Hi John,

George Richter here, email me at ggrichter@gmail.com living in Brisbane now love to catch up over the email

spot ya George

---

The word obey is (peitho) is in the passive voice and simply means to be persuaded.To win over.Oversite is never to rule over but to guide.Paul counted himself a fellow worker not a ruler.Jesus said the Gentiles lord it over one another but with you it will not be so.If you want to be incharge,or guide a group you must be their servant.No where in Scritpure is there rulership over the flock.No where in Scripture are we commanded to obey men.We are told to give double

---

That being the case, why then has every translation team for almost every bible version available simply translated it as "obey your oversight"?? You'd think these translation teams would know a little more that you or I about the Greek texts, so they coulda said "be pursuaded by your oversight".  But they didn't. 

Heb 13:17 KJV
Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

Heb 13:17 AMP
Obey your spiritual leaders and submit to them [continually recognizing their authority over you], for they are constantly keeping watch over your souls and guarding your spiritual welfare, as men who will have to render an account [of their trust]. [Do your part to] let them do this with gladness and not with sighing and groaning, for that would not be profitable to you [either].

Heb 13:17 NIV
Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you.

Heb 13:17 NLT
Obey your spiritual leaders, and do what they say. Their work is to watch over your souls, and they are accountable to God. Give them reason to do this with joy and not with sorrow. That would certainly not be for your benefit.

Heb 13:17 NRSV
Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls and will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with sighing - for that would be harmful to you.

Heb 13:17 NASB
Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.

 Heb 13:17 ESV
Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.

Heb 13:17 GNB
Obey your leaders and follow their orders. They watch over your souls without resting, since they must give to God an account of their service. If you obey them, they will do their work gladly; if not, they will do it with sadness, and that would be of no help to you.

Heb 13:17 NCV
Obey your leaders and act under their authority. They are watching over you, because they are responsible for your souls. Obey them so that they will do this work with joy, not sadness. It will not help you to make their work hard. 
 

---

Reply to The Prophet:That being the case, why then has every translation team for almost every bible version available simply translated it as "obey your oversight"?? You'd think these translation teams would know a little more that you or I about the Greek texts, so they coulda said "be purs

---

What are you trying to say here Free? Are you pedaling the idea that people should submit themselves to whatever nutcase is leading the group at a particular time... or just making conversation. I don't care how many translators put a slant towards oversight obedience without question. That's messed up and that's why millions get messed up. Unable to think for themselves people herd themselves to leaders who they think are something special.

Perhaps if you line that scripture up with this one in 1 Peter it makes more sense. Ya see, the only reason I take advice from my workplace managers etc is because they've got experience and stuff is working for them. They have earned some of my respect and deserve some.

"Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble" (I Peter 5:5).

In a realistic model, I don't believe this verse refers to what is generally termed as church elders, but rather to those who are older and more knowledgeable in your field (in this scenario, your church). Respect is deserved by anyone older and a bit wiser... yep Revivalists, even women! Corrolate it with the following verse also:

"Rebuke not an elder, but intreat him as a father; and the younger men as brethren; The elder women as mothers; the younger as sisters, with all purity" (I Timothy 5:1-2).

---

the above post is me (Free)  - all about OBEY an earthly leader......

---

---

Reply to : Free [Anonymous]the above post is me (Free) - all about OBEY an earthly leader......Mathew 23: Jesus Warns the Religious LeadersThenJesus saidto the crowds and to his disciples,2"The teachers of religious law and the Pharisees are the official interpreters of the Scriptures.3So practice and obey whatever they say to you, butdon't follow their example. For they don't practice what they teach.4They crush you with impossible religious deman

---

I think that's a bit overboard dont you?! I mean my pastor does serve us - he listens and takes on any suggestions we make. I doubt Jesus was referring to NT church pastors here in particular - he was talking about traditional Jewish leaders who still to this day dont believe Jesus h

---

Not overboard at all.  If they are teaching Jesus is not God - they are leading many to hell - just like the Jewish leaders - they don't believe Jesus is God!

Reply to : Anonymous

                                          "

Reply to : The Prophet

                    "Well free, What your saying is I,m wrong... and Jesus and Paul got it wrong.

                     To rule over. authority command control domination dominion mastery might power supremacy

                    The opposite (antonym) servillity servitude weakness.........sounds more like it. "

Oh please, Prophet come on!!

"To rule over " is only a licence to butcher and control the sheep! Not to gently guide them like what the bible is truely saying here.

But i'm understanding to your ingnorance of such things if you are indeed part of the revival centers. There is a  false god in the revival groups and its name is  called the "CONTROL god" 

Which like its done to you infects its teaching to every part of your life and mind!

Sadly for those who leave the revival groups it can take years of detox's to get the false rubbish out of there minds and hearts, and to get Good sound ministry and healing.

---

There is a  false god in the revival groups and its name is  called the "CONTROL god" 

---

Now aint that a fact !!

Old McKuhlman had a farm Ye I Ye I Yooo

and on this farm he had some sheep Ye I Ye I yooo

with a whip whip here and a whip whip there everywhere a whip whip..

Yep Wazza you got it right there dingo

cheers

anon

---

What your saying is I,m wrong... and Jesus and Paul got it wrong.

---

How dare someone call the trinity wrong... You, Jesus and Paul!

I'm sorry, but you keep setting yourself up.

Another big struggle for many ex revers, we are very guarded once we leave and never wnat to put in a position where anyone will "tell us what to do"

I think to be cautious on this one is wise, dont just let anyone be you "pastor".

In the end we must find a place where we can trust again, its part of the healing proccess, I have found that most Leaders that I have fellowshiped with are gentle and loving and pastoral in its true'st sense. There are those out there to be aware of,and our inbuile control radar will kick in real quick on these ones

Hebrews 13/7 So, as it reads, "Remember your leaders, who spoke THE WORD OF GOD, to you, Consider the OUTCOME OF THEIR WAY OF LIFE , and imitate, THEIR FAITH.

These are leaders that you would want to obey as you would be impressed by their application of Gods Word to their way of life, and you would want that for yourself and  your family if that was the case. 

A leader such as this is not going to instruct you to do anything that is contrary to the word, and would understand if God was putting you through a difficult prolonged trial.

Such a leader would possess all the below qualities as abreviated but found in 1st Timothy and Titus.

QUALIFICATIONS FOR ELDERS/LEADERS.

SELF-CONTROLLED    HOSPITABLE    ABLE TO TEACH    NOT VIOLENT BUT GENTLE    NOT QUARRELSOME    NOT A LOVER OF MONEY    NOT A RECENT CONVERT    HAS A GOOD REPUTATION WITH OUTSIDERS    NOT OVERBEARING      NOT QUICK-TEMPERED    LOVES WHAT IS GOOD    UPRIGHT, HOLY    DISCIPLINED    ABOVE REPROACH (BLAMELESS)    HUSBAND OF ONE WIFE    TEMPERATE    RESPECTABLE    NOT GIVEN TO DRUNKENNESS    MANAGES HIS OWN FAMILY WELL    SEES THAT HIS CHILDREN OBEY HIM    DOES NOT PURSUE DISHONEST GAIN    HOLDS TO THE TRUTH    SINCERE    TESTED.            

Thats all very well and good and right charty, what my post is trying to say though is that there are many who find it hard to trust a leader again after comming out of rcf/rci etc.

My question is how did/do people deal with that?

For me it was a process (and sometimes ongoing) I asked lots of questions until i felt satisfied that where I was fellowshiping was Safe

 Reply to : earth5

---

Thats all very well and good and right charty, what my post is trying to say though is that there are many who find it hard to trust a leader again after comming out of rcf/rci etc.My question is how did/do people deal with that?For me it was a process (and sometimes ongoing) I asked lots of questions until i felt satisfied that where I was fellowshiping was Safe

---

---

Thats all very well and good and right charty, what my post is trying to say though is that there are many who find it hard to trust a leader again after comming out of rcf/rci etc.My question is how did/do people deal with that?For me it was a process (and sometimes ongoing) I asked lots of questions until i felt satisfied that where I was fellowshiping was Safe

---

People who lead let it go to their head... absolute power corrupts absolutely... and a little power corrupts a little. I see it even in all the teachers I work with, and I see it in myself. Some people lead and others follow, but heck, some people shouldn't be leading I think that church people who are bred and buttered in controlling environments become conditioned to it and should kick the damn habit. You don't need to rely on other people to continuously tell you how to live.

Leader following addicts love and yearn for someone to lead them... and will crave other people to do it to them. Good leaders tell their follower that by changing their habits they can change themselves (Dr Phil is a good example), but the advice is temporal because without the continual support of a authority in their lives they fall back to old habits very quickly. It's a vicious circle of dependancy. They then hope another leader will help them change for the better... but that's exploited by the leaders (pastors).

The paradox lies in the new charismatic figure of the moment, the new pastor of the 'better' church whom people could trust and follow, who will never do anything publically self-defeating.  Why would they want to destroy the myth, and lose their grand position in society?  It's not going to happen. It's in the nature of the typical church leader to be crowd-pleasing.

What attracts the easily lead christian to church-hop, a better doctrine... or a better leader.

I don't have superiors or inferiors. I don't have leaders coz I don't need them. I am a grown up and I can work stuff out for myself.

Why don't ppl who have the need to control others ever sit down and ask themselves why they need to do that. It really isn't healthy. Being a parent (sometimes a very bad one) has taught me that every time I feel the need for control and start losing grip coz I don't have it, I need to step back and asky myself why. Why am I treating my kids like the Revivals treated me? The reason is always the same. Fear. I lost two years of relationship with my eldest daughter coz of that fear. Fear that she was scum bcoz she wasn't following God's ways. Luckily I taught her how to be forgiving too.

I am at the point now where I don't recognise any authority except for the authority pointing a gun at me. I won't give the power to anyone ever again to hurt me the way I have been hurt.

Agreed, arth5, "Singed", Moth, and Galien, I was just quoting what Paul and God would have as an ideal leader of a church, obviously, a little hard to locate.

We are to "WORK OUT OUR OWN, SALVATION, WITH FEAR AND TREMBLING"  This can be a little hard to do with someone thinking they know what is best for us, God has an individual plan for each and every child of his, and for anyone to know the varous intracacies ,buried emotions in just one person, let alone a whole congregation, is just too preposterous to be believed

If we dont work out our salvation with fear and trembling then we are in danger or at least possible danger of 'THE BLIND FOLLOW THE BLIND AND BOTH FALL IN THE DITCH"  and here is a strong statement,

"CURSED IS THE ONE WHO TRUST IN MAN, WHO DEPENDS ON FLESH FOR HIS STRENGTH, AND WHOSE HEART TURNS AWAY FROM THE LORD".  jER17/5

We may not THINK that we are following men, but are you calling your pastor a 'PASTOR" . 5 Verses in Matthew 23 tell us NOT to do this, all are brothers, one teacher, JESUS,

A brother in the GRC who used to call himself an Apostle, no longer does this after it was pointed out.