Good morning, Ralph.

Just as a point of critique, in the previous verses Jesus surely tells us that through him there is life if sheep enter the gate. Those that listen to him are given eternal life and remain in safety and nothing can take them away. In verses 17,18, we read that Jesus lay down his life and took it up again on his own accord and God gave him the authority to do just that. Cannot a person that is a believer at one time be granted eternal life, has authority like Christ, to lay it down again of their own accord and in doing so, forfeit their own salvation? Whatever gave you that idea?! To be perfectly blunt, what you've suggested misses the mark on several levels, not the least of which is that it isn't based in any way on even a straightforward reading of the text, never mind a theological one. Here's my reasoning: the entire point of John 10:1-18 revolves around Jesus describing his role and mission (i.e. his intrinsic authority) by contrasting its effects to those of the religious authorities of his day (i.e. their extrinsic authority). Please note, particularly, the impact of verse 9.

Verses 17 and 18 properly describes Jesus' self-sacrifice to effect atonement with God, the Father. And this self-sacrifice was efficacious because Jesus is God, himself. So I find myself asking, how on earth can one allegorise this passage to come up with the idea that Christians can 'lay down their eternal lives' based on Christ's example of effecting atonement? Quite simply there are no points-of-comparison. Believers aren't God. Believers can't effect atonement through their actions. Believers have no intrinsic authority, and believers don't own eternal life.

Blessings,

Ian

Hi, Ralph.

OK, I knew it was dumb before I posted it but I'm sure there is nobody on here, perhaps maybe one, that has an opposing view that could challenge the view on the election doctrine. I personally don't believe Eric quite there yet. However, I heartily invite him to give it his best effort ("iron sharpens iron", after all). Obviously, I'm willing to critically debate theology with him as I was his understanding of Greek. As you may recall he completely misunderstood what I wrote concerning the punctiliar effect of one aorist verb used in the Gospel According to John (https://revival.aimoo.com/topic/John_20__the_apostles_and_the_Holy_Spirit-564489-12089-1). He concluded I believed all aorist verbs have punctiliar force, all of the time; a 'rookie' mistake on his part. Anyway ...

Can I assume that the various points you ended your post with were Eric's challenges to you? FWIW I didn't find any of them to be particularly decisive arguments, but quite the opposite. They once again demonstrated a simplistic (almost mechanical) understanding of Greek grammar, and a rudimentary grasp of historical theology. Each to his own, I guess.

Blessings,

Ian

I love the RCi song book , don't need loud music rock band style with teaching, to come to church, ultimately I left down town Brisbane under Doctor death ray Darcy, not because they asked me to leave, because to many times we were told a sin is not a sin if we say so, tell a lie is not a sin, Adultry is so please go, after 25 years there as a fornicator while married, I decided to leave, never telling anyone that, I have been a sinner, it was the only place I could go to talk to God in a worship place, I was under the impression that all thought of sinning would leave me when I first went there, but no, they still attack me daily, Oh dear lord God, Jesus, when will these evil thought of sin leave me, I am tormented daily of never being good enough, Iam a slave for helping others, and as such I thank God for that, for there is no rest as my mind fights every day to stay alive, Ahhhhh those train wheels would be a good source to this flesh, and lusting of this world body, some how I manage to stay alive for another day, oh death where are you as I cry out for you to come, I wait each day to be taken but the good god has other thing planned for me.

As a good soldier, of speaking to God each day, I will stand to attention on that great day of atonement, plead guilty to god the judge, and have no excuse for my actions, I take responsibility for what I have done on this earth, and ask god daily to have mercy on me in that great day of truths, that for one day of my life my mind will not wonder of sinning thoughts, as I stand before my god, waiting for judgement, knowing that I could not have made the cut, I lean over to the guy next to me and say what's your excuse Darcy as he wonders what on earth did he do wrong.

The fight continues, the mind loves god, but the fleshly lusts love this world, as I sell off my assets down size, leave the gadgets behind , loose TV I get a bit closer to the Truth, and so shall it be, I pine for that day I can say, it's a good day to live, he loved god so much that he took he own life, not knowing if he could be forgiven, Judas my friend I am behind your way of thinking.

Good love to all