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worriedmum
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Date Posted:17/08/2007 9:47 PMCopy HTML

Hi all! I have been feeling very depressed lately. My son's become involved with Revival Fellowship. They come and take him to their church in Woodcroft every Sunday. He said he received a holy spirit last year and he spoke in tounges. He also goes to other meetings often and distributes door -to-door leaflets. We were baptised in another mainstream Christian church when he was three, but I never was a frequent church goer, mostly for christening or funerals. I actually always found it difficult to believe in the Bible, as I always prefered scientific explanations for everything in life. I have always been more of an agnostic. So it is a worry to listen to him when he tells me we come from Adam and  Eve and I will burn in hell for not believing in Jesus as the only God. I am afraid I have been pushing him to study too much, and now he is at  a uni, but also turning into a fanatic. As I understand for this church education is not a priority but serving God. He does not touch any alcohol, we had a wedding with my partner of 7 years last summer, he did not raise a glass to us even then. Also he stopped his bodybuilding exercises, and he lost weight. He said it distracts him from his faith. Also, he said - no sex before marriage even if he gets married at 30. He is a good looking guy but shy. I am absolutely devastated by his choice of religion. Why would he need to go into such extremes?  No logic works for  him anymore. I am becoming an atheist since I have been learning more about Christianity. The gap between us is growing.  How do we get cult councelling? What else can I do?
If you attribute all your problems in life to God, and everything what you achieve in life to prayers, then you deprive yourself of a merit and deny yourself a chance of finding true causes of your problems and improving your present life and lives of the people around you. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Discover true Bible http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/inconsistencies.html
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Re:Hi! Where Do I get help for my son?

Date Posted:18/08/2007 6:14 AMCopy HTML

Hi Worried mum,

First welcome to the forum

If your plight is true a feel for you and understand your concern.

However if you  son is involved in perth and  is going to woodcroft doesnt add up to me woodcroft to my knowledge is in adelaide, ?

So My question is this a true call for help ?

no offence meant however?????

Earth5

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Re:Hi! Where Do I get help for my son?

Date Posted:18/08/2007 10:31 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : earth5

Hi Worried mum,First welcome to the forumIf your plight is true a feel for you and understand your concern.However if you son is involved in perth and is going to woodcroft doesnt add up to me woodcroft to my knowledge is in adelaide, ?So My question is this a true call for help ?no offence meant however?????Earth5

Hi earth, I can't figure out how you came to this conclusion.

To worriedmum,

From my experience in RF, it was not such a burden to carry and your son could do a lot worse. The group do have a lot of good points when it comes to social events and the like. I would rather see my kids attending  those functions than to be involved in "worldy" ones where there can be alcohol, drugs and violence. It is always a concern for the mums and dads that want the best for their kids.

However, my greatest concern is that for the false doctrine the Revivalists adhere to and it was on this bases that I personally withdrew from that organisation. The bible warns us that some will pervert the truth of the gospel and bring in their own heresies and this leads to legalism, mind control,etc.,   I say, the only way to combat this is, continue to believe in God, and prayerfully seek out the truth so that you have something to fight back with to show your son there is a better way to follow the Lord.  Read the links below would be a good start. Our prayers are with you.

OTR.

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Re:Hi! Where Do I get help for my son?

Date Posted:18/08/2007 10:48 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : earth5

Hi Worried mum,First welcome to the forumIf your plight is true a feel for you and understand your concern.However if you son is involved in perth and is going to woodcroft doesnt add up to me woodcroft to my knowledge is in adelaide, ?So My question is this a true call for help ?no offence meant however?????Earth5




am I missing something here, I didn't see any mention of Perth anywhere in worried mum's post?! why wouldn't it be genuine?

Hi worried mum, I am from SA and used to go to the Woodcroft church before I came to my senses I am not a parent but I have friends & family who are still in the RF. I remember acting just like your son is now, and I also know what it's like to be free from that way of thinking, so I can sympathise.

While your son is involved with that group he is not likely to change his mind about alcohol, sex before marriage, etc so I think the best thing you can do is encourage him to keep an open mind, question what he is told by the RF, and trust his own judgement rather than just following what they say without thinking. If he is a recent convert he's probably still in 'over-zealous' mode too so he may well ease up a bit once the initial buzz wears off.

Maybe you could point him in the direction of this forum, or the Please Consider site, to get him thinking about whether the RF teachings are really the truth?

As I said I'm not a parent but it must be so heartbreaking for you to see your son change in this way. You will find some good support from users here on this forum if you need it -- 'Sea Urchin' and her family used to go to Woodcroft, they might even know your son and I'm sure would be happy to talk to you if you like (I'm dobbing you in here Sea Urchin but I'm sure you won't mind a bit!)

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Re:Hi! Where Do I get help for my son?

Date Posted:18/08/2007 10:50 AMCopy HTML

OTR you beat me to it - great minds think alike eh!
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Re:Hi! Where Do I get help for my son?

Date Posted:18/08/2007 10:57 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : no1home

OTR you beat me to it - great minds think alike eh!
Ain't it the truth though.
worriedmum Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #6
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Re:Hi! Where Do I get help for my son?

Date Posted:18/08/2007 1:25 PMCopy HTML

Thank you ,everyone, for talking to me. For those that did not say anything, please understand me, I am not against any religion. As I said, we were both baptised with my son when he was three. I thought it was good he was not into drinking, clubs and drugs, and he goes to church, when it all started three yers ago, until he started talking dogma. It was like it was his way of rebelling against his parents. I did not even think about RF as a cult. Then I  went there and I was terrified. These people actually believe that they can heal any illnesses by praying? When they started speaking in tounges I could have laughed, if only my son was not involved in it. I became very worried instead. I am from a very educated family, I love linguistics, I have learned to recognise many world languages. What I heard mostly was "kiri-kiri-ya-yaa" which was then translated into English verse from the Bible a few sentences long.  It was against all logic of linguistics. There was not a single possibility that that was a geniune translation. I witnessed a mass hysteria. I wanted to scream: Can't you see, people, how you have been decieved! I understood that my son is under a strong influence of what he experienced by speaking in tounges. I try to talk to him very often. He refuses to read this forum though. He asks, what is an alternative, if I don't go to RF? I have found out that cult counselling may help, but I don't know where to find it. Thank you for your advice to pray, it may be a  help, but personally I prefer action. Please, please , don't be disheartened, but this is how I see things.

So I wanted to ask you, those who broke away from RF, what was an alternative for you? What triggered it? What helped you to see the truth?

If you attribute all your problems in life to God, and everything what you achieve in life to prayers, then you deprive yourself of a merit and deny yourself a chance of finding true causes of your problems and improving your present life and lives of the people around you. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Discover true Bible http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/inconsistencies.html
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Re:Hi! Where Do I get help for my son?

Date Posted:18/08/2007 1:46 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : worriedmum


As I understand for this church education is not a priority but serving God. He does not touch any alcohol, we had a wedding with my partner of 7 years last summer, he did not raise a glass to us even then. Also he stopped his bodybuilding exercises, and he lost weight. He said it distracts him from his faith. Also, he said - no sex before marriage even if he gets married at 30. He is a good looking guy but shy. I am absolutely devastated by his choice of religion. Why would he need to go into such extremes?  No logic works for  him anymore. I am becoming an atheist since I have been learning more about Christianity. The gap between us is growing.  How do we get cult councelling? What else can I do?

Hi WM, I would be depressed too. I often wonder how I would react if my children started getting mixed up in the church lifestyle, yet alone Revival. Even the tamer churches are adamant on separating people into 'saved' and 'unsaved' categories. The Revivalists take this a step further and convince themselves that their particular organisation (with it's tongue practice) are even more set apart from the rest of humanity. They feel even more special and unique and chosen and set-apart. It sounds like he's taken it all in 'hook, line and sinker', and there's little you can do other than offer alternate views (ie. these websites) if the opportunity comes up, hoping that he'll find disillusion in something. Hell, tongues and Adam and Eve all become incredibly believable when you fellowship with like-minded people who are intent on propagating the stories in order to properly define who's IN and who's OUT. It's sad, but it's the way of things.

My mother was where you are exactly when I started going to Revival churches at the age of 16. If she made too much of a fuss about it, I avoided her, and after a while I started to dislike her for not believing in what I did. I eventually did see reason, but it was in my own time. There was no way I'd accept the advice from anyone outside of the church... no matter who they were. Atheist arguments and reasonable logic don't work on Christians unless they are themselves questioning their own beliefs (vica versa).

Serving God definitely takes precedence over study, in their opinion, but I think that's an attitude that's waning in recent years. Cult counselling won't do. They refuse to be given anything close to that label and will get very defensive and angry if you even think the word towards them. Counselling outside of the group is a definite no-no, especially when simply being able to dabble in the teachings of less legalistic churches is thoroughly discouraged.

He needs to work it out in his own time and he won't be forced, unfortunately. Good luck, he's still your son, they can't and won't take that away from him. Try to accept him for for what he is and what he believes, 'cause you'll either smother him or drive him away. Sigh... the trappings of organised doctrine and religion driving family members apart and killing personality - far too sad.

Time and chance.

[LINK SiteName=Mothrust: Movies and Modern Myth Target=_blank]http://aintchristian.blogspot.com.au/[/LINK] Be nice, for everyone that you meet is fighting a harder battle - Anita Roddick
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Re:Hi! Where Do I get help for my son?

Date Posted:18/08/2007 2:10 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : worriedmum

Thank you ,everyone, for talking to me. For those that did not say anything, please understand me, I am not against any religion.

Neither am I, but I am finding that it can be destructive, very much so... but then so can anything that is taken to extreme - eating, drinking, sex, religion... balance and moderation is the key.

As I said, we were both baptised with my son when he was three. I thought it was good he was not into drinking, clubs and drugs, and he goes to church, when it all started three yers ago, until he started talking dogma. It was like it was his way of rebelling against his parents.

Uh huh, I'm sure it was a natural teenage tendency to rebel from parents and work out his way in life independently. He certainly could have gone through many other more destructive paths or more realistic ones, but this is the one he chose and this is where he is.

I did not even think about RF as a cult. Then I  went there and I was terrified. These people actually believe that they can heal any illnesses by praying?

There's a trait that's apparent in any religioin or cult. If the illness is healed god and church get the glory, if they illness continues, gets worse or leads to death, then god's wisdom is humbly acknowledged and revered. It's win-win for god there.

When they started speaking in tounges I could have laughed, if only my son was not involved in it. I became very worried instead. I am from a very educated family, I love linguistics, I have learned to recognise many world languages. What I heard mostly was "kiri-kiri-ya-yaa" which was then translated into English verse from the Bible a few sentences long.  It was against all logic of linguistics. There was not a single possibility that that was a geniune translation.

Their usual response to this is that the tongue is often a request and the interpretation is a response to it. There's no linguistics at all and the practice of prayerful gibberish dates back well before Christianity to pagan origins.

I witnessed a mass hysteria. I wanted to scream: Can't you see, people, how you have been decieved! I understood that my son is under a strong influence of what he experienced by speaking in tounges.

When everybody else is doing it and they can get a mish mash of translated bible text to fit in with their idea, it becomes a very powerful method of mind-control. Alternatives to their doctrine are seen as Satanic attacks... another defense mechanism popular against any church that has core beliefs questioned.

Thank you for your advice to pray, it may be a  help, but personally I prefer action. Please, please , don't be disheartened, but this is how I see things.

There's no scripture that says 'God helps those who help themselves', but there should be. Christians are still very quick to run to the doctor and get medication and hopefully respond to health problems by healthier living rather than waiting on God. Prayer is nice as it gives someone something to blame if things eventuate, but unfortunately prayer is going to get absolutely nothing done (yes, this message was brought to you by satan ).

So I wanted to ask you, those who broke away from RF, what was an alternative for you? What triggered it? What helped you to see the truth?

An epiphany.. a moment of clarity, realisation and reason. There's no magic bullet to trigger them though... The ability to detect bullshit. Bravery to challenge beliefs. An open mind. There's always hope that his penny will drop. That he'll meet a girl outside of the church and begin to realise that she doesn't need to be saved. He might flirt with the idea one day that a loving god wouldn't have designed his universe in such a way that most of it would be tortured in hell forever. I truly don't think there's any way that you'll speed the process up. He may go on to be a lifelong zealous Revivalist and pastor his own church... sigh.

 

[LINK SiteName=Mothrust: Movies and Modern Myth Target=_blank]http://aintchristian.blogspot.com.au/[/LINK] Be nice, for everyone that you meet is fighting a harder battle - Anita Roddick
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Re:Hi! Where Do I get help for my son?

Date Posted:18/08/2007 2:29 PMCopy HTML

Hi there 'worriemum',

[But firstly.... EARTH5, what was in your breakfast today, dude? You seem to have jumped to some wild conclusions here, and I can't follow where you're coming from. Normally, you are much more 'with it']

Back to mum...

You have every reason to be concerned for your son's welfare. In subtle ways, the RF can and will manipulate your son to adopt their mindset wholly, and distance himself from everything else. This happened to me at age 22, and I was 39 by the time I developed the strength and clarity of mind enough to leave and emerge from the fog. Even then, it took some time to disentangle myself from the trappings of their mind-control. They can have profound ways of superimposing their mindset over our will, and diminishing our self identity to a point where we are quite unaware what we are doing. With some, this can swallow up their life. For others, the delusion is quickly realised, and many folk do emerge after a while, and return to their senses. And in other cases, some event occurs that leads to their expulsion, and being away from the group gives the person enough perspective to see the folly of life in the group.

What can you do?

I suggest you avoid direct confrontation or challenges of his 'beliefs' or open criticism of the RF.
Love your son, let him know that you love and care for him unconditionally. Don't make a big deal about the RF, but do mention in a gentle way that you are concerned about his path. Tell him that because of your concerns, you looked into the RF, and say how you are worried as you have read some very disturbing info about them. Don't be pushy, but let him know how he can access the info if he wants to see for himself. Let him know that you respect his right to choose his way, and give him affirmations that he is a strong, intelligent individual that will rise above anyone or anything if it is not good for him. Trust him to come to this realisation himself. You should have faith in your son. None of us can change his mind for him. We can only give him the love, support, and trust so that this environment can allow him to come to his own epiphany in his own time.

Until then, don't war with him, and avoid conflict about his beliefs. Always be open, undertanding and available to him, so that he can feel free to speak to you about matters in his life. Without being intrusive, make sure you see him regularly and spent quality time with him. Be aware that the RF will subtly suggest to him that only folk who have the RF mindset are worthy of his time, unless they are being drawn also into the RF. You must learn how to be skillful in countering this. Develop intelligent strategies to defend your position, whilst challenging his, if he tries to convert you. You may even need to be a bit cunning in covertly leading him to anything that may make him question his beliefs, but without you being seen as the protagonist.

Finally, hold firmly to this vision..........

See yourself at a time in the not-too-distant future, sitting around a table. It's a warm, family occasion, (maybe christmas or similar), surrounded by your family, including your son (maybe he has a lovely wife, maybe a child or two)....

The feeling is one of great love, harmony, and joy. Everyone is basking in each other's company, the conversation is easy, and fun. After a while, you find yourself sitting comfortably with your son, chatting. You share with him how happy you are that he found his way out of the grip of the RF, and that he has made a wonderful life for himself that is inclusive of his family. Acknowledging the same, he calmly reflects on how he had been when he was there, and how he became more and more aware of what was wrong there. Saying that he now sees what is most important, he gives you a long, warm hug, and thanks you for always being there for him.

This is just a scenario that I've made up. Mum, you create your own vision, but indulge in it regularly, especially as you go to bed at night. Make it as detailed or colourful as you like, but make your visualisation rich with sensual imagary and feelings, and FEEL it as though it IS YOUR REALITY.

My warmest wishes, 'worriedmum'.


Dogmafree.

"for there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so" Shakespeare (Hamlet, Act 2, Scene 2)
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Re:Hi! Where Do I get help for my son?

Date Posted:18/08/2007 3:32 PMCopy HTML

Yes, it could have been helpful, dear friends, a while ago. Thank you for your posts. We are beyond these. I think our relationship is breaking down. I don't know how to fix it. It looks like we despise each other. That's why I was hoping some counselling may help. It is really upsetting, if you are saying there is no hope for me, or is it 50/50 chance? So you wasted so much of your life on RF and think that my patience with RF can last forever? Never mind. I found this forum very useful. I will read some posts to my son and I wil say again how worried I am.
If you attribute all your problems in life to God, and everything what you achieve in life to prayers, then you deprive yourself of a merit and deny yourself a chance of finding true causes of your problems and improving your present life and lives of the people around you. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Discover true Bible http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/inconsistencies.html
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Re:Hi! Where Do I get help for my son?

Date Posted:18/08/2007 4:10 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : worriedmum



Yes, it could have been helpful, dear friends, a while ago. Thank you for your posts. We are beyond these.I think our relationship is breaking down. I don't know how to fix it.It looks like we despise each other. That's why I was hoping some counselling may help.It is really upsetting, if you are saying there is no hope for me, or is it 50/50 chance? So you wasted so much of your life on RF and think that my patience with RF can last forever? Never mind. I found this forum very useful. I will read some posts to my son and I wil say again how worried I am.





W/M,

Don't be despondent, there IS HOPE!!!

Its just that we have to allow our adult children to find their own way through the jungle of life. Struggling against their choices and trying to directly change their mind can be counter-productive.

I don't know if this will resonate with you, but please read this post I made a while back...

http://www.aimoo.com/forum/postview.cfm?id=443300&CategoryID=148055&startcat=1&ThreadID=2807067

Best wishes!

Dogmafree.
"for there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so" Shakespeare (Hamlet, Act 2, Scene 2)
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Re:Hi! Where Do I get help for my son?

Date Posted:18/08/2007 4:16 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : worriedmum

Yes, it could have been helpful, dear friends, a while ago.

Hi worried mum. I put my mum through the same thing you're going through now. It's sad but it took me 20 years to get out. Meanwhile my relationship with my family was strained to the last straw but mum hung in there and refused to let me go.  The others here have pretty much told it how it is. Counselling from "worldly" sources would probably be seen as the devil.

What did it for my husband and I was seeing that one of their doctrines was based on myth except I'm not sure how much emphasis the RF put on British Israelism. However over the years I had questioned a lot of other things. One is this. That church expels people for sex outside marriage - quite often for years. My question was that in 1st Corinthians chapter 5 there was an example like this - Paul said to expel him... Then he wrote 2nd Corinthians 6-9 months later and said let that man back. When I found that out I had a big question mark as to why punishment in our group was so severe. Maybe you could bring it up in conversation ie what is your church policy on sex before marriage? how long will they put you out for? show me in the Bible... what if he repents. then try when was this written and how much later was this written.

Another major thing I questioned was the anti-semitism in our group.(GRC - though I've heard it's as prevelent in the RCI)

My husband had issues with a verse that says "Obey them that have the rule over you" The GRC used that to mean unconditional obedience to the pastor - my husband looked at what that really meant. it was not about mindless obedience but that pastors had a responsibility to thoroughly explain reasons why.

they say all references to wine in the NT was grape juice. Why would it then say don't be drunk with grape juice?

maybe some of the other posters could mention specifics that put big questions in their minds.

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Re:Hi! Where Do I get help for my son?

Date Posted:19/08/2007 1:22 PMCopy HTML

to all....
when this post was first on it mentioned perth, ( i may have read it wrong) I double checked w/mpost prior to my response andto my recolection it mentiioned perth???????

If I read it wrong I appologise to worried mum, if I read it right then maybe we are being taken in.

I truley hope I read it wrong (as you know we can go back and change a post we made ourselves)

Worried Mum we are all here to help in what way we can
earth5
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Re:Hi! Where Do I get help for my son?

Date Posted:19/08/2007 9:05 PMCopy HTML

Hi All!

To the ADMIN. Can you tell me, please? I don't know how to hide my profile.

To earth5. I did not know I could change my post, thanks for telling. If you still can check my profile, I think it says Adelaide. Even if I ever wanted to say Perth, I would probably do that to hide my identity, but then of course, what is the point, if I say my son goes to Woodcroft. Anyway, does it matter? Will you point a finger at me in Woodcroft ,if you guess, who we are? I am afraid, people from that centre may read my posts and use the information to their advantage. I don't know what to expect after reading some of the posts here. Will they encourage my son to leave home, leave his family? Even though he is a student and it would be very difficult for him to support himself. Anyway, the more I read the more  I become worried. Are you offering help? What help can you offer? At the moment I am trying to search internet to answer my son's question - what is an alternative to RF. (I am also trying to find a psychologist for him.)

To everyone.This may be of interest to you. What I found today on the internet.

From "The battle for your mind'  by Dick Sutphen (this psychologist  talks about the techniques used by revivalist's leaders on the public for conversion)

"CONVERSION is a 'nice' word for BRAINWASHING.'

"True Believers & Mass Movements

    Before ending this section on conversion, I want to talk about the
    people who are most susceptible to it and about Mass Movements. I
    am convinced that at least a third of the population is what Eric
    Hoffer calls "true believers." They are joiners and followers . .
    . people who want to give away their power. They look for answers,
    meaning, and enlightenment outside themselves.

    Hoffer, who wrote THE TRUE BELIEVER, a classic on mass movements,
    says, "true believers are not intent on bolstering and advancing a
    cherished self, but are those craving to be rid of unwanted self.
    They are followers, not because of a desire for self-advancement,
    but because it can satisfy their passion for self-renunciation!"
    Hoffer also says that true believers "are eternally incomplete and
    eternally insecure"!

    I know this from my own experience. In my years of communicating
    concepts and conducting trainings, I have run into them again and
    again. All I can do is attempt to show them that the only thing to
    seek is the True Self within. Their personal answers are to be
    found there and there alone. I communicate that the basics of
    spirituality are self-responsibility and self-actualization.

    But most of the true believers just tell me that I'm not spiritual
    and go looking for someone who will give them the dogma and
    structure they desire. "end of quote

I highlighted. Then another question arose. How do we achive self-actualization? According to Maslow, we must achieve spirituality first, as I remember. So it's getting confusing to me. Does anyone understand this well?

If you attribute all your problems in life to God, and everything what you achieve in life to prayers, then you deprive yourself of a merit and deny yourself a chance of finding true causes of your problems and improving your present life and lives of the people around you. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Discover true Bible http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/inconsistencies.html
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Re:Hi! Where Do I get help for my son?

Date Posted:19/08/2007 11:27 PMCopy HTML

hi worried mum, i know its hard for you right now, and you are in a difficult situation, however, i think you are dismissing the advice you have been given so far, i know you think its too late but you are his mother, he does love you- constantly attacking the the RF will only put space between you, making it easier for them to convince him to seperate from you.

if you realy dont want him to move out of home you need to change what you are doing, i know its hard, but it is the truth.

the RF have share houses with young men who are unmarried, he could esily move into one of therse if you make him feel he needs to be in a more godly house, the fact he hasnt already, shows how much he doesnt want to remove you from his life.

you can not make him leave, you can not make him go to councilling.

what you can do is love him, support him, educate yourself on what the RF teach and what the bible realy says (i know you dont belive in christianity anymore, but he does and it is the biblical realities at this point that are most likly to get through to him at this point) but do not attack him, discuss with him, with no anger, hard i know but realy important.

at the end of the day you may have to step back, and keep loving him while he devotes a large part of his life to the RF and hope at some point he works out for himself how wrong it is, and when he does, be there for him because belive me it isnt easy being part of "the world" after.

emotional support from you will be the most important with no i told you so, thats when you need to find him a good therapist with cult experience.

its too easy to spin out and find numbness in alcohol and drugs ect.

Sea Urchin Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #16
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Re:Hi! Where Do I get help for my son?

Date Posted:20/08/2007 9:28 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : worriedmum


Hello worriedmum

I have sent you a 'Private Message' a few days ago, if you log in to the forum, a message comes up on top that tells you that you have 1 private message and you can click on it and read it.  If I can help in any way, I am more than happy to do so as stated in my PM to you.  I also went to Woodcroft for many years and have recently left with a group of people including men who were involved with oversight.   God opened our eyes and showed us things that resulted in us having to leave the RF completely and I have not regretted this decision in the least.  In fact my walk with God has improved beyond measure as I have found a church that believes in 'leading' people, not controlling/manipulating them.

If I can offer any advice to you, it would be to say that I believe the most important thing you can do for your son, is just to be there for him and love him unconditionally because he needs to know that people 'outside of the RF' also love and support him.  Rather than alienate him, do the opposite and by doing this you will keep him with you and he will be less likely to want to move out and live with other  guys.  I hope and pray  that he is given a glimpse of how manipulative and controlling they can be, and also that you find peace over this situation.

urchin

Your unfailing love, O Lord, is as vast as the heavens; your faithfulness reaches beyond the clouds. Your righteousness is like the mighty mountains, your justice like the ocean depths.
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Re:Hi! Where Do I get help for my son?

Date Posted:20/08/2007 1:46 PMCopy HTML

Hi, Sea Urchin. I found your msg and replyed, thank you!

Hi breakfree.

 May be I am dismissing the advice "do nothing... sit and wait... may be he will understand...may be not"

Yes, he is my only son. Do you know what a mother can do ?

There is a difference between attacking and trying to open my son's eyes. I never said before, that I felt people from RF are sticky like a chewing gum, if you let them stick to you it is difficult then to get rid of them. Now, that is attacking.

They are so dangerous, I am so happy you told me, they can actually convince him to leave home. So, will they make pancakes for him in the morning? Pick him up from uni? Kiss him goodnight?

 you can not make him leave, you can not make him go to councilling.

Yes, I can!

what you can do is love him, support him, educate yourself on what the RF teach and what the bible realy says (i know you dont belive in christianity anymore, but he does and it is the biblical realities at this point that are most likly to get through to him at this point) but do not attack him, discuss with him, with no anger, hard i know but realy important.

Yes, I am trying to do all that.

at the end of the day you may have to step back, and keep loving him while he devotes a large part of his life to the RF and hope at some point he works out for himself how wrong it is, and when he does, be there for him because belive me it isnt easy being part of "the world" after.

That is what I am trying to prevent.

                                               GOING BACK TO MASLOW'S HIERARCHY OF HUMAN NEEDS

It looks like, spirituality was not a part of that at all, it was simply my lecturer's intrerpretation! Anyway, I am still looking. The truth is out there! 

If you attribute all your problems in life to God, and everything what you achieve in life to prayers, then you deprive yourself of a merit and deny yourself a chance of finding true causes of your problems and improving your present life and lives of the people around you. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Discover true Bible http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/inconsistencies.html
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Re:Hi! Where Do I get help for my son?

Date Posted:20/08/2007 4:07 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : worriedmum

HI worried mum,
Heres the address of a self-realization website - http://www.yogananda-srf.org/index.html

I think you are getting good advise from everyone. I was in RF from about 20 year old to 40 years old. My parents didn't like it, but through all those years did not say anything negative about it at all. I was so indocrinated I would not have listened to them, as you are told that the devil will try and decieve you to 'fall away' and family can be dangerous.

If you try and talk him out of it, he will probably start avoiding you, and will not talk about it. If you say nothing, I think you would be more likely to keep a relationship going with him, for as long as he stays in the group.
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Re:Hi! Where Do I get help for my son?

Date Posted:21/08/2007 5:32 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : worriedmum

Hi all! I have been feeling very depressed lately. My son's become involved with Revival Fellowship. They come and take him to their church in Woodcroft every Sunday. He said he received a holy spirit last year and he spoke in tounges. He also goes to other meetings often and distributes door -to-door leaflets. We were baptised in another mainstream Christian church when he was three, but I never was a frequent church goer, mostly for christening or funerals. I actually always found it difficult to believe in the Bible, as I always prefered scientific explanations for everything in life. I have always been more of an agnostic. So it isa worry to listen to him when he tells me we come from Adam and Eve and I will burn in hell for not believing in Jesus as the only God. I am afraid I have been pushing him to study too much, and now he is at a uni, but also

Hi worried mum

It`s great that you`ve found this site - I am sure I speak for many others when I say that I wish my mum (and family )had been able to access the same posts and wonderful site that this is  when I joined  the revival group I did in 1984. Sadly I can really relate to so much of  what you are saying as I put my whole family through the same thing for many years - 20.

Thank God I finally saw the light and got out.

  My parents actually became catholics not long after I joined the crazy cult which really added fuel to the fire of intense doctrinal conversations as you can imagine!! 

I joined in my early 20`s after just receiving my degree after 4 years of study, lots of friends and a supportive family - everything going for me. The tactics they used were full of fear condemnation guilt and yeah again I say fear as all the talks(no rantings would be FAR more accurate) were about in the early 80`s in the assembly I was in were on imminent nuclear war. I am still trying to grapple with the fact that I actually got involved with such a dreadful organisation when all I was looking for was some spirituality .

My mother organised a priest to talk to me and also used every trick of  psychology on me she could muster up  -infact  any tactic she could come up with to dissuade me  she tried. I was so scared intimidated  in fear and indoctrinated by the constant rantings of the idiot that called himself a pastor that nothing she said to me was logical and I became antagonisitic to any conversations concerning  God, church etc......    Everytime these things  were brought up I could see that she was subtly trying to change my mind and I became defensive and got out my best Revival armour  we`d been belted over the head with.

So what I am trying to say is that it didn`t matter how effective her argument was - or logical or commonsensed or educated- I couldn`t see past my head of programmed ideas such was my indoctrination. In the end my family stopped having church and God discussions with me. I remember one time one of my sisters told me I was a self righteous little so and so.

That really hurt but I knew deep down she was probably right.

It is approximately 7 years since I`ve left the main assembly I was involved with that did all the damage and nearly 2 years since I left a splinter group who still had a lot of extremely controlling and misguided ideas. 

Life is so much better and making my own decision in 20... years is a new experience.  The transition is still happening but all in all it going well. This site has been so good and so helpful.

Only earlier this year did I find out that my younger sister also mentioned to my dad once ( probably about 10 years ago) `what are we going to do about her and that church (now they say cult!).? My dad said very wisely ` well you can`t do much - you just have to accept that that is the way  it is`. Wow such wisdom - probably from Catholicism - surely not?!!  That seems like a very laissez-faire approach - but you know what that`s all they could do in reality given that the nature of the cult is so overwhelming and soul destroying - I actually lost my personality for 19 and a half  years when I look back now. It is fantastic to be able to be myself again.

 So I agree whole heartedly with the other posters on here when they say you still need to be there for your son and don`t get into arguments - just be there for him. Try not as much as possible to get antagonistic - (extremely hard I know with the narrow judgemental ruthless and lack of compassion ways of that sect) . From my experience it is best to avoid the whole revival,church etc  subject as much as possible as it is only a breeding ground for more alienation from each other and that`s the last thing you want. 

Now that I am out ,I have a great relationship with all my family (as it was before I joined )and they are so GLAD to have me back. It did take a long time but it did happen. Don`t give up hope - and I reckon visualising where you want things to be is a positive thing to do and cuts down some of the worrying and negative energy.

I really wish you all lthe best and hope  you see turn things around. 

if you can`t stand the heat get out of the kitchen. I did and what a relief!!
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Re:Hi! Where Do I get help for my son?

Date Posted:21/08/2007 5:32 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : worriedmum

Hi all! I have been feeling very depressed lately. My son's become involved with Revival Fellowship. They come and take him to their church in Woodcroft every Sunday. He said he received a holy spirit last year and he spoke in tounges. He also goes to other meetings often and distributes door -to-door leaflets. We were baptised in another mainstream Christian church when he was three, but I never was a frequent church goer, mostly for christening or funerals. I actually always found it difficult to believe in the Bible, as I always prefered scientific explanations for everything in life. I have always been more of an agnostic. So it isa worry to listen to him when he tells me we come from Adam and Eve and I will burn in hell for not believing in Jesus as the only God. I am afraid I have been pushing him to study too much, and now he is at a uni, but also

Hi worried mum

It`s great that you`ve found this site - I am sure I speak for many others when I say that I wish my mum (and family )had been able to access the same posts and wonderful site that this is  when I joined  the revival group I did in 1984. Sadly I can really relate to so much of  what you are saying as I put my whole family through the same thing for many years - 20.

Thank God I finally saw the light and got out.

  My parents actually became catholics not long after I joined the crazy cult which really added fuel to the fire of intense doctrinal conversations as you can imagine!! 

I joined in my early 20`s after just receiving my degree after 4 years of study, lots of friends and a supportive family - everything going for me. The tactics they used were full of fear condemnation guilt and yeah again I say fear as all the talks(no rantings would be FAR more accurate) were about in the early 80`s in the assembly I was in were on imminent nuclear war. I am still trying to grapple with the fact that I actually got involved with such a dreadful organisation when all I was looking for was some spirituality .

My mother organised a priest to talk to me and also used every trick of  psychology on me she could muster up  -infact  any tactic she could come up with to dissuade me  she tried. I was so scared intimidated  in fear and indoctrinated by the constant rantings of the idiot that called himself a pastor that nothing she said to me was logical and I became antagonisitic to any conversations concerning  God, church etc......    Everytime these things  were brought up I could see that she was subtly trying to change my mind and I became defensive and got out my best Revival armour  we`d been belted over the head with.

So what I am trying to say is that it didn`t matter how effective her argument was - or logical or commonsensed or educated- I couldn`t see past my head of programmed ideas such was my indoctrination. In the end my family stopped having church and God discussions with me. I remember one time one of my sisters told me I was a self righteous little so and so.

That really hurt but I knew deep down she was probably right.

It is approximately 7 years since I`ve left the main assembly I was involved with that did all the damage and nearly 2 years since I left a splinter group who still had a lot of extremely controlling and misguided ideas. 

Life is so much better and making my own decision in 20... years is a new experience.  The transition is still happening but all in all it going well. This site has been so good and so helpful.

Only earlier this year did I find out that my younger sister also mentioned to my dad once ( probably about 10 years ago) `what are we going to do about her and that church (now they say cult!).? My dad said very wisely ` well you can`t do much - you just have to accept that that is the way  it is`. Wow such wisdom - probably from Catholicism - surely not?!!  That seems like a very laissez-faire approach - but you know what that`s all they could do in reality given that the nature of the cult is so overwhelming and soul destroying - I actually lost my personality for 19 and a half  years when I look back now. It is fantastic to be able to be myself again.

 So I agree whole heartedly with the other posters on here when they say you still need to be there for your son and don`t get into arguments - just be there for him. Try not as much as possible to get antagonistic - (extremely hard I know with the narrow judgemental ruthless and lack of compassion ways of that sect) . From my experience it is best to avoid the whole revival,church etc  subject as much as possible as it is only a breeding ground for more alienation from each other and that`s the last thing you want. 

Now that I am out ,I have a great relationship with all my family (as it was before I joined )and they are so GLAD to have me back. It did take a long time but it did happen. Don`t give up hope - and I reckon visualising where you want things to be is a positive thing to do and cuts down some of the worrying and negative energy.

I really wish you all lthe best and hope  you see turn things around. 

if you can`t stand the heat get out of the kitchen. I did and what a relief!!
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Re:Hi! Where Do I get help for my son?

Date Posted:22/08/2007 10:42 AMCopy HTML

Reply to singed but not destroyed.

Thank you for your post. I am learning here a lot. I just want to ask you. You mentioned that your mother used every possible psychological trick and also organised apriest to speak with.  Has she ever actually organised for you a psychologist? It was happening to you 20 years ago. Professionals were not aware of the problem then. These days professional help is available. Also, you were a grown up, independent adult. My son is still dependent on us.

I want to hear from parents, whose children are addicted to a religion. Is there a support group anywhere? There are in other states. If we don't have one, we should organise one.

If you attribute all your problems in life to God, and everything what you achieve in life to prayers, then you deprive yourself of a merit and deny yourself a chance of finding true causes of your problems and improving your present life and lives of the people around you. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Discover true Bible http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/inconsistencies.html
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Re:Hi! Where Do I get help for my son?

Date Posted:22/08/2007 5:15 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : worriedmum
My eldest son (then 19) twice almost lost his life in alcohol related incidents. He and his group of friends were all from religious backgrounds and from a church based college and they were inseparable, but a danger to themselves and others. When he later joined RCI/RF his lifestyle changed dramatically, to our great relief. The heavy drinking, smoking and marijuana use etc ended and he distanced himself from these infuences. During these years he was safer within the "confines" of RCI/RF.

While in RCI/RF and studying for a university degree some lectures clashed with one of the evening meetings - the atmosphere within the church turned icy. In time he began to question, not the bible, but the attitudes of control, legalism and elitism. He verbally fought with pastors, oversights and house leaders. When someone becomes a thorn in the pastors' side to this extent they just don't want you (it happens in other churches too) and you might as well go, so he and his wife left. No-one stopped them - they were free to go.

They have moved on now and rarely talk about their experience. His life could have been a lot worse or he might not have had a life. RCI/RF was a stepping stone that, looking at the positive, took him out of a destructive and unhealthy lifestyle and gave him a direction, which remains, with adjustments that are in perspective.

I hope that looking at this from another angle might help you - it isn't all bad. Please worriedmum, love your son unconditionally, pick him up from uni with a big smile, kiss him goodnight and laugh with him. Be positive, keep the lines of communication open and respect where he's at. Anything to the contrary might drive him from you. They can thrive on what they perceive as persecution. It is better to have him at home - AND WAIT PATIENTLY.
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Re:Hi! Where Do I get help for my son?

Date Posted:22/08/2007 7:29 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : Earthen Vessel


Reply to : worriedmumMy eldest son (then 19) twice almost lost his life in alcohol related incidents.

Good post Earthen , I could identify with your story, I also was the young man. I joined the RCI in 1981, now with the RF 26 years later 3 children all with the fellowship.

Does that mean we are excempt fro the scourge of the world or the question of drugs & alchahol? noway..But boy having God in your life and the ability to be led of his wonderful spirit, while knowing you have a covering of the blood of Jesus sure is better than what I knew and was a part of before and more than what my loving parents ever had to offer me for assurance hope and direction.

I'm with you earthen it's not that Gods  the problem it's the all the stuff that goes on , but don't dispare characters are formed out of fire.

it is the glory of God to conceal a matter but the honour of kings to search it out.
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Re:Hi! Where Do I get help for my son?

Date Posted:22/08/2007 9:15 PMCopy HTML

Drugs and alcohol was never a case for my son. One does not have to do it, so he can be saved in one of those so-called churches. And some teens still do it while they are taken to the churches. If you ask me, this religion is a form of a drug. And it is actually a very bad one. It cures just symptoms, not the cause. It numbs your emotional pain, gives you hope, that you will live eternally and may be you will be happy, if not in this life but in your afterlife. It deprives you an opportunity to address the present, the real life issues, thinking that we are immortal and it is not the purpose of our lives, that is  - to be happy in our present lives. You become a servant of God, the Bible, your pastors in the hope for the promised eternal life. You behave like a stupid donkey going after a carrot, I think, we are even more stupid, at least the donkey can see the carrot. No, I can't agree with you that going to RF is better than drugs, because religion is a drug.fficeffice" />

If you attribute all your problems in life to God, and everything what you achieve in life to prayers, then you deprive yourself of a merit and deny yourself a chance of finding true causes of your problems and improving your present life and lives of the people around you. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Discover true Bible http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/inconsistencies.html
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Re:Hi! Where Do I get help for my son?

Date Posted:22/08/2007 10:27 PMCopy HTML

religion = the opiate of the masses!
"for there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so" Shakespeare (Hamlet, Act 2, Scene 2)
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Re:Hi! Where Do I get help for my son?

Date Posted:23/08/2007 7:52 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : worriedmum

Drugs and alcohol was never a case for my son. One does not have to do it, so he can be saved in one of those so-called churches. And some teens still do it while they are taken to the churches. If you ask me, this religion is a form of a drug. And it is actually a very bad one. It cures just symptoms, not the cause. It numbs your emotional pain, gives you hope, that you will live eternally and may be you will be happy, if not in this life but in your afterlife. It deprives you an opportunity to address the present, the real life issues, thinking that we are immortal and it is not the purpose of our lives, that is- to be happy in our present lives. You become a servant of God, the Bible, your pastors i

MMMM. So what is the real problem worriedmum,

1/ Do you have a problem with God ? or is it

2/ the syle of Relgious institution.? If It's the institution what type of church would you be happy to see your son attend.?

it is the glory of God to conceal a matter but the honour of kings to search it out.
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Re:Hi! Where Do I get help for my son?

Date Posted:23/08/2007 5:25 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : worriedmum

Hi All!To the ADMIN. Can you tell me, please? I don't know how to hide my profile.To earth5. I did not know I could change my post, thanks for telling. If you still can check my profile, I think it says Adelaide. Even if I ever wanted to say Perth, I would probably do that to hide my identity, but then of course, what is the point, if I say my son goes to Woodcroft. Anyway, does it matter? Will you point a finger at me in Woodcroft ,if you guess, who we are? I am afraid, people from that centre may read my posts and use the information to their advantage. I don't know what to expect after reading some of the posts here. Will they encourage my son to leave home, leave his family? Even though he is a student and it would be very difficult for him to support himself. Anyway, the more I read the more I become worried. Are you offering help? What help

To Woprried Mum, My apologies , as said i may have read it wrong, Im of out in a min, but will read this thread tommorow and hopefully give you a much more considrered response

earth5

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Re:Hi! Where Do I get help for my son?

Date Posted:23/08/2007 5:50 PMCopy HTML

Definitely, I don't have a problem with God. Just recently I thought I believed in God. I definitely do not have a proof that God does not exist, no one does. I have a problem with religious institutions that abuse God and believers. They brainwash them, make them to believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God, the only Son of God, and take the Bible literally. They reinforce the archaic belief system: authority above servants, man over woman, and adults over children. And how does it all work for us? Do we never rebel? Do we never divorce? Are we leading a meaningful life? Would you prefer to have a meaningful life with each other and all the people around you, or a meaningful life with Jesus Christ, the existence of whom as the only God is very doubtful?

If you attribute all your problems in life to God, and everything what you achieve in life to prayers, then you deprive yourself of a merit and deny yourself a chance of finding true causes of your problems and improving your present life and lives of the people around you. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Discover true Bible http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/inconsistencies.html
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Re:Hi! Where Do I get help for my son?

Date Posted:24/08/2007 10:01 AMCopy HTML

Hi Again W/M

After reading all the post i have to agree with them Dog, Urchin, break free and others have all said it, you need to be there for your son, (easy said than done im sure) if you are trying to confront him and he talks to those in the "church"  the revers will get along side him whisper in his ear, tell him that you are an evil women and will happerly find a place for him to live, they will find him work if needed they will become his family.

Your best thing is to truley just be there for him, dont be confrontational it will  push him further away (win more flies with honey)

regardless of how many on here may dissagree it is not the worst place that he can be in (certainly not the best) however, he is not into drugs booze etc etc.

I suggest that Sea Urchin will proberly be of most help as she knows the woodcroft church inside out, if you want an alternative try the Edge church in Reynella, a great and safe church.

You mentioned that you still know there is a God, well pray to him, ask him to set your son free and to give you wisdom and dicernment in all of this, you have nothing to loose and maybe your son to gain.

Im sure this may all seem a bit trite, however dosent change the truth of what we are all trying to advise you, in the end it is your life and your son and you must do what you seem fit, you came on asking for help I believe that many have given you the best advice as we KNOW how that church opperates and the things they will do and say to keep you son entrapped, so please listen.

yours

earth5

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Re:Hi! Where Do I get help for my son?

Date Posted:24/08/2007 1:49 PMCopy HTML

I did take everyone's advice, I am not a fanatic. At the moment I think our relationship is improving. By the way, the job that RF found for him was crap! I found a much better job for him and then he found another one, thanks to his education, not the Bible studies! That is what really matters in life!
If you attribute all your problems in life to God, and everything what you achieve in life to prayers, then you deprive yourself of a merit and deny yourself a chance of finding true causes of your problems and improving your present life and lives of the people around you. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Discover true Bible http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/inconsistencies.html
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Re:Hi! Where Do I get help for my son?

Date Posted:24/08/2007 1:55 PMCopy HTML

"Drugs and alcohol was never the case for my son. One does not have to do it to be saved in one of those so called churches........You become the servant of God, the Bible, your pastors..........No I can"t agree with you that going to RF is better than drugs because religion is a drug."

Reply to Worriedmum.

In your frustration and concern for your son you might come across as more controlling than the church he's in. We can't force our grown children to do everything we want. He could be a lot worse off than going to church even though we don;t like it.

I, personally, dislike RF form of church government. In a practical sense, they underemphasize the fundamental of love, humility, trust, care and pure praise and worship and heavily use scriptural references relating to chastisement, reproof, rebuke and correction to their full capacity. It seems the higher they climb in the management the more this becomes aparent. However there are still some fantactic pastors in the lower ranks of RF - although they must be careful not to outshine the chief pastors. If only the top could be skimmed of !!! Replaced by Jesus Christ.
Your son will see this in time, as many do, and leave (the door is open to the dissatisfied) Others overlook and soldier on regardless. In all conscience though, there are far too many good people within RF for me to classify it as all bad. The people are the church - it's the methods adopted by the management which is at fault.
In my post 21/8/07, I think you missed my point. I was giving an example, not inferring that self destgructive behaviour has to be a prerequisite to being saved in RF, or any other church (although it is a good incentive). Most people are genuinely searching for God and they are from many different beckgrounds and persuasions. They are the good, the bad and the just plain unlucky, but something good usually results. I would not wish for anyone to go back to a bad lifestyle - or even mix it a bit. That and christianity are incompatable.

Please don't let your frustration make you do anything impulsive. Make a list of your concerns, give it to your son at an appropriate time and leave it open for calm and rational discussion.



I follow God only, through Jesus Christ, and by the power of His Holy Spirit I know that His Word is truth)
Uncoolman Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #32
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Re:Hi! Where Do I get help for my son?

Date Posted:24/08/2007 3:37 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : worriedmum

I did takeeveryone's advice, I am not a fanatic. At the moment I think our relationship is improving. By the way, the job that RF found for him was crap! I found a much better job for him and then he found another one, thanks to his education, not the Bible studies! That is what really matters in life!

not sure I agree with you re what matters, however thats the beauty of this forum we can all have our opinions

e5

Didaktikon Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #33
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Re:Hi! Where Do I get help for my son?

Date Posted:29/08/2007 11:44 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : worriedmum

Hi, 'WM'.

Definitely, I don't have a problem with God.

Sure. If you say so. I've just finished reading all your posts, and the conclusion that I've drawn is this: you claim not to have a problem with God, but you certainly do appear to have a problem with Christianity.

Just recently I thought I believed in God. I definitely do not have a proof that God does not exist, no one does. I have a problem with religious institutions that abuse God and believers.

Well, I think your problem is much broader than simply the 'institutions'. In several posts that you've made to date, you've attempted to lambast the philosophies and the belief systems that underpin said institutions. In other words, your issues seem to run a little deeper than simply the politics of 'religion'.

They brainwash them, make them to believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God, the only Son of God, and take the Bible literally.

The 'brainwash' thing is a bit of a 'stretch', if you ask me. In any case, clearly you're far more comfortable with the priests of the Modern age (the scientists) brainwashing your kids to believe that Jesus Christ isn't the Son of God

They reinforce the archaic belief system: authority above servants, man over woman, and adults over children.

You reckon? To apply your analogy a little further, this same 'archaic' belief system also promotes the authority of society, the government and the legal system over the authority of the individual. Do you have issues with this, or does your preference run to anarchy? Then there's the fact that the very same 'archaic' belief system is what led to the relatively modern notion that all people are created equal--irrespective of race, gender, religion or creed--and so are entitled to the protection of, application of, impartial justice. In fact, were it not for this 'archaic' belief system, you'd likely as not be wearing a veil, be completely housebound and thoroughly subserviant to the implacable whim and will of your husband

And how does it all work for us? Do we never rebel? Do we never divorce? Are we leading a meaningful life?

It seems to work quite well for me and mine. Obviously I can't speak for you.

Would you prefer to have a meaningful life with each other and all the people around you, or a meaningful life with Jesus Christ, the existence of whom as the only God is very doubtful?

Why can't one have both? Why must it be the one or the other (a thoroughly false dichotomy). And, for what it's worth, I think the 'proofs' for the existence of God are far more compelling than you give them credit being.

In summary, 'WM', try opening your mind a little more, and closing it a little less. You may then find the vista breathtaking!

Blessings,

Ian

email: didaktikon@gmail.com
worriedmum Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #34
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Re:Hi! Where Do I get help for my son?

Date Posted:30/08/2007 6:25 PMCopy HTML

Hi Didaktikon

Definitely, I don't have a problem with God.

Sure. If you say so. I've just finished reading all your posts, and the conclusion that I've drawn is this: you claim not to have a problem with God, but you certainly do appear to have a problem with Christianity.

Certainly, since I started reading the Bible. Where the Bible starts-the common sense ends.


Just recently I thought I believed in God. I definitely do not have a proof that God does not exist, no one does. I have a problem with religious institutions that abuse God and believers.

Well, I think your problem is much broader than simply the 'institutions'. In several posts that you've made to date, you've attempted to lambast the philosophies and the belief systems that underpin said institutions. In other words, your issues seem to run a little deeper than simply the politics of 'religion'.

 

Can you be more specific please? Which beliefs do you have in mind? My issues may be running a bit deeper, because I understand where the "babies' are coming from.

They brainwash them, make them to believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God, the only Son of God, and take the Bible literally.

The 'brainwash' thing is a bit of a 'stretch', if you ask me. In any case, clearly you're far more comfortable with the priests of the Modern age (the scientists) brainwashing your kids to believe that Jesus Christ isn't the Son of God

 

O heck? Why would they need to do that? Brainwashing needed to overcome the common sense. 

I don't know where you have met the brainwashing scientists, but my experience is that they prefer to keep an open mind, they teach us that we do not have a proof that God does not exist, and rather we have some evidence that inclines us to think we developed from apes. So forth, we keep looking for more evidence and able to change the theory according to the new findings. What do you, believers do? The Bible has not changed in 2000 years! (That is what priests say, anyway). It still teaches us that Earth is flat; that we come from Adam and Eve and denies that there may be an evolution. For God's sake! My little pine bush almost turned into a cactus last summer because it was so dry! It did not die< it evolved. Did God make those thorns to grow instead of pine? Oh, may be! If nature is God. You need to study botanic to understand why. Have you? Do you have another explanation to it apart from "God made those thorns to grow"?


They reinforce the archaic belief system: authority above servants, man over woman, and adults over children.

You reckon? To apply your analogy a little further, this same 'archaic' belief system also promotes the authority of society, the government and the legal system over the authority of the individual. Do you have issues with this, or does your preference run to anarchy? Then there's the fact that the very same 'archaic' belief system is what led to the relatively modern notion that all people are created equal--irrespective of race, gender, religion or creed--and so are entitled to the protection of, application of, impartial justice. In fact, were it not for this 'archaic' belief system, you'd likely as not be wearing a veil, be completely housebound and thoroughly subservient to the implacable whim and will of your husband

 

Are you serious? You don't really want to talk politics with me, do you? It may spoil your appetite. No, I don't prefer anarchy. I value social order.  Are you familiar with any other types of governance, apart from anarchy and authoritarian, or does everything look black and white in your life? Can you be reciprocal and tell us about your political preference now? Let me guess, monarchy? No, you like, hopefully, as I do, our democratic state, even though our democracy is in a miserable condition under the current government. If you'd have travelled enough, as much as I did, and were interested in other countries, cultures and religions, you would have come to the conclusion, that it is NOT the religion that makes up a democracy, it is a culture. The heritage of it since the Roman Republic is the precursor to our democratic state; Western culture is the foundation, not our common religion. The age of Christianity is about 2000 years. What is the age of our democratic state?

 

There is a difference between norms, morals and the Laws of any given society. They should not be confused. Religion has nothing to do with it. It depends on how the current government decides to interpret it, how the society decides to follow it.  Religion is dangerous in a case, when the Bible is told to be interpreted literally, contrary to the society's norms, morals and laws. (As in the case of RF, I would like to know if they broke any laws.) We should remember that there are a lot of people in this country, who say they are Christians, but all they remember from the Bible is the Ten Commandments if not less, as they have not opened the Bible in years, they don't know the Bible. They usually follow our society's norms, morals and laws. I would prefer my son to be between them.


I hypothesise, if there happens to be another war, it will be Christians against Muslims, and if we win, prohibition of incest and paedophilia will be considered an old doctrine, as we will need to populate the Earth again. So the hard core future Christian government will turn to the Bible again and say: look, this is what the Bible teaches us, it is OK! (a little grim, and I am feeling cynical)

Religion is Hypocrisy.


And how does it all work for us? Do we never rebel? Do we never divorce? Are we leading a meaningful life?

It seems to work quite well for me and mine. Obviously I can't speak for you.

 

Good on you. Are you a priest?

Would you prefer to have a meaningful life with each other and all the people around you, or a meaningful life with Jesus Christ, the existence of whom as the only God is very doubtful?

Why can't one have both? Why must it be the one or the other (a thoroughly false dichotomy).

Probably, when religion becomes an addiction, we cant. It looks like you are not in RF anyway, are you?

 

 And, for what it's worth, I think the 'proofs' for the existence of God are far more compelling than you give them credit being.
In summary, 'WM', try opening your mind a little more, and closing it a little less.

Been there, done that. It is your turn. What are your proofs for the existence of God? I am keen to hear.

 

 You may then find the vista breathtaking!

There is death! Live a happy life right now!

If you attribute all your problems in life to God, and everything what you achieve in life to prayers, then you deprive yourself of a merit and deny yourself a chance of finding true causes of your problems and improving your present life and lives of the people around you. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Discover true Bible http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/inconsistencies.html
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Re:Hi! Where Do I get help for my son?

Date Posted:31/08/2007 6:44 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : worriedmum



The heritage of it since the Roman Republic is the precursor to our democratic state; Western culture is the foundation, not our common religion. The age of Christianity is about 2000 years. What is the age of our democratic state?






Great post, worried mum. That gives me food for thought.To the library, I go!

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Re:Hi! Where Do I get help for my son?

Date Posted:31/08/2007 2:40 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : worriedmum

Did you phone a friend on this one?, cause I'm off to do some reading as well!!!! very interesting.
it is the glory of God to conceal a matter but the honour of kings to search it out.
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Re:Hi! Where Do I get help for my son?

Date Posted:02/09/2007 9:22 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : worriedmum

Good morning, 'WM'.

I hope you don't mind if I respond to your latest series of points?

Definitely, I don't have a problem with God.

Sure. If you say so. I've just finished reading all your posts, and the conclusion that I've drawn is this: you claim not to have a problem with God, but you certainly do appear to have a problem with Christianity.

Certainly, since I started reading the Bible. Where the Bible starts-the common sense ends.

Since you started, huh? When was that, last Tuesday?

Just recently I thought I believed in God. I definitely do not have a proof that God does not exist, no one does. I have a problem with religious institutions that abuse God and believers.

Well, I think your problem is much broader than simply the 'institutions'. In several posts that you've made to date, you've attempted to lambast the philosophies and the belief systems that underpin said institutions. In other words, your issues seem to run a little deeper than simply the politics of 'religion'.

Can you be more specific please? Which beliefs do you have in mind? My issues may be running a bit deeper, because I understand where the "babies' are coming from.

Sure. My comment related to the fact that your claim, when you first arrived here, was that you were concerned with the RF as an institution, and the effects that such was having on your son. However, it didn't take very long for you to direct your condemnation more broadly, away from the RF specifically, and to Christianity more generally. This presents as being your actual intention, all along.

They brainwash them, make them to believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God, the only Son of God, and take the Bible literally.

The 'brainwash' thing is a bit of a 'stretch', if you ask me. In any case, clearly you're far more comfortable with the priests of the Modern age (the scientists) brainwashing your kids to believe that Jesus Christ isn't the Son of God.

O heck? Why would they need to do that? Brainwashing needed to overcome the common sense.

Do tell.

I don't know where you have met the brainwashing scientists, but my experience is that they prefer to keep an open mind, they teach us that we do not have a proof that God does not exist, and rather we have some evidence that inclines us to think we developed from apes.

Are you serious? Are you honestly suggesting that 'science' has kept an open mind on the issue of origins? If you are, then I can only suggest that you are grossly misinformed of the facts as widely reported in the scientific literature (both technical and popular).

So forth, we keep looking for more evidence and able to change the theory according to the new findings. What do you, believers do? The Bible has not changed in 2000 years! (That is what priests say, anyway). It still teaches us that Earth is flat; that we come from Adam and Eve and denies that there may be an evolution. For God's sake!

The Bible hasn't changed in 2,000 years? So? If it adequately represents 'truth', why would it need revision? After all 'truth', by its very definition, is absolute. Moving on, Scripture doesn't teach that the earth is flat, what it does do; however, is use phenomenological language. As do we, in the 'enlightened' 21st century And further, 'science' also presents the idea that modern humanity descended from a single 'mother', one referred to--surprise, surprise--as 'Eve' in much of the literature. They do so because of relatively recent studies into the structure of mitochondrial DNA. And to correct yet another of your misinformed and erroneous conclusions, Christian faith doesn't ipso facto, require one to 'disbelieve' in certain theories of evolution. Why? Well, the focus of the Christian faith is towards the source of life, rather than towards the supposed process.

My little pine bush almost turned into a cactus last summer because it was so dry! It did not die it evolved.

And here's me thinking that your neglected pine bush was still a pine bush, and that in spite of the prevailing conditions!

Did God make those thorns to grow instead of pine? Oh, may be! If nature is God. You need to study botanic to understand why. Have you? Do you have another explanation to it apart from "God made those thorns to grow"?

I'll be honest here: I'm having a very hard time taking you seriously at this point. I'm sure any botanist worth her salt would tell you that your little pine bush didn't 'evolve' into being 'almost a cactus' last summer at all

They reinforce the archaic belief system: authority above servants, man over woman, and adults over children.

You reckon? To apply your analogy a little further, this same 'archaic' belief system also promotes the authority of society, the government and the legal system over the authority of the individual. Do you have issues with this, or does your preference run to anarchy? Then there's the fact that the very same 'archaic' belief system is what led to the relatively modern notion that all people are created equal--irrespective of race, gender, religion or creed--and so are entitled to the protection of, application of, impartial justice. In fact, were it not for this 'archaic' belief system, you'd likely as not be wearing a veil, be completely housebound and thoroughly subservient to the implacable whim and will of your husband.

Are you serious? You don't really want to talk politics with me, do you? It may spoil your appetite.

Well it might prove more informative than trying to discuss theology, science and sociology with you

No, I don't prefer anarchy. I value social order. Are you familiar with any other types of governance, apart from anarchy and authoritarian, or does everything look black and white in your life?

I think, in your haste to spoil for a 'fight', that you've completely missed my point.

Can you be reciprocal and tell us about your political preference now? Let me guess, monarchy? No, you like, hopefully, as I do, our democratic state, even though our democracy is in a miserable condition under the current government.

Well, you're partially correct: I'm not a monarchist. As for the other 'jibe', 'yes', I fully understand why you believe our democracy has gone to 'hell-in-a-handcart' under our democratically elected government. Lowest unemployment levels in decades, highest budget surpluses in decades...

If you'd have travelled enough, as much as I did, and were interested in other countries, cultures and religions, you would have come to the conclusion, that it is NOT the religion that makes up a democracy, it is a culture.

Lady, you just might be surprised at some of the places that I've 'traveled' to, the cultures and religions that I've experienced at first hand, and the impact that they've had on their respective societies

The heritage of it since the Roman Republic is the precursor to our democratic state; Western culture is the foundation, not our common religion. The age of Christianity is about 2000 years. What is the age of our democratic state?

About 400 years. Tops.

There is a difference between norms, morals and the Laws of any given society. They should not be confused. Religion has nothing to do with it.

I think with a little more research that you'll find that you're thoroughly mistaken on this score.

It depends on how the current government decides to interpret it, how the society decides to follow it.

Actually, 'not really'. Cultures are the result of 'process', not necessarily 'progress' (one of the tenets of the discipline of Social Anthropolgy). For example, whilst one might change a law, enforcing the same will prove problematic when such goes against the grain of cultural bias. And Western culture, don't forget, is based on the Judeo-Christian ethic; something not even the assured results of the Enlightenment has been able to erase

Religion is dangerous in a case, when the Bible is told to be interpreted literally, contrary to the society's norms, morals and laws. (As in the case of RF, I would like to know if they broke any laws.) We should remember that there are a lot of people in this country, who say they are Christians, but all they remember from the Bible is the Ten Commandments if not less, as they have not opened the Bible in years, they don't know the Bible.

Yes. But do you know the Bible sufficiently well enough to be making the claims and the judgments that you have. Personally, I'm not convinced that you are.

I hypothesise, if there happens to be another war, it will be Christians against Muslims, and if we win, prohibition of incest and paedophilia will be considered an old doctrine, as we will need to populate the Earth again.

Do tell. For starters, wars are waged by nation States nowadays, and not by religious orders. Further, genetically-speaking, the target population required to sustain genetic diversity in humans is sufficiently small enough that incest will never be required. And as for paedophilia, well,I'd suggest that you get your hands on a copy of the DSM IV-TR, and read what it has to say on this psychological disorder!

So the hard core future Christian government will turn to the Bible again and say: look, this is what the Bible teaches us, it is OK! (a little grim, and I am feeling cynical).

Is that so? And just 'what' does the Bible teach on the subject, pray tell?

Religion is Hypocrisy.

No, 'hypocrisy' is hypocrisy whether religion is involved or not.

And how does it all work for us? Do we never rebel? Do we never divorce? Are we leading a meaningful life?

It seems to work quite well for me and mine. Obviously I can't speak for you.

Good on you. Are you a priest?

Nope. Just an informed Christian with an open mind, one who has managed to raise two informed Christian daughters who also have open minds

Would you prefer to have a meaningful life with each other and all the people around you, or a meaningful life with Jesus Christ, the existence of whom as the only God is very doubtful?

Why can't one have both? Why must it be the one or the other (a thoroughly false dichotomy).

Probably, when religion becomes an addiction, we cant.

What absolute nonsense. If your son really has fallen prey to the RF, then likely as not such happened because he was raised in an environment that was completely arid when it came to spiritual issues. Consequently, like your little pine bush, he 'evolved' into a thorny RF-er!

It looks like you are not in RF anyway, are you?

Nope.

And, for what it's worth, I think the 'proofs' for the existence of God are far more compelling than you give them credit being. In summary, 'WM', try opening your mind a little more, and closing it a little less.

Been there, done that.

So you prefer narrow-mindedness and ignorance to the alternative, huh? Okay, your choice.

It is your turn. What are your proofs for the existence of God? I am keen to hear.

Where would you like me start? Philosophical? Epistemological? Phenomenological? Ethical?

You may then find the vista breathtaking!

There is death! Live a happy life right now!

Ah, yes! The catch-cry: "inorance is bliss!" The rejoinder to which is: "sure, but it ain't eternal!"

'WM', you're not half as well-informed as you believe yourself to be.

Blessings,

Ian
email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:Hi! Where Do I get help for my son?

Date Posted:02/09/2007 11:01 AMCopy HTML

You know I am so tired. I am so tired of hitting this brick wall of your bigotry. I don't really care how much democracy we have in this country. All I care is my son. I remember a few years ago he came from school and told me that some people brought some bibles to the school and than he saw some kids were burning them in the school oval. I told him that it is not nice thing to do to burn books, it is disrespectful of Christian religion, and it reminds of dark ages when science books were burnt. Now I found out, he picked up a bible and started reading it then. Another day he was showing me a u-tube funny video with Jesus singing the song "I will survive" where in the end he gets hit by a bus. I told him it was not funny and it was blasphemy. How I regret it now that I did not educate him well enough about Christianity. This same religion, cult, sect, whatever, I don't care anymore, how you want to call yourself, that is breaking down my family. It is breaking me down emotionally and physically to see my son becoming a fanatic, not being able to think critically anymore, disregarding the family due to his church commitments. I hate all his conspiracy, I hate his church people, and they are taking my son away from me. I cry so much these days, I can't go to work anymore, it is affecting my relationship with my husband. And my son is so afraid of death. That is very useful. Being a donkey with a carrot. You just follow the carrot, may be you ll be saved, and you cant see anything around you anymore, just "the carrot".  I am not afraid of death. I almost died twice. When you become so sick that you are so close to death you don't care about anything anymore. You are not scared anymore. All you want is just end of your suffering. Does not matter how. My son is so young; his adult life is just starting. I feel so sorry for him that he has gone into that direction. His life is going to be wasted in RF.

 

If you attribute all your problems in life to God, and everything what you achieve in life to prayers, then you deprive yourself of a merit and deny yourself a chance of finding true causes of your problems and improving your present life and lives of the people around you. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Discover true Bible http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/inconsistencies.html
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Re:Hi! Where Do I get help for my son?

Date Posted:02/09/2007 11:53 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : worriedmum

Once again, 'WM'.

You know I am so tired. I am so tired of hitting this brick wall of your bigotry.

My bigotry, huh? Thus far it's been you and you alone who has been playing the religious bigot; I've simply been attempting to educate you a little better with respect to the facts of the matter currently under discussion.

I don't really care how much democracy we have in this country. All I care is my son. I remember a few years ago he came from school and told me that some people brought some bibles to the school and than he saw some kids were burning them in the school oval. I told him that it is not nice thing to do to burn books, it is disrespectful of Christian religion, and it reminds of dark ages when science books were burnt. Now I found out, he picked up a bible and started reading it then.

It sounds like he took your advice then, and showed a little respect for the religion. Pardon me for saying so, but you could probably learn a bit from him in this regard

Another day he was showing me a u-tube funny video with Jesus singing the song "I will survive" where in the end he gets hit by a bus. I told him it was not funny and it was blasphemy. How I regret it now that I did not educate him well enough about Christianity.

Given what you've presented so far, I seriously doubt that you would have been capable of doing so. In any case I find it remarkable that you believe it's blasphemy when your son rubbishes Christianity, but 'concerned parenthood' when you do it. That's a little inconsistent, don't you think?

This same religion, cult, sect, whatever, I don't care anymore, how you want to call yourself, that is breaking down my family.

No it's not. It's intolerance which is 'breaking down' your family. Intolerance on your part with respect to Christianity, and intolerance on your son's part with respect to non-RF Christianity.

It is breaking me down emotionally and physically to see my son becoming a fanatic, not being able to think critically anymore, disregarding the family due to his church commitments.

Well to be honest, I've not seen a lot of 'critical thinking' on your part thus far either. But just perhaps your son is distancing himself from you because you've been overly keen to 'critically' condemn his beliefs? Unfortunately, you're unable to counter his proffered aberration of Christianity (i.e. RF dogma) with the 'real-deal'; instead, you've been hitting back with error of another sort. And your son probably 'believes' enough now to disregard completely any attack that you might care to deliver against his new 'faith' and his new 'values'. In summary, your problem isn't with the authentic Christian faith, it's with the inauthentic RF alternative. And speaking from personal experience, the chances of countering the former are greatly improved when one has ready access to the latter.

I hate all his conspiracy, I hate his church people, and they are taking my son away from me. I cry so much these days, I can't go to work anymore, it is affecting my relationship with my husband. And my son is so afraid of death. That is very useful. Being a donkey with a carrot. You just follow the carrot, may be you ll be saved, and you cant see anything around you anymore, just "the carrot".

Of course. The problem again, however, isn't with Christianity. It's with the RF 'version' that your son has swallowed far too quickly. Now let's be brutally honest for moment: what compelling alternative do you have to offer him? A naive and shallow view of 'scientific naturalism'?

I am not afraid of death. I almost died twice. When you become so sick that you are so close to death you don't care about anything anymore. You are not scared anymore. All you want is just end of your suffering. Does not matter how. My son is so young; his adult life is just starting. I feel so sorry for him that he has gone into that direction. His life is going to be wasted in RF.

I suppose that in the end, then, your son isn't really all that different to you in this respect.

M'tassal.

Ian
email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:Hi! Where Do I get help for my son?

Date Posted:02/09/2007 3:24 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : worriedmum

worriedmum, I'm really heartbroken and sympathetic to your situation and I hoped you'd got a handle on my last private message but I have to be really blunt here... like others have been. Sometimes when you try to help someone who's in a frantic state they kick and attack whoever comes near them. Surf -lifesavers get this all the time and that's what it feels like.

LIke it or not (and I'm sure it's not) your son has descended head over heals into the Christian world. You need to get a grip and an understanding of that world if you've got any hope of reaching your son. This may be hypocritical of me to say, but you've got to assemble some sort of 'respect' for Christendom and not dwell on the overly negative aspects of it. As I've said, it's very doubtful any magic programming is going to deconvert your son from his current schema into yours.

The best thing you've got is people like Ian who are able to find the flaws in their doctrine and the chinks in their plastic armour. arguing with Ian and others about the credibility of Christianity and religion is counter effective. I must say, I've developed an understanding of that now while watching you kick and scream at all the wrong people. I got bored unpacking Revivalism and then I started on Christianity out of boredom i think. it was a mistake.

You need to get some perspective. You're throwing stones at the very people who can provide you help with your son. We know exactly how he's thinking and the mindset he is adopting.

[LINK SiteName=Mothrust: Movies and Modern Myth Target=_blank]http://aintchristian.blogspot.com.au/[/LINK] Be nice, for everyone that you meet is fighting a harder battle - Anita Roddick
worriedmum Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #41
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Re:Hi! Where Do I get help for my son?

Date Posted:02/09/2007 6:44 PMCopy HTML

Who, Didaktikon? Pfoo ..He can't even present his argument; all he does is attacking my views without any supporting evidence. I would not trust one fanatic to another. Anyway, what could he do? Convert my son  into Catholicism? I don't trust him, I think he is not Australian, if he was he would not attack me for neglecting my garden! Ha-ha-ha!

 

 The Creation Museum was opened in USA. in May 2007. The museum presents an account of the origins of the universe, life, mankind, and man's early history according to a literal reading of the book of Genesis. Its exhibits assert that the planet is just a few thousand years old and that man and dinosaurs once coexisted, a view which disagrees with over 99% of the scientists in relevant fields who accept that the Earth is approximately 4.5 billion years old, and that the dinosaurs became extinct 65.5 million years before human beings arose.

 

Religion is an excellent mean for social cohesion and  social control, group think. I guess, at times for struggle for the energy resourses,  spreading  the doctrine means to ensure social control for the times of war. I am just wondering, how USA will justify an attack on Russia (Russia has the biggest unused oil pool to this moment), because they are also christians.

Beware people, Dark Ages are coming back. It came to my door step already.

 

If you attribute all your problems in life to God, and everything what you achieve in life to prayers, then you deprive yourself of a merit and deny yourself a chance of finding true causes of your problems and improving your present life and lives of the people around you. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Discover true Bible http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/inconsistencies.html
MothandRust Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #42
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Re:Hi! Where Do I get help for my son?

Date Posted:02/09/2007 8:19 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : worriedmum

Who, Didaktikon? Pfoo ..He can't even present his argument; all he does is attacking my views without any supporting evidence. I would not trust one fanatic to another. Anyway, what could he do? Convert my son  into Catholicism?

The lessor of two evils? I would take Catholicism any day, but then there are extremes in there as well. At least they don't enforce their views on you like the ilk of Revivalism. You can miss a heap of Sunday meetings and not get the dreaded phonecall... (erm, we've noticed you've missed three meetings without letting anyone know where you are?)

I don't trust him, I think he is not Australian, if he was he would not attack me for neglecting my garden! Ha-ha-ha!

 

Well good luck then Mrs Mum. Hard to know who to trust isn't it? Trust should be earned and given some time to develop. Not many here are sure they should trust you. Not much more I can say to help... I hope you develop a relationship with your son in due course and that he is able to shake off the staunch legalistic dogma that will become saturate him unless he wakes up a little.

 

 The Creation Museum was opened in USA. in May 2007. The museum presents an account of the origins of the universe, life, mankind, and man's early history according to a literal reading of the book of Genesis. Its exhibits assert that the planet is just a few thousand years old and that man and dinosaurs once coexisted, a view which disagrees with over 99% of the scientists in relevant fields who accept that the Earth is approximately 4.5 billion years old, and that the dinosaurs became extinct 65.5 million years before human beings arose.

 

Even Revivalists know that the young earth crap in Ken Ham's Creation Museum is a lot of bunk. Bringing that up here is useless and now I question your motives for being here. Probably preferable if you do the Christian bashing in the Ex-Christian  discussion thread. I'll be happy to join you there, but I've already said all about the stupid Museum as I've wanted to on my Blog

Religion is an excellent mean for social cohesion and  social control, group think. I guess, at times for struggle for the energy resourses,  spreading  the doctrine means to ensure social control for the times of war. I am just wondering, how USA will justify an attack on Russia (Russia has the biggest unused oil pool to this moment), because they are also christians. Beware people, Dark Ages are coming back. It came to my door step already.

 

Even if we have evolved as a creatures out of the slime billions of years ago, it would seem that our collective minds, over time, thought it only best and right to control our numbers with war and religion. I'm not saying either is right and one could easily wipe us out.. but... meh, that's just the way it is. We can fight it and get minor victories but it'll be the same in a hundred years.

[LINK SiteName=Mothrust: Movies and Modern Myth Target=_blank]http://aintchristian.blogspot.com.au/[/LINK] Be nice, for everyone that you meet is fighting a harder battle - Anita Roddick
Sea Urchin Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #43
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Re:Hi! Where Do I get help for my son?

Date Posted:02/09/2007 8:31 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : worriedmum

 

Dear worriedmum,

I am writing this as a mother who loves her children to another mother who loves her son; 

I am wondering if perhaps your son is your only child and you love him so much that you cannot let him go and just live life the way HE wants to.  I am certainly not saying that it is good that he is at RF but that he needs to be given the freedom to choose how he wants to live his life. If you smother him and try to dictate to him how he should live his life and what he should believe etc, you may end up losing him completely from your life. Remember, he won't always be financially dependant on you and you won't always be able to control his actions.  I have seen so many families broken up by not only organisations such as RF but also because of people that need to control other people. If you truly love your son, you will let him live his life the way he chooses but he needs to know that you will always be there for him IF and WHEN he needs you. The love that a mother has for her children should be unconditional - no conditions attached to it at all e.g. WHATEVER they do, we do not love them any less. We may not always LIKE what they do (their actions) but we will always LOVE them.

We need to be aware of the danger of becoming  'controlling'  parents in much the same way as the RF being a controlling group.  I don't agree with what my eldest daughter believes, but I show tolerance and acceptance of her as an adult and love her dearly. I may not always LIKE what she does but I LOVE her. If we let our differences of opinions (e.g. whether we believe in God or not) separate us from each other, we lose the respect and love that a mother and son/daughter should always have for each other.

Love, Urchin

Your unfailing love, O Lord, is as vast as the heavens; your faithfulness reaches beyond the clouds. Your righteousness is like the mighty mountains, your justice like the ocean depths.
Didaktikon Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #44
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Re:Hi! Where Do I get help for my son?

Date Posted:03/09/2007 8:15 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : worriedmum

'Worriedmum',

Well, I understand now why your son won't have a bar of your nonsense! Lady, there are two basic kinds of ignorance in this world: simple ignorance, and willful ignorance. Sadly, your son falls under the first sort with his recent foray into the unbiblical rot which is Revivalism. Sadder still, however, is the fact that you fall into the second category. You don't even know that you don't know; or perhaps it's more case of not wanting to know that you don't know?

Cheers,

Ian
email: didaktikon@gmail.com
worriedmum Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #45
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Re:Hi! Where Do I get help for my son?

Date Posted:03/09/2007 4:00 PMCopy HTML

 

'simple ignorance, and willful ignorance

Didaktikon, these are the only good words that you've learned from the atheists and the like. There is not even a point for me talking to you.

I punished and blamed myself enough for letting this happen to my son.

My thread started with a statement that I was not against any religion and ended with  "I hate RF". What a great development!

Yesterday, there was another argument, I was crying again and my son started to cry too. He said, if you are so worried about me, why don't you pray for me.

I agree with you, Mothandrust, you don't know how much I agree. This is not going anywhere.

If you attribute all your problems in life to God, and everything what you achieve in life to prayers, then you deprive yourself of a merit and deny yourself a chance of finding true causes of your problems and improving your present life and lives of the people around you. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Discover true Bible http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/inconsistencies.html
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Re:Hi! Where Do I get help for my son?

Date Posted:03/09/2007 4:24 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : worriedmum

Sorry, 'Worriedmum', but it's clear that you have more axes to grind then you have files with which to grind them

Sayonata zo,

Ian
email: didaktikon@gmail.com
worriedmum Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #47
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Re:Hi! Where Do I get help for my son?

Date Posted:03/09/2007 6:28 PMCopy HTML

Unfortunately, even if my son wanted to leave the church he would be afraid to do so. I can see how scared he is. Also he is afraid to leave home and his family for good. I think he would go to another church if only he knew which one. Which church can I suggest to him?
If you attribute all your problems in life to God, and everything what you achieve in life to prayers, then you deprive yourself of a merit and deny yourself a chance of finding true causes of your problems and improving your present life and lives of the people around you. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Discover true Bible http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/inconsistencies.html
MothandRust Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #48
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Re:Hi! Where Do I get help for my son?

Date Posted:03/09/2007 6:59 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : worriedmum

 I think he would go to another church if only he knew which one. Which church can I suggest to him?

Holy Crapoli! Now there's a loaded question!!!  

More loaded than seven bullets in a six-shooter.

[LINK SiteName=Mothrust: Movies and Modern Myth Target=_blank]http://aintchristian.blogspot.com.au/[/LINK] Be nice, for everyone that you meet is fighting a harder battle - Anita Roddick
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Re:Hi! Where Do I get help for my son?

Date Posted:03/09/2007 7:23 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : worriedmum

Unfortunately, even if my son wanted to leave the church he would be afraid to do so. I can see how scared he is. Also he is afraid to leave home and his family for good. I think he would go to another church if only he knew which one. Which church can I suggest to him?

 A community based Christian orthodox congregation would be far better than where he is at the moment.  May I suggest PM Sea Urchin, she seems happy in the "Edge Church" after coming out of RF. I believe you are in the Adelaide area, yes?

But even so, you both need to have a little understanding of  what is Christianity according to the Bible, so that your son won't come out and fall into the same situation he is in.  You have already displayed an ability to read and find out things. Several times now on this forum it has been suggested you start in "Please Consider". Be positive, get real, and give it a go. It got me going again.

worriedmum Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #50
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Re:Hi! Where Do I get help for my son?

Date Posted:04/09/2007 10:08 AMCopy HTML

I looked at the Edge website.

It says , Edge Church City is located in the former Investigator Science and Technology building.

So, it 's closed. Quite symbolic, don't you think?

If you attribute all your problems in life to God, and everything what you achieve in life to prayers, then you deprive yourself of a merit and deny yourself a chance of finding true causes of your problems and improving your present life and lives of the people around you. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Discover true Bible http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/inconsistencies.html
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