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Date Posted:25/06/2009 7:03 AMCopy HTML

Having popped back into this forum after a couple of years away, I have been appalled to see what it has turned into. When first here I was able to speak with other revival centre survivors and have pretty reasonable  conversations.

Now I find it has turned into something else altogether. It is one thing to have an invited "expert" to refute the doctrine of tongues in a a bid to draw further people out of the revival mess.

It is another thing altogether to have said "expert" demean and abuse already abused people.

My time in the Revival Centre has left me with severe post traumatic stress disorder. God only know what it has left other survivors with.

I wonder if it is just always the case when you put a pack of humans together, one or two have to rise to what they believe is "the top". A position where it is okay to treat people badly because you think you have the right. A place where you thinkyou wield power, and at times you do because some others with no inner security of their own place you on a pedestal and then worship you.

Nothing gives us the right to treat other people badly. Not a degree in anything, not the fact we are holding a gun, or run a church. Why do any of us need to be abusers at all? Why would we even want to be? Haven't we been through enough already?

I thought the whole point of following Christ was to do things differently. Not need to be the best, not need to show how great we are, not need to be ego driven and glory in the worship of others. One of the reasons I no longer attend church is that I cannot find a group of humans that can rise above this tired old way of doing things.

Thank you to the people here with whom I have managed to have a reasonable conversation.

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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:03/07/2009 1:22 AMCopy HTML

Galien,


When we look back at our past we see things that have happened to us that may have an effect on our behavior and the way we think today. Each and every one of us, no doubt, has been betrayed by someone at sometime in life. I understand, being brought up in an area where one does not “fit in” and has to fend for oneself, can be brutal on a child, some commission areas can be the “Bronx” I know (I’m only surmising such is your case), and later maybe dysfunctional families and marriages and/or cultish religion can have a bearing on the matter.

We must realize no matter what has happened to us, we cannot change the past but only seek out that which is a right to peace, for ourselves and others.

Doing things for others can have its rewards, but also can be disappointing. When dealing with human frailty there is always conflict.

I don’t believe you “cannot get the girl out of the housing commission” and I’m sure Ian hasn’t a “revival centre problem” and I don’t think he would be “hiding behind the biblical knowledge”, he’s just pointing out the dangers and heresy that exists in Revival.

We all need to be “theologians” to some extent. If we profess to be “followers of Christ” then we must have that correct information as intended from the bible, not what one man has brain washed us for years in Revival as being the truth, full of lies and deception.

We all over-step the mark at times, and in the end, it is God that sees us through.

 

 

Seguidor de Christo

 

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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:03/07/2009 2:41 AMCopy HTML

REPLY TO SEGUIDOR

We must realize no matter what has happened to us, we cannot change the past but only seek out that which is a right to peace, for ourselves and others.

No we cannot change the past. Sometimes however the damage is just too great. There is no shame in it though Seg, it just is what it is. Some people are extra sensitive, I'm one of them.

Doing things for others can have its rewards, but also can be disappointing. When dealing with human frailty there is always conflict.


Yep, there usually is. I havent let the disappointment harden me though, and trust me, I've tried to be hard. Doesn't work.

I don’t believe you “cannot get the girl out of the housing commission”

I meant that with regard to the less than "christian" way I often respect myself.

and I’m sure Ian hasn’t a “revival centre problem” and I don’t think he would be “hiding behind the biblical knowledge”, he’s just pointing out the dangers and heresy that exists in Revival.


I don't really care what Ian's problem is. All I know is that it is men with attitudes like that Ian keep more people out of church than they get in. He appears to have no compassion or empathy for anyone who will not conform. That is his problem, but it hurts people and pushes people away. If he is the on the door of the church to welcome people into it, god help us all. The people he will get in will be others like himself, society's too hard basket would be too hard for him and his church anyway. He can point out the heresy, no problems. Its the arrogance and lack of empathy that sucks.

We all need to be “theologians” to some extent. If we profess to be “followers of Christ” then we must have that correct information as intended from the bible, not what one man has brain washed us for years in Revival as being the truth, but full of lies and deception.
We all over-step the mark at times, and in the end, it is God that sees us through.

 

Ok Seg. I just feel it is a bit affected to call oneself a theologian, but put that way I have been one most of my life.  I wasn't really spiritually brainwashed, that is why I had so much trouble in there with thier rubbish. What they said was not consistent with what I already knew about the bible. I was however emotionally brainwashed and betrayed in a way I will probably never recover from. I was badly abused by my parents, sexually assaulted by the minister that lead me to christ, bullied most of my time at school, bashed by my first husband and emotionally abused by my second, suffered from severe depression since I was 15. Then the revival centre debacle, followed by another betrayal so deep I barely even want to be alive even now. But I'm here, I'm still standing, some days only just. I love that soppy footprints thing where it talks about God carrying us. he has been doing that for me since I was about 15.

And your name Seguidor. What is its origin?

Galien

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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:03/07/2009 2:42 AMCopy HTML

Seg that should have said the less than christian way I EXPRESS myself. Perhaps it was a Freudian slip. LOL
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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:03/07/2009 3:45 AMCopy HTML

Galien,

And your name Seguidor. What is its origin?

Spanish for, 'follower of Christ' (Seguidor de Christo)
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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:05/07/2009 12:04 PMCopy HTML

All,

I would be interested in hearing about the church experiences of others after leaving revival, whether positive or negative.

Galien
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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:05/07/2009 11:54 PMCopy HTML

Hi Galien, we have been attending a Prebyterian Church and the difference between revival and where we go now is unbelievable. It is run in a truly biblical fashion, unlike trying to find hidden meanings in the words etc. with a GENUINE focus on love. That is the love of God and one another as the Lord taught us. Not the love of speaking in tongues and having power one over another. Could go on and on but I wont, have the flu pretty bad at the moment. When at GRC a lot of things didn't seem right and we were told it is satan getting in our ear. If you are getting  these feelings anywhere you go  test it very carefully!
¡uıɐƃɐ ʎɐqǝ ɯoɹɟ pɹɐoqʎǝʞ ɐ ƃuıʎnq ɹǝʌǝu
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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:06/07/2009 1:11 AMCopy HTML

Reply to Prezy

That sounds great Prezy. I'm so pleased you have found a place where you feel safe and happy. Hope your flu passes soon.

Galien
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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:06/07/2009 1:19 AMCopy HTML

Galien,

It seems that there are a number of people whose practical experience of orthodox Christianity is markedly different to your theoretical experience of the same.

Ian

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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:06/07/2009 1:23 AMCopy HTML

Reply to Ian from CBox

Ian I don't have a problem with authority, I simply don't recognise it, certainly not in a christian sense, or in an empolyment sense either really. When I started here I told my boss that I know what I am doing, and will do it because that is what he pays me for, but not to look over my shoulder and treat me like an idiot. I don't need to be "managed" thanks. He has no power trip issues so it was fine with him and now he has the best administrator he has ever had. He's happy. I don't drive on footpaths or rob banks, but that's about as far as it goes. I don't do anything illegal, I strongly dislike drawing attention to myself or getting into trouble. You stick a gun in my face I will probably do what you tell me, depending on the circumstances. Other than that I'm an adult and I don't need to be parented either.
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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:06/07/2009 1:33 AMCopy HTML

Reply to Ian

I am not disputing that people have good experiences in orthodox christianity, and I am pleased for them that they have.

What I do dispute is a one size fits all approach to loving god. You seem to think you have popped God in a box and can say "here he is".

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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:06/07/2009 1:37 AMCopy HTML

Galien,

I don't have a problem with authority, I simply don't recognise it, certainly not in a christian sense, or in an empolyment sense either really.

I see. So whilst you claim that you don't have a problem with authority, your admission in the very same breath that you simply refuse to recognise it, very clearly indicates that you do have a problem with authority after all.

Thus far you railed against: men, Christian ministers, theologians and even employers. I'm left betting that you're the sort of person who believes that she knows better than those in authority. So why is it, then, that you're not the "boss"? Why is it that you're simply the "administrator"?

Ian

email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:06/07/2009 1:45 AMCopy HTML

Galien,

I see matters a little differently. It appears to me that you altogether refuse to submit to God's intrinsic authority to dictate to you: (1) what you should believe, and (2) how you should act. In short, you want to do things your way in spite of the requirement for you to do things his way. The Bible refers to this as "rebellion", but I think you know all about that, don't you? Up to the challenge of comparing your beliefs on the subject against what Scripture teaches?

Ian
 
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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:06/07/2009 2:14 AMCopy HTML

REPLY TO IAN

I see matters a little differently.

I suspect you see things a lot differently Ian.

 It appears to me that you altogether refuse to submit to God's intrinsic authority to dictate to you: (1) what you should believe, and (2) how you should act. In short, you want to do things your way in spite of the requirement for you to do things his way. The Bible refers to this as "rebellion", but I think you know all about that, don't you? Up to the challenge of comparing your beliefs on the subject against what Scripture teaches?

As far as knowing things Ian it isn't that hard. One learns by picking up a book usually. How do the so called "authorities" learn? Exactly the same way. I taught myself to read when I was 3 and have not stopped reading ever since. Why do i need other people to tell me things I can quite easily find out for myself? But there are other ways of learning.

Ian you know very little about my life, how I act or what I believe. Trust me, there is nothing about rebellion I haven't heard either. It was served up to me weekly in revival. For nine years, week after week until I was pretty well incapable of discerning what was real and what wasn't any more.

I have had the luxury of having God in my life for a very long time. I had a massive conversion experience at age nine in the Baptist church. Even at that age I felt the full weight of my own sin, which is pretty unusual in a kid that age. But I am a pretty unusual kind of person. Only recently discovered I am gifted. I never even really knew what that meant. What it has helped me to realise is why I think so differently from the average person. I am not a concrete thinker.

But I have had god holding my hand right through my life. If I sat down one day and told you the things god has brought me through you would be astounded. I know I am. I remember writing a letter to god in church one night as we were all asked to do. What I said was that "without you in my life lord i would be like a ship with nowhere to land. In the midst of the storm of my life, you are my only rock, the only one I can depend on. I cry to you abba father, and you continually hold my hand, and my heart".

Do NOT presume to tell me what my relationship with my father is Ian. You have no idea, any more than I would even pretend to know what your relationship with him is.
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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:06/07/2009 2:30 AMCopy HTML

Galien,

I'll ask again: are you prepared to test what you think you know, against what Scripture actually presents on the matter? Or is it yet again a case of you not being prepared to listen to others, to those who very likely know considerably more about the subject than you do?

Ian

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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:06/07/2009 2:38 AMCopy HTML

REPLY TO IAN

Thus far you railed against: men, Christian ministers, theologians and even employers. I'm left betting that you're the sort of person who believes that she knows better than those in authority. So why is it, then, that you're not the "boss"? Why is it that you're simply the "administrator"?
****************************************************************************************

Because I have no need to be the boss Ian. That is the bit you just don't get, what I have been trying to get through to you all along. Knowing the heart of Jesus means we can let go of our worldly need for power, prestige and status, Jesus wanted or needed none of those things, and neither do I. Why do you still want them or even consider them important seeing you have been a christian for so long? After having seen first hand how destructive power can be, I never want to put myself in a position where I can destroy others with my "authority" the way myself and others have been destroyed. And sometimes I do know better, quite often in fact.
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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:06/07/2009 2:40 AMCopy HTML

Reply to Ian

Yes I am, but remember its a two way street, and we are both arguing the point about something neither of us can prove. You come from an objective text based position, I come from a subjective heart based position.
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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:06/07/2009 2:42 AMCopy HTML

Galien,

Nice dodge, but the answer you gave wasn't to the question that I posed. I'd suggest that you don't very much like the "bosses" being the "bosses", do you?

And sometimes I do know better, quite often in fact.

Well, of course you do. Now you challenged me to think "outside the box" in the CBox, and I accepted your challenge with one of my own. Why is it, then, that you're ducking the opportunity to follow-through?

Ian

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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:06/07/2009 2:52 AMCopy HTML

Galien,

Oh, one of us can prove matters all right. Your "subjective apprehension" of reality isn't binding upon anyone, not even you. Jesus, however, clearly stated that Scripture's "objective presentation" of reality, is. So why not "test" your beliefs against Scripture, after all, that is one of its very functions according to the apostle Paul. You opened up the challenge, are you now afraid to follow through?

Geez! You can't even be consistent within yourself!

Ian

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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:06/07/2009 2:58 AMCopy HTML

To Ian,Matt7vs1;JUDGE not,that you be not judged.Vs5 Thou hypocrite first cast out the beam out of thine own eye,and then thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brothers eye.  Galien;neither cast ye your pearls before swine.
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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:06/07/2009 3:04 AMCopy HTML

Nice dodge, but the answer you gave wasn't to the question that I posed. I'd suggest that you don't very much like the "bosses" being the "bosses", do you?
**************************************************************************************

No more of a dodge than you not telling me why you still desire power, prestige and status even though they are not really godly pursuits. As one becomes more of him and less of themselves these are the things that fall away. You realise everything the world has taught you is important, in fact, isn't.

I don't understand why people need to have power over each other. I think its a bit sick really.

And as an aside, paul may have been an apostle but he still had plenty of pharisee in him, just like you. I follow jesus, not paul. He is my example. What paul had to say was fair enough. The way he said it, hmmm.

So tell me Ian, how are you planning on proving there is a God?
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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:06/07/2009 3:07 AMCopy HTML

Groagan,

Well, you're nothing if not consistent! Try putting aside your Revivalist penchant for "proof-texting" for a moment, and have a go at reading that particular passage in its entirety. Broadens the vista, doesn't it?

Ian

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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:06/07/2009 3:10 AMCopy HTML

Reply to Groagan

Galien;neither cast ye your pearls before swine.

Yes Groagan, I have been repetedly told that by people most of my life. One day I might listen. Ian probably isn't a swine, but I have called him worse. I will continue to pray for Ian that the love of god permeates his heart.

Galien
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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:06/07/2009 3:19 AMCopy HTML

Galien,

Aha! Now we get to the heart of the matter!

And as an aside, paul may have been an apostle but he still had plenty of pharisee in him, just like you. I follow jesus, not paul. He is my example. What paul had to say was fair enough. The way he said it, hmmm.

Well there you go. You don't follow the biblical Jesus at all! In fact, clearly you don't accord Scripture the intrinsic authority that it possesses over the Christian to determine your beliefs or the way you act. So I should listen to you, why, exactly?

No more of a dodge than you not telling me why you still desire power, prestige and status even though they are not really godly pursuits.

And that's your presumption, huh? Try these on for size: (1) I declined the offer and the opportunity to be commissioned until given an ultimatum by the General I worked for at the time. (2) I declined the offer and the opportunity for promotion to Lieutenant Colonel when strongly encouraged to accept, and then over a period of four years. (3) I declined the offer and the opportunity to be ordained by three separate Christian denominations. (4) I have subsequently declined every offer and opportunity to fill a "leadership" role within the churches I serve, since. But according to you, I "crave" power, prestige and status, huh?

There is a very marked difference between you and me. You've taken every opportunity (you've even fabricated several) to tell us all how intelligent you are, how brave you are, what an overcomer you are, and so forth. Go and find examples of me doing the same.

So tell me Ian, how are you planning on proving there is a God?

I had no intention of doing so. My quest was far simpler, assessing what you believed against what Scripture teaches. But you're not prepared to suffer this, are you?

Ian


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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:06/07/2009 3:23 AMCopy HTML

Reply to Galien; I dont hold much hope for that he has already admitted to being friends wih satan. theres a wordly saying,Many a true thing are said in Jest.
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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:06/07/2009 3:34 AMCopy HTML

Firstly, why would you admit to being a friend of satan?

Aha! Now we get to the heart of the matter!
And as an aside, paul may have been an apostle but he still had plenty of pharisee in him, just like you. I follow jesus, not paul. He is my example. What paul had to say was fair enough. The way he said it, hmmm.

Well there you go. You don't follow the biblical Jesus at all! In fact, clearly you don't accord Scripture the intrinsic authority that it possesses over the Christian to determine your beliefs or the way you act. So I should listen to you, why, exactly?

Well seeing you still don't know what I believe or how I act that's a silly thing to say Ian. I don't like Paul's personality or temparement. Can't see a scripture that says I have to. In your mind I guess scripture is not open to interpretation but written in stone.

No more of a dodge than you not telling me why you still desire power, prestige and status even though they are not really godly pursuits.

And that's your presumption, huh? Try these on for size: (1) I declined the offer and the opportunity to be commissioned until given an ultimatum by the General I worked for at the time. (2) I declined the offer and the opportunity for promotion to Lieutenant Colonel when strongly encouraged to accept, and then over a period of four years.

Nice, you have learned something from all your study. Very pleased to hear it.

(3) I declined the offer and the opportunity to be ordained by three separate Christian denominations.

You did it! Your proved there is a God after all. Yay!

(4) I have subsequently declined every offer and opportunity to fill a "leadership" role within the churches I serve, since.

Thank goodness for that.

But according to you, I "crave" power, prestige and status, huh?
 
Well Ian it has only taken three weeks to get you out from behind that fortress of scrolls and start to show us the real you. Well done.

So tell me Ian, how are you planning on proving there is a God?

I had no intention of doing so. My quest was far simpler, assessing what you believed against what Scripture teaches. But you're not prepared to suffer this, are you?

Yes I am actually.
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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:06/07/2009 4:12 AMCopy HTML

Galien,

Firstly, why would you admit to being a friend of satan?

Right. And you believe "Groagan" to be a credible witness, do you?

Well there you go. You don't follow the biblical Jesus at all! In fact, clearly you don't accord Scripture the intrinsic authority that it possesses over the Christian to determine your beliefs or the way you act. So I should listen to you, why, exactly?

Well seeing you still don't know what I believe or how I act that's a silly thing to say Ian. I don't like Paul's personality or temparement. Can't see a scripture that says I have to. In your mind I guess scripture is not open to interpretation but written in stone.

I'd suggest that you've made your beliefs quite plain, thus far.

Well Ian it has only taken three weeks to get you out from behind that fortress of scrolls and start to show us the real you. Well done.

Actually, it was you who started with naught but an untested assumption, one that you accepted without fact as being credible, and which you then doggedly sought to prove. However, reflect that I've been here for years; consequently my history isn't exactly a completely unknown quantity.

I had no intention of doing so. My quest was far simpler, assessing what you believed against what Scripture teaches. But you're not prepared to suffer this, are you?

Yes I am actually.

Really? If such is the case, would you be prepared to modify your beliefs and behaviours is shown to be in error? In other words, are you prepared to align yourself with an authority greater than you?

Ian

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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:06/07/2009 5:33 AMCopy HTML

Only if you will

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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:06/07/2009 5:53 AMCopy HTML

Galien,

Absolutely. In case you hadn't noticed, I place a premium on (1) correctly understanding what Scripture teaches, so that (2) adherence to it's teaching results.

Ian

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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:07/07/2009 2:24 AMCopy HTML

REPLY TO IAN

Well there you go. You don't follow the biblical Jesus at all! In fact, clearly you don't accord Scripture the intrinsic authority that it possesses over the Christian to determine your beliefs or the way you act.

Just for the record, my relationship with God has never had anything to do with authority. It has always been, and always will be about wanting to please god because I love him. I have never served him out of fear, only out of love.
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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:07/07/2009 2:47 AMCopy HTML

Galien,

Jesus said, "If you love me, then keep my commandments" (John 14:15); and, "...if anyone loves me he will keep my words" (14:23). It's one thing to claim to love God, but the true standard--where the "rubber hits the road"--remains personal and corporate obedience.

Ian

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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:07/07/2009 3:08 AMCopy HTML


Jesus said, "If you love me, then keep my commandments" (John 14:15); and, "...if anyone loves me he will keep my words" (14:23). It's one thing to claim to love God, but the true standard--where the "rubber hits the road"--remains personal and corporate obedience.

Got a real bee in your bonnet over this haven't you Ian. I keep his commandments BECAUSE I love him. Not because I am afraid of what might happen if I don't. And it is personal for me, not corporate. If I could trust other people not to abuse me, it would be. Since I can't, it isn't. Oh and Ian, god does care more about my mental health than where you think I should be on Sunday.
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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:07/07/2009 3:15 AMCopy HTML

Galien,

No "bee", no "bonnet". Given that Jesus told his followers to submit to each other in corporate fellowship--a commandment--that is what we are to do. If we love him, then we obey him. If we don't obey him, then, what does such rebellion suggest about our "love" for him?

And how is cutting yourself off from the Body of Christ--which is universally described in Scripture as a sign of the judgment of God--"good" for your mental health?

Ian

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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:07/07/2009 4:01 AMCopy HTML

Reply to Didaktikon (06/07/2009 21:15:06)



And how is cutting yourself off from the Body of Christ--which is universally described in Scripture as a sign of the judgment of God--"good" for your mental health?

Ian


Guys,

If I may say something as food for thought:

In two of his letters, Paul makes mention of what I consider an important concept.

Romans 8:2 "nomos tou pneumatos tes zoes en Christo 'Iesou - law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.."

and Galatians 6:2 "ton nomon tou Christou - the law of Christ." and if I may unpack Galatians a little further "Bear one anothers burdens and thus (this way) you ( note Ian the verb ending inflection " ete " which is 2nd person plural ) will fulfill the law of Christ." 

So we can say that Paul has emphasis on corporate fellowship under the concept of "the law of Christ " since the verbing is plural and is therefore being addressed to the Christians corporately at Galatia..

Blessings Galien and Ianos

Metanoian

..
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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:07/07/2009 4:10 AMCopy HTML

Reply to Ian

No "bee", no "bonnet". Given that Jesus told his followers to submit to each other in corporate fellowship--a commandment--that is what we are to do. If we love him, then we obey him. If we don't obey him, then, what does such rebellion suggest about our "love" for him?

And how is cutting yourself off from the Body of Christ--which is universally described in Scripture as a sign of the judgment of God--"good" for your mental health?


You do have a problem with the obedience thing. Where did Jesus use the words corporate fellowship? As far as I could tell Jesus told people what he thought should be happening, but then left them to DECIDE whether they would do it or not.

All my friends are Christians Ian, I fellowship with them regularly, just don't go to church on Sundays. I feel sad for you Ian that it doesn't appear to be about the love of god with you, more the fear of him. Why do you need that structure where it is about obedience? What happens inside you if you don't think you are being obedient?

Has nothing to do with the judgement of god, and everything to do with me learning what is emotionally safe for me and what isn't. It is good for my mental health because I don't have to have my post traumatic stress triggered for starters. I don't have to be concerned about people such as yourself telling me what I should think, feel and do, then telling me I am a piece of crap if I don't think, feel, and do them the way you do. I no longer have tobe forced into a mental position of being forced to have magical thinking, then being told I don't believe in or love god if i don't. I cannot possibly understand what would make a person think they can tell you what your motivations behind loving god SHOULD be.

I have what is called a scrupulous conscience. Google it. I don't need any further encouragement to drive myself nuts trying to be perfect. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt, NOT going back there.

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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:07/07/2009 4:43 AMCopy HTML

Galien,

You do have a problem with the obedience thing. Where did Jesus use the words corporate fellowship? As far as I could tell Jesus told people what he thought should be happening, but then left them to DECIDE whether they would do it or not.

I find it intriguing that you would apparently wish to "argue-the-toss" over Jesus' requirement for his followers to be in corporate fellowship, one with another. And furthermore, your apparent inability to accept that Jesus himself equated love for him with obedience to him. Consequently, I'd be so bold as to suggest that it isn't me who has a very clear problem with "the obedience thing", as you've put it.

All my friends are Christians Ian, I fellowship with them regularly, just don't go to church on Sundays.

So? Meeting up with your Christian "buds" for a coffee on a regular basis doesn't meet the biblical requirements/obligations for Christian "participation" (which is what the Greek word "koinonia" properly means) in the Christian-Body-life which is the church. In choosing not to participate, you actually mark yourself out as being: (1) rebellious, and (2) under the judgment of God (and I can quote chapter-and-verse seriatim from Scripture to support these contentions, if you'd like). So I offer to you that it's naught but arrogance to willingly and intentionally stand apart from the one institution charged by God to represent Jesus Christ to the world, and to grow believers to Christian maturity. And if anyone ever needed sound Christian teaching and discipleship, it's you.

I feel sad for you Ian that it doesn't appear to be about the love of god with you, more the fear of him. Why do you need that structure where it is about obedience? What happens inside you if you don't think you are being obedient?

These comments simply reinforce the fact of your complete misunderstanding of what stands at the heart of the biblical teaching on the subject. For someone who claimed previously to knowing the Bible, I'm amazed that you apparently seek to draw such false and artificial distinctions between "love" for God, and "respect" towards him (which is what the word often translated "fear" properly means). And, of course, this isn't now and never was a discussion about structures; this is a discussion about conformity to scriptural teaching.

Has nothing to do with the judgement of god, and everything to do with me learning what is emotionally safe for me and what isn't. It is good for my mental health because I don't have to have my post traumatic stress triggered for starters.

These are nothing more than excuses, not reasons. The Christian Church strives to be emotionally safe, it does seek to nurture and protect, and it is intended as a place of love, care and support. Your experiences to the contrary were of aberrations rather than of the "real-deal". Why is it, do you think, that myself and others "bang-on" so much about the values of Christian orthodoxy? Lastly, from what you've shared in previous posts, it seems that just about anything that you find personally uncomfortable or confronting serves to trigger your particular PTSD. So what's the viable alternative? Roll up into the foetal position and spend your life in bed? I personally know of a few African Christians who were forced to witness their wives and daughters being violated, before then being butchered in front of them. I'm thinking that they would've suffered a little PTSD themselves, but they didn't seek to make excuses for "opting out". So try to bear in mind, there are plenty of people who have endured a crappier life than you. It's what you make of the present and the future, not the past, which defines you.

I don't have to be concerned about people such as yourself telling me what I should think, feel and do, then telling me I am a piece of crap if I don't think, feel, and do them the way you do.

No, but you do have to be concerned if people like me demonstrate that what you "think, feel and do" is markedly out-of-step with what Scripture requires of a Christian. That is, if you would persist in calling yourself a Christian. Sorry to point out the obvious, but Christianity is on Christ's terms, not yours.

I no longer have tobe forced into a mental position of being forced to have magical thinking, then being told I don't believe in or love god if i don't. I cannot possibly understand what would make a person think they can tell you what your motivations behind loving god SHOULD be.

It was you said that you would conform your behaviours and beliefs if shown to be in error. Have you had a change in mind, already?

I have what is called a scrupulous conscience. Google it. I don't need any further encouragement to drive myself nuts trying to be perfect. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt, NOT going back there.

Aah, but nobody has been demanding anything approaching perfection. To the contrary, naught has been proffered as being necessary other than the simple conformity of your will, to God's expressly stated will. And it's conformity a.k.a. "obedience" where you most clearly struggle.

Ian

 

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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:07/07/2009 6:52 AMCopy HTML


I find it intriguing that you would apparently wish to "argue-the-toss" over Jesus' requirement for his followers to be in corporate fellowship, one with another. And furthermore, your apparent inability to accept that Jesus himself equated love for him with obedience to him. Consequently, I'd be so bold as to suggest that it isn't me who has a very clear problem with "the obedience thing", as you've put it.

Really? Is that just because you are so used to baffling people with bullshit that they never argue the toss?

So? Meeting up with your Christian "buds" for a coffee on a regular basis doesn't meet the biblical requirements/obligations for Christian "participation" (which is what the Greek word "koinonia" properly means) in the Christian-Body-life which is the church. In choosing not to participate, you actually mark yourself out as being: (1) rebellious, and (2) under the judgment of God (and I can quote chapter-and-verse seriatim from Scripture to support these contentions, if you'd like). So I offer to you that it's naught but arrogance to willingly and intentionally stand apart from the one institution charged by God to represent Jesus Christ to the world, and to grow believers to Christian maturity. And if anyone ever needed sound Christian teaching and discipleship, it's you.

Oh dear, naughty me. Insititution? I can't see anywhere Jesus said I had to link myself with an insititution. Orthodox christianity is a man made concept, just like catholicism. But then they think they own the only true church too don't they, along with the revival centre? You lot might have to fight it out amongst yourselves. While you are doing that, myself and all the other christians who belong to the body of christ will continue to worship him in our workplaces, in our homes, on the beach and in the toilet if needs be.

These comments simply reinforce the fact of your complete misunderstanding of what stands at the heart of the biblical teaching on the subject. For someone who claimed previously to knowing the Bible, I'm amazed that you apparently seek to draw such false and artificial distinctions between "love" for God, and "respect" towards him (which is what the word often translated "fear" properly means). And, of course, this isn't now and never was a discussion about structures; this is a discussion about conformity to scriptural
teaching.

You are "amazed"? Don't get out much do you if that amazes you. What amazes me Ian is how close your theology STILL is to revival theology. You are shit scared of God aren't you? What you also forget is that scripture is open to interpertation, or is it that YOU have the correct interpretation and no one else does?

These are nothing more than excuses, not reasons.

Thank you Dr Thomason for your diagnosis. My therapist would tend to disagree, but I suppose you think you know better.

The Christian Church strives to be emotionally safe, it does seek to nurture and protect, and it is intended as a place of love, care and support.

Doesn't mean it is

Your experiences to the contrary were of aberrations rather than of the "real-deal". Why is it, do you think, that myself and others "bang-on" so much about the values of Christian orthodoxy?

Salesmen? Usually if one has a good product, it sells itself.

Lastly, from what you've shared in previous posts, it seems that just about anything that you find personally uncomfortable or confronting serves to trigger your particular PTSD.

Several things trigger it. Television preachers, certain gospel songs, church buildings etc. I find many things uncomfortable or confronting. They don't stop me from doing the necessary.

So what's the viable alternative? Roll up into the foetal position and spend your life in bed?

In bed? Mmmm now there's an idea. No Ian afraid not, clearly there is no rest for the wicked.

I personally know of a few African Christians who were forced to witness their wives and daughters being violated, before then being butchered in front of them. I'm thinking that they would've suffered a little PTSD themselves, but they didn't seek to make excuses for "opting out". So try to bear in mind, there are plenty of people who have endured a crappier life than you. It's what you make of the present and the future, not the past, which defines you.

See this is exactly what I mean. How DARE you presume to know anything about my life you pompous git. For a so called intelligent person Ian you seem extremely ignorant regarding these things. I suppose you think I should just pray and God will make it all better. You have no idea how my life has been. It's not a competition who has had the crappiest life. If the Africans had seen their families butchered by pastors, perhaps they maybe more than a little hesitant to go near pastors again. I suggest you educate yourself further both in PTSD and spiritual abuse.

No, but you do have to be concerned if people like me demonstrate that what you "think, feel and do" is markedly out-of-step with what Scripture requires of a Christian. That is, if you would persist in calling yourself a Christian. Sorry to point out the obvious, but Christianity is on Christ's terms, not yours.

No Ian, it is not up to you to run around the place deciding for people whether they are christians or not based on your PERFECT interpretation of scripture. That's what they do in Revival. For a smart man you really just can't see it can you? You have swapped the witch for the bitch. Different building, different name, same pharisee like interpretation of the bible and subsequent need to beat people to death with it. You are using the word of god to lord it over people and try and force them to accept your interpertation of the bible as the CORRECT one. In god's sight ian that is an epic fail on your part. Christ's yoke is easy and his burden is light. Yours is heavy. You are making christianity into a burden it was never meant to be

It was you said that you would conform your behaviours and beliefs if shown to be in error. Have you had a change in mind, already?

Nope. You have shown me nothing Ian that I didn't expect to see. I will pray for you that god will reveal his heart to you, and that you will stop being so afraid of whatever it is you are afraid of. Perfect love casts out fear ian.

Aah, but nobody has been demanding anything approaching perfection. To the contrary, naught has been proffered as being necessary other than the simple conformity of your will, to God's expressly stated will. And it's conformity a.k.a. "obedience" where you most clearly struggle.

You don't have the right to demand anything from anyone. Just who DO you think you are Ian, a reincarnation of John the Baptist or something?

I don't need to conform to anything Ian. What I do not have to conform to are the ways of this world and I don't have any trouble with that. I have never understood it, never liked it. I have always preferred the light over the darkness. You don't seem to understand that quite a lot of your attitudes are you conforming to the ways of this world. You just can't stand the thought of anyone not conforming can you? Can you not understand that a person's relationship with God is none of your business? But you just can't help but feel the need to get in there and how everyone how it SHOULD be done. Creepy stuff Ian.
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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:07/07/2009 10:30 PMCopy HTML

Galien,

You "talk" too much, and "listen" too little. Now whatever you may like to think about your relationship with God, you're very clearly not a Christian. The word itself means, "a follower of Jesus Christ"; something that you're simply not prepared to do: follow.

Ian

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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:07/07/2009 11:04 PMCopy HTML

Reply to Didaktikon (07/07/2009 16:30:40)

Galien,

You "talk" too much, and "listen" too little. Now whatever you may like to think about your relationship with God, you're very clearly not a Christian. The word itself means, "a follower of Jesus Christ"; something that you're simply not prepared to do: follow.

Ian


What a sick thing to say.

How many people on this forum actually believe this statement? I would genuinely like to know.

Do the christians on this forum actually believe that if you don't go to church you are not a christian?

big girl
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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:07/07/2009 11:15 PMCopy HTML

BG,

Emotive flare ups aside, do you know what the Bible teaches on the matter? Galien's intentionally choosing to exclude herself from the Body of Christ is simply a symptom, and not the cause of me pointing out that she isn't a Christian. "Christian = Christos ianus: a follower of [Jesus] the Christ". How can one claim to being a follower, when one is not prepared to actually "follow"? Discipleship involves discipline, and in the Christian context, this involves the church.

To state the blindingly obvious, once more: Christianity is on Christ's terms, not yours and not mine.

Ian 

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Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

Date Posted:08/07/2009 12:34 AMCopy HTML

CHARCTERISTICS OF SPIRITUAL ABUSE - FROM WIKIPEDIA

Psychological and emotional abuse

  • Any act by deeds or words that demean, humiliate or shame the natural worth and dignity of a person as a human being
  • Submission to spiritual authority without any right to disagree; intimidation
  • Unreasonable control of a person's basic right to make a choice on spiritual matters
  • False accusation and repeated criticism by negatively labeling a person as disobedient, rebellious, lacking faith, demonized, apostate, enemy of the church or God
  • Prevention from practicing faith
  • Isolation or separation from family and friends due to religious affiliation
  • Physical abuse that includes physical injury, deprivation of sustenance, and sexual abuse
  • Exclusivity; dismissal of an outsider's criticism and labeling an outsider as of the devil
  • Withholding information and giving of information only to a selected few
  • Conformity to a dangerous or unnatural religious view and practice
  • Hostility that includes shunning (relational aggression, parental alienation) and persecution
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    Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

    Date Posted:08/07/2009 12:44 AMCopy HTML

    Galien,

    And?

    Any act by deeds or words that demean, humiliate or shame the natural worth and dignity of a person as a human being.

    Who has demeaned, humiliated or shamed you as a human being?

    Submission to spiritual authority without any right to disagree; intimidation.

    If you want to disagree with Jesus' spiritual authority to determine your beliefs and practices, then it's best that you take such up with him.

    Unreasonable control of a person's basic right to make a choice on spiritual matters.

    Who has taken control of your right to choose on spiritual matters? I've simply pointed out where your choices lead.

    False accusation and repeated criticism by negatively labeling a person as disobedient, rebellious, lacking faith, demonized, apostate, enemy of the church or God.

    Note the important word "false".

    Prevention from practicing faith.

    Who has done so?

    Isolation or separation from family and friends due to religious affiliation.

    Who has done so?

    Physical abuse that includes physical injury, deprivation of sustenance, and sexual abuse.

    Who has done so.

    Exclusivity; dismissal of an outsider's criticism and labeling an outsider as of the devil.

    Who has done so?

    Withholding information and giving of information only to a selected few.

    Who has done so?

    Conformity to a dangerous or unnatural religious view and practice.

    Who has done so?

    Hostility that includes shunning (relational aggression, parental alienation) and persecution.

    Who has done so?

    Ian

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    Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

    Date Posted:08/07/2009 12:46 AMCopy HTML

     Hi Ian,

    I know what YOU think.

    As this is a forum, I wondered what other posters think.

    If you don't go to church, you are not a christian.  Is that what most christians believe?

    big girl
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    Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

    Date Posted:08/07/2009 1:14 AMCopy HTML

    BG,

    Well, apparently you don't know what I think about the subject after all. You've posed the question: "if you don't go to church you aren't a Christian?", twice; attributing this particular idea to me. Now go back and read what I actually had to say on the subject.

    Ian

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    Date Posted:08/07/2009 1:23 AMCopy HTML

     Okay, here's more Revivalesque double speak.

    You will not come right out and say that you can't be a christian without going to church. You will beat around the bush and say that not going to church is a SYMPTOM of disobedience. All boils down to the same thing. May as well speak plainly



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    Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

    Date Posted:08/07/2009 1:29 AMCopy HTML

    BG,

    Please, let me speak plainly. I don't know about the supposed Revivalesque "double-speak" on my part, but I do detect the standard Revivalesque biblical and theological ignorance on yours (as is your reading into my written piece the message that you hoped to find, rather than reading out the message that was actually there). I very clearly stated that it was disobedience to Jesus' authority to determine one's beliefs and actions, which barred one from being a follower of Christ, or "Christian". I also very clearly stated that intentionally withdrawing oneself from the Body of Christ (i.e. the Church) was symptomatic of such disobedience.

    Tell me, how could I have been any clearer?

    Ian

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    Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

    Date Posted:08/07/2009 1:43 AMCopy HTML

     Okay, seeing that the ONLY thing that Galien has said, from which you can deduce that she is disobedient, is that she doesn't go to church. Therefore ....not going to church is DISOBEDIENCE..Therefore she is not a christian.

    Say it as it is

    Regards, bg




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    Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

    Date Posted:08/07/2009 1:49 AMCopy HTML

    BG,

    I had credited you with a far greater capacity for simple reading comprehension than seems to be the case, clearly a mistake on my part. The issue, if you care to go back and review what has been "said" to date, has been Galien's unwillingness to conform to the teaching and mandate of Christian Scripture. Note that Galien's repeated objection has been to my "interpretation" of the Bible, and not to any demands that you think I've made on her to be engaged in corporate Christian fellowship.

    Ian

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    Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

    Date Posted:08/07/2009 1:52 AMCopy HTML

     Hi Ian,

    I know what YOU think.

    As this is a forum, I wondered what other posters think.

    If you don't go to church, you are not a christian.  Is that what most christians believe?

    big girl

     

     

    Biggirl,

     

    I for one can see that a Christian needs to “go to church” (that is being corporate) and fellowship among other Christians.

     

    To be a follower of Jesus Christ one must submit oneself to the authority of scripture alone, not what we might think or others try to tell us outside of what the bible reveals to us.

     

    If I may add, even though going to church is an essential part of the Christian walk and one needs to grow spiritually, it doesn’t necessarily make one a Christian as such, but by doing so, is an act of obedience to God that is a result of being called out by Him and becoming a part of the body of Christ.

     

    Whether the case or not, if we believe by going to church and doing this and that only, will somehow get us our salvation, then it is by our own works and somehow leaves God indebted to us, then we are sadly mistaken.  Grace and faith is a gift from God and not of us.

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    Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

    Date Posted:08/07/2009 2:02 AMCopy HTML

    CHARACTERISTICS OF SPIRITUAL ABUSE - FROM WIKIPEDIA

    ·  Any act by deeds or words that demean, humiliate or shame the natural worth and dignity of a person as a human being

    Ian to BG

     

    BG,

    I had credited you with a far greater capacity for simple reading comprehension than seems to be the case, clearly a mistake on my part.

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    Re:ANGER AT ABUSERS

    Date Posted:08/07/2009 2:06 AMCopy HTML

    Galien,

    Brother! Now you're really clutching at straws! I haven't called into question BG's intrinsic worth as a human being, merely her capacity to comprehend some very simple written English


    Ian

    email: didaktikon@gmail.com
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