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Date Posted:25/06/2009 7:03 AMCopy HTML

Having popped back into this forum after a couple of years away, I have been appalled to see what it has turned into. When first here I was able to speak with other revival centre survivors and have pretty reasonable  conversations.

Now I find it has turned into something else altogether. It is one thing to have an invited "expert" to refute the doctrine of tongues in a a bid to draw further people out of the revival mess.

It is another thing altogether to have said "expert" demean and abuse already abused people.

My time in the Revival Centre has left me with severe post traumatic stress disorder. God only know what it has left other survivors with.

I wonder if it is just always the case when you put a pack of humans together, one or two have to rise to what they believe is "the top". A position where it is okay to treat people badly because you think you have the right. A place where you thinkyou wield power, and at times you do because some others with no inner security of their own place you on a pedestal and then worship you.

Nothing gives us the right to treat other people badly. Not a degree in anything, not the fact we are holding a gun, or run a church. Why do any of us need to be abusers at all? Why would we even want to be? Haven't we been through enough already?

I thought the whole point of following Christ was to do things differently. Not need to be the best, not need to show how great we are, not need to be ego driven and glory in the worship of others. One of the reasons I no longer attend church is that I cannot find a group of humans that can rise above this tired old way of doing things.

Thank you to the people here with whom I have managed to have a reasonable conversation.

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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:06/07/2009 2:42 AMCopy HTML

Galien,

Nice dodge, but the answer you gave wasn't to the question that I posed. I'd suggest that you don't very much like the "bosses" being the "bosses", do you?

And sometimes I do know better, quite often in fact.

Well, of course you do. Now you challenged me to think "outside the box" in the CBox, and I accepted your challenge with one of my own. Why is it, then, that you're ducking the opportunity to follow-through?

Ian

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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:06/07/2009 2:52 AMCopy HTML

Galien,

Oh, one of us can prove matters all right. Your "subjective apprehension" of reality isn't binding upon anyone, not even you. Jesus, however, clearly stated that Scripture's "objective presentation" of reality, is. So why not "test" your beliefs against Scripture, after all, that is one of its very functions according to the apostle Paul. You opened up the challenge, are you now afraid to follow through?

Geez! You can't even be consistent within yourself!

Ian

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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:06/07/2009 2:58 AMCopy HTML

To Ian,Matt7vs1;JUDGE not,that you be not judged.Vs5 Thou hypocrite first cast out the beam out of thine own eye,and then thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brothers eye.  Galien;neither cast ye your pearls before swine.
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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:06/07/2009 3:04 AMCopy HTML

Nice dodge, but the answer you gave wasn't to the question that I posed. I'd suggest that you don't very much like the "bosses" being the "bosses", do you?
**************************************************************************************

No more of a dodge than you not telling me why you still desire power, prestige and status even though they are not really godly pursuits. As one becomes more of him and less of themselves these are the things that fall away. You realise everything the world has taught you is important, in fact, isn't.

I don't understand why people need to have power over each other. I think its a bit sick really.

And as an aside, paul may have been an apostle but he still had plenty of pharisee in him, just like you. I follow jesus, not paul. He is my example. What paul had to say was fair enough. The way he said it, hmmm.

So tell me Ian, how are you planning on proving there is a God?
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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:06/07/2009 3:07 AMCopy HTML

Groagan,

Well, you're nothing if not consistent! Try putting aside your Revivalist penchant for "proof-texting" for a moment, and have a go at reading that particular passage in its entirety. Broadens the vista, doesn't it?

Ian

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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:06/07/2009 3:10 AMCopy HTML

Reply to Groagan

Galien;neither cast ye your pearls before swine.

Yes Groagan, I have been repetedly told that by people most of my life. One day I might listen. Ian probably isn't a swine, but I have called him worse. I will continue to pray for Ian that the love of god permeates his heart.

Galien
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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:06/07/2009 3:19 AMCopy HTML

Galien,

Aha! Now we get to the heart of the matter!

And as an aside, paul may have been an apostle but he still had plenty of pharisee in him, just like you. I follow jesus, not paul. He is my example. What paul had to say was fair enough. The way he said it, hmmm.

Well there you go. You don't follow the biblical Jesus at all! In fact, clearly you don't accord Scripture the intrinsic authority that it possesses over the Christian to determine your beliefs or the way you act. So I should listen to you, why, exactly?

No more of a dodge than you not telling me why you still desire power, prestige and status even though they are not really godly pursuits.

And that's your presumption, huh? Try these on for size: (1) I declined the offer and the opportunity to be commissioned until given an ultimatum by the General I worked for at the time. (2) I declined the offer and the opportunity for promotion to Lieutenant Colonel when strongly encouraged to accept, and then over a period of four years. (3) I declined the offer and the opportunity to be ordained by three separate Christian denominations. (4) I have subsequently declined every offer and opportunity to fill a "leadership" role within the churches I serve, since. But according to you, I "crave" power, prestige and status, huh?

There is a very marked difference between you and me. You've taken every opportunity (you've even fabricated several) to tell us all how intelligent you are, how brave you are, what an overcomer you are, and so forth. Go and find examples of me doing the same.

So tell me Ian, how are you planning on proving there is a God?

I had no intention of doing so. My quest was far simpler, assessing what you believed against what Scripture teaches. But you're not prepared to suffer this, are you?

Ian


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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:06/07/2009 3:23 AMCopy HTML

Reply to Galien; I dont hold much hope for that he has already admitted to being friends wih satan. theres a wordly saying,Many a true thing are said in Jest.
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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:06/07/2009 3:34 AMCopy HTML

Firstly, why would you admit to being a friend of satan?

Aha! Now we get to the heart of the matter!
And as an aside, paul may have been an apostle but he still had plenty of pharisee in him, just like you. I follow jesus, not paul. He is my example. What paul had to say was fair enough. The way he said it, hmmm.

Well there you go. You don't follow the biblical Jesus at all! In fact, clearly you don't accord Scripture the intrinsic authority that it possesses over the Christian to determine your beliefs or the way you act. So I should listen to you, why, exactly?

Well seeing you still don't know what I believe or how I act that's a silly thing to say Ian. I don't like Paul's personality or temparement. Can't see a scripture that says I have to. In your mind I guess scripture is not open to interpretation but written in stone.

No more of a dodge than you not telling me why you still desire power, prestige and status even though they are not really godly pursuits.

And that's your presumption, huh? Try these on for size: (1) I declined the offer and the opportunity to be commissioned until given an ultimatum by the General I worked for at the time. (2) I declined the offer and the opportunity for promotion to Lieutenant Colonel when strongly encouraged to accept, and then over a period of four years.

Nice, you have learned something from all your study. Very pleased to hear it.

(3) I declined the offer and the opportunity to be ordained by three separate Christian denominations.

You did it! Your proved there is a God after all. Yay!

(4) I have subsequently declined every offer and opportunity to fill a "leadership" role within the churches I serve, since.

Thank goodness for that.

But according to you, I "crave" power, prestige and status, huh?
 
Well Ian it has only taken three weeks to get you out from behind that fortress of scrolls and start to show us the real you. Well done.

So tell me Ian, how are you planning on proving there is a God?

I had no intention of doing so. My quest was far simpler, assessing what you believed against what Scripture teaches. But you're not prepared to suffer this, are you?

Yes I am actually.
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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:06/07/2009 4:12 AMCopy HTML

Galien,

Firstly, why would you admit to being a friend of satan?

Right. And you believe "Groagan" to be a credible witness, do you?

Well there you go. You don't follow the biblical Jesus at all! In fact, clearly you don't accord Scripture the intrinsic authority that it possesses over the Christian to determine your beliefs or the way you act. So I should listen to you, why, exactly?

Well seeing you still don't know what I believe or how I act that's a silly thing to say Ian. I don't like Paul's personality or temparement. Can't see a scripture that says I have to. In your mind I guess scripture is not open to interpretation but written in stone.

I'd suggest that you've made your beliefs quite plain, thus far.

Well Ian it has only taken three weeks to get you out from behind that fortress of scrolls and start to show us the real you. Well done.

Actually, it was you who started with naught but an untested assumption, one that you accepted without fact as being credible, and which you then doggedly sought to prove. However, reflect that I've been here for years; consequently my history isn't exactly a completely unknown quantity.

I had no intention of doing so. My quest was far simpler, assessing what you believed against what Scripture teaches. But you're not prepared to suffer this, are you?

Yes I am actually.

Really? If such is the case, would you be prepared to modify your beliefs and behaviours is shown to be in error? In other words, are you prepared to align yourself with an authority greater than you?

Ian

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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:06/07/2009 5:33 AMCopy HTML

Only if you will

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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:06/07/2009 5:53 AMCopy HTML

Galien,

Absolutely. In case you hadn't noticed, I place a premium on (1) correctly understanding what Scripture teaches, so that (2) adherence to it's teaching results.

Ian

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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:07/07/2009 2:24 AMCopy HTML

REPLY TO IAN

Well there you go. You don't follow the biblical Jesus at all! In fact, clearly you don't accord Scripture the intrinsic authority that it possesses over the Christian to determine your beliefs or the way you act.

Just for the record, my relationship with God has never had anything to do with authority. It has always been, and always will be about wanting to please god because I love him. I have never served him out of fear, only out of love.
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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:07/07/2009 2:47 AMCopy HTML

Galien,

Jesus said, "If you love me, then keep my commandments" (John 14:15); and, "...if anyone loves me he will keep my words" (14:23). It's one thing to claim to love God, but the true standard--where the "rubber hits the road"--remains personal and corporate obedience.

Ian

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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:07/07/2009 3:08 AMCopy HTML


Jesus said, "If you love me, then keep my commandments" (John 14:15); and, "...if anyone loves me he will keep my words" (14:23). It's one thing to claim to love God, but the true standard--where the "rubber hits the road"--remains personal and corporate obedience.

Got a real bee in your bonnet over this haven't you Ian. I keep his commandments BECAUSE I love him. Not because I am afraid of what might happen if I don't. And it is personal for me, not corporate. If I could trust other people not to abuse me, it would be. Since I can't, it isn't. Oh and Ian, god does care more about my mental health than where you think I should be on Sunday.
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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:07/07/2009 3:15 AMCopy HTML

Galien,

No "bee", no "bonnet". Given that Jesus told his followers to submit to each other in corporate fellowship--a commandment--that is what we are to do. If we love him, then we obey him. If we don't obey him, then, what does such rebellion suggest about our "love" for him?

And how is cutting yourself off from the Body of Christ--which is universally described in Scripture as a sign of the judgment of God--"good" for your mental health?

Ian

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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:07/07/2009 4:01 AMCopy HTML

Reply to Didaktikon (06/07/2009 21:15:06)



And how is cutting yourself off from the Body of Christ--which is universally described in Scripture as a sign of the judgment of God--"good" for your mental health?

Ian


Guys,

If I may say something as food for thought:

In two of his letters, Paul makes mention of what I consider an important concept.

Romans 8:2 "nomos tou pneumatos tes zoes en Christo 'Iesou - law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.."

and Galatians 6:2 "ton nomon tou Christou - the law of Christ." and if I may unpack Galatians a little further "Bear one anothers burdens and thus (this way) you ( note Ian the verb ending inflection " ete " which is 2nd person plural ) will fulfill the law of Christ." 

So we can say that Paul has emphasis on corporate fellowship under the concept of "the law of Christ " since the verbing is plural and is therefore being addressed to the Christians corporately at Galatia..

Blessings Galien and Ianos

Metanoian

..
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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:07/07/2009 4:10 AMCopy HTML

Reply to Ian

No "bee", no "bonnet". Given that Jesus told his followers to submit to each other in corporate fellowship--a commandment--that is what we are to do. If we love him, then we obey him. If we don't obey him, then, what does such rebellion suggest about our "love" for him?

And how is cutting yourself off from the Body of Christ--which is universally described in Scripture as a sign of the judgment of God--"good" for your mental health?


You do have a problem with the obedience thing. Where did Jesus use the words corporate fellowship? As far as I could tell Jesus told people what he thought should be happening, but then left them to DECIDE whether they would do it or not.

All my friends are Christians Ian, I fellowship with them regularly, just don't go to church on Sundays. I feel sad for you Ian that it doesn't appear to be about the love of god with you, more the fear of him. Why do you need that structure where it is about obedience? What happens inside you if you don't think you are being obedient?

Has nothing to do with the judgement of god, and everything to do with me learning what is emotionally safe for me and what isn't. It is good for my mental health because I don't have to have my post traumatic stress triggered for starters. I don't have to be concerned about people such as yourself telling me what I should think, feel and do, then telling me I am a piece of crap if I don't think, feel, and do them the way you do. I no longer have tobe forced into a mental position of being forced to have magical thinking, then being told I don't believe in or love god if i don't. I cannot possibly understand what would make a person think they can tell you what your motivations behind loving god SHOULD be.

I have what is called a scrupulous conscience. Google it. I don't need any further encouragement to drive myself nuts trying to be perfect. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt, NOT going back there.

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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:07/07/2009 4:43 AMCopy HTML

Galien,

You do have a problem with the obedience thing. Where did Jesus use the words corporate fellowship? As far as I could tell Jesus told people what he thought should be happening, but then left them to DECIDE whether they would do it or not.

I find it intriguing that you would apparently wish to "argue-the-toss" over Jesus' requirement for his followers to be in corporate fellowship, one with another. And furthermore, your apparent inability to accept that Jesus himself equated love for him with obedience to him. Consequently, I'd be so bold as to suggest that it isn't me who has a very clear problem with "the obedience thing", as you've put it.

All my friends are Christians Ian, I fellowship with them regularly, just don't go to church on Sundays.

So? Meeting up with your Christian "buds" for a coffee on a regular basis doesn't meet the biblical requirements/obligations for Christian "participation" (which is what the Greek word "koinonia" properly means) in the Christian-Body-life which is the church. In choosing not to participate, you actually mark yourself out as being: (1) rebellious, and (2) under the judgment of God (and I can quote chapter-and-verse seriatim from Scripture to support these contentions, if you'd like). So I offer to you that it's naught but arrogance to willingly and intentionally stand apart from the one institution charged by God to represent Jesus Christ to the world, and to grow believers to Christian maturity. And if anyone ever needed sound Christian teaching and discipleship, it's you.

I feel sad for you Ian that it doesn't appear to be about the love of god with you, more the fear of him. Why do you need that structure where it is about obedience? What happens inside you if you don't think you are being obedient?

These comments simply reinforce the fact of your complete misunderstanding of what stands at the heart of the biblical teaching on the subject. For someone who claimed previously to knowing the Bible, I'm amazed that you apparently seek to draw such false and artificial distinctions between "love" for God, and "respect" towards him (which is what the word often translated "fear" properly means). And, of course, this isn't now and never was a discussion about structures; this is a discussion about conformity to scriptural teaching.

Has nothing to do with the judgement of god, and everything to do with me learning what is emotionally safe for me and what isn't. It is good for my mental health because I don't have to have my post traumatic stress triggered for starters.

These are nothing more than excuses, not reasons. The Christian Church strives to be emotionally safe, it does seek to nurture and protect, and it is intended as a place of love, care and support. Your experiences to the contrary were of aberrations rather than of the "real-deal". Why is it, do you think, that myself and others "bang-on" so much about the values of Christian orthodoxy? Lastly, from what you've shared in previous posts, it seems that just about anything that you find personally uncomfortable or confronting serves to trigger your particular PTSD. So what's the viable alternative? Roll up into the foetal position and spend your life in bed? I personally know of a few African Christians who were forced to witness their wives and daughters being violated, before then being butchered in front of them. I'm thinking that they would've suffered a little PTSD themselves, but they didn't seek to make excuses for "opting out". So try to bear in mind, there are plenty of people who have endured a crappier life than you. It's what you make of the present and the future, not the past, which defines you.

I don't have to be concerned about people such as yourself telling me what I should think, feel and do, then telling me I am a piece of crap if I don't think, feel, and do them the way you do.

No, but you do have to be concerned if people like me demonstrate that what you "think, feel and do" is markedly out-of-step with what Scripture requires of a Christian. That is, if you would persist in calling yourself a Christian. Sorry to point out the obvious, but Christianity is on Christ's terms, not yours.

I no longer have tobe forced into a mental position of being forced to have magical thinking, then being told I don't believe in or love god if i don't. I cannot possibly understand what would make a person think they can tell you what your motivations behind loving god SHOULD be.

It was you said that you would conform your behaviours and beliefs if shown to be in error. Have you had a change in mind, already?

I have what is called a scrupulous conscience. Google it. I don't need any further encouragement to drive myself nuts trying to be perfect. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt, NOT going back there.

Aah, but nobody has been demanding anything approaching perfection. To the contrary, naught has been proffered as being necessary other than the simple conformity of your will, to God's expressly stated will. And it's conformity a.k.a. "obedience" where you most clearly struggle.

Ian

 

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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:07/07/2009 6:52 AMCopy HTML


I find it intriguing that you would apparently wish to "argue-the-toss" over Jesus' requirement for his followers to be in corporate fellowship, one with another. And furthermore, your apparent inability to accept that Jesus himself equated love for him with obedience to him. Consequently, I'd be so bold as to suggest that it isn't me who has a very clear problem with "the obedience thing", as you've put it.

Really? Is that just because you are so used to baffling people with bullshit that they never argue the toss?

So? Meeting up with your Christian "buds" for a coffee on a regular basis doesn't meet the biblical requirements/obligations for Christian "participation" (which is what the Greek word "koinonia" properly means) in the Christian-Body-life which is the church. In choosing not to participate, you actually mark yourself out as being: (1) rebellious, and (2) under the judgment of God (and I can quote chapter-and-verse seriatim from Scripture to support these contentions, if you'd like). So I offer to you that it's naught but arrogance to willingly and intentionally stand apart from the one institution charged by God to represent Jesus Christ to the world, and to grow believers to Christian maturity. And if anyone ever needed sound Christian teaching and discipleship, it's you.

Oh dear, naughty me. Insititution? I can't see anywhere Jesus said I had to link myself with an insititution. Orthodox christianity is a man made concept, just like catholicism. But then they think they own the only true church too don't they, along with the revival centre? You lot might have to fight it out amongst yourselves. While you are doing that, myself and all the other christians who belong to the body of christ will continue to worship him in our workplaces, in our homes, on the beach and in the toilet if needs be.

These comments simply reinforce the fact of your complete misunderstanding of what stands at the heart of the biblical teaching on the subject. For someone who claimed previously to knowing the Bible, I'm amazed that you apparently seek to draw such false and artificial distinctions between "love" for God, and "respect" towards him (which is what the word often translated "fear" properly means). And, of course, this isn't now and never was a discussion about structures; this is a discussion about conformity to scriptural
teaching.

You are "amazed"? Don't get out much do you if that amazes you. What amazes me Ian is how close your theology STILL is to revival theology. You are shit scared of God aren't you? What you also forget is that scripture is open to interpertation, or is it that YOU have the correct interpretation and no one else does?

These are nothing more than excuses, not reasons.

Thank you Dr Thomason for your diagnosis. My therapist would tend to disagree, but I suppose you think you know better.

The Christian Church strives to be emotionally safe, it does seek to nurture and protect, and it is intended as a place of love, care and support.

Doesn't mean it is

Your experiences to the contrary were of aberrations rather than of the "real-deal". Why is it, do you think, that myself and others "bang-on" so much about the values of Christian orthodoxy?

Salesmen? Usually if one has a good product, it sells itself.

Lastly, from what you've shared in previous posts, it seems that just about anything that you find personally uncomfortable or confronting serves to trigger your particular PTSD.

Several things trigger it. Television preachers, certain gospel songs, church buildings etc. I find many things uncomfortable or confronting. They don't stop me from doing the necessary.

So what's the viable alternative? Roll up into the foetal position and spend your life in bed?

In bed? Mmmm now there's an idea. No Ian afraid not, clearly there is no rest for the wicked.

I personally know of a few African Christians who were forced to witness their wives and daughters being violated, before then being butchered in front of them. I'm thinking that they would've suffered a little PTSD themselves, but they didn't seek to make excuses for "opting out". So try to bear in mind, there are plenty of people who have endured a crappier life than you. It's what you make of the present and the future, not the past, which defines you.

See this is exactly what I mean. How DARE you presume to know anything about my life you pompous git. For a so called intelligent person Ian you seem extremely ignorant regarding these things. I suppose you think I should just pray and God will make it all better. You have no idea how my life has been. It's not a competition who has had the crappiest life. If the Africans had seen their families butchered by pastors, perhaps they maybe more than a little hesitant to go near pastors again. I suggest you educate yourself further both in PTSD and spiritual abuse.

No, but you do have to be concerned if people like me demonstrate that what you "think, feel and do" is markedly out-of-step with what Scripture requires of a Christian. That is, if you would persist in calling yourself a Christian. Sorry to point out the obvious, but Christianity is on Christ's terms, not yours.

No Ian, it is not up to you to run around the place deciding for people whether they are christians or not based on your PERFECT interpretation of scripture. That's what they do in Revival. For a smart man you really just can't see it can you? You have swapped the witch for the bitch. Different building, different name, same pharisee like interpretation of the bible and subsequent need to beat people to death with it. You are using the word of god to lord it over people and try and force them to accept your interpertation of the bible as the CORRECT one. In god's sight ian that is an epic fail on your part. Christ's yoke is easy and his burden is light. Yours is heavy. You are making christianity into a burden it was never meant to be

It was you said that you would conform your behaviours and beliefs if shown to be in error. Have you had a change in mind, already?

Nope. You have shown me nothing Ian that I didn't expect to see. I will pray for you that god will reveal his heart to you, and that you will stop being so afraid of whatever it is you are afraid of. Perfect love casts out fear ian.

Aah, but nobody has been demanding anything approaching perfection. To the contrary, naught has been proffered as being necessary other than the simple conformity of your will, to God's expressly stated will. And it's conformity a.k.a. "obedience" where you most clearly struggle.

You don't have the right to demand anything from anyone. Just who DO you think you are Ian, a reincarnation of John the Baptist or something?

I don't need to conform to anything Ian. What I do not have to conform to are the ways of this world and I don't have any trouble with that. I have never understood it, never liked it. I have always preferred the light over the darkness. You don't seem to understand that quite a lot of your attitudes are you conforming to the ways of this world. You just can't stand the thought of anyone not conforming can you? Can you not understand that a person's relationship with God is none of your business? But you just can't help but feel the need to get in there and how everyone how it SHOULD be done. Creepy stuff Ian.
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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:07/07/2009 10:30 PMCopy HTML

Galien,

You "talk" too much, and "listen" too little. Now whatever you may like to think about your relationship with God, you're very clearly not a Christian. The word itself means, "a follower of Jesus Christ"; something that you're simply not prepared to do: follow.

Ian

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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:07/07/2009 11:04 PMCopy HTML

Reply to Didaktikon (07/07/2009 16:30:40)

Galien,

You "talk" too much, and "listen" too little. Now whatever you may like to think about your relationship with God, you're very clearly not a Christian. The word itself means, "a follower of Jesus Christ"; something that you're simply not prepared to do: follow.

Ian


What a sick thing to say.

How many people on this forum actually believe this statement? I would genuinely like to know.

Do the christians on this forum actually believe that if you don't go to church you are not a christian?

big girl
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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:07/07/2009 11:15 PMCopy HTML

BG,

Emotive flare ups aside, do you know what the Bible teaches on the matter? Galien's intentionally choosing to exclude herself from the Body of Christ is simply a symptom, and not the cause of me pointing out that she isn't a Christian. "Christian = Christos ianus: a follower of [Jesus] the Christ". How can one claim to being a follower, when one is not prepared to actually "follow"? Discipleship involves discipline, and in the Christian context, this involves the church.

To state the blindingly obvious, once more: Christianity is on Christ's terms, not yours and not mine.

Ian 

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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:08/07/2009 12:34 AMCopy HTML

CHARCTERISTICS OF SPIRITUAL ABUSE - FROM WIKIPEDIA

Psychological and emotional abuse

  • Any act by deeds or words that demean, humiliate or shame the natural worth and dignity of a person as a human being
  • Submission to spiritual authority without any right to disagree; intimidation
  • Unreasonable control of a person's basic right to make a choice on spiritual matters
  • False accusation and repeated criticism by negatively labeling a person as disobedient, rebellious, lacking faith, demonized, apostate, enemy of the church or God
  • Prevention from practicing faith
  • Isolation or separation from family and friends due to religious affiliation
  • Physical abuse that includes physical injury, deprivation of sustenance, and sexual abuse
  • Exclusivity; dismissal of an outsider's criticism and labeling an outsider as of the devil
  • Withholding information and giving of information only to a selected few
  • Conformity to a dangerous or unnatural religious view and practice
  • Hostility that includes shunning (relational aggression, parental alienation) and persecution
  • Didaktikon Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #75
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    Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

    Date Posted:08/07/2009 12:44 AMCopy HTML

    Galien,

    And?

    Any act by deeds or words that demean, humiliate or shame the natural worth and dignity of a person as a human being.

    Who has demeaned, humiliated or shamed you as a human being?

    Submission to spiritual authority without any right to disagree; intimidation.

    If you want to disagree with Jesus' spiritual authority to determine your beliefs and practices, then it's best that you take such up with him.

    Unreasonable control of a person's basic right to make a choice on spiritual matters.

    Who has taken control of your right to choose on spiritual matters? I've simply pointed out where your choices lead.

    False accusation and repeated criticism by negatively labeling a person as disobedient, rebellious, lacking faith, demonized, apostate, enemy of the church or God.

    Note the important word "false".

    Prevention from practicing faith.

    Who has done so?

    Isolation or separation from family and friends due to religious affiliation.

    Who has done so?

    Physical abuse that includes physical injury, deprivation of sustenance, and sexual abuse.

    Who has done so.

    Exclusivity; dismissal of an outsider's criticism and labeling an outsider as of the devil.

    Who has done so?

    Withholding information and giving of information only to a selected few.

    Who has done so?

    Conformity to a dangerous or unnatural religious view and practice.

    Who has done so?

    Hostility that includes shunning (relational aggression, parental alienation) and persecution.

    Who has done so?

    Ian

    email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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    Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

    Date Posted:08/07/2009 12:46 AMCopy HTML

     Hi Ian,

    I know what YOU think.

    As this is a forum, I wondered what other posters think.

    If you don't go to church, you are not a christian.  Is that what most christians believe?

    big girl
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    Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

    Date Posted:08/07/2009 1:14 AMCopy HTML

    BG,

    Well, apparently you don't know what I think about the subject after all. You've posed the question: "if you don't go to church you aren't a Christian?", twice; attributing this particular idea to me. Now go back and read what I actually had to say on the subject.

    Ian

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    Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

    Date Posted:08/07/2009 1:23 AMCopy HTML

     Okay, here's more Revivalesque double speak.

    You will not come right out and say that you can't be a christian without going to church. You will beat around the bush and say that not going to church is a SYMPTOM of disobedience. All boils down to the same thing. May as well speak plainly



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    Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

    Date Posted:08/07/2009 1:29 AMCopy HTML

    BG,

    Please, let me speak plainly. I don't know about the supposed Revivalesque "double-speak" on my part, but I do detect the standard Revivalesque biblical and theological ignorance on yours (as is your reading into my written piece the message that you hoped to find, rather than reading out the message that was actually there). I very clearly stated that it was disobedience to Jesus' authority to determine one's beliefs and actions, which barred one from being a follower of Christ, or "Christian". I also very clearly stated that intentionally withdrawing oneself from the Body of Christ (i.e. the Church) was symptomatic of such disobedience.

    Tell me, how could I have been any clearer?

    Ian

    email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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    Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

    Date Posted:08/07/2009 1:43 AMCopy HTML

     Okay, seeing that the ONLY thing that Galien has said, from which you can deduce that she is disobedient, is that she doesn't go to church. Therefore ....not going to church is DISOBEDIENCE..Therefore she is not a christian.

    Say it as it is

    Regards, bg




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    Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

    Date Posted:08/07/2009 1:49 AMCopy HTML

    BG,

    I had credited you with a far greater capacity for simple reading comprehension than seems to be the case, clearly a mistake on my part. The issue, if you care to go back and review what has been "said" to date, has been Galien's unwillingness to conform to the teaching and mandate of Christian Scripture. Note that Galien's repeated objection has been to my "interpretation" of the Bible, and not to any demands that you think I've made on her to be engaged in corporate Christian fellowship.

    Ian

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    Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

    Date Posted:08/07/2009 1:52 AMCopy HTML

     Hi Ian,

    I know what YOU think.

    As this is a forum, I wondered what other posters think.

    If you don't go to church, you are not a christian.  Is that what most christians believe?

    big girl

     

     

    Biggirl,

     

    I for one can see that a Christian needs to “go to church” (that is being corporate) and fellowship among other Christians.

     

    To be a follower of Jesus Christ one must submit oneself to the authority of scripture alone, not what we might think or others try to tell us outside of what the bible reveals to us.

     

    If I may add, even though going to church is an essential part of the Christian walk and one needs to grow spiritually, it doesn’t necessarily make one a Christian as such, but by doing so, is an act of obedience to God that is a result of being called out by Him and becoming a part of the body of Christ.

     

    Whether the case or not, if we believe by going to church and doing this and that only, will somehow get us our salvation, then it is by our own works and somehow leaves God indebted to us, then we are sadly mistaken.  Grace and faith is a gift from God and not of us.

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    Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

    Date Posted:08/07/2009 2:02 AMCopy HTML

    CHARACTERISTICS OF SPIRITUAL ABUSE - FROM WIKIPEDIA

    ·  Any act by deeds or words that demean, humiliate or shame the natural worth and dignity of a person as a human being

    Ian to BG

     

    BG,

    I had credited you with a far greater capacity for simple reading comprehension than seems to be the case, clearly a mistake on my part.

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    Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

    Date Posted:08/07/2009 2:06 AMCopy HTML

    Galien,

    Brother! Now you're really clutching at straws! I haven't called into question BG's intrinsic worth as a human being, merely her capacity to comprehend some very simple written English


    Ian

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    Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

    Date Posted:08/07/2009 4:26 AMCopy HTML

    The whole point of coming out of a spiritually abusive church is to make sure we never allow ourselves to be treated in the same way again. It is beneficial for everyone who has come out of that kind system to have a good look at why they were taken in by it in the first place. God does not want us to be lorded over by anyone, but wants us to learn to seek out his word for ourselves.

    If our lives were defined by the revival mess, we need to learn to be autonomous adults who can search out our identity for ourseves, stand up for ourselves and search out the scriptures for ourselves. We were never meant to be frightened into serving god out of fear and blind adherence to a bunch of rules. Rather we follow his commandments out of love and a desire to please him.

    No one has the right to be heavy handed with us regarding the word of god. No one. All the years many of us endured that apalling treatment should be enough to teach us it was never what god had in mind. We have already been shown the hard side of god by the cold hearted revival centre oversight, but there is another side. We cry unto him abba, father. It is a spirit of adoption, of love and close relationship, not the cold distant god of the revival mess. We all have the same spirit to reveal to us the heart of god and the word of god.
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    Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

    Date Posted:08/07/2009 4:47 AMCopy HTML

    Galien,

    If our lives were defined by the revival mess, we need to learn to be autonomous adults who can search out our identity for ourseves, stand up for ourselves and search out the scriptures for ourselves.

    Wrong. God isn't interested in independent (or 'autonomous') adults, but interdependent ones. Similarly, the Scriptures don't exist for you to mine in support of your whim and will, but to point you in the direction of what God requires; his will.

    We were never meant to be frightened into serving god out of fear and blind adherence to a bunch of rules. Rather we follow his commandments out of love and a desire to please him.

    'Yes', but it's probably best to be sure that one is actually following his commandments to begin with, eh? Again, Christianity is on Christ's terms, not yours, not mine.

    No one has the right to be heavy handed with us regarding the word of god. No one.

    True. Just as no-one has the right to interpret the meaning of the Word of God apart from that as received and taught by the Christian Church. Yet again, the issue is one of corporate interdependence and conformity, which stands in direct opposition to personal independence and non-conformity. Put simply, you don't have the right to "make the rules up" as you go along simply because you don't like the ones given you.

    We all have the same spirit to reveal to us the heart of god and the word of god.

    It's really all that simple, huh? I suppose your naive assumption of "equality" explains why so many people, yourself included, come up with "interpretations" of Scriptural passages that deviate markedly from what the biblical texts actually state. I suppose your position also explains why Christ gave the Church teachers?

    Now could you please point out for me where Scripture supports your views on all of this?

    Ian

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    Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

    Date Posted:08/07/2009 5:28 AMCopy HTML


    REPLY TO IAN

    If our lives were defined by the revival mess, we need to learn to be autonomous adults who can search out our identity for ourseves, stand up for ourselves and search out the scriptures for ourselves.


    Wrong. God isn't interested in independent (or 'autonomous') adults, but interdependent ones. Similarly, the Scriptures don't exist for you to mine in support of your whim and will, but to point you in the direction of what God requires; his will.

    Whatever. It is pretty clear to me Ian that you are a legalistic whack job, and nothing anyone says will sway you from you neurosis on the subject. God does not want Stepford christians who plug into a mainframe. If that is what you offer in your orthodox church, that will be a firm NO THANKS. I will continue to pray for you. I suggest you get some kind of professional help for your need to control people. I will not be discussing your sick ideas any longer in public forum.
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    Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

    Date Posted:08/07/2009 5:40 AMCopy HTML

    Galien,

    Still not prepared to accept the possibility that you're wrong, are you? And the fact that I continue to point this out to you clearly makes me a "legalist" in your eyes (I'd love for you to explain to me how adherence to God's requirements makes one a "legalist", by the way). Well, as I've challenged you to do in your private messages to me, if you think my position on this issue is wrong, and yours correct, then demonstrate as much from Scripture. Personal opinions count for very little with me, a robust Scriptural defence; however, counts a great deal.

    In closing, you will continue to suffer both spiritually and emotionally, until you learn to accept that you don't have all the answers, and furthermore, that some of the answers to your problems don't lie within your current purview, experience or knowledge.

    Ian

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    Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

    Date Posted:09/07/2009 12:13 AMCopy HTML

    Galien,

    Given that you apparently wish to continue the discussion, I've included your latest comments from your most recent "PM", and my response.

    True. Just as no-one has the right to interpret the meaning of the Word of God apart from that as received and taught by the Christian Church. Yet again, the issue is one of corporate interdependence and conformity, which stands in direct opposition to personal independence and non-conformity. Put simply, you don't have the right to "make the rules up" as you go along simply because you don't like the ones given you.

    Firstly Ian, if you think I am ever going to play the scripture game with you then you would be wrong. What is the point of me pointing out scriptures so you can then tell me they don't even mean what they mean, seeing you think you know what things mean better than everyone else. Raw humility there.

    Given that God gave us Scripture to help guide our thinking and behaviour as Christians, then clearly it's to Scripture that we should turn when assessing such matters. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall you introducing a single Bible passage at any point thus far, in an effort to underpin or bolster your beliefs. Why? You claim to know Scripture well, you've very recently stated that you've been reading it since before I was born. That being so, you should be able to defend what you believe from the Bible readily enough, and you should be able to refute what I maintain from it as well. So this really has nothing to do with "raw humility" as you've put it, but everything to do with correctly handling and appealing to God's Word inscripturated. I suppose it's very much a case of "put up or shut up", really.

    As for this other rubbish written above, what ARE you on about? You sound exactly like a revival pastor telling me that now the christian church has the copyright on the word of god in the same bombastic "we own the truth" way, only they can interpret it correctly blah blah blah. Did you learn nothing at all from that hellhole? Or did you only learn bad habits that you still have?

    What I learned from my time in Revival was this: no-one has the authority to stand apart from the Church's deposit of truth, and maintain that Scripture can mean something for us today that it never meant for its original audience. I learned that the Holy Spirit is a corporate safeguard more so than he is an individual one, and consequently that no biblical passage is really open to a strictly private, or individual interpretation. I learned that God gave Scripture to the Church corporately, and not to you or me individually. I also learned that it's the hight of arrogance to believe that we can appropriate for ourselves "deeper spiritual truths" than what a given biblical passage means in its grammatical and historical context. In short, I've rid myself of the "bad habits" that you apparently still firmly hold to.

    Unity is not uniformity Ian. Get that delusion out of your head. Conformity is not what Christ was about. If he had been a tidy little conformist he would not have ended up the way he did. For a smart man you seem to lack even basic common sense at times. God did not give us a brain so we could plug into a bloody organisation and be told what to think and how to think it. At some point you seem to have lost the capacity to be involved in the things of god without some kind of external structure.

    Unity is achieved by conformity more than it is by uniformity. Each and every nerve, muscle and organ in a human body is united in the shared process of life. It's only when an individual part doesn't conform, that things start to go wrong. A pancreas, for example, doesn't function as a liver (i.e. "uniformity"), but it must function with the liver (i.e. "conformity") if the body is to work properly. So too the Christian Church. You, however, believe yourself to be an "organ" that doesn't need the entire body in order to "live". But cut off an arm, and it dies. The body; however, can go on living without the limb, but the limb won't survive without the body. Try reading what Paul had to say about the matter in the famous 1 Corinthians 12 through 14 section, then rethink your current views.

    Further, the entire New Testament is completely silent about the so-called "lone Christian". They simply didn't exist. Christianity is a faith based on interdependance rather than independance. It's corporate rather than individual, unified rather than fragmented. For a "believer" to be cut-off from the Body of Christ was viewed in New Testament times as being a sign of the punishment and rejection of the person by God! It's for this veryreason that excommunication was the most dire form of discipline that the Church could engage in. For a person to "self-reject" was simply unthinkable! Yet you apparently believe it to be a perfectly valid option. Consequently, you'd like to think that you're identified with the "Church Universal" but without being identified with the "Church Local". Why? Where's the Scriptural defence for such a notion?

    As for interdependence. Hmm. We come into this world alone, and we leave it alone. In the interventing time we have people around us. Some stay, some go. The personal circumstances of my life have shown me that apart from god, we are alone Ian no matter what bullshit we tell ourselves otherwise.

    Well your experience certainly hasn't been my experience.

    Christians are "nice" people. As long as you live the way they think you should be living. But make an unwise or in their eyes ungodly decision and watch them scatter like ashes in the wind. Very few christians in my experience have very deep love for their brethren when things get tough, or they think they might be tainted by another person's sin. THAT is one of the main things that keeps people out of the church. How often to you talk to unchurched people about their opinions of the church? You live steeped in it and you see it a certain, in my view, skewed way.

    This leads me to wonder how many "true" Christians you have personal acquaintance with? From what you've shared thus far, your sole, defining experience of the "Christian" Church has been Pentecostal. Forgive me for pointing out that such is hardly the "centrist" position on what the Christian Church is, or should be! Quite the contrary, Pentecostalism is just about as "individualistic" and "narcissistic" an approach to Christianity as one can get! But to answer your second question, I talk to "unchurched" people all of the time, and my experience has been that a little true information about Christianity and the Church goes an awfully long way to countering the effects of a lot of false information. I'd also suggest that given your very limited experience of the matter, your view of the Christian Church is the one that's skewed, not mine.

    Being a christian is not about living by a set of rules Ian. I don't understand why you have not let that revival centre belief go. You are completely bound by it.

    Being a Christian is about following Jesus. Being a member of a cricket team is about following the requirements of the cricket team captain. Being a member of a rowing eight involves working with the other men or women in the boat, and listening to the cox and the stroke. Being a member of a service organsiation involves meeting the requirements of that organisation and working to achieving its agenda and common goals. But when it comes to Christianity, you reckon it's only about what you're prepared to doand accept, huh? Please excuse me for saying so, but that's a pretty weird view.

    I have come to realise though that you are as brainwashed by your beliefs as people in revival are about theirs. Nothing anyone ever says is going to pry that bible, and your complete belief you know it better than anyone else away from you. Seems like it has become your identity now, this "knowing the truth" and dispensing it to the great unwashed.

    "Brainwashed"? I'm comfortable that I've spent more than enough time working through the pros and cons of what I believe and why I believe such to be true. But you are correct in one respect, no-one is going to be capable of prying away my trust in the Bible, unless they can establish facts that I wasn't aware of, or that I haven't considered, and that completely undermines my belief system. Then I'll listen.

    I hope for your sake that at some point you allow god to soften your heart, and come to an understanding that god is love, not rules.

    And I hope for your sake that in your reading of the Bible you come to the realisation that God's love isn't unconditional,that it's actually dependant upon obedience. Christianity remains on Christ's terms, not yours.

    Ian

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    Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

    Date Posted:09/07/2009 10:32 PMCopy HTML

    And I hope for your sake that in your reading of the Bible you come to the realisation that God's love isn't unconditional,that it's actually dependant upon obedience. Christianity remains on Christ's terms, not yours.

    Dear oh dear oh dear Ian. You poor man. And this is what you want to drag people out of revival for. More joyless, loveless dry religion. Why can you not see it is more of the same? Salvation is a free gift. Romans 5. God's love conditional? So now it's obedience instead of speaking in tongues? Praying for you. Hard.

    And Ian I said I didn't want to discuss this in public any longer. No means no. Clearly you glory in this stuff so much it doesnt work for you without an audience.

    You need to understand Ian that those of us who have been out of revival for a long time and have dealt with it are no longer able to be manipulated by guilt, shame or fear. Really trusting in the grace of god dissolves those things when one finally understands christianity is not a three ring circus where we have to jump through the right hoops to earn god's approval.
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    Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

    Date Posted:10/07/2009 1:32 AMCopy HTML

     As a parent I have unconditional love for my children, i.e. I will continue to love them even if they do wrong. I will try to set the right example at all times for them to learn by. I still expect, and will forever expect, certain minimal forms of behaviour and respect from my children, which we all would agree is morally justified and our right. Is this not the same as God? We have some rules, we are not entirely lawless and without boundaries, such as thou shall not kill etc.
    cultivation leads to cultevasion -
    don"t reap what they sow!
    Didaktikon Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #92
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    Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

    Date Posted:10/07/2009 5:00 AMCopy HTML

    Galien,

    Clearly you're confused. Revivalism was about obedience to men. Christianity is about obedience to God. To improve your understanding on the subject, I'd recommend that you turn to Scripture to read what it has to say about (a) salvation, (b) obedience and (c) God's perspective on the two.

    You might wish to begin by reviewing the conditional statement in John 14:15 once more, and then reflect on the implications of how this fits with Hebrews 5:9.

    Ian

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    Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

    Date Posted:10/07/2009 5:40 AMCopy HTML


    Clearly you're confused. Revivalism was about obedience to men. Christianity is about obedience to God.

    The kind of christianity you are talking about is administered by men like you who think they understand the word of god better than their underlings. You think it is some kind of divine gift passed to a select few (all men no doubt) through time for the elect such as yourself to beat the rest of us to death with because only you have the correct interpretation of it. Only you and the rest of your well studied mates can tell the rest of us how it is meant to be interpreted in your mind.

    Newsflash, you are all just people Ian, just like the rest of us. Just as sinful, just as human and in just as much need of the free gift of salvation and mercy as the rest of us.
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    Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

    Date Posted:10/07/2009 5:58 AMCopy HTML

    Galien,

    Clearly you're very confused! When have I ever said that I wasn't in need of God's mercy and salvation? Just one example would do. Furthermore, if you reckon that I claim to have the only "correct" interpretation of Scripture, then could you please tell me what John 14:15 and Hebrews 5:9 properly means?

    How about it?

    Ian
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    Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

    Date Posted:02/08/2009 12:25 PMCopy HTML

    This is from the book Healing Spiritual Abuse, by Ken Blue.

    The Pharisees set themselves up as rulers and judges of the people so as to create a certain type of religious community. A leading characteristic of this community was its preoccupation with purity. The Pharisees were rigid and obsessive about physical and moral cleanliness. Jews who conformed to their purity code were considered members of society in good standing. The Pharisees barred from the community those who did not or would not conform. Their power to rule on who was in and who was out is made clear in John 12:42-43. Here we see that many Jewish leaders believed in Jesus but would not admit it for fear that the Pharisees would excommunicate them from the synagogue. The Pharisees' power to decide who was in and who was out was their power to abuse.

    A significant point of conflict between Jesus and the Pharisees was his attack on their purity laws. He went out of his way to break these rules publicly and to teach against them. This had the effect of breaking down the religious-community boundaries which the Pharisees had so carefully constructed. They wanted to be the gatekeepers, controlling who was accepted and who was rejected. Jesus let everyone, even prostitutes and tax collectors, into his new community - a fellowship that was outside the Pharisees' control. No wonder they hated him.

    Personally, I see way too many parallels between the way some Christians behave with regard to religious control and the way the Pharisees behaved. People who want to have control over others for ANY reason are to be avoided at all costs as far as I can see.

    There are those who, like the Pharisees, believe they have the right to decide who is in and who is out of the body of christ. They will take any scripture they can find, twist it, turn it and and serve it upon toast if it proves their point. They want the power, and they believe they own it. From my point of view these people need a good dose of spiritual and psychological conselling to deal with the fact they have a control problem. What they don't need is another silly religious organisation to let their twisted idea of who they think are run amok.

    I often ask these people, could you sit in the back of the church for at least 2 years and not try and tell other people how to live? Most of them could not conceive of such a thing, because they really believe god has called them to tell the rest of us how it SHOULD be done.

    You mix perfectionistic tendencies with a real desire to please god, and you often end up with a spiritual meglomaniac. Think Lloyd Longfield and his many clones. Moving this kind of behaviour into orthodoxy does not make it any more acceptable, or any more spiritually healthy.
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    Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

    Date Posted:02/08/2009 12:56 PMCopy HTML

    Galien,

    You've missed the point by the proverbial mile. Again. This isn't an issue about "control", or "gate-keepers" for the faith or any such nonsense. At it's heart the issue concerns professing "Christians" deciding that Scripture isn't intended to be in any sense authoritative in the moderating of one's beliefs, ethics and practices. Furthermore, this is an issue about professing "Christians" seeking to
    completely reinvent "Christianity" in one's own image: individualistic, separatist, unforgiving and spiritually sterile. What this is is a simple comparison and contrasting between biblical Christianity, and what apparently passes as "Christianity" for you.

    But perhaps the saddest thing of all to come from your recent confessions is this: you simply don't model the sort of life that gives any evidence of Jesus Christ being at it's centre. And I'm not inferring any moral or social or similar failings by this statement, simply the fact that you clearly do not understand GRACE, its consequences, and its redeeming effects upon the life of a believer.

    Ian

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    Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

    Date Posted:02/08/2009 1:27 PMCopy HTML

    You've missed the point by the proverbial mile. Again. This isn't an issue about "control", or "gate-keepers" for the faith or any such nonsense.

    It is for those of us who have beem abused by revival Ian. You think you are the gatekeeper of who is in and out of the body of christ. More than once you have decided for god whether I am in or out. You are a typical gatekeeper.

    But perhaps the saddest thing of all to come from your recent confessions is this: you simply don't model the sort of life that gives any evidence of Jesus Christ being at it's centre. And I'm not inferring any moral or social or similar failings by this statement, simply the fact that you clearly do not understand GRACE, its consequences, and its redeeming effects upon the life of a believer.

    And you know this Ian because, hey, we hang out regularly. You see the way I interact with others, you know my friends ,acquaintances and work colleagues on an intimate basis. You are present at the conversations we have. You understand the things that are important to me, you know how I act in my prayer closet. You are such an expert on the depths of my heart and soul.



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    Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

    Date Posted:02/08/2009 10:07 PMCopy HTML

    Galien,

    You think you are the gatekeeper of who is in and out of the body of christ. More than once you have decided for god whether I am in or out. You are a typical gatekeeper.

    Actually, you decided for yourself not to be "in" the Body of Christ when you chose to completely separate yourself from it. Scripture knows nothing of the "lone Christian". However, if you believe otherwise, then you might try to demonstrate as much from the Bible.

    But perhaps the saddest thing of all to come from your recent confessions is this: you simply don't model the sort of life that gives any evidence of Jesus Christ being at it's centre. And I'm not inferring any moral or social or similar failings by this statement, simply the fact that you clearly do not understand GRACE, its consequences, and its redeeming effects upon the life of a believer.

    And you know this Ian because, hey, we hang out regularly. You see the way I interact with others, you know my friends ,acquaintances and work colleagues on an intimate basis. You are present at the conversations we have. You understand the things that are important to me, you know how I act in my prayer closet. You are such an expert on the depths of my heart and soul.

    I know this because I can, and have, read your extended comments to this effect in the CBox. They're as plain as the sour look on your face.

    Ian

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    Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

    Date Posted:03/08/2009 2:39 AMCopy HTML


    Actually, you decided for yourself not to be "in" the Body of Christ when you chose to completely separate yourself from it. Scripture knows nothing of the "lone Christian". However, if you believe otherwise, then you might try to demonstrate as much from the Bible.

    Rubbish. I don't go to church. Big deal.

    And you know this Ian because, hey, we hang out regularly. You see the way I interact with others, you know my friends ,acquaintances and work colleagues on an intimate basis. You are present at the conversations we have. You understand the things that are important to me, you know how I act in my prayer closet. You are such an expert on the depths of my heart and soul.

    I know this because I can, and have, read your extended comments to this effect in the CBox. They're as plain as the sour look on your face.

    Don't have a sour look. Spend most of every day laughing. Just because you see one facet of my life, odesn't mean you see my whole life. You have judged me unworthy Ian, and you know you have.

    Any chance the words "Sorry Galien for judging you, labelling you, calling you a crap christian, telling you that you know nothing about the bible, that you are not a christian (and by inference that god does not know, love or acknowledge you) sorry for making an already traumatised person like you feel worse" coming out of your mouth?


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    Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

    Date Posted:03/08/2009 2:45 AMCopy HTML


     

    The Wemmicks

    by Max Lucado

         The Wemmicks were small wooden people. Each of the wooden people was carved by a woodworker named Eli. His workshop sat on a hill overlooking their village. Every Wemmick was different. Some had big noses, others had large eyes. Some were tall and others were short. Some wore hats, others wore coats. But all were made by the same carver and all lived in the village.

    And all day, every day, the Wemmicks did the same thing: They gave each other stickers. Each Wemmick had a box of golden star stickers and a box of gray dot stickers. Up and down the streets all over the city, people could be seen sticking stars or dots on one another.

    The pretty ones, those with smooth wood and fine paint, always got stars. But if the wood was rough or the paint chipped, the Wemmicks gave dots. The talented ones got stars, too. Some could lift big sticks high above their heads or jump over tall boxes. Still others knew big words or could sing very pretty songs. Everyone gave them stars.

    Some Wemmicks had stars all over them! Every time they got a star it made them feel so good that they did something else and got another star. Others, though, could do little. They got dots.

    Punchinello was one of these. He tried to jump high like the others, but he always fell. And when he fell, the others would gather around and give him dots. Sometimes when he fell, it would scar his wood, so the people would give him more dots. He would try to explain why he fell and say something silly, and the Wemmicks would give him more dots.

    After a while he had so many dots that he didn't want to go outside. He was afraid he would do something dumb such as forget his hat or step in the water, and then people would give him another dot. In fact, he had so many gray dots that some people would come up and give him one without reason.

    "He deserves lots of dots," the wooden people would agree with one another.

    "He's not a good wooden person."

    After a while Punchinello believed them. "I'm not a good wemmick," he would say. The few times he went outside, he hung around other Wemmicks who had a lot of dots. He felt better around them.

    One day he met a Wemmick who was unlike any he'd ever met. She had no dots or stars. She was just wooden. Her name was Lulia.

    It wasn't that people didn't try to give her stickers; it's just that the stickers didn't stick. Some admired Lulia for having no dots, so they would run up and give her a star. But it would fall off. Some would look down on her for having no stars, so they would give her a dot. But it wouldn't stay either.

    'That's the way I want to be,'thought Punchinello. 'I don't want anyone's marks.' So he asked the stickerless Wemmick how she did it.

    "It's easy," Lulia replied. "every day I go see Eli."

    "Eli?"

    "Yes, Eli. The woodcarver. I sit in the workshop with him."

    "Why?"

    "Why don't you find out for yourself? Go up the hill. He's there. "

    And with that the Wemmick with no marks turned and skipped away.

    "But he won't want to see me!" Punchinello cried out.

    Lulia didn't hear. So Punchinello went home. He sat near a window and watched the wooden people as they scurried around giving each other stars and dots.

    "It's not right," he muttered to himself. And he resolved to go see Eli.

    He walked up the narrow path to the top of the hill and stepped into the big shop. His wooden eyes widened at the size of everything. The stool was as tall as he was. He had to stretch on his tiptoes to see the top of the workbench. A hammer was as long as his arm. Punchinello swallowed hard.

    "I'm not staying here!" and he turned to leave. Then he heard his name.

    "Punchinello?" The voice was deep and strong.

    Punchinello stopped.

    "Punchinello! How good to see you. Come and let me have a look at you."

    Punchinello turned slowly and looked at the large bearded craftsman.

    "You know my name?" the little Wemmick asked.

    "Of course I do. I made you."

    Eli stooped down and picked him up and set him on the bench. "Hmm, " he spoke thoughtfully as he inspected the gray circles. "Looks like you've been given some bad marks."

    "I didn't mean to, Eli. I really tried hard."

    "Oh, you don't have to defend yourself to me. I don't care what the other Wemmicks think."

    "You don't?"

    "No, and you shouldn't either. Who are they to give stars or dots? They're Wemmicks just like you. What they think doesn't matter, Punchinello. All that matters is what I think. And I think you are pretty special."

    Punchinello laughed. "Me, special? Why? I can't walk fast. I can't jump. My paint is peeling. Why do I matter to you?"

    Eli looked at Punchinello, put his hands on those small wooden shoulders, and spoke very slowly. "Because you're mine. That's why you matter to me."

    Punchinello had never had anyone look at him like this--much less his maker. He didn't know what to say.

    "Every day I've been hoping you'd come," Eli explained.

    "I came because I met someone who had no marks."

    "I know. She told me about you."

    "Why don't the stickers stay on her?"

    "Because she has decided that what I think is more important than what they think. The stickers only stick if you let them."

    "What?"

    "The stickers only stick if they matter to you. The more you trust my love, the less you care about the stickers."

    "I'm not sure I understand."

    "You will, but it will take time. You've got a lot of marks. For now, just come to see me every day and let me remind you how much I care."

    Eli lifted Punchinello off the bench and set him on the ground.

    "Remember," Eli said as the Wemmick walked out the door. "You are special because I made you. And I don't make mistakes."

    Punchinello didn't stop, but in his heart he thought, "I think he really means it."

    And when he did, a dot fell to the ground.

    I have no dots, and no stars. I neither crave the stars, nor fear the dots. My creator has made me who I am.

    RCI prophesies
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