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Didaktikon
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Date Posted:26/11/2011 2:44 AMCopy HTML

Gentlefolk,

When artists attempt to forge a work so as to pass it off as the original piece they go to considerable effort to make it appear, outwardly at least, authentic. The very nature of the counterfeiting business, whether it involves objet d'art, currency, designer handbags, even religion; is that the counterfeit is always judged against and compared to the 'original'. But only the original has intrinsic value; only the original stands as the exemplar against which all copies are assessed, and are found wanting.

Most people, I assume, would find it a ridiculous proposition to be swearing off (for example) a Rolex Oyster wristwatch, simply because they were conned into buying a Chinese knock-off by a slick and dodgy salesman, even if the salesman believed in his own product! The Rolex remains valuable despite the con; it remains 'the' standard against which all mechanical, Swiss-made wristwatches are judged (never mind their Chinese copies). So why does the same not apply with respect to biblical Christianity? Why is it that there are people who, having been conned into believing that the RCI, TRF, GRC or CAI represented authentic Christianity, then forever swear off the real thing?

The instrinsic worth of Christianity isn't diminished, despite the fact of the RCI, TRF, GRC or CAI.

Blessings,

Ian
email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:Counterfeiting

Date Posted:26/11/2011 5:46 AMCopy HTML


 .... Howdy Ian,

I perpetually cop the same old baloney: "It's all head knowledge" or "pharisee" and other such nonsensical objections from a lot of directions in different corners but the fact is that whenever we open up our Bibles, whether we realize it or not, we are doing theology. In the 'revivalist' context, however, it is a  rather weak and poor theology that is being developed and "holding forth"  (Phil 2:16) by Biblically incompetent, unlearned and unskilled men who are more concerned about their own well beings rather than the people who have self entrusted themselves to these errant un- credentialed, Biblically naive  revivalist shepherds. Is it any wonder that when sound qualified truth is presented to those folk who leave these revivalist groups that they are totally unable to take hold of real truth which in its basic essence is totally beyond them??

 ... and how do you minister to someone who has had the likes of the ilk of Tony Barton and his revivalist contemporaries as their shepherd ??

blessings

..Eric
Didaktikon Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #2
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Re:Counterfeiting

Date Posted:26/11/2011 7:47 AMCopy HTML

Hi, Eric.

... it is a  rather weak and poor theology that is being developed and "holding forth"  (Phil 2:16) by Biblically incompetent, unlearned and unskilled men who are more concerned about their own well beings rather than the people who have self entrusted themselves to these errant un- credentialed, Biblically naive revivalist shepherds. Is it any wonder that when sound qualified truth is presented to those folk who leave these revivalist groups that they are totally unable to take hold of real truth which in its basic essence is totally beyond them?? From my perspective the issue of 'credentials' is largely unimportant; what's vital instead is a capacity to be open to, and recognise, the Gospel message as Scripture presents it. I also don't for one moment believe the capacity to grasp truth is beyond anyone who is open to being shaped by it. Light has a way of breaking through darkness, after all ;) Even so, such wasn't really the thrust of my post 

... and how do you minister to someone who has had the likes of the ilk of Tony Barton and his revivalist contemporaries as their shepherd ?? I'd suggest that you do so the same way that one should minister to any person: authentically, and with the biblical Gospel front and centre. The influence of Mr Barton et al isn't quite as great as you've inferred, given that a sound argument always trumps an unsound one ;)

To press the analogy of this thread a little further, an observation: the US Treasury Department and the US Secret Service don't train their agents to recognise counterfeit currency by exposing them to counterfeit currency. To the contrary, they expose them to authentic currency. By being intimately familiar with, through the constant handling of, the 'real thing' these agents are able to immediately identify counterfeits as they come across them. I personally believe the same principle applies when exposing people to the Christian faith and her teachings, whether said people be Revivalists, former Revivalists, or the general whomsoever :)

Blessings, dude.

Ian
email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:Counterfeiting

Date Posted:26/11/2011 10:13 PMCopy HTML


 . Hi Ian,

Yes but we have to consider that men in themselves are generally incapable of discerning between the real and the counterfeit. Hence Grace enters the picture:


(From Westminster Confession of Faith )

I. The grace of faith, whereby the elect are enabled to believe to the saving of their souls, is the work of the Spirit of Christ in their hearts; and is ordinarily wrought by the ministry of the Word: by which also, and by the administration of the sacraments, and prayer, it is increased and strengthened.

II. By this faith, a Christian believeth to be true whatsoever is revealed in the Word, for the authority of god himself speaking therein; and acteth differently, upon that which each particular passage thereof containeth; yielding obedience to the commands, trembling at the threatenings, and embracing the promises of God for this life, and that which is to come. But the principle acts of saving faith are, accepting, receiving, and resting upon Christ alone for justification, sanctification, and eternal life, by virtue of the covenant of grace.

III. This faith is different in degrees, weak or strong; may be often and many ways assailed and weakened, but gets the victory; growing up in many to the attainment of a full assurance through Christ, who is both the author and finisher of our faith.

Without Grace, what hope has any Revivalist ???

Blessings Dude.

Eric

PS. I suggest to you that "revivalism" as we have seen it in its Longfield theology and paradigm, is sin..

 

 

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Re:Counterfeiting

Date Posted:26/11/2011 11:36 PMCopy HTML

Yes, “Truth is truth no matter what we think otherwise”.

I’m not sure whether one can look at Revival as a ‘counterfeit’ for Christianity but if so, a very poor one at that. Even so, many are sucked in and deceived.

I for one spent many years somehow feeling and seeing what they preached didn’t line up according to scripture but also I didn’t know there was ‘Grace’ until I started listening to one who was sent and pointed out my ignorance and showed me what was attained by the death of Jesus at the cross......  

I believe many in their minds know that Revivalist way is wrong but do not make a move out of legalistic fear (even some in Jesus time that would not ‘confess their faith’ for fear of being kicked out of the synagogue. John 12:42) or if they do, profess not to know God any longer because they do not have knowledge of the ‘genuine’ way as revealed by the bible.

I believe in Christianity as I believe the sun has risen; not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else. C.S.Lewis.
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Re:Counterfeiting

Date Posted:27/11/2011 2:30 AMCopy HTML

Hello, Ralph.

I’m not sure whether one can look at Revival as a ‘counterfeit’ for Christianity but if so, a very poor one at that. Of course it's a counterfeit of Christianity. Revivalism seeks to project itself as Christian, it promotes itself in Christian dress, it uses Christian terms and it mimics Christian culture. The fact of it being a counterfeit of Christianity is beyond doubt; whether or not it is a 'good' counterfeit, or a 'poor' one, is another matter altogether. Even so, many are sucked in and deceived. To state the obvious: deception, of course, is the principle aim of counterfeiting.

I for one spent many years somehow feeling and seeing what they preached didn’t line up according to scripture but also I didn’t know there was ‘Grace’ until I started listening to one who was sent and pointed out my ignorance and showed me what was attained by the death of Jesus at the cross ... And that despite the fact that you had ready access to the very book which waxes lengthy on the subject of grace all along! Like us all, you chose to believe the lie, at least until the point where continuing to do so was no longer a credible option ;) 

I believe many in their minds know that Revivalist way is wrong but do not make a move out of legalistic fear (even some in Jesus time that would not ‘confess their faith’ for fear of being kicked out of the synagogue. John 12:42) or if they do, profess not to know God any longer because they do not have knowledge of the ‘genuine’ way as revealed by the bible. And yet they, like you, always had ready access to the Bible! To continue to believe in, and to follow, a course which one knows is false is base idiocy. From my perspective to make the profession, "God is not", because one is convinced that "Revivalism is not", is more akin to: (a) sloppy thinking, (b) laziness, or (c) naivete. But it remains a choice, nonetheless ;)

Blessings,

Ian
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Re:Counterfeiting

Date Posted:27/11/2011 6:22 AMCopy HTML

Hello Ian and Ralph.

... Are revivalists capable of making a choice ? or do revivalists remain condemned without hope within the heresy of revivalism ??

blessings Guys

Eric


 
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Re:Counterfeiting

Date Posted:27/11/2011 9:51 AMCopy HTML

 

Hi Eric,

 

I had to consider your question/s for quite a time to see what you might be getting at.

 

... Are revivalists capable of making a choice ?

Yes, because I did.

 

 or do revivalists remain condemned without hope within the heresy of revivalism ??

No, because I had a choice.

 

But one has to “look outside the camp” before one can see *through it thou.

 

Ralph.

 

* c —used as a function word to indicate exposure to a specified set of conditions <put him through hell> (Merriam-Webster dict.)

I believe in Christianity as I believe the sun has risen; not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else. C.S.Lewis.
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