miracles !!!!!! relevent and still around

Title: miracles !!!!!! relevent and still around
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Date Posted：04/05/2008 5:45 AMCopy HTML

Just thought I would throw this one in for discussion.

Miracles, healings !!!

Do you believe in them still???

have you experienced any????

Im sure Moth and Dog would say no, however I could be wrong.........

Please no emotive comments.

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Re：miracles !!!!!! relevent and still around

Date Posted：04/05/2008 6:29 AMCopy HTML

Funnily enough, today's meeting (at Edge church) was all about rembering all of the miracles God has done in your life, and when i started remembering the things God had done for me I fell to my knees in tears of love and grattitude that Jesus has done so much for me. 

Tonight's meeting will be a short sermon and prayer for any sick or anyone with needs for most of the meeting, as well as testimonies of what God has done. I'm really looking forward to seeing some amazing breakthroughs. 

I couldn't even list all of the things God has done for me on here, but i've seen instant miraculous occurances, i've prayed for things as trivial as headaches and viruses and had them dissapear instantly, i've experienced God heal me of depression and a desire to end my life, God's restored my marriage (from the mess that Revival caused) he's healed my sister of cancer, he's healed my friends sister of cancer (just recently) completely and even gave me a word of knowledge that she would be completely all clear (which she is). I could go on and on and on if i started to remember everything i've seen and received from our wonderful loving God and Saviour Jesus Christ. 

The biggest miracle of all is seeing people set free from the chains of this world and coming to know him and have a personal relationship with the God of Heaven and Earth.

Your unfailing love, O Lord, is as vast as the heavens; your faithfulness reaches beyond the clouds. Your righteousness is like the mighty mountains, your justice like the ocean depths.

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Re：miracles !!!!!! relevent and still around

Date Posted：04/05/2008 6:31 AMCopy HTML

oops, that was from Set Free, not Sea Urchin

:-s

Your unfailing love, O Lord, is as vast as the heavens; your faithfulness reaches beyond the clouds. Your righteousness is like the mighty mountains, your justice like the ocean depths.

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Re：miracles !!!!!! relevent and still around

Date Posted：04/05/2008 9:53 AMCopy HTML

Do you believe in them still??? have you experienced any????

I think the word 'miracle' is another interpretive word, but Ian can enlighten us to the proper semantics, perhaps - heh. When it comes to the following law then I certainly believe in them and have experienced some bloody doozies. The probability of certain things happening are sometimes millions to one, but a myriad of improbable things probably and do happen all the time. They may seem miraculous in a supernatural way, but are simply math.

Littlewood's law states that individuals can expect miracles to happen to them, at the rate of about one per month. By its definition, seemingly miraculous events are actually commonplace. In other words, miracles do not exist, but are rather examples of low probability events that are bound to happen by chance from time to time.

Polkinghorne suggest that miracles are not violations of the laws of nature but "exploration of a new regime of physical experience".

Theologico-Political Treatise he talks about miracles as those events of whose causes we are ignorant. 

Im sure Moth and Dog would say no, however I could be wrong.........

You're sure you could be wrong? If you're saying a miracle is "a transgression of a law of nature by a particular volition of the Deity, or by the interposition of some invisible agent", then I'd have to say I've never seen any tangible evidence during my time and place on the planet. I acknowledge that many many people profess to having experienced unexplainable supernatural phenomena, but without wanting to discredit people, for all I know, these stories are the products of misperception, ignorance, attention seeking, outright untruthfulness or mental disorder.

I've seen and have experienced 'amazing' things, but that's different, eh? God given miracles though? I'm always interested to hear stories, and would love to hear the story of an ex-amputee, but would need proof to go with it.

Please no emotive comments.

No emotions at all allowed in the replies? I'll keep it stoic.

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Re：miracles !!!!!! relevent and still around

Date Posted：04/05/2008 1:54 PMCopy HTML

Reply to brolga (04/05/2008 07:39:03)

I have found over the years, whether it is to do with sickness, operations or whatever, having faith and looking to Jesus to bring one through whatever, the end result is always in the positive. We may not class them as miracles as such, but it is the timing of it all, we pray, it happens. 

I no longer look for "miracles," just offer up thanksgiving, and it seems to work every time.
  
brolga

"Always" in the positive? "Every" time?

Hmm, this is what I was referring to when people misconstrue events to be miraculous. The only way this would be a true statement is if 'every' time you prayed for someone, a healing occurred outside the bounds of natural healing. Of course, unless the prayee died, then it would work in some time, but even if the subject died after a while you could always put a positive 'spin' on it as 'part of the plan'... ergo, prayers are always answered.

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Re：miracles !!!!!! relevent and still around

Date Posted：04/05/2008 2:54 PMCopy HTML

Yes, so far everytime. Some might, but I don't consider that as a "miracle,"  I think it is dangerous to believe it more than the natural. What part does the mind itself play in the healing recovery of the body, mankind hasn't scratched the surface in discovering what power lies there and I don't believe we ever will. 
There is wisdom and knowledge in the bible that needs to be acknowledged, such as the saying, "A merry heart doeth good like a medicine." (Proverbs 17:32)
I read somewhere that medical science has found out that laughter causes certain hormones to produce chemicals that increases the immune system and helps fight off sickness and disease.  We find that stresses of life have an adverse effect on our health. Why bust your guts to have such material gain when you can be more healthy and happy with less to do, afterall you can't take it with you when you die. .
So the bottom line is, live for your needs not for your wants and give thanks always to God. 
It is all about attitude, hey.

brolga
 

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Re：miracles !!!!!! relevent and still around

Date Posted：04/05/2008 11:06 PMCopy HTML

'morning. Mothra.

A basic definition of 'miracle', one that I prefer even though it can be quite loose theologically (and I won't bore you with a long-winded theological definition), is this: the immediate activity of God as distinct from the mediate activity of God. 

Anyway...

Miracles are not commonplace and were never intended to be, and that in spite of the claims of some within the Pente camp. Further, neither should healings to be equated with miracles, although healings are, in some sense, miraculous. Speaking from personal experience I've not yet witnessed a biblical 'miracle', although I have experienced several things which might best be defined as 'miraculous', and which were clearly the immediate activity of God, as distinct from his mediate activity. Note the semantic dichotomy? 

Blessings,

Ian

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Just wondering... is it a miracle when someone lives that should have died?  When someone is told that they cannot have children and they do?  Or are they not miracles at all? Are they healings and therefore NOT miracles?  Or am I just a 'loopy Pente' Ian? (I know you just love that phrase)  Just wondering..

Urch

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Re：miracles !!!!!! relevent and still around

Date Posted：05/05/2008 10:11 AMCopy HTML

Just wondering... is it a miracle when someone lives that should have died?  When someone is told that they cannot have children and they do? 

Flawed doctor's diagnosis perhaps?

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Re：miracles !!!!!! relevent and still around

Date Posted：05/05/2008 11:07 AMCopy HTML

 Moth or just maybe a miracle...........

As christians and in particular in mine and urchins case as pentecostal christians it would be amiss for us to not believe in miracles, you see that is part of who we are and if we didnt believe this we would hypocritical.

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Date Posted：05/05/2008 12:40 PMCopy HTML

Moth or just maybe a miracle...........

'maybe' is the critical word. Maybe, maybe not. It's all in the eye of the beholder and influenced by what you 'want' to believe and what your peers believe and want you to believe, maybe. Doctors make mistakes all the time and to be pregnant, even though a doctor said otherwise, does not necessarily a miracle make.

As christians and in particular in mine and urchins case as pentecostal christians it would be amiss for us to not believe in miracles, you see that is part of who we are and if we didnt believe this we would hypocritical.

... or realistic. But naturally, all that goes without saying. I was a believer in 'miracles' for over 30 years, and I'm not arguing over what you or Urchin should or shouldn't believe. I'm just promoting critical thinking and realism.

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Re：miracles !!!!!! relevent and still around

Date Posted：05/05/2008 1:03 PMCopy HTML

Something happened when my daughter was born. Too gruesome for detail. 

Have been told that her survival and her mental acuity are due entirely to a miracle, but athough I WANT to believe that it was a true miracle, as with anything that happens when the medical profession is involved there is room for "critical thinking and realism".

When you leave a place like the GRC ALL your beliefs and the very foundations of your belief SYSTEM is shaken and on reflection, I can't say that I have been aware of a miracle occuring that couldn't have been explained in some way.

One lady in the GRC did however have her story written up in the local paper with the medical profession of the day saying that her recovery was a miracle.

Given the need to pray for a miracle to happen, I would still have FAITH that it would occur. 

Scepticism, mixed with blind faith, seems to be the order of the day now.

Cheers,
Glad

"Faith is not about everything turning out OK; Faith is about being OK no matter how things turn out."

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Re：miracles !!!!!! relevent and still around

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Its all about perception and preconception, people!

There would appear to be all sorts of miracles occurring on a daily basis, if we have eyes to see them. Yet yes, rarely is there one that couldn't be answered away or discounted by critical analysis.  Last I heard, the sceptic society still haven't found anyone to give a $mill to!

The biggest issue here is what I might describe as 'this = that' thinking.  That is, people who have embraced one of many 'belief systems' tend to develop a mindset whereby they attribute all & any event as some kind of confirmation of their beliefs.  Its all cognitive! It can be uncanny how good we can be at convincing ourselves of just about anything, as far fetched as it may be.  There are apparently otherwise intelligent people that have talked to dead people, been abducted by aliens, and had all sorts of miracles happen due to some divine being casting selective favour upon them, because they are faithful.

I'm quite aware that I am just as capable as anyone else at this form of self delusion, and kind of guard myself from any attachment to any fixed set of beliefs (yet at the same time, I entertain myself with romantic notions of strange possibilities).

A strange paradox exists therefor, that whilst I can see precious little true divine miracles & interventions occurring, those who acknowledge the fact, still maintain belief that they used to occur 'once upon a time'!  Ian's assertion that these events are rare and never were meant to be commonplace is pretty odd (if not preposterous)!  The Bible is riddled with accounts of amazing magnitude for all to see.  Many scriptures (that the pentes hang their hats on) are explicit in saying such powers are the nature of the christian God.  I can't see how any amount of theologising can explain that away.  It (to me) makes the whole thing  pretty unbelievable!

My way of thinking is, we must look at what we know to be true from our own experience (critical thinking) in terms of physics, life and such.  From this standpoint, we can evaluate possibilities of other realities. If it holds true today, it probably held true historically.  For christians to believe in a once demonstrably powerful but presently passive god is nonsensical!  Yet, for those that would believe emphatically in the bible, and its miraculous accounts, the god should be a helluvalot more active than he most evidently is NOT. Really, after many years being amidst thousands of 'believers' we all should slap ourselves in the face and realise that the millions of testimonies about a god pulling strings on your behalf are little more than wishful thinking, and self delusion.  And all along, others with quite different beliefs are equally deluded in adhering to their own set of beliefs.  Dogma (christian, muslim, whatever) is a dangerous and deceptive disease!

E5, Emotive or not, that is my response!

Dog.

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Re：miracles !!!!!! relevent and still around

Date Posted：05/05/2008 11:38 PMCopy HTML

Good morning, Dog.

A strange paradox exists therefor, that whilst I can see precious little true divine miracles & interventions occurring, those who acknowledge the fact, still maintain belief that they used to occur 'once upon a time'!  Ian's assertion that these events are rare and never were meant to be commonplace is pretty odd (if not preposterous)!  The Bible is riddled with accounts of amazing magnitude for all to see.  Many scriptures (that the pentes hang their hats on) are explicit in saying such powers are the nature of the christian God.  I can't see how any amount of theologising can explain that away.  It (to me) makes the whole thing  pretty unbelievable!

I think you may need to wrap your head around the issue of context, big fella  For instance you will find that miracles in the Old Testament were centred around the immediate activity of God at work within the context of his covenant relationship with Israel, and then mostly during the period surrounding the Exodus (as mediated through Moses). One doesn't read of anywhere near the same concentration of miracles throughout the remainder of that testament (although they do occur). Now fast-forward a little. Most of the miracles in the New Testament were centred around the immediate activity of God at work within the context of his covenant relationship with New Israel, and then mostly during the period recorded by the Gospels (as mediated through Jesus Christ). Again, one doesn't read of anywhere near the same concentration of miracles in the remainder of that testament (although, again, they do occur).

Get the picture yet? 

Blessings,

Ian

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Re：miracles !!!!!! relevent and still around

Date Posted：06/05/2008 12:21 AMCopy HTML

 Concentration............ more at certain times, less at other times.....SO WHAT!!!

Doesn't change that there are all those biblical stories of those times, yet today we see an entirely different reality (yet the pentes continue clutching at straws to try and pretend it is now as it was supposedly then).

Neither does it change that there are many bible scriptures than DO suggest a continuing miraculous and active god (that has failed to manifest since man invented the ability to record history by video etc.

They are stories in a book.  Just like Dumbo the flying elephant, Peter Pan, and Gandalph.

Get real people!

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Re：miracles !!!!!! relevent and still around

Date Posted：06/05/2008 12:42 AMCopy HTML

Guest,

I'm going to attempt to be rather charitable for moment, and presume that you're not quite as silly as your response, below, would indicate. Therefore I'm going to assume that you simply haven't thought the matter through, adequately. Okay? 

Concentration............ more at certain times, less at other times.....SO WHAT!!!

C-O-N-T-E-X-T. Think about it. And further, try reflecting on the ramifications that invariably result.

Doesn't change that there are all those biblical stories of those times, yet today we see an entirely different reality (yet the pentes continue clutching at straws to try and pretend it is now as it was supposedly then).

C-O-N-T-E-X-T. Consider: what is the principle difference between the events of those times, and the events of today? What is different (a hint though, it has nothing to do with the invention of Sony Handicams) 

Neither does it change that there are many bible scriptures than DO suggest a continuing miraculous and active god (that has failed to manifest since man invented the ability to record history by video etc.

As I pointed out previously, God is active in both mediate (the more 'common') and immediate (the less 'common') senses. You've clearly failed to distinguish the reasons why he was active in the latter sense, during certain (very specific) phases of salvation history. However, being the positive kind of guy that I am, I reckon a little directed concentration on your part will provide you with one or two possible answers 

They are stories in a book.   Just like Dumbo the flying elephant, Peter Pan, and Gandalph.

I'm sure they are 

Blessings,

Ian

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Re：miracles !!!!!! relevent and still around

Date Posted：06/05/2008 12:51 AMCopy HTML

As christians and in particular in mine and urchins case as pentecostal christians it would be amiss for us to not believe in miracles, you see that is part of who we are and if we didnt believe this we would hypocritical.
                  _________________________________________________________________________

E5 -  I don't know why it would be 'hypocritical' to not believe in miracles ?  The reason that I do is because I HAVE experienced them. Also I don't 'identify' myself as a 'pentecostal christian' - I am a CHRISTIAN full stop.
It's like saying "I'm a Methodist christian or a Baptist christian" - if you get what I mean. 

Ian - whether we call them miracles or healings or provisions or whatever is not relevant.  I personally believe (and have not seen anything in scripture to the contrary) that God IS alive and DOES work in and through people's lives today. He is just as relevant to us today as He was to (eg) Moses or to Peter. Further, scripture is just as relevant to us today as it was when it was written.

All - if anyone wants to hear about one of the miracles I HAVE experienced, read on:

My beautiful 23 year old daughter is a living miracle - I was told that I couldn't have more children after my first child and yet 11 years later (and within a couple weeks of praying about it) I fell pregnant. I fully acknowledge that to some people this may not seem like a miracle or a healing at all and that is their choice to mock/disbelieve etc. 
It doesn't make it any less real to me because others don't believe it! I KNOW that God heard our prayer (if you met my daughter you would understand). She has grown and matured into an awesome young woman of God - in spite of 22 years of RF/RC influence and their usual lack of encouragement throughout her entire life. 

What is a miracle to me may not seem like a miracle to others - but it isn't any less a miracle, if you get what I mean!

Urchin

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Re：miracles !!!!!! relevent and still around

Date Posted：06/05/2008 1:02 AMCopy HTML

Good morning, Urch.

I'll preface my comments by pointing out that there are two principle forms of theologising that Christians can, and do, engage in. The most common is "folk theology". The least common is biblical theology. One is rigorously scriptural, the other usually isn't.

E5 -  I don't know why it would be 'hypocritical' to not believe in miracles ?  The reason that I do is because I HAVE experienced them. Also I don't 'identify' myself as a  'pentecostal christian' - I am a CHRISTIAN full stop.
It's like saying "I'm a Methodist christian or a Baptist christian"  - if  you get what I mean.  

Actually, to be Pentecostal is to believe, accept, and promote a specific set of "core" beliefs. Whether you care to accept the adjective or not, you are a Pentecostal Christian.

Ian - whether we call them miracles or healings or provisions or whatever is not relevant.    I personally believe (and have not  seen anything in scripture to the contrary) that God  IS alive and  DOES work in and through people's lives today. He is just as relevant to us today as He was to (eg) Moses or to Peter.  Further,  scripture is just as relevant to us today as it was when it was written.

Folk theology. The distinction between "miracle" and "healing" is crucially relevant from a theological standpoint. Now, who is it that has suggested: (1) that God isn't alive or working through (and in) people's lives today; (2) that he is somehow less relevant today then he was in ages past; and (3) that Scripture is somehow less relevant today that it was previously? I ask these questions because, to be frank (hi Frank), you seem to imply that such represents my position! If so, how did you come to such a bizzarre conclusion?

All - if anyone wants to hear about one of the miracles I HAVE experienced, read on:

What is a miracle to me may not seem like a miracle to others - but it isn't any less a miracle, if you get what I mean!

Folk theology, and remarkably subjective reasoning to say the very least!

Blessings,

Ian

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Yes, I think miracles are still around.
In Revival churches it seems almost routine to substantiate the receiving of the Holy Spirit/tongues with the signs (following) of healing and protection.  "I prayed about it and was healed"  In many testimonies God seems to be in the business of healing backs, colds and headaches.  Many depressed people in Revival churches though seem to battle along independently as the church will shy away from this complaint and they don't like it mentioned in testimonies.  I, therefore, had become skeptical of their approach to healing and testimonies of healing.  A later incident turned my skepticism into belief.

I believe modern medicine is a God given miracle of healing.  There are, however, times when doctors have to concede that all in their power has been done, there is no more they can do, and have been confounded by the miraculous.

A young man was in hospital suffering a stroke and organ failure due to many years of drug abuse and was not expected to last the night.  A young (and considered inexperienced) RF pastor of a small assembly sat through the night with him praying fervently for his recovery.  The young man was given his life back on that night seven years ago.  I don't know full details of what transpired during that night, whether the man was fully conscious all the time, but I know, and am sure, of the absolute sincerity of the pastor.

When I think of this healing the scripture verses in James  (5:14-16)  come to mind.

"Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
And the prayer of faith shall save the sick and the Lord shall raise him up;  and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
Confess your faults one to another that ye may be healed.  The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much." 

Righteous ministers of churches are the ones initially called upon to pray for anoint the sick with oil (or is this symbolic?  I don't know)   Oil is used in many traditional and also Pentecostal churches.  I have heard of one RF church anointing the sick with oil.  Don't know if it still continues as it is not their practice to do this.

I feel there is a scriptural way of going about healing prayer, although it may not always be in God's plan for all sick, who have been sincerely prayed for, to be healed and God calls some home.

Epi

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Re：miracles !!!!!! relevent and still around

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This is not meant to be antagonistic------BUT,

If you exclude healings and anything to do with the realm of Medicine, what type of event would be construed to be a miracle in this day and age? 
Does anyone know of such an event or occurrence?

a GRC example ------ The pastor or some other zealot in Columbia was held up at gunpoint and when the guy pulled the trigger, the gun failed to go off.

They were convinced it was the hand of God and therefore a miracle.
I think that there could be lots of reasons why a weapon wouldn't fire, given the situation and circumstance.

Lastly, are we right to question these events?

Cheers,
Glad

 GRC anoint people with oil when praying for a healing. They have laying on of hands and then I guess for the more "serious" cases we were anointed with oil. Have had prayer for healing, laying on of hands and been anointed with oil on numerous occaisions, expecting a healing.
Apart from the ones which were fixed surgically, I am still waiting.

"Faith is not about everything turning out OK; Faith is about being OK no matter how things turn out."

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Re：miracles !!!!!! relevent and still around

Date Posted：06/05/2008 6:24 AMCopy HTML

 Urchin, i concure with Ian on his point that we are pentecostal christians, we believe in the experience of pentecost both our churches are pentecostal, Like you I am not into labels but that is what we are . 

Thank you for shareing your testimonie re your daughter

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Re：miracles !!!!!! relevent and still around

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If you exclude healings and anything to do with the realm of Medicine, what type of event would be construed to be a miracle in this day and age? Does anyone  know of  such an event or occurrence?

Apart from gold and silver dust appearing? Actually, speaking of parlour trick miracles, do you remember Mike Willesee's infatuation with them a few years ago? His documentary, which I think I've still got on tape somewhere, was viewed by over 30 million Americans and showed stigmata supposedly happening 'live' on film. It did look pretty extraordinary from memory, but then so does David Copperfield's stuff. The show included bleeding and milked statues, amongst other faves such as Mary's face apparitions and the like.

Last Sunday and this sunday there is a Richard Dawkins documentary on the ABC called, "The enemies of Reason". He made a good point about the development of beliefs in miracles and superstitions. He didn't actually say that but inferred it from the segment concerning conditioning and B.F. Skinner's pigeon tests. People developed gambling superstitions just as pigeons developed superstitions about acquiring food pellets that dropped into their cages. One pigeon noticed that sometimes the food pelllet would appear when it looked over its left 'shoulder', when in fact the pellets were dropped randomly. It developed a 'superstition' of looking over its left side to invoke food appearing.

As Christians we would pray for any and every ailment and sing hallay-looya whenever a 'healing' happened to occur. This is like hooting at the Gods whenever a double six is rolled in Monopoly at the exact and most beneficial time. Sometimes in life you will be hoping for a double-six and in all probability, you're eventually sure to roll one.

If you missed Richard Dawkin's show, you can watch it on googleVideo from the following blog. I found the experiments debunking astrology particularly interesting (if only to present you with something that Dawkins is promoting that Christians will agree with also):

http://joshuagough.blogspot.com/2007/09/richard-dawkins-enemies-of-reason.html

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Re：miracles !!!!!! relevent and still around

Date Posted：06/05/2008 10:46 PMCopy HTML

Hi, Epi.

There's something about the way that Revivalists go about their business that I've always found amusing. Well, there are several things actually, but I'll concentrate on just the one for the moment!  Prayer lines. Now the old Revs consider everything that they do to be in complete accord with scriptural teaching. However, where in Scripture do we find any mention of prayer lines? The fact is, such is just another uncritically inherited "Pentecostal-ism". Of course the Revs would like to claim that this is simply their application of the James 5:14 healing service passage. But that passage quite specifically states that the sick are to call for the elders of the church. The Revivalist practice is for the "elders" to call for the sick! So how could anybody honestly claim that "this is that" with a straight face?! 

And to develop this issue a little further: with respect to the James 5 healing service I don't think enough people go on to read the significant "qualifier" to the matter, which is to be found in verse 16. If I might ask something of a rhetorical question: how many times have Revivalist pastors confessed their sins to the people that they intend praying for in the so-called prayer line? Not too many, I'd wager, and so I wonder whether this fact has something to do with the reality of "healing" being a very hit-and-miss occurrence in Revivalist assemblies?

Something to ponder...

Blessings,

Ian

email: didaktikon@gmail.com

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Register：21/09/2018 12:36 AM

Re：miracles !!!!!! relevent and still around

Date Posted：06/05/2008 11:24 PMCopy HTML

 Ian a very good point re sins/prayer/healing, thanks for sharing that, i have read it b4 but is nice to be reminded of it and to ponder on its ramifications.

Re "prayer lines" it appears( to me anyway) that this is a thing created more out of convienence than anything else.

God Bless E5

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Register：29/08/2007 7:54 AM

Re：miracles !!!!!! relevent and still around

Date Posted：07/05/2008 1:08 AMCopy HTML

All,

It's probably appropriate that I introduce a little more information at this point in this particular conversation, in the hope that it 'sparks' further thought and discussion of some far weightier issues.

It is my considered opinion that Pentecostals tend to be very big on their particular brand of "spiritual triumphalism": a miracle here, a healing there, and so forth. One area in which they tend to be somewhat lacking, however, is with respect to serious theological reflection. Consequently, Pentecostal theologising can often be shallow at best, and rather unbalanced at worst. Consider as an example, this: where do Pentecostals 'sit' with respect to a theology of suffering?

Any thoughts?

Blessings,

Ian

email: didaktikon@gmail.com

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From：Australia
Register：21/04/2008 10:04 PM

Re：miracles !!!!!! relevent and still around

Date Posted：07/05/2008 10:04 AMCopy HTML

Hi Epi

I'd like to add to your comments regarding the "I do not sin fallacy" that's believed in some quarters of RF - mainly for the benefit of those RF'rs who don't hold to that fallacy. The many RF'rs who recognise that Christians by virtue of being human *do* sin need to ask themselves why this fallacy persists and has not been dealt with conclusively, at least among all the leadership. 

As far as I'm aware, the question of what is believed regarding this has not been raised among the Council members, despite (proof-texting here) the rather serious point made in 1 Jn 1:8 that "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us."

I invite any RF'rs reading this to correct me if the issue *has* been raised in the Council and all its members do in fact affirm that they do sin.

A final thought for RF'rs, not only does context make a mockery of this teaching, modern translations such as the ESV clearly show how today's readers misinterpret the 17th century language of the KJV when they adopt the "I do not sin" fallacy.

Sorry E5 about going "off-topic", but I figure that highlighting this might cause some RF'rs to reconsider how well their leaders are 'keeping their doctrine pure", without even needing to go down the "tongues" path.

The evidence for Mann-made global warming is unequivocal.

Ex_Member
Rank： Score：0 Posts：0 From：Unknown Register：21/09/2018 12:36 AM	Date Posted：04/05/2008 5:45 AMCopy HTML Just thought I would throw this one in for discussion. Miracles, healings !!! Do you believe in them still??? have you experienced any???? Im sure Moth and Dog would say no, however I could be wrong......... Please no emotive comments.
Sea Urchin	Share to: #1
Rank：Poster Venti III Score：9110 Posts：436 From：Australia Register：15/02/2007 7:34 AM	Re：miracles !!!!!! relevent and still around Date Posted：04/05/2008 6:29 AMCopy HTML Funnily enough, today's meeting (at Edge church) was all about rembering all of the miracles God has done in your life, and when i started remembering the things God had done for me I fell to my knees in tears of love and grattitude that Jesus has done so much for me. Tonight's meeting will be a short sermon and prayer for any sick or anyone with needs for most of the meeting, as well as testimonies of what God has done. I'm really looking forward to seeing some amazing breakthroughs. I couldn't even list all of the things God has done for me on here, but i've seen instant miraculous occurances, i've prayed for things as trivial as headaches and viruses and had them dissapear instantly, i've experienced God heal me of depression and a desire to end my life, God's restored my marriage (from the mess that Revival caused) he's healed my sister of cancer, he's healed my friends sister of cancer (just recently) completely and even gave me a word of knowledge that she would be completely all clear (which she is). I could go on and on and on if i started to remember everything i've seen and received from our wonderful loving God and Saviour Jesus Christ. The biggest miracle of all is seeing people set free from the chains of this world and coming to know him and have a personal relationship with the God of Heaven and Earth. Your unfailing love, O Lord, is as vast as the heavens; your faithfulness reaches beyond the clouds. Your righteousness is like the mighty mountains, your justice like the ocean depths.
Sea Urchin	Share to: #2
Rank：Poster Venti III Score：9110 Posts：436 From：Australia Register：15/02/2007 7:34 AM	Re：miracles !!!!!! relevent and still around Date Posted：04/05/2008 6:31 AMCopy HTML oops, that was from Set Free, not Sea Urchin :-s Your unfailing love, O Lord, is as vast as the heavens; your faithfulness reaches beyond the clouds. Your righteousness is like the mighty mountains, your justice like the ocean depths.
MothandRust	Share to: #3
Rank：Forum Oracle Score：41550 Posts：1881 From：Australia Register：27/02/2004 11:21 PM	Re：miracles !!!!!! relevent and still around Date Posted：04/05/2008 9:53 AMCopy HTML Do you believe in them still??? have you experienced any???? I think the word 'miracle' is another interpretive word, but Ian can enlighten us to the proper semantics, perhaps - heh. When it comes to the following law then I certainly believe in them and have experienced some bloody doozies. The probability of certain things happening are sometimes millions to one, but a myriad of improbable things probably and do happen all the time. They may seem miraculous in a supernatural way, but are simply math. Littlewood's law states that individuals can expect miracles to happen to them, at the rate of about one per month. By its definition, seemingly miraculous events are actually commonplace. In other words, miracles do not exist, but are rather examples of low probability events that are bound to happen by chance from time to time. Polkinghorne suggest that miracles are not violations of the laws of nature but "exploration of a new regime of physical experience". Theologico-Political Treatise he talks about miracles as those events of whose causes we are ignorant. Im sure Moth and Dog would say no, however I could be wrong......... You're sure you could be wrong? If you're saying a miracle is "a transgression of a law of nature by a particular volition of the Deity, or by the interposition of some invisible agent", then I'd have to say I've never seen any tangible evidence during my time and place on the planet. I acknowledge that many many people profess to having experienced unexplainable supernatural phenomena, but without wanting to discredit people, for all I know, these stories are the products of misperception, ignorance, attention seeking, outright untruthfulness or mental disorder. I've seen and have experienced 'amazing' things, but that's different, eh? God given miracles though? I'm always interested to hear stories, and would love to hear the story of an ex-amputee, but would need proof to go with it. Please no emotive comments. No emotions at all allowed in the replies? I'll keep it stoic. Instagram and Twitter: @mothpete
MothandRust	Share to: #4
Rank：Forum Oracle Score：41550 Posts：1881 From：Australia Register：27/02/2004 11:21 PM	Re：miracles !!!!!! relevent and still around Date Posted：04/05/2008 1:54 PMCopy HTML Reply to brolga (04/05/2008 07:39:03) I have found over the years, whether it is to do with sickness, operations or whatever, having faith and looking to Jesus to bring one through whatever, the end result is always in the positive. We may not class them as miracles as such, but it is the timing of it all, we pray, it happens. I no longer look for "miracles," just offer up thanksgiving, and it seems to work every time. brolga "Always" in the positive? "Every" time? Hmm, this is what I was referring to when people misconstrue events to be miraculous. The only way this would be a true statement is if 'every' time you prayed for someone, a healing occurred outside the bounds of natural healing. Of course, unless the prayee died, then it would work in some time, but even if the subject died after a while you could always put a positive 'spin' on it as 'part of the plan'... ergo, prayers are always answered. Instagram and Twitter: @mothpete
Ex_Member	Share to: #5
Rank： Score：0 Posts：0 From：Unknown Register：21/09/2018 12:36 AM	Re：miracles !!!!!! relevent and still around Date Posted：04/05/2008 2:54 PMCopy HTML Yes, so far everytime. Some might, but I don't consider that as a "miracle," I think it is dangerous to believe it more than the natural. What part does the mind itself play in the healing recovery of the body, mankind hasn't scratched the surface in discovering what power lies there and I don't believe we ever will. There is wisdom and knowledge in the bible that needs to be acknowledged, such as the saying, "A merry heart doeth good like a medicine." (Proverbs 17:32) I read somewhere that medical science has found out that laughter causes certain hormones to produce chemicals that increases the immune system and helps fight off sickness and disease. We find that stresses of life have an adverse effect on our health. Why bust your guts to have such material gain when you can be more healthy and happy with less to do, afterall you can't take it with you when you die. . So the bottom line is, live for your needs not for your wants and give thanks always to God. It is all about attitude, hey. brolga
Didaktikon	Share to: #6
Rank：New User Score：681 Posts：23 From：Australia Register：29/08/2007 7:54 AM	Re：miracles !!!!!! relevent and still around Date Posted：04/05/2008 11:06 PMCopy HTML 'morning. Mothra. A basic definition of 'miracle', one that I prefer even though it can be quite loose theologically (and I won't bore you with a long-winded theological definition), is this: the immediate* activity of God as distinct from the mediate activity of God. Anyway... Miracles are not* commonplace and were never intended to be, and that in spite of the claims of some within the Pente camp. Further, neither should healings to be equated with miracles, although healings are, in some sense, miraculous. Speaking from personal experience I've not yet witnessed a biblical 'miracle', although I have experienced several things which might best be defined as 'miraculous', and which were clearly the immediate activity of God, as distinct from his mediate activity. Note the semantic dichotomy? Blessings, Ian email: didaktikon@gmail.com
Sea Urchin	Share to: #7
Rank：Poster Venti III Score：9110 Posts：436 From：Australia Register：15/02/2007 7:34 AM	Re：miracles !!!!!! relevent and still around Date Posted：05/05/2008 7:36 AMCopy HTML Just wondering... is it a miracle when someone lives that should have died? When someone is told that they cannot have children and they do? Or are they not miracles at all? Are they healings and therefore NOT miracles? Or am I just a 'loopy Pente' Ian? (I know you just love that phrase) Just wondering.. Urch Your unfailing love, O Lord, is as vast as the heavens; your faithfulness reaches beyond the clouds. Your righteousness is like the mighty mountains, your justice like the ocean depths.
MothandRust	Share to: #8
Rank：Forum Oracle Score：41550 Posts：1881 From：Australia Register：27/02/2004 11:21 PM	Re：miracles !!!!!! relevent and still around Date Posted：05/05/2008 10:11 AMCopy HTML Just wondering... is it a miracle when someone lives that should have died? When someone is told that they cannot have children and they do? Flawed doctor's diagnosis perhaps? Instagram and Twitter: @mothpete
Ex_Member	Share to: #9
Rank： Score：0 Posts：0 From：Unknown Register：21/09/2018 12:36 AM	Re：miracles !!!!!! relevent and still around Date Posted：05/05/2008 11:07 AMCopy HTML Moth or just maybe a miracle........... As christians and in particular in mine and urchins case as pentecostal christians it would be amiss for us to not believe in miracles, you see that is part of who we are and if we didnt believe this we would hypocritical.
MothandRust	Share to: #10
Rank：Forum Oracle Score：41550 Posts：1881 From：Australia Register：27/02/2004 11:21 PM	Re：miracles !!!!!! relevent and still around Date Posted：05/05/2008 12:40 PMCopy HTML Moth or just maybe a miracle........... 'maybe' is the critical word. Maybe, maybe not. It's all in the eye of the beholder and influenced by what you 'want' to believe and what your peers believe and want you to believe, maybe. Doctors make mistakes all the time and to be pregnant, even though a doctor said otherwise, does not necessarily a miracle make. As christians and in particular in mine and urchins case as pentecostal christians it would be amiss for us to not believe in miracles, you see that is part of who we are and if we didnt believe this we would hypocritical. ... or realistic. But naturally, all that goes without saying. I was a believer in 'miracles' for over 30 years, and I'm not arguing over what you or Urchin should or shouldn't believe. I'm just promoting critical thinking and realism. Instagram and Twitter: @mothpete
Glad-to be out	Share to: #11
Rank：Posterior Maximus Score：15160 Posts：701 From：Faroe_islands Register：07/04/2006 8:57 AM	Re：miracles !!!!!! relevent and still around Date Posted：05/05/2008 1:03 PMCopy HTML Something happened when my daughter was born. Too gruesome for detail. Have been told that her survival and her mental acuity are due entirely to a miracle, but athough I WANT to believe that it was a true miracle, as with anything that happens when the medical profession is involved there is room for "critical thinking and realism". When you leave a place like the GRC ALL your beliefs and the very foundations of your belief SYSTEM is shaken and on reflection, I can't say that I have been aware of a miracle occuring that couldn't have been explained in some way. One lady in the GRC did however have her story written up in the local paper with the medical profession of the day saying that her recovery was a miracle. Given the need to pray for a miracle to happen, I would still have FAITH that it would occur. Scepticism, mixed with blind faith, seems to be the order of the day now. Cheers, Glad "Faith is not about everything turning out OK; Faith is about being OK no matter how things turn out."
Ex_Member	Share to: #12
Rank： Score：0 Posts：0 From：Unknown Register：21/09/2018 12:36 AM	Re：miracles !!!!!! relevent and still around Date Posted：05/05/2008 4:00 PMCopy HTML Its all about perception and preconception, people! There would appear to be all sorts of miracles occurring on a daily basis, if we have eyes to see them. Yet yes, rarely is there one that couldn't be answered away or discounted by critical analysis. Last I heard, the sceptic society still haven't found anyone to give a $mill to! The biggest issue here is what I might describe as 'this = that' thinking. That is, people who have embraced one of many 'belief systems' tend to develop a mindset whereby they attribute all & any event as some kind of confirmation of their beliefs. Its all cognitive! It can be uncanny how good we can be at convincing ourselves of just about anything, as far fetched as it may be. There are apparently otherwise intelligent people that have talked to dead people, been abducted by aliens, and had all sorts of miracles happen due to some divine being casting selective favour upon them, because they are faithful. I'm quite aware that I am just as capable as anyone else at this form of self delusion, and kind of guard myself from any attachment to any fixed set of beliefs (yet at the same time, I entertain myself with romantic notions of strange possibilities). A strange paradox exists therefor, that whilst I can see precious little true divine miracles & interventions occurring, those who acknowledge the fact, still maintain belief that they used to occur 'once upon a time'! Ian's assertion that these events are rare and never were meant to be commonplace is pretty odd (if not preposterous)! The Bible is riddled with accounts of amazing magnitude for all to see. Many scriptures (that the pentes hang their hats on) are explicit in saying such powers are the nature of the christian God. I can't see how any amount of theologising can explain that away. It (to me) makes the whole thing pretty unbelievable! My way of thinking is, we must look at what we know to be true from our own experience (critical thinking) in terms of physics, life and such. From this standpoint, we can evaluate possibilities of other realities. If it holds true today, it probably held true historically. For christians to believe in a once demonstrably powerful but presently passive god is nonsensical! Yet, for those that would believe emphatically in the bible, and its miraculous accounts, the god should be a helluvalot more active than he most evidently is NOT. Really, after many years being amidst thousands of 'believers' we all should slap ourselves in the face and realise that the millions of testimonies about a god pulling strings on your behalf are little more than wishful thinking, and self delusion. And all along, others with quite different beliefs are equally deluded in adhering to their own set of beliefs. Dogma (christian, muslim, whatever) is a dangerous and deceptive disease! E5, Emotive or not, that is my response! Dog.
Didaktikon	Share to: #13
Rank：New User Score：681 Posts：23 From：Australia Register：29/08/2007 7:54 AM	Re：miracles !!!!!! relevent and still around Date Posted：05/05/2008 11:38 PMCopy HTML Good morning, Dog. A strange paradox exists therefor, that whilst I can see precious little true divine miracles & interventions occurring, those who acknowledge the fact, still maintain belief that they used to occur 'once upon a time'! Ian's assertion that these events are rare and never were meant to be commonplace is pretty odd (if not preposterous)! The Bible is riddled with accounts of amazing magnitude for all to see. Many scriptures (that the pentes hang their hats on) are explicit in saying such powers are the nature of the christian God. I can't see how any amount of theologising can explain that away. It (to me) makes the whole thing pretty unbelievable! I think you may need to wrap your head around the issue of context, big fella For instance you will find that miracles in the Old Testament were centred around the immediate activity of God at work within the context of his covenant relationship with Israel, and then mostly during the period surrounding the Exodus (as mediated through Moses). One doesn't read of anywhere near the same concentration of miracles throughout the remainder of that testament (although they do occur). Now fast-forward a little. Most of the miracles in the New Testament were centred around the immediate activity of God at work within the context of his covenant relationship with New Israel, and then mostly during the period recorded by the Gospels (as mediated through Jesus Christ). Again, one doesn't read of anywhere near the same concentration of miracles in the remainder of that testament (although, again, they do occur). Get the picture yet? Blessings, Ian email: didaktikon@gmail.com
Ex_Member	Share to: #14
Rank： Score：0 Posts：0 From：Unknown Register：21/09/2018 12:36 AM	Re：miracles !!!!!! relevent and still around Date Posted：06/05/2008 12:21 AMCopy HTML Concentration............ more at certain times, less at other times.....SO WHAT!!! Doesn't change that there are all those biblical stories of those times, yet today we see an entirely different reality (yet the pentes continue clutching at straws to try and pretend it is now as it was supposedly then). Neither does it change that there are many bible scriptures than DO suggest a continuing miraculous and active god (that has failed to manifest since man invented the ability to record history by video etc. They are stories in a book. Just like Dumbo the flying elephant, Peter Pan, and Gandalph. Get real people!
Didaktikon	Share to: #15
Rank：New User Score：681 Posts：23 From：Australia Register：29/08/2007 7:54 AM	Re：miracles !!!!!! relevent and still around Date Posted：06/05/2008 12:42 AMCopy HTML Guest, I'm going to attempt to be rather charitable for moment, and presume that you're not quite as silly as your response, below, would indicate. Therefore I'm going to assume that you simply haven't thought the matter through, adequately. Okay? Concentration............ more at certain times, less at other times.....SO WHAT!!! C-O-N-T-E-X-T. Think about it. And further, try reflecting on the ramifications that invariably result. Doesn't change that there are all those biblical stories of those times, yet today we see an entirely different reality (yet the pentes continue clutching at straws to try and pretend it is now as it was supposedly then). C-O-N-T-E-X-T. Consider: what is the principle difference between the events of those times, and the events of today? What is different (a hint though, it has nothing to do with the invention of Sony Handicams) Neither does it change that there are many bible scriptures than DO suggest a continuing miraculous and active god (that has failed to manifest since man invented the ability to record history by video etc. As I pointed out previously, God is active in both mediate (the more 'common') and immediate (the less 'common') senses. You've clearly failed to distinguish the reasons why he was active in the latter sense, during certain (very specific) phases of salvation history. However, being the positive kind of guy that I am, I reckon a little directed concentration on your part will provide you with one or two possible answers They are stories in a book. Just like Dumbo the flying elephant, Peter Pan, and Gandalph. I'm sure they are Blessings, Ian email: didaktikon@gmail.com
Ex_Member	Share to: #16
Rank： Score：0 Posts：0 From：Unknown Register：21/09/2018 12:36 AM	Re：miracles !!!!!! relevent and still around Date Posted：06/05/2008 12:51 AMCopy HTML As christians and in particular in mine and urchins case as pentecostal christians it would be amiss for us to not believe in miracles, you see that is part of who we are and if we didnt believe this we would hypocritical. _________________________________________________________________________ E5 - I don't know why it would be 'hypocritical' to not believe in miracles ? The reason that I do is because I HAVE experienced them. Also I don't 'identify' myself as a 'pentecostal christian' - I am a CHRISTIAN full stop. It's like saying "I'm a Methodist christian or a Baptist christian" - if you get what I mean. Ian - whether we call them miracles or healings or provisions or whatever is not relevant. I personally believe (and have not seen anything in scripture to the contrary) that God IS alive and DOES work in and through people's lives today. He is just as relevant to us today as He was to (eg) Moses or to Peter. Further, scripture is just as relevant to us today as it was when it was written. All - if anyone wants to hear about one of the miracles I HAVE experienced, read on: My beautiful 23 year old daughter is a living miracle - I was told that I couldn't have more children after my first child and yet 11 years later (and within a couple weeks of praying about it) I fell pregnant. I fully acknowledge that to some people this may not seem like a miracle or a healing at all and that is their choice to mock/disbelieve etc. It doesn't make it any less real to me because others don't believe it! I KNOW that God heard our prayer (if you met my daughter you would understand). She has grown and matured into an awesome young woman of God - in spite of 22 years of RF/RC influence and their usual lack of encouragement throughout her entire life. What is a miracle to me may not seem like a miracle to others - but it isn't any less a miracle, if you get what I mean! Urchin
Didaktikon	Share to: #17
Rank：New User Score：681 Posts：23 From：Australia Register：29/08/2007 7:54 AM	Re：miracles !!!!!! relevent and still around Date Posted：06/05/2008 1:02 AMCopy HTML Good morning, Urch. I'll preface my comments by pointing out that there are two principle forms of theologising that Christians can, and do, engage in. The most common is "folk theology". The least common is biblical theology. One is rigorously scriptural, the other usually isn't. E5 - I don't know why it would be 'hypocritical' to not believe in miracles ? The reason that I do is because I HAVE experienced them. Also I don't 'identify' myself as a 'pentecostal christian' - I am a CHRISTIAN full stop. It's like saying "I'm a Methodist christian or a Baptist christian" - if you get what I mean. Actually, to be Pentecostal is to believe, accept, and promote a specific set of "core" beliefs. Whether you care to accept the adjective or not, you are a Pentecostal Christian. Ian - whether we call them miracles or healings or provisions or whatever is not relevant. I personally believe (and have not seen anything in scripture to the contrary) that God IS alive and DOES work in and through people's lives today. He is just as relevant to us today as He was to (eg) Moses or to Peter. Further, scripture is just as relevant to us today as it was when it was written. Folk theology. The distinction between "miracle" and "healing" is crucially relevant from a theological standpoint. Now, who is it that has suggested: (1) that God isn't alive or working through (and in) people's lives today; (2) that he is somehow less relevant today then he was in ages past; and (3) that Scripture is somehow less relevant today that it was previously? I ask these questions because, to be frank (hi Frank), you seem to imply that such represents my position! If so, how did you come to such a bizzarre conclusion? All - if anyone wants to hear about one of the miracles I HAVE experienced, read on: What is a miracle to me may not seem like a miracle to others - but it isn't any less a miracle, if you get what I mean! Folk theology, and remarkably subjective reasoning to say the very least! Blessings, Ian email: didaktikon@gmail.com
Ex_Member	Share to: #18
Rank： Score：0 Posts：0 From：Unknown Register：21/09/2018 12:36 AM	Re：miracles !!!!!! relevent and still around Date Posted：06/05/2008 5:56 AMCopy HTML Yes, I think miracles are still around. In Revival churches it seems almost routine to substantiate the receiving of the Holy Spirit/tongues with the signs (following) of healing and protection. "I prayed about it and was healed" In many testimonies God seems to be in the business of healing backs, colds and headaches. Many depressed people in Revival churches though seem to battle along independently as the church will shy away from this complaint and they don't like it mentioned in testimonies. I, therefore, had become skeptical of their approach to healing and testimonies of healing. A later incident turned my skepticism into belief. I believe modern medicine is a God given miracle of healing. There are, however, times when doctors have to concede that all in their power has been done, there is no more they can do, and have been confounded by the miraculous. A young man was in hospital suffering a stroke and organ failure due to many years of drug abuse and was not expected to last the night. A young (and considered inexperienced) RF pastor of a small assembly sat through the night with him praying fervently for his recovery. The young man was given his life back on that night seven years ago. I don't know full details of what transpired during that night, whether the man was fully conscious all the time, but I know, and am sure, of the absolute sincerity of the pastor. When I think of this healing the scripture verses in James (5:14-16) come to mind. "Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. Confess your faults one to another that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much." Righteous ministers of churches are the ones initially called upon to pray for anoint the sick with oil (or is this symbolic? I don't know) Oil is used in many traditional and also Pentecostal churches. I have heard of one RF church anointing the sick with oil. Don't know if it still continues as it is not their practice to do this. I feel there is a scriptural way of going about healing prayer, although it may not always be in God's plan for all sick, who have been sincerely prayed for, to be healed and God calls some home. Epi
Glad-to be out	Share to: #19
Rank：Posterior Maximus Score：15160 Posts：701 From：Faroe_islands Register：07/04/2006 8:57 AM	Re：miracles !!!!!! relevent and still around Date Posted：06/05/2008 6:07 AMCopy HTML This is not meant to be antagonistic------BUT, If you exclude healings and anything to do with the realm of Medicine, what type of event would be construed to be a miracle in this day and age? Does anyone know of such an event or occurrence? a GRC example ------ The pastor or some other zealot in Columbia was held up at gunpoint and when the guy pulled the trigger, the gun failed to go off. They were convinced it was the hand of God and therefore a miracle. I think that there could be lots of reasons why a weapon wouldn't fire, given the situation and circumstance. Lastly, are we right to question these events? Cheers, Glad GRC anoint people with oil when praying for a healing. They have laying on of hands and then I guess for the more "serious" cases we were anointed with oil. Have had prayer for healing, laying on of hands and been anointed with oil on numerous occaisions, expecting a healing. Apart from the ones which were fixed surgically, I am still waiting. "Faith is not about everything turning out OK; Faith is about being OK no matter how things turn out."
Ex_Member	Share to: #20
Rank： Score：0 Posts：0 From：Unknown Register：21/09/2018 12:36 AM	Re：miracles !!!!!! relevent and still around Date Posted：06/05/2008 6:24 AMCopy HTML Urchin, i concure with Ian on his point that we are pentecostal christians, we believe in the experience of pentecost both our churches are pentecostal, Like you I am not into labels but that is what we are . Thank you for shareing your testimonie re your daughter
MothandRust	Share to: #21
Rank：Forum Oracle Score：41550 Posts：1881 From：Australia Register：27/02/2004 11:21 PM	Re：miracles !!!!!! relevent and still around Date Posted：06/05/2008 9:17 AMCopy HTML If you exclude healings and anything to do with the realm of Medicine, what type of event would be construed to be a miracle in this day and age? Does anyone know of such an event or occurrence? Apart from gold and silver dust appearing? Actually, speaking of parlour trick miracles, do you remember Mike Willesee's infatuation with them a few years ago? His documentary, which I think I've still got on tape somewhere, was viewed by over 30 million Americans and showed stigmata supposedly happening 'live' on film. It did look pretty extraordinary from memory, but then so does David Copperfield's stuff. The show included bleeding and milked statues, amongst other faves such as Mary's face apparitions and the like. Last Sunday and this sunday there is a Richard Dawkins documentary on the ABC called, "The enemies of Reason". He made a good point about the development of beliefs in miracles and superstitions. He didn't actually say that but inferred it from the segment concerning conditioning and B.F. Skinner's pigeon tests. People developed gambling superstitions just as pigeons developed superstitions about acquiring food pellets that dropped into their cages. One pigeon noticed that sometimes the food pelllet would appear when it looked over its left 'shoulder', when in fact the pellets were dropped randomly. It developed a 'superstition' of looking over its left side to invoke food appearing. As Christians we would pray for any and every ailment and sing hallay-looya whenever a 'healing' happened to occur. This is like hooting at the Gods whenever a double six is rolled in Monopoly at the exact and most beneficial time. Sometimes in life you will be hoping for a double-six and in all probability, you're eventually sure to roll one. If you missed Richard Dawkin's show, you can watch it on googleVideo from the following blog. I found the experiments debunking astrology particularly interesting (if only to present you with something that Dawkins is promoting that Christians will agree with also): http://joshuagough.blogspot.com/2007/09/richard-dawkins-enemies-of-reason.html Instagram and Twitter: @mothpete
Didaktikon	Share to: #22
Rank：New User Score：681 Posts：23 From：Australia Register：29/08/2007 7:54 AM	Re：miracles !!!!!! relevent and still around Date Posted：06/05/2008 10:46 PMCopy HTML Hi, Epi. There's something about the way that Revivalists go about their business that I've always found amusing. Well, there are several things actually, but I'll concentrate on just the one for the moment! Prayer lines. Now the old Revs consider everything that they do to be in complete accord with scriptural teaching. However, where in Scripture do we find any mention of prayer lines? The fact is, such is just another uncritically inherited "Pentecostal-ism". Of course the Revs would like to claim that this is simply their application of the James 5:14 healing service passage. But that passage quite specifically states that the sick are to call for the elders of the church. The Revivalist practice is for the "elders" to call for the sick! So how could anybody honestly claim that "this is that" with a straight face?! And to develop this issue a little further: with respect to the James 5 healing service I don't think enough people go on to read the significant "qualifier" to the matter, which is to be found in verse 16. If I might ask something of a rhetorical question: how many times have Revivalist pastors confessed their sins to the people that they intend praying for in the so-called prayer line? Not too many, I'd wager, and so I wonder whether this fact has something to do with the reality of "healing" being a very hit-and-miss occurrence in Revivalist assemblies? Something to ponder... Blessings, Ian email: didaktikon@gmail.com
Ex_Member	Share to: #23
Rank： Score：0 Posts：0 From：Unknown Register：21/09/2018 12:36 AM	Re：miracles !!!!!! relevent and still around Date Posted：06/05/2008 11:24 PMCopy HTML Ian a very good point re sins/prayer/healing, thanks for sharing that, i have read it b4 but is nice to be reminded of it and to ponder on its ramifications. Re "prayer lines" it appears( to me anyway) that this is a thing created more out of convienence than anything else. God Bless E5
Didaktikon	Share to: #24
Rank：New User Score：681 Posts：23 From：Australia Register：29/08/2007 7:54 AM	Re：miracles !!!!!! relevent and still around Date Posted：07/05/2008 1:08 AMCopy HTML All, It's probably appropriate that I introduce a little more information at this point in this particular conversation, in the hope that it 'sparks' further thought and discussion of some far weightier issues. It is my considered opinion that Pentecostals tend to be very big on their particular brand of "spiritual triumphalism": a miracle here, a healing there, and so forth. One area in which they tend to be somewhat lacking, however, is with respect to serious theological reflection. Consequently, Pentecostal theologising can often be shallow at best, and rather unbalanced at worst. Consider as an example, this: where do Pentecostals 'sit' with respect to a theology of suffering? Any thoughts? Blessings, Ian email: didaktikon@gmail.com
Talmid	Share to: #25
Rank：Regular Rookier Score：5980 Posts：293 From：Australia Register：21/04/2008 10:04 PM	Re：miracles !!!!!! relevent and still around Date Posted：07/05/2008 10:04 AMCopy HTML Hi Epi I'd like to add to your comments regarding the "I do not sin fallacy" that's believed in some quarters of RF - mainly for the benefit of those RF'rs who don't hold to that fallacy. The many RF'rs who recognise that Christians by virtue of being human do sin need to ask themselves why this fallacy persists and has not been dealt with conclusively, at least among all the leadership. As far as I'm aware, the question of what is believed regarding this has not been raised among the Council members, despite (proof-texting here) the rather serious point made in 1 Jn 1:8 that "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us." I invite any RF'rs reading this to correct me if the issue has been raised in the Council and all its members do in fact affirm that they do sin. A final thought for RF'rs, not only does context make a mockery of this teaching, modern translations such as the ESV clearly show how today's readers misinterpret the 17th century language of the KJV when they adopt the "I do not sin" fallacy. Sorry E5 about going "off-topic", but I figure that highlighting this might cause some RF'rs to reconsider how well their leaders are 'keeping their doctrine pure", without even needing to go down the "tongues" path. The evidence for Mann-made global warming is unequivocal.