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MothandRust
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Date Posted:27/11/2005 1:57 PMCopy HTML

Reply to RobustBut I must repeat: according to the Gospel Women are not supposed to preach or teach in the gatherings of the church when adult males are present. That is God's law. Some Church leaders ignore this divine directive at their peril.Bible Answer:This letter wasa response to questions the church was asking in another letter. 1 Cor 7:1 says, "Now for the matters you wrote about..."The Corinthians wrote of questions to Paul. I think the passagein questionwas Paul quoting one of the false teachings going on in the Corinthian church. Notice theentirelanguagehe uses.Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.What?came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only. (1 Cor 14:34-36, KJV)After this statement Paul exclaims"What?"Paul is aghast when he reads back and replies to this statement. Paul is quoting from the letter like we do here in the forums (in my opinion). The fact Paul exclaims, "who wantedto exclude the women from speaking based on the Law.Pilinut - Hi Robust, I just have a question for you. You quoted 1 Corinthians 14: 34: Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. My question to you is where in the Old Testament Law is Paul quoting from? What scripture is it?Paul did not teach the Law but Grace. Paul wouldn't use the Law to prove anything. The author of this statement about women used the Law as their directive."But they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law."Paul taught that we were freed from the Law (see Ephesians 2:15 and Colossians 2:14), sodo you thinkhe would use the law to ban women? Paul did not agree with the statement. I believe he questioned it.WhatDIDPaul say?"Let him acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord's command" (14:37). Paul taught and wrote that the women in Corinth could prophesy with their heads covered (ch 11). He also wrote, "For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged " (14:31).All can prophesy. That includes women!"In the Lord, however, woman is not independent of man, nor is man independent of woman" (11:11). Paul was a "woman hater" as some think.There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. (Gal 3:28)Iwouldn't use the Bible to discriminate but toliberate -otherwise we fall intobondage. We have to be able to admit that we don't know it all and touse grace. The Revival churches havediscriminated against so many for so many things for too long.Let your conscience help you interpret the bible (or as many christians say "let the Lord reveal things to you" but, as long as the Lord makes sense eh? There is logic here!)Robust - Women are not supposed to preach or teach in the gatherings of the church when adult males are present. That is God's law.With what logic canused to forbid women from leadershipor teaching?Is this wonderful speciesunableto dothese things(speech problems or stupidity... nup... and we males would be hung for even thinking that aloud) I don't get it. Thereare nochurch leadership requirements (preaching, organising, counseling) that women can't do effectively.It's not football... we're not demanding physical prowess (no offense to women footballers but you know what I mean).and about the passage in 1 Timothy 2:12-15.I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. But women will be saved through childbearing?if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.I don't think this verse can be used in the church context. It's talking about the family unit.Paul uses Adam and Eve as examples of authority. Adam and Eve were husband and wife, not pastor and sheep.
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Re:Can women be pastors?

Date Posted:27/11/2005 2:36 PMCopy HTML

Quote from Brett

(I hope you don't mind me reposting it here - I thought it a good argument and would be found here more easily rather than buried in an obscurely titled thread)

I don't blame anyone for having such hang ups 'cause we were all indoctrinated by NH to have a wrong view of women's role. Again, the oppression of women and prejudices towards them by men in the church is not unique to NH's male chauvinistic little group, but has a very long and sad history among professing Christians, and NH's group has simply inherited this bias from a long line of  anti women Christian leaders and teachers.

I once believed everything I heard from NH about how women should conduct themselves in the church and in the family, but after a very careful study of the scriptures about the matter I changed my mind, and now am no longer obsessed about keeping my wife 'in subjection' to everything I think, say and expect. Ie I stopped being a dictator to her and became a husband.

GRC pastors expect women to not do too much at all. One of the most dangerous and hateful things for them is a woman who can actually think and therefore challenge their male domination of all things. Basically, a woman's role is to look pretty and 'Christian', wearing nice dresses, smile a lot, and be good at serving the tea and scones, while leaving all the deep thinking and discussion to the men.

NH and his disciples are male chauvinists who feel very threatened by any intelligent, gifted woman.

They feel that way 'cause they think that's the way the Bible says women should be. Silent, never teaching, leaving everything to the men.

But the Bible teaches no such thing. In fact it teaches the opposite.I want to bring certain scriptures to your attention and I really hope you will consider carefully what they are saying so you will be free from the anti women prejudice you have been given.

First, Miriam the prophetess. Aaron's sister.

She was called a 'prophetess' (Exodus 15 v.20) 'cause she was gifted by God to deliver messages to God's people. That means she was chosen and called by God to preach and teach God's people. A prophet was also commissioned by God to LEAD his people as well;  'I brought you up out of Egypt, and redeemed you from the land of slavery, I sent Moses to lead you, also Aaron and MIRIAM'. (Micah 6:4).

Miriam was one of the LEADERS of God's people, that's why she was gifted by God.Moses and Aaron had the prime leadership roles, but Miriam assisted them in leadership and was looked upon as one of Israel's leaders.

Deborah, the prophetess.

Here is another female leader of God's people. She was called and gifted by God so that she would communicate His will to the people."Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lappidoth, was LEADING Israel at that time". ( Judges 4:4).

"She held court..in the hill country of Ephraim, and the Israelites came to her to have their disputes decided". (Judges 4:5).

We are told her that she was THE LEADER of God's people and that the people (which obviously includes the men) followed her decisions. That sounds like a woman who wore the pants, wouldn't you say ?

Anti women Bible teachers have tried to explain this away, 'cause if God did indeed choose Deborah to be THE leader of His people, it completely demolishes their idea that women are forbidden by God to have such roles. God didn't forbid it, He encouraged it here, actually He did more, He commanded a woman to be the leader of His people.

Male chauvinists try to get around this by saying there was no man in Israel that God could use at that time, so He reluctantly had to use a woman.

Where does the scripture actually say that? It doesn't. That is an argument from silence.

The fact is that God appointed a woman to lead His people, and God's action here proves that He does NOT forbid women from having active teaching and leading roles among His people. Notice also, that Deborah had a husband, so was she "out of order", "not in subjection", when God told her to be the leader?

Huldah, the prophetess.

We read about her in 2 Kings 22:14, where she is being consulted by the highest officials of the nation on behalf of the King.

King Josiah, wanted to know what God wanted him to do so the nation would be blessed.

He consulted a woman, Huldah, and did what she instructed. The King followed the instructions of a woman.He did so 'cause she had been raised up, called and gifted by God to give guidance and direction to God's people.

So among God's people Israel, it was considered acceptable that God would call a woman to a place of teaching, guidance and leadership. We find the same thing when we go to the New Testament. This is very clear when we read what the Apostle Paul said about various women involved in ministry with him.

The husband and wife team, Aquila and Priscilla.

Priscilla was the wife of Aquila, but she was obviously involved in teaching and ministry in the church just as much as her husband was. In fact, she shared ministry with him, and did what he did as well.

Eg, Romans 16:3, Paul says, "Greet Priscilla and Aquila, my fellow workers in Christ Jesus."

Verse 5.. "Greet the church that meets at their house."

He calls Priscilla a 'fellow worker' in ministry.I.e  She was sharing in the ministry Paul was engaged in. Her 'work' was not serving the tea and scones for the guys, staying quiet, looking pretty and dumb, and smiling like a good GRC pastor's wife who leaves all the teaching and ministering to her hubbie.

Notice too that Paul didn't say to greet the church in Aquila's house. The wife was helping him run the church.

Actually, in that chapter, Romans 16, Paul personally greets no less than 8 women by name, indicating that women performed important services in the church.

In Acts 18:26 we see how Priscilla and her husband ministered and taught together.

They BOTH taught the preacher Apollos the full Gospel. She was just as much involved in the teaching side of things as her husband.

In 1 Corinthians 16:19 both the husband and the wife are again referred to as jointly leading the church.

In Philippians 4 v.3 Paul says.. "help these women who have contended at my side in the cause of the Gospel and the rest of my fellow workers".

There were certain women here who CONTENDED with Paul for the Gospel. That means they were helping Paul to teach and preach, and he describes them in the same words as he describes those men who were involved in teaching and preaching, 'fellow workers'.

In Romans 16 verses 1 and 2 Paul sends a woman, Phebe, who he calls a "minister of the church in Cenchrea" to the church at Rome as his official, authorized representative, and requests the church to give her whatever she requires. Here is a woman who is a recognized 'minister' of a church, bearing the endorsement and authority of the Apostle Paul.

Could you imagine NH sending a woman to another church as his official, authorized representative and not a man?

I hope you can see from the passages that I have quoted so far that the early church did not regard women the same way that NH and co. do.

What NH taught us about women is in reality the cultural expectations for women of 19th century and early 20th century middle class British society.

Professing Christians have oppressed and restricted women for a long time. They have been prevented from using their God given gifts and talents by chauvinistic male church leaders.

I believe that male chauvinists in the church feel threatened by gifted, talented, intelligent and deeply spiritual women.

Such women are an offense to their arrogant male egos!

"How dare a woman teach me anything!"

"No woman is gonna teach ME anything!"

Their distorted interpretations of the scriptures regarding women serve to reinforce their inflated women-hating egos.

No doubt they can't bear the thought that a WOMAN may be more intelligent than them.

A WOMAN may be more spiritual and mature than them.

What a horrible, terrible thought for a chauvinist!

No doubt you are wondering about scriptures in the N.T that speak about woman being silent, not teaching, being in subjection etc. etc..

If you will allow me to, I will go through those scriptures in my next letter to you.

My prayer is that people be freed from the poison injected into your mind and heart, and become truly free in Christ. "Pray always" That's what Jesus said, not MB or NH. NH, MB and TA are not worth following, but Jesus Christ is.

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Re:Can women be pastors?

Date Posted:28/11/2005 2:37 PMCopy HTML


Crazy Chick - but robust yours said exactly how it is, women to be silent in the church!!!! it is for a reason god chose man to be his preachers ...

I Corinthians 14:34,35

The statement "let the women be silent in the church. . ." does not refer to women teaching. Such an understanding disregards the context in which the statement was made. A lack of decorum in the meetings was being discussed. Most of the letter is...

To summarize: LINK TO ESSAY

1. Women are allowed to speak in a church meeting according to I Cor.11.

2. They (like the men) were not permitted to disrupt the meeting by speaking out of order, or by chattering away with each other.

3. Women could prophesy, pray, and no doubt speak in other ways as well when they were recognized and had the floor.


Robust - In that post on (women preachers) I am only simply putting it as the Gospel instructs us in black & white.

Unfortunately it is not all black and white. It is red too and there are also shades of grey.

 

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Re:Can women be pastors?

Date Posted:29/11/2005 11:14 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : HolyandSinful

Crazy Chick -but robust yours said exactly how it is, women to be silent in the church!!!! it is for a reason god chose man to be his preachers ...I Corinthians 14:34,35The statement "let the women be silent in the church. . ." does not refer to women teaching.

We also used to take the scriptures about women being silent as an order for all women in the church to be quiet, not teach scripture etc and we were very critical of churches where women were given titles of pastor etc. Before I go on - I'm not interested in being called a pastor or even in having any prominent position in any church. But as I mentioned these accusations have forced me into reading what Paul said very carefully. I'm writing now because I've had a blessing in the word about it.

The key to understanding what Paul was talking about is to read the whole of 1 Corinthians 14 (as well as comparing it to what Paul said in 1 Cor 11:5) In chapter 14 Paul is talking about the operation of spiritual gifts - right in the middle he 'says' women have to be silent. Some very early manuscripts have verses 34-5 after verse 40. So if you read verses 36 to 40 straight after verse 33 the thought flows more normally. Some commentaries have suggested that verses 34-5 were margin notes that were copied from early manuscripts - which is why they appear in different places in different manuscripts.

Generally though the different commentaries said it was important to try and reproduce the situation that was happening in Corinth that gave rise to Paul saying things like this. There are a few suggestions. Women and men sat in different parts of the building so if a woman asked her husband anything she would have had to call across the room and this would have disrupted the meeting that's why Paul said they should ask their husbands at home. This is pretty much why we have baby-sitting in our meetings. Small children can be very disruptive if they talk loudly and so parents are asked to leave them with the baby-sitters.

I particularly got a blessing from First and Second Timothy because of this controversy. Robust simply quoted 1 Tim 2:11-12 and said, "There you are it's black and white. Simple." That's how I used to see it too. Last week I was reading all through Timothy 1 & 2. There are clues to what was happening all through both books. Beginning in 1 Tim 1:3 Timothy was instructed to stay in Ephesus (the place is important too) and charge some that they teach no other doctrines or give heed to fables. In verse six - some had strayed from the truth and turned aside to idle talk. 1 Tim 1:7 (desiring to be teachers of the Law but not understanding how to use it.) Now the crunch comes in 1 Tim 5:11-15 which indicates that this was particularly a problem among the women of Ephesus. Second Timothy says more about it. In 2 Timothy 2:14-26 Paul describes the whole situation. Particularly note verses 15 (an approved minister rightly divides the word of truth), 16 (to shun vain babblings that will increase to more ungodliness), 17 (their message will spread like cancer), 18 (they have strayed and overthrow the faith of some), 26 (that they have been taken captive by the devil to do his will) In 2 Timothy 3:6 For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women, loaded down with sins and led away by various lusts.

If we look at the story of Adam and Eve in the context of what Paul said in 2 Timothy 3:6 we can see it fits perfectly. In Genesis 3 God told Adam not to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge. Eve hadn't been formed then. Her knowledge of the word of God was imperfect. She told Satan, "We're not allowed to touch the tree." That wasn't what God said. She was gullible; led away, taken captive by Satan because she lusted after the knowledge of good and evil. Adam wasn't deceived by Satan - he followed his wife. It is quite possible that the doctrines Paul was dealing with in Corinth and Ephesus were gnostic teachings related to sex within marriage. (1 Cor 7; 1 Tim 5:11-15) and about the resurrection (1 Cor 15:12-19; 2 Tim 2:18) and the the women were suckered first and then convinced their husbands. Pretty much the same thing Israel was warned about in their history. How often did we hear about Phineas in the grc.

In Ephesians 2:11 and 3:1 Paul identifies the Epesians as gentiles. They were generally ignorant of the scriptures. (Timothy was in Ephesus) Furthermore Roman or Greek women were not educated at all. Let alone in scripture. It was up to the husbands to teach them (1 Cor 14:35; 1 Tim 2:11) Paul had nothing against women teaching - Timothy had presumably learned the scriptures from his mother and grandmother ( 2 Tim 1:5; 3:15). Acts 18:26 says Aquilla and Priscilla taught Apollos. In Colossians 3:16 Let the word of God dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs. and 1 Cor 14:26 is for everyone - everyone has a psalm, a teaching, a tongue, a revelation, an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification. That really summarizes it. Women were allowed to edify the church but it was the unedifying and dangerous heresies they were spreading that stirred Paul into telling Timothy that they had to be quiet. He said almost the same to Titus about certain men - Titus 1 : 10-11 - Not a single man I know who is circumsized has ever applied that verse to himself. Of course it doesn't apply to them but it's the same thing.

Anyway, like I said, I don't want to be a pastor or an elder but I enjoy reading and studying the Bible!!!

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Re:Can women be pastors?

Date Posted:29/11/2005 2:39 PMCopy HTML

Hi Brett

 

I felt that I wanted to add something to your long & thoughtful explanation into your conjecture on women preaching.

 

I just want people to bear in mind that I do not support any ones views according to either the GRC or any other revival organization but just wanted to point out an issue with women preaching & let people decide for themselves on this subject.

With all due respect to women in the modern era I did not want to intentionally divert from the natural aspects as to how woman have progressed in the 21st century but rather look at the word in its entirety according to living by the Gospel.

 

I know you (Brett) said you feel passionately about this subject & as you said it stirs you up, is it your conscience that bears this stirring up within you or is it your desire to change things according to Brett & Sabrina's way of thinking & facing adversity along the way & the challenge of convincing people to see the Gospel according to Brett & Sabrina.

Women Preachers

1. Introduction

According to the Holy Scriptures women are not allowed to preach sermons or teach in the official gatherings of the church. I will quote a few Bible texts to support this increasingly unpopular but, nevertheless, inspired directive.

1 Corinthians 14:

34: Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35: And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
36: What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
37: If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. 38: But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.


Many believers will challenge this stand. It was challenged in Paul's day. The Apostle anticipated a rejection of this teaching.

verse 36

What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?


He then goes on to say that believers who profess to have the Spirit of God should recognise and acknowledge that what he is writing is in fact the commandment of the Lord!

verse 37

If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

Conclusion

Paul's conclusion is that believers who ignore the fact that this is a commandment of God, will remain in ignorance and be ignored themselves. One can hardly imagine a more tragic outcome than to wilfully remain ignorant and be disregarded by the Almighty God.

verse 38

But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.


When writing to Timothy we find the Apostle saying virtually the same thing.

1 Timothy 2:

11: Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12: But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

13: For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14: And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression
.

2 Timothy 2:2

And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful MEN, who shall be able to teach others also.

Old & New Testament Examples
No one will doubt but that only men officiated as priests in the Temple services ordained of Almighty God. Had Jesus the Messiah intended the New Testament church to function differently he would have made that fact known by appointing at least a few women apostles. But he didn't. He chose twelve men who, later, when selecting seven deacons also chose men instead of women for those duties. These facts have a message for the church today. So take note! 

2. Are Women Inferior?

This does not mean that women are inferior to men; or that they have no place in the work of God. The Holy Scriptures provide several examples of women prophets:

  • Miriam the sister of Moses. (Exodus 15:20)
  • Deborah. (Judges 4-5)
  • Huldah the wife of Shallum. (2 Kings 22:14)
  • The four daughters of Philip the evangelist. (Acts 21:8-9)

These women obviously used the gift of prophecy to benefit the church; and their prophetic messages were listened to by all who cared to hear the Word of God spoken through them. But they did not preach nor teach in the temple or in the official Sabbath assemblies. Their prophetic messages were delivered outside the official church gatherings. That is the point Paul is making in 1 Corinthians 14:34 where he plainly states that women are not allowed to teach or preach in the churches.

"Let your women keep silence in the churches:
for it is not permitted unto them to speak;
but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law."

Bear in mind that Corinth was a city in Greece where democracy was born. But even there the Greeks had to be taught God's levels of authority, of which our misguided generation is so ignorant. The fact is: by divine command and innumerabe examples in the Scriptures, men are given more authority than women inside the Temple services and church assemblies. Men will also be held more responsible for the errors they make inside the churches. The 'church' incidentally is not a man-made building. The 'church' is the congregation that meets in a building, be it of bricks and mortar or wood.

This does not mean that men are more intelligent or able than women. They are not. We all know some folks in authority, men or women, are not always more able than those under them. Nor does it mean that women are more able than men. That also is not the case.
What it does mean is that God has given the men in His church the authority and task of preaching and teaching His Word. He has not given this authority to women no matter how qualified they may consider themselves to be. 
It is a matter of divine authority;   not personal preference, sincerity, enthusiasm, democratic expediency, intelligence or ability. It is a matter of divine authority!

Women may rise to great heights in the social or political field. Remember, one of Britain's greatest Prime Ministers (Margaret Thatcher) was a woman! But I must repeat: according to the Gospel Women are not supposed to preach or teach in the gatherings of the church when adult males are present. That is God's law. Some Church leaders ignore this divine directive at their peril.

 

Robust

Robust_18@yahoo.com.au



Message edited by: robust on 11/27/2005 10:46:14[Server Time/GMT -8 Pacific Time]

Reply from pilinut: Reply to : robust


Hi Robust, Brett's been itching to say more on this topic. I just have a question for you. You quoted 1 Corinthians 14:  34: Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. My question to you is where in the Old Testament Law is Paul quoting from? What scripture is it?

Reply: Pilinut

 

 

With all due respect to the readers of this forum I apologise for maybe some lengthy debate on certain subjects.

I am mindful that there are other issues at hand in which people wish to speak or read about instead of hearing the endless debate on a issue such as this(women preachers), it appears there may never be a final answer on the two sides of debate, but none the less, it is now up to the concerned reader to decipher which of the two conjectured views they wish to find truth in.

In conclusion to this I will make this my final post on this subject & await a possible reply from Brett;

 

 

Now the reply for Pilinut: Paul may not have been relating to scripture indirectly but if I were to make the pressumption it would be perhaps be that of Genesis 3:16 as he does not state specifically but refers as to saith the law; however, again as I said in my post relating to the position put forward on women preaching according to the Gospel woman in the Old Testiment, women DID NOT preach or teach in the official Sabbath assemblies; I hope this helps you understand, what Paul may have been referring to.

 

I suppose that relative to every truth, there are extremes. Extremes are not seen on God's part, but they enter in as a result of man. Man's failures to correctly understand and teach God's word are the product of many things. Some having a preconceived idea only use the Bible in an effort to support their belief, some approach the scriptures with attendant bad study practices, and some set out to deliberately distort the word of God

 

On one end of the spectrum, we have some teaching today that women may serve as preachers and elders in the Lord's church. The antithetical position is women are not even allowed to speak in the assembly. We are told that I Corinthians 14 verses 34, 35 this excludes even speech on the part of women who have a great knowledge of the word in the assembly, according to living by the Gospel.

 

The reason I raise this subject, is that concerned readers of this forum may have an option before making a decision based on one mans views.

Now they have something to contemplate before feeling the may want to join the Pilinuts on their venture to establish a non legalistic church on their terms & with their views in Australia.

 

 

Thank you concerned Readers

 

 

Robust

 

Robust_18@yahoo.com.au

 

I taken the liberty of moving these posts as it seems they more be more appropriate here thank you Robust

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Re:Can women be pastors?

Date Posted:29/11/2005 3:24 PMCopy HTML

If anyone actually reads the posts of others they will see that scriptures can be interpreted in many ways with different outcomes and that people who dictate absolutes often end up with egg on their faces but are too proud to admit that the yoke's on them. I think many just skip through them only so that they can reply with their opinion.

Why shouldn't women teach? I know in the education culture, that I'm a part of, the majority of TEACHERS are FEMALE and they are AWESOME at doing it!!! So, I wonder, Robust, would you allow your children to be taught by women and not men? Surely you feel that God is telling us in black and white that women should not teach and surely that logic would apply that to all teaching in life? He would be laying an example we should be living by... don't you think?

If you say that school is different to church then you do a disservice to both. At school we emphasize and teach virtues and morals - maths and english are important too, but school is so much more. What about female head of departments. All of our Religious Education teachers are female (major majority).. would you disagree with decent god-fearing parents who allow their young men and women to be taught the gospel by such women  or by Sunday School teachers for that matter. Young teenage men are taught by excellent female teachers at christian schools. Is that against the bible... is that anti-christos for a woman to be teaching at a Christian school. HUH!!!? be careful here...

The idea that the bible forbids women to teach is offensive to me, to be quite honest. It doesn't help sell the bible as a book of wisdom. The black and white verse is taken out of context by my understanding. Sometimes we are given these interpretations by studious bible interpreters and told to believe them even though deep down we know they're crap. One of the gifts of the spirit is a crap detector... even though most people's crap detectors seems to have major faults. I may not have a perfect string of scriptures to prove a point (they only get argued and ignored anyway) but I know crap when I smell it.

  • Women can't speak in the church - crap
  • Hell is a place of eternal pain and torture - crap
  • Unless you can speak in tongues you're not saved - crap
  • Christians are not allowed to drink alcohol - crap
  • Putting people out of fellowship is good for them - crap
  • Slaying in the spirit is a sound and scriptural experience - crap
  • You need to break curses set up by Satan or sins of family - crap
  • The universe was created in 7 by 24 hour days - crap
  • The great pryamid is a big homage to the bible message - crap
  • There was a worldwide flood and 8 people repopulated the earth 5000 years ago - crap

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robust Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #6
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Re:Can women be pastors?

Date Posted:29/11/2005 4:20 PMCopy HTML

Reply to Holy & Sinful:

 

Now I know I've spoken to you in recent times on your views on how to recieve salvation.

I was happy to listen & was intrigued by your insight into receiving the Holy Spirit, However I wish to let you know, as I do not disagree with you.

I have made my intentions clear to you that I am going through a learning curb at the moment & deciphering many different possibilities into many different subjects according to the bible, after being lied to & misinformed with many different GRC doctrines, I now think its good to look at things in a different light & not just except another mans views on face value.

If I may take you back to the point you made to me one night on our discussion online when I asked about your views on salvation, when explained to me briefly. I asked

Could it really be that simple to receive the Holy Spirit?

 

You in turn replied it sounds all too easy doesn't it!

 

Now if salvation is out lined that easy to receive without going into all the analytical views on how to receive the Holy Spirit.

I take it as you would imply, Salvation was meant to be made for all, easy & that it shouldn't be hard to comprehend & that the word shouldn't be taken out of context on how to make this salvation be made manifest in peoples lives.

 

If this is the case, with the simplicity implied here on receiving the Holy Spirit.

 

I do wonder if we/us & others, can also take out of context other scriptures that in their simplicity, people would like to say they state otherwise.

I say this because of my antithetical position on Women Preachers.

Why should one resort to endless analytical study to support their view, dissecting & manipulating the word to make it support their position, if in fact the word & salvation is meant to be made easy & accessible.

I know this is how you feel on tongues.

How do we interpret the bible? is it becoming a view of :

 

How do we look at the glass?

 

Do we look at it as half full?    or

 

Do we look at it as half empty?

 

Will we always sit & look at the bible as not just being Black & White text, but now look at it as having red & different shades of grey?

 

I hope you understand my point, I do appreciate the many views & positions you put forward as I do enjoy reading your post.

As I do feel your post throw a spanner in the works sometimes I suppose instead of having two surfaces to look at, along comes you to give a third dimension.

 

Anyway I look forward to the many interesting comment & insights from the H&S files.

 

 

Robust

 

Robust_18@yahoo.com.au
MothandRust Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #7
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Re:Can women be pastors?

Date Posted:29/11/2005 6:49 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : robust

I know I've spoken to you in recent times on your views on how to recieve salvation.I was happy to listen & was intrigued by your insight into receiving the Holy Spirit, However I wish to let you know, as I do not disagree with you.

You are certainly free to agree OR disagree and ENJOY your freedom to do so..  I'm not the sort of guy who admits to being wrong and I don't expect anyone else to  either. I don't think I've ever read anyone on any forum say "Oh..perhaps I'm wrong and thank you for setting me straight".

Seeing this is the women preaching thread let me add another 2 cents. I think women are getting ripped off here. Allow me to stir the pot and play devil's advocate once again.

So let me get this straight... if a woman was to preach to a man she would be violating God's law on the NT church? If she kept it up would she be in danger of hell or death?

Sent to hell for preaching the word eh... ouch. Oh God you're a hard man!

 

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Freelady Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #8
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Re:Can women be pastors?

Date Posted:29/11/2005 8:04 PMCopy HTML

I agree with Holy and Sinflul, I don? see why women should not be pastors. My church also doesn? allow women to preach during a service, I hope that someday this will change.
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

2nd Corinthians,chapter 3,17
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Re:Can women be pastors?

Date Posted:30/11/2005 8:13 PMCopy HTML

The thing is guys, u are all using the Bible as a whole rather than individual books written by individual authors.  I realise that most of you hold the Bible to be the 'word of God' and thus it's all inspired.  But the thing is, different authors have different points of view and even different beliefs.  So when Paul says he doesn't permit women to teach, you can grab verses from 2 Calathumpians or whatever to argue it, but it doesn't change the fact that Paul was a sexist apostle.  Perhaps other Apostles and Bible writers weren't so sexist and thus we see other points of view expressed in their writings.  Perhaps Paul even changed his mind later on.

Now I realise that most of you won't accept my premise as to do so would undermine the security you get from the Bible as the being the very word of God and the handbook for life, but it certainly makes far more sense this way.  The reason why the Bible makes so many contradictory statements about the role of women is because there are a myraid of views expressed in the Bible. 

The Bible is not the word of God.  It's just a collection of religious writings from the middle east.

I think women should not be pastors.  But my problem is not with women, rather it is with pastors.  I don't think anyone should be a pastor.  Man or woman.    

MothandRust Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #10
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Re:Can women be pastors?

Date Posted:30/11/2005 9:22 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : MrJonah

The Bible is not the word of God.  It's just a collection of religious writings from the middle east.

I like it how you make these statements as though they are facts, and not opinions... and at the risk of facing your wrath I'll reply.

Perhaps one day I'll go down your road and label the 66 books as a random mess of fairy-tales... perhaps I won't. It's definitely a diverse text written by approximately 33? different writers of many styles. I would be worried more if it was just one writer (albeit I do believe it to be mostly written under inspiration - as crazy as that sounds... yep, I acknowledge that). And I see the contradictions, but I gotta keep in mind that print is a fallible medium and the text has been dragging itself around for thousands of years. God should be able to keep it completely intact though, seeing he's so big and stuff eh? ... well you'd think this planet would be in perfect condition as well.. but it's not... we have been messing it up ourselves. 

I think my original post on this thread fits. I think Paul was quoting and questioning a sexist part of a letter from the Corinthian church. It may be CRAP too but I think it fits.

"But the thing is, different authors have different points of view and even different beliefs"  - Isn't that part of the beauty of it? That different personalities are highlighted in the books. There's a pool of thought that the 4 gospels represent four different, yet mostly harmonious, and interconnected perspectives on the gospel based on the 4 living creatures in Rev 4:7 -

  • Matthew (writes with a human view - Jesus as the perfect man and second Adam)
  • Mark - Lion (The royal sovreign Jesus)
  • Luke - ox (Jesus as the humble servant)
  • John -eagle (Jesus the spiritual man from heaven)

I agree... I have a problem with pastors and church leaders and I think any church is a cult in the broad-stroked continuum of churchyness.

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Re:Can women be pastors?

Date Posted:01/12/2005 5:59 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : HolyandSinful

I like it how you make these statements as though they are facts, and not opinions... and at the risk of facing your wrath I'll reply.
Strange Days are here. I'm agreeing with H&S - twice in one week! Mr J. We have been anticipating that you would come back with an attack on the sovereignity of Christ ever since I replied to you that you don't believe it a couple of days ago.
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Re:Can women be pastors?

Date Posted:01/12/2005 6:50 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : pilinut

 Mr J. We have been anticipating that you would come back with an attack on the sovereignity of Christ ever since I replied to you that you don't believe it a couple of days ago.
Attack, attack, grr grrr.  Quick call the Pope!  I told you from the start I am not a Christian.
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Re:Can women be pastors?

Date Posted:01/12/2005 7:57 AMCopy HTML

I also think you could be more Christian (used as noun) than most Bible following Christians.  You might not even have heard of bible or jesus but you still can have fruits of the spirit.  If truth was in god then it is not propritory property of some book.  And if one thinks that bible is the word or god then does not that word of god tell that letter (words) kills but spirit gives life. 

I had once asked a question to our pastor (GRC), how about those who never knew jesus or bible existed and have all the fruits of the spirit, do you consider them as the one who have received the spirit ?   No answer received.

Christianity (bible) was used by westerners to dominate the world and to justify their war mongering and slavery.  It is better for the world to throw away that letter that kills.

Uncoolman Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #14
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Re:Can women be pastors?

Date Posted:17/03/2007 9:51 AMCopy HTML

unkoolman,

 

my post.Question was not women being pastors its women preaching similar but also quite different. Once again this is an issue for revers and ex revers

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Re:Can women be pastors?

Date Posted:17/03/2007 9:01 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : earth5



unkoolman,my post.Question was not women being pastors its women preaching similar but also quite different. Once again this is an issue for revers and ex revers





Search your heart, that still small voice inside, the conviction that makes us feel guilt deep down inside of us. We all have it, even if we do not speak in tongues.

What does it tell you?

Men do not give birth, Woman do.
God has given the two sexes different roles, even the shape of our body tells you that.
If God says men do this, woman do that and we believe him, who are we to construct clever arguements for or against?

What does your heart tell you deep down inside? If it is wrong, do not do it!

What does your heart feel deep down about a woman usurping authority by teaching over a man in church?

If it is wrong do not do it.
cultivation leads to cultevasion -
don"t reap what they sow!
MothandRust Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #16
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Re:Can women be pastors?

Date Posted:17/03/2007 9:39 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : cultevasion

Search your heart, that still small voice inside, the conviction that makes us feel guilt deep down inside of us. We all have it, even if we do not speak in tongues.What does it tell you?Men do not give birth, Woman do.God has given the two sexes different roles, even the shape of our body tells you that.If God says men do this, woman do that and we believe him, who are we to construct clever arguements for or against?What does your heart tell you deep down inside? If it is wrong, do not do it!What does your heart feel deep down about a

At the school where I teach we have a female principal and a female deputy principal. Our head of curriculum is female and all of the admin staff as well. They have authority over the men there and I see many other schools with the same hierachal system. It works. Of course it works... Cripes, sometimes the very best man for the job is a woman.

And guess what... my and these schools are tremendously successful and it's perfectly natural. In fact the majority of teachers are female. Don't sell women short... and don't sell men short either! We can easily let a women have authority over us without breaking down into sobbing messes of inferiority. There's equality in the real world, but not in the archaic ethics of the bible where the more facial hair you have the more power you should be allowed. Perhaps things would have worked out better for Israel with a little more girl power.

Having bigger biceps does not a leader make. Paul got it wrong... but that's ok.. he's male.

[LINK SiteName=Mothrust: Movies and Modern Myth Target=_blank]http://aintchristian.blogspot.com.au/[/LINK] Be nice, for everyone that you meet is fighting a harder battle - Anita Roddick
old holborn Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #17
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Re:Can women be pastors?

Date Posted:18/03/2007 6:27 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : cultevasion

Search your heart, that still small voice inside, the conviction that makes us feel guilt deep down inside of us. We all have it, even if we do not speak in tongues.What does it tell you?Men do not give birth, Woman do.God has given the two sexes different roles, even the shape of our body tells you that.If God says men do this, woman do that and we believe him, who are we to construct clever arguements for or against?What does your heart tell you deep down inside? If it is wrong, do not do it!What does your heart feel deep down about a

Some of the best preachers I've heard  since leaving have been women. Very uplifting and without the usual bombastic, judgemental, elitist rubbish I was fed for so long. As usual Moth , who confesses not to believe,  has laid out the correct  Biblical instruction, Who do you want to believe, the warped and twisted, biased teaching of a few proven cultists, or the accepted authenticated teaching of the majority of scholars.

Search your hear trather.

"But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord "
micr0s0ft Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #18
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Re:Can women be pastors?

Date Posted:18/03/2007 6:25 PMCopy HTML

I must say this is an excellent topic and has inspired me to read all of Corinthians and Timothy and take everything into context.

I think pilinut and robust are on the right track though.

But, I can see moth and rusts point of view, infact it can be quite valid. HOWEVER.. There hasn't been female priests back in the day, the apostles weren't female, bishops/elders weren't female... so why now?

When Paul writes in Corinthians about women not having/teaching authority over the man... there is no way you can re-translate that, it's totally black and white with no grey area to wonder...

ON THE OTHER HAND... I've spoken to some women with excellent preaching abilities who know their scriptures and have given me great encouragement/inspiration...

 

 

MothandRust Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #19
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Re:Can women be pastors?

Date Posted:18/03/2007 7:38 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : micr0s0ft

I must say this is an excellent topic and has inspired me to read all of Corinthians and Timothy and take everything into context.I think pilinut and robust are on the right track though.But, I can see moth and rusts point of view, infact it can be quite valid.

But, but but... there's always buts hey? It wasn't long ago women weren't even allowed to vote! Times change and you've got to really understand the culture at the time of writing. Jesus was actually a radical in the way he treated women and involved women. You might find the following link an interesting read:

Should a woman serve as a pastor?

The Jewish Culture-- In Jewish law a woman was considered property rather than a person. She was not allowed to study the Law. They were shut apart from the men so they could not be seen.  They couldn't participate in the synagogue services or attend the sacred feasts and festivals. Nor could she teach the children in any formal manner, which we all know is not they way society operates today.

The duty of a good Jewish woman was to send her sons to the synagogue, to attend domestic concerns, to leave her husband free to study the scriptures, and to keep house until he returned (William Barclay, The Letters to Timothy, Titus, and Philemon, rev. ed. pp. 66-67).

The Greek Culture-- The Greeks as a whole held a low view of women.  There were women priestesses in the Greek religions, but these women were most often sacred prostitutes.  Proper Greek women were confined to their quarters; they never went in public alone and never attended public assemblies.  Women's purpose was essentially to serve their husbands  (Ibid. pp. 67-68).

Jesus' Response-- When we turn to good ol' Jesus, it is clear that he disregarded the common practice of the Jews and Greeks and extended his ministry and message to women.

Jesus, contrary to custom, talked with and taught women.  He taught the Samaritan woman at the well (Jn. 4:27).  Jesus talked publicly with the unclean woman who touched his cloak (Mt. 9:20-22).  When he taught and fed the multitudes, women were in the crowd (Matt. 14:13-21 & Mk 6:30-44).  When he healed a Canaanite woman's daughter, he talked to her in public (Matt. 15:22).  He commended Mary for listening to his teaching when Martha complained that she wasn't helping with the housework (Lk. 10:38-42).

Contrary to custom, Jesus allowed women to be deeply involved in his ministry.  The gospels record that there were women who traveled with him to assist in his work.  The gospels do not tell us all of their names, but included in this group of women were Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Susanna, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph (Lk. 8:1-3 & Matt. 27:55-56).

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Uncoolman Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #20
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Re:Can women be pastors?

Date Posted:22/03/2007 6:27 PMCopy HTML

so cult evasion what exactly are you trying to say????
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Re:Can women be pastors?

Date Posted:25/03/2007 8:39 PMCopy HTML

Yes women can be and should be pastors in the true sense of the word pastor.

Pastors don't need to preach, do they?

miss molly Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #22
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Re:Can women be pastors?

Date Posted:21/06/2007 3:55 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : cultevasion

Search your heart, that still small voice inside, the conviction that makes us feel guilt deep down inside of us. We all have it, even if we do not speak in tongues.What does it tell you?Men do not give birth, Woman do.God has given the two sexes different roles, even the shape of our body tells you that.If God says men do this, woman do that and we believe him, who are we to construct clever arguements for or against?What does your heart tell you deep down inside? If it is wrong, do not do it!What does your heart feel deep down about a
My heart tells me, deep down inside, that you could possibly be male.
RCI prophesies
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