I believe in hell but I don't believe it's full of fire or anything. I think the scriptures about the lake of fire and torment are figorative not literal.

Well, if it real then let's hope you're right (for sake of those of us who might be headed there). 

But this line of thought does beg the question of why Jesus used such graphic imagery to describe hell if it really isn't all that bad?  It has to be pretty bad if he is using fire and brimstone to desribe it.  Fact is, if you believe the Bible is the inspired word of God then you MUST believe that Hell is at least as bad as how Jesus described it.  If it isn't then Jesus was being misleading.  So fire or not, Jesus apparently believed it's pretty bad.

I believe that Hell = death and death is the absence of life and life is Jesus Christ and Jesus is God so therefore Hell is the absence of God

But (as I said above)...If hell is eternal separation from God, how can it exist if it is separated from God?  Nothing can exist apart from God, so it is not separate from God at all.  God has to maintain it, even if minimally.  You can't have it both ways.  According to the Xian view of God, Hell  ither exists with God or it cannot exist.  And if God maintains it for eternity then God is a sadist.

Why would he describe Hell that way?  Because being separated from God would be like burning in a lake of fire I guess.

How can things exist being separate from God.  Read the Old testament!  We were separate from God because of sin and it wasn't until Jesus came and bridged the gap that we were in unity with God again.

Why would he describe Hell that way? Because being separated from God would be like burning in a lake of fire I guess.

Ok, so Hell is a horrible place.  Whether actual fire or figurative, it's gonna be painful and horrible.  So this presents us with a problem.  Why would God create a place lie this and then snd people there for things like lying and having sex outside of marriage?  Or is he like a spiteful lover who would inflict pain on those that don't love him?  You see the conumdrum?  God is either unjust, giving eternal horrendous punishments for temporal sins, or he is like petty teeneager who wants everyone to like him.  I saw this recently online...

And God gives us a choice huh?  Hardly.

How can things exist being separate from God. Read the Old testament! We were separate from God because of sin and it wasn't until Jesus came and bridged the gap that we were in unity with God again.

Here is a breakdown of your idea...

1. God is omnipresent so we cannot ever be spatially separated from God...even in Hell.

2. So, most Xians say that separation spoken of in this life is a moral or spiritual one and Jesus bridges that gap.

3. You are trying to argue that the separation from God in Hell is also a moral and spiritual one.

4. But this means that hell is a moral state and not a place. 

5. It also means that those who don't believe in Jesus are in Hell right now (hardly eternal fire...at least for most).

6.  It also means that those who believe in Jesus are not in Hell (and I can tell you that I know some Xians who have much worse lives that some non-Xians).

7. But if you say that Hell is worse because it is spatial as well as moral then you can go back to point one and start all over again.

The other option here is to throw your hands up and say, "God's ways are not our ways," or "our finite minds cannot grasp the immenseness of God and his plans," or some other brain circumventing way out of tackling the issue and bury your again head in the ecclesiastical sand.

What does fire do? It changes the state of something... CHANGE is the key word to chew on for now.

Fire consumes and changes the nature of something. When we consume food, it doesn't disappear... it changes state (not a good state - but there you go). You can't digest it forever. It changes.

You can't burn something forever.Try lighting the dead black embers of wood after a camp fire. You can't... and seeing that we'll leave the body behind at death, what is it that is supposed to be continually burning anyway. If we aint got teeth, what will we be gnashing? Lloyd used to say that teeth will be provided... but he was a tosser.

In scripture, only two things happens when one is engulfed in flame:

1. It is completely and supernaturally unharmed - The Bush, the three and Fourth in the fire, the fiery chariot... and figuratively, the flames resting on the heads.
2. It burns and up and destroys.

The third possibility, that has no example, is that the unlucky unrepentant ignorant soul is spiritually burnt and engulfed in a painful flame forever and forever amen and is one that suggests that God is ultimately the author of unbearable pain and suffering for all eternity. The third possibility is an unthinkable nightmare.

I cannot believe that the God who made koalas, doffodils and strawberries could also make an instrument of eternal torture. If He did then I'd just like to say He's a big dumb nasty deity (with a good sense of humour - look I put capitals on the Hes).

***Ok, so Hell is a horrible place.  Whether actual fire or figurative, it's gonna be painful and horrible.  So this presents us with a problem.  Why would God create a place lie this and then snd people there for things like lying and having sex outside of marriage?  Or is he like a spiteful lover who would inflict pain on those that don't love him?  You see the conumdrum?  God is either unjust, giving eternal horrendous punishments for temporal sins, or he is like petty teeneager who wants everyone to like him.  I saw this recently online...***

Ok if you say so but it still stands...follow him and live, don't follow him and die.  Sounds to me like you're a teenager stomping your feet and yelling 'it's not fair'!!  Actually my children do that to me when I punish them too...I'm such a mean old Mum

***And God gives us a choice huh?  Hardly.***

Yes the choice is to live or die - your choice!

***1. God is omnipresent so we cannot ever be spatially separated from God...even in Hell.***

Man is separated from God because of sin.

***2. So, most Xians say that separation spoken of in this life is a moral or spiritual one and Jesus bridges that gap.***

True.

***3. You are trying to argue that the separation from God in Hell is also a moral and spiritual one.***

I guess so yes.

***4. But this means that hell is a moral state and not a place. ***

Probably. 

***5. It also means that those who don't believe in Jesus are in Hell right now (hardly eternal fire...at least for most).***

Yep pretty much!

***6.  It also means that those who believe in Jesus are not in Hell (and I can tell you that I know some Xians who have much worse lives that some non-Xians).***

Their spirit is not in hell but their flesh remains until it is redeemed with the spirit.  My body is in hell but walking in the spirit will make manifest the spiritual blessings onto my flesh.  It's a constant battle as what is mentioned in Romans 7.

***7. But if you say that Hell is worse because it is spatial as well as moral then you can go back to point one and start all over again.***

Why?

***The other option here is to throw your hands up and say, "God's ways are not our ways," or "our finite minds cannot grasp the immenseness of God and his plans," or some other brain circumventing way out of tackling the issue and bury your again head in the ecclesiastical sand.***

Sounds good to me.    I couldn't care less cos I ain't going to hell so I'm not really all that interested in what it is.  I don't want to go there and I'm not...I have eternal life and that's that.   The sand is a nice cool place to put my head in and it's safe - so I'll stay there if you don't mind   But you are free to continue to drive yourself crazy trying to understand things that aren't meant to be undestood while on this earth if you like...Just don't get all uptight and angry when others don't wish to join you in your quest.

Ok if you say so but it still stands...follow him and live, don't follow him and die.  Sounds to me like you're a teenager stomping your feet and yelling 'it's not fair'!!  Actually my children do that to me when I punish them too...I'm such a mean old Mum

But....

1. Your punishments for your children would more often than not fit the crime and even if you happen to go overboard it would only be by a little bit.  But God is not human and doesn't get that margin of error.

2. Your punishment is a form of discipline trying to teach your children and create in them a sense of right and wrong behaviour etc.  Your 'punishment' serves a purpose and is not for eternity.  You're not a mean old Mum, you're a caring old Mum and your punishment shows that.  If you put them into a fire of burning tires to burn them alive for eternity then we could say 'mean old mum'.

Yes the choice is to live or die - your choice!

Yes, love me or burn.  Nice choice.

Man is separated from God because of sin.

But not spatially (ie by space and distance).  God is everywhere.

***5. It also means that those who don't believe in Jesus are in Hell right now (hardly eternal fire...at least for most).***

Yep pretty much!

Buzz!  Well, not according to the Bible, "The wheat and tares grow together..." and the tares are thrown into the fire at judgement not before.

Their spirit is not in hell but their flesh remains until it is redeemed with the spirit.  My body is in hell but walking in the spirit will make manifest the spiritual blessings onto my flesh.  It's a constant battle as what is mentioned in Romans 7.

No, you're not in hell...and either am I.  We are on earth.  Again, see your Bible.

***7. But if you say that Hell is worse because it is spatial as well as moral then you can go back to point one and start all over again.***

Why?

Because God is everywhere so Hell cannot be a spatial separation from God (or it cannot exist).  Nothing exists apart from God right?

The sand is a nice cool place to put my head in and it's safe - so I'll stay there if you don't mind  

At the risk of offending you, if you admit to that then don't waste my time with responding to my posts.  I would rather talk with someone who is ready to discuss the issue or seek to give me some credible answers.  Believe it or not, I am actually looking for some credible answers or arguments that I might be unaware of.

But you are free to continue to drive yourself crazy trying to understand things that aren't meant to be undestood while on this earth if you like...Just don't get all uptight and angry when others don't wish to join you in your quest.

Thanks for your permission.  But I don't agree that these 'things that aren't meant to be undestood while on this earth'.  If the Bible is truly divine in origin then it is here on  Earth and meant to be for us in the here and now.  I bloody hate the line that paradox in Scripture can be dismissed as being beyond our understanding.  That's drivel.  If the Muslims brought that to you to defend their religion then you would scoff at them and their religion.  I used to do it with the Mormons and JWs and when confronted with my own religion'sI used to just 'praise the Lord'.  Pure shit on my part.  I now use the same measure against Xianity that I used against other religions and so have walked away. 

If your head in the sand logic is to be honestly applied to Xianity then it must also be honestly applied to all religions and then you'll be in a conundrum.  You'll have to accept all their contradictions and paradoxes.  You are being selectively ignorant and selectively biased.  I challenge you to research Mormonism for example and see what it teaches and then why it's a load of shit.  Once you do that, come back and look at the Xianity and you might be surprised at howmuch  you approach each religion with different rules for analysing.

It's only you who seems to be unhappy and unsettled with Christianity - I'm not!

Again Calamity any offence is unintended, but you should be far more sympathetic than you seem to be.  You of all people should understand how emotionally upending it is to leave one's former religion.  You often say that about moving from RF to mainstream Xianity.  After having believed something so totally  for so long, I feel the need to work through my past beliefs with a fine tooth comb.  And seeing as I was told that to walk away from my old faith would end up with me being thrown into the fire by God, I am sure you can understand my desire to weigh up the reality or non-reality of this threat. 

You're right!  I am far from settled with my decision to walk away.  I think it is the right decision to make but I am still not settled.  After all, I spent almost 1/3 of my life in Church and to expect to sort things out in  just a few years is really an unreal expectation don't you think?  I think that Xianity now seems to be full of crap, but I am hardly the kind of fool who would make a decision and then refuse to listen to information that I perhaps missed earlier on.  I think my RCI experience taught me that to keep a closed mind only leads to...well, we all know what that leads to.

But I don't care! Seriously I don't! I'm quite happy where I am...I don't have to prove anything to anyone, even myself. There's no need.

Calamity, you posted in this thread.  I did not go chasing you or pester you to post here.  Who said you have to prove anything?  I just said what I didn't believe anymore and why.  No one asked you to prove anything to anyone.  You know that God is real, you know that Hell exists, you know that Acts 2:38 is the true salvation doctrine...oops, no, sorry, I was confusing you with someone else who talks the same way.

But hey,  this room is for ex-RCs who are also ex-Xians or doubting their religion.  If it annoys you then stay in rooms where you only hear what you want to hear.  Am I getting you confused with RF members again?  Sorry, but you talk just like 'em.

Selah...

The issue of hell is crucial. It is a keystone, I believe to figuring out our beliefs. If eternal torture is how one interprets the bible then God is unjust and Jesus' temporal death had very little victory in it.

I spoke to a nice old christian lady once who seemed quite happy with the idea that the poor ignorant, sinful, unlucky 'sinners' were going to be punished forever and ever. "That's what the bible says"... who am I to argue with that. BUT I WILL... I don't believe it for a second!!! Bible authorities will tell you that this IS what the bible says... but it flies against everything I believe in. Perhaps some interpret the bible incorrectly! Heaven forbid! What about tongues... could Revival be wrong with that interpretation too. GADZOOKS... maybe hey.  (Revivalists don't preach a fiery hades, by the way... not from the documentation I have).

The wages of sin = eternal punishment... did Jesus pay that debt and go through eternal punishment? Did he burn and cry in agony for an eternal 3 days? Did he really take on the sin of the world??!! I'm pretty sure he was only dead for a few days. Actually, now that I think about it... how did he save us all by getting whipped and killed? Oh well, back to the blackboard eh?

If most of people who ever lived are going to be punished forever then God made a huge mistake creating us in the first place because he will be responsible for unceasing pain and torment.

Doesn't add up people.

Oh man, ya gotta read this stuff from http://www.hisremnant.org/eby/articles/savior/hell.html

ON the NAIL MAN... ON THE NAIL

In the New Testament there appears the word GEHENNA referring to the Valley of Hinnom, or Gehenna, which was the city dump outside the walls of Jerusalem, a place of constant burning of refuse. It is interesting to note that those who are pictured as going into Gehenna are, without exception, not the sinners of the world, but the SINNERS AMONG GOD'S PEOPLE. How precise the type! Gehenna was the city dump of Jerusalem, the Holy City, where every unclean and unnecessary thing was burned and consumed. The antitypical Gehenna to which our Lord alluded in His teaching is the process of PURIFICATION by which every unclean and unnecessary thing in the lives of His Holy People is purged and consumed by the fires of His judgment. "The Lord whom you seek, shall suddenly come to HIS TEMPLE ... but who may abide the day of His coming? and who shall stand when He appears? for He is like a REFINER'S FIRE, and like fuller's soap: and He shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and He shall PURIFY the sons of Levi (the Priesthood), and PURGE them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness" (Mal. 3:1-3). Gehenna stands as a type of the place or process of the PURIFICATION OF GOD'S PEOPLE. It is referred to in the Old Testament by the name of "Tophet," located in the Valley of Hinnom, a place where many sacrifices were made and dead bodies consumed.

If, instead of bringing every sin into judgment - punishing that sin - we and correcting the sinner - we imagine the poor sinner suffering the eternal torments of hell with its unbearable anguish, the pangs of conscience, the taunts of fiendish demons, one hour of which is more than all his earthly sorrows rolled into one - lengthen this out to endlessness and season it with hopeless despair - and its horrors will be absolutely inconceivable. Though our lips may be afraid to frame the words, our hearts will whisper, "Can such be the final fruit of God's glorious plan?" Is this the response for which He hungered when He purposed that sin should estrange His creatures from Himself? But this is far from all! Multiply this single case by scores of billions of human beings, who age after age, have been hurdled into this hopeless hell - all tortured and tormented while the ages roll, and roll, and roll... without mercy and without remedy.

"Turn or burn"

When many christian boil down their preaching unfortunately it becomes as cold as turn or burn

Salvation is a personal preference and the need to be saved is entirely dependent on the religion that you choose, not on the desire of some God whose personality is impossible to profile. Do what you need to do to make you feel good....Be the person that you want to be...the rest is just....well it's not in this life and worrying about the next life is no way to live this one. So enjoy what you have while you have it and forget about figuring out how saved you are. A true loving god will see people for who they are not for how good they are at bowing down....and if that's what he's looking for...well then he isn't worth bowing down to or being saved by.

Death and Hell

The issue I have with the whole fundy-christian belief is the fact that God would condemn you to Hell for an eternity just for your beliefs, its one thing to be punished for your crimes, and even then an eternity is too long for most crimes, it's another thing to be punished just because you don't believe in God, even if you have lived an exemplary and moral life.

I certainly don't believe in hell, as an experimental universalist. I do believe in death as a means to reunite us with the creator. With that reasoning your neshamah (eternal soul) goes to She'ol and undergoes a purification process before reuniting with the Source. There is no "hell" in the Hebrew Scriptures. The concept was borrowed from Greek Mythology.

The logical cycle - where do we go?

 

Let's go with some deductive reasoning. Your body decays and returns to the dirt. What better model can we can refer to? If there really is such a thing as a soul, it must follow some kind of laws, similiar to the physical as is the parallel - what is bound on heaven is bound in earth. When you die, your soul returns to where it came from. Just as there is but one destination for the body. There logically follows one destination for the soul. There may be diversions on the way to the final destination.

 

Let's pick another model. Water returns to the sea and flows to it's level. there are rivers, and streams, maybe a cloud formation, but it always returns to the sea. there is no other final destination. even polluted water returns to the sea.

 

Psycho Dave (Psycho@weirdcrap.com) Presents:

RETURN

Copyright 1998, Psycho Dave. All rights reserved. You may copy and distribute this tract (including printing it out and handing out to Fundamentalist Kooks on street corners), as long as you do not modify it in any way, and notify Psycho Dave.

Reply to : Anonymous

"They are leading people to hell wholesale, and you tacitly defend them."

But they aren't the ONLY ones who are leading people to hell, David. And to reiterate my earlier point: at no time have I defended those doctrines of theirs against which I disagree. I've simply defended the ?kettle' against the ?pot' calling it ?black'.

Talk about a wank.  Who's leading who to Hell?  Give me a break.  Hell is a fear-mongers construct designed to exert control and manipulation over the gullible.

--------------------

These are all things I didn't like to think about when I was a Xian...now I am fee to say it out loud without fear of deconstructing my belief system.Why I don't believe in Hell...1. If God is love, how could he invent a place of eternal torment and torture that makes the Nazi concentration camps look tame? What kind of a sick, sadistc person would invent hell and then send people there for eternity?2.If God loves us all, why send anyone there at all? Why not send sinners to an eternal 5 star hotel? Why send sinners anywhere at all? He's God right? He makes the rules. Why hell?3. Hell is an eternal punishment for temporal crimes. The punishment is far greater in intensity and time than the crimes thus showing it to be an unjust punishment and Hell is supposed to be a demonstration of God's justice.Hell has no redemptive possibilities so itserves no purpose other than punishment.4.If hell is eternal separation from God, how can it exist if it is separated from God? Nothing can exist apart from God, so it is not separate from God at all. You can't have it both ways. It either exists by God's hand or it doesn't.5. If the wages of sin is death, can't we just die to pay for our sins? After all, Jesus died to pay for our sins...he didn't suffer an eternity in hell for us. However, if hell is the punishment for sin then Jesus should have had to suffer in hell for eternity to truly take our place. And he didn't.6. Hell is a convenient way to keep people in line even when they don't get caught (in this life). The idea is that even if you get away with something socially unacceptable then God's gonna get you in the end anyway...so don't do it. It's a spiritualised form of social control.I'll add to this list as I think of others...

1. I'm not seeking your respect. 2. Hell is mentioned in the bible so I don't think it strips God of any credibility or believability (unless you want to approach it the way the Revivals do and pick and choose the bits that you agree with and reject the rest).

...or reject the whole thing 'cos it is crap.

3. Where do you get the idea of eternal torture from? The bible? I don't think so.

Fire, brimstone, weeping, gnashing of teeth.  Sounds unlike torture to me too...NOT!!!

4. When you stop personally smearing others on this forum then I might take your criticism of me a little more seriously (I suppose you could always ban me in the meantime).

You're the only one done any smearing, at least since you got here.

5. Where did you get the idea of the eternity spent in flaming pain and suffering due to ignorance idea? The bible? Again I don't think so.

Uh uh.  The Bible does so say that.  Want me to quote verses?

Okay I know this forum is yours and Mr J's private plaything but you really do need to learn to share a little.

Prhaps you should learn to get 1 though of your own and not just spout Church tradition.  Just because something is old doesn't make it right.

----------

Why would he describe Hell that way? Because being separated from God would be like burning in a lake of fire I guess.

Ok, so Hell is a horrible place.  Whether actual fire or figurative, it's gonna be painful and horrible.  So this presents us with a problem.  Why would God create a place lie this and then snd people there for things like lying and having sex outside of marriage?  Or is he like a spiteful lover who would inflict pain on those that don't love him?  You see the conumdrum?  God is either unjust, giving eternal horrendous punishments for temporal sins, or he is like petty teeneager who wants everyone to like him.  I saw this recently online...

And God gives us a choice huh?  Hardly.

How can things exist being separate from God. Read the Old testament! We were separate from God because of sin and it wasn't until Jesus came and bridged the gap that we were in unity with God again.

Here is a breakdown of your idea...

1. God is omnipresent so we cannot ever be spatially separated from God...even in Hell.

2. So, most Xians say that separation spoken of in this life is a moral or spiritual one and Jesus bridges that gap.

3. You are trying to argue that the separation from God in Hell is also a moral and spiritual one.

4. But this means that hell is a moral state and not a place. 

5. It also means that those who don't believe in Jesus are in Hell right now (hardly eternal fire...at least for most).

6.  It also means that those who believe in Jesus are not in Hell (and I can tell you that I know some Xians who have much worse lives that some non-Xians).

7. But if you say that Hell is worse because it is spatial as well as moral then you can go back to point one and start all over again.

The other option here is to throw your hands up and say, "God's ways are not our ways," or "our finite minds cannot grasp the immenseness of God and his plans," or some other brain circumventing way out of tackling the issue and bury your again head in the ecclesiastical sand.

2. Hell is mentioned in the bible so I don't think it strips God of any credibility or believability (unless you want to approach it the way the Revivals do and pick and choose the bits that you agree with and reject the rest).

Well then, it certainly strips the bible of credibility and believability... and hey , all bible readers pick and choose what they want to believe from the book. It's like playdough, this book sometimes. God says don't kill on one hand, but is okay with slaughtering the first born of the Egyptians on the other.. "Hey Moses, do as I say, not as I do"

3. Where do you get the idea of eternal torture from? The bible? I don't think so. 5. Where did you get the idea of the eternity spent in flaming pain and suffering due to ignorance idea? The bible? Again I don't think so.

Yes, I got the idea from the Bible. Are we talking about the same book? The long one with all the begatting and smiting. Okay, what's you take on Hell? I thought you were advocating a Catholic view, but I may have read you wrong. Share your opinion... or are you really an automated web bot?

4. When you stop personally smearing others on this forum then I might take your criticism of me a little more seriously (I suppose you could always ban me in the meantime).

Who have I smeared... Confused... who?  Everyone loves me... it's the other guy who takes the whipping. He loves it though, the sadist.. hehehe.

6. Ease up on the self hoots a little. It's true you've proven yourself to be very capable at condescension but I haven't got you pegged as being much of a theologian yet.

No, hopefully you'll never have me pegged as a theologian... ever. Not like good ol' Ian. I really did enjoy his responses to the cultboys... He just about had their whole church admitting their stupidity, disbanding, and using their halls for homeless shelters. Well, at least he might have sewn some seeds of healthy doubt into their mindsets while he was there.

Apart from the fact that God made himself known to me I have a little more reaspect and confidence in the fact that the brightest minds of the past thousand years kinda wrestled with these subjects and came to the same conclusion.  Then there's you

"Then there's you" - Ummm, I'm fairly certain Mr J-TLY doesn't stand alone in having an alternative view to yours and your 1000 year old lineage of bible experts. You say God made himself known to you.. was that a 'tongues' experience or another? He's got so many cool tricks... You need to remember that many bright minds of the past thousand years have also wrestled with the same subjects and also came to their own 'same' conclusions that differ with yours.

...or reject the whole thing 'cos it is crap.

Right because YOU said so

No, because it is crap. 

Fire, brimstone, weeping, gnashing of teeth. Sounds unlike torture to me too...NOT!!!

Sounds more like metaphore to me.

Now who's picking and choosing?

You're the only one done any smearing, at least since you got here.

I bet you even said that with a straight face! You! Telling someone else that they've been smearing others? Warning! Warning! Danger of lost credibility Will Robinson

Sweetheart, as far as I know, you are the only one who has made false, disparaging claims.  There is a big difference between saying "I don't like someone because he/she is a dickhead" and "He damaged people through his time as a pastor and his divorce was unjustified."  I might have given my opinion about others, but you quite literally made claims about me that you refused to back up or retract.  VERY STRAIGHT FACE .

Uh uh. The Bible does so say that. Want me to quote verses?

Sure. It'll be fun.

...but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mark 16:16)

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.  How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? (Rom 10:13-14)

In other words, yif you haven't heard then you cannot believe.  And if you cannot believe then you ARE DAMNED.  And before you tell me that people who never hear get some kind of special treatment, let me also remind you of these verses,

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: (Rom 3:10)

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. (John 14:6)

Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. (Acts 4:12)

Prhaps you should learn to get 1 though of your own and not just spout Church tradition. Just because something is old doesn't make it right.

I'm a Christian. Apart from the fact that God made himself known to me I have a little more reaspect and confidence in the fact that the brightest minds of the past thousand years kinda wrestled with these subjects and came to the same conclusion.

So you are saying that the brightest minds of the past 1000 years all believers?  Honey, you need to get out more.  Do a bit of reading beyond what you find in your Christian bookshop.  Start with books on Philosophy.

 Then there's you. Someone who threw out the baby with the bathwater. You want me to believe the sun isn't real but the weak little match you hold up is a better option to believe in? Okaaaay.

No, you want me to believe the moon is made of green cheese and then show me a really old book that says it is true and then can't understand why I don't think that's enough.

I don't like you for the same reason I don't like Revival pastors. You're an arrogant know it all bully who attacks people who won't change to becomeing little clones of themsleves. 

You don't like me?  Oh shit.  Quick, like me, like me, like me.  Please....  I think if you go back through your posts then you will see that you didn't like me before I even said anything to you.  There are Christians on this board who I get along with just fine.  Don't kid yourself, you are more offended by my unbelief than I am by your belief.  And the fact that I was once a believer and then rejected it with solid reasons just doesn't fit with your worldview.  And so you attack. 

It shows your insecurity.

 

Sorry but you'll have to do better than that. Your "I said so" doesn't count for much with me.

Ok. 

Understanding literary devices in the bible is part of interpreting it the right way. Only fundamentalists believe otherwise. Are you a fundamentalist Mr J?

But see, therein lies your problem.  Who cares if you have a PERFECT book (ie God's Word) when you need experts to interpret it.   So who has the authority or right to interpret God's word?  Perfect experts?  A Holy Catholic Church maybe?

I have no trouble with seeing and interpreting the literary devices used in the Bible.  But when you start saying this interpretation is the correct one and is the very Word of God then it still comes down to superstition inspite of the intellectual exercise to get there.  You keep talking about Theology vsFundamentalism as if these things are exclusive.  The thing is, you seem to avoid the label which fits you very well.  You accept the Bible as the Word of God and without error do you not?  That is Fundamentalism.

Honey I can smell the hypocrisy from here. Or maybe it's the stink of that stuff your dribbling at the moment (please try not to be too offended)

Ok then.  YOU show me how I did this and how you didn't.

...but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mark 16:16)

"Damned" means "cut off from God". It doesn't mean "roasting forever".

Oh come on, I could have listed all the verses about lakes of fire, etc.

Try this one. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear MY voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. (Jn 10.16)

Tradtionally (there's a word you like) this referred to the Jews and the Gentiles, not some secret bunch of "non-Christian" Christians.  But verse slinging means very little to me.  I am not defending your holy book, you are.  You asked for verses.

I guess you are a fundamentalist. All you do is quote verses as if they support you without understanding what they actually mean.

How do you know what I understand or don't?  You asked for verses which showed people who don't believe are roasted.  I showed them to you.

Romans 3:10 is about personal or "self" righteouness. John 14:6 is about Jesus's role as the saviour. Acts 4:12 is the same. And you forgot to quote Paul in Romans 1 where he talks about people being without excuse because of God's creation.

Right.  So there you go.  You know the verses that show people who don't believe get fried. 

Anyway, what are you saying?  You DON'T believe in Hell?  Hell is not so bad after all?

Who said ALL the brightest minds of the past 1000 years were Christians?

Um, you did.  You see, the use of the suffix '-est' on an adjective is called a superlative.  So when you said, 'the brightest minds of the past 1000 years' without further qualification, you said 'ALL OF the brightest minds'.  Now you are qualifying this further and I understand what you meant even if you miscommunicated it in your first post (Don't go back and edit that now will you?).

As far as our culture is concerned the majority of them were though.

Well, that was because Christianity dominated our western culture for most (there is another superlative) of the lqast 100 years.  Most of the bright people of the last 1000 years also believed the world was flat, was circled by the sun and was the centre of the universe.  My point here is that the age of an idea or the amount of 'bright' people believing it throughout history doesn't make it true now does it?

And I am not therefore saying you should cast off your master and follow me.  I am simply saying I don't agree with you and I am free to say so.  You want me to stop saying I don't believe in your God?  Is that what you want?

How's that arrogance of yours though? A third of my BA was based on philosophy so get off your high horse before you fall off and hurt yourself.

Which third?  The first third?    'Based on' philosopy?  How is a major 'based on' something?  What was your major?  I am confused.

Sounds like your pride is wounded.

Yeah, mortally.  You really fight dirty when you have nothing to say don't you?

The more you rant the more you show that your exactly like the Revival pastors.

Ouch.  I am exactly like them?  How am I 'exactly' like them?

I don't dislike you because your an ex-Christian. I could care less.

Bullshit you could care less.  You care very much.  If I sat on here ranting about the wonders of the Theology Department at Oxford then you would be all wet.

I dislike you coz your an arrogant know it all bully who attacks people who won't change to becomeing little clones of you.

When have I done that?  I react to you because you're a vicious bitch.  Baby, if the Holy Spirit hands out nastiness then your cup runneth over.

In other words you smell JUST like the creeps who run the Revivals.

See?  Your cup runneth over.

Stop fighting dirty L.  Try and remain objective.

Reply to : Te Luo Yi

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I think I recall the Methodist Church in the USA doing something like this. They published full page ads in US newspapers and invited everyone back that had been booted out or who left with their nickers in a twist.

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The Revivals should do that... or at least put on reunion days so ex-members can get together over a snag and a non-alcoholic beverage to talk about the old times. That'd be awkward though.. all the Revs would be on one side of the hall and too scared to mingle with the filthy muggles and mudbloods on the other.

Reply to : Revivals Blood

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Reply to : MothandRustAs soon as you start defending the concept of a hellish eternal torture you completely strip God of any credibility or believability.Oh please! thats the biggest load of crock shit i'v ever heard you say!

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Now as for you Wazza! There's a shocker out of left field... doesn't sound like you. Have I hit a sore spot? It's not like we haven't disussed version of hell before. Could you possibly extrapolate on what it was about the load of mine that deemed it as a crock to you...

"Them there are fightin' words" lol TLY...

Ok, I'll bite... I thought L was backing your hell view, but I pegged her wrong. I think the bible is all mixed up and contradictory re: hell, but I'm willing to go head to head if you want to explore it. You're out to defend eternal torture are you? IS that what you're trying to say? I'm saying that a God that who would create a people only to have most of it tortured for eternity is a bloody disgrace as a god. I don't believe that... you do? This is the God you worship... fair enough (well actually, it's pretty bloody unfair).. pretty rough justice I must say.

I'm a bit shocked and surprised at your tone, I must say. Didn't know you were such an advocate for a torturing God. What are they teaching you over there at the AOG/Baptist?

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Reply to : Te Luo YiI think I recall the Methodist Church in the USA doing something like this. They published full page ads in US newspapers and invited everyone back that had been booted out or who left with their nickers in a twist.The Revivals should do that... or at least put on reunion days so ex-members can get together over a snag and a non-alcoholic beverage to talk about the old times. That'd be awkward though.. all the Revs would be on one side of the hall and too scared to mingle with the filthy muggles and mudbloods on the other.Reply to : Revivals BloodReply to : MothandRustAs soon as you start defending the concept of a hel

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" You're out to defend eternal torture are you? IS that what you're trying to say? I'm saying that a God that who would create a people only to have most of it tortured for eternity is a bloody disgrace as a god. I don't believe that... you do? "

Well i beleive what Gods word says. Best leave who and how God judges people up to him. Thats his job, not ours.

"Could you possibly extrapolate on what it was about the load of mine that deemed it as a crock to you... "

LOL, whats the point? firstly if you don't beleive the bible, and think  the bible is all mixed up and contradictory, is it really worth talking about? I mean i'm not going to change your veiws, and your not going to change mine. But feel free to say when ever you think i'm writing a load of crock! lol but if you must know it was your line " you completely strip God of any credibility or believability"  that sparked my little out burst. lol

Peace bro

waz

Well i beleive what Gods word says.

That's exactly what the Revivalists say about the 'tongues for salvation' concept, among many other concepts. Well actually, thousands of churches claim that fame as well. Nup, don't fall into that trap. You should know better than most that the bible is interpretive and that it's dangerous to deal in scriptural absolutes.

Best leave who and how God judges people up to him. Thats his job, not ours.

I don't think that's best, but I doubt little ol' me could change his mind if he was set on letting millions get tortured. And, doesn't the bible actually say that  the saints shall judge people? "Do not you know that the saints shall judge the earth ... Do not you know that we shall judge angels" (1 Corinthians 6: 2 - 3).  That's a big job... ya better know your stuff and be sure where ya gonna send the poor mugs. Go easy on the angels too.. they've been doing their best. So who's judging what and who here? Contradiction? misunderstanding? misinterpretation?

LOL, whats the point? firstly if you don't beleive the bible, and think  the bible is all mixed up and contradictory, is it really worth talking about? I mean i'm not going to change your veiws, and your not going to change mine.

So... that's it? There's no point discussing anything further if I don't interpret various sections in the same way as you? Is it really about changing the minds of others? How many times have you seen someone come on this forum and change their mind because of the banter they engage in here? We come into it with our minds made up already, but yes it's worth talking about. This forum doesn't stop only at the disclaiming of all things Revival. There's bigger issues behind that. I think the bigger issue is taking ANY doctrine at face value. Everything must be challenged.. or else it's all for nothing. The conman cometh and always will.

But feel free to say when ever you think i'm writing a load of crock! lol but if you must know it was your line " you completely strip God of any credibility or believability"  that sparked my little out burst. lol

Ohhh how many times have I bit my tongue... no, you go right on doing what you're doing. If I read anything of yours that sounds like naive dribble I'll politely offer an alternative and see if a discussion can evolve. Forums are good for that sort of thing. And yes, I'll stand behind the statement that the interpretation of eternal torture by a cruel god makes zero sense.

Reply to : Revivals Blood

LOL, whats the point? firstly if you don't beleive the bible, and think  the bible is all mixed up and contradictory, is it really worth talking about? 

I think the fact that H&S doesn't believe the Bible is exactly the reason why you should be talking to him.  And I don't mean because I think he's right, but rather because you two don't agree with each other.  Come on, did you learn nothing from your time in the GRC?  Closing the matter on things religious is a silly way to be.  It is true, not everyone who does this ends up in a cult, but they definitely miss out on a lot life has to offer.

I mean i'm not going to change your veiws,

You never know, you just might. 

and your not going to change mine.

Oh come on RB.  You seem to be making the same mistake I did, and that is replacing one set of beliefs with another set without truly enquiring after the truthfulness of those beliefs and hearing what the critics have to say and why they say the things they do.  I mean it bro.  I did that and it cost me even more wasted years.  After all, isn't shutting ourselves off exactly what we did in the Revival Centre anyway?  Look where that got us.

Dare I say it RB, it seems you have are out of the GRC but the GRC way of thinking is not out of you...yet!

Believe it or not, I like you.  I am only saying this because I don't want to see you waste more years like I did.  Open your mind and explore what you believe and why you believe it, and hear why others disagree with you.

Te Luo Yi

PMSL - "Facts about hell" - Uh huh... right up there with "Facts about Santa"

For those who like a bible based essay of someone else's opinion click below.. seeing we're all into cutting and pasting links to supposedly prove a point (sorry no spooky PowerPoint at this one... just actual text and scripture):

What is Hell? http://www.hisremnant.org/eby/articles/savior/hell.html

The Lake of Fire - http://www.hisremnant.org/eby/articles/savior/lakeoffire.html

The Second Death - http://www.hisremnant.org/eby/articles/savior/lakeoffire.html#The%20Second%20Death

Hell: Satan's Biggest Lie by Eric Stetson. Why the devil wants us to believe God tortures people forever in hell. The doctrine of eternal hell has done more damage to Christianity, civilization, and the human soul than any other false teaching. (medium length)

This is a funny scripture for the universalists at heart:

"For for this we both labor and are reproached, because we hope on the living God,
who is Savior of all men--especially of those believing."- 1 Timothy 4:10, YLT (click)

http://www.what-the-hell-is-hell.com/burninglinks.htm

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Reply to : Revivals BloodLOL, whats the point? firstly if you don't beleive the bible, and think the bible is all mixed up and contradictory,is it really worth talking about?I think the fact that H&S doesn't believe the Bible isexactlythe reason why you should be talking to him. And I don't mean because I think he's right, but rather because you two don't agree with each other. Come on, did you learn nothing from your time in the GRC? Closing the matter on things religious is a silly way to be. It is true, not everyone who does this ends up in a cult, but they definitely miss out on a lot life has to offer.I mean i'm not going to change your

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HA! Now that's an even bigger load of crock than what HS was saying! lol  Trust me, if you knew me personally, you would find that comment 100% untrue. But I forgive you bro and can see how you could have come to that conclusion. If your ever back in Geelong would love to catch up for a beer and have a chat.

 

Maries daughter is now engaged can you believe that?

 

 

Tell me if I'm wrong but maybe my transition from a revival group to a more main stream church was a little less full on than yours? You have offen said that the pastors role you served in  was for religious nuts.

 

Um, yes and no.  Not everyone was a nut...although, true, most were....including me.  But I might use the term, 'religious nut' to describe people that you might describe as 'balanced christians' though.

And yes I can see where your coming from. Some groups are very much out there, even within the  AOG, but not all. Its been around 3 years now since I left, and Don't feel they have been wasted years. The people I mix with are very grounded and level headed,( nothing like the grc) and its been a fulfilling time.

 

 

Thanks for your concern,

 

You are most welcome!

 

But  I use Gods word to explore what  I believe, for me its the only thing that full fills the inner soul. The unexplainable joy its brought to me is amazing. 

 

Because if i rely only on my  natural mind and natural understanding of various people as so many do,I would simply come to the conclusion that Gods word is false. And then start being deceived by mans false veiws.

 

This forum has long served its purpose for me. When I left as most find, was a very traumatising time, and this forum was great to just talk with others and share things and found it to be a aid in the healing process. Now it serves a place to share a little humour here and there, but not really deep discussions, as people make there own choice in life what they believe in. Bit of forum chit chat wont do much.

 

 

RB

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" I guess what I meant is that some of the basic ideas underpinning the GRC may still dwell within your psyche. "

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Holy crap!! You know of any good exorcists in thg  Geelong area? 

" Um, yes and no.  Not everyone was a nut...although, true, most were....including me.  But I might use the term, 'religious nut' to describe people that you might describe as 'balanced Christians' though.  "

Well I've made sure and really have tested the water with people and groups. And during that time I even met people and groups more kook koo than the grc. Whats the difference between 'balanced Christians and 'unbalanced' well that might take some discussion.  But I know religious nuts when i meet them. I should know I used to be one big time! I was  quite the GRC zealot, preaching my heart out at the pulpit spilling my dribble like a crack induced soothsayer. I remember one message I preached on the Catholic church ( GRC thinks the popes the anti Christ lol can you believe that?!)  and the whole message i just rant and raved on and on about how God hate's those running the Catholic church. And to top it of  after the talk  people would come  up saying what a great talk it was, when really it was just a simple talk on Hate Hate Hate!!! Now that's nuts!!!!

Yes and I can see your path leading back to the Christan faith lol

I really don't see this as a switching off. Rather a letting of the Spirit to reveal and answer things. or maybe not. lol

cheers pagan

Reply to : Revivals Blood

Holy crap!! You know of any good exorcists in thg  Geelong area? 

As a matter of fact I do.  There was a married couple in Geelong that were pretty popular when I was there.  I think they went to Barabool Hills Baptist Church.  They would cast anything out of anyone...even things that weren't there.

when really it was just a simple talk on Hate Hate Hate!!! Now that's nuts!!!!

Yes and I can see your path leading back to the Christan faith lol

Well that must be great to have a son, looking forward  that maybe I will experienec that one day. Maybe a female would help me with that, so i better get cracking! lol.

But there must have been a time at some point in your life when Gods word really inspired you? hey?

I know there's a natural understanding of the mind that goes against the grain of Gods word and plan that he has for this world. And I guess that's where the things of the Holy Spirit come in to play.

OK, if you say so.

Just even some very simple things about Gods word that I find are so amazing. Like the Hundreds of prophecies in the old testament showing clearly that Jesus would come in the most amazing detail. Now i find that inspirational, I know its not for all, but i can see no way how it could be false. That's just one example, there lots of similar things like this in history that back up Gods word 100%.

A verse that comes to mind is "that the spirit searchers all things yes the deep things of God."

I really don't see this as a switching off. Rather a letting of the Spirit to reveal and answer things. or maybe not. lol

Well, that is matter of faith really.  And faith can move mountians right...and suicide bombers.

cheers pagan

I think 'pagan' seems to denote a religious belief of some sort.  I don't have one really, so maybe 'cheers agnostic' would be better.