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Date Posted:25/06/2009 7:03 AMCopy HTML

Having popped back into this forum after a couple of years away, I have been appalled to see what it has turned into. When first here I was able to speak with other revival centre survivors and have pretty reasonable  conversations.

Now I find it has turned into something else altogether. It is one thing to have an invited "expert" to refute the doctrine of tongues in a a bid to draw further people out of the revival mess.

It is another thing altogether to have said "expert" demean and abuse already abused people.

My time in the Revival Centre has left me with severe post traumatic stress disorder. God only know what it has left other survivors with.

I wonder if it is just always the case when you put a pack of humans together, one or two have to rise to what they believe is "the top". A position where it is okay to treat people badly because you think you have the right. A place where you thinkyou wield power, and at times you do because some others with no inner security of their own place you on a pedestal and then worship you.

Nothing gives us the right to treat other people badly. Not a degree in anything, not the fact we are holding a gun, or run a church. Why do any of us need to be abusers at all? Why would we even want to be? Haven't we been through enough already?

I thought the whole point of following Christ was to do things differently. Not need to be the best, not need to show how great we are, not need to be ego driven and glory in the worship of others. One of the reasons I no longer attend church is that I cannot find a group of humans that can rise above this tired old way of doing things.

Thank you to the people here with whom I have managed to have a reasonable conversation.

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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:05/08/2009 3:44 AMCopy HTML

Galien,

Again, interesting. Here's the immediate literary context that underpins verse 12:

"So put to death whatever in your nature belongs to the earth: sexual immorality, impurity, shameful passion, evil desire, and greed which is idolatry. Because of these things the wrath of God is coming on the sons of disobedience. You also lived your lives in this way at one time, when you used to live among them. But now, put off all such things as anger, rage, malice, slander, abusive language from your mouth. Do not lie to one another since you have put off the old man with its practices and have been clothed with the new man that is being renewed in knowledge according to the image of the one who created it." (Colossians 3:5-10).

I'll leave it to you to pause and personally reflect which, among this long list of vices, specifically apply to you (I could easily list several, but listing them probably wouldn't be particularly charitable a thing for me to do).

However, note especially the corporate nature of the charge that Paul is giving to the Colossian church: "...let the peace of Christ be in control in your heart (for you were in fact called as one body to this peace), and be thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and exhorting one another with all wisdom, singing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, all with grace in your hearts to God." (verses 15 and 16). Does "the peace of Christ control your heart"? Does "the word of Christ dwell in you"? Do you submit to others "teaching you with grace in your heart"?

Taking C-O-N-T-E-X-T into account changes one's perspective a wee bit, doesn't it? At least it does unless one is altogether spiritually dull, completely self-absorbed in an individualistic sense, or bi-polar.

Goose.

Ian

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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:05/08/2009 4:09 AMCopy HTML

Again, interesting. Here's the immediate literary context that underpins verse 12:

I can read Ian, but thats right, only you can interpret literary context correctly.

"So put to death whatever in your nature belongs to the earth: sexual immorality, impurity, shameful passion, evil desire, and greed which is idolatry. Because of these things the wrath of God is coming on the sons of disobedience. You also lived your lives in this way at one time, when you used to live among them. But now, put off all such things as anger, rage, malice, slander, abusive language from your mouth. Do not lie to one another since you have put off the old man with its practices and have been clothed with the new man that is being renewed in knowledge according to the image of the one who created it." (Colossians 3:5-10).

I'll leave it to you to pause and personally reflect which, among this long list of vices, specifically apply to you (I could easily list several, but listing them probably wouldn't be particularly charitable a thing for me to do).

Why start being charitable now Ian, you have never bothered before with me or anyone else. You ever bother reflecting on you own vices? Clearly not or you would have learned to shut your vicious mouth by now.

However, note especially the corporate nature of the charge that Paul is giving to the Colossian church: "...let the peace of Christ be in control in your heart (for you were in fact called as one body to this peace), and be thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and exhorting one another with all wisdom, singing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, all with grace in your hearts to God." (verses 15 and 16). Does "the peace of Christ control your heart"? Does "the word of Christ dwell in you"? Do you submit to others "teaching you with grace in your heart"?

Unlike you Ian I have nothing to prove to anyone, and as I have mentioned before I am not accountable to YOU for anything. Do you think you are everyone's pastor?

Taking C-O-N-T-E-X-T into account changes one's perspective a wee bit, doesn't it? At least it does unless one is altogether spiritually dull, completely self-absorbed in an individualistic sense, or bi-polar.

I don't need a pretentious, conceited, arrogant revival clone like you to tell me anything. I have loved my god since you were in nappies you clown. You know nothing about me Ian, absolutely nothing. Say what you want, its all complete garbage.

You don't even have the slightest idea what it means to be a decent human being much less a christian's little finger. Must work well for you this christian lurk, where you can still be a complete bastard, think there is no value in kindness, look down your nose at everyone and think you know it all. Jesus said LEARN FROM ME, I AM HUMBLE AND GENTLE IN HEART. Not hard of heart like you Ian. I can see no difference between you and EVERY revival pastor I ever met.

There is not one thing wrong with you a "Deliverance" weekend wouldn't cure, and I do mean the movie. After all, that is EXACTLY what you are doing to the people on this forum.

You need to be brought down off that high horse of yours mister.



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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:05/08/2009 4:15 AMCopy HTML

Galien,

That's it? No more attempts at trying to appeal (inappropriately) to Scripture? Is all that you have left the same tired old: "geez Ian you're a very bad man" line? Try picking up a mirror and gazing for a second or two into the image that confronts you.

I'd offer that you (desperately) need someone to start teaching you. However, absolutely everyone who has been bothered to take up the attempt has been rebuffed. It seems that you're far too proud and arrogant to acknowledge that it is you who has the wrong end of the stick. But you know differently, eh?

Goose.

Ian

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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:05/08/2009 4:33 AMCopy HTML

That's it? No more attempts at trying to appeal (inappropriately) to Scripture? Is all that you have left the same tired old: "geez Ian you're a very bad man" line? Try picking up a mirror and gazing for a second or two into the image that confronts you.

Amazes me Ian how you cannot see you are the one who doesn't listen. If Jesus said learn from me for I am gentle and humble of heart, I guess that is what he meant, but no, wait, there must have been some underlying CONTEXT I didn't understand. 

I know exactly who I am mate. Has nothing to do with you being a "bad man", just an arrogant tosser.

I'd offer that you (desperately) need someone to start teaching you. However, absolutely everyone who has been bothered to take up the attempt has been rebuffed. It seems that you're far too proud and arrogant to acknowledge that it is you who has the wrong end of the stick. But you know differently, don't you?

Everyone on this site that hangs from your apron strings. As for what goes in in my actual life, well you have no idea Ian. Never been proud in my life, but YOU know differently, don't you?
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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:05/08/2009 4:37 AMCopy HTML

Galien,

When you have a spare hour or two, go back and re-read all of your posts and CBox comments. If you want an instant education in pig-headedness, profound arrogance and an inability to listen to the views of others, then such would provide a very comprehensive start.

Ian

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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:05/08/2009 4:52 AMCopy HTML

So if Jesus said it, why do you think it doesn't matter?
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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:05/08/2009 4:55 AMCopy HTML

Galien,

Jesus also said that we are to be mutually submissive and accountable within the corporate context that is the Christian Church, didn't he? So why do you think that this obligation doesn't matter? Hypocrisy on your part again?

Ian

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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:05/08/2009 4:58 AMCopy HTML

Answer the question ian
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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:05/08/2009 5:02 AMCopy HTML

Galien,

Quote for me the passage and I will be happy to. But if it's Matthew 11:29 that you had in mind, then yet again you've wrested Scripture by not taking into account
context.

"At that time Jesus said,“I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your gracious will. All things have been handed over to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son decides to reveal him. Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke on you and learn from me, because I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy to bear, and my load is not hard to carry.” (11:25-29)

How does Jesus' identifying his unique role as Saviour fit your intended "application"? Perhaps you could explain to me how a statement that is clearly and uniquely directed to the Person of Jesus can be attributed to others? Would it help your understanding if I were to grammatically diagram the entire pericope, to help you see the logical connections within the respective clauses?

Now, care to answer my question?

Goose.

Ian

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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:05/08/2009 5:10 AMCopy HTML

Matthew 11:29. And don't bother telling me it means anything different from what it says
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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:05/08/2009 5:28 AMCopy HTML

Galien,

Quote for me the Scripture and I will be happy to. But if it's Matthew 11:29 that you had in mind, then yet again you've wrested Scripture by not taking into account context.

"At that time Jesus said,“I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your gracious will. All things have been handed over to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son decides to reveal him. Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke on you and learn from me, because I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy to bear, and my load is not hard to carry.” (11:25-29)

How does Jesus' identifying his unique role as Saviour fit your intended "application"?

If Jesus says his yoke is easy and his burden is light, why do people like you turn it into a burden that drags people down? He may be identifying himself as saviour but he is ALSO saying LEARN from me BECAUSE I am gentle and humble in heart. So should we be Ian. The word also says be ye perfect as your father in heaven is perfect.

And yes he also said that things are hidden from the wise and intelligent and revealed to little children. Because I learned who jesus was as a child i did not have the hardness in my heart that most adults have. I came to jesus as a child, and when it comes to the way I relate to him I will always be a child. Complete honesty, complete tranparency, no agendas, no lies, no need for people to think I know stuff, no need for worldly credibility, status quo, adoring minions, nothing. Just me in my sin, loving him, and him loving me. I dont need your stupid tick list of requirements, they are my life.

I thought we learned in high school Ian how to interpret a character from reading about them. It  doesn't take a rocket scientist or a degree in theology to work out what kind of person jesus was.

You can have all the book learning in the world ian, but it won't grow you a heart, and without one that is open to god, you are wasting your time.



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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:05/08/2009 5:32 AMCopy HTML

Galien,

Doesn't continually being proven wrong in your (mis)understanding of Scripture embarrass you?! You who  has claimed over and over to not needing anyone to teach you what it says and means? Do you even plan on actually submitting to the Bible's teachings anytime soon? I ask this because, to be honest, you're not giving any indication that you're actually regenerate. And this concerns me greatly.

Ian

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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:05/08/2009 5:40 AMCopy HTML



Doesn't continually being proven wrong in your (mis)understanding of Scripture embarrass you?! You who  has claimed over and over not to need anyone to teach you the Bible? Furthermore, do you plan on submitting to it's teachings anytime soon?

But that's the thing Ian, you don't prove me wrong. Tell me how me how we are not supposed to learn from Jesus because he is humble and gentle in heart. I do submit to the bible's teachings. Just not to people like you who have taken ownership of them for the purpose of lording it over others. Embarrass me? I don't think so. Because I have no pride to lose Ian, it doesnt bother me.

So tell me Ian, how was Jesus wrong when he said that?
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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:05/08/2009 5:44 AMCopy HTML

Galien,

Didn't you read what I wrote in my response to your misquoting of Matthew 11:29?! The passage doesn't function as an example of "how to be like Jesus"; it points to the identity of Jesus as Saviour and sin-bearer. As I've mentioned to you several times before, biblical passages aren't codes. They say what they mean, and they mean what they say.


Now, you've not answered my question yet. Why? And while you're at it, perhaps you could justify your off-hand comment as to how it is that you believe I turn Jesus' light burden into an excessively heavy one?

Ian

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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:05/08/2009 6:07 AMCopy HTML

Didn't you read what I wrote in my response to your misquoting of Matthew 11:29?! The passage doesn't function as an example of "how to be like Jesus"; it points to the identity of Jesus as Saviour and sin-bearer. As I've mentioned to you several times before, biblical passages aren't codes. They say what they mean, and they mean what they say.

So who WAS Jesus adressing when he said to learn from him, if the scriptures say what they mean and mean what they say? And if it wasn't you Ian, who exactly DO you model yourself on?

Now, you've not answered my question yet. Why? And while you're at it, perhaps you could justify your off-hand comment as to how it is that you believe I turn Jesus' light burden into an excessively heavy one?

You ask so many, but I assume you mean when will I submit to the bible's teaching? Always have, always will. You turn christianity into a requirement Ian, a chore, something we do because we don't want to get our butt kicked by god. You do the same thing the revival centre did. You take what is meant to be full of joy and hope and light and you turn into something entirely different. I worship and adore my lord and my god, have since I was a child, I WANT to do what he requires of me, in fact I LOVE to, which is why I pretty well always have with a few mistakes on the way like all of us. I do what i do NOT because I am afraid of the consequences if i don't but because of the love I have for my heavenly father. I WANT to please him.

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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:05/08/2009 6:10 AMCopy HTML

Galien,

It's pleasing to learn that you've decided to submit your will to the Body of Christ then, and as such that you've re-entered into corporate Christian fellowship in a local church where you can be taught appropriately and be part of the process that is mutual accountability.

Ian

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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:05/08/2009 6:13 AMCopy HTML

U didnt answer the questions Ian. Who do you model yourself on if not Jesus/ Who was Jesus talking to? Well come on mr bible man it can't be that hard can it? Or like the JW's are you looking up one of your little books to explain it to you?

Just because the old razzzle dazzle works on a lot of people here ian, doesnt mean it works on me.

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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:05/08/2009 6:18 AMCopy HTML

Galien,

Now, now. What's good for the "goose" is good for the "gander". That is, unless the "goose" is a hypocrite. I responded fully to your question concerning the passage from Matthew. You, however, have not responded to my question. The one asking why you believe Christ's obligation for Christians to be in corporate fellowship isn't binding on you. You're nothing if not consistently inconsistent!

Whom do I model myself on? Easy question with an easy answer. Given that I'm not possessing of a divine nature, in accordance with Scripture I try to model myself on the apostle Paul (check out 1 Corinthians 4:15 and 16).

Goose.

Ian

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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:06/08/2009 5:37 AMCopy HTML

Reply to Didaktikon

Galien,

Now, now. What's good for the "goose" is good for the "gander". That is, unless the "goose" is a hypocrite. I responded fully to your question concerning the passage from Matthew. You, however, have not responded to my question. The one asking why you believe Christ's obligation for Christians to be in corporate fellowship isn't binding on you. You're nothing if not consistently inconsistent!

Whom do I model myself on? Easy question with an easy answer. Given that I'm not possessing of a divine nature, in accordance with Scripture I try to model myself on the apostle Paul (check out 1 Corinthians 4:15 and 16).

Goose.

Ian



From the NRSV 2 Corinthians 3:15 - 18

"But their minds were hardened, Indeed to this very day when they hear the reading of the old covenant, that same veil is still there, since only in Christ is all set aside. Indeed, to this very day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their minds; but when one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And all of us, with unveiled faces, seeing the glory of the Lord as though reflected in a mirror, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another; for this comes from the Lord, the Spirit..

Sorry Brother Ian, YOU DO have a Divine nature living within and constantly at work within you producing Christlikeness in your life and God is showing Jesus to the world through your daily life.. And you are his child !! Yes sanctification is indeed a process as well.

bless you dear brother

Metanoia

..
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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:06/08/2009 7:23 AMCopy HTML

Metanoia

"And all of us, with unveiled faces, seeing the glory of the Lord as though reflected in a mirror, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another; for this comes from the Lord, the Spirit.."

Thank you for this refreshing interlude. "With unveiled faces" is a worthy aim in this life. It suggests so much to me. Nothing to hide, openness, confidence, assurance.

Chips

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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:06/08/2009 10:18 PMCopy HTML

Eric,

Thanks, but not really what I had in mind with respect to stating that I do not possess a divine nature. There's quite a bit of difference between me possessing a divine nature, and a divine nature possessing me

Blessings,

Ian

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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:06/08/2009 10:46 PMCopy HTML

Why does one need to have a divine nature to emulate Christ? Its not rocket science.
RCI prophesies
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