: it either depersonalises him, or it makes him out to be little more than a resource to exploit for personal ends

Is that an 'Angry Ian' face?   Yes, I agree, bad choice of words there!  We can't USE the Holy Spirit but surely He can use us, I'm thinking!  I apologise for my use of words here, I certainly do NOT want to depersonalise the Holy Spirit and I certainly do not consider Him a 'resource to exploit' . As I said these were my notes from a talk I heard and when taking notes it is not always possible to capture the whole sentence and all too easy to misinterpret or miss out words,  which then can give a whole different meaning. A valuable lesson, thank you.

So, forum folk, what is your understanding on the person of the Holy Spirit? Any comments Ian?

'Yep', your post has given me plenty, but I'm really trying to be a little more 'gracious' at the moment

And I really do appreciate your graciousness Ian, it is a great thing to be able to extend to others along with brotherly love. As I listen and learn more, my mind is stretched and extended and I am able to grow more.  We are all at different stages on our journey but I know that as long as I press on (with God's help) I will continue to grow.  In Phil 3:13&14 Paul says that he does not count himself to have laid hold of it but one thing he does, he forgets those things which are behind and reaches forward to those things which are ahead..pressing towards the goal..   To me (and again I may be wrong) it seems as though he's saying ' I'm still not all I should be but I'm looking forward, pushing through, breaking through'  and that is how I want to be on my journey with God.

God bless, Urchin

Your unfailing love, O Lord, is as vast as the heavens; your faithfulness reaches beyond the clouds. Your righteousness is like the mighty mountains, your justice like the ocean depths.
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Re:Person of The Holy Spirit (and Trinity?)

Date Posted:26/10/2007 1:05 AMCopy HTML

A very cringe-worthy thread!
"for there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so" Shakespeare (Hamlet, Act 2, Scene 2)
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Re:Person of The Holy Spirit (and Trinity?)

Date Posted:28/10/2007 6:17 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : dogmafree

Hi, Dog.

A very cringe-worthy thread!

That's a bit harsh! I don't think Urch's post was anywhere near as bad as that!

Blessings,

Ian
email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:Person of The Holy Spirit (and Trinity?)

Date Posted:28/10/2007 2:08 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : dogmafree

A very cringe-worthy thread!

Dog

It's usually only the abused dogs that 'cringe'!

Urch

Your unfailing love, O Lord, is as vast as the heavens; your faithfulness reaches beyond the clouds. Your righteousness is like the mighty mountains, your justice like the ocean depths.
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Re:Person of The Holy Spirit (and Trinity?)

Date Posted:30/10/2007 8:14 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : franks ghost
John 14:11-18 and 26, John 15:26-27, John 20:22) Frank's reply - Thanks, I opened up and read with enjoyment)

Hi Frank,
Had to leave to go to a funeral on Friday so quickly posted these scriptures. What do you make of John 20:22?
"And when he had said this he breathed (emphusao) on them and saith unto them. Receive ye the Holy Ghost.

Joy and peace.
Epi


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Re:Person of The Holy Spirit (and Trinity?)

Date Posted:31/10/2007 3:53 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : Episkopeo

Reply to : franks ghostBRJohn 14:11-18 and 26, John 15:26-27, John 20:22)BRFrank's reply - Thanks, I opened up and read with enjoyment)Hi Frank,Had to leave to go to a funeral on Friday so quickly posted these scriptures. What do you make of John 20:22?"And when he had said this he breathed (emphusao) on them and saith unto them. Receive ye the Holy Ghost.Joy and peace.Epi

Ah I hope this comes throught to you have tried 4 times today and each time I get briefer.

I am having trouble reconciling Acts 1 : 4-5 here, not knowing contexts or time of writing of John comared to Acts for one.

it is the glory of God to conceal a matter but the honour of kings to search it out.
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Re:Person of The Holy Spirit (and Trinity?)

Date Posted:31/10/2007 5:40 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : franks ghost

Hi Frank,
Thought you might be too busy reading to answer, so have put together a few thoughts. By the way, the NLT Life Application Study Bible is a good one.

John 20:22
This was after Jesus' resurrection and I believe the disciples did receive the Holy Spirit and that scripture establishes this fact. There was no symbolism here.

Penticost
The BAPTISM in the Holy Spirit at Penticost was a second and distinct work of the Holy Spirit. It was dramatic. The rushing mighty wind, the tongues of fire and the tongues which were understood. This has never been repeated.
Acts 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalm Jews, devout men of every nation under heaven.
Acts 2:6 The multitude came together and were confounded, because every man heard them speak in his own language.
.

In Peter's sermon which followed he drew from the Old Testament book of Joel (2)
"In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh..........................And it shall come to pass that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved"
Peter preached on the life, death and resurrection of Jesus, His miracles, wonders and signs and the promise of everlasting life. He used a prophesy from David.
Acts 2:38 Repent and be baptised every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 2:39 For the promise is unto you , and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received the word were baptised; and the same day were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Acts 2:42 And they continued steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers.
Acts 4:4 Howbeit many of them which heard the word believed; and the number of the men was about five thousand.

No sarcasm intended here, but were all these taken into a seekers room to pray the hallelujahs to ensure that they all spoke in tongues before being fully accepted into the church, or was the gift of the Holy Spirit given each one in God's own good time and pleasure. The Holy Spirit is not just one thing (tongues) He is limitless.

There is more than receiving the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues, and now I'm saved, and as long as I outreach a bit I'm right. I look at it as how much the Holy Spirit is allowed to take control and lead us to Jesus and His word - accepting all He has to give (koinonia) sharing - sharing Himself through His Holy Spirit with us. Only then is it possible to love as he does (Agape), to witness effectively, to glorify God, testify of Him, to understand His teaching, to have a good conscience, to show the world right from wrong etc., etc. We have spiritual gifts within the church and we have the potential to bear good fruit.

It is a pity that RF etc need to state that there is proof that God exists, that there can be an experience to show that God is real when giving the invitation for people to be saved. The Holy Spirit with tongues is the proof they refer to.

There are so many testamonies that are:- "I wasn't a believer but I thought, alright God if you're real, prove it. I've got nothing to lose so I'll get baptised and if I get this Holy Spirit I'll believe, and if I don't, I'll just walk away".

It's not alright - it's all wrong. The Holy Spirit is not a proof.

Jesus said he will manifest Himself, and believers will receive the Holy Spirit, to manifest Jesus IN them.

I have become a bit sidetracked, but getting back to John 20:22, I believe the disciples received the Holy Spirit and that Penticost was unique from the promised gift of the Holy Spirit to all people.

God Bless

Episkopeo
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Re:Person of The Holy Spirit (and Trinity?)

Date Posted:31/10/2007 6:41 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : Episkopeo

Reply to : franks ghostHi Frank,Thought you might be too busy reading to answer, so have put together a few thoughts. By the way, the NLT Life Application Study Bible is a good one.John 20:22This was after Jesus' resurrection and I believe the disciples did receive the Holy Spirit and that scripture establishes this fact. There was no symbolism here.PenticostThe BAPTISM in the Holy Spirit at Penticost was a second and distinct work of the Holy Spirit. It was dramatic. The rushing mighty wind, the tongues of fire and the tongues which were understood. This has never been repeated.Acts 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalm Jews, devout men of every nation under heaven.Acts 2:6 The multitude came together and were confounded, because every man heard them speak in his own language..In Peter's sermon which followed h

so you'll receieve power when the Holy Spirit comes. If what you are saying is right then they would already have the power and assurance from there John20 experience.

FG

it is the glory of God to conceal a matter but the honour of kings to search it out.
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Re:Person of The Holy Spirit (and Trinity?)

Date Posted:01/11/2007 5:23 AMCopy HTML

Hi all

I suppose it seems a bit confusing in John 20-22 when Jesus breathed on them and said" Receive the holy spirit"  does that mean that he breathed on each of them individually or collectively or is it just a figure of speach.  Also if they received the Holy Spirit my question is who received at that time.  And what did Jesus mean in Acts chapter 1 4,5 when he told them to wait for the fathers promise.

Is receiving the Holy Spirit and the baptism of the Holy Spirit two different things

Love

Chris

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Re:Person of The Holy Spirit (and Trinity?)

Date Posted:01/11/2007 8:35 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : franks ghost and Chris

There is a lot of debate and differing views about John 20:22. I once asked a Pastor and was told it was a taste of what's to come. Others say it's symbolical.
I look at it as that the disciples received the indwelling of the Holy Ghost and that Penticost was the baptism and powerful outpouring of the Holy Spirit - the beginning of the church.

The Holy Ghost/Spirit was very active in the gospels - Matt 1:18-20 Mary conceived Jesus by the Holy Ghost. Matt 28:19 Disciples told to teach all nations baptising in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Mark 1:10 The Spirit descended on Jesus after baptism.
Luke 1:15 John the Baptist filled with the Holy Ghost even in his mother's womb. Luke 1:41 Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost. Luke 1:67 Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost. There's lots more.

The following are from reviews and commentaries:-
1. In John 20:22 Jesus used not the future but the present tense. "Receive" not "You will receive"
2. In a futile attempt to avoid John 20:22 contradicting Acts 1:1-4 you are actually proposing that Jesus was referring to a later occasion, and
therefore really meant, Receive the Holy Spirit, but not yet, not for another 40 days.
3. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit rerproduces the life of Jesus. The outpouring or baptism represents the ministry of jesus.

Joy and peace
Episkopeo

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Re:Person of The Holy Spirit (and Trinity?)

Date Posted:01/11/2007 9:52 AMCopy HTML

Thank you episkipeo

 

That makes quite good sense

 

Chris

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Re:Person of The Holy Spirit (and Trinity?)

Date Posted:01/11/2007 9:53 AMCopy HTML

Sorry for spelling your name wrong

Episkopeo

Chris

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Re:Person of The Holy Spirit (and Trinity?)

Date Posted:03/11/2007 5:23 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : Episkopeo

Reply to : franks ghost and Chris

There is a lot of debate and differing views about John 20:22. I once asked a Pastor and was told it was a taste of what's to come. Others say it's symbolical.

I once asked pastors many things too, I don't see any authority here.

I look at it as that the disciples received the indwelling of the Holy Ghost and that Penticost was the baptism and powerful outpouring of the Holy Spirit - the beginning of the church.

What 2 fillings? and or are you sayiong there were more than the 12 on this occassion?

The Holy Ghost/Spirit was very active in the gospels - Matt 1:18-20 Mary conceived Jesus by the Holy Ghost. Matt 28:19 Disciples told to teach all nations baptising in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Mark 1:10 The Spirit descended on Jesus after baptism.
Luke 1:15 John the Baptist filled with the Holy Ghost even in his mother's womb. Luke 1:41 Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost. Luke 1:67 Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost. There's lots more.

Actually the way I read it the Spirit was active in plenty of places in the Old Testament as well. One example is Numbers 11: 17, v's 24-27. Did this outpouring bring Salvation and an entrance into the Kingdom?


The following are from reviews and commentaries:-
1. In John 20:22 Jesus used not the future but the present tense. "Receive" not "You will receive"
2. In a futile attempt to avoid John 20:22 contradicting Acts 1:1-4 you are actually proposing that Jesus was referring to a later occasion, and
therefore really meant, Receive the Holy Spirit, but not yet, not for another 40 days.
3. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit rerproduces the life of Jesus. The outpouring or baptism represents the ministry of jesus.

The above comments were made by Who?

Joy and peace
Episkopeo

it is the glory of God to conceal a matter but the honour of kings to search it out.
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Re:Person of The Holy Spirit (and Trinity?)

Date Posted:03/11/2007 1:15 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : franks ghost
Hi Frank.

God is able to impart His Holy Spirit wherever, whenever and to whomever He wants.
Genesis 1:2 And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Yes, there are numerous references to the activity of God's Spirit in the Old Testament. In the New Testament there are also infillings of the Holy Spirit according to God's will.
I once asked pastors many things too. I don't see any authority here.)
Yes, I agree, They like everyone else need to have a relationship with Jesus Christ.

As for the reviews and commentaries. They are just notes I have taken and used as examples of differing views on the subject. Available to all who search them out, but not gospel.

Personally I can't afford to say that John 20:22 conflicts with Acts 1:4-5 because the risen Jesus is free to indwell the Holy Spirit into His disciples just as the Spirit filled Mary, Elizabeth, Zacharias and also those in the Old Testament. Jesus said the disciples would be BAPTISED with the Holy Spirit and they shall receive power and shall be witnesses of Him at Penticost. The beginning of the church.

Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God, exalted and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost he has shed forth
this which ye see and hear.
The outpouring of the Holy Spirit to proclaim to all people salvation by Jesus Christ.

In Revival the emphasis is placed on "receive" the Holy Spirit (with the evidence (proof) of speaking in tongues) and not enough emphasis on "believe" in Jesus Christ. Saved by grace through faith and belief in Jesus Christ. God will give the gift of the Holy Spirit and all His fulness. It's a promise. We don't have to strive.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not by yourselves it is the gift of God.

Colossians 2:9 For in Him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Collosians 2:10 And Ye are complete in Him which is the head of all principality and power.

Acts 16:30 .....Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shall be saved, and thy house.

I have been associated with Revival churches almost as long as you Frank, and still am by connections. I sat on the seats quite satisfied that I was right with God because I had gone by the "prescribed pattern". Life was full of fellowshipping and outreaching to tell people that they can have proof also. Slowly over a long period I realised that there's more - there's a relationship with my saviour Jesus Christ and by His word and His revelation He communicates.
Jeremiah 29:13 And ye shall seek Me , and find Me, when ye shall search for Me with all your heart.

Joy and peace

Episkopeo
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Re:Person of The Holy Spirit (and Trinity?)

Date Posted:03/11/2007 1:47 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : franks ghost

Reply to : EpiskopeoReply to : franks ghost and ChrisThere is a lot of debate and differing views about John 20:22. I once asked a Pastor and was told it was a taste of what's to come. Others say it's symbolical.I once asked pastors many things too, I don't see any authority here.I look at it as that the disciples received the indwelling of the Holy Ghost and that Penticost was the baptism and powerful outpouring of the Holy Spirit - the beginning of the church.What 2 fillings? and or are you sayiong there were more than the 12 on this occassion?The Holy Ghost/Spirit was very active in the gospels - Matt 1:18-20 Mary conceived Jesus by the Holy Ghost. Matt 28:19 Disciples told to teach all nations baptising in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.Mark 1:1

If we can put out of our minds, the Revivalist view of receiving the Holy Spirit with the "tongues" connection, and see that it is after repentance and believing is when we receive the Spirit, then it makes the scripture more meaningful. We are told that the Gospels where written after the events in Acts, so John would have already witnessed Pentecost etc., and would have known that Jesus had already put the Holy Spirit within them at that time of writing.  When we read such as John 20: 19-31 in it's context, it's message is about having peace,(unity, concord)  belief, being filled with the Spirit, being sent out and proclaiming that sins have been forgiven, verse 23(i.e. forgiven because of His grace) and eternal life.v31. 

Pentecost also, if we can see that the events of that time was the (a sign) fulfillment of the old covenant and not the mechanics of receiving the Holy Spirit, then 'Baptism in the Spirit' is a continual pouring forth, or putting into, all that believe.

brolga

  

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Re:Person of The Holy Spirit (and Trinity?)

Date Posted:04/11/2007 6:53 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : All

All,

I'll get around to posting my 'two-cents-worth' when I have a little more time than I do right at this moment

Blessings,

Ian
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Re:Person of The Holy Spirit (and Trinity?)

Date Posted:05/11/2007 8:25 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : Episkopeo

Good morning, 'Ms Bish'.

There is a lot of debate and differing views about John 20:22. I once asked a Pastor and was told it was a taste of what's to come. Others say it's symbolical.

For starters, there's not much in the way of debate on the issue at all. At least, there isn't among those who have 'half a clue' (pssst: Revivalist pastors being numbered among those who have less that 'half a clue')

I look at it as that the disciples received the indwelling of the Holy Ghost and that Penticost was the baptism and powerful outpouring of the Holy Spirit - the beginning of the church.

Pretty much. At John 20:22 Jesus, as God the Son, was making a very clear reference to the act of God (the Father) giving life to man in Genesis 2:7 (in point of fact, the words that Jesus used in Greek are identical to the wording of the Septuagint Greek OT used and quoted by the first Christians). But this time around it's Jesus who is breathing the Spirit of eternal life into the nostrils of his disciples! Incidentally, the first Christians also understood Jesus to be alluding to Ezekiel 37:1-14 (note, especially verse 9 and then verse 14). John's gospel is quite well structured, so proper to understanding the 'thrust-and-parry' of John 20:22, is John 7:38-39

As for Pentecost, well, what it recounted was a little different

The following are from reviews and commentaries:-
1. In John 20:22 Jesus used not the future but the present tense. "Receive" not "You will receive"


Not quite The verb that Jesus used was 'labete' (which is the inflected form of 'lambano'); an imperative (in other words, a command), and which appears in the aorist aspect, and not the 'present'. Note well: it's the grammatical 'force' of the aorist in this instance which is most telling, and not issues relating to 'tense' (which are bye-and-large irrelevant). In John 20:22, the aorist verb 'labete' is punctilliar: Jesus indicated that his disciples (being in this case more than simply the eleven surviving apostles), received the Holy Spirit then and there!

2. In a futile attempt to avoid John 20:22 contradicting Acts 1:1-4 you are actually proposing that Jesus was referring to a later occasion, and therefore really meant, Receive the Holy Spirit, but not yet, not for another 40 days.

Which is a nonsense insofar as the Greek stands.

3. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit rerproduces the life of Jesus. The outpouring or baptism represents the ministry of jesus.

The indwelling Spirit does, indeed, reproduce the 'Life' of Jesus within his followers. The baptism of the Spirit at Acts 2 was far more specific, and directed at the apostles alone.

Blessings,

Ian
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Re:Person of The Holy Spirit (and Trinity?)

Date Posted:06/11/2007 8:07 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : Didaktikon

Good morning Ian,

Thank you for your explanation. The references to the Old Testament scriptures in Genesis 2:7 and Ezekial 37:9 and 14
give full meaning to Jesus, this time around, breathing the Spirit of eternal life into the the disciples after his resurrection.

John 20:22, the three verses preceding, and the one following are powerful scriptures. Jesus calmed the fearful disciples, revealed the important event of his resurrection and gave them his ministry which he received from the Father - verse 21......"as my Father hath sent me, so I send you".
It was appropriate, then, to command that they receive the Holy Spirit, and vital, considering the authority given in the verse following.

God Bless

Episkopeo

Pax tecum

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Re:Person of The Holy Spirit (and Trinity?)

Date Posted:06/11/2007 8:25 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : Episkopeo

'Ms Bish',

You're welcome. Delving deeply into Scripture (as opposed to simply a 'surface' reading of the same) is always a fruitful exercise.

Blessings,

Ian
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Re:Person of The Holy Spirit (and Trinity?)

Date Posted:07/11/2007 7:01 AMCopy HTML

(Pentecost also, if we can see that the events of that time was the (a sign) fulfillment of the old covenant and not the mechanics of receiving the Holy Spirit, then 'Baptism in the Spirit' is a continual pouring forth, or putting into, all that believe.)  'NOT PECULIAR TO PENTECOST'

As there has been no comment on this I will assume that it is correct. Not all that is instructed is only for the Apostles at that time.  I know it is "proof-texting" but is all I can use at the moment; 

When John was proclaiming that Jesus was going to 'Baptize in the Holy Spirit', we see in Matt 3:5, Mark 5:5, Luke 3:15 and John 1:33, that he was addressing all the people.  

brolga

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Re:Person of The Holy Spirit (and Trinity?)

Date Posted:07/11/2007 8:27 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : brolga

Good morning, Brolga.

I know it is "proof-texting" but is all I can use at the moment;When John was proclaiming that Jesus was going to 'Baptize in the Holy Spirit',we see in Matt 3:5, Mark 5:5, Luke 3:15 and John 1:33, that he was addressing all the people.

Indeed he was, which is why Paul specifically states in 1 Corinthians 12:13 that, "For in one Spirit we were all baptised into one body...", and then not so very long afterwards, he further states that not all speak in tongues (13:30). In short, the baptism of the Spirit by Christ occurs at conversion. It is not, as the 'classical' Pentecostal position maintains, a 'second-blessing' that happens subsequent to conversion. But what occurred at Acts 2 was a very specific 'whelming' of the Holy Spirit, one that was promised to and fulfilled in, the apostles alone.

Capiche?

Ian
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Re:Person of The Holy Spirit (and Trinity?)

Date Posted:07/11/2007 10:57 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : Didaktikon

Reply to : brolgaGood morning, Brolga.I know it is "proof-texting" but is all I can use at the moment;When John was proclaiming that Jesus was going to 'Baptize in the Holy Spirit',we see in Matt 3:5, Mark 5:5, Luke 3:15 and John 1:33, that he was addressing all the people.Indeed he was, which is why Paul specifically states in 1 Corinthians 12:13 that,"For in one Spirit we were all baptised into one body...", and then not so very long afterwards, he further states that not all speak in tongues (13:30). In short, the baptism of the Spirit by Christ occurs atconversion. It isnot, as the 'classical' Pentecostal position maintains, a 'second-blessing' that happenssubsequentto conversion. But what occurred at Acts 2 was a very specific 'whelming' of the Holy Spirit, one that was promised to and fulfilled in, the apostles a

Thankyou Ian,

Yes, I was purposely not bringing the tongues connection into it, as we know the Revs so do, this is why it can appear confusing.

FWW. I haven't been able to contact Ward, re course yet, I believe he is overseas at moment, but I have already lodged an application for 2008 semester. Also started doing B' of B' Gr', Bill Mounce. The old brain starting to get exercise now

brolga

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Re:Person of The Holy Spirit (and Trinity?)

Date Posted:07/11/2007 11:18 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : brolga

Ralph,

'Yep', Ward is currently in the US. He was invited to present a scholarly paper to the Evangelical Theological Society's annual conference.

Blessings,

Ian

P.S. With respect to getting a 'foot up' with Greek, you need to understand that Tyndale doesn't use Mounce's text, but Ward's, published through SPCK.
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Re:Person of The Holy Spirit (and Trinity?)

Date Posted:08/11/2007 8:12 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : brolga

Ralph,

You can purchase it through Koorong, B.W. Powers, "Learn To Read the Greek New Testament" (Grammar and Workbook) for $59.95. I've personally taught Greek to university and college students using Mounce, Wenham, Dobson and Powers. Each text has its strengths and weaknesses (from my perspective), but I've found Ward's to be the best, and simplest, overall.

Blessings,

Ian
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Re:Person of The Holy Spirit (and Trinity?)

Date Posted:08/11/2007 8:06 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : brolga


Pentecost also, if we can see that the events of that time was the (a sign)fulfillmentof the old covenant and not the mechanics of receiving the Holy Spirit,then'Baptism in the Spirit' is a continual pouring forth, or putting into, all that believe.)

Hi Brolga,

Yes I do think that there is a continual spiritual pouring forth, or putting into otherwise I think we would stagnate.

Acts 6:3 Wherefore, brethren, Look ye out among you seven men of honest report, FULL of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, who we may appoint over this business.
Again in verse 5 - Stephen, a man FULL of faith and the Holy Ghost.

Then referring to Barnabas:-
Acts 11:24 For he was a good man and FULL of the Holy Ghost and faith.................much people were added unto the Lord.

Perhaps this indicates that not all believers who were initially FILLED with the Holy Spirit continued to be FULL of the Holy Spirit, putting on the mind of Christ and bearing all the fruits.

Episkopeo
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Re:Person of The Holy Spirit (and Trinity?)

Date Posted:09/11/2007 2:03 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : Episkopeo

Reply to : brolgaBRPentecost also, if we can see that the events of that time was the (a sign)fulfillmentof the old covenant and not the mechanics of receiving the Holy Spirit,then'Baptism in the Spirit' is a continual pouring forth, or putting into, all that believe.)Hi Brolga,Yes I do think that there is a continual spiritual pouring forth, or putting into otherwise I think we would stagnate.Acts 6:3 Wherefore, brethren, Look ye out among you seven men of honest report, FULL of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, who we may appoint over this business.Again in verse 5 - Stephen, a man FULL of faith and the Holy Ghost.Then referring to Barnabas:-Acts 11:24 For he was a good man and FULL of the Holy Ghost and faith................Perhaps this indicates that not all believers who were initially FILLED with the Holy Spirit continued to be FULL of the Holy Spirit, putting on the mind of Christ and bearing all the fruits.

Good stuff Epi,

Very much the same today, we must keep our lamps full of that oil, hey!

many blessings, brolga

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