Is tongues for salvation...???? (views for +against) -Rough study notes to get u all chattin. (Bible based)

Title: Is tongues for salvation...???? (views for +against) -Rough study notes to get u all chattin. (Bible based)
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Date Posted：22/04/2007 4:45 PMCopy HTML

I realisethere's probably a lot of info scattered around on this topic. I'd really love to open up a new discussion-I welcome youall ....(including current Revivalist's- or other people that believe in tongues 4 salvation...)Please comment- and try to make your points mainly biblically based- Thanks.

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Re： Is tongues for salvation...???? (views for +against) -Rough study notes to get u all chattin. (Bible based)

Date Posted：22/04/2007 4:45 PMCopy HTML

A little draft -study on tongues-
Is tongues evidence of receiving the Spirit? ( as tongues-for-salvation people say.) 
( In this study the tongues-for-salvation people will be addressed as T4S people.)
What exactly is the function and purpose of tongues?
Please read this and give your feedback- I am still trying to figure tongues out.
I think this study will help people that are still attending T4S churches such as Revival Fellowship etc.
I've put the information in sections to make it easier to refer to.
 
Section No 1 
T4S people say that believers must have the Spirit to be saved, because of Romans 8:9.
  Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 
Maybe that Scripture means that if believers aren't led by the Spirit- walking with Jesus- in the ways of God- --putting on the mind of Christ- ... then they are none of His.
Does it really mean that there can be believers in Jesus that don't have the Spirit-? (so therefore are none of His?)
 
Section 2 
 
Tongues in the Gospels(Matt, Mark, Luke and John)

Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 
Does this mean everyone that believes will have this 'sign' of speaking in new tongues?
 
The signs confirm the word...(see below) It doesn't say that they are salvation 'signs'. They confirm that God is with them as they preach about Jesus- the Gospel.

Mar 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

The other signs mentioned are

Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. 

If everybody has to speak in tongues- (like tongues-for-salvation people believe).... then does everybody have to have these other signs at some stage?
- and as for it being the sign that apparently 'occurs first' when one has apparently 'received the Spirit',- can't that person who got the tongues just go straight out and lay their hands on the sick and see them recover? ( since everybody will have this sign too-(apparently)). By the way-that is not testing the Lord...wouldn't it be more rightfully called "doing good"- and help them preaching the Gospel?
But what we actually see happen is the fact that most people who do 'speak in tongues' cannot lay their hands on the sick and see them recover.
And what of casting out devils..?
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T4S people also add other Scriptures from the Gospels- to prove why they think tongues is proof of receiving the Spirit.
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Section 3 
These scripture below are John the Baptist talking about Jesus.

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Mar 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost. 

Luk 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

Joh 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. 
T4S people say believers must be baptised with the Spirit. Jesus is shown to be the One that will do this baptism of the Spirit.

Luk 24:49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high. 
From Luke 24:49 and Acts 1:4 we see that this baptism of the Spirit seems to also be the same as the promise.
Acts 1:4 is quite clear. Jesus says this baptism of the Spirit- that John spoke of was- to happen soon- (it actually happened on the day of Pentecost.(Acts 2.))

Act 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

Act 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

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Re： Is tongues for salvation...???? (views for +against) -Rough study notes to get u all chattin. (Bible based)

Date Posted：22/04/2007 4:46 PMCopy HTML

Section 4 
The passage below is a favourite of T4S People. They think it means that all believers have to be born of the Spirit- which they say is the same as receiving/being baptised in the Spirit. 
In John 3:8- 
T4S people say that the word 'wind' is 'spirit' -(and I think it is able to say that too), and the sound that you hear is tongues.
So when someone receives the Spirit/is born of the Spirit, you will hear the sound/(they say it can mean voice)- of them speaking in tongues.
Is that really what this passage is saying?
 
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 

Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 

Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 

Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. 
From the passage below, it seems that nobody could receive the Spirit until after Jesus was glorified-( when He went back up to the Father.)

Joh 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 

Joh 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
So the passages above are the main ones used by T4S people to suppot their T4S message.
 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 
Section 5 
Passages from Acts
 
Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. 
The Spirit gave them the utterance of tongues.

This seems that 'they' is the 12 Apostles. (not the 120)-(which is what the T4S people normally preach.) And when they day of Pentecost came... seems that it may have been a different day to the day that they all cast lots for Mathias.
Note: Galileans were the ones speaking. Were the 12 Apostles all from Galilee? Were the 120 all from Galilee?

Act 2:7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? 
~and it also says...But Peter stood up with the 11. It seems that it was just the 12 Apostles. 
.Act 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
 
The tongues they spoke were heard and understood by foreigners. (They didn't need to be interpreted here.)
They spoke in tongues about 'the wonderful works of God'.

Act 2:11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God. 
Also note that they weren't 'asking for the Spirit'. ( and probably not even expecting tongues- )
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Section 6 
The passage below shows that when Cornelius and co received the Holy Spirit- they spoke in tongues- that seems to be how Peter and co knew they had the Spirit.

Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 

Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 

Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 

Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 
Cornelius and co. were heard speaking in tongues ------and magnifying God in their native language?
or......even magnifying God in their tongues?
-Maybe Peter and co- knew more languages themselves- and so understood what they were saying.
-Or, did they just look like they were speaking in a foreign language- and then also magnify God in their native language that Peter and co understood?
-Or did they just look like they were magnifying God- even though Peter and co. didn't actually understand a word of it?

It would seem that like in Acts 2:11 - they possibly did praise God with their new tongues- and not separately in their native language... that maybe this is the case here too. That Cornelius and co. did magnify God with their new tongue- not magnifying God ( at this specific moment-) in their native language.
 
Note that they were not 'asking' for the Spirit. Or surely not expecting 'tongues'.
Note: Some tongues-for salvation people think that the reason Peter was sent to Cornelius was to show that he needed to speak in tongues to be saved. (Even though he was already a good, God fearing man.) I'm sure that the main reason Peter was sent to him, is that Cornelius had not yet heard the Gospel-(the good news about Jesus). Now that Jesus had died for the world- everybody must believe in Jesus- even if they already believed in God (Yahweh).
 
Is Acts 10- an exceptional circumstance? (eg: because this is the first time gentiles had been called to know Jesus.)
 
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Section 7 
 
This is the 3rd time in Scripture that the Spirit was given to people by hand. ( The 1st- when Peter and John, went to the Samaritans. The 2nd when Ananias laid hands on Saul/Paul.
 
Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

These people believed John the Baptist but hadn't heard of Jesus. So Paul preached the Gospel to them- then he baptised them into Jesus- then laid hands on them-. 
 
Note that these people did not already know about Jesus. Some T4S people think that these men were believers in Jesus- and that Paul asked them if they received the Holy Spirit when they believed in Him. They (T4S people) ask people this question even though they already believe in Jesus-
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 
Section 8 
 
Is it possible for believers to not have the Holy Spirit? 
-It seems so in Acts 8-

Act 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. 

Act 8:13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done. 

Act 8:14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: 

Act 8:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: 

Act 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) 

Act 8:17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

Act 8:18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, 

Act 8:19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost. 
Acts 8 states that there were believers in Jesus- who had been healed, had joy, were baptised in water....but had not yet received the Spirit. 
Is Acts 8 an exceptional circumstance? (eg: because this is the first time the Samaritans were called into knowing Jesus.)
 
Did -and do people 'normally' get the Spirit when they believe in Jesus...or confess Him as Lord...or at their water baptism?
 
We know that Simon the ex-sorcerer saw that when they laid hands on the people -the Spirit was given. So what happened when Peter and John laid hands on the Samaritans? 
 
The tongues-for-salvation people say that they probably spoke in tongues. It's possible. But is this really what happened?
 
Is receiving the Holy Spirit a separate event -apart from salvation? Is someone only saved when they have received the Spirit? How do we know when we have received the Spirit?- Do we have to have a sign that we have received the Spirit?
 
Why couldn't Phillip lay hands on them to receive the Spirit? Could only Apostles do it? It seems that Ananias wasn't an Apostle - and it seems that he laid hands on Saul/Paul to receive the Spirit.

Act 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

Or was it because Peter and John had to see with their own eyes- that God was calling the Samaritans?

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Re： Is tongues for salvation...???? (views for +against) -Rough study notes to get u all chattin. (Bible based)

Date Posted：22/04/2007 4:47 PMCopy HTML

Section 9 
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Tongues in Corinthians ,Chapter 12-14.
 
 
In Paul's letter to the Corinthian church, he likens the church to a body. He says that we all have different parts/gifts............- like a body does- ( eg- our body is not full of eyes etc,- we have two legs, two eyes , a nose etc-) It seems that he is saying that the church members-( the believers) will all have a different gift- each member will not have the same gift....

1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
 1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?


1Co 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? 

Paul then (to cap his point off), asks do all speak in tongues?... the answer is obviously no. 
Some people say that this chapter 12- is just for in the 'church meeting' ( when they come together.)
So they think it means 'everybody speaks in tongues' (when they 1st get the Spirit)- but then in the meeting- only some people actually have that 'gift' of tongues.
But this reasoning just does not add up. One example... If you say that- ....then it also means that all are Apostles- except for in the church meeting- when only a few will be...
1 Corinthians 12 is an important Scripture because if it means what it says- that not everybody will speak in tongues.... then 'tongues for salvation" churches are wrong.
I am yet to see a possibly valid interpretation of 1 cor 12 from T4S people.
I encourage T4S people to re-read 1 Cor 12-  I believe it clearly teaches what I've stated above. Have a look for yourself.
Also note that this is the first time that interpretation of tongues is mentioned.
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Section 10 
This verse below is trying to get the point across that love is the greatest! -it doesn't matter if we speak in tongues- because if we don't have love/charity- then it's pointless. 
If they don't change their salvation doctrine...at the least I think this scripture needs to be preached along side the 'tongues-for-salvation' churches message...- to remind people that tongues will not save someone if they don't practice love/charity. I think a lot of tongues-for-salvation people don't really understand this fact.


1Co 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

I don't think that believers ever did speak in ' tongues of angels'. I think Paul was exaggerating just like these other Scriptures show...
 
 
 


1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

1Co 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.


1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
The verse above shows that tongues will cease. There is much debate as to when this will/has happen(ed).
Some people think that tongues ceased when that generation of first believers passed away. Some reason that this was because the New Testament had been completed by then- and that marked the ceasing of tongues.
Some people think that tongues is still a valid sign/gift today. They reason that Jesus' return will mark the ceasing of tongues.
 
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1Co 14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
Why did Paul say he wished everyone spoke in tongues?
This is the 2nd time interpreting the tongue is mentioned.
Notice also, that the purpose of these gifts is to edify the church.
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1Co 14:6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine? 

It seems that Paul is saying that tongues is pointless-without interpretation- when compared to the other things.
Section 11 
 
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1Co 14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: 

Why was Paul thankful he spoke in tongues more than others? Some tongues-for-salvation people think that it is because he was very grateful for his salvation.
Maybe it's because he knew that the tongues was useful in certain circumstances.
Some tongues-for-salvation people also say that this verse states that all speak in tongues.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 
 
The above Old Testament Scripture is used here to show that even though people speak in tongues- people -(Jews? or unbelievers? ) will still not hear Him. It seems to show that tongues works in such a way that the 'tongues' itself does not encourage people to turn to God. 
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1Co 14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

1Co 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

1Co 14:23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

Some tongues-for-salvation people say that 1 Cor 14:23 proves that all do speak in tongues.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Co 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. 

Christians are told...do not forbid tongues. Does that mean that believers should be allowed to speak in tongues in private?
Or does that mean that if someone does speak in tongues - and if there is an interpreter in the church- that they should be allowed to speak?
Or did this just apply to the early believers- because tongues has ceased now?
 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Note:
Tongues and laying hands on the sick/healing both seem to be signs-(Mark 16), and also gifts of the Spirit (1 Corinthians 12).
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Section 12 
T4S people also normally say that praying in tongues is the same as praying in the Spirit. Is that right?


1Co 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

1Co 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. 
Is that what this really means? 
Note also; that it says my spirit- (as opposed to God's Spirit.)
 
The above scripture is sometimes quoted with John 4.(below), by the T4S people.


Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

The T4S people say that 'praying in tongues' is worshipping God in the Spirit. They sometimes ask other believers how they worship God in the Spirit- they go on to tell the believer that they are unable to worship God in Spirit- if they don't speak in tongues.
Is this right?
Note; John 4:24 doesn't say worship in Spirit. It says worship in spirit. (eg: The human spirit/heart, as opposed to the Spirit of God.)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The passage below states that love is to be sought, and also prophecy...it then says in verse 2 - the reason being that tongues is not spoken to men- but it is spoken to God. It goes on to say prophesy is helpful for men, but tongues just helps the speaker. So it seems to be saying that tongues is not good for edifying the church- unless it is interpreted. (see verse 13)
 

1Co 14:1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

1Co 14:3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.

1Co 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
 
Paul doesn't seem to be encouraging believers to speak in tongues to edify themselves.- rather he is showing that believers should be using gifts to edify the church.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 


1Co 14:12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

1Co 14:13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
Paul told the believers that spoke in tongues- to pray that they could interpret it, so that the church will be edified.
He says...


1Co 14:16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest? 

1Co 14:17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified. 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

1Co 14:28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God. 
Tongues must never be used in the church without an interpreter.
 
 
Are believers allowed to get together at 'prayer meetings' and 'prayer and fasts' and all speak in tongues together?
no.


1Co 14:23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
T4S people usually say that because there are no new people at the meeting- (or that they are seeking themselves for the Spirit/tongues - that it is ok for them all to speak in tongues at the same time.
Is that right?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Section 13 
T4S people think Jude 1:20 encourages them to pray in tongues. Does it really?
Is also the term ' walking in the Spirit ' telling us to walk in tongues? 


Jud 1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, 
Can we be sure that speaking in tongues is praying in the Spirit?
T4S people also say that Ephesians 6:18 tells believers to pray in tongues. Does it really?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Eph 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints; 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
In Scripture.....Is anybody ever encouraged to seek for the Spirit? No
.... Is anybody ever told they will speak in tongues when they 'get the Spirit'? No
Are we ever told that if a believer doesn't speak in tongues they aren't saved.
T4S people often have the assuming view that all the letters in the New Testament have been written to believers that all already speak in tongues. Assuming this is dangerous. 
Note to T4S people....
Don't just believe things are true- just because you get taught it by someone ( Pastor/ teacher )  so adamantly.  Just because they think they have it right- how do you really  know if they have it right?

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Re： Is tongues for salvation...???? (views for +against) -Rough study notes to get u all chattin. (Bible based)

Date Posted：22/04/2007 5:13 PMCopy HTML

Here's some more info- as if u need any!-   to help you all think about more things to chat about....
 
Other ideas in relation to this tongues thread are...
If tongues are for today- then.... are there also Apostles today?  Who and where are these 'Apostles' today???
Didn't an Apostle have to see Jesus- from His baptism- to His ascension back to heaven?
Were the Apostle the only ones who could do miracles? No, others did...Stephen and Phillip... did anybody else?
Did their gifts to do miracles/healings die with them? 
If tongues is for today- is there prophecy today?  Is God still revealing His will to people through prophets? Are the words that 'prophets' speak today- to be held in the same level of authority as the Bible?
Are there still mega-miracles-today?    ...... I mean like the ones that Jesus and the Apostles did!  Mega healings, (like with the handkerchief of Pauls? ...and raising people from the dead (like lazarus)....so that even the people who didn't agree with Jesus had to admit that He did these things.
If yes- where?                     If not- why not?
If there is no real tongues for today- and no other gifts-  .............why are there still teachers? Isnt that a gift?
That'll get u all going.  

Tiffany Roche
Rank：Member IV Score：1490 Posts：58 From：Unknown Register：16/04/2007 12:27 PM	Date Posted：22/04/2007 4:45 PMCopy HTML I realisethere's probably a lot of info scattered around on this topic. I'd really love to open up a new discussion-I welcome youall ....(including current Revivalist's- or other people that believe in tongues 4 salvation...)Please comment- and try to make your points mainly biblically based- Thanks.
Tiffany Roche	Share to: #1
Rank：Member IV Score：1490 Posts：58 From：Unknown Register：16/04/2007 12:27 PM	Re： Is tongues for salvation...???? (views for +against) -Rough study notes to get u all chattin. (Bible based) Date Posted：22/04/2007 4:45 PMCopy HTML A little draft -study on tongues- Is tongues evidence of receiving the Spirit? ( as tongues-for-salvation people say.) ( In this study the tongues-for-salvation people will be addressed as T4S people.) What exactly is the function and purpose of tongues? Please read this and give your feedback- I am still trying to figure tongues out. I think this study will help people that are still attending T4S churches such as Revival Fellowship etc. I've put the information in sections to make it easier to refer to. Section No 1 T4S people say that believers must have the Spirit to be saved, because of Romans 8:9. Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. ^{Maybe that Scripture means that if believers aren't led by the Spirit- walking with Jesus- in the ways of God- --putting on the mind of Christ- ... then they are none of His. Does it really mean that there can be believers in Jesus that don't have the Spirit-? (so therefore are none of His?) Section 2 Tongues in the Gospels(Matt, Mark, Luke and John) Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;} Does this mean everyone that believes will have this 'sign' of speaking in new tongues? The signs confirm the word...(see below) It doesn't say that they are salvation 'signs'. They confirm that God is with them as they preach about Jesus- the Gospel. Mar 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen. The other signs mentioned are Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. If everybody has to speak in tongues- (like tongues-for-salvation people believe).... then does everybody have to have these other signs at some stage? - and as for it being the sign that apparently 'occurs first' when one has apparently 'received the Spirit',- can't that person who got the tongues just go straight out and lay their hands on the sick and see them recover? ( since everybody will have this sign too-(apparently)). By the way-that is not testing the Lord...wouldn't it be more rightfully called "doing good"- and help them preaching the Gospel? But what we actually see happen is the fact that most people who do 'speak in tongues' cannot lay their hands on the sick and see them recover. And what of casting out devils..? ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- T4S people also add other Scriptures from the Gospels- to prove why they think tongues is proof of receiving the Spirit. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Section 3 These scripture below are John the Baptist talking about Jesus. Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Mar 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost. Luk 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire: Joh 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. T4S people say believers must be baptised with the Spirit. Jesus is shown to be the One that will do this baptism of the Spirit. Luk 24:49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high. From Luke 24:49 and Acts 1:4 we see that this baptism of the Spirit seems to also be the same as the promise. Acts 1:4 is quite clear. Jesus says this baptism of the Spirit- that John spoke of was- to happen soon- (it actually happened on the day of Pentecost.(Acts 2.)) Act 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. Act 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
Tiffany Roche	Share to: #2
Rank：Member IV Score：1490 Posts：58 From：Unknown Register：16/04/2007 12:27 PM	Re： Is tongues for salvation...???? (views for +against) -Rough study notes to get u all chattin. (Bible based) Date Posted：22/04/2007 4:46 PMCopy HTML Section 4 The passage below is a favourite of T4S People. They think it means that all believers have to be born of the Spirit- which they say is the same as receiving/being baptised in the Spirit. In John 3:8- T4S people say that the word 'wind' is 'spirit' -(and I think it is able to say that too), and the sound that you hear is tongues. So when someone receives the Spirit/is born of the Spirit, you will hear the sound/(they say it can mean voice)- of them speaking in tongues. Is that really what this passage is saying? Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. From the passage below, it seems that nobody could receive the Spirit until after Jesus was glorified-( when He went back up to the Father.) Joh 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. Joh 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) So the passages above are the main ones used by T4S people to suppot their T4S message. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Section 5 *Passages from Acts* Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. The Spirit gave them the utterance of tongues. This seems that 'they' is the 12 Apostles. (not the 120)-(which is what the T4S people normally preach.) And when they day of Pentecost came... seems that it may have been a different day to the day that they all cast lots for Mathias. Note: Galileans were the ones speaking. Were the 12 Apostles all from Galilee? Were the 120 all from Galilee? Act 2:7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? ~and it also says...But Peter stood up with the 11. It seems that it was just the 12 Apostles. .Act 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: The tongues they spoke were heard and understood by foreigners. (They didn't need to be interpreted here.) They spoke in tongues about 'the wonderful works of God'. Act 2:11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God. Also note that they weren't 'asking for the Spirit'. ( and probably not even expecting tongues- ) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Section 6 The passage below shows that when Cornelius and co received the Holy Spirit- they spoke in tongues- that seems to be how Peter and co knew they had the Spirit. Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? Cornelius and co. were heard speaking in tongues ------and magnifying God in their native language? or......even magnifying God in their tongues? -Maybe Peter and co- knew more languages themselves- and so understood what they were saying. -Or, did they just look like they were speaking in a foreign language- and then also magnify God in their native language that Peter and co understood? -Or did they just look like they were magnifying God- even though Peter and co. didn't actually understand a word of it? It would seem that like in Acts 2:11 - they possibly did praise God with their new tongues- and not separately in their native language... that maybe this is the case here too. That Cornelius and co. did magnify God with their new tongue- not magnifying God ( at this specific moment-) in their native language. Note that they were not 'asking' for the Spirit. Or surely not expecting 'tongues'. Note: Some tongues-for salvation people think that the reason Peter was sent to Cornelius was to show that he needed to speak in tongues to be saved. (Even though he was already a good, God fearing man.) I'm sure that the main reason Peter was sent to him, is that Cornelius had not yet heard the Gospel-(the good news about Jesus). Now that Jesus had died for the world- everybody must believe in Jesus- even if they already believed in God (Yahweh). Is Acts 10- an exceptional circumstance? (eg: because this is the first time gentiles had been called to know Jesus.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Section 7 This is the 3rd time in Scripture that the Spirit was given to people by hand. ( The 1st- when Peter and John, went to the Samaritans. The 2nd when Ananias laid hands on Saul/Paul. Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. These people believed John the Baptist but hadn't heard of Jesus. So Paul preached the Gospel to them- then he baptised them into Jesus- then laid hands on them-. Note that these people did not already know about Jesus. Some T4S people think that these men were believers in Jesus- and that Paul asked them if they received the Holy Spirit when they believed in Him. They (T4S people) ask people this question even though they already believe in Jesus- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Section 8 Is it possible for believers to not have the Holy Spirit? -It seems so in Acts 8- Act 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Act 8:13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done. Act 8:14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: Act 8:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: Act 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) Act 8:17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost. Act 8:18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, Act 8:19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost. Acts 8 states that there were believers in Jesus- who had been healed, had joy, were baptised in water....but had not yet received the Spirit. Is Acts 8 an exceptional circumstance? (eg: because this is the first time the Samaritans were called into knowing Jesus.) Did -and do people 'normally' get the Spirit when they believe in Jesus...or confess Him as Lord...or at their water baptism? We know that Simon the ex-sorcerer saw that when they laid hands on the people -the Spirit was given. So what happened when Peter and John laid hands on the Samaritans? The tongues-for-salvation people say that they probably spoke in tongues. It's possible. But is this really what happened? Is receiving the Holy Spirit a separate event -apart from salvation? Is someone only saved when they have received the Spirit? How do we know when we have received the Spirit?- Do we have to have a sign that we have received the Spirit? Why couldn't Phillip lay hands on them to receive the Spirit? Could only Apostles do it? It seems that Ananias wasn't an Apostle - and it seems that he laid hands on Saul/Paul to receive the Spirit. Act 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. Or was it because Peter and John had to see with their own eyes- that God was calling the Samaritans?
Tiffany Roche	Share to: #3
Rank：Member IV Score：1490 Posts：58 From：Unknown Register：16/04/2007 12:27 PM	Re： Is tongues for salvation...???? (views for +against) -Rough study notes to get u all chattin. (Bible based) Date Posted：22/04/2007 4:47 PMCopy HTML *Section 9* ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Tongues in Corinthians ,Chapter 12-14. In Paul's letter to the Corinthian church, he likens the church to a body. He says that we all have different parts/gifts............- like a body does- ( eg- our body is not full of eyes etc,- we have two legs, two eyes , a nose etc-) It seems that he is saying that the church members-( the believers) will all have a different gift- each member will not have the same gift.... 1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. ^{1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?} 1Co 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? Paul then (to cap his point off), asks do all speak in tongues?... the answer is obviously no. Some people say that this chapter 12- is just for in the 'church meeting' ( when they come together.) So they think it means 'everybody speaks in tongues' (when they 1st get the Spirit)- but then in the meeting- only some people actually have that 'gift' of tongues. But this reasoning just does not add up. One example... If you say that- ....then it also means that all are Apostles- except for in the church meeting- when only a few will be... 1 Corinthians 12 is an important Scripture because if it means what it says- that not everybody will speak in tongues.... then 'tongues for salvation" churches are wrong. I am yet to see a possibly valid interpretation of 1 cor 12 from T4S people. I encourage T4S people to re-read 1 Cor 12- I believe it clearly teaches what I've stated above. Have a look for yourself. Also note that this is the first time that interpretation of tongues is mentioned. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Section 10 This verse below is trying to get the point across that love is the greatest! -it doesn't matter if we speak in tongues- because if we don't have love/charity- then it's pointless. If they don't change their salvation doctrine...at the least I think this scripture needs to be preached along side the 'tongues-for-salvation' churches message...- to remind people that tongues will not save someone if they don't practice love/charity. I think a lot of tongues-for-salvation people don't really understand this fact. 1Co 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. I don't think that believers ever did speak in ' tongues of angels'. I think Paul was exaggerating just like these other Scriptures show... 1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. 1Co 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing. 1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. The verse above shows that tongues will cease. There is much debate as to when this will/has happen(ed). Some people think that tongues ceased when that generation of first believers passed away. Some reason that this was because the New Testament had been completed by then- and that marked the ceasing of tongues. Some people think that tongues is still a valid sign/gift today. They reason that Jesus' return will mark the ceasing of tongues. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1Co 14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying. Why did Paul say he wished everyone spoke in tongues? This is the 2nd time interpreting the tongue is mentioned. Notice also, that the purpose of these gifts is to edify the church. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 1Co 14:6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine? It seems that Paul is saying that tongues is pointless-without interpretation- when compared to the other things. Section 11 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 1Co 14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: Why was Paul thankful he spoke in tongues more than others? Some tongues-for-salvation people think that it is because he was very grateful for his salvation. Maybe it's because he knew that the tongues was useful in certain circumstances. Some tongues-for-salvation people also say that this verse states that all speak in tongues. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The above Old Testament Scripture is used here to show that even though people speak in tongues- people -(Jews? or unbelievers? ) will still not hear Him. It seems to show that tongues works in such a way that the 'tongues' itself does not encourage people to turn to God. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 1Co 14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. 1Co 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. 1Co 14:23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad? Some tongues-for-salvation people say that 1 Cor 14:23 proves that all do speak in tongues. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Co 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. Christians are told...do not forbid tongues. Does that mean that believers should be allowed to speak in tongues in private? Or does that mean that if someone does speak in tongues - and if there is an interpreter in the church- that they should be allowed to speak? Or did this just apply to the early believers- because tongues has ceased now? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Note: Tongues and laying hands on the sick/healing both seem to be signs-(Mark 16), and also gifts of the Spirit (1 Corinthians 12). ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- *Section 12* T4S people also normally say that praying in tongues is the same as praying in the Spirit. Is that right? 1Co 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. 1Co 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. Is that what this really means? Note also; that it says my spirit- (as opposed to God's Spirit.) The above scripture is sometimes quoted with John 4.(below), by the T4S people. Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. The T4S people say that 'praying in tongues' is worshipping God in the Spirit. They sometimes ask other believers how they worship God in the Spirit- they go on to tell the believer that they are unable to worship God in Spirit- if they don't speak in tongues. Is this right? Note; John 4:24 doesn't say worship in Spirit. It says worship in spirit. (eg: The human spirit/heart, as opposed to the Spirit of God.) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The passage below states that love is to be sought, and also prophecy...it then says in verse 2 - the reason being that tongues is not spoken to men- but it is spoken to God. It goes on to say prophesy is helpful for men, but tongues just helps the speaker. So it seems to be saying that tongues is not good for edifying the church- unless it is interpreted. (see verse 13) 1Co 14:1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy. 1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. 1Co 14:3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort. 1Co 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. Paul doesn't seem to be encouraging believers to speak in tongues to edify themselves.- rather he is showing that believers should be using gifts to edify the church. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 1Co 14:12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church. 1Co 14:13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret. Paul told the believers that spoke in tongues- to pray that they could interpret it, so that the church will be edified. He says... 1Co 14:16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest? 1Co 14:17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 1Co 14:28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God. Tongues must never be used in the church without an interpreter. Are believers allowed to get together at 'prayer meetings' and 'prayer and fasts' and all speak in tongues together? no. 1Co 14:23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad? T4S people usually say that because there are no new people at the meeting- (or that they are seeking themselves for the Spirit/tongues - that it is ok for them all to speak in tongues at the same time. Is that right? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Section 13 T4S people think Jude 1:20 encourages them to pray in tongues. Does it really? Is also the term ' walking in the Spirit ' telling us to walk in tongues? Jud 1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, Can we be sure that speaking in tongues is praying in the Spirit? T4S people also say that Ephesians 6:18 tells believers to pray in tongues. Does it really? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Eph 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints; ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ In Scripture.....Is anybody ever encouraged to seek for the Spirit? No .... Is anybody ever told they will speak in tongues when they 'get the Spirit'? No Are we ever told that if a believer doesn't speak in tongues they aren't saved. T4S people often have the assuming view that all the letters in the New Testament have been written to believers that all already speak in tongues. Assuming this is dangerous. Note to T4S people.... Don't just believe things are true- just because you get taught it by someone ( Pastor/ teacher ) so adamantly. Just because they think they have it right- how do you really know if they have it right?
Tiffany Roche	Share to: #4
Rank：Member IV Score：1490 Posts：58 From：Unknown Register：16/04/2007 12:27 PM	Re： Is tongues for salvation...???? (views for +against) -Rough study notes to get u all chattin. (Bible based) Date Posted：22/04/2007 5:13 PMCopy HTML Here's some more info- as if u need any!- to help you all think about more things to chat about.... Other ideas in relation to this tongues thread are... If tongues are for today- then.... are there also Apostles today? Who and where are these 'Apostles' today??? Didn't an Apostle have to see Jesus- from His baptism- to His ascension back to heaven? Were the Apostle the only ones who could do miracles? No, others did...Stephen and Phillip... did anybody else? Did their gifts to do miracles/healings die with them? If tongues is for today- is there prophecy today? Is God still revealing His will to people through prophets? Are the words that 'prophets' speak today- to be held in the same level of authority as the Bible? Are there still mega-miracles-today? ...... I mean like the ones that Jesus and the Apostles did! Mega healings, (like with the handkerchief of Pauls? ...and raising people from the dead (like lazarus)....so that even the people who didn't agree with Jesus had to admit that He did these things. If yes- where? If not- why not? If there is no real tongues for today- and no other gifts- .............why are there still teachers? Isnt that a gift? That'll get u all going.