Hi HG

You look so lonely here on your own post with nobody else.

I'll start off with this:

When this was said by Jesus to the Samaritan woman, it was immediately after the Nicodemus chapter 3 story about being born from above, and prior to that John in chapter 1 does this wonderful summary of who Jesus is (word made flesh) - a summary of his entire mission, really.

My point is that this was a new concept to worship from what the old testament law provided. So now, in chapter 4, the Father is seeking this sort of worship of himself. Not a physical but a spiritual worship. I'm not sure it means the Holy Spirit as such in this particular verse (though maybe it does) but I take it to mean a complete change about of what went before.

I'll leave it there before I make a complete fool of myself when others who know step in ha ha.

Chips

Thanks all.

Ian: I would LOVE to know what it actually means!!

HG

Good morning, all.

A very brief summary of the most pertinent issues might help.

To begin with we need to consider John 4:24 in it's immediate literary setting, before we start reflecting on it's theological meaning. John chapter 4 presents Jesus leaving Judea in order to avoid conflict with the Pharisees; his route to Galilee taking him through Samaria. At Sychar he rests beside Jacob's Well, and encounters a Samaritan woman. John 4:4-20 covers Jesus' further use of the "misunderstood statement" as a vehicle for teaching (consider Nicodemus in the previous chapter as an earlier example of this pedagogical method), with the woman eventually realising that Jesus was the long anticipated Taheb (the Samaritan concept of the "Messiah"). In verses 21 and 22 the statement is made that the worshiping of "God" very soon would no longer be an issue of ethnicity (hence Jesus' reference to geography, coupled with his statement about ignorance), but of correctly understanding whom it is that one worships.

Consider: (1) Jesus left Judea because the Pharisees refused to accept that he taught correctly about himself and God. (2) He stopped at Samaria, a region populated by people despised by Jews, largely because the Jews believed that they failed to worship God correctly. (3) The Samaritan woman had spiritual insight enough to identify what the Jewish religious leaders failed to see: that Jesus was the Messiah! (4) In spite of this, Jesus chastened the woman for being part of a group that didn't understand  correctly who it was that they sought to worship!

In verse 23 Jesus states: "But a time is coming–and now is here–when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father seeks such people to be his worshipers" (αλλ' ερχεται ωρα και νυν εστιν οτε οι αληθινοι προσκυνηται προσκυνησουσιν τω πατρι εν πνευματι και αληθεια και γαρ ο πατηρ τοιουτους ζητει τους προσκυνουντας αυτον). First, Jesus very clearly stated that the time for correctly worshiping God had arrived. The time had arrived because Jesus had arrived. Second, that such worship would consist in "spirit and truth", and not with [the] "Spirit and truth". The distinction is qualitative: Revivalism promotes the mistaken idea that the verse teaches about the indwelling Holy Spirit (or more correctly from their perspective, "tongues") being the primary idea. However the following verse dismisses this possibility: "God is spirit, and the people who worship him must worship in spirit and truth" (πνευμα ο θεος και τους προσκυνουντας αυτον εν πνευματι και αληθεια δει προσκυνειν). Grammatically the word "spirit" (πνευμα) is a qualitative predicate nominative, whilst "God" (θεος), having the article, is the subject of the passage. In other words, being "spirit" is a quality of God, and of him alone. To worship God in spirit and truth (the conjunction "and" functions in a copulative rather than a cumulative sense) is to correctly acknowledge his rights and prerogatives to being God; it is to correctly understand whom it is that one worships!

Revivalism has, at best, abstract conceptions regarding both God and Jesus. So too did the Samaritans, and like the Samaritans, such an inadequate understanding ensures that the worship is similarly inadequate.

This is but a general summary of the issue. We can certainly tease out the particulars should people wish to consider the detail, in detail

Blessings,

Ian

Thanks Ian, certainly a lot to think about there!  No worries Epi.

Now, here's what I've heard in the last 2 weeks.  I've been to 2 church services (different ones) in the last 2 weeks, and they have both spoken about this scripture.  The first one basically said it meant shouting and dancing, and the 2nd one said it meant 'our hearts linking and beating as one with God'.  Both very weak and nothing intertpretations I thought. I could barely sit there.

HG

My densenness is showing through again. Let me see if I am getting this right.  To worship God in spirit and truth. The 'spirit and truth' bit of the sentence pertains to God, not to us??