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Didaktikon
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Date Posted:24/05/2013 11:33 PMCopy HTML

Every Revivalist sect teaches that one must constantly strive in order to have the opportunity to 'meet the Lord in the air'. Disregarding for the moment their deficient understanding of salvation, Revivalism teaches that assurance is not and cannot be certain in this life. To those who follow Lloyd Longfield's dogma, eternal life, once gained, can be forfeited.

I would argue that the Christian Bible overwhelmingly teaches the opposite, that eternal life is a gracious and free gift that isn't dependent in any way on human striving or effort in order to be effective.

So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one.” John 10:24-30, ESV

Blessings,

Ian


email: didaktikon@gmail.com
Biblianut Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #1
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Re:Can 'salvation' be forfeited?

Date Posted:25/05/2013 2:21 PMCopy HTML

Ian,

Just as a point of critique, in the previous verses Jesus surely tells us that through him there is life if sheep enter the gate. Those that listen to him are given eternal life and remain in safety and nothing can take them away. In verses 17,18, we read that Jesus lay down his life and took it up again on his own accord and God gave him the authority to do just that. Cannot a person that is a believer at one time be granted eternal life, has authority like Christ, to lay it down again of their own accord and in doing so, forfeit their own salvation?

Ralph.
I believe in Christianity as I believe the sun has risen; not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else. C.S.Lewis.
Didaktikon Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #2
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Re:Can 'salvation' be forfeited?

Date Posted:25/05/2013 11:15 PMCopy HTML

Good morning, Ralph.

Just as a point of critique, in the previous verses Jesus surely tells us that through him there is life if sheep enter the gate. Those that listen to him are given eternal life and remain in safety and nothing can take them away. In verses 17,18, we read that Jesus lay down his life and took it up again on his own accord and God gave him the authority to do just that. Cannot a person that is a believer at one time be granted eternal life, has authority like Christ, to lay it down again of their own accord and in doing so, forfeit their own salvation? I'd suggest that yours isn't really a point of 'critique' as much as it is a misunderstanding based on was is an illegitimate approach to the act of interpretation. To be perfectly blunt, what you've suggested misses the mark on several levels, not the least of which is that it isn't based in any way on even a straightforward reading of the text, never mind a theological one. Here's my reasoning: the entire point of John 10:1-18 revolves around Jesus describing his role and mission (i.e. his intrinsic authority) by contrasting its effects to those of the religious authorities of his day (i.e. their extrinsic authority). Please note, particularly, the impact of verse 9.

Verses 17 and 18 properly describes Jesus' self-sacrifice to effect atonement with God, the Father. And this self-sacrifice was efficacious because Jesus is God, himself. So I find myself asking, how on earth can one allegorise this passage to come up with the idea that Christians can 'lay down their eternal lives' based on Christ's example of effecting atonement? Quite simply there are no points-of-comparison. Believers aren't God. Believers can't effect atonement through their actions. Believers have no intrinsic authority, and believers don't own eternal life.

Blessings,

Ian
email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:Can 'salvation' be forfeited?

Date Posted:26/05/2013 2:49 AMCopy HTML

Ian,

All points taken.

OK, I knew it was dumb before I posted it but I'm sure there is nobody on here, perhaps maybe one, that has an opposing
view that could challenge the view on the election doctrine. I personally haven't an issue with it (can we forfeit our….),
though some points I am still dealing with a 'pure' Calvinistic approach. However, for the sake of discussion, here are
some of the opposing views I get from Arminianism.

Ralph

1.“ I am not a five point Calvinist !!!  and I repeat I am NOT a five point Calvinist … When Christ died, He did not die
 just for the elect. When Christ died, He died for the whole world…” (Chuck Swindoll)

2.“By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen
with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal
damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestined
to life or to death ..” Institutes Book III, Chapter 23..

3.Salvation applies into two different time realms. These are the “now” and the “not yet” …  I leave this with you on your
study of σωτηρια – soteria (rescue, safety etc.)  for yourself.

When it comes to “predestination” , the Bible is really talking around the fact that Jesus is THE Predestined One and
contrary to the Calvin view that election is “unconditional” , the New Testament is choc of block full of conditional
statements (εαν) and that condition as being “ εν Χριστω – IN Christ “ .. Election is conditional upon BEING IN CHRIST..
Calvinism likes to quote Paul to support their thesis that election is individual rather than corporate (or a body) by
proof texting from Romans but in all cases Calvinists fail to grasp that the persons mentioned (Abraham, Isaac and Jacob)
are in fact “covenant identifiers” and that Paul is using these particular persons as models or types of Christ. Therefore
 Jesus Christ becomes OUR “covenant identifier” .. therefore election becomes corporate as a single body IN CHRIST.. God
identifies US as a single corporate body. What Calvinism fails in general to catch on to is the fact that 99.99% of
writings centre upon the work and person of Christ..

John Calvin was for his time a very radical forerunner for the theology of that era in Church History.
And he did open up the Bible for the church in what was new and innovative so that men could question and explore theology
in a more open way and among themselves as men and women of God. E.g. the Calvinist view on the sovereignty of God .
Alas no one is perfect ..
I believe in Christianity as I believe the sun has risen; not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else. C.S.Lewis.
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Re:Can 'salvation' be forfeited?

Date Posted:26/05/2013 3:15 AMCopy HTML

If one follows Arminianistic view that it is conditional one inherits eternal life, then it is possible that gift will be
forfeited by falling away. Then there's the question; would God take away a 'gift' from one that he has given it to?
I wouldn't,  so does that make me better than God? Heaven forbid.

You be the judge. http://www.epm.org/static/uploads/downloads/Extent_of_the_Atonement_by_Bruce_Ware.pdf
I believe in Christianity as I believe the sun has risen; not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else. C.S.Lewis.
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Re:Can 'salvation' be forfeited?

Date Posted:26/05/2013 4:26 AMCopy HTML

Hi, Ralph.

OK, I knew it was dumb before I posted it but I'm sure there is nobody on here, perhaps maybe one, that has an opposing view that could challenge the view on the election doctrine. I personally don't believe he's quite there yet. However, I heartily invite him to give it his best effort ("iron sharpens iron", after all). Obviously, I'm willing to critically debate the theology, as I was the Greek.

Can I assume that the various points you ended your post with were his challenges to you? FWIW I didn't find any of them to be particularly decisive arguments, but quite the opposite. They demonstrated a simplistic (almost mechanical) understanding of Greek grammar, and a rudimentary grasp of historical theology. Each to his own, I guess.

Blessings,

Ian
email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:Can 'salvation' be forfeited?

Date Posted:03/06/2013 1:34 PMCopy HTML

I love the RCi song book , don't need loud music rock band style with teaching, to come to church, ultimately I left down town Brisbane under Doctor death ray Darcy, not because they asked me to leave, because to many times we were told a sin is not a sin if we say so, tell a lie is not a sin, Adultry is so please go, after 25 years there as a fornicator while married, I decided to leave, never telling anyone that, I have been a sinner, it was the only place I could go to talk to God in a worship place, I was under the impression that all thought of sinning would leave me when I first went there, but no, they still attack me daily, Oh dear lord God, Jesus, when will these evil thought of sin leave me, I am tormented daily of never being good enough, Iam a slave for helping others, and as such I thank God for that, for there is no rest as my mind fights every day to stay alive, Ahhhhh those train wheels would be a good source to this flesh, and lusting of this world body, some how I manage to stay alive for another day, oh death where are you as I cry out for you to come, I wait each day to be taken but the good god has other thing planned for me.

As a good soldier, of speaking to God each day, I will stand to attention on that great day of atonement, plead guilty to god the judge, and have no excuse for my actions, I take responsibility for what I have done on this earth, and ask god daily to have mercy on me in that great day of truths, that for one day of my life my mind will not wonder of sinning thoughts, as I stand before my god, waiting for judgement, knowing that I could not have made the cut, I lean over to the guy next to me and say what's your excuse Darcy as he wonders what on earth did he do wrong.

The fight continues, the mind loves god, but the fleshly lusts love this world, as I sell off my assets down size, leave the gadgets behind , loose TV I get a bit closer to the Truth, and so shall it be, I pine for that day I can say, it's a good day to live, he loved god so much that he took he own life, not knowing if he could be forgiven, Judas my friend I am behind your way of thinking.

Good love to all

Godspeed Apprentice Spirit searcher
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Re:Can 'salvation' be forfeited?

Date Posted:04/06/2013 12:41 AMCopy HTML

Hi Ned,

If you read the story of Martin Luther, he also found he was troubled with living 'unremittent spiritual conflict', that is,
a sense of unworthiness in the sight of God's righteousness. We are unable to move towards God for fear of judgement.
Like Luther, the justice of God can be a stumbling block to us, if we regard it as the 'condemning' judgement of God. We
must see that justice is not divine judgement but a gift of grace. The purpose of this spiritual conflict is to make us
rely on grace alone. God gives righteousness. This divine righteousness was revealed in the work of Christ and received by
faith (Read Romans). Even after this righteousness of Christ has been received [and contrary to Revivalist teaching], we are
not righteous. (Sourced from  The Reformation. RTC studies.Lecturer H. DeWaard)

Christ paid the ultimate sacrifice so that by God's grace we have our salvation. It is a free gift and we cannot do
anything of ourselves. IT IS A FREE GIFT!

Leave the heresy of Revival, which is a "smoke screen" that "clouds" grace and move on in the faith that Jesus has given.
You are saved in Christ, so be it you continue to live in him.

Ralph
I believe in Christianity as I believe the sun has risen; not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else. C.S.Lewis.
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