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Warrick 007
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Date Posted:24/09/2005 2:29 PMCopy HTML

Despite what Revival Centers might say, there is nothing inherently wrong with alcohol, Melchizded served wine to Abraham. The priests in Isralel were allowed to drink wine, except when serving in the tabernacle or temple. It was used during the religious feasts, with God's approval, and was gratefully accepted as a divine provision( Gen14.18, Ps104.14 LEV10.9)Jesus first miracle was to turn water into wine. ( not grape juice )First of all, it is clear that drinking any wine, if it would be a stmbling block for someone, is wrong, Scripture is also clear that drinking too much wine destroys lives, causes confusion, makes people do unwise things. So wine in excess is definitely harmful, however honey when eaten in excess, is bad PR 25V27. What do the revival centers say of exercising self-control when drinking alcohol? Did Jesus completely abstain from alcohol?Well yes a Revival center pastar would be correct in saying that there are no explicit references to Jesus drinking alcohol in scipture ( except as a type of sedative on the cross) But we can be certain that Jesus drank at the last supper, we are told that Jesus drank of the fruit of the vine ( GK "genematos tes ampeloy") so from the context, fermented grape juice-wine- is the only possibility.We know that Jesus last supper was the Passover meal (Mk 14v14-17) Jewish tradition was to drink wine, not grape juice, at the Passover. The "fruit of the vine" could not have been grape juice because of time considerations. The Palestine grape harvest begins in the Jewish month of Elul (August-September) The harvest is over before Tishri (September-October) BECAUSE THE LAST SUPPER WAS ON PASSOVER, AT NISAN(April) SEVEN MONTHS HAD ELAPSED SINCE THE HARVEST OF THE VINE... ANY GRAPE JUICE IN PALESTINE WOULD BE WELL FERMENTED,So when Jesus drank the fruit of the vine at the last supper, we can be sure he could have only been drinking wine. Do the revival centers say that Jesus sinned by drinking wine?The Revival Centers have actully set up a string of arguments to show why Christians shouldn't drink, things like- The Levitical priests did not drink. But the Levites were also bare footed and wore turbans. Do Christians have to follow them there too? But like most doctrins in the Revival Centers are based on one or two verse's of the bible and they forget the rest. Another argument from leaders in the Revival Centers goes along the lines of, "well, we don't allow any drinking, just in case someone gets drunk". What little faith they have in members of their group! Not allowing them to drink anything in case they go far and get drunk, very black/ white cult thinking involved. Yet we could use the same argument and say, we better not eat anything, in case someone becomes gluttonous!The real basis for the rule is just another Revival center human teaching. The apostle warned of legalism in the churches " DO NOT LET ANYONE CONDEMN YOU IN MATTERS OF FOOD AND DRINK..In many ways the Revival centers trample the blood of Jesus. THE GOSPLE OF CHRIST IS REPLACED BY A GOSPEL OF TONGUES. The system of church government set up by Christ, where no one would lord over another has been trampled. The freedom in Christ has been changed to petty rules regarding food/drink and the way to run your life.
A man died and went to heaven. He was met by Jesus and Jesus began to show him around. As they walked they saw some amazing things. Some too beautiful and amazing to describe. Eventually they came to a huge wall and the man heard the sound of music, laughing and what basically sounded like a party coming from behind the wall. Curious, the man asked Jesus what was going on behind the wall. Jesus answered, "Shhhh!!! Not too loud. That"s the GRC. They think they"re the only ones here!!!"
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Re:ALCOHOL AND THE REVIVAL CENTERS

Date Posted:27/11/2005 4:29 PMCopy HTML

Heres Ian's answer:

Admin, good morning.

For whatever reason, I'm unable to respond to your posts within the same thread. So herein is my feedback on where your argument lacks 'punch'.

You started by quoting an article written by Chis Jose, which commenced with Ephesians 5:14-20. However, verse 18 of that passage specifically prohibits drunkenness, and not the use of alcohol in moderation (a recurring error in Chris' essay).

Drunkeness is a work of the flesh (Galations 5:21) - alcohol is the source.

"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these...drunkenness..." It is in this context that we should understand the direction not to drink alcohol.

Again, the issue remains drunkenness, in contradistinction to moderation.

. People debate as to whether the Bible absolutely prohibits the drinking of alcohol. But there can be absolutely no doubt that the Bible strongly identifies the evils of alcohol.

Only insofar as it is abused through excess, but the Bible gives even greater indication that wine is a blessing from God. So one needs to be very careful as to how one ?picks-and-chooses' verses when trying to prove a point.

To Aaron and the priests - an absolute prohibition: Lev 10:8-10 8And the LORD spake unto Aaron, saying, 9Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations: 10And that ye may put difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean

Aaron and the priests were forbidden wine only when they were officiating in the Tabernacle. They were not forbidden wine in perpetuity. Again a distinction is clearly made, and clearly intended.

Isaiah 28: 7But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment. 8For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean.

The above passage refers once again to drunkenness in opposition to moderation.

To kings - an absolute prohibition:

Proverbs 31 4It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink: 5Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted. 6Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.

We are made kings and priests unto God - Revelation 1:5-6.

First, Proverbs 31 wasn't understood to present a complete prohibition on the consumption of wine to kings at all. Second, Jesus Christ was both Prophet, (High) Priest and King. He drank wine. Was he guilty of misunderstanding Scripture? Did he sin in doing so? Further, since we too are 'kings and priests', wouldn't we be expected to follow all of the prescriptive commands that befall such people? Do you fellows? Or is it possible that Revelation implies something a little more involved than you guys give it credit for? I wonder ;o)

The evils of alcoholic drink identified:

Proverbs 20:1 "Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise."

Proverbs 23 29Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes? 30 They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine. 31Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. 32At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder. 33Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things. 34Yea, thou shalt be as he that lieth down in the midst of the sea, or as he that lieth upon the top of a mast. 35They have stricken me, shalt thou say, and I was not sick; they have beaten me, and I felt it not: when shall I awake? I will seek it yet again.

All this is perfectly true. Wine does present as too great a temptation for some to exercise in moderation. But anything taken to excess can have the same effect: food, exercise, coffee...

Jesus' clear warning:

Luke 21 (AMP) 34But take heed to yourselves and be on your guard, lest your hearts be overburdened and depressed (weighed down) with the giddiness and headache and nausea of self-indulgence, drunkenness, and worldly worries and cares pertaining to [the business of] this life, and [lest] that day come upon you suddenly like a trap or a noose;

There's a recurring theme to all of these Bible passages (including the ones I've ?snipped', and that is drunkenness.

Overall, therefore we are given ample guidance and instruction about something (wine and its excesses) that is inherently evil, ungodly and not 'expedient' for us. The logical conclusion to be drawn from all of that is that we ought not to partake of it, indeed that it is sinful to do so.

Nonsense. Chris has made the blunder of failing to differentiate between the excessive consumption of wine (which is strongly condemned throughout Scripture), and the moderate consumption of wine (which is not).

The case is strong, wine with its inherent excesses, is not good for us physically and spiritually. As such it should be avoided and not be part of our life.

Again, nonsense. There is nothing inherently ?excessive' about wine at all. The issue is one of a lack of personal responsibility and self-control in its use and application.

But people strongly argue against total abstinence. They say that it is not wine that is evil but only when it is drunk in excess. So moderation is ok, they say. But that really misses the point and errs in many ways to entice us to see how far we can go. It assumes control when control is so often not possible. It assumes virtue when there is none. It seeks to blend the clear spiritual instruction (i.e. leave it alone) with the accepted social norms.

Remarkable. Do you guys recall that a fruit of the Spirit is self-control. I would also remind you that Scripture clearly presents wine as being a ?gift from God', one to be used and enjoyed in moderation, just as is true of the use of all his gifts.

It is bad principle to try to identify how much of a bad thing is ok in order to try and be more accommodating to social customs. We should not dabble with evil, the social custom should give way to the Bible instruction.

The Bible nowhere prohibits the moderate use of alcohol, only its abuse through excess. Chris hasn't presented a single Bible passage that supports his contention that complete abstinence is the biblical command. All he has done is demonstrate that he can't differentiate between 'drunkenness' and 'moderation'. Now try this small exercise: delete ?wine' and insert ?coffee'.

There is but one example in the scripture where some virtue is identified for wine where Paul instructs Timothy to do something about his sickness that would appear to have been connected with bad water. He says in 1 Timothy 5:23 that Timothy should stop drinking the water and use wine so as to avoid the risk. It is possible that he is referring to new wine, i.e. unfermented grape juice. But even if he is not, this verse provides no basis to suggest that we should therefore ignore all of the other clear direction as to the evils of wine and use this as a basis to partake of social drinking (let alone drunkenness).

Just the one positive example? We must be reading different Bibles if that's the case! Anyway, ?new wine' (oinos neos) was fermented. The term actually refers to the wine produced from the most recent harvest, in distinction to ?old wine' which was from the harvest before. But it was still wine. There was a perfectly acceptable Greek word to describe the freshly expressed juice of the grape--moustos. But it was never used. Funny that, eh?

Finally, it is important to note that Jesus did perform the miracle of converting the water into wine at the wedding feast at Canaan (John 2:1-10). The question is, in circumstances where Jesus created wine how can it be said that we should be prohibited from drinking it? In my view the answer is quite simple.

First, it is quite possible that the wine referred to is not alcoholic (certainly not to the degree of alcoholic content that is common today). Bear in mind that the word translated wine is a generic term that can be applied to either alcoholic or non-alcoholic grape juice.

But the real issue is whether it is conceivable in light of all of the Bible teaching on this issue that Jesus was, in effect, providing the substance to allow the 'party to rage'. Is the message to be drawn from this miracle that we should ignore the evils of alcoholic wine and consider that Jesus has endorsed its 'social' use? I doubt it.

When you read this passage in John 2, it is clear that at the stage when Jesus performed his miracle the people were already ?well drunk' (see the governor's analogy in John 2:10). In circumstances where the people were drinking freely it would be astounding to suggest that Jesus would give them an alcoholic drink and thereby induce a state of drunkenness.

Thus it would be wrong to rely upon this miracle as suggesting that Jesus endorsed 'social' drinking and the potential ills that flow from that.

In our church community we say .00 alcohol. Society as whole would also be better off with such a stipulation. But society cannot handle that. The church can.

What I note in Chris' comments on the wedding at Cana above, is nothing more than tendentious supposition and assumption. And it isn't based on what the text states, but on RF philosophy. Instead of drawing his theology from the Bible text, Chris has read his theology into the same. That's bad.

Generally, the discussion amongst RF members centered around the theme:

People within the RF don't drink alcohol primarily to not offend or put a stumbling block before unbelievers or weak people within the church; and to be an example and a testimony to unbelievers.

An admirable and virtuous approach to be sure. But to take it to the stage where one says that to drink wine is to sin (as Chris Jose did above), is to go well beyond the bounds of Scripture, and to fall into human legalism. The Bible clearly teaches that one is to choose for oneself when to partake or abstain. Your fellowship's leaders have arrogated that personal right and responsibility, and have made it into a corporate ?rule'. That, my friends, is legalism.

What is the difference between taking a small hit of heroin or smoking a bit of pot "in moderation", and drinking alcohol? Surely these activities do not convey an image of someone who has been transformed by the power of the Holy Spirit. We have dozens upon dozens of testimonies of people who have been healed of a desire for alcohol upon receiving the Holy Spirit, or shortly after.

So what is the difference between banning alcohol due to its addictive qualities, and allowing the excessive use of coffee (which can be just as addictive)? One claims not to pander to societal norms with the one, but falls down headlong when it comes to the other. Isn't that hypocrisy?

It is worth noting that the Revival Fellowship would seek to assist someone who struggled with alcohol, only resorting to "discipline", in extreme and rare cases (and only in accordance with the scriptures). We aren't out to "enforce laws" - this is something the Pharisees specialised in. We are here to help people walk in the freedom of Christ.

The 'freedom of Christ' that you laud includes the freedom to choose for oneself according to the guide of Scripture and the dictates of one's own conscience. When it comes to the subject of alcohol, you fellows fail on both counts.

God bless,

Ian

MothandRust Share to: Facebook Twitter MSN linkedin google yahoo #2
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Re:ALCOHOL AND THE REVIVAL CENTERS

Date Posted:28/11/2005 2:47 PMCopy HTML

Revivians LOVE to smirk behind their alcohol free bars and tsk tsk at all the Worldlies and Wishywashies who enjoy a cold beer or ten. Just another law in their book to judge people with. It boosts their fake image of holiness. When leaving them it became so exciting to taste test all the flavours and beverages I have missed out on all my life. My opinion now: ehh... it's expensive, makes my head go funny, and you have to stress about driving anywhere. Fun though...

imagine all those 'shot' glasses we wasted at communion by filling up with Berri grape juice. It was like we were all pretending to be adults drinking real stuff... LOL

[LINK SiteName=Mothrust: Movies and Modern Myth Target=_blank]http://aintchristian.blogspot.com.au/[/LINK] Be nice, for everyone that you meet is fighting a harder battle - Anita Roddick
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Re:ALCOHOL AND THE REVIVAL CENTERS

Date Posted:29/11/2005 11:41 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : popeWazza2nd

Reply to : pilinutReply to : MrJonah.I love how you use context only when it suits you...ditto Jonah, especially as you deny the validity of salvation in Jesus Christ.Hey guys the subject is wine.OK, So the bible makes it very clear that red wine is ok, but how about drinking spirits?Anyone?

The subject is wine etc.. yeah. It's annoying when people veer off (or is it just me who gets annoyed?)

Spirits are damaging to the body aren't they? There's no denying that it's pretty toxic stuff. I love a bournon and it's my right to have one. Again, I think the bible is a book of good advice. It's probably healthier to avoid a bottle of vodka but it would be pretty boring to do so.

Revivians would drink a thousand cups of coffee and boast about coffee addictions. This one guy (at band camp) was never to be seen without a hot cuppa and wore it like a badge of honour. That's gotta be some level of hypocrisy?

[LINK SiteName=Mothrust: Movies and Modern Myth Target=_blank]http://aintchristian.blogspot.com.au/[/LINK] Be nice, for everyone that you meet is fighting a harder battle - Anita Roddick
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Re:ALCOHOL AND THE REVIVAL CENTERS

Date Posted:29/11/2005 12:26 PMCopy HTML

reply to- Holyandsinful

Well my first Alcohol experience was when i was about 20. This was when i was still in the GRC. I drove up to MEl one sat night, and went into one of night clubs at crown. And woooooooooooooooo, what a ride..hehe.

I knew nothing about drinks. I started with some ( and devil women i will try a spell it right,hehe...) Barcadi brezza's.

The Monday when i went back to work i boasted to the guys how i went out, and was drinking Barcadi Brezza's. They cracked up laughing and told me that they where chick drinks! LOL..LOL...



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Re:ALCOHOL AND THE REVIVAL CENTERS

Date Posted:29/11/2005 12:27 PMCopy HTML

reply to- Holyandsinful

Well my first Alcohol experience was when i was about 20. This was when i was still in the GRC. I drove up to MEl one sat night, and went into one of night clubs at crown. And woooooooooooooooo, what a ride..hehe.

I knew nothing about drinks. I started with some ( and devil women i will try a spell it right,hehe...) Barcadi brezza's.

The Monday when i went back to work i boasted to the guys how i went out, and was drinking Barcadi Brezza's. They cracked up laughing and told me that they where chick drinks! LOL..LOL...

PopeWAZZA2ND


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Re:ALCOHOL AND THE REVIVAL CENTERS

Date Posted:29/11/2005 5:08 PMCopy HTML

$%*'`[devil woman]%*'`@Reply to : Anonymous

reply to- HolyandsinfulWell my first Alcohol experience was when i was about 20. This was when i was still in the GRC. I drove up to MEl one sat night, and went into one of night clubs at crown. And woooooooooooooooo, what a ride..hehe.I knew nothing about drinks. I started with some ( and devil women i will try a spell it right,hehe...) Barcadi brezza's.The Monday when i went back to work i boasted to the guys how i went out, and was drinking Barcadi Brezza's. They cracked up laughing and told me that they where chick drinks! LOL..LOL...

                   he he he, ya silly thing.   yes they are a girls drink  lol, no wonder they pounded you. may i suggest vodka red bull to start...... or maybe just the beers, say imports-corona, heiny,asahi, stella or guiness, or local beers such as boags,crown. or you can go hard, with top shelf spirits. im a mixer of all sorts myself!

........(bacardi breezer) 

oh and my first alcohol experience was when i was 14 on scotch and coke lol lol lol

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Re:ALCOHOL AND THE REVIVAL CENTERS

Date Posted:06/12/2005 9:29 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : devilwoman [Anonymous]

Reply to : AnonymousReply to : devil woman [Anonymous]Reply to : AnonymousReply to : devilwoman [Anonymous]Reply to : AnonymousReply to : devil woman [Anonymous]Reply to : Anonymousreply to- HolyandsinfulWell my first Alcohol experience was when i was about 20. This was when i was still in the GRC. I drove up to MEl one sat night, and went into one of night clubs at crown. And woooooooooooooooo, what a ride..hehe.I knew nothing about drinks. I started with some ( and devil women i will try a spell it right,hehe...) Barcadi brezza's.The Monday when i went back to work i boasted to the guys how i went out, and was drinking Barcadi Brezza's. They cracked up laughing and told me that they where chick drinks! LOL..LOL... he he he, ya silly thing. yes they are a girls drink lol, no wondNow i just love a gla

After doing some searching it really was a big surprize to me to find out that the bible makes it crystal clear that a little red wine is Fine.

And what the GRC preaches about wine is totally false according to Gods Word

And that the bible makes it crystal clear that the wine that Jesus drank was not berri grape juice, but the real thing.

A man died and went to heaven. He was met by Jesus and Jesus began to show him around. As they walked they saw some amazing things. Some too beautiful and amazing to describe. Eventually they came to a huge wall and the man heard the sound of music, laughing and what basically sounded like a party coming from behind the wall. Curious, the man asked Jesus what was going on behind the wall. Jesus answered, "Shhhh!!! Not too loud. That"s the GRC. They think they"re the only ones here!!!"
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Re:ALCOHOL AND THE REVIVAL CENTERS

Date Posted:02/01/2006 4:11 PMCopy HTML

The Bible mentions alcohol a lot and usually in a good or neutral light. The times it's mentioned is a bad light is when people use it to excess. God has no problem with us enjoying the grapes He's made for us and the wine that comes from them (hey, even Jesus drank wine! Check out the last supper) but He has a big problem with us getting drunk.

Noah wasn't chewed out for making wine but for getting drunk on it.

Also, if the "wine" mentioned in the bible was grape juice then the word for "grape juice" would have been used) Hey, who thinks the best wine at a wedding is non-alcholoic???
"But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere." -- James 3:17
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Re:ALCOHOL AND THE REVIVAL CENTERS

Date Posted:02/01/2006 7:13 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : Slamhound


Also, if the "wine" mentioned in the bible was grape juice then the word for "grape juice" would have been used) Hey, who thinks the best wine at a wedding is non-alcholoic???

Allow me to play devil's advocate here (I drink whiskey, btw... and I much prefer grape juice to wine... personal preference... my sweet tooth). The Greek word for 'wine' is oinos and can refer to unfermented juice and fermented or intoxicating wine. ie:

  1. Eph 5:18 the command, "be not drunk with wine (oinos)" refers to alcoholic wine.
  2. While Rev 19:15 - "He treads the winepress of the wine (oinos)". Grapejuice comes out of a winepress. Furthermore Rev 6:6 oinos refers to grapes on the vine as a crop not to be destroyed.

There are many references to ancient Roman texts detailing how to keep juice from fermenting. They knew that keeping it cool was effective and beyond that they knew how to make it into a syrup so that water could be added to it later. It has been argued that the new wine Jesus produced was like fresh new cooled grape juice rather than reconstituted syrup. Although there are alleged health benefits from fermented grape juice, it is essentially good "fruit of the vine" gone bad. The fermenting process destroys much of the sugar fructose and the rich nutrients within.

Personally, I sway with the historians that liken Jesus to the High Priests of the old covenant. They were not allowed to be intoxicated during worship. I doubt Jesus would have used fermented (corrupted) grape juice to represent his incorruptible blood... just as the bread was also unleaved and uncorrupted (Paul hinted this in 1 Cor 5:6-8).

This is Jesus I'm referring to... and I'm not saying we should hold any guilt towards what we drink. Karma seems to get me the next morning when I drink to excess anyway lol... But hey, like I said, I'm a Jim Beam man, I've never developed a taste for wine.

[LINK SiteName=Mothrust: Movies and Modern Myth Target=_blank]http://aintchristian.blogspot.com.au/[/LINK] Be nice, for everyone that you meet is fighting a harder battle - Anita Roddick
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Re:ALCOHOL AND THE REVIVAL CENTERS

Date Posted:03/01/2006 6:25 AMCopy HTML




Personally, I sway with the historians that liken Jesus to the High Priests of the old covenant. They were not allowed to be intoxicated during worship. I doubt Jesus would have used fermented (corrupted) grape juice to represent his incorruptible blood... just as the bread was also unleaved and uncorrupted (Paul hinted this in 1 Cor 5:6-8).




Two questions:
- Where do you get the concept that fermented grapes were corrupted?
- Where do you get the concept that Jesus' blood was incorruptible?

His body was made inccoruptable only after his ressurection. Before then, he would have gotten food poisoning, sun burn, colds etc. whcih would have "corrupted" his blood. But the point is that He was without sin while living in a very human body.

Also, I think there is a difference between drinking wine and getting drunk. Jesus never got drunk as this was a sin. I can't tell you what his blood alcohol reading was but he was always about his Father's business yet took wine.

Wine is linked to many religious celebrations layed down by God, including the Passover. I think if this had been important to God He would have said: "Now, I know I said "oinos" but make sure it's grape juice only! I don't want no alcohol at this celebration or you will all be corrupted".

BTW, what's the OT/Hebrew definition of wine and grape juice?
"But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere." -- James 3:17
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Re:ALCOHOL AND THE REVIVAL CENTERS

Date Posted:03/01/2006 3:00 PMCopy HTML

$%*'`[anon]%*'`@Reply to : Slamhound

Two questions:- Where do you get the concept that fermented grapes were corrupted?- Where do you get the concept that Jesus' blood was incorruptible?His body was made inccoruptable only after his ressurection. Before then, he would have gotten food poisoning, sun burn, colds etc. whcih would have "corrupted" his blood. But the point is that He was without sin while living in a very human body.Also, I thin

but once baptized and received H.S rnt things not seen by God anynore?? isnt it our own conscience that tells us this or that is wrong? i just dont get how if you drink and do drugs u cant get into the kingdom of god?i mean our natural bodies will be dead anyway and its the soul that goes so therefore drunk,stoned etc what does it matter. obviously i have not been taught well in sunday school or youngies??shame on u teachers!

im open to someone elses opinion-note opinion! not bashing

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Re:ALCOHOL AND THE REVIVAL CENTERS

Date Posted:03/01/2006 3:52 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : Slamhound

Hi TICK... loved that show. Cool avatar... Remember, I'm just playing devil's advocate here... enjoy a debate, whether I believe it or not.

- Where do you get the concept that fermented grapes were corrupted?

The fermentation process strips away much of the nutrients and sugars in grape juice.

- Where do you get the concept that Jesus' blood was incorruptible?


In 1 Peter 1:18-19, Peter says we are not redeemed by corruptible things like silver and gold but rather by Jesus blood. The incorruptible nature is inferred but I suppose we can interpret it as purely figurative...


His body was made inccoruptable only after his ressurection. Before then, he would have gotten food poisoning, sun burn, colds etc. whcih would have "corrupted" his blood. But the point is that He was without sin while living in a very human body.

I Peter describes Jesus as the lamb without blemish or spot. I think the suggestion is made that he was an incorrupted lamb at the time of his sacrifice, perfect physically and spiritually. I suppose he could have got a sunburn or coldsore but He seems to have been good at instant healings.. was this before or after His baptism though?

Also, I think there is a difference between drinking wine and getting drunk. Jesus never got drunk as this was a sin. I can't tell you what his blood alcohol reading was but he was always about his Father's business yet took wine.

You think there is a difference but it is subjective hey? Good point about the alcohol reading... different ages and body sizes and body systems react very differently to alcohol. It's a bit of a guessing game.. a fine line between swilling and sinning. Also, christians are also telling me how it's bad to drink if there are recovering alcoholics around as it is tempting them. What if they are drinking in a room and they are not sure who's suffering from a drinking problem. You many be offending someone in ignorance.

Wine is linked to many religious celebrations layed down by God, including the Passover. I think if this had been important to God He would have said: "Now, I know I said "oinos" but make sure it's grape juice only! I don't want no alcohol at this celebration or you will all be corrupted".

Maybe it went without saying. All I'm saying is that the concept of the wine at the passover being alcoholic or otherwise is not a definite absolute according to many different studies.

BTW, what's the OT/Hebrew definition of wine and grape juice? 

I'll get back to you on this, I've found some interesting stuff


[LINK SiteName=Mothrust: Movies and Modern Myth Target=_blank]http://aintchristian.blogspot.com.au/[/LINK] Be nice, for everyone that you meet is fighting a harder battle - Anita Roddick
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Re:ALCOHOL AND THE REVIVAL CENTERS

Date Posted:04/01/2006 3:12 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : HarryandSally



Reply to : SlamhoundHiTICK... loved that show.




Why the past tense?? Did you do a silly thing and grow up.



You think there is a difference but it is subjective hey? Good point about the alcohol reading... different ages and body sizes and body systems react very differently to alcohol. It's a bit of a guessing game.. a fine line between swilling and sinning. Also, christians are also telling me how it's bad to drink if there are recovering alcoholics around as it is tempting them. What if they are drinking in a room and they are not sure who's suffering from a drinking problem. You many be offending someone in ignorance.




I think anon put it the best when he/she said:
"isnt it our own conscience that tells us this or that is wrong?" Boy, that anon posts a lot!! )
"But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere." -- James 3:17
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Re:ALCOHOL AND THE REVIVAL CENTERS

Date Posted:04/01/2006 7:59 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : Slamhound

Why the past tense?? Did you do a silly thing and grow up.You think there is a difference but it is subjective hey? Good point about the alcohol reading... different ages and body sizes and body systems react very differently to alcohol. It's a bit of a guessing game.. a fine line between swilling and sinning. Also, christians are also telling me how it's bad to drink if there are recovering alcoholics around as it is tempting them. What if they are drinking in a room and they are not sure who's suffering from a drinking problem. You many be offending someone in ignorance.

No I gave up on trying to grow up a long time ago... past tense because I don't have cable and therefore don't see it anymore.

Getting drunk/stoned, on the other hand, defiles the temple of God by treating it poorly. I think anon put it the best when he/she said:
"isnt it our own conscience that tells us this or that is wrong?"

Yep, and there's the yardstick, our own consience. And it's the opinion of some that coffee or refined sugars defiles the temple or that over eating defiles the temple or that drinking unfiltered tapwater undefiles and blah blah blah... I think the temple analogy is a little egotistical of some. As if the spirit is so fragile that it needs it's human encasing to be physically fit to some degree. What the! Is the Holy spirit grieving if the host body is overweight. Just seems kinda nutty to me.

If getting drunk/stoned defiles the body, does getting a tiny bit drunk difile just a little? And if you do get drunk and defiled, do you become undefiled after the hangover?

[LINK SiteName=Mothrust: Movies and Modern Myth Target=_blank]http://aintchristian.blogspot.com.au/[/LINK] Be nice, for everyone that you meet is fighting a harder battle - Anita Roddick
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Re:ALCOHOL AND THE REVIVAL CENTERS

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Reply to : anon [Anonymous]

Reply to : SlamhoundTwo questions:- Where do you get the concept that fermented grapes were corrupted?- Where do you get the concept that Jesus' blood was incorruptible?His body was made inccoruptable only after his ressurection. Before then, he would have gotten food poisoning, sun burn, colds etc. whcih would have "corrupted" his blood. But the point is that He was without sin while living in a very human body.Also, I thinbut once baptized and received H.S rnt things not seen by God anynore?? isnt it our own conscience that tells us this or that is wrong? i just dont get how if you drink and do drugs u cant get into the kingdom of god?i mean our natural bodies will be dead anyway and its the soul that goes so therefore drunk,stoned etc what does it ma
I think that your not suopposed to drink the fermented wine or do drugs ect as when intoxicated you lose control of rational thinking and could commit sinful acts. Everyone who has ever been drunk would have behaved differently and done things or said things that they wouldn't normally have done. I suppose it could let the devil in
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Re:ALCOHOL AND THE REVIVAL CENTERS

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The New testament isn't concerned about what you eat and drink apparently. 

 

Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
 
 
Mat 15:11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
 
It has a bit to say about drunkeness...but not the drinking of alcohol.  Do the former but avoid the latter and you seem to be in accord with the NT.
 
Tee-totalling Christians really have no evidence AT ALL to supprt their claim to alcohol abstinence other than their tradtion which is on about 300 years old.
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Re:ALCOHOL AND THE REVIVAL CENTERS

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There are lots of drinks and foods that are addictive and health harming but with alcohol the immediate evidence is a temporary loss of ones senses i.e. you get drunk. It is probably this offensive state that  the Churches took offence with and took the stance they have. Alcohol has many effects on the body but so do a lot of other drinks such as coffee, and soft drinks. They all harm the body that God created. The Churches should be promoting a healthy diet that advises the drinking of water and eating of natural foods such as grains.  
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Re:ALCOHOL AND THE REVIVAL CENTERS

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$%*'`[Scott]%*'`@Reply to : Waz in the GRC

Despite what Revival Centers might say, there is nothing inherently wrong with alcohol, Melchizded served wine to Abraham. The priests in Isralel were allowed to drink wine, except when serving in the tabernacle or temple. It was used during the religious feasts, with God's approval, and was gratefully accepted as a divine provision( Gen14.18, Ps104.14 LEV10.9)Jesus first miracle was to turn water into wine. ( not grape juice )First of all, it is clear that drinking any wine, if it would be a stmbling block for someone, is wrong, Scripture is also clear that drinking too much wine destroys lives, causes confusion, makes people do unwise things. So wine in excess is definitely harmful, however honey when eaten in excess, is bad PR 25V27. What do the revival centers say of exercising self-control when drinking alcohol? Did Jesus completely abstain from
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Re:ALCOHOL AND THE REVIVAL CENTERS

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Well said PopeWazza, but be carefull with saying that Jesus drank wine on the cross to sedate his pain, from memory it was vinegar mixed with gall and although it was put to his lips he did not partake. Keep in mind this is from memory and I do not have a bible at hand to look this up precisely.
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Re:ALCOHOL AND THE REVIVAL CENTERS

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Avenger dude I take it you are talking about other means to release serotonin and dopamine in the brain...like ecstacy!

I find no scripture in support of drugs however, neither against them. But "be sober minded" would surely have to include not being stoned right?

I wonder if getting stoned refers to hardening of the heart? Ive heard this once before at some church. Lets stick on the subject of alchohal. Anyone feel like a drink?

Im lonely now I left the revival centre. Then again I was lonely when I joined and when I was with them.
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Re:ALCOHOL AND THE REVIVAL CENTERS

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Yes especially since caffein is a stimulant just like speed and the action it has on your metabolism.

Caffein is also a toxic substance the body can only hadle in small amounts, higher amounts are poisonous, and only tiny drop directly on the brain will kill you!

Perhaps the mormons have the truth??

Nah

What does all this have to do with wine???
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Re:ALCOHOL AND THE REVIVAL CENTERS

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I you want a temperary high try spinning around in a chair or better yet blow up an air mattress

Jesus 'Healed
Using Cannabis'

By Duncan Campbell in Los Angeles
The Guardian - UK
1-7-6

Jesus as almost certainly a cannabis user and an early proponent of the medicinal properties of the drug, according to a study of scriptural texts published this month. The study suggests that Jesus and his disciples used the drug to carry out miraculous healings.

The anointing oil used by Jesus and his disciples contained an ingredient called kaneh-bosem which has since been identified as cannabis extract, according to an article by Chris Bennett in the drugs magazine, High Times, entitled Was Jesus a Stoner? The incense used by Jesus in ceremonies also contained a cannabis extract, suggests Mr Bennett, who quotes scholars to back his claims.

"There can be little doubt about a role for cannabis in Judaic religion," Carl Ruck, professor of classical mythology at Boston University said.

Referring to the existence of cannabis in anointing oils used in ceremonies, he added: "Obviously the easy availability and long-established tradition of cannabis in early Judaism _ would inevitably have included it in the [Christian] mixtures."

Mr Bennett suggests those anointed with the oils used by Jesus were "literally drenched in this potent mixture _ Although most modern people choose to smoke or eat pot, when its active ingredients are transferred into an oil-based carrier, it can also be absorbed through the skin".

Quoting the New Testament, Mr Bennett argues that Jesus anointed his disciples with the oil and encouraged them to do the same with other followers. This could have been responsible for healing eye and skin diseases referred to in the Gospels.

"If cannabis was one of the main ingredients of the ancient anointing oil _ and receiving this oil is what made Jesus the Christ and his followers Christians, then persecuting those who use cannabis could be considered anti-Christ," Mr Bennett concludes.

Copyright Guardian Newspapers Limited


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Re:ALCOHOL AND THE REVIVAL CENTERS

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Reply to : Anonymous



'HealedUsing Cannabis'By Duncan Campbell in Los AngelesThe Guardian -




"They won't belive the worst so they'll belive in anything" -- DA

Have scientists discovered that Mohammad was an alcoholic or that Budda achieved enlightenment through opium use? Why is it safe to belittle Jesus (the One True God) and what He did yet it's outrageous to try it to other "religious" leaders?
"But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere." -- James 3:17
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Re:ALCOHOL AND THE REVIVAL CENTERS

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Reply to : Slamhound

"They won't belive the worst so they'll belive in anything" -- DAHave scientists discovered that Mohammad was an alcoholic or that Budda achieved enlightenment through opium use? Why is it safe to belittle Jesus (the One True God) and what He did yet it's outrageous to try it to other "religious" leaders?

No it isn't.  Have you read the theories on Mohammed's visions being kinds of seizures?  Lots of that around.  Or Jospeh Smith (Mormon) was a charlatan and treasure seeker?  Or Buddha was a spoiled rich kid who neber actually suffered with the poor as he always had 'an out' and could return to his rich family at any time?  Jesus is a big target in the west and so gets the bulk of it that we hear, but it goes on with other religious leaders too. 

Knocking Jesus makes him no more God than knocking the Catholics make them the true church.

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Re:ALCOHOL AND THE REVIVAL CENTERS

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Reply to : Anonymous

Well said PopeWazza, but be carefull with saying that Jesus drank wine on the cross to sedate his pain, from memory it was vinegar mixed with gall and although it was put to his lips he did not partake. Keep in mind this is from memory and I do not have a bible at hand to look this up precisely.

 

Gall was a bitter, poisonous herb. This may have been the poppy or some other wild poisonous plant. Gall is used figuratively to mean a bitter punishment (Jeremiah 8:14; 9:15; 23:15) or any bitter experience (Acts 8:23). Gall and vinegar were offered to Jesus on the cross (Matthew 27:34), but He refused the drink.

 
            Vinegar was a drink made from wine that had been soured or overfermented. In accordance with their vow, the NAZIRITES separated themselves from any product of the grapevine, including vinegar (Numbers 6:3). The psalmist complained that his enemies had given him gall for food and vinegar to drink (Psalms 69:21). Vinegar was used by farm families as a relish in which to dip parched grain (Ruth 2:14; wine vinegar, NIV; sour wine, NEB).
            In the New Testament, the word vinegar is used only in reference to Jesus' crucifixion (Matthew 27:34,48; Mark 15:36; Luke 23:36; John 19:29-30, KJV; sour wine, NKJV). Before Jesus was nailed to the cross, "they gave Him sour wine mingled with gall to drink" (Matthew 27:34). He was offered the same drink again shortly before He died (Luke 23:36). After Jesus had hung on the cross for three hours, and shortly before He yielded up His spirit, He was again offered sour wine, which He received (Matthew 27:48; Mark 15:36; Luke 23:36; John 19:29-30).

A man died and went to heaven. He was met by Jesus and Jesus began to show him around. As they walked they saw some amazing things. Some too beautiful and amazing to describe. Eventually they came to a huge wall and the man heard the sound of music, laughing and what basically sounded like a party coming from behind the wall. Curious, the man asked Jesus what was going on behind the wall. Jesus answered, "Shhhh!!! Not too loud. That"s the GRC. They think they"re the only ones here!!!"
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Re:ALCOHOL AND THE REVIVAL CENTERS

Date Posted:15/01/2006 7:02 AMCopy HTML

Ian's first post:
Righto my 'nameless-and-faceless' collective of friends, it's time for my first 'serious' post in this new format.

The RF completely eschews the consumption of alcoholic beverages in any form, but further, actively disciplines those members who choose to partake of the same (but in moderation, one would hope).

Now I offer to you that Scripture doesn't command abstinence as a necessary corollary to godliness at all. Further, that your fellowship's enforced 'teetotalism' is the result of naively furthering certain cultural baggage that was carried over from the puritanical 'wowserism' of the early Pentecostal movement.

So on what (biblical/theological) grounds does the RF prescribe enforced abstinence from alcoholic beverages to all within your fellowship? Is this a teaching from Scripture that was promoted from the earliest of times, or is it a very recent novelty that owes more to post Victorian-era 'wowserism' than to apostolic command?

I await your reasoned (and collective) reply ;o) Blessings, Ian


Revival Reply: Thankyou for you question.

First a disclaimer: Parts of the following response may not necessarily be endorsed, nor agreed upon by "The Revival Fellowship". It is a conglomeration of responses made by active members of the Revival Fellowship. Their intention is to respond truthfully, but the opinions contained therein may differ from any official opinion of "The Revival Fellowship" (if such an opinion does in fact exist).

For those readers who are less scholarly than Ian, here are some definitions of words used in his enquiry:

teetoalism - the principle or practice of total abstinence from intoxicating drink.
puritanical - very strict in moral or religious matters, often excessively so; rigidly austere.
wowserism - (Aus. slang) an excessively puritanical person.

Alcohol - the Bible and the Revival Fellowship
By Pastor Chris Jose, Melbourne Revival Fellowship, May 2005

Could you go over the Scriptures about not drinking alcohol?

Ephesians 5:14-20
14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
15 See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,
16 Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.
17 Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.
18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;

. Note that this instruction is given in the context of a direction to leave aside various evil practices that are a part of the world (see Eph 5:1-16).
- the chapter starts with a direction to be followers of God (v.1)
- having at one time been in darkness we are now the children of light (v.8)
- we are not to have fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness (v.11)
- there is within wine, excess

Drunkeness is a work of the flesh (Galations 5:21) - alcohol is the source.
"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these...drunkenness..."
It is in this context that we should understand the direction not to drink alcohol.

. People debate as to whether the Bible absolutely prohibits the drinking of alcohol. But there can be absolutely no doubt that the Bible strongly identifies the evils of alcohol.

To Aaron and the priests - an absolute prohibition:
Lev 10:8-10 8And the LORD spake unto Aaron, saying, 9Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations: 10And that ye may put difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean

Isaiah 28: 7But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment. 8For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean.

To kings - an absolute prohibition:
Proverbs 31 4It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink: 5Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted. 6Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.
We are made kings and priests unto God - Revelation 1:5-6.

The evils of alcoholic drink identified:
Proverbs 20:1 "Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise."
Proverbs 23 29Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes? 30 They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine. 31Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. 32At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder. 33Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things. 34Yea, thou shalt be as he that lieth down in the midst of the sea, or as he that lieth upon the top of a mast. 35They have stricken me, shalt thou say, and I was not sick; they have beaten me, and I felt it not: when shall I awake? I will seek it yet again.

Jesus' clear warning:
Luke 21 (AMP) 34But take heed to yourselves and be on your guard, lest your hearts be overburdened and depressed (weighed down) with the giddiness and headache and nausea of self-indulgence, drunkenness, and worldly worries and cares pertaining to [the business of] this life, and [lest] that day come upon you suddenly like a trap or a noose;

A way of the past:
1 Pet 4:3-5 3For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries: 4Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you: 5Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.

The consequence of excess alcohol:
Isaiah 5: 11Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning, that they may follow strong drink; that continue until night, till wine inflame them! 12And the harp, and the viol, the tabret, and pipe, and wine, are in their feasts: but they regard not the work of the LORD, neither consider the operation of his hands. 13Therefore my people are gone into captivity, because they have no knowledge: and their honourable men are famished, and their multitude dried up with thirst.
22Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink:

Qualifications for a leader in the church:
1 Tim 3:2-3 2A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; 3Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
8Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
Titus 1:7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;

Don't drink wine that may cause a brother to stumble, be offended or made weak:
Rom 14:21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

Abstinence observed under the Nazarite vow:
Numbers 6 2Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When either man or woman shall separate themselves to vow a vow of a Nazarite, to separate themselves unto the LORD: 3He shall separate himself from wine and strong drink, and shall drink no vinegar of wine, or vinegar of strong drink, neither shall he drink any liquor of grapes, nor eat moist grapes, or dried.
See also Judges 13:4, 7, 14 re Samson and 1 Samuel 1:11 re Samuel and Luke 1:15 re John the Baptist

Abstinence is a sign of particular observance to God:
Deut 29 6Ye have not eaten bread, neither have ye drunk wine or strong drink: that ye might know that I am the LORD your God.
1 Samuel 1:15 And Hannah answered and said, No, my lord, I am a woman of a sorrowful spirit: I have drunk neither wine nor strong drink, but have poured out my soul before the LORD.

Don't give alcoholic drink others:
Habakkuk 2:15 Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink, that puttest thy bottle to him, and makest him drunken also, that thou mayest look on their nakedness!

Alcoholic wine is a lure to the foolish and ungodly:
Micah 2(AMP) 11If a man walking in a spirit [of vanity] and in falsehood should lie and say, I will prophesy to you of wine and strong drink, O Israel, he would even be the acceptable prophet of this people!

Alcoholic wine is a tool of the blind watchman:
Isaiah 56: 10His watchmen are blind: they are all ignorant, they are all dumb dogs, they cannot bark; sleeping, lying down, loving to slumber. 11Yea, they are greedy dogs which can never have enough, and they are shepherds that cannot understand: they all look to their own way, every one for his gain, from his quarter. 12Come ye, say they, I will fetch wine, and we will fill ourselves with strong drink; and to morrow shall be as this day, and much more abundant.

Overall, therefore we are given ample guidance and instruction about something (wine and its excesses) that is inherently evil, ungodly and not 'expedient' for us. The logical conclusion to be drawn from all of that is that we ought not to partake of it, indeed that it is sinful to do so.

The case is strong, wine with its inherent excesses, is not good for us physically and spiritually. As such it should be avoided and not be part of our life.

But people strongly argue against total abstinence. They say that it is not wine that is evil but only when it is drunk in excess. So moderation is ok, they say. But that really misses the point and errs in many ways to entice us to see how far we can go. It assumes control when control is so often not possible. It assumes virtue when there is none. It seeks to blend the clear spiritual instruction (i.e. leave it alone) with the accepted social norms.

It is bad principle to try to identify how much of a bad thing is ok in order to try and be more accommodating to social customs. We should not dabble with evil, the social custom should give way to the Bible instruction.

It is not God's purpose to give us such clear instructions to stay away from alcoholic drinks so that we might then test to see how much of it we might indulge in. This is a classic trick employed by Satan and his world - have a look at the temptation in the Garden 'Ye shall not surely die', Genesis 3:4. Eve saw the natural appeal in something she characterised as 'good', 'pleasant' and 'to be desired'. This appeal to what we as natural beings see as the pleasurable consequences of taking a bite (or taking a drink) is what the call for having a little bit of an evil thing is all about.
It is just wrong to suggest that a little bit of a bad thing is ok. It is not.

There is but one example in the scripture where some virtue is identified for wine where Paul instructs Timothy to do something about his sickness that would appear to have been connected with bad water. He says in 1 Timothy 5:23 that Timothy should stop drinking the water and use wine so as to avoid the risk. It is possible that he is referring to new wine, i.e. unfermented grape juice. But even if he is not, this verse provides no basis to suggest that we should therefore ignore all of the other clear direction as to the evils of wine and use this as a basis to partake of social drinking (let alone drunkenness).

Finally, it is important to note that Jesus did perform the miracle of converting the water into wine at the wedding feast at Canaan (John 2:1-10). The question is, in circumstances where Jesus created wine how can it be said that we should be prohibited from drinking it? In my view the answer is quite simple.
First, it is quite possible that the wine referred to is not alcoholic (certainly not to the degree of alcoholic content that is common today). Bear in mind that the word translated wine is a generic term that can be applied to either alcoholic or non-alcoholic grape juice.
But the real issue is whether it is conceivable in light of all of the Bible teaching on this issue that Jesus was, in effect, providing the substance to allow the 'party to rage'. Is the message to be drawn from this miracle that we should ignore the evils of alcoholic wine and consider that Jesus has endorsed its 'social' use? I doubt it.
When you read this passage in John 2, it is clear that at the stage when Jesus performed his miracle the people were already ?well drunk' (see the governor's analogy in John 2:10). In circumstances where the people were drinking freely it would be astounding to suggest that Jesus would give them an alcoholic drink and thereby induce a state of drunkenness.
Thus it would be wrong to rely upon this miracle as suggesting that Jesus endorsed 'social' drinking and the potential ills that flow from that.
In our church community we say .00 alcohol. Society as whole would also be better off with such a stipulation. But society cannot handle that. The church can.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~End of Pastor Chris' Response~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Generally, the discussion amongst RF members centered around the theme:

People within the RF don't drink alcohol primarily to not offend or put a stumbling block before unbelievers or weak people within the church; and to be an example and a testimony to unbelievers.

Some key points raised are quoted below:

PHILIPPIANS 1:9-10 (AMP)
9 And this I pray: that your love may abound yet more and more and extend to its fullest development in knowledge and all keen insight [that your love may display itself in greater depth of acquaintance and more comprehensive discernment],
10 So that you may surely learn to sense what is vital, and approve and prize what is excellent and of real value [recognizing the highest and the best, and distinguishing the moral differences], and that you may be untainted and pure and unerring and blameless [so that with hearts sincere and certain and unsullied, you may approach] the day of Christ [not stumbling nor causing others to stumble].

From these two scriptures, our lives as Christian (Christ-following, Christ-like) people should be striving to be:
- untainted
- pure
- unerring
- blameless
- sincere
- certain
- unsullied
- not stumbling
- not offending
- a constant proof
- in contrast to the world
- comprehensive in discernment
- sensible
- morally different from the world
- pleasing to the Lord!

What is the difference between taking a small hit of heroin or smoking a bit of pot "in moderation", and drinking alcohol? Surely these activities do not convey an image of someone who has been transformed by the power of the Holy Spirit. We have dozens upon dozens of testimonies of people who have been healed of a desire for alcohol upon receiving the Holy Spirit, or shortly after.

It is worth noting that the Revival Fellowship would seek to assist someone who struggled with alcohol, only resorting to "discipline", in extreme and rare cases (and only in accordance with the scriptures). We aren't out to "enforce laws" - this is something the Pharisees specialised in. We are here to help people walk in the freedom of Christ.

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Re:ALCOHOL AND THE REVIVAL CENTERS

Date Posted:18/01/2006 5:20 PMCopy HTML

Sorry, dont wont to sound as if i'm preaching just In regards to your statement about the land that God has promised Israel, Genesis 15:18 declares, "To your descendants (Abraham's) I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates." God later confirms this promise to Abraham's son Isaac, and Isaac's son Jacob (whose name was later changed to Israel). When the Israelites were about to invade the promised land, God reiterated the land promise, as recorded in Joshua 1:4, "Your territory will extend from the desert to Lebanon, and from the great river, the Euphrates — all the Hittite country — to the Great Sea on the west."



With Genesis 15:18 and Joshua 1:4 in mind, the land God gave to Israel included everything from the Nile river in Egypt to Lebanon (North to South) and everything from the Mediterranean Sea to the Euphrates River (West to East). So, what land has God stated belongs to Israel? All of the land modern Israel currently possesses, plus all of the land of the Palestinians (the West Bank and Gaza), plus some of Egypt and Syria, plus all of Jordan, plus some of Saudi Arabia and Iraq. Israel currently possesses only a fraction of the land God has promised.



The last Book of the Torah teaches that the Jews are God’s chosen people. “For you are a holy people unto the LORD your God: the LORD your God hath chosen you to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth. The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because you were more in number than any people; for you were the fewest of all people: But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers…” (Deuteronomy 7:6-8).



From all the nations and people on the earth, why exactly did God “choose” the Jews? John Gill, in his “Exposition of the Entire Bible” says the Jews were “chosen for special service and worship, and to enjoy special privileges and benefits, civil and religious; though they were not chosen to special grace…or eternal glory.” The Jews were chosen to be a blessing to all the nations of the earth (Genesis 12). The Jews were chosen to be a light to the gentiles. So then, are all Jews “saved” just because they are Jews?



According to many modern rabbinical scholars the Christian concept of salvation from sin has no equal in Judaism. Judaism does not believe that man, by his nature, is evil or sinful and therefore has no need to be “saved” from an eternal damnation. In fact, most Jews today do not believe in a place of eternal punishment or a literal hell. The Hebrew root word for “sin” is chayt, which literally means to “miss the mark.” It is a term commonly used in archery, of one who “misses the mark” of the bulls eye. When a Jew misses the mark, and occasionally falls into the sin of failing to fulfill the laws of God, the belief is that one can obtain forgiveness through prayer, repentance and doing good deeds.



The Book of Leviticus (17:11), the third Book of the Torah, clearly gives the prescription for forgiveness. “For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.” The Temple sacrifice was always the centerpiece for Jewish atonement. Once a year, on the Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur), the Levitical High Priest would enter the Holy of Holies in the Temple and sprinkle the blood of the sacrifice on the Mercy Seat. Through this yearly act, atonement was made for the sins of all Israel, but the Holy Temple was destroyed in 70 AD, and for almost 2000 years Jews have been without a Temple, a sacrifice, and a means of atonement.



The Brit Chadasha (The New Covenant or New Testament) teaches us that the Jewish Messiah, Jesus Christ, came to the “lost sheep of the house of Israel” (Matthew 15:24) precisely at the time preceding the destruction of the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. “But when Messiah arrived as a High Priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more complete Tabernacle, not made with hands, that is, not of this creation; and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered into the Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been made common, sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, how much more shall the blood of Messiah, Who through the eternal Spirit, offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the Living God?” (Hebrews 9:11-14).



The New Testament teaches that all of us, Jews and gentiles, have “missed the mark.” (Romans 3:23) All of us are under the consequences of sin, and “the wages of sin is death.” (Romans 6:23) We are all in need of salvation from our sin; we are all in need of a Savior. The New Testament teaches that Jesus the Messiah is “the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father”, but through Him. (John 14:6) And most importantly, “there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under Heaven given among men by which it is necessary for us to be saved." (Acts 4:12).



For the Jews, Jesus the Messiah has come as High Priest, and through His once-for-all sacrifice for sin offers complete atonement to all people. For there is “no distinction” between Jew and gentile. (Romans 10:12) Yes, the Jews are God’s chosen people, and through them come the Jewish Messiah to bless all the nations of the earth. And it is only through Jesus that Jews can find God’s complete atonement and forgiveness.
A man died and went to heaven. He was met by Jesus and Jesus began to show him around. As they walked they saw some amazing things. Some too beautiful and amazing to describe. Eventually they came to a huge wall and the man heard the sound of music, laughing and what basically sounded like a party coming from behind the wall. Curious, the man asked Jesus what was going on behind the wall. Jesus answered, "Shhhh!!! Not too loud. That"s the GRC. They think they"re the only ones here!!!"
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Re:ALCOHOL AND THE REVIVAL CENTERS

Date Posted:19/01/2006 7:02 AMCopy HTML

You started by quoting an article written by Chis Jose, which commenced with Ephesians 5:14-20. However, verse 18 of that passage specifically prohibits drunkenness, and not the use of alcohol in moderation (a recurring error in Chris' essay).

Drunkeness is a work of the flesh (Galations 5:21) - alcohol is the source.

"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these...drunkenness..." It is in this context that we should understand the direction not to drink alcohol.

Again, the issue remains drunkenness, in contradistinction to moderation.

. People debate as to whether the Bible absolutely prohibits the drinking of alcohol. But there can be absolutely no doubt that the Bible strongly identifies the evils of alcohol.

Only insofar as it is abused through excess, but the Bible gives even greater indication that wine is a blessing from God. So one needs to be very careful as to how one ?picks-and-chooses' verses when trying to prove a point.

To Aaron and the priests - an absolute prohibition: Lev 10:8-10 8And the LORD spake unto Aaron, saying, 9Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations: 10And that ye may put difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean

Aaron and the priests were forbidden wine only when they were officiating in the Tabernacle. They were not forbidden wine in perpetuity. Again a distinction is clearly made, and clearly intended.

Isaiah 28: 7But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment. 8For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean.

The above passage refers once again to drunkenness in opposition to moderation.

To kings - an absolute prohibition:
Proverbs 31 4It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink: 5Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted. 6Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.

We are made kings and priests unto God - Revelation 1:5-6.

First, Proverbs 31 wasn't understood to present a complete prohibition on the consumption of wine to kings at all. Second, Jesus Christ was both Prophet, (High) Priest and King. He drank wine. Was he guilty of misunderstanding Scripture? Did he sin in doing so? Further, since we too are 'kings and priests', wouldn't we be expected to follow all of the prescriptive commands that befall such people? Do you fellows? Or is it possible that Revelation implies something a little more involved than you guys give it credit for? I wonder ;o)

The evils of alcoholic drink identified:
Proverbs 20:1 "Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise."

Proverbs 23 29Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes? 30 They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine. 31Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. 32At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder. 33Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things. 34Yea, thou shalt be as he that lieth down in the midst of the sea, or as he that lieth upon the top of a mast. 35They have stricken me, shalt thou say, and I was not sick; they have beaten me, and I felt it not: when shall I awake? I will seek it yet again.

All this is perfectly true. Wine does present as too great a temptation for some to exercise in moderation. But anything taken to excess can have the same effect: food, exercise, coffee...

Jesus' clear warning:
Luke 21 (AMP) 34But take heed to yourselves and be on your guard, lest your hearts be overburdened and depressed (weighed down) with the giddiness and headache and nausea of self-indulgence, drunkenness, and worldly worries and cares pertaining to [the business of] this life, and [lest] that day come upon you suddenly like a trap or a noose;

There's a recurring theme to all of these Bible passages (including the ones I've ?snipped', and that is drunkenness.

Overall, therefore we are given ample guidance and instruction about something (wine and its excesses) that is inherently evil, ungodly and not 'expedient' for us. The logical conclusion to be drawn from all of that is that we ought not to partake of it, indeed that it is sinful to do so.

Nonsense. Chris has made the blunder of failing to differentiate between the excessive consumption of wine (which is strongly condemned throughout Scripture), and the moderate consumption of wine (which is not).

The case is strong, wine with its inherent excesses, is not good for us physically and spiritually. As such it should be avoided and not be part of our life.

Again, nonsense. There is nothing inherently ?excessive' about wine at all. The issue is one of a lack of personal responsibility and self-control in its use and application.

But people strongly argue against total abstinence. They say that it is not wine that is evil but only when it is drunk in excess. So moderation is ok, they say. But that really misses the point and errs in many ways to entice us to see how far we can go. It assumes control when control is so often not possible. It assumes virtue when there is none. It seeks to blend the clear spiritual instruction (i.e. leave it alone) with the accepted social norms.

Remarkable. Do you guys recall that a fruit of the Spirit is self-control. I would also remind you that Scripture clearly presents wine as being a ?gift from God', one to be used and enjoyed in moderation, just as is true of the use of all his gifts.

It is bad principle to try to identify how much of a bad thing is ok in order to try and be more accommodating to social customs. We should not dabble with evil, the social custom should give way to the Bible instruction.

The Bible nowhere prohibits the moderate use of alcohol, only its abuse through excess. Chris hasn't presented a single Bible passage that supports his contention that complete abstinence is the biblical command. All he has done is demonstrate that he can't differentiate between 'drunkenness' and 'moderation'. Now try this small exercise: delete ?wine' and insert ?coffee'.

There is but one example in the scripture where some virtue is identified for wine where Paul instructs Timothy to do something about his sickness that would appear to have been connected with bad water. He says in 1 Timothy 5:23 that Timothy should stop drinking the water and use wine so as to avoid the risk. It is possible that he is referring to new wine, i.e. unfermented grape juice. But even if he is not, this verse provides no basis to suggest that we should therefore ignore all of the other clear direction as to the evils of wine and use this as a basis to partake of social drinking (let alone drunkenness).

Just the one positive example? We must be reading different Bibles if that's the case! Anyway, ?new wine' (oinos neos) was fermented. The term actually refers to the wine produced from the most recent harvest, in distinction to ?old wine' which was from the harvest before. But it was still wine. There was a perfectly acceptable Greek word to describe the freshly expressed juice of the grape--moustos. But it was never used. Funny that, eh?

Finally, it is important to note that Jesus did perform the miracle of converting the water into wine at the wedding feast at Canaan (John 2:1-10). The question is, in circumstances where Jesus created wine how can it be said that we should be prohibited from drinking it? In my view the answer is quite simple.

First, it is quite possible that the wine referred to is not alcoholic (certainly not to the degree of alcoholic content that is common today). Bear in mind that the word translated wine is a generic term that can be applied to either alcoholic or non-alcoholic grape juice.

But the real issue is whether it is conceivable in light of all of the Bible teaching on this issue that Jesus was, in effect, providing the substance to allow the 'party to rage'. Is the message to be drawn from this miracle that we should ignore the evils of alcoholic wine and consider that Jesus has endorsed its 'social' use? I doubt it.

When you read this passage in John 2, it is clear that at the stage when Jesus performed his miracle the people were already ?well drunk' (see the governor's analogy in John 2:10). In circumstances where the people were drinking freely it would be astounding to suggest that Jesus would give them an alcoholic drink and thereby induce a state of drunkenness.

Thus it would be wrong to rely upon this miracle as suggesting that Jesus endorsed 'social' drinking and the potential ills that flow from that.

In our church community we say .00 alcohol. Society as whole would also be better off with such a stipulation. But society cannot handle that. The church can.

What I note in Chris' comments on the wedding at Cana above, is nothing more than tendentious supposition and assumption. And it isn't based on what the text states, but on RF philosophy. Instead of drawing his theology from the Bible text, Chris has read his theology into the same. That's bad (

Generally, the discussion amongst RF members centered around the theme:

People within the RF don't drink alcohol primarily to not offend or put a stumbling block before unbelievers or weak people within the church; and to be an example and a testimony to unbelievers.

An admirable and virtuous approach to be sure. But to take it to the stage where one says that to drink wine is to sin (as Chris Jose did above), is to go well beyond the bounds of Scripture, and to fall into human legalism. The Bible clearly teaches that one is to choose for oneself when to partake or abstain. Your fellowship's leaders have arrogated that personal right and responsibility, and have made it into a corporate ?rule'. That, my friends, is legalism.

What is the difference between taking a small hit of heroin or smoking a bit of pot "in moderation", and drinking alcohol? Surely these activities do not convey an image of someone who has been transformed by the power of the Holy Spirit. We have dozens upon dozens of testimonies of people who have been healed of a desire for alcohol upon receiving the Holy Spirit, or shortly after.

So what is the difference between banning alcohol due to its addictive qualities, and allowing the excessive use of coffee (which can be just as addictive)? One claims not to pander to societal norms with the one, but falls down headlong when it comes to the other. Isn't that hypocrisy?

It is worth noting that the Revival Fellowship would seek to assist someone who struggled with alcohol, only resorting to "discipline", in extreme and rare cases (and only in accordance with the scriptures). We aren't out to "enforce laws" - this is something the Pharisees specialised in. We are here to help people walk in the freedom of Christ.

The ?freedom of Christ' that you laud includes the freedom to choose for oneself according to the guide of Scripture and the dictates of one's own conscience. When it comes to the subject of alcohol, you fellows fail on both counts.

God bless,

Ian
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Re:ALCOHOL AND THE REVIVAL CENTERS

Date Posted:02/11/2006 11:42 AMCopy HTML

$%*'`[who would jesus do?]%*'`@Top Evangelist Rev. Ted Haggard Resigns Amid Allegations of Gay Affair

Thursday, November 02, 2006

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COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. ? The Rev. Ted Haggard resigned as president of the 30 million-member National Association of Evangelicals on Thursday after being accused of paying a man for sex in monthly trysts over the past three years.

Haggard ? an outspoken opponent of the drive for gay marriage ? also stepped down as senior pastor at his 14,000-member New Life Church pending an investigation by a church panel, saying he could "not continue to minister under the cloud created by the accusations."

"I am voluntarily stepping aside from leadership so that the overseer process can be allowed to proceed with integrity," Haggard said in a written statement. "I hope to be able to discuss this matter in more detail at a later date. In the interim, I will seek both spiritual advice and guidance."

Haggard, a married father of five, denied the allegations in an interview with KUSA-TV late Wednesday: "Never had a gay relationship with anybody, and I'm steady with my wife, I'm faithful to my wife."

The allegations came as voters in Colorado and seven other states prepare to decide ban-gay-marriage amendments next Tuesday. Besides the proposed ban on the Colorado ballot, a separate measure would establish the legality of domestic partnerships providing same-sex couples with many of the rights of married couples.
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Mike Jones, 49, of Denver told the AP he decided to go public with his allegations because of the political fight.

"I just want people to step back and take a look and say, 'Look, we're all sinners, we all have faults, but if two people want to get married, just let them, and let them have a happy life,"' said Jones, who added that he isn't actively working for any political group.

Jones, who said he is gay, said he was also upset when he discovered Haggard and the New Life Church had publicly opposed same-sex marriage.

"It made me angry that here's someone preaching about gay marriage and going behind the scenes having gay sex," Jones said.

Jones, whose allegations were first aired on KHOW-AM radio in Denver, claimed Haggard paid him to have sex nearly every month over three years. He said he advertised himself as an escort on the Internet and was contacted by a man who called himself Art.

Jones said he later saw the man on television identified as Haggard. He said he last had sex with Haggard in August and did not warn him before making his allegations public this week.

Jones said he has voice mails from Haggard as well as an envelope he said Haggard used to mail him cash. He declined to make any of it available to the AP.

"There's some stuff on there (the voice mails) that's pretty damning," he said.

Haggard, a 1978 graduate of Oral Roberts University, was appointed president of the association in March 2003 and has been called one of the most influential evangelical Christians in the nation. He has participated in conservative Christian leaders' conference calls with White House staffers and lobbied members of Congress last year on U.S. Supreme Court appointees after Sandra Day O'Connor announced her retirement.

Richard Cizik, vice president for government affairs for the evangelicals' association, expressed shock.

"Is this something I can imagine of Ted Haggard? No," he said.

Carolyn Haggard, spokeswoman for the New Life Church and the pastor's niece, said a four-member church panel will investigate the allegations.

The board is comprised of the Rev. Larry Stockstill in Baker, La., the Rev. Mark Cowart of Colorado Springs, the Rev. Tim Ralph of Larkspur and the Rev. Michael Ware of Westminster. The board has the authority of to discipline Haggard, including removing him from ministry work.

"This is really routine when any sort of situation like this arises, so we're prepared," Carolyn Haggard said. "The church is going to continue to serve and be welcoming to our community. That's a priority."
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Re:ALCOHOL AND THE REVIVAL CENTERS

Date Posted:09/11/2006 12:33 PMCopy HTML

$%*'`[oh my GOD!!!]%*'`@Woman fatally bitten by snake in church
Woman fatally bitten by snake in church
Neighbors say Kentucky congregation practices serpent-handling


| What's this?
. Woman Dies After Allegedly Being Bitten By A Snake During Church Service
. Woman dies next to her own grave
. Fan hurt by falling concrete at Dolphin Stadium
Updated: 10:59 p.m. PT Nov 7, 2006

LONDON, Ky. - A woman who was bitten by a snake at a church that neighbors say practices serpent-handling died of her wounds hours later, a newspaper reported.

Linda Long, 48, was bitten Sunday at East London Holiness Church, where neighbors said the reptiles are handled as part of religious services, The Lexington Herald-Leader reported Tuesday.

Long died at University of Kentucky Medical Center about four hours after being bitten, authorities told the newspaper.
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"She said she was bitten by a snake at her church," said Lt. Ed Sizemore of the Laurel County Sheriff's Office.

Handling reptiles as part of religious services is illegal in Kentucky. Snake handling is a misdemeanor and punishable by a $50 to $100 fine.

Police said they had not received any reports of snake handling at the church.

Snake handling is based on a passage in the Bible that says a sign of a true believer is the power to "take up serpents" without being harmed.

Church officials could not be reached for comment.
?2006 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed
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Re:ALCOHOL AND THE REVIVAL CENTERS

Date Posted:24/11/2006 8:08 AMCopy HTML

Alcohol and the Revival Centres  (click for link)

Revival Centre people who drink any alcohol can be disfellowshiped. Those who teach that Christians can drink in moderation are ridiculed at Revival Centre meetings. I'll just quote something from the Revival Centre 'Drink Drink Drink' pamphlet. Apart from some dreadful translation of Greek, it concludes with Lloyd Longfield saying, "Beware and be warned, drinking intoxicating liquor is O-U-T Pentecost take note!" How would Jesus have reacted? Would they have ridiculed Jesus? Did Jesus drink?

Despite what Revival Centres might say, there is nothing inherently wrong with alcohol. Melchizedek served wine to Abraham. The priests in Israel were allowed to drink wine, except when serving in the tabernacle or temple. It was used during the religious feasts, with God's approval, and was gratefully accepted as a divine provision (Genesis 14:18; Leviticus 10:9; Psalm 104:14, 15). Jesus' first miracle was to turn water into wine (John 2:1-11).

Yet, first of all, it is clear that drinking any wine, if it would be a stumbling block for someone, is wrong (Romans 14:21). Scripture is also clear that drinking too much wine destroys lives, causes confusion, makes people do unwise things. Being drunk, according to the writer of Proverbs, gives us "woe ... sorrow ... strife ... complaining ... redness of eye ... Your eyes will see strange things, and your mind utter perverse things" (Proverbs 23:29-33). Jesus wisely showed that this drunkenness was unbecoming a Christian (Luke 21:34), who was to be the light of the world. Wine in excess is definitely harmful. However, even honey, when eaten in excess, is bad (Proverbs 25:27). What do the Revival Centres say of exercising self-control when drinking alcohol? Did Jesus completely abstain from alcohol?

A Revival Centre 'pastor' would be correct in saying that there are no explicit references to Jesus drinking alcohol in Scripture (except as a type of 'sedative' on the cross - John 19:30). Matthew 11:19 may suggest that he drank, but the verse is disputable. We can be certain, though, that Jesus drank. At the so-called 'last supper', we are told that Jesus drank of the "fruit of the vine" (Gk. "genematos tes ampeloy") - Mark 14:25. A Revival Centre leader would be correct in saying that, literally, "fruit of the vine" could mean unfermented grape juice (this is what they say). However, from the context, fermented grape juice - wine - is the only possibility.

We know that Jesus' last supper was the Passover meal (Mark 14:14-17). Jewish tradition was to drink wine, not grape juice, at the Passover. One writer has said, "Oral tradition contained in the Mishnah commanded that even the poorest person must drink the minimum four cups, even if he had to sell himself to do labour or had to borrow money in order to buy the wine" ( Rosen, C. and M. Christ in the Passover. 1978. Page 51).

"Because the last supper was on Passover, at Nisan 14 (April), seven months had elapsed since the harvest of the vine... any grape juice in Palestine would be well fermented"

But there is more than tradition. The "fruit of the vine" could not have been grape juice because of time considerations. The Palestine grape harvest begins in the Jewish month of Elul (August-September). The harvest is over before Tishri 15-21 (September-October), the Festival of Booths - Deuteronomy 16:13. Because the last supper was on Passover, at Nisan 14 (April), seven months had elapsed since the harvest of the vine. Long before the last supper, any grape juice in Palestine would be well fermented. So, when Jesus drank the "fruit of the vine" at the last supper, we can be sure that he could only have been drinking wine. That is why, when the Corinthians re-enacted the supper, some of them could get drunk (1Corinthians 11:21). Do the Revival Centres say that Jesus sinned by drinking wine?

Of course Jesus didn't sin. He drank in moderation. The key is in moderation, as it is with all things. At 1 Timothy 3:2, 3, we read that an overseer should be "temperate" [some versions put as 'moderate']. That means in all habits. Likewise, the older men and women are given similar counsel to be "temperate" (Titus 2:2; 1 Timothy 3:11). The key is temperence (Gk. Sophron). The Greek comes from sozo ('to save') and phren ('the mind'), in other words don't go too far and blow your mind! So, in disussing the qualifications of the deakonos, Paul says that they should be, "not indulging in much wine" (1 Timothy 3:8). Women are similarly warned not to be "slaves to drink" (Titus 2:3). Those words imply that drinking some wine is acceptable. But the warning is this - don't go too far with your drinking!

The Revival Centres have actually set up a string of arguments to show why Christians shouldn't drink. When one is knocked down, they will quickly jump to another one. Then, when beaten, as was recently done in the Newsgroups, simply exclaim that they have proved the point from the Scriptures and we are 'liars'!

Here are a few of their arguments. Firstly, they say that, because the Levitical priests did not drink (Leviticus 10:8), then Christians, who according to Revivalist John Kuhlmann are 'always in the Holy Place', should also not drink. But the Levites were also bare-footed (Exodus 28:1-43) and wore turbans (Leviticus 8:13)! Do Christians have to follow them there, too?

Following from this is a rather devious and deceptive argument. Most Revival Centre people don't know Greek, and so Revivalists in the past have redefined Greek words to try and show that either 'wine' really means 'grape juice' (Drink Drink Drink pamphlet), or that 'to be drunk' really means to have drunk any wine. According to Longfield, someone is a 'drunkard', Methusos (as in 1Cor.5:11), after they have drunk any alcohol. However, that is not what the Greek word means. Plato uses the same word to describe being reduced to a state of 'childish helplessness' (Rep.., III, 325). So, Methusos really does mean 'to be drunk', and this is what the Scriptures counsel against.

A final argument from a leader usually goes along the lines of, "well, we don't allow any drinking, just in case someone gets drunk". What little faith they have in members of their group! Not allowing them to drink anything in case they go to far and get drunk (very black / white cult thinking involved). Yet, we could use the same argument and say, we better not eat anything, in case someone becomes gluttonous!

"do not let anyone condemn you in matters of food and drink ... All these regulations refer to things that perish with use; they are simply human commands and teachings"

The real basis for the rule is just another Revival Centre human teaching. The apostle Paul warned of legalism in the churches: "do not let anyone condemn you in matters of food and drink ... Why do you submit to regulations, 'Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch'? All these regulations refer to things that perish with use; they are simply human commands and teachings. These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting self-imposed piety, humility, and severe treatment of the body, but they are of NO VALUE in checking self-indulgence" (Colossians 2:16, 20-23).

In other articles, we have considered how the Revival Centres trample the blood of Jesus. The 'gospel of Christ' is replaced by a gospel of tongues. The system of church government set up by Christ, where no one would be 'lord over another' has been trampled. The freedom in Christ has been changed to petty rules regarding food and drink. What Jesus himself did (drink alcohol) is criticised! We can be sure that if Jesus went to a Revival Centre, he would have been severely rebuked by his Revival Centre oversight for drinking wine. If he continued drinking, perhaps he would have been disfellowshiped!

Let's face it, most Revival Centre / Fellowship people know this drinking rule is unscriptural - drinking in private. Do they question the rule? No, it is wrong to question the rules, no matter how crazy! One thing we want you, the reader, to do after considering this article is to go through it with your 'pastor'. If no one questions the rules, the Revival Centres will continue being a cult and their leaders will never come to repentance.

?1997, Nick Greer This email address is being protected from spam bots, you need Javascript enabled to view it . P.O. Box 494, Glenside, South Australia, 5065. All rights reserved. Feel free to copy and distribute any information on this page as you like, but please don't try to sell it without my permission. Unless otherwise indicated, the Scripture quotations contained herein are from the New Revised Standard Version Bible, Copyright 1989, by the Division of Christian Education of the National Council of the Churches of Christ in the U.S.A. Used by permission. All rights reserved.


 

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