Forum for ex-members of Revival Churches
Revival_Centres_Discussion_Forums > Bible, Beliefs, Scriptures and 'The Word' > The Christian room - For Christians about Christianity Go to subcategory:
Author Content
Unkoolman
  • Rank:
  • Score:0
  • Posts:0
  • From:Unknown
  • Register:11/02/2006 8:36 PM

Date Posted:25/08/2006 8:44 PMCopy HTML

As long as the following rules are kept then I am sure we'll all survive long and propsperous times on this forum.  A lot of us have been guilty of breaking these from time to time.  Let's try not to do that again shall we?

Here are the rules for this forum:

 

1.    Anyone one can read and post, but please adhere to the following rules. For the time being, posts will be delayed until approved, due to serial rule breakers.

 

2.    Approval of posts is not currently required, but the moderator reserves the right to move, censor, delete and edit posts (with written notices).

 

3.    Keep all threads in the relevant rooms or they will be moved.

 

4.    Don't make any poster's identity known including your own for any reason or speculate publicly (Divulge your identity at your own risk).

 

5.    No evangelism or proselytizing (preaching).

 

6.    Absolutely no names or identifying information when revealing personal information about individuals.

 

7.    No personal attacks against other posters. Keep it civil.

 

8.    If you ignore the warnings I give as moderator then you will be banned.

 

9.    Christians please note that non-Christians frequent the board and are just as welcome here as you...and vice versa.  This is an ex-Revivalist board and not a 'Christian' or 'ex-Christian' board.  Respect where others are at.

 

10.  Use the STUFF category for ramblings, personal differences and carry on.  Keep it out of the main rooms.

 

11.  Do not use multiple aliases.  Choose one and stick with it.  Some have used multiple aliases to reply to their own posts and support their point of view, etc.

 

12.  Anyone intentionally posting false or misleading material or masquerading as other posters will be banned.

Unkoolmail

"As man is, so is his God; And thus is God, oft strangely odd" - Goethe

"Emancipate yourself from mental slavery. None but ourselves can free our minds." - Bob Marley
MothandRust Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #1
  • Rank:Forum Oracle
  • Score:41380
  • Posts:1877
  • From:Australia
  • Register:27/02/2004 11:21 PM

Re:Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Date Posted:14/08/2006 9:25 AMCopy HTML

To hell and back

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14337492/

Carlton Pearson says something amazing happened: God gave him an inspiring message. He wanted to share it with everyone. And as Keith Morrison tells us, that's when the trouble started.

Pearson: I was angry that people go to hell.

In fact, for Carlton, it was personal. His own grandparents had been preachers once. But then they "backslid," as Carlton puts it...  had committed adultery, had learned to love booze and must therefore be in hell. So he was mad at them. But also...

Pearson: I was resentful of God. See, if you fear God the way we're taught to fear Him, you'll serve Him, you'll believe in Him, you'll worship Him?but you probably will never really love Him.

And then one day, it happened. Bishop Carlton Pearson was sitting in the living room of his big house in Tulsa having his dinner in front of the TV set.

There was a news story on about the refugee crisis in Rwanda.

Pearson: And you saw these African people?mostly women and children walking slowly back trying to come home. There was no light or life in their eyes. It was a horrible thing for me to see. Swollen bellies and skeletal bodies, emaciated... and then the babies looking at the mom and the mama looking out in space. It was sad. And I'm sitting there with my little fat-cheeked baby and my plateful of food, watching my big screen TV.  A man of God, a preacher of the Gospel, and Evangelist, and I'm looking at those people assuming that they're probably Muslim and going to Hell. "'Cause God wouldn't do that to Christians," I'm thinking...

Morrison: They deserve hell.

Pearson: They deserved hell.

And then, right at that moment, Carlton had his revelation.

Pearson: And I said, "God I don't know how you're gonna call yourself a loving God and allow those people to suffer so much and then just suck them into hell."  And I believe it was the Spirit of God in me saying, "Is that what you think we're doing?"

Morrison: You heard this voice.

Pearson: Yes, sir. And I said, "That's what I've been taught"

He talked back, he says, at that voice in his head.

Pearson: "God, I can't I can't save the whole world." And that's when I heard that voice say, "Precisely.  That's what we did. And if you'd tell them that they are redeemed, you wouldn't create those kinds of problems.  Can't you see they're already in Hell?"

Clear as a bell, says Carlton, he heard god telling him to preach this new message that hell is a place in life, and that after death. Everybody is redeemed. Everybody.

Pearson: I immediately started thinking about my grandparents. "Well, maybe they're not in Hell. Maybe if they're already saved, if the cross and Christ and all that stuff really happened and is really spiritual?which I believe it is?then?if He came to save the world, then the world is saved unless he's a failure."

This was powerful stuff.  Though dangerous too. 

Morrison: You mean Hitler's in heaven?

Pearson: You think Hitler's more powerful than the blood of Jesus? I mean, I got a hell to put a lot of people in.  I'd sent Hitler and every slave trader straight to hell and a few deacons in my church if you wanna know the truth?I'd send people to hell, but I'm not God. He's the atoning sacrifice for our sins and not ours only, but the sins of the whole world.

Then Carlton started preaching what he'd come to call "The Gospel of Inclusion." He told his big congregation that Hell doesn't exist in the way the church has taught and that all people will eventually be reunited with god. 

Pearson: For the first time in all my  life as a Christian, I really not only love God, I started liking God...

Christians of all stripes have come up with widely varied definitions of hell.

So how would Carlton's new idea go down?  Not very well at all.

Pearson: I didn't think it would be anything like it was.

[LINK SiteName=Mothrust: Movies and Modern Myth Target=_blank]http://aintchristian.blogspot.com.au/[/LINK] Be nice, for everyone that you meet is fighting a harder battle - Anita Roddick
Anonymous Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #2
  • Rank:
  • Score:0
  • Posts:0
  • From:Unknown
  • Register:06/04/2001 10:54 PM

Re:Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Date Posted:31/08/2006 11:27 AMCopy HTML

$%*'`[Ian Thomason]%*'`@Reply to : MothandRust

Howdy didaktikos. Well, ya certainly won't get labelled a 'fruitless debator' as some do at the Brisbane forum... and you CAN link to outside websites without getting bumped off. So, we're not all bad here. PLUS ya don't get too many people complaining about the length of posts... well apart from Glad...

Hello, 'wonbyone'. True. I guess my only negative experience of this forum has been that I was banned outright for the past few years

Hmm, I'm probably one of the other sharks... notice us circling around - lol. Me? I'm a harmless puppy if ya don't try to promote salvation as only evidenced by tongues... or salvation as a means of avoiding eternal lava baths and pitchforks up the backside...

Yes, I've noted your 'universalist' bent. So, if I was to suggest that the Bible presents 'hell' as a reality, then you'd cease to be 'harmless' a puppy towards me? woof!

...actually, it sounds kinda relaxing, as long as we get bodies that can handle the heat, and I'm sure we would, seeing as they'd be designed to handle an eternity of fiery pain and torture... they'd be very hardy hydes but probably built with extra nerve endings... and no genitals lest we find a moment to pleasure ourselves between flames. Perhaps we'd be designed as fleshy blobs because we'd have no need for limbs etc... Of course teeth would be supplied for gnashing and fingernails to put bamboo under.

Okay. Is any of the above opinion based on what Scripture presents, or have you come to your conclusions via other means?

Aww crap, see there I go on one of my hell rambles again... it's too easy a target. That, and I like the sound of my own font..

Sure. I've read some of your many ramblings on 'hell', and eternal 'torture' and the like; and I reckon you've convinced yourself that the topic is an easy target because you propped the 'straw' against the fence yourself. But that's just my view

and we're all in this together - Ben Lee

I think that's one hypothesis that needs testing.

Ciao,

Ian
MothandRust Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #3
  • Rank:Forum Oracle
  • Score:41380
  • Posts:1877
  • From:Australia
  • Register:27/02/2004 11:21 PM

Re:Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Date Posted:31/08/2006 12:44 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : Ian Thomason [Anonymous]

Reply to : MothandRustHowdy didaktikos. Well, ya certainly won't get labelled a 'fruitless debator' as some do at the Brisbane forum... and you CAN link to outside websites without getting bumped off. So, we're not all bad here. PLUS ya don't get too many people complaining about the length of posts... well apart from Glad...Hello, 'wonbyone'. True. I guess my only negative experience ofthisforum has been that I was bannedoutrightfor the past few yearsHmm, I'm probably one of the other sharks... notice us circling around - lol. Me? I'm a harmless puppy if ya don't try to promote salvation as only evidenced by tongues... or salvation as a means of avoiding eternal lava baths and pitchforks up the backside...

Yeah, I just kinda like playing with the idea of hell. Opens lots of interesing ideas up about the nature of the universe. In the Revivals we had a fairly unanymous approach to hell being the 'second death' where the spirit was extinguished after the body got its turn. I'd be surprised if you started defending the literalist view of hell... I think many enjoy the idea of the antagonists going on to neverending torture because it's a satisfying feeling knowing that all who didn't come to see things your way would get it in the end. That's after karma gets them here first, if it does... 

If you wanna see me 'woof' about it you can feel free to poke at me. I've just about let it all out though (all the hypothetical logic arguement/ramblings). I also doubt heaven has literal golden streets and etc. I think there's a spiritual symbolism used when the next lives are imagined in scripture.

[LINK SiteName=Mothrust: Movies and Modern Myth Target=_blank]http://aintchristian.blogspot.com.au/[/LINK] Be nice, for everyone that you meet is fighting a harder battle - Anita Roddick
Anonymous Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #4
  • Rank:
  • Score:0
  • Posts:0
  • From:Unknown
  • Register:06/04/2001 10:54 PM

Re:Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Date Posted:31/08/2006 1:46 PMCopy HTML

$%*'`[Ian Thomason]%*'`@Reply to : MothandRust

Yeah, I just kinda like playing with the idea of hell. Opens lots of interesing ideas up about the nature of the universe. In the Revivals we had a fairly unanymous approach to hell being the 'second death' where the spirit was extinguished after the body got its turn.

Are you sure you're just (disinterestedly) playing with the concept, or do you have something of a vested interest in the outcome? FWIW I don't believe the Revivalist approach to the topic (i.e. 'annihilationism') adequately fits the biblical data (funny that).

I'd be surprised if you started defending the literalist view of hell...

Okay, but why? In any case, thus far I've not seen a single post on the subject which has even begun to tease out and analyse what the biblical material presentson the matter. What I have seen; however, is a few people providing opinions that seem to draw more from Dante's 'Inferno' than from Jesus' teaching. If one's intent is on 'pooh-pooing' sheol/tartarus/hades (call it what you will), by critiquing the same from a Judeo-Christian theological perspective, then it might be best to engage with the relevant primary source material first rather than as (1) an afterthought, or (2) in a proof-texting (a la 'Revivalist') fashion. Whilst everyone is entitled to voicing an opinion, not all opinions are necessarily informed ones, and neither are all 'created' equal

I think many enjoy the idea of the antagonists going on to neverending torture because it's a satisfying feeling knowing that all who didn't come to see things your way would get it in the end. That's after karma gets them here first, if it does...

You keep using the word 'torture' in reference to 'hell'. Why?

If you wanna see me 'woof' about it you can feel free to poke at me. I've just about let it all out though (all the hypothetical logic arguement/ramblings). I also doubt heaven has literal golden streets and etc. I think there's a spiritual symbolism used when the next lives are imagined in scripture.

Now if I was to say, 'Sit! Stay!' would you comply? But seriously, it's one thing to accept that symbolism is used within Scripture to describe eternity, but altogether another to dismiss outight/offhand what is a very clear biblical teaching. I'd also go a little further to question that any appeal to 'logic' (so-called) would hold much weight with respect to this discussion. My own experience has been that the most a majority of people understand about 'logic' is that the fact that the word exists; but more to the point in this discussion is the possibility that (from my world-view at least) mankind's ability to reason flawlessly and completely is grossly over-rated. especially when it comes to issues of ontology

Ian
MothandRust Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #5
  • Rank:Forum Oracle
  • Score:41380
  • Posts:1877
  • From:Australia
  • Register:27/02/2004 11:21 PM

Re:Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Date Posted:31/08/2006 3:27 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : Ian Thomason [Anonymous]

Are you sure you're just (disinterestedly) playing with the concept, or do you have something of a vested interest in the outcome? FWIW I don't believe the Revivalist approach to the topic (i.e. 'annihilationism') adequately fits the biblical data (funny that).

I'm not sure I have a vested interest other than laughing at the popular concept of hell. Perhaps if it affected my monetary income I might get a little more excited about convincing people to turn off the idea and join in on mine. Now stop teasing me and let me know what your studies lead you to believe concerning Gehenna and it's finerys.

I'm sure the Revival doctrine doesn't fit the data on many levels seeing It's built on a such a skewed foundation. The annihaltionistic (conditionalism) approach re death and hades doesn't fit in with the Eby Preston stuff I used to play with. Don't ask... I didn't go deep enough into it to provide a basis for much discussion, other than lazy link posting, but it seemed a more reasonable interpretation amongst many... IF I was going to commit to a team.

Okay, but why? In any case, thus far I've not seen a single post on the subject which has even begun to tease out and analyse what the biblical material presentson the matter. What I have seen; however, is a few people providing opinions that seem to draw more from Dante's 'Inferno' than from Jesus' teaching.

I've read a few posts that have focussed on Jesus' teaching. I've chosen to poo poo the popular Dante's influenced Hell because it's the ridiculous one that most do. I'm also unconvinced the bible is completely inspired so it's hard to stay within the rules of continuity... but sigh... now that we're gonna go all serious and stuff I suppose I'll pick a side and see if I can get scriptures to match up with it. It'll be from a layman approach you understand (seeing I was a Revivian for 17 years I don't actually know too much about the bible)

You keep using the word 'torture' in reference to 'hell'. Why?

Isn't the keystone to this topic in the interpretation of Lazarus' situation? The ongoing debate as to it being literal or parable? And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. Then he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame (Lk.16:23, 24, NKJV).

[LINK SiteName=Mothrust: Movies and Modern Myth Target=_blank]http://aintchristian.blogspot.com.au/[/LINK] Be nice, for everyone that you meet is fighting a harder battle - Anita Roddick
Anonymous Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #6
  • Rank:
  • Score:0
  • Posts:0
  • From:Unknown
  • Register:06/04/2001 10:54 PM

Re:Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Date Posted:31/08/2006 11:11 PMCopy HTML

$%*'`[Fantastic Fables]%*'`@

Ahhh, hell. What a load of superstitious nonsense. If you want the REAL story of the fate of the universe, read on....

In a couple billion years our beloved sun will have burned up a considerable portion of its hydrogen fuel and will swell to become a red giant. The reason it will swell is its reduced mass will no longer be able to contain the outward pressure of its nuclear core. Our sun, like every star, has a finite amount of fuel and its fate is predictable. By this time all life on earth will be extinct, the oceans will have boiled away, and the surface temperature will be something like an oven. Not a happy place, but no one will be around to care. As the android said in BladeRunner, "All these moments will be lost in time, like tears in the rain. Time to die."

We are not the centre of the universe, all religions are a crock.

Anonymous Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #7
  • Rank:
  • Score:0
  • Posts:0
  • From:Unknown
  • Register:06/04/2001 10:54 PM

Re:Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Date Posted:01/09/2006 4:23 AMCopy HTML

Listen HERE.

Everyone is allowed to have an oppinion,   I do not mean to cause an upheaval here. Some people need to know when they " whoffle" on, particulary this M.R. guy.He "whoffles" EVERYWHERE.

That's why he needs to get a healthier life.

Addiction might be his problem.

And I have to agree with the next post. What the hell, the Universe will eventually come to an abrupt holt anyway.

So M.R. don't get your knickers in a knot mate .YOUR OPPINIONS RUN WILD ALL THE TIME.

And just letting you know ..M.R.. HOW some of us feel with you being such an oppiniated get.

Also some of you blokes that feed into this place all the time, need to get another interest.

So there you go. Just trying to help,with some of the overload  crap.

Reply to : Anonymous

Dude, like... no one's forcing you to read this. Apparently there are millions of other websites you can go to on the Internet.. Go figure. Porn even!Do you even know what a Troll is?Keep it up, your feedback is important to us.- Moth
MothandRust Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #8
  • Rank:Forum Oracle
  • Score:41380
  • Posts:1877
  • From:Australia
  • Register:27/02/2004 11:21 PM

Re:Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Date Posted:01/09/2006 10:27 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : Anonymous

Listen HERE.Everyone is allowed to have an oppinion, I do not mean to cause an upheaval here.

I'm all ears! You certainly are allowed an opinion, but it didn't sound like that. It just sounded like a shitstir and I'd hardly call it an upheaval. You were expressing your boredom at the topic and disdain for the posters. What did you expect from a doctrinal discussion in an ex-Revival thread? Our thoughts on Australian Idol? For someone who said "I AM CERTAINLY NOT GOING TO WASTE MY TIME HERE AGAIN", you're doing pretty well. Will this be your last word or can we expect more of your opinions? Am I allowed to respond to your opinions or would you be happier not having to read through my whoffle?

Some people need to know when they " whoffle" on, particulary this M.R. guy.He "whoffles" EVERYWHERE.That's why he needs to get a healthier life.Addiction might be his problem.

I appreciate you concern for my well-being. That's sweet of you and yes I've got a very addictive personality... I'm so glad I never took up smoking or cocain.

And I have to agree with the next post. What the hell, the Universe will eventually come to an abrupt holt anyway.

Now see... there's an opinion that's in line with the thread topic. Well done... now we're playing the game properly. Very possible and scientifically probable that the universe will peter out. It seems to have been imploding and exploding infinitely. If I cease to exist when I die of a heart attack at 58 from my chocolate and KFC addiction I certainly won't care if there's nothing else to come. I've had kids and seen all Star Wars movies made now, so I'm ready for it.

So M.R. don't get your knickers in a knot mate .YOUR OPPINIONS RUN WILD ALL THE TIME.And just letting you know ..M.R.. HOWsome of us feel with you being such  an oppiniated get.

Again, thanks for you concern, you seem like a caring sort of guy. Call me moth, and I'm sure you mean 'git'. Are some of you gathering and talking about me? Any attention is good for us 'seekers'. I have thought often about not scattering my opinions all over the shop but, meh... it's a forum and if members really really hate what I have to say Aimoo have put in a function where all my posts can be blocked. If you're not a member and my posts annoy you then it's probably best you don't frustrate yourself further.. skip over them or do a google for other forums that don't have me in them.. there are a few.

Also some of you blokes that feed into this place all the time, need to get another interest.So there you go. Just trying to help,with some of the overload  crap.

I think there's only about 4 or 5 regulars here who post often and you're right, if this was their only interest they should go and find others. I have one or two others myself: I collect spores, molds and fungi.

[LINK SiteName=Mothrust: Movies and Modern Myth Target=_blank]http://aintchristian.blogspot.com.au/[/LINK] Be nice, for everyone that you meet is fighting a harder battle - Anita Roddick
mf doom Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #9
  • Rank:Poster Venti I
  • Score:6110
  • Posts:262
  • From:Unknown
  • Register:13/03/2005 7:23 AM

Re:Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Date Posted:03/09/2006 7:59 AMCopy HTML

get-git-gutless wonderz without a handle even!

anyway, about opinions, here's mine for the moment:

1. the bible is NOT the source text

2. HELL is a STICK
where
HEAVEN is the carrot

i.e. mankind's history of subjugation
if it gives you joy, enjoy! life aint pretty without it
Anonymous Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #10
  • Rank:
  • Score:0
  • Posts:0
  • From:Unknown
  • Register:06/04/2001 10:54 PM

Re:Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Date Posted:03/09/2006 8:21 AMCopy HTML

$%*'`[Ian Thomason]%*'`@Reply to : MothandRust

'Moth',

Interesting weekend, judging by some of the posts here.

Anyway...

I've read a few posts that have focussed on Jesus' teaching

I haven't. What I've seen were some contextually wrested and wildly misinterpreted proof-texts (a la Revivalist approach), that were applied in something of a faunfamentalist manner.

You keep using the word 'torture' in reference to 'hell'. Why?

Isn't the keystone to this topic in the interpretation of Lazarus' situation? The ongoing debate as to it being literal or parable? And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. Then he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame (Lk.16:23, 24, NKJV)

For starters the story of Lazarus and Dives is a parable, and that fact alone should've triggered your thinking about how it is interpreted, and more specifically, what the main point is. In any case, Jesus based his parables around 'popular' beliefs and life situations. The question that needs to be answered is this: "what did the average 'Joe' believe about 'hell' in 1st century Palestine?

Ian

mf doom Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #11
  • Rank:Poster Venti I
  • Score:6110
  • Posts:262
  • From:Unknown
  • Register:13/03/2005 7:23 AM

Re:Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Date Posted:03/09/2006 8:48 AMCopy HTML

if hell refers to something negative

or even the worst possible scenario
- some might say cut off from god

then does that not equate it with something negative or at most extreme: the worst thing/s one can imagine?

especially considering the opinion that the bible is metaphoric... that some things are said (in the bible) and we must work out what they REALLY mean according to what knowledge we have access to?

btw, are unbelievers currently cut-off from god?
i'm guessing the answer to that will contain the option of repenting and being reconciled

however, if we are currently cut off from god and are quite comfortable with that AND
hell is the completion of that severance,
maybe hell is better?

maybe satanists have a selling point.

do we agree that hell is supposed to be a BAD thing?
if it gives you joy, enjoy! life aint pretty without it
Ex_Member Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #12
  • Rank:
  • Score:0
  • Posts:0
  • From:Unknown
  • Register:21/09/2018 12:36 AM

Re:Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Date Posted:03/09/2006 9:11 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : Ian Thomason [Anonymous]
For starters the story of Lazarus and Dives is a parable, and that fact alone should've triggered your thinking about how it is interpreted, and more specifically, what the main point is. In any case, Jesus based his parables around 'popular' beliefs and life situations.

Let's ask a few questions then:

1. What other prabales use a 'fantasy' scenario?  In other words, while the stories themselves may not have been 'literally true' is there evidence to support that Jesus used parables with scenarios that were not to be taken as in the 'realm of truth'?  Off the top of my head, there are no others so what pecedent or hermenuetic 'rule'  are you applying here?  

2.  To echo Avenger Dude, which parts of the Bible do we take literally and which parts can we dismiss as too fantastic and so must be intrepreted symbollically?  Where else in  the Bible do we get to dismiss the scenario as being too fantastic? 

3. If Jesus spoke in parables then how do we know his disciples didn't also when they wrote the Scripture?   How about the water into wine?  You know that event was full of symbolism that tapped straight into 1st century ideas about the Messiah right? 

The question that needs to be answered is this: "what did the average 'Joe' believe about 'hell' in 1st century Palestine?

4. Which begs the question, why did Jesus use and reinforce a false 1st century belief in Hell rather than correct it or at least qualify it?

Look, I am not arguing this with you to '1 up' you.  Rather, I have a definite interest in things religious and would like to get to the bottom of this...and the issue of Hell.

MothandRust Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #13
  • Rank:Forum Oracle
  • Score:41380
  • Posts:1877
  • From:Australia
  • Register:27/02/2004 11:21 PM

Re:Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Date Posted:03/09/2006 9:31 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : Ian Thomason [Anonymous]

You keep using the word 'torture' in reference to 'hell'. Why?Isn't the keystone to this topic in the interpretation of Lazarus' situation?.............For starters the story of Lazarus and Dives is a parable, and that fact alone should've triggered your thinking about how it is interpreted, and more specifically, what the main point is

OK, after doing a bit of my own research, It seems that Jesus was using a popular folktale, almost sarcastically, in his parable, but He is painting a picture that describes a torturous reward for some in the next life. Interesting that he should use Abraham's character in his story, as Abe was  one of those literal figures of the Bible... like Samson and Hercules etc.

First century Joes in their Jewish texts at that time believed Abraham was an intercessor for those in the fiery part of Hades and they had a lot to say about the underworld between Hades and paradise (Apoc. Zeph. 11:1~2). . Obviously the hell-fire tormenting/torture scenario is figurative then, because the parable is nightmarishly absurd. He seems to be encouraging and promoting the mythology with this parable.

Cut and paste

IT IS A PARABLE

 Ex. Es. p. 133. 'And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom; the rich man also died, and was buried; and in Hell (Hadees) he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom." Luke 16: 22, 23.

If this is a literal history, as is sometimes claimed, of the after-death experiences of two persons, then the good are carried about in Abraham's bosom; and the wicked are actually roasted in fire, and cry for water to cool their parched tongues. If these are figurative, then Abraham, Lazarus, Dives and the gulf and every part of the account are features of a picture, an allegory, as much as the fire and Abraham's bosom. If it be history, then the good are obliged to hear the appeals of the damned for that help which they cannot bestow! They are so near together as to be able to converse across the gulf, not wide but deep. It was this opinion that caused Jonathan Edwards to teach that the sight of the agonies of the damned enhances the joys of the blest!

1. The story is not fact but fiction: in other words, a parable.

In Judges 9, we read, "The trees went forth, on a time, to anoint a king over them, and they said to the olive tree, reign thou over us." This language is positive, and yet it describes something that never could have occurred. All fables, parables, and other fictitious accounts which are related to illustrate important truths, have this positive form, to give force, point, life-likeness to the lessons that they inculcate.

[LINK SiteName=Mothrust: Movies and Modern Myth Target=_blank]http://aintchristian.blogspot.com.au/[/LINK] Be nice, for everyone that you meet is fighting a harder battle - Anita Roddick
Uncoolman Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #14
  • Rank:Poster Venti III
  • Score:10080
  • Posts:324
  • From:Unknown
  • Register:05/04/2003 2:38 PM

Re:Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Date Posted:03/09/2006 9:41 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : avenger dude

btw, are unbelievers currently cut-off from god?
i'm guessing the answer to that will contain the option of repenting and being reconciled

however, if we are currently cut off from god and are quite comfortable with that AND
hell is the completion of that severance,
maybe hell is better?

Most Xians rarely stop to consider the problem with that idea.  If God is omnipresent (ie he is everywhere) then we can never be truly 'cut off' or he is simply not omnipresent.  More than that, he created Hell and if if he takes his hand off then Hell would simply cease to exist.

If the concept of being 'cut off' is relational rather than spatial then we heathens are NOW in Hell as we are supposedly cut of from God in the here and now.

It makes no sense.

And if Hell does exist (which it doesn't) as the Bible and tradition paints it, then it is only about some kind of sadistic punishment as God is right there watching it happen.

mf doom Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #15
  • Rank:Poster Venti I
  • Score:6110
  • Posts:262
  • From:Unknown
  • Register:13/03/2005 7:23 AM

Re:Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Date Posted:03/09/2006 10:09 AMCopy HTML





average joe





doesn't it lead straight to the question "how relevant is it to the average joe in 2006 australia?"?

i mean i think i agree with your reasoning, if i'm not mistaken, but i can't see how it supports the average christian's argument in general.

it reminds me off why the powers that be used the adam, eve, the garden, the fruit, the rib etc.
coz average joes were dumber then. well, ok, they were not brainwashed by science. they could not comprehend much more than that simplyfied image. but they believed the point. even though it couldn't possibly be proven.

i guess the reason why god was portrayed as an angry and punishing one was because that worked best at the time. fear and might was the best way to control a society of that level of awareness.

then jesus comes along and points out that at the bottom of all 10 of those enforced laws was love: that if you just love your neighbour and god, you wouldn't want to steal or screw your neighbour's wife.

the thing is, we see evolution in the bible and then these modernday revivalists take it back to the days of pentecost. i guess that wasn't a fantasy.

and they just read the bible and speak in tongues. and the ones that climb the hierarchy go around starting churches and spreading the word that everyone has already heard and have already learnt the lesson from and moved on.

and i quote KRS-1: "Stop reading from a dead book for a live God! You know how stupid you look!"
if it gives you joy, enjoy! life aint pretty without it
Anonymous Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #16
  • Rank:
  • Score:0
  • Posts:0
  • From:Unknown
  • Register:06/04/2001 10:54 PM

Re:Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Date Posted:03/09/2006 11:33 AMCopy HTML

$%*'`[Ian Thomason]%*'`@Reply to : Te Luo Yi

1. What other prabales use a 'fantasy' scenario? In other words, while the stories themselves may not have been 'literally true' is there evidence to support that Jesus used parables with scenarios that were not to be taken as in the 'realm of truth'? Off the top of my head, there are no others so what pecedent or hermenuetic 'rule' are you applying here?

Have a look at Matthew 18:21-34, and Luke 19:11-26 for starters (given off the top of my head). I'd also suggest you read "The Parables of Jesus" by Joiakim Jeremias. This will better help you approach the subject from an informed perspective.

2. To echo Avenger Dude, which parts of the Bible do we take literally and which parts can we dismiss as too fantastic and so must be intrepreted symbollically? Where else in the Bible do we get to dismiss the scenario as being too fantastic?

Hermeneutics 101: we should strive to interpret Scripture according the rules of interpretation that applied at the time the various passages were written. Unfortunately, fundamentalists (and those who've retained the fundamentalist mindset) don't make allowance for the differences in things such as genre, or stop to consider the established hermenutical methods used at the time. Consequently, such people 'flatten' the biblical text into just the one dimension, they invariably miss the point of the writing they are assessing, and they start beating to death 'straw-men' of their own making.

3. If Jesus spoke in parables then how do we know his disciples didn't also when they wrote the Scripture? How about the water into wine? You know that event was full of symbolism that tapped straight into 1st century ideas about the Messiah right?

For the simple reason that parables were presented as parables. Further they were a teaching device used exclusively by Jesus at the time (according to what we find in the Talmud, Jewish Rabbis didn't start using parabolic teaching until the end of the 1st century; and they apparently adopted the practice because it was so successfully used by Jesus). Now to consider your proffered example, the record that John left us concerning the wedding at Cana doesn't involve any parabolic devices whatsoever. It's simple and straighforward narrative.

The question that needs to be answered is this: "what did the average 'Joe' believe about 'hell' in 1st century Palestine?

4. Which begs the question, why did Jesus use and reinforce a false 1st century belief in Hell rather than correct it or at least qualify it?

Jesus didn't reinforce the false belief at all, he went straight to the heart of the matter. Jews at the time believed that Abraham could make intercession for those in 'Hell' (then considered an indeterminate state, something like purgatory), thereby changing their final state. The point behind Jesus' parable was that one's eternity was irrevocably fixed at death. Further, remember that Jesus taught in a Palestinian Jewish millieu. You've attempted to judge his ethics based on a very limited, post-Enlightenment western perspective. In other words, you've attempted to judge an apple by comparing it against an orange. That's a little like me judging Newtonian physics to be 'wrong' because we now grapple with Quantam physics.

I hope this has helped.

Ian
Anonymous Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #17
  • Rank:
  • Score:0
  • Posts:0
  • From:Unknown
  • Register:06/04/2001 10:54 PM

Re:Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Date Posted:03/09/2006 11:51 AMCopy HTML

$%*'`[Ian Thomason]%*'`@Reply to : avenger dude

If hell refers to something negative or even the worst possible scenario some might say cut off from god then does that not equate it with something negative or at most extreme: the worst thing/s one can imagine?

Pretty much.

especially considering the opinion that the bible is metaphoric... that some things are said (in the bible) and we must work out what they REALLY mean according to what knowledge we have access to?

Nope, Scripture contains a range of literary devices, including metaphor. What we need to do is place ourselves in the shoes of the people who were being addressed at the time, in an attempt to work out what would've been the impact of the words for them, then.

btw, are unbelievers currently cut-off from god? i'm guessing the answer to that will contain the option of repenting and being reconciled

Nope. The point at which an unbeliever (effectively) becomes 'cut-off' from God is the point of his/her death (pending what Scripture refers to as 'the judgement').

however, if we are currently cut off from god and are quite comfortable with that AND hell is the completion of that severance, maybe hell is better?

Ask yourself whether what you see around you is as good as it gets. Further, being well off and comfortable now doesn't mean that you'll be so tomorrow. Life tends to be full of all sorts of surprises, doesn't it?

maybe satanists have a selling point.

Maybe they do for some people.

do we agree that hell is supposed to be a BAD thing?

I think it's fair to suggest that 'hell' is so bad that it's completely beyond comprehension. Perhaps it's for this very reason that there is the imagery we find in the parable of Lazarus and Dives?

Ian
Ex_Member Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #18
  • Rank:
  • Score:0
  • Posts:0
  • From:Unknown
  • Register:21/09/2018 12:36 AM

Re:Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Date Posted:03/09/2006 1:33 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : Ian Thomason [Anonymous]

 

Have a look at Matthew 18:21-34, and Luke 19:11-26 for starters (given off the top of my head). I'd also suggest you read "The Parables of Jesus" by Joiakim Jeremias. This will better help you approach the subject from an informed perspective.

Ian, I know what a parable is and how they were used. And I would be happy to read the book if you send it to me in China (English books are hard to get here) and I can return it to you when I am done.  Want my address?

But there is nothing other-worldly, supernatural about any other parables is there?  I wasn't disputing the use of parables.  Methinks you misunderstood my comments earlier.  Let me say it again and attempt to clarify a little.

1. What other parables use a 'fantasy' scenario?  By that I don't mean the events happened or did not happen.  Rather I mean that construct used to surround the story takes place in a place unknown to humanity...i.e. heaven and hell (and perhaps purgatory). So, conceding your straw man point above, that parables are a tool to communicate truth rather than an actual event, are not Jesus' other parables all taking place in the realm of what is at least humanly possible?  Yet in the parable in question we are faced not with kings and kingdoms or wheat and tares...but with Hell and Heaven, Abraham and eternal thirsts, etc.  Off the top of my head, there are no others...by that I mean there are no other parables where we can reject the constructs used (such as place) of the story as being 'untrue' even if the event never happened.  Am I being making sense here?  So again I ask, what precedent or hermeneutic 'rule'  are you applying here to reject the possible doctrinal aspects of the picture Jesus paints of heaven and hell?  

You reject the possibility that Jesus was using actual places in his fictional parable, why not reject Abraham as fictional too then?  Maybe he was also utilising a 1st century belief in a fictional Abraham.

Hermeneutics 101: we should strive to interpret Scripture according the rules of interpretation that applied at the time the various passages were written.

Ok, but aren't we faced with the problem of the Gospels themselves being a new form of literature at the time they were written?  While they certainly drew on other forms of contemporary writing, there were no clear 'rules' at the time as the Gospels (as a literary form) were invented by the gospel writers.   So how does anyone know the 'rules if there were none.  Furthermore you wrote:

Further they were a teaching device used exclusively by Jesus at the time (according to what we find in the Talmud, Jewish Rabbis didn't start using parabolic teaching until the end of the 1st century; and they apparently adopted the practice because it was so successfully used by Jesus).

Ok, so did Jesus know the rules of parable usage then?  After all, there were no contemporaries of his using them, there was, by you own admission, NO SCHOOL OF THOUGHT on the matter.  So how do you know that Jesus employed any rules or if he did, how do you know these rules that Jesus employed? 

Come on Ian, all this hermeneutics stuff might be old but it was all devised LONG AFTER the original Gospel authors were long dead.  There is no "Handbook of the Rules of Biblical Interpretation" circa AD 70. 

Now to consider your proffered example, the record that John left us concerning the wedding at Cana doesn't involve any parabolic devices whatsoever. It's simple and straighforward narrative.

Says you.  How do we know that the Gospel writer wasn't just putting that in for 'effect' in the same way Jesus did with his parable?  Jesus doesn't ALWAY lead in with "This is a parable..." does he?  1st century hearers just knew it was right?  Well how do you know that 1st century writers didn't also expect people to know this was also just a literary device?  After all, the use of wine in Jesus's first public miracle was WAY symbolic of the Messiah to first century hearers and readers right?  You reject the picture Jesus uses of heaven and Hell as being a literary device (but hold on to Abraham as a historical figure BTW).  It is too fantastic to be taken literally you say.  Well, what's to stop me from doing the same regarding the wedding at Cana?  Water into wine...full of symbolism...sounds like a literary device to me.

Jesus didn't reinforce the false belief at all, he went straight to the heart of the matter. Jews at the time believed that Abraham could make intercession for those in 'Hell' (then considered an indeterminate state, something like purgatory), thereby changing their final state. The point behind Jesus' parable was that one's eternity was irrevocably fixed at death.

Yeah, but there was another glaring error in that parable according to you.  That is the picture of Hell he used but apparently didn't share.  Why oh why didn't he correct that too while he was there?  All he had to say was, "...and hell is nothing like that by the way."

Further, remember that Jesus taught in a Palestinian Jewish millieu.

Exactly, and we have adopted that milieu when it comes to Hell...and why...because Jesus used it and didn't correct it.  Come on Jesus, aren't you thinking ahead?

You've attempted to judge his ethics based on a very limited, post-Enlightenment western perspective. In other words, you've attempted to judge an apple by comparing it against an orange. That's a little like me judging Newtonian physics to be 'wrong' because we now grapple with Quantam physics.

See, this is the thing Ian.  The Bible is not a simple book with a simple message.  I spent a collective 4 years studying this book and here you are telling me I have it all wrong.  Maybe you're right.  But where does that leave the average Joe?  He has to take your word for it?  Didn't Jesus have a lot to say about a religious scholarly and ruling class?  Man, even if this book is inspired and divine, it matters not as we have no divine interpreter to sort it all out for us.  We have to rely on other men to translate it, put it into cultural context, blah blah blah.  Can't you see the Emperor  has no clothes?  Who cares if it is divine or inspired if it is untouchable to the masses?  God was not thinking too clearly when he started on this Bible idea.

I think groups like the Revivalists, Mormons, Faith Movement et al, all have a n intuitive point.  If God be God then why can't we just read the Bible?  We have the Holy Spirit right?  He searches the deep things of God, the heart of man, leads us and guides us...  Why couldn't he, in his infinite wisdom and knowledge, interpret it for us, have made the book straight forward, or at least given us another way?  Now I see how this CANNOT be applied to the Bible in reality of course, but they have an intuitive point.  If God is really God then we shouldn't have to rely on a religous intellectual class.  Yet we do it seems.  And that is a BIG flaw in the doctrines concerning inspiration.

I hope this has helped.

Ditto. 

Anonymous Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #19
  • Rank:
  • Score:0
  • Posts:0
  • From:Unknown
  • Register:06/04/2001 10:54 PM

Re:Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Date Posted:03/09/2006 2:37 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : Te Luo Yi

Ian, I know what a parable is and how they were used. And I would be happy to read the book if you send it to me in China (English books are hard to get here) and I can return it to you when I am done. Want my address?

Nope. But given your comments re: the wedding at Cana (and more generally), it seemed clear to me that you didn't have much of an idea about what a parable was, or how they were used during Christ's time.

But there is nothing other-worldly, supernatural about any other parables is there? I wasn't disputing the use of parables. Methinks you misunderstood my comments earlier. Let me say it again and attempt to clarify a little.

Why do you think a parable should or shouldn't use an 'other-worldly' scenario as its launching off point? And why would the principle of analolgy be necessary in any case? You're grasping...

1. What other parables use a 'fantasy' scenario? By that I don't mean the events happened or did not happen. Rather I mean that construct used to surround the story takes place in a place unknown to humanity...i.e. heaven and hell (and perhaps purgatory). So, conceding your straw man point above, that parables are a tool to communicate truth rather than an actual event, are not Jesus' other parables all taking place in the realm of what is at least humanly possible?

Sorry, but you're attempting to create constraints which simply don't exist, and to be honest, aren't even necessary.

So again I ask, what precedent or hermeneutic 'rule' are you applying here to reject the possible doctrinal aspects of the picture Jesus paints of heaven and hell?

Why don't you do a little research into the number of commentators, from the 3rd century until today, who stated Christ was teaching on the doctrinal nature of 'heaven' and 'hell' in that parable.

You reject the possibility that Jesus was using actual places in his fictional parable, why not reject Abraham as fictional too then? Maybe he was also utilising a 1st century belief in a fictional Abraham.

Where did I say I rejected Jesus using actual places in that parable? I've nowhere rejected the reality of 'hell', and neither do I reject the reality of 'heaven'. What I did state was that the Jews of Jesus' day had certain erroneous conceptions concerning those two places. The important issue to Jesus wasn't their beliefs concerning the nature of either state, rather, that the state could be changed post-mortem as a result of external intercession. You're attempting to construct an argument/defence based on nothing more substantial than ether, Troy.

Hermeneutics 101: we should strive to interpret Scripture according the rules of interpretation that applied at the time the various passages were written.

Ok, but aren't we faced with the problem of the Gospels themselves being a new form of literature at the time they were written? While they certainly drew on other forms of contemporary writing, there were no clear 'rules' at the time as the Gospels (as a literary form) were invented by the gospel writers. So how does anyone know the 'rules if there were none.

Wrong. For two reasons. For starters, you're argument is flawed in logic. We haven't been discussing the genre of 'gospel', but the nature of parable. Further, the gospels contain parables, narratives, apophthegms, similies, examples of apocalyptic and examples of prophetic genres. Each is interpreted according to the conventions applicable to the particular genre under review. Second, gospel (as a literary form) did conform to an accepted 'standard', eben the apocryphal ones. (wink)

Further they were a teaching device used exclusively by Jesus at the time (according to what we find in the Talmud, Jewish Rabbis didn't start using parabolic teaching until the end of the 1st century; and they apparently adopted the practice because it was so successfully used by Jesus).

Ok, so did Jesus know the rules of parable usage then? After all, there were no contemporaries of his using them, there was, by you own admission, NO SCHOOL OF THOUGHT on the matter. So how do you know that Jesus employed any rules or if he did, how do you know these rules that Jesus employed?

I thought you said you understood parables, Troy? Jesus didn't invent the genre, we find examples of it in the Old Testament. It was also widely used in a number of Hellenistic forms contemporary to Christ. What Jesus did, and then contrary to the Pharisees of his immediate time, was to press the form to use for his specific purposes.

Come on Ian, all this hermeneutics stuff might be old but it was all devised LONG AFTER the original Gospel authors were long dead. There is no "Handbook of the Rules of Biblical Interpretation" circa AD 70.

You really doneed to study more. We have the Middoth of Hillel, and it is these rules for exegesis that I was alluding to earlier.

Now to consider your proffered example, the record that John left us concerning the wedding at Cana doesn't involve any parabolic devices whatsoever. It's simple and straighforward narrative.

Says you.

Yes, 'says me'. And I think it likely that I'm far more of an authority on these matters than are you (wink)

How do we know that the Gospel writer wasn't just putting that in for 'effect' in the same way Jesus did with his parable? Jesus doesn't ALWAY lead in with "This is a parable..." does he? 1st century hearers just knew it was right? Well how do you know that 1st century writers didn't also expect people to know this was also just a literary device? After all, the use of wine in Jesus's first public miracle was WAY symbolic of the Messiah to first century hearers and readers right? You reject the picture Jesus uses of heaven and Hell as being a literary device (but hold on to Abraham as a historical figure BTW). It is too fantastic to be taken literally you say. Well, what's to stop me from doing the same regarding the wedding at Cana? Water into wine...full of symbolism...sounds like a literary device to me.

You're clutching at air again, Troy.

Jesus didn't reinforce the false belief at all, he went straight to the heart of the matter. Jews at the time believed that Abraham could make intercession for those in 'Hell' (then considered an indeterminate state, something like purgatory), thereby changing their final state. The point behind Jesus' parable was that one's eternity was irrevocably fixed at death.

Yeah, but there was another glaring error in that parable according to you. That is the picture of Hell he used but apparently didn't share. Why oh why didn't he correct that too while he was there? All he had to say was, "...and hell is nothing like that by the way."

Again, I thought you claimed above that you actually understood the parable genre?

Further, remember that Jesus taught in a Palestinian Jewish millieu.

Exactly, and we have adopted that milieu when it comes to Hell...and why...because Jesus used it and didn't correct it. Come on Jesus, aren't you thinking ahead?

What did Jesus teach on the subject of 'hell', Troy? It would probably help your understanding of the subject, to begin your studies with that as its basis.

You've attempted to judge his ethics based on a very limited, post-Enlightenment western perspective. In other words, you've attempted to judge an apple by comparing it against an orange. That's a little like me judging Newtonian physics to be 'wrong' because we now grapple with Quantam physics.

See, this is the thing Ian. The Bible is not a simple book with a simple message. I spent a collective 4 years studying this book and here you are telling me I have it all wrong. Maybe you're right.

I think it likely given the arguments you've tried to marshall.

But where does that leave the average Joe? He has to take your word for it? Didn't Jesus have a lot to say about a religious scholarly and ruling class? Man, even if this book is inspired and divine, it matters not as we have no divine interpreter to sort it all out for us. We have to rely on other men to translate it, put it into cultural context, blah blah blah. Can't you see the Emperor has no clothes? Who cares if it is divine or inspired if it is untouchable to the masses? God was not thinking too clearly when he started on this Bible

More 'straw-man' arguments. First, Jesus actually commended the religious scholarly class for their understanding, from time to time.Second, so what that we need to rely on people to translate the Hebrew and Greek into English? The fact is, God chose to use existing languages that conformed to existing grammatical rules. He didn't drop the Bible from heaven, with a set of 'golden spectacles', and then to just one man whose word we'd have to accept or reject. Third, God put into the Church a group of men and women he chose to label 'teachers'. They have a role in explaining and expounding the meaning of Scripture. But for all this, the average 'Joe' can pick up an English Bible, read it for himself, and go away having a fairly good grasp of the plot. That's been my experience, at any rate.

Ian
Anonymous Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #20
  • Rank:
  • Score:0
  • Posts:0
  • From:Unknown
  • Register:06/04/2001 10:54 PM

Re:Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Date Posted:03/09/2006 2:50 PMCopy HTML

$%*'`[Ian Thomason]%*'`@Reply to : TLY and M&R

Now, both you guys have categorically stated at very places in this forum, that God tortures people in hell for eternity. I'd like to see some biblical evidence that supports so bold a claim.

Cheerio,

Ian
MothandRust Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #21
  • Rank:Forum Oracle
  • Score:41380
  • Posts:1877
  • From:Australia
  • Register:27/02/2004 11:21 PM

Re:Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Date Posted:03/09/2006 3:35 PMCopy HTML

Hiya guys... exaustive stuff. Well done!

Gee, our 'bored' commentator must be flipping his lid right now, IF he's still reading. I think it's great reading! I doubt I can unpack the topic much further and would be hesitant to try, maybe a little later on. Hopefully the little 'digs' don't escalate and detract from a healthy discussion on a topic that really seems to set in the nature of God for many... or interpretation thereof. It'd be nice to chew into this without anyone feeling attacked on a personal level. I know the ego-drive is needed to fuel a proper disection of the topic. Respect...;-)

My fascination for hell stems from a time in my youth when my eldest sister testified to have been taken on a 'trip' in a dream like state to the gates of heaven and of hell. She said she was shown partly built mansions in heaven and writhing bodies surrounded by horrible demons in hell. Of course, I believe she's talking absolute crap... but... it fascinates me that there are christians/people who do believe in such an unbelievably horrible and bewildering afterflife.

I think it's fair to suggest that 'hell' is so bad that it's completely beyond comprehension. Perhaps it's for this very reason that there is the imagery we find in the parable of Lazarus and Dives? (Ian)

Does the punishment fit the crime? Would or could such an ongoing state of torment beyond comprehension fit the crime? The straw-man crime of being born into 'sin' and not acknowledging it in time? Are there any text bite conclusions or statements anyone can make about the subject? My original teaser was that Hell could not possibly be a literal torturous trash bin for those who haven't run with the Christian lifestyle as dictated by one's biblical translation .. that does not dictate a loving God in my opinion, yet Jesus seems to be saying... do it my way or prepare for torment... or dare I say it again... torture, in his parable?

For starters the story of Lazarus and Dives is a parable, and that fact alone should've triggered your thinking about how it is interpreted, and more specifically, what the main point is

So why shouldn't I use the word torture in reference to hell when Jesus was more than happy to? I may have missed something but are you able to share your view of it (heaven and hell) in more laymen's terms? The interpretation of the parable that should have been triggered. I and probably other readers need such things simply said... Or is the big picture just too complex and interwoven to really simplify it in such a way. Don't get me wrong, I love the dance so far... I'm just hoping for some easier chunks to suck on and see.

Thanks guys for engaging my pet subject so enthusiastically thus far...

 

[LINK SiteName=Mothrust: Movies and Modern Myth Target=_blank]http://aintchristian.blogspot.com.au/[/LINK] Be nice, for everyone that you meet is fighting a harder battle - Anita Roddick
Ex_Member Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #22
  • Rank:
  • Score:0
  • Posts:0
  • From:Unknown
  • Register:21/09/2018 12:36 AM

Re:Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Date Posted:03/09/2006 3:39 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : Te Luo Yi

Nope. But given your comments re: the wedding at Cana (and more generally), it seemed clear to me that you didn't have much of an idea about what a parable was, or how they were used during Christ's time.

Again, you misunderstand me.  What I am TRYING to communicate is that the idea of a parable and what YOU claim can and cannot dismiss as fiction is arbitrary.  I used the wedding at Cana, not as an example of a parable, but as an example of being as arbitrary as you.  Perhaps I need to communicate more clearly...or you need to try not to skim my posts. (wink)

Why do you think a parable should or shouldn't use an 'other-worldly' scenario as its launching off point? And why would the principle of analolgy be necessary in any case? You're grasping...

*SIGH*  One more time...  You are the one dismissing parts of the parable and retaining other parts...arbitrary.

Sorry, but you're attempting to create constraints which simply don't exist, and to be honest, aren't even necessary.

Perhaps I am.  But I am trying to understand how and why you feel FREE to reject the picture of Hell and torture (after all THAT was our jumping point in this discussion after all) Jesus used but retain so much else in the parable.

Why don't you do a little research into the number of commentators, from the 3rd century until today, who stated Christ was teaching on the doctrinal nature of 'heaven' and 'hell' in that parable.

And as I said before Ian, these guys wrote LATE didn't they?  In a thousanad years, when Mormons return to their 20th century commentators, perhaps their argment will hold as much weight as yours does now.  Just because someone said it ages ago doesn't make it true or even reliable.

Where did I say I rejected Jesus using actual places in that parable? I've nowhere rejected the reality of 'hell', and neither do I reject the reality of 'heaven'. What I did state was that the Jews of Jesus' day had certain erroneous conceptions concerning those two places. The important issue to Jesus wasn't their beliefs concerning the nature of either state, rather, that the state could be changed post-mortem as a result of external intercession. You're attempting to construct an argument/defence based on nothing more substantial than ether, Troy.

You're right.  I misunderstaood you here.  So what you do reject is the torture in hell and that it is really hot.  You do however retain Abraham, hell as a place and eternal in nature.  So how and why do you accept some tenets and reject others here? 

Wrong. For two reasons. For starters, you're argument is flawed in logic. We haven't been discussing the genre of 'gospel', but the nature of parable.

Wrong.  The gospels CONTAIN parables so I think the Gospels as a literary form is most relevant.

Further, the gospels contain parables, narratives, apophthegms, similies, examples of apocalyptic and examples of prophetic genres. Each is interpreted according to the conventions applicable to the particular genre under review.

No argument there Ian.  After all, there are a lot of schools where the study of these things take place.  You and I went to a few no?  But you have not answered my question Ian.  Who determines these conventions and how are they determined in light of 'a divinely inspired' book?  You are quick to point out that I don't 'understand' as you do, but then don't seek to give reasons for your arguments.  It's not enough to claim superiority and then be done with it.  Be patient with us mere mortals. (wink)

Second, gospel (as a literary form) did conform to an accepted 'standard', eben the apocryphal ones. (wink)

So where oh where are the pre-NT gospels and where is the rule book?  And could not one ask how much of the apocryphal writings can be dismissed as allepgory and metephor and other parts as literal?  Who decides that?  Martin Luther?  Council of Nicea?

I thought you said you understood parables, Troy? Jesus didn't invent the genre, we find examples of it in the Old Testament. It was also widely used in a number of Hellenistic forms contemporary to Christ. What Jesus did, and then contrary to the Pharisees of his immediate time, was to press the form to use for his specific purposes.

Ooooh, now I was VERY cautious not to say Jesus INVENTED the parable.  Read carefully Ian.   What I said was,  Ok, so did Jesus know the rules of parable usage then?  After all, there were no contemporaries of his using them, there was, by you own admission, NO SCHOOL OF THOUGHT on the matter.  So how do you know that Jesus employed any rules or if he did, how do you know these rules that Jesus employed?   Are you saying Jesus went to Rome, Greece (or even India...LOL) to get influenced by other foms not common to his peers?  Or maybe he went to special Hellenistic school for gifted temple runaways? 

You really doneed to study more. We have the Middoth of Hillel, and it is these rules for exegesis that I was alluding to earlier.

Yes, I obviously do.  Can I get this online?  Better yet can you mail me a copy?  Until I get my hands on a copy...I am gonna have to leave that point right there.

Yes, 'says me'. And I think it likely that I'm far more of an authority on these matters than are you (wink)

See, there you go again.  You can't just say, "because I am bigger than you" and then leave it.  You gotta give me something to work with here.  I am putting forward a point that the story of the Wedding at Cana may well be an invented story and yet another literary device that you refuse to acknowledge as it doesn't suit your preconceived notions of the Bible based on the tenets of your faith which you share with the fundamentalists. (wink)

You're clutching at air again, Troy.

I know you are but what am I?  Come on Ian, tell me whay I am wrong.  Don't be so dismissive.

Again, I thought you claimed above that you actually understood the parable genre?

I have already conceded I missed that one.  I should have said, Jesus could have said "...and there is no torture in Hell by the way"

What did Jesus teach on the subject of 'hell', Troy? It would probably help your understanding of the subject, to begin your studies with that as its basis.

According to this parable, it is hot, you get really thirsty and there is torture.

I think it likely given the arguments you've tried to marshall.

Now play nice Ian.

More 'straw-man' arguments. First, Jesus actually commended the religious scholarly class for their understanding, from time to time.

Ian, of course I know of those verses.  I have read the book.  But they don't cancel out the verses where he scolds them and tells them how they study but miss him etc.  If nothing else, you must concede that there is and has been lots of room for an abusive religious ruling class in many different stages of Xian history.  The gospel writers seem to allude to this (at least to that of their own time).

Second, so what that we need to rely on people to translate the Hebrew and Greek into English? The fact is, God chose to use existing languages that conformed to existing grammatical rules.

But it goes beyond that Ian.

He didn't drop the Bible from heaven, with a set of 'golden spectacles', and then to just one man whose word we'd have to accept or reject. Third, God put into the Church a group of men and women he chose to label 'teachers'. They have a role in explaining and expounding the meaning of Scripture. But for all this, the average 'Joe' can pick up an English Bible, read it for himself, and go away having a fairly good grasp of the plot.

...and start lierally thousands of denominations and all the conflicts and turmoil that goes with that.  You know that most xian sects are made up of ppl who believe their intterpretations are the correct ones and have defendable reasons for believing so.

Now I did add this paragraph to my post but it seems I did so after you read my intial post.  Perhaps you would care to comment.  I said,

I think groups like the Revivalists, Mormons, Faith Movement et al, all have an intuitive point.  If God be God then why can't we just read the Bible?  We have the Holy Spirit right?  He searches the deep things of God, the heart of man, leads us and guides us...  Why couldn't he, in his infinite wisdom and knowledge, interpret it for us, have made the book straight forward, or at least given us another way?  Now I see how this CANNOT be applied to the Bible in reality of course, but they have an intuitive point.  If God is really God then we shouldn't have to rely on a religous intellectual class.  Yet we do it seems.  And that is a BIG flaw in the doctrines concerning inspiration.

Anonymous Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #23
  • Rank:
  • Score:0
  • Posts:0
  • From:Unknown
  • Register:06/04/2001 10:54 PM

Re:Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Date Posted:03/09/2006 3:55 PMCopy HTML

$%*'`[Ian Thomason]%*'`@Reply to : MothandRust

Does the punishment fit the crime? Would or could such an ongoing state of torment beyond comprehension fit the crime? The straw-man crime of being born into 'sin' and not acknowledging it in time? Are there any text bite conclusions or statements anyone can make about the subject? My original teaser was that Hell could not possibly be a literal torturous trash bin for those who haven't run with the Christian lifestyle as dictated by one's biblical translation .. that does not dictate a loving God in my opinion, yet Jesus seems to be saying... do it my way or prepare for torment... or dare I say it again... torture, in his parable?

Does the Bible teach of a literal 'hell'? If it does, than your argument is basically moot. All I've seen, so far, is you claiming that God will torture people for eternity. I'd like you to back up this claim with some biblical data that we can analyse.

So why shouldn't I use the word torture in reference to hell when Jesus was more than happy to? I may have missed something but are you able to share your view of it (heaven and hell) in more laymen's terms? The interpretation of the parable that should have been triggered. I and probably other readers need such things simply said... Or is the big picture just too complex and interwoven to really simplify it in such a way. Don't get me wrong, I love the dance so far... I'm just hoping for some easier chunks to suck on and see.

Jesus didn't use the word 'torture'. As it is I'll likely get around to sharing my view on the subject soon enough. But I'd really like to see some solid support for your claims about God torturing people for eternity first.

Ciao,

Ian
MothandRust Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #24
  • Rank:Forum Oracle
  • Score:41380
  • Posts:1877
  • From:Australia
  • Register:27/02/2004 11:21 PM

Re:Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Date Posted:03/09/2006 4:00 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : Te Luo Yi

What did Jesus teach on the subject of 'hell', Troy? It would probably help your understanding of the subject, to begin your studies with that as its basis.

According to this parable, it is hot, you get really thirsty and there is torture.


Ha... Hmm, I mean after all.. it's Jesus' own red words that describe hell here. Will have to get ol' Brad Smith at the BRF to get out his Ivan Panin bible and see if the verse should actually be in the book at all. It may not have the correct gemetria (now it's me winking).

But as I said Ian, I'll let this all sink in before I start rethinking it. I need to try and get a perspective from it all from where you're standing and see how it works.

[LINK SiteName=Mothrust: Movies and Modern Myth Target=_blank]http://aintchristian.blogspot.com.au/[/LINK] Be nice, for everyone that you meet is fighting a harder battle - Anita Roddick
MothandRust Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #25
  • Rank:Forum Oracle
  • Score:41380
  • Posts:1877
  • From:Australia
  • Register:27/02/2004 11:21 PM

Re:Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Date Posted:03/09/2006 4:06 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : Ian Thomason [Anonymous]

Does the Bible teach of a literal 'hell'? If it does, than your argument is basically moot. All I've seen, so far, is you claiming thatGodwilltorturepeople for eternity.

Hiya

Read back a post or two.. we're all stumbling over ourselves and getting ahead before reading back. We're all typing at the same time LOL - classic.

Jesus didn't use the word 'torture'. As it is I'll likely get around to sharing my view on the subject soon enough. But I'd really like to see some solid support for your claims about God torturing people for eternity first.

That seems like symantics considering the word 'torment', but as I said I'd be happy to be told I'm wrong about the bible advocating eternal torture.. all I got is the Lazarus thing. Looking forward to hearing your views soon. It may send the discussion in a new direction, but that's all good too. Gotta go home... late for dinner... later guys!

[LINK SiteName=Mothrust: Movies and Modern Myth Target=_blank]http://aintchristian.blogspot.com.au/[/LINK] Be nice, for everyone that you meet is fighting a harder battle - Anita Roddick
Anonymous Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #26
  • Rank:
  • Score:0
  • Posts:0
  • From:Unknown
  • Register:06/04/2001 10:54 PM

Re:Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Date Posted:03/09/2006 4:16 PMCopy HTML

$%*'`[Ian Thomason]%*'`@Reply to : Te Luo Yi

Do a little more research into the matter, gather some basic facts, come up with a substantive argument/position, and then we'll see if I'm inclined to devote of my time and key strokes in engaging with you

I'm sorry, Troy, but enjoyable as it's been so far, you've not shown a great deal in the thread that warrants my attention just yet. Maybe that will change? I hope so.

Cheers,

Ian
Anonymous Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #27
  • Rank:
  • Score:0
  • Posts:0
  • From:Unknown
  • Register:06/04/2001 10:54 PM

Re:Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Date Posted:03/09/2006 4:24 PMCopy HTML

$%*'`[Ian Thomason]%*'`@Reply to : MothandRust

Pretty risky to be basing your accusations against God on something so flimsy as one parable. Did you learn this approach in the RCI/RF?

Ian
MothandRust Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #28
  • Rank:Forum Oracle
  • Score:41380
  • Posts:1877
  • From:Australia
  • Register:27/02/2004 11:21 PM

Re:Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Date Posted:03/09/2006 5:39 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : Ian Thomason [Anonymous]

Reply to : MothandRustPretty risky to be basing your accusations against God on something so flimsy as one parable. Did you learn this approach in the RCI/RF?Ian

Okay.. well, we'll pretend that pesky scripture doesn't exist then shall we?  If that'll make it easier for you.

I don't see the risk... I've nothing to lose apart from my credibility as a theologian PMSL...and as I've said, I have learnt my approach from the RF. Moreover, seeing as my hypothetical accusation does match up with Jesus' own words, it leads me to believe the bible is contradictory and imperfect. Marry that parable up with the following scriptures:

Matt 5:22 "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever shall say to his brother, 'Raca,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever shall say, 'You fool,' shall be guilty {enough to go} into the fiery hell. (NAS)

Mark 9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. (KJV)

You can do the math there...  but but but...

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

If Hell is a place of neverending torment and the ultimate fate of all mankind unless they so something on earth to prevent it, why didn't God make that plain from the start? He said the penalty for eating of the Tree of the Knowledge was DEATH. He did NOT define death as eternal torment. My accusation is that such a God would be totally preposterous...

I'm not even sure what we're on about here as I don't even know what your position is re: hell. I started out saying that we'd get on if "ya don't try to promote salvation as only evidenced by tongues... or eternal lava baths with pitchforks up the backside... "  - It seems ya don't promote either... so.. welcome to the board (albeith temporarily eh?)... after a convoluted and interesting introduction. Thanks for being inclined to devote some of your precious time and key strokes engaging with us Aimooers.

You've certainly lived up to your reputation


"Father of Mercies! why from silent earth Didst thou awake and curse me into birth, Tear me from quiet, banish me from night, And make a thankless present of Thy light, Push into being a reverse of Thee And animate a clod with misery?" --Young (Night Thoughts)

Your heart will not accept what your mind rejects. --Unknown

[LINK SiteName=Mothrust: Movies and Modern Myth Target=_blank]http://aintchristian.blogspot.com.au/[/LINK] Be nice, for everyone that you meet is fighting a harder battle - Anita Roddick
Ex_Member Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #29
  • Rank:
  • Score:0
  • Posts:0
  • From:Unknown
  • Register:21/09/2018 12:36 AM

Re:Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Date Posted:03/09/2006 8:17 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : Ian Thomason [Anonymous]

Reply to : Te Luo YiDo a little more research into the matter, gather some basic facts, come up with a substantive argument/position, andthenwe'll see if I'm inclined to devote of my time and key strokes in engaging with youI'm sorry, Troy, but enjoyable as it's been so far, you've not shown a great deal in the thread that warrants my attention just yet. Maybe that will change? I hope so.Cheers,Ian

Now now Ian.  Play nice.  Let's keep it fun. 

But it seems as if you're now bored of us and this topic.  Too bad, you started so well. 

We were waiting for your devastating blow with some evidence, not just patronising words with nothing to back it up.

mf doom Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #30
  • Rank:Poster Venti I
  • Score:6110
  • Posts:262
  • From:Unknown
  • Register:13/03/2005 7:23 AM

Re:Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Date Posted:03/09/2006 9:49 PMCopy HTML

if hell is pretty much something bad or even one of the worst things imaginable,

especially if it is used as a metaphor,

then why can it not be likened to torture

if torture is one of the worst things imaginable?

-if that is what comes into the mind of an average- or above-average joe

when reading the words and making sense of them?

 

i stopped reading the bible when it made sense for me to stop doing so. when i felt it was futile.

if two biblical scholars can't agree, what is the point?

the 'digging deeper' is almost like a decoy for the intellectual.

 

and to echo just about everybody:

the word is/should be open to/understandable by all

if not, maybe it was not intended for all.

 

why WAS it translated into english?

perhaps EMPIRE recognised it as an effective tool.

also translated by a king and used to excuse colonial terrorism.

 

IIRC, jesus said let him who hears hear.

in my interpretation of this [yes, is it not so that there is around 6 billion unique interpretations]

you either get it or you don't.

it's for you at the time, or it's not.

 

maybe jesus spiked the water.

or maybe his presence/charisma lifted the energy of the wedding so that it didn't matter whether they had wine or not? the end to which wine is generally used as a means is achieved by a new means with greater effectiveness.

heaven could be a really great high from happiness or drugs or the same type of high, naturally.

once you've reached that place, entered that arena, and you want everybody to be there [perhaps because there will be no more sorrow or fighting],

how do you explain it to people, especially average joes? maybe through parables

 

what if the only way to get there is by being humble, for instance? [it could be a truth, a metaphor or could have been tampered with or misinterpreted by scibes.]

then those who want to experience this try being humble.

 

this also shows that you can make people humble [or act in certain ways] with promises of rewards or truth. you can even subdue them.

or if you want to see it in a more positive way - there may be nothing to be happy about [especially for those who have no hope or love or family or friends or who have suffered a great loss etc.], but you can make them happy by giving them the hope of something good. an illusiory light at the end of the tunnel. the process of heading towards that, actually makes the tunnel lighter. and you eventually reach this light. this satisfaction, contentment etc.

if you have no family, social life or any group support/identity, this voyage, this project, this mission unites you with others in a common venture. a common-union, communion: what was misemphasised so much in the churches.

 

now if i see the word of god as illusiory, yet successful in achieving certain benefits, is my interpretation less valid than those of scholars who choose to follow the never-ending path of technicalities which are rarely kept in check by reality which is constantly ticking by while they try to work out the midset of previous cultures/generations? those looking back to find authenticity, the essence etc. ? [why do these people generally not look further back than the bible?]

come on, the world is past modernism and eurocentrism. however, i understand that if you expose the fact that there is no such thing as authentic identity [or authentic anything - nothing but hybridity - the postmodernist view], it is hard to help those who are still oppressed. just like how i see some good coming out of the scriptures. it CAN help the lost, the lonely, the powerless. there DOES seem to offer hope and a way out. [strategic essentialism?]

however, once that hope raises you to a certain level of happiness, awareness, belonging etc., i would advise against trying to follow the 'easy way out' of the real world... and death and all the harsh realities around you that you want to be saved from [and the only improvement you make is getting others onyo the same bandwagon of self-preservation rather than real-life, relevant and spontaneous solutions]

 

if heaven and hell are opposites, or at least relative,

and metaphoric,

and if hell is negative,

and if your perception of reality and state of mind effect everything including the way you interpret things and reach a higher point,

then a shift from depression to mental stability and contentment, from lonliness to belonging, etc.

could be a shift from hell to heaven.

 

'establishing the kingdom of god on earth'

could be more 'real-world' than certain people would like to admit.

maybe because it requires practice instead of theory?

 

help? yes, why not?

but claiming more correct interpretations?

if spiking the punch proliferates into a mustard tree of love, i'd probably do that 'wrong' thing.

if my dirty jokes make sad people laugh, the same goes.

to me, it really doesn't matter what day it was, what brand of wine it wasn't, what the guy in the corner was thinking or how he saw the world, etc. if i see a whole different point to it. i may not want to jump to the same conclusion as onlookers of the day that this party dude was the son of god.

blind men seeing, etc. these days it seems so obvious to me that this was not necessarily literal. i mean, enlightenment/education can open a whole new world to you that you just couldn't see before.

imagine how dark the world is to some lepers, addicts, abused, orphaned, outcast, deaf, dumb, blind, poor beggars, cold lonely etc. people.

it may be necessary for social change to say that a certain man was the son of god to achieve liberation or equality. and arguing about whether he was or wasn't the son of god [for example] maybe completely unproductive.

looking into the circumstances at the time [as most in this thread are attempting] is a pretty good idea, but it seems that if you do that with a certain belief [some would say irrational], you're not going to see the same thing as a 'non-believer'.

eg. i might see jesus's as a mortal whose aim was fairly 'marxist' . i might see this very clearly in the scriptures and it may empower me to keep the spirit alive, fight the power and promote the revolution.

someone else who believes this person was the son of god and who believes the bible is the word of god is going to see their part in this story completely differently and see [unconsciously pick and choose] all the evidence that supports their understanding. 

i guess this is pretty obvious and i'm no psychologist, but how many people here actually think

"maybe the other person is right"?

i would hazard a guess that those who NEED to hold onto a belief [or be made to look like a fool or a liar] will NOT consider such a thing.

- the type of person who is scared of HELL.

- the type of person who wants to be SAVED from it.

- the type of person who wouldn't know about it if it wasn't used as a weapon against them and their independance and strength.

- the type of person who has had their history and identity distorted by the empire

etc.

 

is there anything wrong with arrogance?

only if you think it is wrong and still insist that you are right.

 

sorry about the length

 

if it gives you joy, enjoy! life aint pretty without it
MothandRust Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #31
  • Rank:Forum Oracle
  • Score:41380
  • Posts:1877
  • From:Australia
  • Register:27/02/2004 11:21 PM

Re:Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Date Posted:03/09/2006 10:54 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : avenger dude

if hell is pretty muchsomething bad or even one of the worst things imaginable,especially if it is used as a metaphorewhy can it not be likened to tortureif torture one of the worst things imaginable.if that is what comes into the mind of an average- or above-average joewhen reading the words and making sense of them?i stopped reading the bible when it made sense for me to stop doing so. when i felt it was futile.if two biblical scholars can't agree, what is the point?the 'digging deeper' is almost like a decoy for the intellectual.and to echo just about everybody:the word is/should be open to/understandable byallif not, maybe it was not intended for all.

I think most who promote the idea of hell as this 'very very bad place' that exists outside of this reality haven't actually tasted of the real heaven and hell that already exists in this reality.

Heaven and hell are here... Have you felt the soul crushing pain of losing a loved one?... Have you fallen in love with someone so much it hurts only to have to let them go forever? Have you had a family member move overseas? Have you lost function of a body part due to sickness? Had your kids reject you? The list goes on and on... Surely we've all felt the reality of hell or the consequence of sin/karma? For every action there is an opposing and equal reaction... that is the nature of the universe.

Q. You know what I notice from the list in the last paragraph?

A. Separation.

When we're separated from those we love.. sometimes forever... it's hell! Someone we love is taken from us due to death or whatever.. and we're forced to live separated from them. Hell is separation and, Oh yeah.. hell exists here and now ladies and gentlemen and it sucks and it hurts... it hurts like hell.

[LINK SiteName=Mothrust: Movies and Modern Myth Target=_blank]http://aintchristian.blogspot.com.au/[/LINK] Be nice, for everyone that you meet is fighting a harder battle - Anita Roddick
mf doom Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #32
  • Rank:Poster Venti I
  • Score:6110
  • Posts:262
  • From:Unknown
  • Register:13/03/2005 7:23 AM

Re:Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Date Posted:03/09/2006 11:43 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : MothandRust

and separation from life! - fear of death.

separation and isolation.

understandable fears. seems like these fears are projected onto to others.

eg. preaching hell

separation from the worldly in this life. the separation of this life and the next life. and the separation of the next life into heaven and hell.

is nothing sacred?!

 

 

if it gives you joy, enjoy! life aint pretty without it
Anonymous Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #33
  • Rank:
  • Score:0
  • Posts:0
  • From:Unknown
  • Register:06/04/2001 10:54 PM

Re:Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Date Posted:04/09/2006 10:47 AMCopy HTML

$%*'`[Ian Thomason]%*'`@Reply to : Te Luo Yi

Now now Ian. Play nice. Let's keep it fun. But it seems as if you're now bored of us and this topic. Too bad, you started so well. We were waiting for your devastating blow with some evidence, not just patronising words with nothing to back it up.

Hey, you're more than welcome to believe whatever you choose concerning my capacity to rebut your 'stinging' critique on hell The fact is that I choose to respond as the mood and as my level of interest leads me. You've done very little to pique the latter, hence the reality of the former. I owe you nothing, after all.

Ian
Anonymous Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #34
  • Rank:
  • Score:0
  • Posts:0
  • From:Unknown
  • Register:06/04/2001 10:54 PM

Re:Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Date Posted:04/09/2006 11:05 AMCopy HTML

$%*'`[Ian Thomason]%*'`@Reply to : MothandRust

Okay.. well, we'll pretend that pesky scripture doesn't exist then shall we? If that'll make it easier for you.

Oh, that Scripture exists all right, but it's anything but 'pesky'

I don't see the risk... I've nothing to lose apart from my credibility as a theologian PMSL...and as I've said, I have learnt my approach from the RF. Moreover, seeing as my hypothetical accusation does match up with Jesus' own words, it leads me to believe the bible is contradictory and imperfect.

Sure. That's certainly an option. Another option would be for you to research the provenance of that particular parable, and the outcomes that result.

Marry that parable up with the following scriptures:

Matt 5:22 "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever shall say to his brother, 'Raca,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever shall say, 'You fool,' shall be guilty {enough to go} into the fiery hell. (NAS)

Mark 9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. (KJV)


The above are all very easily 'squared' with my understanding of the former. But you really do need to do more than simply quote Scripture seriatum, and presume that doing so somehow supports/substantiates your position. Such is little more than the Revivalist approach to interpretation. However, if doing so reassures you, or reinforces what you currently believe, then 'more power to ya'

You can do the math there... but but but...

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

If Hell is a place of neverending torment and the ultimate fate of all mankind unless they so something on earth to prevent it, why didn't God make that plain from the start? He said the penalty for eating of the Tree of the Knowledge was DEATH. He did NOT define death as eternal torment. My accusation is that such a God would be totally preposterous...


Okay, but so?

I'm not even sure what we're on about here as I don't even know what your position is re: hell. I started out saying that we'd get on if "ya don't try to promote salvation as only evidenced by tongues... or eternal lava baths with pitchforks up the backside... " - It seems ya don't promote either... so.. welcome to the board (albeith temporarily eh?)... after a convoluted and interesting introduction. Thanks for being inclined to devote some of your precious time and key strokes engaging with us Aimooers.

You're welcome Please try to understand that this forum simply isn't my all-consuming passion, more than it is a rather quaint distraction. Further convincing you fellows of the errors in your thinking doesn't rate as a great priority of mine. Sorry about that. I'll post when, as and how I see fit; you fellows can take what or say or leave it as you see fit.

You've certainly lived up to your reputation

Excellent! I worked long and hard for that reputation

Cheerio,

Ian
Ex_Member Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #35
  • Rank:
  • Score:0
  • Posts:0
  • From:Unknown
  • Register:21/09/2018 12:36 AM

Re:Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Date Posted:04/09/2006 11:26 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : Ian Thomason [Anonymous]

Hey, you're more than welcome to believe whatever you choose concerning my capacity to rebut your 'stinging' critique on hell

Cheers for the permission.    Wanna know what I believe concerning your capacity regarding this particular parable?  No?  Well, I'll tell you anyway.  So far, you've come up lacking...even to the point that H&S suggested we pretend it doesn't exist.

The fact is that I choose to respond as the mood and as my level of interest leads me.

Of course man.  We all play that way.  You're one of many here in that regard.

You've done very little to pique the latter, hence the reality of the former.

Okie dokie. 

I owe you nothing, after all.

I don't care what other say Ian, I see Jesus in you.

 

Anonymous Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #36
  • Rank:
  • Score:0
  • Posts:0
  • From:Unknown
  • Register:06/04/2001 10:54 PM

Re:Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Date Posted:04/09/2006 11:32 AMCopy HTML

$%*'`[Ian Thomason]%*'`@Reply to : Te Luo Yi

Ha, ha, ha. You'll have to do much better than that, Troy. It's been a loooong time since I was four years old

Troy
Warrick 007 Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #37
  • Rank:
  • Score:0
  • Posts:0
  • From:Unknown
  • Register:21/08/2005 6:47 PM

Re:Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Date Posted:04/09/2006 12:28 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : Ian Thomason [Revival Slayer]

Matt 5:22 "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever shall say to his brother, 'Raca,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever shall say, 'You fool,' shall be guilty {enough to go} into the fiery hell. (NAS)

Mark 9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. (KJV)


"The above are all very easily 'squared' with my understanding of the former."

And that is???

To a man of far less understanding of the bible like myself, the above verse's seem to point very clear that "hell" is a place of eternal pain and torture. If if it isn't, what the Hell is "Hell" all about? LOL!

So where do all the demons and bad angles end up?

Where is Hitler?  Did he just become dust? Or is he Burning in the lake? Or did he come back as Noal Hollins?

Man! what a topic!

Well if the fire's of hell are real, i thinks i will be doing my best to avoide it, and live by the word of God the best way i know how.

Don't think I'LL chance it!

R.B

A man died and went to heaven. He was met by Jesus and Jesus began to show him around. As they walked they saw some amazing things. Some too beautiful and amazing to describe. Eventually they came to a huge wall and the man heard the sound of music, laughing and what basically sounded like a party coming from behind the wall. Curious, the man asked Jesus what was going on behind the wall. Jesus answered, "Shhhh!!! Not too loud. That"s the GRC. They think they"re the only ones here!!!"
MothandRust Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #38
  • Rank:Forum Oracle
  • Score:41380
  • Posts:1877
  • From:Australia
  • Register:27/02/2004 11:21 PM

Re:Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Date Posted:04/09/2006 12:40 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : Ian Thomason [Anonymous]

heya, You asked for some biblical evidence that supports the ridiculous claim held by most of Christendom that hell is eternal and torturous. I obliged you with the parable and some good points were raised. The theorum is that Jesus was painting a picture of retribution and consequences, with the unfortunate analogy of a grim 1st century fairytale... ok. Savvy people at the time may have seen his tongue firmly in cheek... 2000 years later, we can't see his tongue in his cheek and are therefore shaking at the knees about the fiery pit (which btw, is mentioned numerous times elsewhere)

You asked for another scripture.. I obliged. I was aware that I was simply quoting Scripture seriatumly (lol) but I was merely providing the biblical evidence you asked for. Do you really want my commentry now to skim over? I did make a following statement that God did not list such rewards for eating of the tree. If that was the case then everyone would have eternal life, but some would be living it in torment.

Mark 9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. (KJV)

That is not a parable, or is it? It seems to hint, yet again at eternal combustion. You asked for biblical evidence of the concept. I have to remind you again, that I don't believe in the idea of eternal torture.. but these two verses seem to promote the idea. Unless you can 'square' them away for us.

You're welcome Please try to understand that this forum simply isn't my all-consuming passion, more than it is a rather quaint distraction. Further convincing you fellows of the errors in your thinking doesn't rate as a great priority of mine. Sorry about that. I'll post when, as and how I see fit; you fellows can take what or say or leave it as you see fit.

That's fair enough, as it has been said before on this thread, it's unhealthy to pander to addictions and keep flogging a dead horse. I don't think any convincing has been done by anyone here yet. Don't be sorry... I'm sure someone at some stage will find this convo helpful to them.

"You've certainly lived up to your reputation" Excellent! I worked long and hard for that reputation Cheerio, Ian

Ha, ya dag! I'm sure you have ;-) We've all got our all-consuming passions then haven't we? Still waiting eagerly on your take on the whole hell concept once we've cleared out all the bulldust.

Moth

[LINK SiteName=Mothrust: Movies and Modern Myth Target=_blank]http://aintchristian.blogspot.com.au/[/LINK] Be nice, for everyone that you meet is fighting a harder battle - Anita Roddick
Anonymous Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #39
  • Rank:
  • Score:0
  • Posts:0
  • From:Unknown
  • Register:06/04/2001 10:54 PM

Re:Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Date Posted:04/09/2006 2:05 PMCopy HTML

$%*'`[Ian Thomason]%*'`@Reply to : MothandRust

'Moth',

First up, I'm glad to see there's someone who posts here, who has a sense of humour, and who doesn't take himself too seriously

heya, You asked for some biblical evidence that supports the ridiculous claim held by most of Christendom that hell is eternal and torturous.

Nuh, uh. I asked you for evidence that would demonstrate that God is responsible for torturing people throughout eternity

You asked for another scripture.. I obliged. I was aware that I was simply quoting Scripture seriatumly (lol) but I was merely providing the biblical evidence you asked for. Do you really want my commentry now to skim over?

Yep. I'd like to see just how it was that you arrived at your conclusions.

Ta,

Ian
MothandRust Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #40
  • Rank:Forum Oracle
  • Score:41380
  • Posts:1877
  • From:Australia
  • Register:27/02/2004 11:21 PM

Re:Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Date Posted:04/09/2006 2:58 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : Ian Thomason [Anonymous]

First up, I'm glad to see there's someone who posts here, who has a sense of humour, and who doesn't take himself too seriously

I'd be crazy to take myself seriously.. haha... and I wouldn't recommend anyone take me too seriously either. I'll let ya all know when I'm being really serious. The post earlier about loved ones dying etc. that was serious. I was all emotional about a local hero dying. We often took our classes to see Steve Irwins zoo. He'll be missed... our kids had such love and respect for him. Very sad...

heya, You asked for some biblical evidence that supports the ridiculous claim held by most of Christendom that hell is eternal and torturous.
Nuh, uh. I asked you for evidence that would demonstrate that God is responsible for torturing people throughout eternity

ahh yeah.. I did pick up on that when you said it but forgot to pursue that thought (God). I suppose He would get the blame still because He would be allowing it to happen and created the whole shebang in the first place... ergo.

You asked for another scripture.. I obliged. I was aware that I was simply quoting Scripture seriatumly (lol) but I was merely providing the biblical evidence you asked for. Do you really want my commentry now to skim over?
Yep. I'd like to see just how it was that you arrived at your conclusions.

Okay, I'll sum up when I've had more time to mull over it and get my gear in order. I've got to go to the doctor's right now because one of the little demons in my class bashed me in the ear today when I broke up a fight. The little b*****d.. at least he'll get suspended... and possibly go to hell for beating up his teacher.

[LINK SiteName=Mothrust: Movies and Modern Myth Target=_blank]http://aintchristian.blogspot.com.au/[/LINK] Be nice, for everyone that you meet is fighting a harder battle - Anita Roddick
MothandRust Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #41
  • Rank:Forum Oracle
  • Score:41380
  • Posts:1877
  • From:Australia
  • Register:27/02/2004 11:21 PM

Re:Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Date Posted:04/09/2006 3:07 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : Revivals Blood

And that is???To a man of far less understanding of the bible like myself, the above verse's seem to point very clear that "hell" is a place of eternal pain and torture. If if it isn't, what the Hell is "Hell" all about? LOL!So where do all the demons and bad angles end up? Where is Hitler?  Did he just become dust? Or is he Burning in the lake? Or did he come back as Noal Hollins?Man! what a topic! Well if the fire's of hell are real, i thinks i will be doing my best to avoide it, and live by the word of God the best way i know how.Don't think I'LL chance it!

Hey RB... as you can see we're really scraping the barrel to try and get the bible to marry up with the idea of eternal torture. It was a concept that was completely alien to anyone living before the New Testament age.

Certainly can't hurt to live your life in the best way you know how, but I wouldn't go serving a god out of the fear that he'll send you to be tormented (by someone else of his creation) for all days. Fear is a great motivator though... I just can't see a loving God motivating his loved ones in that way.


An idea, which has terrified millions, claims that some of us will go to a place called Hell, where we will suffer eternal torture. This does not scare me because, when I try to imagine a Mind behind this universe, I cannot conceive that Mind, usually called "God," as totally mad. I mean, guys, compare that "God" with the worst monsters you can think of -- Adolph Hitler, Joe Stalin, that sort of guy. None of them ever inflicted more than finite pain on their victims. Even de Sade, in his sado-masochistic fantasy novels, never devised an unlimited torture. The idea that the Mind of Creation (if such exists) wants to torture some of its critters for endless infinities of infinities seems too absurd to take seriously. Such a deranged Mind could not create a mud hut, much less the exquisitely mathematical universe around us. - Robert Anton Wilson

[LINK SiteName=Mothrust: Movies and Modern Myth Target=_blank]http://aintchristian.blogspot.com.au/[/LINK] Be nice, for everyone that you meet is fighting a harder battle - Anita Roddick
MothandRust Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #42
  • Rank:Forum Oracle
  • Score:41380
  • Posts:1877
  • From:Australia
  • Register:27/02/2004 11:21 PM

Re:Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Date Posted:04/09/2006 7:56 PMCopy HTML

Ok, here's the money shot. Let's lay our cards out on the table shall we? Although I've been shit-stirring and batting for the faux-fundy view of hell It's actually my understanding of scripture that the doctrine of neverending woe in the afterlife has no Biblical support... zilch. In my own logic, as warped as some might believe, I can't accept that a wise and omni-omni god created or allowed any kind of an endless hell in his universe. It would be a huge blemish on his character and would always leave a bad smell in the nose of all those living in the adjacent 'heaven'.

  • Hell - (helan: Anglo-Saxon) helan, to cover, or hide, henee the tiling or slating of a house is called.
  • Sheol (Hebrew) & Hadees - (Greek) - neither word means afterlife torment, but rather a place, or state of death.... the word grave could always be substituted...
  • Hadees (a, not, and eulo) it means concealed and has exactly the same meaning as Sheol (grave or death)

Many heathen religions and 'blah' had their legends and folklores of subterrainean punishment scapes brought on by angry gods... and many used the O.T. sheol references to frame the idea around, but heck, even Moses never mentioned such an idea of eternal recompense. By the time Jesus started roaming the planet these hellish concepts were in full flight... but they didn't come from the Old Testament!! Yah, Ian is right.. Jesus borrowed them from the uninspired heathens. The Pagans et. al. held Hadees to be a place of eternal torment after death... this was their idea!!

Then came the whacky Christians who loved to muddy their own waters with doses of heathen ideas. Artists and poets alike revelled in the romanticised images of the writhing damned (yes these are my own words - lol). The idea caught on like wildfire (pun fully intended) and many christians have been vexed and confused ever since.

Hmm... ok.... so did Jesus endorse the idea? Allow me to give Ian some fodder and actually use some scriptures for my view (with some brief commentry lest I be labelled a Revivian backyard theologian once more).

Matt. 11: 23 and Luke 10: 15: And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to Hell (The city was overthrown and desolated... not eternally tormented)

Acts 2: 27: Thou wilt not leave my soul in Hell: neither wilt thou suffer thy holy one to see corruption."  (He died, but his soul was not left in the realms of death, is the meaning.)

Matt. 14: 18 - and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it (He was saying that his church can't be destroyed)

I Cor. 15: 55: O death, where is thy sting?  then check Hos. 14: 14, where the destruction of Hadees is prophesied. It cannot be endless torment. (Ps. 30: 3; II Sam. 22: 5,6). - And death and Hell were cast into the lake of fire

The parable of the rich man.

Whether the story is literal or parable, the rich dude's time in Hades would only be a temporary detention and not an endless one because "death and Hadees will deliver up their occupants". Rev. 20: 13. and Hadees is gonna be destroyed. I Cor. 15: 55; Rev. 20: 14. Therefore Hades is of temporary duration. The Rich Man was not in a place of endless torment.

Cast into hell-fire

And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into Hell-fire." Mark 9: 43, 49.

In other words... It's better to lose an unhealthy lifestyle than to face destruction. Like I alluded to in an earlier post, heaven and hell are here... that's not an absurd notion. The cretins of this planet suffer real death and moral death... there is no need for a future punishment, moreover there is no logic in a future punishment without end.

The worm and the fire

Isaiah 66: 24: "And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh."

So there ya go... it's not this fairytale future abyss that is going to be burning forever on writhing worms - hehe...

Some final text bites:

There is no mention of punishment after death...

Paul, Peter and Moses never mentioned it.

It was never employed by any Christian until Justin and Clement thus used it (A. D. 150) but not in an eternal context. 

Not only death but Hell shall be cast into the lake of fire.

"The Christian Church has never held it exclusively till now. It remained quite an open question till the age of Justinian, 530, and significantly enough, as soon as 200 years before that, endless torment for the heathen became a popular theory, purgatory sprang up synchronously by the side of it, as a relief for the conscience and reason of the church."

'Gehenna,' means primarily, the Valley of Hinnom outside of Jerusalem in which after it had been polluted by Moloch worship, corpses were flung and fires were lit;

[LINK SiteName=Mothrust: Movies and Modern Myth Target=_blank]http://aintchristian.blogspot.com.au/[/LINK] Be nice, for everyone that you meet is fighting a harder battle - Anita Roddick
Anonymous Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #43
  • Rank:
  • Score:0
  • Posts:0
  • From:Unknown
  • Register:06/04/2001 10:54 PM

Re:Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Date Posted:04/09/2006 11:59 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : MothandRust



Ok, here's the money shot. Let's lay our cards out on the table shall we? Although I've been shit-stirring and batting for the faux-fundy view of hell It's actually my understanding of scripture that the doctrine of neverending woe in the afterlife hasno Biblical support... zilch. In my own logic, as warped as some might believe, I can't accept that a wise and omni-omni god created or allowed any kind of an endless hell in his universe. It would be a huge blemish on his character and would always leave a bad smell in the nose of all those living in the adjacent 'heaven'.Hell - (helan: Anglo-Saxon) helan, to cover, or hide, henee the tiling or slating of a house is called.Sheol (Hebrew)& Hadees - (Greek)- neither wordmeans afterlifetorment, but rather a place, or state of death.... the word grave could always





Well making it all simple, the choices are

1) An eternity WITH Jesus

0r 2) An eternity WITHOUT Jesus

Now how hard is that to understand ?? Your choice to make

Anon

MothandRust Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #44
  • Rank:Forum Oracle
  • Score:41380
  • Posts:1877
  • From:Australia
  • Register:27/02/2004 11:21 PM

Re:Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Date Posted:05/09/2006 8:20 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : Anonymous

Well making it all simple, the choices are 1) An eternity WITH Jesus 0r 2) An eternity WITHOUT Jesus. Now how hard is that to understand ?? Your choice to make. Anon

Wow, why didn't i think of that... look at all the time I would have saved. We should throw away the bible and paste your post on our foreheads eh... and please, how does one make sure they'll end up with Jesus? Pray tell.. I'm sure Jesus is nice and all that, he's really fun at parties, and we did spend quite a few years together already. I'd like to see other people for a while before I commit to an eternal commitment again. It's an open relationship now and he's fine with that.. .I asked him already... he got very quiet though (that's his nature), His dad said he's a very jealous god... I told him to get over that 'cause jealousy is not very becoming.

God cannot send to eternal pain a man who has done something toward improving the condition of his fellow-man. If he can, I had rather go to hell than to heaven and keep company with such a god. -Robert Ingersoll

[LINK SiteName=Mothrust: Movies and Modern Myth Target=_blank]http://aintchristian.blogspot.com.au/[/LINK] Be nice, for everyone that you meet is fighting a harder battle - Anita Roddick
Ex_Member Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #45
  • Rank:
  • Score:0
  • Posts:0
  • From:Unknown
  • Register:21/09/2018 12:36 AM

Re:Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Date Posted:05/09/2006 9:38 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : Anonymous

Well making it all simple, the choices are

1) An eternity WITH Jesus

0r 2) An eternity WITHOUT Jesus

Now how hard is that to understand ?? Your choice to make

See, you made it simple, clear and concise.  Too bad you didn't you write the Bible huh?
mf doom Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #46
  • Rank:Poster Venti I
  • Score:6110
  • Posts:262
  • From:Unknown
  • Register:13/03/2005 7:23 AM

Re:Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Date Posted:05/09/2006 9:53 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : Anonymous



Well making it all simple, the choices are

1) An eternity WITH Jesus

0r 2) An eternity WITHOUT Jesus

Now how hard is that to understand ?? Your choice to make

Anon





ahh, so the afterlife is the same as this life...!

so these are our choices, are they...? hmmm... which one should i choose?

and choosing the lesser of two evils is called a choice in the afterlife too?

i just wish we could choose to die!!! you know, become worm food...

gee, it was so much simpler before we started fearing death! now it doesn't even exist!

we still have eternity left!!!

do we have to be conscious to experience hell?

can we equate consciousness to life in any way?

if so, does this mean i can just do nothing and still have eternal life?

maybe a painful one, but at least we have experience.

i wonder if those going to the pearly gates will be able to cope with the change.

i think i'll stop this post............................................here!
if it gives you joy, enjoy! life aint pretty without it
mf doom Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #47
  • Rank:Poster Venti I
  • Score:6110
  • Posts:262
  • From:Unknown
  • Register:13/03/2005 7:23 AM

Re:Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Date Posted:05/09/2006 10:02 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : Te Luo Yi



Your choice to makeSee, you made it simple, clear and concise. Too bad you didn't you write the Bible huh?



touch? perhaps?
if it gives you joy, enjoy! life aint pretty without it
Warrick 007 Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #48
  • Rank:
  • Score:0
  • Posts:0
  • From:Unknown
  • Register:21/08/2005 6:47 PM

Re:Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Date Posted:05/09/2006 11:11 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : MothandRust

Hey RB... as you can see we're really scraping the barrel to try and get the bible to marry up with the idea of eternal torture. It was a concept that was completely alien to anyone living before the New Testament age.

Certainly can't hurt to live your life in the best way you know how, but I wouldn't go serving a god out of the fear that he'll send you to be tormented (by someone else of his creation) for all days. Fear is a great motivator though... I just can't see a loving God motivating his loved ones in that way.


 

Scraping the barrel? maybe just endless dribble.

Like i said in regards to those two verse's you brought up, to me seems to be state of enternal torment. Not to hard to understand for me.

                                  

                                                        " but I wouldn't go serving a god out of the fear that he'll send you to be tormented "

 

I dont serve a God out of fear. I just love to do so. 

It is my understanding the Gods eternal prison was first created for the fallen Angles. And will be there eternal prison. And whoever God sents there will be his perfect judgement. I have offen heard you say " how could God sent most of his creation to this place of eternal pain?" but thats not your call at all, you do not know the hearts and works of people  your call is simple to obey the word or not obey  Its out of  mine and your hand who ends up there.

Doesn't matter how much we try and convice  ourselves that Gods future judgements "are" or "not" Just like there's laws of nature so there's laws of the Spirit, and of the soul in regards to eternity.

To make light of Gods future Judgements to me is to be a fool.  Coz one day at the point of our death, or at the second return of Jesus, we will be faced with it.

A man died and went to heaven. He was met by Jesus and Jesus began to show him around. As they walked they saw some amazing things. Some too beautiful and amazing to describe. Eventually they came to a huge wall and the man heard the sound of music, laughing and what basically sounded like a party coming from behind the wall. Curious, the man asked Jesus what was going on behind the wall. Jesus answered, "Shhhh!!! Not too loud. That"s the GRC. They think they"re the only ones here!!!"
MothandRust Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #49
  • Rank:Forum Oracle
  • Score:41380
  • Posts:1877
  • From:Australia
  • Register:27/02/2004 11:21 PM

Re:Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Date Posted:05/09/2006 12:34 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : Revivals Blood

Scraping the barrel? maybe just endless dribble.

And here I thought you would have some respect for bible research.. 'spose not.

Like i said in regards to those two verse's you brought up, to me seems to be state of enternal torment. Not to hard to understand for me.    " but I wouldn't go serving a god out of the fear that he'll send you to be tormented "

As Ian has said.. can you back up your endless torment concept with a scripture that's not parablic of heathen folklore

It is my understanding the Gods eternal prison was first created for the fallen Angles. And will be there eternal prison. And whoever God sents there will be his perfect judgement. I have offen heard you say " how could God sent most of his creation to this place of eternal pain?" but thats not your call at all, you do not know the hearts and works of people  your call is simple to obey the word or not obey  Its out of  mine and your hand who ends up there.

Can you show us the scriptures to back up you angel theory so that we can come together and reason over them.. or would that just be more dribble to you? That whole side-debate will feel a bit like arguing about what Santa feeds his deer.. but ok.. I'll go there.

Did I say it was my call? Can we look an analyse the word so we can properly obey it.. or just take the word of the pastors and dribblers that pass it onto us?

Doesn't matter how much we try and convice  ourselves that Gods future judgements "are" or "not" Just like there's laws of nature so there's laws of the Spirit, and of the soul in regards to eternity.

The laws of nature are easy.. what goes up comes down... the laws of the spirit (or are we under grace now?) are not so obvious. Thus the hundreds of religions, nay thousands, who think they've worked it out. You're tying to oversimply something that is not black and white at all... and you're the christian one here who offers no scripture to stand on... and don't just cut and paste verses... this thread calls for commentry too

To make light of Gods future Judgements to me is to be a fool.  Coz one day at the point of our death, or at the second return of Jesus, we will be faced with it.

Gee... it's a sad god and follower that can't have a sense of humour Wazza. So it's ok to make fun of God's children... (Noel is still at least spirit-filled to you isnt he) but it's not ok to make light of the great unknown beyond? You're way out of whack dude. Sounds to me like you do serve god out of fear more than love. Judgement is now man... you're living it.

[LINK SiteName=Mothrust: Movies and Modern Myth Target=_blank]http://aintchristian.blogspot.com.au/[/LINK] Be nice, for everyone that you meet is fighting a harder battle - Anita Roddick
Anonymous Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #50
  • Rank:
  • Score:0
  • Posts:0
  • From:Unknown
  • Register:06/04/2001 10:54 PM

Re:Is Hell is a place of eternal torture?

Date Posted:05/09/2006 1:15 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : MothandRust

Gee... it's a sad god and follower that can't have a sense of humour Wazza. So it's ok to make fun of God's children... (Noel is still at least spirit-filled to you isnt he) but it's not ok to make light of the great unknown beyond? You're way out of whack dude. Sounds to me like you do serve god out of fear more than love. Judgement is now man... you're living it.


 

oh please! what ever!!.

I'v written more in my last 2 posts to mr J than i have in the last 6 months on this forum. Trust me I'm about free of the aimoo bug. hehe

But hey like Mr J said, what ever yanks your chain! LOL

All the best Pete

RB

 

 

 

RCI prophesies
Copyright © 2000-2019 Aimoo Free Forum All rights reserved.