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Didaktikon
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Date Posted:01/07/2009 1:02 AMCopy HTML

All,

Quite a few people who frequent this site have found considerable benefit in reading and applying Gordon Fee and Doug Stuart's little book, "How To Read the Bible for all it's Worth". As a primer, this book is without peer.

Eventually, however, people will want to progress to the next level. With such in mind I recommend Duvall and Hay's, "Grasping God's Word", published by Zondervan. What distinguishes this book is that it progresses through the actual processes involved in "interpreting" the various parts (and genres) of Scripture. This book seeks to teach method; such that enables the average Christian to translate meant into means, and sense into significance.

It's very good at what it does, and it's pitched at roughly 1st year university level. I highly recommend it to those who wish to grapple with God's Word in an authentic manner.

God bless,

Ian

email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:Grasping God's Word

Date Posted:21/11/2010 11:50 AMCopy HTML

Hi all,

I doubt that Revivalists would read either of these books as there have always been certain restrictions placed on the reading of matter other than what comes through their Revivalist Church although I do think it would help leaders and flock alike to do so.

I tried unsuccessfully to start a new topic but here is a good place with a good title "Grasping God's Word"  so here goes.

From the west there is singing in the streets of Perth, leaflets being handed out and 'things going on at Fremantle" which no doubt would include street witnessing and handing out of leaflets.  Others quite possibly are also in full swig doing the same.

Perhaps it would appropriate to take a look at the content one of these leaflets and maybe stimulate some discussion.  I've just come across some Revivalist literature in the back of an old KJV bible in my bookcase.  Some good discussion would imo be beneficial for all whether in/out of Revival, considering going in or considering coming out, whether RCI, RF, GRC or an offshoot as all have the same basic message.  After all, I'm sure Luke's gospel and the Acts narrative which went to Theophilus would have undergone some scrutiny and discussion, as with Paul's writings, so why not Revivalist literature.

Lets discuss if the leaflets do reveal a faultline.  I hope Revivalists will join in and won't misconstrue discussion as a personal criticism but an examination just to make sure.

As my leaflets have been fully written over I will type them as they are quite short, but if not, large excerpts will be taken out.

The first is titled -The Holy Spirit - What Must I do to be Saved?

The Bible records in detail the experience which completely changed the lives of those who accepted the gospel preached by the disciples of Christ.  Men from very humble backgrounds began to preach boldly and effectively concerning the resurrection of Christ and miracles of healing appeared in their ministry.  In effect they continued the ministry which Jesus himself began to relieve the suffering of mankind.

The experience which wrought this change was called the Baptism or Infilling with the Holy spirit.  This was fire from heaven which empowered the early church and which Jesus promised to all.  (John 7:37-39).  This was Salvation!  The living waters of Salvation.

Yet in this modern age when whole nations are nominally "Christain: and there are "churches" on every other street corner we hear practically nothing of the work of the Holy Spirit and we witness a corresponding absence of any demonstration of God's power.

WHO IS THE HOLY SPIRIT?
Over many centuries the nation of Israel was unable to keep God's law or realise the spirit of it.  When Jesus was crucified His disciples deserted Him.  After the resurrection they could not recommence working the miracles they had worked during His natural life.  God identified this inability as a spiritual lack and promised that He would give men a new spirit.  He decreed that the spirit would be His own, the HOLY SPIRIT (Acts 2:16-18). This would be the making of the New Covenant.

The indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit then becomes the source of God's power for service as in Bible days.  Through the Spirit we actually experience the person of Jesus Christ.  (Read Ephesians 3:16-21 and John 16:13-14).  In fact our Lord made it quite clear that to receive both He and the Father one must receive the Holy Spirit.  (John 13:20).

RECEIVING THE HOLY SPIRIT
We do not receive the Holy Spirit in stages over extended periods of time as some would have us believe.  We either have or have not received the Holy Spirit (see Acts 19:1-16).  We do not receive the Holy Spirit when we believe on Christ (see Ephesians 1:13 and Acts 19).  Nor do we necessarily receive the Holy spirit when we are baptised (see Acts 8:16)  This is a separate experience for those seeking salvation.

What the Next Testament does record is that when people received the Holy Spirit they began at the same moment to speak in new languages.  The words were identified by foreigners as being words of praise to God (Acts 2:8).  Peter, the Apostle, used this amazing sign as proof that people had received the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:33 and Acts 10:45-47).  This was the sign to unbelievers. (1 Cor. 14:22).  This God-given ability stands today as the only Bible evidence that the Spirit of God has entered into a man or woman.

Although many have testified to other experiences it is only when the earnest seeker speaks in tongues that we can say with scriptural authority that he has received the Holy Spirit.  From that point he is called to "Walk in the Spirit" and bring forth the fruits of his experience.  The apostate "churches" have opposed this wonderfgul salvation experience for centuries.....cold powerless tradition has replaced the personal "Presence of the Lord".

All over the world men and women are being filled with the Holy Spirit with the Bible evidence of speaking in a new language.  Jesus said "These signs shall follow them that believe....They shall speak with new tongues".  (Mark 16:17.

HOW TO RECEIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT
Firstly repent, secondly be baptised by full immersion in water, thirdly ask and expect to receive the Holy Spirit.  You will speak in tongues, you will be born again.  
There are absolutely no other requirements save these which are born of simple faith (Luke 11:11-13).  We don;t have to attain some standard of goodness or obey written laws (Galatians 3:2).  Nor do we need a course of religious instruction.  God is limited only by the degree of trust we have in Him.  Realise that this is the way you start as a Bible believer.  It is not a reward for previous service or faith.

A WARNING
Jesus said:  Except a man be born of water (by baptism) and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God" (John 3:5).  The baptism with the Holy Spirit is not an "optional extra" in the Word of God.  Rather it is God's seal or pledge that we are saved (Ephesians 1:13-14).  It is the condition of admittance into the Body of Christ (1Cor. 12:12).  The Spirit keeps us saved (2 Thess. 2:13).  The Bible therefore offers no assurance for those who choose to remain outside this freely offered experience.  We pray that these words will bring this vital experience of Christ into the lives of all who read them for you can prove them true.
We are also warned that "no other Gospel" is to be preached (Gal. 1:8).  To preach less than the Holy Spirit Baptism for salvation is a disaster. 
There is no salvation outside the receiving of the Holy Spirit.
For those who wish to study the  Baptism with the Holy Spirit, more fully from their own Bibles we list the following scriptures.  These are only a few of those which can be studied.

15 scriptures are listed.

God Bless to all.

EV
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Re:Grasping God's Word

Date Posted:21/11/2010 11:26 PMCopy HTML

Hi EV: This pamphlet seems ok to me. The problem/s with revivalist do not (imo) stem from, as some would say "The preaching of Another gospel" but rather in the cultish behaviour of some.

I see a huge difference between The GRC/CAI conduct and the RCI/RF.

I do think that the RCI morals policy is wrong (and a major problem that is an offence to God) but their salvation message (as they call it) sits well with me as a matter of doctrine.  That said I would advise everyone to stay well away from the RCI, CAI and GRC.

In my experience, the RF is the more moderate of the four mentioned. However depending on your location (NSW, QLD, SA or WA) those local to their state would be better positioned to say whether those states are more or less cultish.

I think at the end of the day it comes down to the local fellowship and the culture that has developed.

I also think that the labelling of all revivalist as cults is totally wrong.

mj
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Re:Grasping God's Word

Date Posted:21/11/2010 11:28 PMCopy HTML

 Hi EV

I have just one small question/point ... can you just check that leaflet for me please and verify that it actually states "Who is the Holy Spirit.." and not "What is the Holy Spirit"..

Personally the whole leaflet fails on the Christian message in that it is NOT CHRIST - CENTRIC and it demonstrates a very poor or non existent grasp of the centrality of the main leading character of the Christian message, who is Jesus Christ..

Blessings EV

Eric
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Re:Grasping God's Word

Date Posted:22/11/2010 12:17 AMCopy HTML

" ... but their salvation message (as they call it) sits well with me as a matter of doctrine"

While I agree with you about varying degrees of "cultishness", I must say that the "salvation" message doesn't "sit well" with scripture, and is in fact in conflict with scripture. There are imo a number of clear "choke points", and imo the underlying theology, to paraphrase Eric "demonstrates a non-existent grasp of the person and work of Jesus Christ". (That's not to say that there are no Xians who attend.) It's because I take scripture to be the normative authority for Xianity, that I finally left RCI/RF and indeed fellowship with a non-pentecostal church.
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Re:Grasping God's Word

Date Posted:22/11/2010 1:07 AMCopy HTML

Reply to Guest
 Hi EV

I have just one small question/point ... can you just check that leaflet for me please and verify that it actually states "Who is the Holy Spirit.." and not "What is the Holy Spirit"..

Personally the whole leaflet fails on the Christian message in that it is NOT CHRIST - CENTRIC and it demonstrates a very poor or non existent grasp of the centrality of the main leading character of the Christian message, who is Jesus Christ..

Blessings EV

Eric

Eric,

This is quite an up to date leaflet and the wording now is "Who is the Holy Spirit" rather than "What is the Holy Spirit" as was the case some time back. 

God Bless

EV
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Re:Grasping God's Word

Date Posted:22/11/2010 2:39 AMCopy HTML

Good aftrenoon, 'Jingles'.

Hi EV: This pamphlet seems ok to me. The problem/s with revivalist do not (imo) stem from, as some would say "The preaching of Another gospel" but rather in the cultish behaviour of some. And I would suggest to you that the reason for the latter has to do with the former. I see a huge difference between The GRC/CAI conduct and the RCI/RF. And I would diasgree; the difference is one of degree, not kind.

I do think that the RCI morals policy is wrong (and a major problem that is an offence to God) but their salvation message (as they call it) sits well with me as a matter of doctrine. And that is why you are as deserving of the epithet 'Revivalist heretic' as are they. In my experience, the RF is the more moderate of the four mentioned. However depending on your location (NSW, QLD, SA or WA) those local to their state would be better positioned to say whether those states are more or less cultish. I think at the end of the day it comes down to the local fellowship and the culture that has developed. Indeed. And one thing that is common to all, RCI/RF/GRC/CAI, indeed the one thing that unites all, is their belief in, and promotion of, a false and recently fabricated 'gospel' in place of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

I also think that the labelling of all revivalist as cults is totally wrong. As do I. I much prefer the term 'heretics' to 'cults', given that it goes right to the root of the problem! The apostle Paul had much to say about your lot, so perhaps it'spast  time that you paid him heed?

Ian
email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:Grasping God's Word

Date Posted:22/11/2010 3:12 AMCopy HTML

Hi Didak: Is it fair to say then that anyone who believes that Acts 2:38 constitutes a directive to Repent, Be Baptised in water and receive the holy ghost (with to evidence of tongues) is in your opinion a heretic?

If so then What Must I do to be Saved?

mj

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Re:Grasping God's Word

Date Posted:22/11/2010 3:32 AMCopy HTML

Jingles,

Is it fair to say then that anyone who believes that Acts 2:38 constitutes a directive to Repent, Be Baptised in water and receive the holy ghost (with to evidence of tongues) is in your opinion a heretic? To wit I respond: (1) are you a Jewish male? (2) Were you present at the outpouring of the Spirit at Pentecost? And, (3) where does Acts 2:38 mention anything about the so-called 'evidence' of 'tongues'?

If so then What Must I do to be Saved? Acts 16:30 is the only place in the entire New Testament where the question, "what must I do to be saved?" is asked, and then of a non-Jew. The answer to the question is to be found in the following verse: "believe that Jesus is God and you will be saved ..."

So, 'yes', anyone who misrepresents the meaning of Acts 2:38 as you and your co-religionists do is a heretic. Anyone who preaches 'salvation by human striving', as you and your co-religionists do, is a heretic.

Ian
email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:Grasping God's Word

Date Posted:22/11/2010 3:46 AMCopy HTML

Ian,


If so then What Must I do to be Saved? Acts 16:30 is the only place in the entire New Testament where the question, "what must I do to be saved?" is asked, and then of a non-Jew. The answer to the question is to be found in the following verse: "believe that Jesus is God and you will be saved ..."

Q. Is the jailer asking how to be saved, as in eternal ‘salvation’ or is he worried about what would happen to him as a consequent, considering the event that just happened at that time?

 

Ralph.

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Re:Grasping God's Word

Date Posted:22/11/2010 3:53 AMCopy HTML

Ralph,

Did you read the context of what had just happened?! Did you happen to note that the gaoler was baptised as a consequence?!

Geez, bro'

Ian
email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:Grasping God's Word

Date Posted:22/11/2010 4:01 AMCopy HTML

Yes, but it doesn't mean the motive for the jailer's question was first based on salvation for his soul. I'd say he believed as a result of the deliverence from death at the hands of his "employers"

Ralph.

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Re:Grasping God's Word

Date Posted:22/11/2010 4:06 AMCopy HTML

Reply to Didaktikon

Jingles,



If so then What Must I do to be Saved? Acts 16:30 is the only place in the entire New Testament where the question, "what must I do to be saved?" is asked, and then of a non-Jew. The answer to the question is to be found in the following verse: "believe that Jesus is God and you will be saved ..."


Ian

BINGO !!!  and tongues is NOT mentioned here in this narrative of the jailer AT ALL !!!  

... "and he and his entire household rejoiced that he believed in God"..


Eric
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Re:Grasping God's Word

Date Posted:22/11/2010 4:06 AMCopy HTML

Acts 2, seems a familiar situation, except they didn't use the word "saved" in the context. Guess this makes the difference.

Ralph

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Re:Grasping God's Word

Date Posted:22/11/2010 4:16 AMCopy HTML

Ralph,

Yes, but it doesn't mean the motive for the jailer's question was first based on salvation for his soul. I'd say he believed as a result of the deliverence from death at the hands of his "employers". Quit while you're behind, old fella!

Blessings,

Ian
email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:Grasping God's Word

Date Posted:22/11/2010 4:18 AMCopy HTML

Ralph,

Acts 2, seems a familiar situation, except they didn't use the word "saved" in the context. Guess this makes the difference. I thought you'd read my essays on Acts 2 and Acts 2:38 that appear at 'PleaseConsider'?!

Blessings,

Ian
email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:Grasping God's Word

Date Posted:22/11/2010 4:56 AMCopy HTML

 Awesome!!! there's our good ole friend "sozo" but here it is aorist PASSIVE "sotho"  ... yee haaa learn something new everyday !!!  now to get back to spending my 'day off' refreshing up on my practice at Hebrew..

Perhaps on my next 'day off' I should head to the nearest golf course down the road on the way to Logan Village.

blessings all

Eric
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Re:Grasping God's Word

Date Posted:22/11/2010 5:00 AMCopy HTML

Ian,

It seems like we mustn't be on the same "frequency" somehow and you are not "listening" to my questions. I'll go over everything again and come back to you.

blessing also

Ralph.
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Re:Grasping God's Word

Date Posted:22/11/2010 5:15 AMCopy HTML

Ralph,

It seems like we mustn't be on the same "frequency" somehow and you are not "listening" to my questions. I'll go over everything again and come back to you. We've been over this ground before, you and I. In point of fact I recall addressing these very sections of Scripture, and their implications, with you previously in some detail. I also recall pointing you to my essays at 'PC' then, given that they distil the pertinent issues in detail. In brief, what pertained to Jewish men at Pentecost does not pertain to non-Jewish believers post Pentecost! Think, 'covenant promises'.

Blessings,

Ian
email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:Grasping God's Word

Date Posted:22/11/2010 5:41 AMCopy HTML

Ian,
I do recall discussions on this. I'll dig up the documents I saved and do some feed back. Thanks.
Ralph
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Re:Grasping God's Word

Date Posted:22/11/2010 5:58 AMCopy HTML

Reply to Didaktikon

Ralph,

It seems like we mustn't be on the same "frequency" somehow and you are not "listening" to my questions. I'll go over everything again and come back to you. We've been over this ground before, you and I. In point of fact I recall addressing these very sections of Scripture, and their implications, with you previously in some detail. I also recall pointing you to my essays at 'PC' then, given that they distil the pertinent issues in detail. In brief, what pertained to Jewish men at Pentecost does not pertain to non-Jewish believers post Pentecost! Think, 'covenant promises'.

Blessings,

Ian

Hi Ian,

I do have one tiny problem with the PC essay:

"various supernatural manifestations on the Church’s birthday

Blessings

Eric
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Re:Grasping God's Word

Date Posted:22/11/2010 11:37 AMCopy HTML

Ian,

 

Yes I do see that the jailer was asking about the way of salvation (v.17).

 

I still maintain the events of that day would have had a lot do with prompting him to ask that question. The poor guy must have got the fright of his life when he discovered the doors wide open. What with the earthquake and his own pending death who could blame him for wanting to know.

If a prisoner was to escape, the guards would be executed (12:18).

 

Fair enough assumption?

 

Ralph.

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Re:Grasping God's Word

Date Posted:22/11/2010 9:51 PMCopy HTML

Hi Ian: I have a query about one of your essays entitled “The Grammatical Structure of Acts 2:38” (found here) in paragraph two of the conclusion you state the following:

(Please note the highlighted portion)

Revivalists baptize people who claim to be repentant, and they do so with the expectation that they will 'speak in tongues'. Those that don't are then directed to 'seek' for the Holy Spirit, as the missing 'tongues' is equated with a 'missing' Spirit. This entire approach is directly contradicted, even dismissed, by the grammar of Acts 2:38. First, baptism is to be administered only after a person has repented. Second, there can't be any seeking for the Holy Spirit, as no biblical warrant for this concept exists. Third, we read in the Acts 2 record that the 3,000 Jews rested in the assurance that they had received the gift of the Spirit, not because they spoke in tongues, which they didn't, but because they had repented and been baptised. This is the thrust of Peter's Pentecost message, and this remains the orthodox teaching of the Christian Church to this day.

Could please explain then for me Jesus’ comments in reference to the Holy Spirit and “Seeking” found in Luke chapter 11.

Luke 11:9  So I say to you, Ask and keep on asking and it shall be given you; seek and keep on seeking and you shall find; knock and keep on knocking and the door shall be opened to you.

Luke 11:10  For everyone who asks and keeps on asking receives; and he who seeks and keeps on seeking finds; and to him who knocks and keeps on knocking, the door shall be opened.

Luke 11:11  What father among you, if his son asks for a loaf of bread, will give him a stone; or if he asks for a fish, will instead of a fish give him a serpent?

Luke 11:12  Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion?

Luke 11:13  If you then, evil as you are, know how to give good gifts [gifts that are to their advantage] to your children, HOW MUCH MORE WILL YOUR HEAVENLY FATHER GIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT TO THOSE WHO ASK AND CONTINUE TO ASK HIM!

Amplified Version

No matter which version I look at the content of verse 13 in particular is the same…

Luke 11:13

(AMP)  If you then, evil as you are, know how to give good gifts [gifts that are to their advantage] to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask and continue to ask Him!

(ASV)  If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

 

(BBE)  If, then, you who are evil are able to give good things to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who make request to him?

(CEV)  As bad as you are, you still know how to give good gifts to your children. But your heavenly Father is even more ready to give the Holy Spirit to anyone who asks.

(EMTV)  If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, by how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!"

(ISV)  So if you who are evil know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who keep asking him!"

(KJV)  If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

(KJV+)  IfG1487 yeG5210 then,G3767 beingG5225 evil,G4190 knowG1492 how to giveG1325 goodG18 giftsG1390 unto yourG5216 children:G5043 how muchG4214 moreG3123 shall your heavenlyG1537 G3772 FatherG3962 giveG1325 the HolyG40 SpiritG4151 to them that askG154 him?G846

(LITV)  Then if you being evil know to give good gifts to your children, how much more the Father out of Heaven will give the Holy Spirit to those asking Him.

(MKJV)  If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?

(RV)  If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

(YLT)  If, then, ye, being evil, have known good gifts to be giving to your children, how much more shall the Father who is from heaven give the Holy Spirit to those asking Him!'

Given that Luke wrote the book of Acts; is it not possible that the principle of “Asking – Seeking - Finding” of/for the Holy Spirit is therefore implied?

Taking this further isn’t this same principle a key precipitator of faith?

mj

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Re:Grasping God's Word

Date Posted:22/11/2010 11:34 PMCopy HTML

Good morning, Jingles.

Second, there can't be any seeking for the Holy Spirit, as no biblical warrant for this concept exists. Could please explain then for me Jesus’ comments in reference to the Holy Spirit and “Seeking” found in Luke chapter 11 ... Given that Luke wrote the book of Acts; is it not possible that the principle of “Asking – Seeking - Finding” of/for the Holy Spirit is therefore implied? Taking this further isn’t this same principle a key precipitator of faith? From memory, this particular issue has been raised three times on this forum over the years; it's also been the subject of numerous emails from Revivalists spanning well over a decade.

The Lukan pericope under review covers verse one through verse thirteen; the topic being explicitly related to prayer: John the Baptist had taught his disciples how to pray, Jesus' disciples had requested likewise. Implicitly the section is related to the foreshadowed return of the Holy Spirit to Israel after an absence of about 400 years. Jesus introduced the 'model prayer' to his disciples, a prayer which is built around the same basic structure as the Decalogue: (1) a proper attitude towards approaching God: 'Father, holy be your name; your kingdom come!'; (2) a proper attitude towards meeting the needs of one's immediate social unit (i.e. the 'family'): 'give us food for today'; and, (3) a proper attitude towards interracting with one's wider social group (i.e. the 'community'): 'forgive our sins as we fogive the sins of others'. Importantly, note that the entire context is thoroughly Jewish. Commencing with verse five, Jesus shifts gears and begins expanding on the implications of his teaching through a parable, making use of a traditional Jewish exegetical method called Qal Wahomer. To properly understand the main point that he was seeking to drive home, it's crucial to consider the context introduced with the reference to the Baptist, his followers, and prayer. As I'm certain you would know well enough, John served as the forerunner to Jesus; his message being that the Messiah would introduce a 'new' era, one that would be specifically marked by the return of the Holy Spirit to the Jews (so Luke 3:16).

The parable itself was particularly pointed, as since the destruction of the Temple in 587 BC the Jews had lamented the withdrawal of the Spirit of prophecy. The Baptist anticipated a return; he recognised the arrival of God the Son, and what his arrival implied. Consequently John set about trying to 'wake' Israel, to encourage her to rise and greet her Messiah. Jesus' parable, however, lamented the fact that Israel was more-or-less comfortable with her lot, "‘Do not bother me; the door is now shut, and my children are with me in bed. I cannot get up and give you anything’". The nation chosen by God to be a 'light for revelation to the Gentiles' (see 2:29-32 and Acts 13:47ff) had largely extinguished the lamp that she was called to be, preferring instead to slumber comfortably in the dark. Christ concluded the parable by assuring his disciples that God, being a good father, knew what was best for his children (Israel). Further that he would send to them his Holy Spirit because of the prayers of the faithful. The historical context underpinning the parable was thoroughly Jewish. The literary context underpinning the parable was thoroughly Jewish. The immediate teaching context of the parable was thoroughly Jewish. And the fulfilment of the covenant promise at Pentecost, hinted at by the parable, was ... wait for it ... thoroughly Jewish! In short, 'a text without its C-O-N-T-E-X-T is a pretext for a prooftext'. Or, if you prefer, 'miss the markers, miss the message'.

I'm certain that you've noticed in your reading, that there isn't a single example of anyone in the entire Book of Acts either praying for or seeking for the Holy Spirit. Not a one. Why? Because post Pentecost AD 30, the Spirit was no longer absent from his people; consequently, nobody needed to be 'seeking' for him. One seeks what is 'lost', not what has been 'found'. Also, Knowing how much Revivalists love 'word studies' I'm surprised that you fellows hadn't cottoned on to a very important feature: the dative case of the Greek participle αἰτέω doesn't mean to 'seek'; it simply means to 'ask'. The word that best fits the Revivalist concept is ζητέω, which, of course, isn't found in verse 12. Perhaps this is another point that you should ruminate on?

I'll close this brief response by stating something that seems obvious to me, and is probably equally obvious to many other readers of this forum: what your sect presents, teaches and promotes concerning 'seeking' after the Holy Spirit just isn't biblical. What you fellows believe simply isn't a part of Luke's post Pentecost, post-Israel theology. What you fellows claim just isn't to be found anywhere in the Book of Acts, or anywhere in Paul's epistles. Given that you fellows promote yourselves as being an 'Acts church' (whatever that means), how do you explain the very clear disconnect? Finally, I do wonder that you isolatated the second of three statements that I made about Revivalist teaching and Acts 2:38. I'd be very interested in learning of your responses to the other two challenges, when you have a moment.

Ian
email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:Grasping God's Word

Date Posted:23/11/2010 6:04 AMCopy HTML

 It is so painfully obvious that revivalism desperately lacks any measurable understanding of the Person and work of Christ.. All you revivalists and revivalist adherents understand this: Christ is the source of everything we have in God. And everything we need in God comes through Christ alone. And Jesus Christ will always be your/our greatest need therefore let Jesus be your greatest aim..

Blessings

Eric
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Re:Grasping God's Word

Date Posted:23/11/2010 8:40 AMCopy HTML

 FWIW the comment way back at #4 was mine. I forgot to log in.
The evidence for Mann-made global warming is unequivocal.
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Re:Grasping God's Word

Date Posted:23/11/2010 4:40 PMCopy HTML

Hi Jingles,

I think Ian answered your Luke 11:13 query very well.  Selecting a verse or two, as Revivalists do, without looking at the whole leaves them open to serious error.

EV
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Re:Grasping God's Word

Date Posted:24/11/2010 1:56 AMCopy HTML


Hi Ian: Thanks for your response to my question.

I'm curious about where you stated
 "Post Pentecost AD 30, the Spirit was no longer absent from his people; consequently, nobody needed to be 'seeking' for him. One seeks what is 'lost', not what has been 'found'.

Are you of the mind that ALL who repent and are baptised are automatically filled with the holy ghost. Please clarify this for me.

I read a lot of what you disagree with. Please tell me what I need to do to be saved.

mj

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Re:Grasping God's Word

Date Posted:24/11/2010 4:12 AMCopy HTML

Please tell me what I need to do to be saved.

 

There is absolutely nothing YOU can do to be saved. Just believe in the Lord Jesus Christ in what he has achieved for us and be thankful and walk therein.

 

RH

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Re:Grasping God's Word

Date Posted:24/11/2010 8:56 AMCopy HTML

Good evening, Jingles.

Are you of the mind that ALL who repent and are baptised are automatically filled with the holy ghost. Please clarify this for me. I've already addressed what I believe and why in my 'Please Consider' essays: 'Acts 2:38' and 'Revivalist Dogma and the Book of Acts'; and then in much greater detail than I care to enter into here. Once you've reviewed these essays, I'll be happy to answer any questions they provoke. I read a lot of what you disagree with. Please tell me what I need to do to be saved. Did you read post # 8? I thought it was quite clear. Anyway, if you need a slightly longer summary of what Scripture presents as being necessary in order to be 'saved', then you might care to consult another of my essays, 'The Mystery of Salvation'. It also can be found on this site.

In closing, you fellows would stand a much greater chance of correctly interpreting Acts 2:38 if you: (1) stopped reading your theology into the verse, and (2) started reading what the verse actually says. A novel idea I know, but worth a try nonetheless.

Ian

email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:Grasping God's Word

Date Posted:24/11/2010 9:24 AMCopy HTML

I think Ian may have meant post #8. My comments barely need reflecting on for explanation.

RH.
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Re:Grasping God's Word

Date Posted:25/11/2010 12:08 AMCopy HTML

Good Morning Ian,

I found your explanation of Luke 11 : 1-13 (seeking) enlightening.  Long ago (pre Rev) I remember being told to 'think Jewish' when reading scripture. It certainly throws a different light on things.

Another scripture passage that some have a penchant for turning into proof that tongues is a must is Matthew 22 : 1-14.  Especially in verse 12, the guest without a wedding garment is said to be the one who doesn 't speak in tongues.  This slant comes up here and there among Rev members.

Would you mind making a few comments on this one please? 

EV

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Re:Grasping God's Word

Date Posted:25/11/2010 12:14 AMCopy HTML


I'll make a correction here:-  ."...the guest without a wedding garment is said to 'represent' the one who doesn't speak in tongues."
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Re:Grasping God's Word

Date Posted:25/11/2010 3:41 AMCopy HTML

Good afternoon, EV.

I found your explanation of Luke 11 : 1-13 (seeking) enlightening.  Long ago (pre Rev) I remember being told to 'think Jewish' when reading scripture. It certainly throws a different light on things. It does, indeed. Far too often people approach Scripture without the foggiest notion that it was written: (1) in a vastly different time to ours, (2) in a vastly different cultural matrix to ours, (3) in vastly different languages to ours, and (4) in vastly different social, geographical and religious environments to ours. When you fail to take these contexts into account, then you will likely as not miss the message because you've altogether missed the markers that imbue the message with meaning!

Another scripture passage that some have a penchant for turning into proof that tongues is a must is Matthew 22 : 1-14.  Especially in verse 12, the guest without a wedding garment is said to be the one who doesn 't speak in tongues.  This slant comes up here and there among Rev members. Would you mind making a few comments on this one please? Sure, why not?

'And again Jesus spoke to them in parables, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son, and sent his servants  to call those who were invited to the wedding feast, but they would not come.  Again he sent other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, See, I have prepared my dinner, my oxen and my fat calves have been slaughtered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding feast.’  But they paid no attention and went off, one to his farm, another to his business, while the rest seized his servants, treated them shamefully, and killed them. The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find.’ And those servants went out into the roads and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good. So the wedding hall was filled with guests. “But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment.  And he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ For many are called, but few are chosen.”' (ESV)

I'll begin by stating that this parable is pointed towards the already religious, that is, towards Israel. The banquet symbolises the blessings of God's salvation; the King is likened to God, the son is likened to Jesus, his servants being the OT prophets and Jesus' disciples. From a cultural perspective, those invited to a wedding banquet would have already received and accepted an earlier invitation; it was customary among Jews to send again to the guests, to advise them when the meal was ready. Consequently, the second invitation in verse 3, and which is repeated in verse 4, constitutes a double refusal on the part of Israel to heed their King! What follows is God's decision to take his covenant blessing, formerly extended to Israel alone, and to offer it to those outside the pale of his chosen nation. It's important to note at this point the fact that the invitation was extended to both the bad and the good. This explains the later presence of the one found lacking of a suitable wedding garment. The wedding garment itself provides for interesting commentary. In Jewish culture one wore clean clothes to a wedding feast, hence the person lacking the 'wedding garment' is the one who presented himself among the guests in soiled clothing. The lesson is, that although God extends the offer of salvation freely to all, (1) it's not without standards; (2) it should never be presumed upon; and (3) the offer shouldn't be treated lightly. The 'clean clothing', then, symbolically represents a life that's appropriate to one lived by God's new people. Finally, the expulsion of the man from the feast establishes a clear point in the providence of God: to be 'called' is one thing, to be 'chosen' another.

This particular parable shares many features common to another Matthean parables, most notably that of the Parable of the Tennants in chapter 21. I'd suggest that they be read in tandem.

Finally, several points need to be borne in mind: (1) there is no mention of 'tongues' anywhere in the Gospel According to Matthew. (2) Revivalists have misunderstood the basic context of the parable, that God's 'salvation feast' was to be opened to non-Jews as well as to Jews. They've misunderstood in that they've presumed the guests were the so-called 'Spirit-Filled' (i.e. Christians), whilst the one without the garment was a non 'Spirit-Filled' person! What the ... ?! (3) The guest without the appropriate garment represents those who rest (self) assured in their own (self) righteousness, ignoring altogether God's established requirements. In this respect, it's Revivalists themselves who best fit the 'profile' of the man ejected, the one who chose his own course rather than following the King'. Something to ponder ...

God bless,

Ian

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Re:Grasping God's Word

Date Posted:26/11/2010 3:50 AMCopy HTML

Hi Ian,

Thanks for your explanation of Matthew 22:1-14.  You word things clearly and well.  By using that background knowledge it gives a deeper understanding of what is being conveyed and of the God we follow and his relationship with humankind.

God Bless.

EV

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Re:Grasping God's Word

Date Posted:26/11/2010 3:54 AMCopy HTML

Hi, EV.

You're certainly welcome. I'm happy to have been of some small service.

Blessings,

Ian
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Re:Grasping God's Word

Date Posted:03/12/2010 8:11 AMCopy HTML

Reply to Mr_Jingles

Hi Ian: I have a query about one of your essays entitled “The Grammatical Structure of Acts 2:38” (found here) in paragraph two of the conclusion you state the following:

(Please note the highlighted portion)

Could please explain then for me Jesus’ comments in reference to the Holy Spirit and “Seeking” found in Luke chapter 11.

Luke 11:9  So I say to you, Ask and keep on asking and it shall be given you; seek and keep on seeking and you shall find; knock and keep on knocking and the door shall be opened to you.

Luke 11:10  For everyone who asks and keeps on asking receives; and he who seeks and keeps on seeking finds; and to him who knocks and keeps on knocking, the door shall be opened.

Luke 11:11  What father among you, if his son asks for a loaf of bread, will give him a stone; or if he asks for a fish, will instead of a fish give him a serpent?

Luke 11:12  Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion?

Luke 11:13  If you then, evil as you are, know how to give good gifts [gifts that are to their advantage] to your children, HOW MUCH MORE WILL YOUR HEAVENLY FATHER GIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT TO THOSE WHO ASK AND CONTINUE TO ASK HIM!

Amplified Version

No matter which version I look at the content of verse 13 in particular is the same…

Luke 11:13

(AMP)  If you then, evil as you are, know how to give good gifts [gifts that are to their advantage] to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask and continue to ask Him!

(ASV)  If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

 

(BBE)  If, then, you who are evil are able to give good things to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who make request to him?

(CEV)  As bad as you are, you still know how to give good gifts to your children. But your heavenly Father is even more ready to give the Holy Spirit to anyone who asks.

(EMTV)  If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, by how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!"

(ISV)  So if you who are evil know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who keep asking him!"

(KJV)  If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

(KJV+)  IfG1487 yeG5210 then,G3767 beingG5225 evil,G4190 knowG1492 how to giveG1325 goodG18 giftsG1390 unto yourG5216 children:G5043 how muchG4214 moreG3123 shall your heavenlyG1537 G3772 FatherG3962 giveG1325 the HolyG40 SpiritG4151 to them that askG154 him?G846

(LITV)  Then if you being evil know to give good gifts to your children, how much more the Father out of Heaven will give the Holy Spirit to those asking Him.

(MKJV)  If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?

(RV)  If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

(YLT)  If, then, ye, being evil, have known good gifts to be giving to your children, how much more shall the Father who is from heaven give the Holy Spirit to those asking Him!'

Given that Luke wrote the book of Acts; is it not possible that the principle of “Asking – Seeking - Finding” of/for the Holy Spirit is therefore implied?

Taking this further isn’t this same principle a key precipitator of faith?

mj


Mr Jingles,

Firstly I am not a follower of Ian as in a person but I do try to follow in the example that Ian leads and displays....


Now the above the verses as you have propose them is entirely in error.. Mr Jingles have you ever heard of the word "pericope" . A "pericope" is basically a rhetorical passage or set of verses that form a narrative or a complete coherent verses that form a single coherent thought.  Now the "pericope" of the narrative that you are referring to begins in Luke 11 verse 1. It does NOT begin in verse 11 as you are mistakenly asserting. The "pericope opens with (NIV):

"One day Jesus was praying in a certain place. When he finished, one of his disciples said to him, "Lord, teach us to pray, just as John taught his disciples."

The "pericope" finishes in verse 13:

"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those that ask him."

Now Mr Jingles you harp harp on the word "ask" and you fail to do your homework by undertaking a little practice in epistemology by asking the right questions and then checking yourself again to see if you are asking the right questions. You should look again at the word "ask" and question the objective of the word "ask".  The main subject of the "pericope" Mr Jingles if you care to read the passage in its proper context, is really about the answer that Jesus gives to his disciple's request "Lord teach us to pray"  and then the Lod Jesus spells out a rather powerful new way to pray and approach the Father. Now I realize you have no grip or understanding of the Greek language and its syntax so let me inform you that the prayer that Jesus is teaching on carries the imperative mood which is the mood of command.. And within this prayer is the clause "and forgive us the sins of us" but also this clause is neatly co-joined by the conjunction "kai" with "Father let be held in reverence the name of you let come the kingdom of you, the bread of us daily give to us each day". The importance of the conjunction "kai" is that it highlights equal weighing of importance of both these clauses together. That is approaching the Father and forgiveness of sins. In short Jesus is SPELLING OUT how to ask (and approach) the Father.  And Jesus concludes the "pericope" : "tois aitousin auton - the ones asking him" . So Mister Jingles you should be asking the question you should be asking yourself is "Is Jesus telling his disciple to ask for the Holy Spirit or is Jesus telling his disciple to ask the Father for something else ??" ... Look again at the "pericope" and you see within the prayer the imperative verb "aphes humin - forgive us" ..

See Mr Jingles the Holy Spirit is not given without repentance. Without the shedding of blood there is no atonement for sin so it is clear that rather than ask for the Holy Spirit as you propose, Jesus is teaching his inquiring disciple the importance of forgiveness for sin. Because Mr Jingles without atonement for sin, no person can approach the Father at all and ask him for anything..   The whole theme of this highly important pericope within Luke's Gospel is repentance..

I would suggest you try repentance first..

Eric..
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