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MothandRust
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Date Posted:09/12/2007 1:28 AMCopy HTML

 

Barry & Anne

               Cabooter

 

                    Interviewed by Troy Waller

               in Port Lincoln, South Australia

                             30 October l993

A:         Well it's about the history of the original Port Lincoln Revival Centre, and it really begins with Len Day.  Len Day was a man of the world, who, according to his own testimony, had broken all the commandments, and he talked about wine and women and all that sort of thing.  Len got hurt - and he also raced cars - he got hurt badly in a racing accident.  His legs were broken in 26 places, and plus there was a lot more wrong with him.  So they stuck him in the mortuary thinking that he would never make it.  Besides, they said "Well, even if there was hope, we don't know his blood group, so that's it."  And this corpse sat up and said "My blood group is..." whatever it was.  So then they took him out of, out of the mortuary, in hospital, mended his legs.  When he came out he was different because he had blackouts all the time.  And there was a man, Lloyd Longfield - I think it was Lloyd Longfield.  You know of him?  Well he did some work for him.  Clay.

 

T:         Jack Clay.

 

A:         Jack Clay.  Um, I'm not sure, but it could be him.  But anyway,  Len did some work for him and he had a blackout.  So then, that person - Jack Clay or whoever it was - witnessed to him.

 

T:         Is this in Geelong?

 

A:         This is in Geelong, yeah.  This uh, Len uh, he witnessed to Len, but Len wouldn't have a bar of religion - even swore.  So off that person went.  Six weeks later he came back.  Now that having prayed about it and everything, and he said how Len was, he asked how Len was, and Len said he was fine, and then he collapsed, so he wasn't so fine.  And so Jack - I'll, I'll pick him out of the bunch - Jack said "Look, let me tell you the gospel.  If you then don't want it, OK, that's your choice then.  But I know that the Lord can heal you."  And eventually Len agreed, but for a matter of security he took his brother-in-law along and that's Peter Mullen.  Last I heard he had an assembly somewhere in Tasmania.

 

T:         How do you spell his - Peter Mullen?

 

A:         M-U-L-L-

 

T:         E-N probably.

 

A:         E-N or A-N - I'm not sure about that.

 

T:         Was this back - this is when they were still Revival Crusade, was it?

 

A:         Revival Centre.  Well, I think it was Revival Centre - it was Geelong Revival Centre.  They, as far as I know, they had just had the split with Leo Harris.

 

T:         Right, OK.

 

A:         Right?  You're aware of that.  Peter Mullen was his brother-in-law.  Peter Mullen was also a communist, a shop steward.  So, well they had been trained into asking and boycotting Christians.  So Jack started to proclaim the gospel and no sooner had he started off Peter said "But I have some questions."  And they said "Well, just hear me out, and then you can ask your questions."  So Jack proclaimed the gospel, and by that time all Peter's questions had been answered without having been asked.  And it made a great impression on Len, and he thought - he looked at the stars when he was home - and he thought about this God that must be there.  Anyway, he came in, was healed of his blackouts.  He was healed so properly, that later on he could afford to buy a plane, which you don't get a licence if you suffer from blackouts.  And he flew that plane all over the place.  And, anyhow, he got busy in the Lord's work, and one day the Lord said to him "Go ye into the dry and barren places."  And he thought spiritually dry and barren, so he went all around Geelong, all around Victoria.  No doors were open.  At the same time when all this happened there was a girl in the assembly and her name was Janette McConarchy.  And she had relations in Ceduna, which is up the West Coast here - our West Coast, not your West Coast.  And she had relations, and she had been over with her mother - they were both in, in the uh, Geelong assembly.  And they had witnessed to their relations, and had made such an impression that those people said "If anybody comes along, uh, they're welcome."  So that message was passed onto Len, and eventually Len went there.  And he took a tape - uh, a T. L. Osborn tape.  Yeah?

 

T:         Yeah.

 

A:         (It meant something).  And, thinking he'd show that to him.  And then he took one look at the place when he arrived there and he thought, that's the dry and barren places because the place is dry and barren literally.  And when he saw how small it was, he thought "Oh well, we might as well show the tape to the whole village."  And so he did, and before he...

 

T:         Was it an audio?  Or, uh, was it a film, or...?

 

A:         Um, well, a film, yeah.

 

T:         A film, yeah.

 

A:         A film.  Sorry, in those days there were no videos.  And this was - must have been in `58, I think.  And at the end of the meeting - he couldn't help himself - he made an appeal and found himself with six converts.  And that's where a problem started because what are you going to do with six converts, in a place where all the churches are dead, and you live thousands of miles away?

 

T:         Are you sure that was about, are you sure that was l958?

 

A:         Pretty sure, yeah.  Because Len was here in `59.  I got converted in `59.  And they'd just started public meetings.

 

T:         Because they didn't split with Leo Harris until `59.

 

A:         Right.  Well, then it was still one lot.  I, I wouldn't know that.  I wouldn't, I wouldn't argue about that.

 

T:         Sure.  I know it - I'm just trying to clarify it in my own mind.

 

A:         Yeah, yeah.  I know that before - anyway I'll, I'll just go a little bit further and then come back on Leo Harris.  Um, so Len finished up putting a manager in his business and then came over to Ceduna.  And on his way to Ceduna he went and saw Leo Harris to ask did he have any claims on this area.  And Leo didn't.  So, he did the right thing and so that sounds like they were still one lot.

 

T:         Leo was based in Adelaide was he?

 

A:         Yeah, yes.  And so Len went with his wife, took care of those converts and ran into severe difficulties because this lot - who'd ever heard such a stupid thing.  They were all set in their ways in the churches.  And suddenly comes this fellow from Victoria and turns, turns the world upside down.  He wasn't very popular and neither was his wife, and yet, Len...

 

T:         What was his wife's name?  Can you remember?

 

A:         Joan. 

 

T:         Joan.

 

A:         Len and Joan.  Um, it came to the point when they would no longer serve them in the shops and they talked about running them out of town, tarring and feathering them, which was a thing to do, you know, and they said "Oh well, too bad, we go to the next place."  See, he came from Victoria where everything is close.  Well there was no next place of any significance.  So finally he came to Lincoln, and that's what, 200 miles?

 

B:         Portland.

 

A:         Ceduna...

 

B:         ...kilometres.

 

A:         Yeah.

 

B:         And...

 

A:         Two hundred and something miles.

 

B:         Yeah.

 

A:         Anyway.  And found himself a job with Blacker Motors, and couldn't keep his mouth shut, of course - not that he was such a, a pusher to always having to spread the gospel, he was very gentle, but he would speak up.  And before he knew where he was, he had some converts here.  And, well what do you do?  Because it was too much, it - before you could say "boo", we had an assembly here, and how do you run two assemblies?  That's too much by car, so he bought himself a plane, had some hairy experiences.  So for a while he ran the two assemblies, then bit by bit all the members of that assembly came down and joined us.  And it was truly a lovely assembly, and it was closeness, and it...

 

T:         Where did they meet in Port Lincoln?

 

A:         The, the first meeting place that I can remember was in the District Council Hall.  Have you got a camera with you?

 

T:         No I haven't.

 

A:         I'll take photos of...

 

T:         Oh, actually, I have.  I have got a...

 

A:         Yeah.

 

T:         A camera, yeah.  I've got my mate's camera, I'll take some photos.

 

A:         They, um, that, that's the first one in the District Council Hall, and it was simply not District, Port Lincoln District Council Hall.  Uh, nothing was set up for meetings, it was just a place to meet and we also met a lot in homes - anybody's home was open - and then I think you went to the first public meeting and it was in the RSL Hall.

 

B:         Yeah.

 

A:         And they'd just started.

 

B:         I was taken by a friend I used to work with, and he had heard about it through an architect who was suicidal, and, uh he went with Len Day for, for a flight in his plane and where he admitted that he, uh, thought about committing suicide.  And, uh, Len Day talked him out of it, and he told him about the Lord, he gave his heart to the Lord, and that architect told, uh, my partner - at the time he was a brick layer - about it and I was so impressed that we went to, to the first meeting which, uh, was quite new to us because we hadn't been near a church for about 40 years.

 

A:         Yeah.

 

B:         Thereabouts.  And, uh, we were quite impressed.  We met a,  another couple of Dutch people that had joined there before, a couple of days before, and uh, that's how it all started.

 

T:         Mm.

 

A:         As far as my testimony goes, um, Len spoke the Word, and I thought "Oh, that sounds lovely."  He gave his testimony and he supported it with scriptures, and I thought "Well, some people have faith, others haven't, and it would be just nice to have faith, wouldn't it?"  I never, see, that's how little I knew then.

 

T:         Was this at the RSL Hall?

 

A:         No, that was in our own home.  And from there on, as far as I was concerned, the Lord took things in His own hands, opened my eyes.  During the night I had a dream that I received the Holy Spirit, wondered was I, what I was going to say, and all I, all that came out was "Waa", and the next morning I thought, "If that is true, I want it."  And I told the Lord that.  And I remember what they told us - "Repent, be baptized, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."  So repent - nobody had majored on that - um, to me meant, you lined up all your sins and you brought them before the Lord.  So I said I've done this, and that and that and that.  And immediately I got an answer - flashed on the screen was the parable of the sower and the seed, with a question, what kind of plant did I want to be?  I said, "Well, good ground of course."  That was simple.  That was it.  Went about my work...

 

T:         On the screen, was this...

 

A:         No on, on the screen in my head.

 

T:         Oh, in your dream.

 

A:         Yeah.  Right?  Uh, I went and washed nappies and suddenly my eyes were opened, and in no uncertain terms I could see who Jesus was.  That was my big problem.  Um, I had some Sunday School, but they hadn't made clear who Jesus was.  Then I saw that Jesus was the one around who everything evolved - He was the centre of all time and eternity, He was the truth.  And see, I wasn't looking for God, but I was looking for the truth.  And so that was my testimony, and well, we increased rapidly in the assembly, we had a baptismal service every fortnight.  The night we were baptized there were two others, so four people were baptized, that was on 12th of July 1959, and so it kept on going.  Um...

 

T:         What sort of, um, with regards to the altar call or calls for salvation - because the Revival Centre now preach that until you are baptized and filled with the Holy Spirit, you're not saved.

 

A:         Yes.  They did that then, too.

 

T:         They did that then.

 

A:         Yeah, yeah.

 

T:         Right, so until you spoke in tongues you weren't considered a Christian back then, or...?

 

A:         Well, well there was an intermediate stage, as it were, um, we didn't argue about it, we didn't, we were on our way, and if we're not filled with the Spirit today, well, tomorrow or next week.  That, that was no problem - we didn't feel "Oh, God will I make it?"  It wasn't like that - we were all very, very happy.

 

B:         We used to have prayer meetings at homes.

 

A:         Yeah.

 

B:         Especially for the purpose of people seeking for the infilling of the Holy Spirit.  It happened, and many of them received the Holy Spirit in...

 

A:         Yeah.

 

B:         In our home.

 

A:         Yeah.  More than anywhere else, actually.

 

B:         Yeah.

 

T:         So was salvation, salvation faith in Christ?  Is that how you were saved, by believing in Jesus, is that what they preached?  Or did they preach this Acts 2:38, "Repent, be baptized, filled with the Holy Spirit".

 

A:         That was very prominent.

 

B:         Yeah.

 

A:         That was very prominent.  Yeah.  And so, there may have been Christians elsewhere in Port Lincoln.

 

T:         With an altar call, say at the end of a service, if you made a bit for people to give their lives to the Lord or to come to Jesus.

 

A:         That was not said.

 

B:         No.

 

A:         I remember that.  That's not how they put it.  Because we didn't hear about that until some generations later - somebody went to the West, also to preach the gospel and um, he came back with the story - that was just before we joined as an assembly - we joined the CRC, because Len had gone away to preach elsewhere - and um, he came back with stories of people giving their heart to the Lord, which was a new expression to us, and having a real experience.

 

T:         And what did he have to say about that?

 

A:         Oh, he was happy about that.

 

T:         Len was?

 

A:         No, no, Len wasn't there then.  Because, anyway, let's go with the, uh, history of the assembly.  He went for maybe two years, but everybody in the Revival Centre always had itchy feet.  You had to go out and preach the gospel, and of course, we had run out of contacts.  We tackled anybody - "Don't you come and visit me, the Lord has brought you here, sit down and listen to me!"  That's how it was, wasn't it Barry?

 

B:         Oh, yes.

 

A:         In those days.  And of course it doesn't take you long to run out of contact, uh, contacts, and um, so we kept on going, and then Len felt a call to move on, and he went to Broken Hill.

 

T:         What year was that?  Can you remember?

 

B:         `62.

 

A:         No, `60.

 

B:         `60.  That's it.

 

A:         `60

 

T:         So can you remember, so what year were you saved?

 

A:         `59.

 

T:         `59.  So can you remember the split from the CRC to the Revival Centre?  Can you remember when Len and Lloyd and...

 

A:         No, no, no, no.  Because we were, we were very, uh, well we were on our own, that may have happened in our time, but well we were...

 

B:         But there was friction right from the beginning.

 

A:         Yeah, we were aware of that, we heard that.

 

B:         Yes, there was snips of it.

 

A:         Yeah.

 

B:         And there was some...

 

T:         Can you tell me about what you used to hear?

 

B:         Well, well, not exactly what was said, there was some uh, uh, something that Harris had claimed that was not true, and that type of thing.

 

A:         Yeah.

 

B:         And, uh...

 

T:         Who there claimed it wasn't true?

 

B:         Yes, but Lloyd from Geelong had said that what Harris claimed wasn't so, and they had a bit of a division between Harris and Lloyd.  Uh, Harris had an, had a dream that he was standing on New Zealand and on the continents.  And the Lord said, or he claimed that the Lord told him that that was his, and I don't why the, the division, but uh we, we never got into that, really.

 

A:         No, we were at, at that baby stage, we were not aware of that.  But if you want to read about that, there's a book by Barry Chant...

 

T:         "Heart of Fire".

 

A:         "Heart of Fire".  Well there's bits in it about that.

 

T:         Because what Barry Chant says in his book is that Lloyd and Noel Hollins...

 

B:         Yes.

 

T:         Split from um, the CRC, from the Revival Crusade.

 

B:         Yeah.

 

T:         Commonwealth Revival Crusade, and took with them Port Lincoln and Canberra.  That's what Barry Chant says in his book.

 

A:         Well it could be, but we were not aware of that.

 

B:         No.

 

T:         Because Len Day went with Lloyd, you said.

 

B:         Yeah.

 

A:         Yeah, because he came from Lloyd. 

 

B:         Yeah.

 

A:         He came from Lloyd.

 

B:         But I thought that the split had already happened.

 

A:         Yeah.  I thought that too.

 

B:         Before Len came to Port Lincoln.  That's what I understood.

 

A:         Yeah, yes.

 

T:         So from the beginning was it called the Revival Centre?

 

A:         Port Lincoln Revival Centre.

 

B:         Yes.

 

T:         Right, OK.  So from when you can remember it's always been the Revival Centre - it was never Revival Crusade, at that stage?

 

B:         Was never... No.

 

A:         No, no, no, no.

 

T:         OK.

 

A:         Um, so Len - continue where we were - Len went to Broken Hill - that didn't work out - and he left that first convert in charge as a pastor, and that was the son of the people in Ceduna.  And he was probably the first Spirit-filled person on our peninsula, because he was filled when he was still in Ceduna, and it was way before our time.  And it wasn't long - and that was John Borden - and John Borden then also got itchy feet, because he had to spread the gospel in the West.  He had a sister in Albany at that time, and he wanted to go there.  He went there with his wife, and took two Dutch families with him.  The whole thing was a flop, so John came back, came back to us.  One Dutch family came back but went to Port Augusta then Adelaide, and eventually, years later, came back to Lincoln, and the other couple stayed in the West, went to Bible school, went to Darwin, uh, worked for a long time in New Guinea, worked in Holland, worked in Indonesia, worked in New Guinea again, and went back to the West, where they still are accepted by - at the moment they're visiting Adelaide - we might see them.  Um...

 

T:         So when did Len leave, um, Port Lincoln?  What year, do you know?

 

A:         Well I'd say that it was `60.

 

T:         1960.  And did he leave, who did he leave in charge?

 

A:         John Borden.

 

T:         John Borden, he left in charge here.

 

A:         Yeah, yeah.  And then John Borden left and he left a man by the name of Phillip Jones in charge.  Now Phillip at that time was - of course the whole bunch was green, as you can understand (they won't mind me saying that) - uh, Phillip Jones at that time was the reluctant pastor.  Now he has a thriving assembly - he used to be with Bethesda, in Adelaide, worked himself up from being a pick and shovel working worker, with E.W.S., the, the waterworks, to manager of Woolies, and tremendous changes in his life, and Bethesda actually lent him to the Apostolic church, so now he has an Apostolic Assembly which is thriving in Adelaide.  So that was Phillip.  And then another split occurred in Geelong.  And Len came back to tell us about it, because I think it was Lloyd - Lloyd or Noel - they had become a bit like the Pope - you can do this and you can do that, but you cannot do this and you cannot do that.  You cannot read such magazine, and eventually there was...

 

T:         What year was that?  Can you remember?

 

A:         It was the early `60's.  I'll try and find that for you, if I can find something back.  I've got old music books, and from there on I can establish some dates.  So I can say it's between then and then.  Um, Len came back to Port Lincoln to tell us about it, so overnight, from having a pastor, we had a board of elders.  And things were getting more and more confused, about it.

 

T:         Did Len come back and appoint himself Pastor again?

 

A:         No, no, he just came back to tell us about it so that we had proper information about it.

 

T:         So can you remember what happened?  Uh, there was a split with who, at that stage?

 

A:         Now there was a split in Geelong, in the Revival Centre.

 

T:         `Cos Lloyd was based in Melbourne, and Noel was based in Geelong.

 

A:         Yeah, but there, and there was Jack Clay was there.

 

T:         Yeah, Jack Clay as well.

 

A:         Yeah.  Um, well maybe between those two?  I, I don't know - if you go to Adelaide John Kuhlmann can tell you a lot - he has the Adelaide Revival Centre, and he was, he was a, a Ceduna convert, and he has now this big assembly in Adelaide.  And he would know more about it because he's kept in touch with all the Revival Centre business whereas we, later on, as an assembly, joined the CRC.  And so there was this split - Len came to tell us about it - and from there it was more and more confusion.  And I think that then John Borden came back.

 

B:         Yeah, John Borden came back.

 

A:         And when we had the board of elders over then - I cannot remember that clearly - but anyway, um, things were getting in a bit of a muddle - they wrote to Len, because they felt we were out on a limb, we had no contact with anybody else.  We were not part of a bigger group.

 

T:         Was there a big British Israel push back then?  Was British Israel...

 

A:         Oh, yes, yes.

 

B:         Yes.

 

A:         Very, very.  Yeah.  Um...

 

T:         You said you felt out on a limb as a church.

 

A:         Yeah, yeah.  We were, um, because our nearest contact was Geelong, and so they wrote to Len, because they wanted some stability, and eventually it came to the point, um, we can join up with a bigger group, either the CRC or the AOG, which ...

 

T:         Can you remember what year this was talked about?

 

A:         I can let you know that too.  I'll, I have to go through those books, and write down music books, and then I, I can get a bit - that was before the days when I wrote everything down.  And who will we join?  And the suggestion was that the CRC was closer in doctrine because the CRC also had British Israel, AOG didn't.  The CRC had a couple of different doctrines and we'll talk about it in a minute, but that was the closest to us.  And so, what do we do?  Do we invite somebody from them to talk to us?  And for a while, in that meeting, I remember distinctly, uh, because there was some that wanted to hear both sides, they wanted to hear the AOG and they wanted to hear the CRC.  But then John Borden said, wisely, he said "Well now supposing that one half wants CRC and the other half wants AOG, then what do we do?  And we could see that, so eventually it was decided that we would ask Leo Harris to come over, which he did, and talk to us.  And of course we had heard all kinds of gruesome stories, uh...

 

T:         About Leo?

 

A:         No, not about Leo - I can't even remember what it was, but, no, forget it, forget it, I don't want to go into that.  I don't know it exactly, so it's no point.  So then we, we were eventually accepted into the CRC, one point was too that John Borden felt he was ill-equipped to be a pastor of an assembly, so the first thing he did was go to Bible school, and then Leo Harris suggested he go somewhere to help out, and then...

 

T:         Do you remember where he went to Bible school?

 

A:         In Adelaide.  Sunrise.

 

T:         Sunrise Bible College, was it?

 

A:         Yeah, that, that was the only thing then.  There was no Tabor or anything - that was years before Tabor.  And, so, then in order to get some order in the place, they sent Dudley Cooper to be our first pastor.  So he was our first CRC pastor.  And that was painful for him, and it was painful for us.  We were well and truly saved, but couldn't perhaps reason as well as he could, he still had a strong Methodist smell around him, and we were a free lot - we were easy going.  We tackled anybody, um, so that was painful.  Now about the doctrine, the Revival Centre was repent, be baptized, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.  "He that has the, has not the Spirit of Christ is none of His," in Romans, and so that was pushed very much, and uh, I think that at the time, depending on who was on board, uh, sometimes people were pushed into speaking in tongues, and then later on had trouble, because it didn't come in the Lord's time.  If... you know what I mean?  And, so that was one difference.  Um, baptism, was both the same.  Then the Revival Centre said you could not have demons if you were a Christian - if you were Spirit-filled you could not have demons, whereas Leo Harris said yes you could, because he had seen cases like that of people who were baptized in water and were speaking in tongues, nevertheless they had demons.  So that was a difference.  Um...

 

T:         How did the assembly cope with the difference in, um, them saying that Leo Harris and them were saying you can give your heart to the Lord, be saved, then be baptized in water, then filled with the Spirit, compared to the Revival Centre - repent, be baptized, filled with the Holy Spirit, you know what I mean?

 

A:         Yeah.  Well...

 

T:         How did the church cope with that?

 

A:         I would, I would say that in Port Lincoln they took it very well.  And I tell you why I think they take it, took it very well - see, John Borden had been to the West, and had seen other things, and he, he told us what he had, what we had seen, what he had seen, so we listened to him, and then he, he quoted from Abraham, with, uh, it's in Romans, where...

 

T:         He believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness.

 

A:         Yeah, yeah.  So where was he saved.  And I know he, he spoke personally to me - he told the whole assembly as well, but he spoke to me - and I could see that.  And once you've seen that, the other step is not such a hassle.  Right?  And I know one fellow, he got confused over it and he left the assembly and was never heard of again.  You know, I mean, but there you are.  Um, we were happy because now we, we got a bit of organisation.  There were some things we were not happy with.  Um, it was everything, it wasn't so much the different doctrine, but the churchiness and everything, and well, it was as hard for Dudley Cooper as it was for us.  You know, the way they treated him.  And well, Dudley stayed seven years, and that's really it, because you want the Revivalist Centre part of it, well that was it.  But...

 

T:         Well there's a Revival Centre listed in the phone book now.

 

A:         Yeah, that's right.  That's right.

 

T:         What happened there?

 

A:         Well they, they started up again, um people coming in from elsewhere.  And just to show you what a strength there was in the original proclamation, we have friends that used to live in a place called Rudell - that's close to Cleave - and they were converted - I think they were converted in Ceduna.  They had no fellowship for 25 years, and finally someone, somebody from that Revival Centre came there, they picked up where they left off, as though nothing had happened.  Now that says something, doesn't it?  It says that there is a lot of strength in the original proclamation of the gospel.  So, you know, I thought it, uh, and at the moment was the Revival Centres came over - they had a show at Tunarama - that's the last weekend in January - and they have a big festival, and they brought over a big tent with good music and they brought everybody, and there was a lot of offense over their abrupt way, you know, their aggressive way, and generally, the Revival Centres have that, very much.  But our original Revival Centre, well in a way we were aggressive, and yet, see Len was a more mellow man than John Kuhlmann.  John Kuhlmann was thou shalt not drink, thou shalt not smoke, that idea, uh, Len was...

 

T:         Was John Kuhlmann in your assembly?

 

A:         No, John Kuhlmann now has the Adelaide Revival Centre.

 

T:         But was he in you assembly?

 

A:         Yeah, he was, and he was a convert from the Ceduna assembly.

 

B:         That's where Len went first.

 

A:         Yeah.

 

T:         So where did he go, where did John Kuhlmann go when you joined the CRC.  Had he already left?

 

A:         He had left and went to Elizabeth.  No, he went to Adelaide first, he went to Adelaide first, and I was in a meeting, because we were very close, those two assemblies, so that was the original Adelaide Revival Centre, but that came to nothing.  But I was in the meeting there, prophecy was given that he would be many.  I remember that.  And then that wound up - I think that wound up - but then he went to Elizabeth - and there they started, and from Elizabeth they eventually they came back and they are now - I think it's ... Road in the Vogue Theatre, and it's a big assembly.

 

T:         So, back in those days, was it considered alright to have a personal prophecy for someone to deliver a prophecy specifically, say, to John Kuhlmann about him being many, like you said, his church being many?

 

A:         Well, it wasn't a personal prophecy, it was just you lot receive the prophecy.  It wasn't directed at John Kuhlmann, it was that particular assembly, and there were people there that are still there now, one being Jock Duncan, who has now started a work in New Zealand.  Um...

 

T:         You know that the Revival Centre in New Zealand have broken away from Lloyd and his lot?

 

A:         Well, that's Jock Duncan.  And actually, my husband was the one to witness to him.

 

T:         Right.  You led him to the Lord did you?

 

B:         Yes, um, the whole family.  As a matter of fact, they had given their heart to the Lord at a Billy Graham meeting.

 

T:         They Did?

 

B&A:   Yes.

 

B:         And I, as green as I was, I came there and I told them that, uh, Billy Graham is a false prophet because he didn't speak in tongues.  I read them a few scriptures out of the Bible, because of course all we knew was one, two and three.  We were so fervent about it because we so strongly believed in it that it made an impression and the next week the whole family was in the church.  And, uh, baptized in no time, and were filled with the Holy Spirit.

 

A:         Yes.

 

B:         And all the, the three boys, they all are in the ministry now.  Jock in New Zealand.

 

T:         They're all still Revival Centre, all three of them?

 

B:         Well, I don't know about the other three.

 

A:         I have a chorus that I learned in 1963, from Dudley Cooper, so that is roughly the time, `62 or `63, at our hall there are some papers about the Revival Centre, too, the early days.  About the first thing, when Len Day was still in Port Lincoln, he introduced our assembly to fasting, and that first year we fasted every long weekend, for three days.  And I remember when we broke our first fast at Len's place, there was a prophecy that said "You have begun well, don't wander away."

 

T:         Was there anything else that was said, can you remember? Or....

 

A:         And that was given by a lady by the name of Peggy Levermaggi.

 

T:         Peggy...

 

A:         Levermaggi.

 

T:         How was that spelt, can you remember?

 

A:         L-E-V-E-R-M-A-G-G-I.  I think.

[LINK SiteName=Mothrust: Movies and Modern Myth Target=_blank]http://aintchristian.blogspot.com.au/[/LINK] Be nice, for everyone that you meet is fighting a harder battle - Anita Roddick
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Re:Barry & Anne Cabooter - Port Lincoln Revival Centre (Interview)

Date Posted:09/12/2007 1:33 AMCopy HTML

 

 

        Peter Corston &

         Anne Cabooter

 

                    Interviewed by Troy Waller

               in Port Lincoln, South Australia

                             30 October l993

P:         This is Peter Corston, reminiscing about the beginnings of the Pentecostal work on Eyre Peninsula.  Um, Len Day first went to Ceduna because of a lady in the Geelong assembly of the Christian Revival Crusade at the time, a Mrs McConarchy, who's sister was a lady we affectionately know as Auntie Bob or Mrs, Mrs Wordman.  And so Len, went to Ceduna with the purpose of through Auntie Bob, um, seeing where the Lord led him.  And it did lead to the formation of an assembly there.  They had their own little, uh, meeting hall, but the um, early converts were mostly people from the Method..., the old Methodist church, and they run in..., ran into considerable opposition in the community, because the community was very parochial in those days.  So much so, that um, some of the tradespeople refused to serve the Days, and it broke their hearts.

 

T:         Were they, they were still CRC then?  Christian Revival Crusade?

 

P:         Um, Revival Centres - they were not Christian Revival Crusade for quite some time to come.  As I, as I started my comment, this is the beginning of the Pentecostal work on Eyre Peninsula.  Prior to this time, there were several people who corresponded uh, with Leo Harris and received what publications Leo Harris was putting out at that time.  But there was no actual working Pentecostal assembly uh, prior to Len Day coming here and establishing the one at Ceduna.

 

T:         Did Len Day ever speak to you about the early days when he was part of Christian Revival Crusade?

 

P:         In Geelong?

 

T:         Mm.

 

P:         Well, um, Len had um, a very chequered career in the beginning.  He, he was um, very extroverted person and he'd try anything once.  And um, following a um, a nasty car accident, one of his friends came to witness to him.  And during the long recuperation period he read the Word and these people came along and spoke to him and ministered to him, ministered the Word to him, `til eventually after about three years in the Geelong assembly, this is about the period of time that Len came to the West Coast.

 

T:         Can you remember what year he got saved?

 

P:         No, but by deduction it was probably around `55, because he came to the West Coast in, in roughly `58.

 

T:         Did he ever speak to you about the leaving of the, the Revival Centres leaving the Crusade?  Did he ever tell you anything about that?

 

P:         Um, the Revival Centres as such, never really, uh well I'll, I'll lead into that.  Um, anyway, Len, following this considerable persecution and in, in Ceduna, where tradespeople, you know, refused to serve them and people actually abused them in the streets.  Um, it broke Joan's heart - this is, this was his wife at that time.  So they moved down to Port Lincoln and they put out a fleece, in a sense, that um, he didn't have a job to come to - he had nothing to come to - so the first place he went to for a job, he put the fleece out, he said "If these people will listen to the, listen to my witnessing and give me a job, then we'll establish in Port Lincoln.  And this is what happened, he spoke to the Blacker family and the Blacker family became the first converts uh, in Port Lincoln.

 

T:         Blacker.  B-L-A-C-K-E-R?

 

P:         Yep.  Um, prior to this though, there was quite a strong little assembly - even with the persecutions - left in Ceduna, with John Borden, Phillip Jones, um, Auntie Bob and, um, uh several others up there at that time.

 

A:   John Kuhlmann?

 

P:         Kuhlmanns?  Oh, yes.  John Kuhlmann, particularly `cos he went on to become the, the Australian leader of Revival Centres almost, outside of Victoria.  And still, I think he still maintains leadership of probably the most, the biggest assemblies in Australia.  Um, he was orig... one of the original Methodist converts to Pentecost from that work of Len Day.

 

A:         Lutheran.

 

P:         Hm?

 

A:         Lutheran, he was.

 

P:         Lutheran.  Oh yeah.  Probably.  Yeah, you're right.

 

A:         `Cos he's German.  

 

P:         Yeah, I forgot that.  But anyway, he suffered, um, um, he, the, the Kuhlmann family farm was a very prosperous family farm and a very large one, and John turned his back on the, on the prosperity of the farm and, and chose to follow the, uh the pathways of the Lord as he saw them at that time.  Now when Len Day came down to Port Lincoln, an assembly was established down here.  By the time I came into the assembly, there were about a dozen people in it.

 

A:         Yeah.

 

P:         I don't remember exactly who they were, but I can remember Garth and Mary.

 

A:         Yeah.

 

P:         And the Levermaggis and a few others.  Uh, uh, without trying to get too specific, but I can remem...

 

A:         Webb.

 

P:         Mm?

 

A:         Webb, Anne Webb.

 

P:         Oh yes, yeah, all of them. But...

 

T:         Who was that?

 

A:         Webb, Anne Webb.

 

T:         Webb?

 

A:         Yeah.

 

T:         W-E-B-B, Webb.

 

A:         Yeah.

 

P:         Anyway, there was approximately a dozen people in the assembly at the time that I was saved.  At that time they were having little house prayer meetings in, in a house adjacent to Blacker Motors at the time, plus other house meetings in various homes around the town.  And this was the format that, uh, the assembly was established on.  Within um, three years of Len coming down here, there was a residue of about sixty people in the assembly and Len claimed at that time that he'd, he'd witnessed to, and about a hundred people had actually been baptized, but some hadn't continued at that time.  Anyway, Len said that his work was that of a bulldozer.  Uh, he came and, and ruckshot over lots of things, and then he left the, the work of consolidating assemblies and this type of thing to other people, to other pastors.  The system at that time was, was a system of inheritance.  The, Len since he was a foundation pastor, nominated John Borden to run the assembly.  And that's, that's the way it was in those days.  So John Borden, uh, was one of the original Ceduna converts - he came down from Ceduna to take this task on.  He had been leader of, co-leader of the work in Ceduna.

 

T:         And that slowly closed down did it?  As they all moved here.

 

P:         It slowly closed down as many, many of them moved away.

 

A:         And came here.

 

P:         A lot of them came down here, including the Fergusons and Auntie Bob and quite a few others, they came down here.  Anyway, um...

 

T:         These people are all gone now, or...?

 

P:         Most of them are dead.

 

A:         They are older - much older than us.

 

T:         Right.

 

P:         Most of them are dead.  And, uh...

 

T:         Sorry, before you go on, would there be anyone that was there at the conception of the assembly?

 

P:         Yes.  The only one I can think of there would be Phillip Jones.

 

A:         And John Kuhlmann.

 

P:         And John Kuhlmann.  And John Borden.

 

A:         And John Borden.

 

P:         If you want to contact him, he's in Ipswich, Queensland.

 

T:         Phillip Jones...

 

P:         Phillip Jones who is pastoring a small Pentecostal work down, not far from the, um...

 

A:         Bethesda.

 

P:         No, no, much further out than that.  Um, uh, I can't think of the name of the suburb he's in.  It was an old, oh, what do they call them...

 

T:         Is he CRC, independent?

 

P:         No, no he broke away.

 

A:         He's the one that's Apostolic.

 

P:         That's the word I'm trying to think of.

 

A:         That I told you about.

 

P:         Yeah, he's pastoring a, a work down there, and last time I went to that particular assembly, he had in attendance about sixty odd people there - it was quite, quite a good atmosphere, very nice little church.

 

T:         John Kuhlmann, Phillip Jones and...

 

P:         John Borden.

 

T:         Now where's John Borden?

 

P:         John Borden...

 

A:         Ipswich.

 

P:         ...is in Ipswich Queensland.  Karagaroo Road, Ipwswich, Queensland.

 

T:         Can you spell Karagaroo Road, please?

 

P:         I can try.  K-A-R-A-G-O-O, or something like that.

 

T:         Karagaroo Road.

 

P:         Yes, it's a funny word.

 

T:         It's alright, I'll ring up the 013.  Anyway, sorry about that, I just need to...

 

P:         Yeah now, John, John was really the first leader of that small assembly after Len Day departed - he was co-leader in conjunction with, with um, Phillip Jones and, and John Kuhlmann.  When John Borden came down here, it left John Kuhlmann as senior, um, pastor at Ceduna, for the time being.  Anyway, um, eventually Len decided to move on, he had a, a um, desire to witness up among the Pacific Islands, and so to fulfil that he built a boat and tried to get up there.

 

A:         Broken Hill.

 

P:         Oh, he went to Broken Hill first, I forgot.  Anyway, uh, the assembly down here at that time, uh, John Borden became the senior pastor and eventually some of these other families migrated down from Ceduna during that period of time.  I don't remember the numbers and attendances, uh, from that period of time, but after John had been the, uh, minister here for probably a year or so, um, several families decided - John had a sister over in Western Australia, and there was a couple of Dutch families and John - decided to migrate to Western Australia.  John in order to, um, witness to his sister, and, uh the Dutch people, I don't quite know what their, you know, special intention was, but basically to try and establish a work.

 

A:         Mm.

 

P:         So, over they went.  During this period of time here, um, Phillip Jones had migrated down here by this time, and he was the, became the senior pastor by this process of nomination, after the period, uh of time.  Then after Phillip had been this senior pastor for a while, things started to go wrong within the assembly, from time to time, and um, um, they progressively got worse.

 

T:         Like, such as what?  What would they do that would go wrong?

 

P:         Well, the usual things that, that you find that break up an assembly - bickerings behind the pastor's back, roast pastor for Sunday lunch - all those sorts of things that really don't go well.  And um, Phillip couldn't handle it, didn't know the answers to it.  Anyway, in desperation, somebody contacted Len Day - who was at that time, uh, had returned to the Geelong assembly - and asked Len to come over here and try and sort out the mess.  Well um, Len got in touch with John Borden, and virtually ordered John Borden to come back from Western Australia to sort the mess out.  So duly John Borden came back, started to sort the mess out, and a few months after this Len Day arrived on the scene with the news that there'd been a major split in the old Revival Centre in Geelong, and that the current administration over there, uh, was a system of, of a board of elders, without one...  Right, one person may have been nominated senior pastor, but the board of elders really had a, a control over, of the assembly.  And Len tried to establish this system here in Port Lincoln.  Um, the first uh, group was John Borden, Phillip Jones, um, Rodney Blacker and myself, representing the, the so-called board of elders of that original assembly.  Anyway, after a while, about a year, John turned around and said "Look, I'm not pastor material.  I don't want to pastor the church."  So, to get out of it, I'm not sure, I think he went across to Adelaide... did he go across to Bible School at that time, or did he go photographing?

 

A:         After he went to Adelaide.  After, uh because, once we were CRC, that's when he went to Bible School.

 

P:         Oh, that's right.  Anyway, following John's announcement that he wasn't pastor material, the elders and the church as a whole all had a special meeting.  And um, it was decided to send a delegation consisting of Phillip Jones and John Borden - I don't know whether there was a third one.

 

A:         I thought you went too actually.

 

P:         No I didn't.

 

A:         You didn't go to Leo Harris.

 

P:         No I, I stayed and looked after things while the others went.  That was the first time I've sort of been left on my own.  Anyway, uh, they went to Adelaide, and they contacted various major Pentecostal works with a view towards providing ministry for us, and each of them, for some reason or other, rejected it.  The, the consensus of opinion at the time was that AOG represented our best bet.  Anyway, AOG were unwilling to um, consider asking a pastor to come here at that time.  But Leo Harris was willing to come across and talk to us about this, this move.

 

T:         OK, before you go any further, why did, why didn't you want to stay with the Revival Centres any more?

 

P:         Pastor...  Well, the pastoral inheritance system broke down on us from the time that the board of elders was created, and so we had no pastor - when John decided he wasn't, no longer wanted to be the senior man on the board of elders, we had no-one at that stage - Phillip Jones didn't want to take leadership - I was, I was incapable of it, oh well I thought I was anyway, at that time.  And so it went down that Rodney had no intention of it whatsoever.  So, that's the reason why we sent the delegation to Adelaide, to find if we could find ministry.

 

T:         Did Len Day, was he approached to come back?  Was Geelong Revival Centre approached at all?

 

P:         Uh, by this time, Len had got himself up to the islands, I think.  He was not, not available by this stage - this is a, a year or two after the, you know, the establishment of the things I spoke about.  But um, anyway, the delegation came back and duly Leo Harris came over here and spoke to the residue of the assembly.  At that stage it had dropped down to perhaps twenty, thirty people - I don't remember the exact number, but it had dwindled considerably from the sixty odd it had been.  And this dwindling had been, you know, a slow and progressive fall.  And uh, duly, after Leo Harris' visit here, I personally went to Adelaide at one stage there, and I spent a day following Leo Harris around like a puppy dog.  And wherever Leo went, Pete went.  Anyway, following, following these sort of things, um, Dudley Cooper was approached, because Dudley Cooper had been in, in the work at Port Adelaide, or Rosewood or whatever it was at the time, and had a bit of a nervous breakdown.  And well, following his recovery from the nervous breakdown, um, he came across here to Port Lincoln and um, uh, following all the inauguration and all that went with it, we became a CRC assembly by, by vote of the people, on the, on the recommendation of, of the elders who, you know including myself at that time.

 

T:         Was there any attempt by the Revival Centres to keep you as a Revival Centre?

 

P:         No.

 

T:         None at all?

 

P:         None at all.

 

T:         They just cut you off?

 

P:         They cut us off because we, according to their teachings at the time, "My sheep hear my voice and follow my lead," uh, this was so strong a feeling that at one time my wife and myself - my mother used to live at Elizabeth, Elizabeth Vale - and Kuhlmann had quite a strong assembly at Elizabeth area at the time, so we went along because of these old ties.  And um, anyway um, the uh, stewards administering the uh, communion elements refused to serve us.  And, I thought "Well, what's going on here?"  So um, I spoke afterwards to Kuhlmann about it, and it was properly amended to the point that we were an exception.  I, I think that from then onwards I severed my ties with the Revival Centres.  That was, that was too much to swallow.

 

T:         Was there any um, yeah but was there any, there was no attempt at the time when you were looking for a new pastor, for them to help you out?

 

P:         No, none whatsoever.

 

T:         Kuhlmann didn't want to help you out?

 

P:         No.  Oh...

 

A:         Well, Kuhlmann at that time wasn't prominent yet, was he?

 

P:         No, he was, he wasn't prominent, he was still a struggling young pastor with, um, you know, working, working through house meetings and hall meetings.  At the time of this refusal to communion elements they had an assembly there of probably a hundred at that time.  This was um, a fair bit later down the line.

 

T:         Can you remember what the year, date, roughly it was that you went and visited Kuhlmann's assembly and they refused you the communion?

 

P:         Oh, gosh, no.  But it must have been in the early sixties.

 

T:         And can you remember the date when you became a CRC?

 

P:         Um, no, but it was approximately a year, it was approximately two years before the hall was built, and there's, there's a commemoration plaque on the, on the hall.

 

A:         You were there.

 

P:         That was the official opening of the hall, but our uh, CRC affiliation was probably eighteen months before that, at least - maybe two years before it.

 

T:         OK.  I'll work that one out later.

 

P:         Uh-huh.  It's pretty vague.  But the past, the Geelong assemblies at that time were very strong, in fact it was probably the centre of um, see Leo Harris and Tommy Foster had an agreement that Leo would go to South Australia, and Tommy Foster would continue in Victoria.  Well Tommy Foster did continue in Victoria, and fathered quite a few of those early pastors, like Noel Hollins, Jack Clay, quite a few of these other people grew up, then they, went away from Tom Foster, and began their own work called the Revival Centres.

 

T:         Can you remember why Tommy Foster...  Now you told me the National Revival Crusade, Tom Foster actually left that, did he?

 

P:         No, I think he remained with that until it, you know, suffered a name change in, in future times.  Um, or an upgrading, just as the Christian Revival Crusade was originally the Commonwealth Revival Crusade, then it, you know, upgraded the names of the thing because Commonwealth was no acceptable.

 

T:         Did Len Day or anyone ever tell you, or can you remember any reasons given why the Revival Centres left the Revival Crusade?  Whatever `Revival Crusade' they were at that time.

 

P:The Revival Centres, um, I think that Noel Hollins and company were very strong-minded people, and they preferred to be individualistic and to work on their own.  And this is why, why they seemed to develop, um around the Geelong area.  Um, for instance Jack Clay was ministering a little bit south of Geelong, and Noel Hollins and, and um, uh the other bloke...

 

T:         Lloyd Longfield?

 

P:         Lloyd Longfield were, were co-pastors in, in the very strong assembly, then they divided and had two assemblies.  But, I don't remember whether the division was by agreement or whether, or disagreement - that, that's beyond my knowledge.

 

T:         Was Lloyd, Lloyd and Noel, were they co-pastoring Geelong or Melbourne?

 

P:         Geelong.

 

T:Geelong.

 

P:         Uh-huh.

 

T:         OK, `cos Lloyd moved to Melbourne at some stage, I'll have to work all that out.

 

P:         I, I don't remember the timing of that very, in fact I don't remember the timing of most of the events I've spoken about, because I didn't attach a great deal of importance to it.  But um, I think that's about the early history, then over here in Port Lincoln of course, we, the history since becoming a CRC assembly was fairly well documented by the early pastors, in forms of notebooks and, and minutes and things like this which you could glean quite a lot from.  Those records, uh, were in the church, oh back here a few years ago when John Ashfield was pastoring the work here, uh, I was administer, uh, well, I was in charge of administration and business at the time.  And, uh those books were in my care at the time, but I haven't seen them since those days, nor have I had any particular reason to dig them, try and dig them out or refer to them.  But um, they did contain a lot of early records, they did contain a lot of personal information which was handed down from pastor to pastor about people in the assembly.  But um, if you had your name on the black book, sort of thing, the incoming pastor read the black book and you still were in the black book.  It was a great system!

 

T:         Tell me, can you remember what, roughly about when they stopped you from receive... like when you went to visit Kuhlmann's assembly in Elizabeth?

 

P:         Uh-huh.

 

T:         What, can you remember when that was?  `Cos that's an interesting point, because they do that nowadays.

 

P:         Oh, yes.

 

T:         It would be interesting to know when they...

 

P:         Well, um, Mum was still living in Elizabeth then, and that was probably eighteen years ago, so I'd reckon it would be close on twenty years ago.  Without being too specific, but twenty years ago.  But even...

 

T:         1973?

 

P:         It was probably earlier than that.  But, um their doctrine of "My sheep hear my voice and follow my leading and teaching, and if they don't hear my voice they go somewhere else."   That particular teaching was, was um, paramount, um, with the old Revival Centres.  And it became stronger in Adelaide when John Kuhlmann went over there.

 

T:         Can you remember the doctrine and what you guys were saved into - the doctrine that you accepted and you know, and then with CRC, was there changes to that?

 

P:         There was no changes.  Basically, the old Revival Centres used to preach what they called the `One-Two-Three', and unless you had gone through the three steps, which, the third step was being infilled with the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues, you weren't saved.  That was their teaching.  There was no such thing as salvation based upon belief in the Lord Jesus Christ without water baptism and without speaking in tongues.

 

T:         So that was what?

 

P:         That was the key doctrine.

 

T:         What year were you... you were saved into that doctrine?

 

P:         Yes.

 

T:         What year, can you remember?

 

P:         Oh, about Easter `58, at a guess.

 

A:         Mm.  Just before us.

 

P:         About Easter `58.  And uh, Len continued to preach that, that doctrine in that method.  And it was reinforced with, when visiting speakers, like Noel Hollins came over here, two or three times over a period of those early years, and he reinforced that particular - that was their specific teaching, the old `One-Two-Three', as we used to term it.  Salvation without the completion of that cycle of events.  Um, it is possible, under their teachings, for a person to be baptized and come out of the water speaking in tongues coming out the water.  Um, and it has happened, and for instance, Shirley, um, oh, Scanlon, um, she was uh, involved in that sort of thing, too.  Anyway, going backwards, digressing a little bit further, during Len Day's time in Port Lincoln, minor works were established in Cummins, uh there was a work established in Cleave by, oh...

 

A:         That was in Dudley's time, wasn't it?

 

P:         No, no.  That was established in Len's time, first.

 

A:         Oh, yeah.

 

P:         Oh, what's his name?

 

A:         Rudell?

 

P:         Oh the, the Swedish bloke.

 

A:         Eric Guelickson.

 

P:         Yeah, and um, there was a work established in Whyalla, a work established in Port Augusta, following, um that was a later time when Carol and Ina went up.

 

A:         Yeah.

 

T:         Was this all in Revival Centre or CRC at this stage?

 

P:         It was all Revival Centre at that stage.  Um, house meetings were conducted out at um...

 

A:         Arno Bay.

 

P:         Oh, we used to have a lot of assembly get-togethers at Arno Bay, at that time.

 

A:         That was where we had meetings then.  I thought that was in Dudley's time.

 

P:         And uh, anyway the, the initial work in Whyalla didn't have a pastor, and it fell to pieces, until a chap from Sydney came down, uh, Les and Shirley Scanlon came down from Sydney.  And they pulled a little work together in Whyalla again, and um, it was the nucleus left from Les and Shirley's work, that was taken over by John Ridley when he went to, when he first went up there.  Some people have often said that John Ridley founded the work in Whyalla.  He didn't.  He had a nucleus of these people from the old CRC work of, of um Les and Shirley Scanlon.

 

T:         So,  John Ridley, he took over this CRC work, he was Revival Centre, was he?

 

P:         John Ridley went there as CRC outright, and then took over the work, well what remained of the work that Les and Shirley had.

 

T:         Who were Revival Centre.

 

P&A:   Yeah.

 

T:         Right, and so that, today that Whyalla is now CRC?

 

P:         Oh yes, it always, it, it became CRC from the time of John Ridley going there.

 

T:         Right, OK.  Now, the other ones, Port Augusta, etc, are they still going today as Revival Centres?  Did they become CRCs?

 

P:         No, no they both became CRC too.  Oh, wait on, Carol and Ina still live in Adelaide don't they?

 

A:         Yeah.

 

P:         They could get a bit more news about Port Augusta direct from them.  Have you given them the address?

 

A:         Yes, I can give them that.

 

P:         Right, I mean, they'd be worth speaking to, because they would see it from their point of view.

 

T:         Um, OK, now basically, except for Elizabeth, all of the Revival Centre churches that were planted became CRC.  Is that what you're telling me?

 

P:         Yes.

 

T:         Right, OK.  Is the Elizabeth Revival Centre still there?

 

P:         Yes, and it's very large, very large.

 

T:         John Kuhlmann's in Adelaide now?

 

P:         Yeah John, John Kuhlmann is in Adelaide, but he still has an extremely strong assembly out at Elizabeth.  From, from the last I heard it was probably as much as two thousand strong out there.

 

A:         In Elizabeth?

 

P:         Yeah.

 

T:         Um, now the CRC never held to the `One-Two-Three'?

 

P:         No.

 

T:         So what happened when these churches would take, well when your assembly was taken over by the CRC, or when you came under the covering, I should say, of the CRC?

 

P:         Well, there were really no changes doctrinally, I mean the point of it is that the, the um, I think that we could use Barry Chant's words:  It wasn't that the doctrines had basically changed, it was the emphasis on particular aspects of the doctrines.  And the emphasis that salvation comes from believing first of all, then the actions of baptism follow believing, and seeking the infilling of the Holy Spirit likewise follows the initial believing.  But salvation can occur with belief.

 

T:         So what do you say today then to, say a Baptist, who isn't charismatic, not filled with the Holy Spirit?

 

P:         Uh, the fact that I don't hear a person speak in other tongues does not necessarily mean that person hasn't had some infilling of the Holy Spirit, but doesn't practise it.  I reserve my judgement on those sorts of things, uh, in terms of um, um, well I'll put it this way:  the fact that a person can speak in tongues, um isn't a major criteria in my book any longer.  I mean yes, it's a, it's a beautiful thing and I, I follow it myself, but I don't put that as a prime consideration for salvation.

 

T:         Now, these other churches they have, the CRC took over their covering, did they have, were there a lot of people that left and went off with John Kuhlmann because of that, or, the majority stayed?

 

P:         The majority stayed in CRC here, but John Kuhlmann really established his own work in Adelaide.  He didn't really take, but to use the words of another chap from the AOG who used to do the rounds of all the various Adelaide assemblies, and that was surprisingly still acceptable by John Kuhlmann.  Uh, I can't think of this bloke's name, but he came over here once or twice, I think he was a Dutch man, Anne?

 

A:         Not DeGraaf?

 

P:         No, it wasn't DeGraaf.

 

A:         Don't even know who you are talking about.

 

P:         Anyway, look, I don't think it matters much, the name of the man, but the fact that he told me that by visiting the various Adelaide assemblies, he saw the uh, um, the drift of all the people that moved from assembly to assembly, like every three or four years, he'd go and have a look at all the different assemblies all around Adelaide that he could get into, and he was amazed at the transfer or the drift that occurred between all the major assemblies, even Kuhlmann's assemblies had its drift, but probably a little bit, some of the people got weary of the, the severity of his, of the discipline, because he really had a, a um, very uh, strong outlook and strong view concerning these things.  And some people, when they got their shirt in a knot, no longer tolerated that sort of thing.  Well, I didn't tolerate because I couldn't agree with his doctrine after, you know real consideration, the doctrine of the `One-Two-Three'.

 

T:         Now, was the AOG guy that came over, was, he was allowed even to preach in the Revival Centre, is that what you're saying?

 

P:         We didn't have AOG come over here at all.

 

T:         Didn't you say there was a preacher from the AOG who...

 

P:         Oh, no, this bloke had been CRC, had gone to AOG, and um, for some reason or other, he was, he still held some degree of credibility with Kuhlmann.  I don't, I don't know why and how, but he, he still got into the, into the Kuhlmann assemblies, and saw the number of people that were, you know on this rotational drift.

 

A:         Wasn't that Jerry's father, the one you're talking about?  There was a Jerry here, and he was in our assembly, and he...

 

P:         Jerry, Jerry, now that's, that's right, Jerry...

 

A:         VanDerGraaf.

 

P:         That was VanDerGraaf.

 

A:         Yeah.

 

P:         That was his father.

 

A:         Yeah.

 

P:         That was his father.

 

A:         Jerry VanDerGraaf.

 

T:         Spell it.

 

P:         Last I heard of Jerry, he had a, a very big, um, hardware business out at Elizabeth Bay area somewhere, I haven't seen or heard of him for years.

 

T:         Now that was the name of this guy, Jerry VanDerGraaf, or was it his father?

 

P:         No, that was the son.

 

T:         OK, can you remember the father's name?

 

P:         Was it Jack?

 

A:         Yeah, it could well be.

 

T:         Jack VanDerGraaf.

 

P:         Jack, and the, and the wife too.  I used to, occasionally, Karen and, oh what's her name?  Karen is the daughter of that family.

 

A:         Yeah.

 

P:         And, uh, well they used to come across and see him.  I don't know whether he's still alive or not, `cos I haven't seen them and Karen hasn't, I've seen Karen a lot, but, she's never mentioned Mum and Dad.  I'm wondering if he's still alive.

 

A:         We were talking about rescuing.  There was a time when we were very unhappy under the CRC yoke, and Dudley in particular, and John Kuhlmann came over several times, thinking he might rescue us, but he realised it wasn't the doctrine we had the argument with, it was more the approach and how everything was implemented.

 

T:         And what did he do, did he go home in a huff, or...?

 

A:         No, no.

 

T:         So why did John go home, why didn't he stay and try and rescue you?

 

A:         Well, he wasn't here, he came and visited regularly, and he could see no point in continuing that, because it wasn't, we didn't have the arguments with the doctrine, more with the whole CRC approach.  We felt swallowed up, didn't we?

 

P:         Yes, we did.

 

A:         At that time.

 

P:         Actually, um, I went across to see Leo on a couple of occasions, and um, I rather gathered the impression that um, Leo wasn't altogether on side with Dudley concerning Dudley's approach on some things either.  You see Dudley's own personality um, in his own way, he tried to emulate what he thought Leo was doing.  But he, he lacked the people management skills that Leo had to, to bring it to pass.  That's really part of the problem.

 

T:         And um, sorry, you said to me before when the tape was off about John Kuhlmann going home because he saw there was no point, because you'd now agreed with CRC doctrine?

 

A:         Yeah.  He thought, he thought that uh...

 

P:         He might be able to rescue the assembly.

 

A:         Yeah.  He might rescue us.

 

P:         As Revival Centre.

 

T:         Back to his doctrine?

 

A:         Yeah.  But that, see, that wasn't what we had argument with.  We more had the, the argument with the way people were handled.

 

P:         Yeah people.

 

T:         So he went home thinking that, he went back to Elizabeth thinking there was no point helping you.

 

A:         Yeah, `cos, yeah.

 

T:         And that was the last contact?

 

A:         Yeah.

 

P:         Yeah, that was about the last time that John Kuhlmann ever showed his nose in the Port.

 

T:         Can you remember what year that was?

 

A:         Sixties, sometime.

 

T:         Well `63 was what you had in the book.

 

A:         Yeah, yeah.  Um.

 

P:         Late `64 or early `65.  Somewhere in that timeslot.  It's hard to get too specific.

 

A:         Did you put, did you put on the tape that Phillip was, um Peter wasn't allowed to have communion when he went to Elizabeth?  That's on the tape?

 

T:         Yep, that's on there.

 

A:         And you asked a year, and he didn't know that.

 

P:         Actually at that stage it was, sorry, I, I said that it was, I spoke to John after it, it was Jock Duncan I spoke to afterwards who sorted it out.  But by then I'd got myself, and I'd got my nose in a knot and decided, well I'm not going there again.

 

A:         No.

 

P:         But it was actually Jock Duncan who, who I spoke with.

 

T:         Was that after this guy, after he'd given up, John Kuhlmann had given up on you?

 

P:         Probably.  `Cos the assembly at that stage in Adelaide uh, had two or three pastors.  Like John was senior pastor and Jock Duncan and a couple of others were in there too.

 

A:         Mm.

 

P:         And the, the assembly numbers were probably a hundred plus at that stage.  So I mean it would have been a, a fairly, the beginning of, of John's major work.

 

A:         Mm.  And what I told you when you interviewed me, me at our place, um, when I was told that I wasn't welcome there, that was when my youngest daughter was fourteen, so that would have been 1972.

 

T:         1972 you weren't welcome at the Revival Centre in...

 

A:         Yeah.  I, I came through Elizabeth, I had to take my daughter to have special shoes fitted.  We came through Elizabeth, stayed at Jock, Jock Duncan's mother's place, and then, and went to a meeting, and then the next day Jock came and told me that I wasn't welcome because it created confusion, because the people there were asking "Now, do we have an assembly in Port Lincoln or don't we?"

 

P:         Well, I, I, at the time I went to that particular meeting, Mum was like, um, I, I, went to Adelaide and witnessed to Mum early in the piece, and she maintained her contact, and when, when she moved out to Elizabeth, she continued in fellowship with John Kuhlmann's assembly, up until the time that I got refused communion, then she decided she wasn't going there either.

 

T:         So how many churches left the Revival Centre covering and went under the CRC covering, and can you remember from what period, time period...

 

P:         Well actually, it really started with Geelong, I mean Geelong was the first.  When, when the major split occurred, and uh, the board of elders was left in charge of Geelong...

 

P:         Could be, it could be, but look, I can't remember clearly.  But, he was probably the senior man amongst the board of elders at Geelong at the time.  And um, although I don't know the timing of it, that original Geelong assembly under the board of elders, became a CRC affiliate.  As far as I know, the CRC work in Geelong was that work.

 

T:         That broke away from Noel...

 

A:         It wasn't, it wasn't Belmont that you're talking about?

 

T:         Belmont Crusade Centre?

 

A:         `Cos Len was really at Belmont, wasn't he?  Was it Belmont or was it Geelong?

 

P:         I think it was Geelong, Anne.

 

A:         Because Dudley is at Belmont.

 

P:         No, I think it was Geelong.  It's probably the subject of a bit of investigation on that point.

 

T:         How many assemblies from this area, from the peninsula, Port Augusta, Port Lincoln, etc, left the Revival Centre and became part of the Christian Revival Crusade?

 

P:         Well, I don't think Port Augusta really left the Christian Revival Crusade, as much as um, see it was when Carol and Ina went to Port Augusta.  They were CRC at the time they went there, so that the work that was, although there are a couple of contacts in Port Augusta, in Len Day's day, there were no, no residual meetings.  And when Carol and Ina decided to go to Port Augusta, they'd picked up on these couple of contacts, but they'd, by that time they were CRC anyway.  So, I mean...

 

A:         Well, that, you mix me up in that, because when they went west, they were definitely Revival Centre, that was before we joined the CRC that they went west.

 

P:         Yeah but didn't, didn't they, when they went, didn't they join the Foursquare Gospel when they were over there in the West?

 

A:         They were not there for very long, I don't think.

 

P:         Mm.  No, but they were the first to come back I think.

 

A:         Yeah.  But, so...

 

P:         Look, I think the best thing you can do is to contact Carol and Ina, because their memories concerning those things will be far clearer than ours, because it affected them.

 

T:         OK, what are their names?

 

T:         Carol and Ina.  I'll fix it up.

 

P:         Uh, they'll, they'll remember that era, you know, quite clearly.

 

A:         Better than us, yeah.

 

P:         And as far as I know, what's his name, um, Eric Guelickson is still alive somewhere down in the Second Valley area.

 

A:         Yeah, yeah, yeah.

 

T:         And where's Eric Guelickson from?  Where was he from?

 

P:         He was originally one of the earlier converts here in this assembly.  And he eventually went to Adelaide, as CRC, then he went, they had uh, some strong house meetings down in the Second Valley area down near where he was living, Normanville, Second Valley.  That's the area where he, somewhere in that area.  He'd be quite an old man by now, too.  Well in his seventies.

 

T:         So the other churches weren't really assemblies, they were just pockets of people, so really there was only one assembly, and that went under the covering of Revival Crusade, from the Revival Centre, which was you people?

 

A:         The other way around.  Because we were Revival Centre, and became Revival Crusade.  Right?

 

P:         The work of Whyalla, uh, was quite strongly established in Les and Shirley's time.  Now they had quite a good attendance up there, but I don't know what happened, I don't remember now, but eventually, that work diminished to the point when Ridley went there, there was, there was probably little better than house meetings or, you know, strong house meetings.

 

A:         There is a woman that I met and I don't know her name, but I met her when I went to this last weekend, and she remembers all that.  Um, we can ask John, he comes over in a couple of weeks.

 

P:         Well John Ridley's coming soon, he is.

 

T:         Is he?

 

A:         Yeah, yeah.

 

P:         Yes, he'll be over here very soon.  He'll remember, like, their part of it, but you see, John, John always, or Elizabeth always used to claim they started the C... well they did, they started the CRC.

 

A:         They did, yeah.

 

P:         But, there was a residue of families left over from this other earlier work.

 

A:         Yeah.

 

T:         Can I get you to give John Ridley my card?

 

(BREAK)

 

P:         Yeah, John Kirkwood.  Well um, anyway, Athol Day went there first of all, but he...

 

T:         That was Len's brother, was it?

 

P:         That was Len's brother.  This was very early in the piece.  And he went on up to Sydney, and um, um, he had quite an active little work around the, um, some zones of Sydney, probably twenty or thirty people there within a, quite a short period of time.  That's where Les and Shirley Scanlon got saved.  In fact I was present the night that, um, it was in their flat, it was in their flat that I saw the first baptism in the miniature bath.  They pick them up and ran them through this miniature bathtub like a roll of film.  You've never seen anything quite like it in you life!

 

A:         We did a lot of that.

 

P:         Oh, gosh.  But we had a lot in common with Les and Shirley in the early days because, because of Athol Day.  You see, in around about 1959, I went up to Sydney, New South Wales, I was working up there for about three or four months.  And they used to call down through Sydney about every three weekends, every third weekend.  And because of Len, he said "Oh, look, look brother Athol up."  So I went and looked Athol Day up, and Athol Day introduced me to his little assembly and I became virtually a part of that little CR... uh Revival Centre assembly in Sydney at that time.  And um, um, oh, who also was there?  There was another young bloke up in that assembly.

 

T:         What can you tell me about Jack Clay?  Can you remember much about him?

 

P:         Not at lot, except...

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Re:Barry & Anne Cabooter - Port Lincoln Revival Centre (Interview)

Date Posted:09/12/2007 1:46 AMCopy HTML

 

 

        Peter Corston &

         Anne Cabooter

 

                    Interviewed by Troy Waller

               in Port Lincoln, South Australia

                             30 October l993

P:         This is Peter Corston, reminiscing about the beginnings of the Pentecostal work on Eyre Peninsula.  Um, Len Day first went to Ceduna because of a lady in the Geelong assembly of the Christian Revival Crusade at the time, a Mrs McConarchy, who's sister was a lady we affectionately know as Auntie Bob or Mrs, Mrs Wordman.  And so Len, went to Ceduna with the purpose of through Auntie Bob, um, seeing where the Lord led him.  And it did lead to the formation of an assembly there.  They had their own little, uh, meeting hall, but the um, early converts were mostly people from the Method..., the old Methodist church, and they run in..., ran into considerable opposition in the community, because the community was very parochial in those days.  So much so, that um, some of the tradespeople refused to serve the Days, and it broke their hearts.

 

T:         Were they, they were still CRC then?  Christian Revival Crusade?

 

P:         Um, Revival Centres - they were not Christian Revival Crusade for quite some time to come.  As I, as I started my comment, this is the beginning of the Pentecostal work on Eyre Peninsula.  Prior to this time, there were several people who corresponded uh, with Leo Harris and received what publications Leo Harris was putting out at that time.  But there was no actual working Pentecostal assembly uh, prior to Len Day coming here and establishing the one at Ceduna.

 

T:         Did Len Day ever speak to you about the early days when he was part of Christian Revival Crusade?

 

P:         In Geelong?

 

T:         Mm.

 

P:         Well, um, Len had um, a very chequered career in the beginning.  He, he was um, very extroverted person and he'd try anything once.  And um, following a um, a nasty car accident, one of his friends came to witness to him.  And during the long recuperation period he read the Word and these people came along and spoke to him and ministered to him, ministered the Word to him, `til eventually after about three years in the Geelong assembly, this is about the period of time that Len came to the West Coast.

 

T:         Can you remember what year he got saved?

 

P:         No, but by deduction it was probably around `55, because he came to the West Coast in, in roughly `58.

 

T:         Did he ever speak to you about the leaving of the, the Revival Centres leaving the Crusade?  Did he ever tell you anything about that?

 

P:         Um, the Revival Centres as such, never really, uh well I'll, I'll lead into that.  Um, anyway, Len, following this considerable persecution and in, in Ceduna, where tradespeople, you know, refused to serve them and people actually abused them in the streets.  Um, it broke Joan's heart - this is, this was his wife at that time.  So they moved down to Port Lincoln and they put out a fleece, in a sense, that um, he didn't have a job to come to - he had nothing to come to - so the first place he went to for a job, he put the fleece out, he said "If these people will listen to the, listen to my witnessing and give me a job, then we'll establish in Port Lincoln.  And this is what happened, he spoke to the Blacker family and the Blacker family became the first converts uh, in Port Lincoln.

 

T:         Blacker.  B-L-A-C-K-E-R?

 

P:         Yep.  Um, prior to this though, there was quite a strong little assembly - even with the persecutions - left in Ceduna, with John Borden, Phillip Jones, um, Auntie Bob and, um, uh several others up there at that time.

 

A:   John Kuhlmann?

 

P:         Kuhlmanns?  Oh, yes.  John Kuhlmann, particularly `cos he went on to become the, the Australian leader of Revival Centres almost, outside of Victoria.  And still, I think he still maintains leadership of probably the most, the biggest assemblies in Australia.  Um, he was orig... one of the original Methodist converts to Pentecost from that work of Len Day.

 

A:         Lutheran.

 

P:         Hm?

 

A:         Lutheran, he was.

 

P:         Lutheran.  Oh yeah.  Probably.  Yeah, you're right.

 

A:         `Cos he's German.  

 

P:         Yeah, I forgot that.  But anyway, he suffered, um, um, he, the, the Kuhlmann family farm was a very prosperous family farm and a very large one, and John turned his back on the, on the prosperity of the farm and, and chose to follow the, uh the pathways of the Lord as he saw them at that time.  Now when Len Day came down to Port Lincoln, an assembly was established down here.  By the time I came into the assembly, there were about a dozen people in it.

 

A:         Yeah.

 

P:         I don't remember exactly who they were, but I can remember Garth and Mary.

 

A:         Yeah.

 

P:         And the Levermaggis and a few others.  Uh, uh, without trying to get too specific, but I can remem...

 

A:         Webb.

 

P:         Mm?

 

A:         Webb, Anne Webb.

 

P:         Oh yes, yeah, all of them. But...

 

T:         Who was that?

 

A:         Webb, Anne Webb.

 

T:         Webb?

 

A:         Yeah.

 

T:         W-E-B-B, Webb.

 

A:         Yeah.

 

P:         Anyway, there was approximately a dozen people in the assembly at the time that I was saved.  At that time they were having little house prayer meetings in, in a house adjacent to Blacker Motors at the time, plus other house meetings in various homes around the town.  And this was the format that, uh, the assembly was established on.  Within um, three years of Len coming down here, there was a residue of about sixty people in the assembly and Len claimed at that time that he'd, he'd witnessed to, and about a hundred people had actually been baptized, but some hadn't continued at that time.  Anyway, Len said that his work was that of a bulldozer.  Uh, he came and, and ruckshot over lots of things, and then he left the, the work of consolidating assemblies and this type of thing to other people, to other pastors.  The system at that time was, was a system of inheritance.  The, Len since he was a foundation pastor, nominated John Borden to run the assembly.  And that's, that's the way it was in those days.  So John Borden, uh, was one of the original Ceduna converts - he came down from Ceduna to take this task on.  He had been leader of, co-leader of the work in Ceduna.

 

T:         And that slowly closed down did it?  As they all moved here.

 

P:         It slowly closed down as many, many of them moved away.

 

A:         And came here.

 

P:         A lot of them came down here, including the Fergusons and Auntie Bob and quite a few others, they came down here.  Anyway, um...

 

T:         These people are all gone now, or...?

 

P:         Most of them are dead.

 

A:         They are older - much older than us.

 

T:         Right.

 

P:         Most of them are dead.  And, uh...

 

T:         Sorry, before you go on, would there be anyone that was there at the conception of the assembly?

 

P:         Yes.  The only one I can think of there would be Phillip Jones.

 

A:         And John Kuhlmann.

 

P:         And John Kuhlmann.  And John Borden.

 

A:         And John Borden.

 

P:         If you want to contact him, he's in Ipswich, Queensland.

 

T:         Phillip Jones...

 

P:         Phillip Jones who is pastoring a small Pentecostal work down, not far from the, um...

 

A:         Bethesda.

 

P:         No, no, much further out than that.  Um, uh, I can't think of the name of the suburb he's in.  It was an old, oh, what do they call them...

 

T:         Is he CRC, independent?

 

P:         No, no he broke away.

 

A:         He's the one that's Apostolic.

 

P:         That's the word I'm trying to think of.

 

A:         That I told you about.

 

P:         Yeah, he's pastoring a, a work down there, and last time I went to that particular assembly, he had in attendance about sixty odd people there - it was quite, quite a good atmosphere, very nice little church.

 

T:         John Kuhlmann, Phillip Jones and...

 

P:         John Borden.

 

T:         Now where's John Borden?

 

P:         John Borden...

 

A:         Ipswich.

 

P:         ...is in Ipswich Queensland.  Karagaroo Road, Ipwswich, Queensland.

 

T:         Can you spell Karagaroo Road, please?

 

P:         I can try.  K-A-R-A-G-O-O, or something like that.

 

T:         Karagaroo Road.

 

P:         Yes, it's a funny word.

 

T:         It's alright, I'll ring up the 013.  Anyway, sorry about that, I just need to...

 

P:         Yeah now, John, John was really the first leader of that small assembly after Len Day departed - he was co-leader in conjunction with, with um, Phillip Jones and, and John Kuhlmann.  When John Borden came down here, it left John Kuhlmann as senior, um, pastor at Ceduna, for the time being.  Anyway, um, eventually Len decided to move on, he had a, a um, desire to witness up among the Pacific Islands, and so to fulfil that he built a boat and tried to get up there.

 

A:         Broken Hill.

 

P:         Oh, he went to Broken Hill first, I forgot.  Anyway, uh, the assembly down here at that time, uh, John Borden became the senior pastor and eventually some of these other families migrated down from Ceduna during that period of time.  I don't remember the numbers and attendances, uh, from that period of time, but after John had been the, uh, minister here for probably a year or so, um, several families decided - John had a sister over in Western Australia, and there was a couple of Dutch families and John - decided to migrate to Western Australia.  John in order to, um, witness to his sister, and, uh the Dutch people, I don't quite know what their, you know, special intention was, but basically to try and establish a work.

 

A:         Mm.

 

P:         So, over they went.  During this period of time here, um, Phillip Jones had migrated down here by this time, and he was the, became the senior pastor by this process of nomination, after the period, uh of time.  Then after Phillip had been this senior pastor for a while, things started to go wrong within the assembly, from time to time, and um, um, they progressively got worse.

 

T:         Like, such as what?  What would they do that would go wrong?

 

P:         Well, the usual things that, that you find that break up an assembly - bickerings behind the pastor's back, roast pastor for Sunday lunch - all those sorts of things that really don't go well.  And um, Phillip couldn't handle it, didn't know the answers to it.  Anyway, in desperation, somebody contacted Len Day - who was at that time, uh, had returned to the Geelong assembly - and asked Len to come over here and try and sort out the mess.  Well um, Len got in touch with John Borden, and virtually ordered John Borden to come back from Western Australia to sort the mess out.  So duly John Borden came back, started to sort the mess out, and a few months after this Len Day arrived on the scene with the news that there'd been a major split in the old Revival Centre in Geelong, and that the current administration over there, uh, was a system of, of a board of elders, without one...  Right, one person may have been nominated senior pastor, but the board of elders really had a, a control over, of the assembly.  And Len tried to establish this system here in Port Lincoln.  Um, the first uh, group was John Borden, Phillip Jones, um, Rodney Blacker and myself, representing the, the so-called board of elders of that original assembly.  Anyway, after a while, about a year, John turned around and said "Look, I'm not pastor material.  I don't want to pastor the church."  So, to get out of it, I'm not sure, I think he went across to Adelaide... did he go across to Bible School at that time, or did he go photographing?

 

A:         After he went to Adelaide.  After, uh because, once we were CRC, that's when he went to Bible School.

 

P:         Oh, that's right.  Anyway, following John's announcement that he wasn't pastor material, the elders and the church as a whole all had a special meeting.  And um, it was decided to send a delegation consisting of Phillip Jones and John Borden - I don't know whether there was a third one.

 

A:         I thought you went too actually.

 

P:         No I didn't.

 

A:         You didn't go to Leo Harris.

 

P:         No I, I stayed and looked after things while the others went.  That was the first time I've sort of been left on my own.  Anyway, uh, they went to Adelaide, and they contacted various major Pentecostal works with a view towards providing ministry for us, and each of them, for some reason or other, rejected it.  The, the consensus of opinion at the time was that AOG represented our best bet.  Anyway, AOG were unwilling to um, consider asking a pastor to come here at that time.  But Leo Harris was willing to come across and talk to us about this, this move.

 

T:         OK, before you go any further, why did, why didn't you want to stay with the Revival Centres any more?

 

P:         Pastor...  Well, the pastoral inheritance system broke down on us from the time that the board of elders was created, and so we had no pastor - when John decided he wasn't, no longer wanted to be the senior man on the board of elders, we had no-one at that stage - Phillip Jones didn't want to take leadership - I was, I was incapable of it, oh well I thought I was anyway, at that time.  And so it went down that Rodney had no intention of it whatsoever.  So, that's the reason why we sent the delegation to Adelaide, to find if we could find ministry.

 

T:         Did Len Day, was he approached to come back?  Was Geelong Revival Centre approached at all?

 

P:         Uh, by this time, Len had got himself up to the islands, I think.  He was not, not available by this stage - this is a, a year or two after the, you know, the establishment of the things I spoke about.  But um, anyway, the delegation came back and duly Leo Harris came over here and spoke to the residue of the assembly.  At that stage it had dropped down to perhaps twenty, thirty people - I don't remember the exact number, but it had dwindled considerably from the sixty odd it had been.  And this dwindling had been, you know, a slow and progressive fall.  And uh, duly, after Leo Harris' visit here, I personally went to Adelaide at one stage there, and I spent a day following Leo Harris around like a puppy dog.  And wherever Leo went, Pete went.  Anyway, following, following these sort of things, um, Dudley Cooper was approached, because Dudley Cooper had been in, in the work at Port Adelaide, or Rosewood or whatever it was at the time, and had a bit of a nervous breakdown.  And well, following his recovery from the nervous breakdown, um, he came across here to Port Lincoln and um, uh, following all the inauguration and all that went with it, we became a CRC assembly by, by vote of the people, on the, on the recommendation of, of the elders who, you know including myself at that time.

 

T:         Was there any attempt by the Revival Centres to keep you as a Revival Centre?

 

P:         No.

 

T:         None at all?

 

P:         None at all.

 

T:         They just cut you off?

 

P:         They cut us off because we, according to their teachings at the time, "My sheep hear my voice and follow my lead," uh, this was so strong a feeling that at one time my wife and myself - my mother used to live at Elizabeth, Elizabeth Vale - and Kuhlmann had quite a strong assembly at Elizabeth area at the time, so we went along because of these old ties.  And um, anyway um, the uh, stewards administering the uh, communion elements refused to serve us.  And, I thought "Well, what's going on here?"  So um, I spoke afterwards to Kuhlmann about it, and it was properly amended to the point that we were an exception.  I, I think that from then onwards I severed my ties with the Revival Centres.  That was, that was too much to swallow.

 

T:         Was there any um, yeah but was there any, there was no attempt at the time when you were looking for a new pastor, for them to help you out?

 

P:         No, none whatsoever.

 

T:         Kuhlmann didn't want to help you out?

 

P:         No.  Oh...

 

A:         Well, Kuhlmann at that time wasn't prominent yet, was he?

 

P:         No, he was, he wasn't prominent, he was still a struggling young pastor with, um, you know, working, working through house meetings and hall meetings.  At the time of this refusal to communion elements they had an assembly there of probably a hundred at that time.  This was um, a fair bit later down the line.

 

T:         Can you remember what the year, date, roughly it was that you went and visited Kuhlmann's assembly and they refused you the communion?

 

P:         Oh, gosh, no.  But it must have been in the early sixties.

 

T:         And can you remember the date when you became a CRC?

 

P:         Um, no, but it was approximately a year, it was approximately two years before the hall was built, and there's, there's a commemoration plaque on the, on the hall.

 

A:         You were there.

 

P:         That was the official opening of the hall, but our uh, CRC affiliation was probably eighteen months before that, at least - maybe two years before it.

 

T:         OK.  I'll work that one out later.

 

P:         Uh-huh.  It's pretty vague.  But the past, the Geelong assemblies at that time were very strong, in fact it was probably the centre of um, see Leo Harris and Tommy Foster had an agreement that Leo would go to South Australia, and Tommy Foster would continue in Victoria.  Well Tommy Foster did continue in Victoria, and fathered quite a few of those early pastors, like Noel Hollins, Jack Clay, quite a few of these other people grew up, then they, went away from Tom Foster, and began their own work called the Revival Centres.

 

T:         Can you remember why Tommy Foster...  Now you told me the National Revival Crusade, Tom Foster actually left that, did he?

 

P:         No, I think he remained with that until it, you know, suffered a name change in, in future times.  Um, or an upgrading, just as the Christian Revival Crusade was originally the Commonwealth Revival Crusade, then it, you know, upgraded the names of the thing because Commonwealth was no acceptable.

 

T:         Did Len Day or anyone ever tell you, or can you remember any reasons given why the Revival Centres left the Revival Crusade?  Whatever `Revival Crusade' they were at that time.

 

P:The Revival Centres, um, I think that Noel Hollins and company were very strong-minded people, and they preferred to be individualistic and to work on their own.  And this is why, why they seemed to develop, um around the Geelong area.  Um, for instance Jack Clay was ministering a little bit south of Geelong, and Noel Hollins and, and um, uh the other bloke...

 

T:         Lloyd Longfield?

 

P:         Lloyd Longfield were, were co-pastors in, in the very strong assembly, then they divided and had two assemblies.  But, I don't remember whether the division was by agreement or whether, or disagreement - that, that's beyond my knowledge.

 

T:         Was Lloyd, Lloyd and Noel, were they co-pastoring Geelong or Melbourne?

 

P:         Geelong.

 

T:Geelong.

 

P:         Uh-huh.

 

T:         OK, `cos Lloyd moved to Melbourne at some stage, I'll have to work all that out.

 

P:         I, I don't remember the timing of that very, in fact I don't remember the timing of most of the events I've spoken about, because I didn't attach a great deal of importance to it.  But um, I think that's about the early history, then over here in Port Lincoln of course, we, the history since becoming a CRC assembly was fairly well documented by the early pastors, in forms of notebooks and, and minutes and things like this which you could glean quite a lot from.  Those records, uh, were in the church, oh back here a few years ago when John Ashfield was pastoring the work here, uh, I was administer, uh, well, I was in charge of administration and business at the time.  And, uh those books were in my care at the time, but I haven't seen them since those days, nor have I had any particular reason to dig them, try and dig them out or refer to them.  But um, they did contain a lot of early records, they did contain a lot of personal information which was handed down from pastor to pastor about people in the assembly.  But um, if you had your name on the black book, sort of thing, the incoming pastor read the black book and you still were in the black book.  It was a great system!

 

T:         Tell me, can you remember what, roughly about when they stopped you from receive... like when you went to visit Kuhlmann's assembly in Elizabeth?

 

P:         Uh-huh.

 

T:         What, can you remember when that was?  `Cos that's an interesting point, because they do that nowadays.

 

P:         Oh, yes.

 

T:         It would be interesting to know when they...

 

P:         Well, um, Mum was still living in Elizabeth then, and that was probably eighteen years ago, so I'd reckon it would be close on twenty years ago.  Without being too specific, but twenty years ago.  But even...

 

T:         1973?

 

P:         It was probably earlier than that.  But, um their doctrine of "My sheep hear my voice and follow my leading and teaching, and if they don't hear my voice they go somewhere else."   That particular teaching was, was um, paramount, um, with the old Revival Centres.  And it became stronger in Adelaide when John Kuhlmann went over there.

 

T:         Can you remember the doctrine and what you guys were saved into - the doctrine that you accepted and you know, and then with CRC, was there changes to that?

 

P:         There was no changes.  Basically, the old Revival Centres used to preach what they called the `One-Two-Three', and unless you had gone through the three steps, which, the third step was being infilled with the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues, you weren't saved.  That was their teaching.  There was no such thing as salvation based upon belief in the Lord Jesus Christ without water baptism and without speaking in tongues.

 

T:         So that was what?

 

P:         That was the key doctrine.

 

T:         What year were you... you were saved into that doctrine?

 

P:         Yes.

 

T:         What year, can you remember?

 

P:         Oh, about Easter `58, at a guess.

 

A:         Mm.  Just before us.

 

P:         About Easter `58.  And uh, Len continued to preach that, that doctrine in that method.  And it was reinforced with, when visiting speakers, like Noel Hollins came over here, two or three times over a period of those early years, and he reinforced that particular - that was their specific teaching, the old `One-Two-Three', as we used to term it.  Salvation without the completion of that cycle of events.  Um, it is possible, under their teachings, for a person to be baptized and come out of the water speaking in tongues coming out the water.  Um, and it has happened, and for instance, Shirley, um, oh, Scanlon, um, she was uh, involved in that sort of thing, too.  Anyway, going backwards, digressing a little bit further, during Len Day's time in Port Lincoln, minor works were established in Cummins, uh there was a work established in Cleave by, oh...

 

A:         That was in Dudley's time, wasn't it?

 

P:         No, no.  That was established in Len's time, first.

 

A:         Oh, yeah.

 

P:         Oh, what's his name?

 

A:         Rudell?

 

P:         Oh the, the Swedish bloke.

 

A:         Eric Guelickson.

 

P:         Yeah, and um, there was a work established in Whyalla, a work established in Port Augusta, following, um that was a later time when Carol and Ina went up.

 

A:         Yeah.

 

T:         Was this all in Revival Centre or CRC at this stage?

 

P:         It was all Revival Centre at that stage.  Um, house meetings were conducted out at um...

 

A:         Arno Bay.

 

P:         Oh, we used to have a lot of assembly get-togethers at Arno Bay, at that time.

 

A:         That was where we had meetings then.  I thought that was in Dudley's time.

 

P:         And uh, anyway the, the initial work in Whyalla didn't have a pastor, and it fell to pieces, until a chap from Sydney came down, uh, Les and Shirley Scanlon came down from Sydney.  And they pulled a little work together in Whyalla again, and um, it was the nucleus left from Les and Shirley's work, that was taken over by John Ridley when he went to, when he first went up there.  Some people have often said that John Ridley founded the work in Whyalla.  He didn't.  He had a nucleus of these people from the old CRC work of, of um Les and Shirley Scanlon.

 

T:         So,  John Ridley, he took over this CRC work, he was Revival Centre, was he?

 

P:         John Ridley went there as CRC outright, and then took over the work, well what remained of the work that Les and Shirley had.

 

T:         Who were Revival Centre.

 

P&A:   Yeah.

 

T:         Right, and so that, today that Whyalla is now CRC?

 

P:         Oh yes, it always, it, it became CRC from the time of John Ridley going there.

 

T:         Right, OK.  Now, the other ones, Port Augusta, etc, are they still going today as Revival Centres?  Did they become CRCs?

 

P:         No, no they both became CRC too.  Oh, wait on, Carol and Ina still live in Adelaide don't they?

 

A:         Yeah.

 

P:         They could get a bit more news about Port Augusta direct from them.  Have you given them the address?

 

A:         Yes, I can give them that.

 

P:         Right, I mean, they'd be worth speaking to, because they would see it from their point of view.

 

T:         Um, OK, now basically, except for Elizabeth, all of the Revival Centre churches that were planted became CRC.  Is that what you're telling me?

 

P:         Yes.

 

T:         Right, OK.  Is the Elizabeth Revival Centre still there?

 

P:         Yes, and it's very large, very large.

 

T:         John Kuhlmann's in Adelaide now?

 

P:         Yeah John, John Kuhlmann is in Adelaide, but he still has an extremely strong assembly out at Elizabeth.  From, from the last I heard it was probably as much as two thousand strong out there.

 

A:         In Elizabeth?

 

P:         Yeah.

 

T:         Um, now the CRC never held to the `One-Two-Three'?

 

P:         No.

 

T:         So what happened when these churches would take, well when your assembly was taken over by the CRC, or when you came under the covering, I should say, of the CRC?

 

P:         Well, there were really no changes doctrinally, I mean the point of it is that the, the um, I think that we could use Barry Chant's words:  It wasn't that the doctrines had basically changed, it was the emphasis on particular aspects of the doctrines.  And the emphasis that salvation comes from believing first of all, then the actions of baptism follow believing, and seeking the infilling of the Holy Spirit likewise follows the initial believing.  But salvation can occur with belief.

 

T:         So what do you say today then to, say a Baptist, who isn't charismatic, not filled with the Holy Spirit?

 

P:         Uh, the fact that I don't hear a person speak in other tongues does not necessarily mean that person hasn't had some infilling of the Holy Spirit, but doesn't practise it.  I reserve my judgement on those sorts of things, uh, in terms of um, um, well I'll put it this way:  the fact that a person can speak in tongues, um isn't a major criteria in my book any longer.  I mean yes, it's a, it's a beautiful thing and I, I follow it myself, but I don't put that as a prime consideration for salvation.

 

T:         Now, these other churches they have, the CRC took over their covering, did they have, were there a lot of people that left and went off with John Kuhlmann because of that, or, the majority stayed?

 

P:         The majority stayed in CRC here, but John Kuhlmann really established his own work in Adelaide.  He didn't really take, but to use the words of another chap from the AOG who used to do the rounds of all the various Adelaide assemblies, and that was surprisingly still acceptable by John Kuhlmann.  Uh, I can't think of this bloke's name, but he came over here once or twice, I think he was a Dutch man, Anne?

 

A:         Not DeGraaf?

 

P:         No, it wasn't DeGraaf.

 

A:         Don't even know who you are talking about.

 

P:         Anyway, look, I don't think it matters much, the name of the man, but the fact that he told me that by visiting the various Adelaide assemblies, he saw the uh, um, the drift of all the people that moved from assembly to assembly, like every three or four years, he'd go and have a look at all the different assemblies all around Adelaide that he could get into, and he was amazed at the transfer or the drift that occurred between all the major assemblies, even Kuhlmann's assemblies had its drift, but probably a little bit, some of the people got weary of the, the severity of his, of the discipline, because he really had a, a um, very uh, strong outlook and strong view concerning these things.  And some people, when they got their shirt in a knot, no longer tolerated that sort of thing.  Well, I didn't tolerate because I couldn't agree with his doctrine after, you know real consideration, the doctrine of the `One-Two-Three'.

 

T:         Now, was the AOG guy that came over, was, he was allowed even to preach in the Revival Centre, is that what you're saying?

 

P:         We didn't have AOG come over here at all.

 

T:         Didn't you say there was a preacher from the AOG who...

 

P:         Oh, no, this bloke had been CRC, had gone to AOG, and um, for some reason or other, he was, he still held some degree of credibility with Kuhlmann.  I don't, I don't know why and how, but he, he still got into the, into the Kuhlmann assemblies, and saw the number of people that were, you know on this rotational drift.

 

A:         Wasn't that Jerry's father, the one you're talking about?  There was a Jerry here, and he was in our assembly, and he...

 

P:         Jerry, Jerry, now that's, that's right, Jerry...

 

A:         VanDerGraaf.

 

P:         That was VanDerGraaf.

 

A:         Yeah.

 

P:         That was his father.

 

A:         Yeah.

 

P:         That was his father.

 

A:         Jerry VanDerGraaf.

 

T:         Spell it.

 

P:         Last I heard of Jerry, he had a, a very big, um, hardware business out at Elizabeth Bay area somewhere, I haven't seen or heard of him for years.

 

T:         Now that was the name of this guy, Jerry VanDerGraaf, or was it his father?

 

P:         No, that was the son.

 

T:         OK, can you remember the father's name?

 

P:         Was it Jack?

 

A:         Yeah, it could well be.

 

T:         Jack VanDerGraaf.

 

P:         Jack, and the, and the wife too.  I used to, occasionally, Karen and, oh what's her name?  Karen is the daughter of that family.

 

A:         Yeah.

 

P:         And, uh, well they used to come across and see him.  I don't know whether he's still alive or not, `cos I haven't seen them and Karen hasn't, I've seen Karen a lot, but, she's never mentioned Mum and Dad.  I'm wondering if he's still alive.

 

A:         We were talking about rescuing.  There was a time when we were very unhappy under the CRC yoke, and Dudley in particular, and John Kuhlmann came over several times, thinking he might rescue us, but he realised it wasn't the doctrine we had the argument with, it was more the approach and how everything was implemented.

 

T:         And what did he do, did he go home in a huff, or...?

 

A:         No, no.

 

T:         So why did John go home, why didn't he stay and try and rescue you?

 

A:         Well, he wasn't here, he came and visited regularly, and he could see no point in continuing that, because it wasn't, we didn't have the arguments with the doctrine, more with the whole CRC approach.  We felt swallowed up, didn't we?

 

P:         Yes, we did.

 

A:         At that time.

 

P:         Actually, um, I went across to see Leo on a couple of occasions, and um, I rather gathered the impression that um, Leo wasn't altogether on side with Dudley concerning Dudley's approach on some things either.  You see Dudley's own personality um, in his own way, he tried to emulate what he thought Leo was doing.  But he, he lacked the people management skills that Leo had to, to bring it to pass.  That's really part of the problem.

 

T:         And um, sorry, you said to me before when the tape was off about John Kuhlmann going home because he saw there was no point, because you'd now agreed with CRC doctrine?

 

A:         Yeah.  He thought, he thought that uh...

 

P:         He might be able to rescue the assembly.

 

A:         Yeah.  He might rescue us.

 

P:         As Revival Centre.

 

T:         Back to his doctrine?

 

A:         Yeah.  But that, see, that wasn't what we had argument with.  We more had the, the argument with the way people were handled.

 

P:         Yeah people.

 

T:         So he went home thinking that, he went back to Elizabeth thinking there was no point helping you.

 

A:         Yeah, `cos, yeah.

 

T:         And that was the last contact?

 

A:         Yeah.

 

P:         Yeah, that was about the last time that John Kuhlmann ever showed his nose in the Port.

 

T:         Can you remember what year that was?

 

A:         Sixties, sometime.

 

T:         Well `63 was what you had in the book.

 

A:         Yeah, yeah.  Um.

 

P:         Late `64 or early `65.  Somewhere in that timeslot.  It's hard to get too specific.

 

A:         Did you put, did you put on the tape that Phillip was, um Peter wasn't allowed to have communion when he went to Elizabeth?  That's on the tape?

 

T:         Yep, that's on there.

 

A:         And you asked a year, and he didn't know that.

 

P:         Actually at that stage it was, sorry, I, I said that it was, I spoke to John after it, it was Jock Duncan I spoke to afterwards who sorted it out.  But by then I'd got myself, and I'd got my nose in a knot and decided, well I'm not going there again.

 

A:         No.

 

P:         But it was actually Jock Duncan who, who I spoke with.

 

T:         Was that after this guy, after he'd given up, John Kuhlmann had given up on you?

 

P:         Probably.  `Cos the assembly at that stage in Adelaide uh, had two or three pastors.  Like John was senior pastor and Jock Duncan and a couple of others were in there too.

 

A:         Mm.

 

P:         And the, the assembly numbers were probably a hundred plus at that stage.  So I mean it would have been a, a fairly, the beginning of, of John's major work.

 

A:         Mm.  And what I told you when you interviewed me, me at our place, um, when I was told that I wasn't welcome there, that was when my youngest daughter was fourteen, so that would have been 1972.

 

T:         1972 you weren't welcome at the Revival Centre in...

 

A:         Yeah.  I, I came through Elizabeth, I had to take my daughter to have special shoes fitted.  We came through Elizabeth, stayed at Jock, Jock Duncan's mother's place, and then, and went to a meeting, and then the next day Jock came and told me that I wasn't welcome because it created confusion, because the people there were asking "Now, do we have an assembly in Port Lincoln or don't we?"

 

P:         Well, I, I, at the time I went to that particular meeting, Mum was like, um, I, I, went to Adelaide and witnessed to Mum early in the piece, and she maintained her contact, and when, when she moved out to Elizabeth, she continued in fellowship with John Kuhlmann's assembly, up until the time that I got refused communion, then she decided she wasn't going there either.

 

T:         So how many churches left the Revival Centre covering and went under the CRC covering, and can you remember from what period, time period...

 

P:         Well actually, it really started with Geelong, I mean Geelong was the first.  When, when the major split occurred, and uh, the board of elders was left in charge of Geelong...

 

P:         Could be, it could be, but look, I can't remember clearly.  But, he was probably the senior man amongst the board of elders at Geelong at the time.  And um, although I don't know the timing of it, that original Geelong assembly under the board of elders, became a CRC affiliate.  As far as I know, the CRC work in Geelong was that work.

 

T:         That broke away from Noel...

 

A:         It wasn't, it wasn't Belmont that you're talking about?

 

T:         Belmont Crusade Centre?

 

A:         `Cos Len was really at Belmont, wasn't he?  Was it Belmont or was it Geelong?

 

P:         I think it was Geelong, Anne.

 

A:         Because Dudley is at Belmont.

 

P:         No, I think it was Geelong.  It's probably the subject of a bit of investigation on that point.

 

T:         How many assemblies from this area, from the peninsula, Port Augusta, Port Lincoln, etc, left the Revival Centre and became part of the Christian Revival Crusade?

 

P:         Well, I don't think Port Augusta really left the Christian Revival Crusade, as much as um, see it was when Carol and Ina went to Port Augusta.  They were CRC at the time they went there, so that the work that was, although there are a couple of contacts in Port Augusta, in Len Day's day, there were no, no residual meetings.  And when Carol and Ina decided to go to Port Augusta, they'd picked up on these couple of contacts, but they'd, by that time they were CRC anyway.  So, I mean...

 

A:         Well, that, you mix me up in that, because when they went west, they were definitely Revival Centre, that was before we joined the CRC that they went west.

 

P:         Yeah but didn't, didn't they, when they went, didn't they join the Foursquare Gospel when they were over there in the West?

 

A:         They were not there for very long, I don't think.

 

P:         Mm.  No, but they were the first to come back I think.

 

A:         Yeah.  But, so...

 

P:         Look, I think the best thing you can do is to contact Carol and Ina, because their memories concerning those things will be far clearer than ours, because it affected them.

 

T:         OK, what are their names?

 

T:         Carol and Ina.  I'll fix it up.

 

P:         Uh, they'll, they'll remember that era, you know, quite clearly.

 

A:         Better than us, yeah.

 

P:         And as far as I know, what's his name, um, Eric Guelickson is still alive somewhere down in the Second Valley area.

 

A:         Yeah, yeah, yeah.

 

T:         And where's Eric Guelickson from?  Where was he from?

 

P:         He was originally one of the earlier converts here in this assembly.  And he eventually went to Adelaide, as CRC, then he went, they had uh, some strong house meetings down in the Second Valley area down near where he was living, Normanville, Second Valley.  That's the area where he, somewhere in that area.  He'd be quite an old man by now, too.  Well in his seventies.

 

T:         So the other churches weren't really assemblies, they were just pockets of people, so really there was only one assembly, and that went under the covering of Revival Crusade, from the Revival Centre, which was you people?

 

A:         The other way around.  Because we were Revival Centre, and became Revival Crusade.  Right?

 

P:         The work of Whyalla, uh, was quite strongly established in Les and Shirley's time.  Now they had quite a good attendance up there, but I don't know what happened, I don't remember now, but eventually, that work diminished to the point when Ridley went there, there was, there was probably little better than house meetings or, you know, strong house meetings.

 

A:         There is a woman that I met and I don't know her name, but I met her when I went to this last weekend, and she remembers all that.  Um, we can ask John, he comes over in a couple of weeks.

 

P:         Well John Ridley's coming soon, he is.

 

T:         Is he?

 

A:         Yeah, yeah.

 

P:         Yes, he'll be over here very soon.  He'll remember, like, their part of it, but you see, John, John always, or Elizabeth always used to claim they started the C... well they did, they started the CRC.

 

A:         They did, yeah.

 

P:         But, there was a residue of families left over from this other earlier work.

 

A:         Yeah.

 

T:         Can I get you to give John Ridley my card?

 

(BREAK)

 

P:         Yeah, John Kirkwood.  Well um, anyway, Athol Day went there first of all, but he...

 

T:         That was Len's brother, was it?

 

P:         That was Len's brother.  This was very early in the piece.  And he went on up to Sydney, and um, um, he had quite an active little work around the, um, some zones of Sydney, probably twenty or thirty people there within a, quite a short period of time.  That's where Les and Shirley Scanlon got saved.  In fact I was present the night that, um, it was in their flat, it was in their flat that I saw the first baptism in the miniature bath.  They pick them up and ran them through this miniature bathtub like a roll of film.  You've never seen anything quite like it in you life!

 

A:         We did a lot of that.

 

P:         Oh, gosh.  But we had a lot in common with Les and Shirley in the early days because, because of Athol Day.  You see, in around about 1959, I went up to Sydney, New South Wales, I was working up there for about three or four months.  And they used to call down through Sydney about every three weekends, every third weekend.  And because of Len, he said "Oh, look, look brother Athol up."  So I went and looked Athol Day up, and Athol Day introduced me to his little assembly and I became virtually a part of that little CR... uh Revival Centre assembly in Sydney at that time.  And um, um, oh, who also was there?  There was another young bloke up in that assembly.

 

T:         What can you tell me about Jack Clay?  Can you remember much about him?

 

P:         Not at lot, except...

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