Who is Satan?

Title: Who is Satan?
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Date Posted：29/10/2006 9:21 AMCopy HTML

kill? and: where did you first hear about satan?

if it gives you joy, enjoy! life aint pretty without it

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Re：Who is Satan?

Date Posted：29/10/2006 9:00 PMCopy HTML

Reply to : avenger dude 


kill?and:where did you first hear about satan? 
I've got a kid in my grade four class that I know is going to grow up to be Satan. What I mean is that the 'satan' part of his mind overrides any sense of morality or ethic. The kid is intellectually impaired but is pretty damn cruel and calculating for a 9 year old. I've seen what he does to children smaller than himself and it freaks me out completely. He is sadistic and enjoys seeing other people in pain! I grieve when I think about how he may turn out in a few years. I don't grieve for him.. I grieve for his future victims. 
But as for your question about the actuality of killing Satan... well, if you believe the orthodox myth of an evil singular personality then it opens up a lot of conundrums. I really enjoyed the following commentry... if you can handle reading the three following paragraphs I'd be very interested in discussing it. The full article and related text links follow the except: 


Where Did the Devil Come From?Orthodoxy had long taught that Satan was, in the beginning, a high and beautiful archangel in heaven. The theologians and preachers recite over and over how Satan was originally "the anointed cherub that covers ... the most beautiful and wise of all God's creation!" This being was, so they say, the ruler and leader of the angelic beings and apparently led them in their praise of God and shouts of joy ...the greatest being God ever created, one who had unequaled strength, wisdom, beauty, privilege, and authority, and was next to God Himself. This blameless, perfect one, named Lucifer, was created without any form of evil and with the greatest intelligence of any created being. Then, we are told, this Lucifer, suddenly realizing how beautiful and intelligent he was, became inflated with power and pride and his heart was lifted up in rebellion against God. According to the story, Lucifer gathered one-third of the heavenly angels to his cause, mustering an army with which he planned to knock God off His throne and supplant himself as king and god of the universe and there was war in heaven! Luckily, God won, cast Lucifer out of heaven and he became, instead of an holy angel, the Devil that he is today. 
It is nothing short of amazing that such a doctrine could have enjoyed such widespread acceptance in the light of the plain teachings of the Scriptures on this subject. Any man who fails to discern between facts and fables, and who opposes or rebels against facts, is a fool. Fools manifest their true state by resisting and ignoring facts. Please remember, there is a world of difference between facts, beliefs, and fantasies. I believe the core of our natural earth is hot, perhaps molten. But no man knows anything about the true conditions down there. There is no possible way of ascertaining or demonstrating the truth or falsity of my belief. So it remains merely a belief: it may be true, or it may be false. On the other hand, if I thought our natural sun were made of red paint, that would be a fantasy, just a highly improbable or irrational idea of my own. But facts are altogether different. They are actualities, realities, whether they can be demonstrated as such or not. Ice is cold. That is a fact which can be demonstrated. The earth is round. That fact has through recent centuries been conclusively demonstrated. It is neither a belief or a fantasy. Fire burns; one must have air to breathe; these are facts, and, only fools will oppose or resist them. Now we are going to state some facts. Let us contrast what MEN say and believe with what GOD says! 
Man says that Satan IN THE BEGINNING was holy, but later fell from that estate. JESUS said of Satan, "You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a MURDERER (not an angel) from the BEGINNING, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he, speaks of his own: for he is a liar and the father of it. (Jn. 8:44). In these studies on the Garden of Eden we are searching out the BEGINNING, probing into the very midsts of the past, the times before this age and past ages, that we might understand the grand and glorious purposes of our omnipotent and omniscient heavenly Father which He has purposed from the beginning of the world. How authoritatively the Lord Jesus reveals that way back there, in THE BEGINNING, in even HIS beginning, Satan WAS A MURDERER! 
http://www.hisremnant.org/eby/articles/other/serpent.html
Also written by J. Preston Eby on this topic
"The Serpent" 
 Who Made the Devil? 
 Why the Devil? 

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Re：Who is Satan?

Date Posted：30/10/2006 11:33 AMCopy HTML

ok, without getting too pedantic about what a fact is, i'll settle for the provided simplification.

i'm being frank, without considering the feelings of the author in any special way. i mean no disrespect.

this writer makes a distinction between fantasy and belief. this is probably why they (think?) they can get away with passing god of as a fact and even assuming that 'he' is male.

well, obviously they can rest on the argument that 'facts can be demonstrated' and god demonstrates himself all the time. (to who, when?)

is any creation of god the son (offspring) of god?

can satan be likened to the prodigal son, or even joseph (and the coat of many colours)? eg. did the other angels frame him out of jealousy, being preferred by god? was the story of jesus merely another attempted explanation of what happened to satan? an attempt to make sense of evil, or the necessity of having a scapegoat?

so was this article ironic, a parody, satirical and/or pastiche (whatever all these words really mean)?

if so, i like this bit: "just a highly improbable or irrational idea of my own"

basically, to have an idea of one's own, would involve a bit of rationality, right? the creation of an idea... if it just came into one's head, how can one claim it as their own?

is the idea of god more really because it was not one's own idea? (it already was supported by many people). 

anyway... when i was reading about the journey of satan in this passgae, i thought of church people or anyone being self-righteous and proud and puffed-up in being right. then falling! if it can happen to the nicest, best angel in the world, it can happen to any earthling. 

to say that satan always was a murderer is not something that can be demonstrated, or can it?

by saying this, am i "resisting and [/or] ignoring facts"?

well, had a brief read of one of the other articles and basically liked the idea that this person is skillfully making it known that god created the devil and we shouldn't deny it. however, i didn't get to any part which explains what this would mean... i guess it is a little too theological for my liking, referring back to the bible a lot, which i filter out in order to get a more balanced view of the world. therefore my comments will obviously seem irrelevant because i don't understand what's 'really' going on. 

as you see, it makes me nihilistic as a knee-jerk reaction.

i don't know if i've raised any interesting points here, except for this one maybe:

i noticed a bit of the devil and god fighting each other in these writings. the devil asking the questions: trying to rebel, perhaps? then the god side convincing him not to bother messing with the all-imperial lord of hosts. in turn, telling the audience not to try rebelling. this may be for the benefit of readers/believers who need to have their beliefs encouraged and reinforced, or just advice to make jesus one's personal saviour and be justified by faith. 

but as demonstated by these forums, cyberspace gives people the opportunity to confess anonymously, like in the good old days. even if things are metioned in an 'alter ego', whatever is mentioned, came from a certain person's mind. whether it is a true or false statement, one thing is certain and that is that 'the mind presenting the statement was capable of coming up with that statement. they had the capacity to come up with what they said, associating what they said with their cybername/avatar which they are somehow related to. 

obviously, trying to analyse the idea of the devil and god sends me on a goose-chase. 

so i'll take back my opening sentence and say that facts can be created. scientifically, or through common belief... beliefs can become facts, but isn't belief the transition of fantasy into reality?

where ideas become cultural practices.

which in turn reinforce the idea, among other things.

does anyone believe they can kill their evil side? if they did this, would it not be mean? a cruel intention. what if you were wrong (like innocent people being given the death penalty).

im not sure about children who love being evil and whether we can say they were born murderers, like satan is described. pretty scary... it does bring up the big question about how much of 'us' is natural and how much cultural.

i wonder if any amount of pity, special attention and love will affect this child's behavior, and i wonder if this would restore paradise in the universe if applied to satan?

if it gives you joy, enjoy! life aint pretty without it

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Re：Who is Satan?

Date Posted：30/10/2006 1:38 PMCopy HTML

 The Satan Story
Well, in a nutshell...
The article places Satan as the inner conflict within us all. The article suggests that Satan is not the personification of evil, but rather the part of our consciousness that biases towards doing things that will result in an imbalance, and possible harm.
The Christian mainstreamers have brought together a rather convoluted mythos based on various scriptures all over the place to feed a contradictory story... as the three priorly mentioned paragraphs conclude: The bible the mainstream Christians use to make up the story actually says that Satan was a murderer from the beginning, and not actually an angel of light. There are concepts and not individual personalities that are getting confused here.
Mainstream Christian really muddies the water by reading Revelations as futuristic events. The events in Revelation they use to cite the future are ALSO cited for Satan's fall and creation...  and They confuse the matter moreso by personalising traits and concepts as evil singular monsters, a demon for this and a demon for that. Sigh... every major civilisation has done this for many thousands of years.

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Re：Who is Satan?

Date Posted：30/10/2006 8:07 PMCopy HTML

interesting stuff. i've had a similar understanding for a while.

but things like 'the ying and the yang' (and the symbol, ying-yang thing) are quite encouraging, are they not?

are there any beliefs out there that acknowledge 'double creation'? like a joint effort?

i guess one can go in all directions forever on this topic. but basically, in seeing an evil, christians (can) become it. anyone see this point?

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Re：Who is Satan?

Date Posted：30/10/2006 11:14 PMCopy HTML

$%*'`[Anonymous]%*'`@Well I have personally witnessed a devil manifest in a person at a church service. The poor possessed person was writhing around the floor like a snake, poking his tongue out like a point and making a horrible growling voice saying "I hate the cross". It took three people to hold the person down but it took over an hour before the demon was finally exocised out of the person. Very dangerous and frightening stuff.

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Re：Who is Satan?

Date Posted：31/10/2006 8:37 AMCopy HTML

"I hate the Cross" --  But does not the Bible say 'cursed be everyone who is hung on the Cross'   -  that mean the person possessd by satan should be saying 'I love the Cross' instead of 'I hate the Cross'.  

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Re：Who is Satan?

Date Posted：31/10/2006 11:46 AMCopy HTML

Reply to : Anonymous [Anonymous] 


Well I have personally witnessed a devil manifest in a person at a church service. The poor possessed person was writhing around the floor like a snake, poking his tongue out like a point and making a horrible growling voice saying "I hate the cross". It took three people to hold the person down but it took over an hour before the demon was finally exocised out of the person. Very dangerous and frightening stuff. 

Oh really... sounds like a mental problem that should have been treated by professionals. What your associates did was feed his fantasies and perpetuate the delusion. They made it worse for the poor wretch in the longrun because they appealed to the faulty left hemisphere of his brain. Yes that's dangerous!
Christians... on one hand they say that all people have a choice to be for God or not, but on the other hand they say that it is possible to be possessed by a foreign entity and forced into madness. It's another contradiction that is swept under the rug of mainstream Christianity.
You should visit hospital mental wards and see this sort of behaviour... many times it's a chemical imbalance that results in the sufferer to believe all sorts of myths and fantasies. They act them out and retell their bizarre stories with complete belief. Alien adbuctions, Ghosts, Angel visitations, Jersey devils, Mary sightings and Mothmen... many the result of mental conditions. And many are put off balance in the first place by hell-fearing christian mentality.
sheeshh, if the guy was floating off a metre off the ground I might be curious, but until then it's just another poor schizoprenia sufferer being allowed to act out his darkest nightmares.

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Re：Who is Satan?

Date Posted：31/10/2006 8:31 PMCopy HTML

ahhh the cross... that thing that made such an impact on humanity...
 
holidays, christmas, religions
 
maybe some people hate it so much because some people love it so much? a natural balance thing.
 
anyway, where does the demon go after it has left the body? is it a spirit? but is it still an energy? what form does it take after being excorcised? must be hard to tell. 
 
yes, a serious issue. but i also heard that religions in many parts of the world were still labelling certain psychological imbalances as demons. also, speaking in tongues and doing other things in fervent 'spirit' have been described as things people do when they are imbalanced/psychologically disturbed. i don't know all the right words, but i hope you understand.

if it gives you joy, enjoy! life aint pretty without it

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Re：Who is Satan?

Date Posted：06/03/2008 1:10 PMCopy HTML

Reply to Didaktikon (05/03/2008 19:59:09).
A radio preacher in his sermon, was preaching on the power of Satan and mentioned that Satan, unlike our Ceator, could only be in one place at the one time. We can see clearly from scripture that God is omipresence, but what of the adversary. 
Anyone with any views? Food for thought only.

brolga

Ralph,

First up, the term is omnipresent. Second, as a creature, Satan shares the constraints/limitations of 'creatureliness'; consequently, Scripture does not present him as being capable of being in more than one place at one time.

Well, I wonder how fast he can travel? Is he impeded by air friction? Or can he astrotravel? Blink and reappear in different places... 'blink', Istanbul... 'blink', Brisbane... Perhaps he has some speed limit restrictions. Didn't Daniel have to wait a while for Michael to show up? And if he does have speed, where does he get his energy from? Children's sould most likely.

He probably delegates evil orders to his minions and they pass it on Chinese whisper style. They're bound to make mistakes and possess the wrong people with such a system though. Being imperfect, he'd make a lot of mistakes but would still have a good system and synergy with his horde of dirty demons. Some punishment/reward system, I'm sure.

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Re：Who is Satan?

Date Posted：06/03/2008 10:06 PMCopy HTML

Good morning, Mothra.

Well, I wonder how fast he can travel? Is he impeded by air friction? Or can he astrotravel? Blink and reappear in different places... 'blink', Istanbul... 'blink', Brisbane... Perhaps he has some speed limit restrictions. Didn't Daniel have to wait a while for Michael to show up? And if he does have speed, where does he get his energy from? Children's sould most likely.

Wrong movies, big fella  But have you considered the possibility that spiritual beings might not be quite so limited as are physical ones? Actually, given your epistemological leanings, have you stopped to consider why it is that you struggle with the concept of the potential existence of spiritual beings to begin with? Personally, I'd simply love to chat with you about the issue and/or the ramifications that derive from it.

He probably delegates evil orders to his minions and they pass it on Chinese whisper style. They're bound to make mistakes and possess the wrong people with such a system though. Being imperfect, he'd make a lot of mistakes but would still have a good system and synergy with his horde of dirty demons. Some punishment/reward system, I'm sure.

Well now, would it really matter, one way or the other? 

Blessings,

Ian

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Re：Who is Satan?

Date Posted：07/03/2008 2:13 PMCopy HTML

Good morning, Mothra.

Hi Dido,

Well, I wonder how fast he can travel? Is he impeded by air friction?

Wrong movies, big fella  

And which 'movies' would be the correct ones? Heh...

But have you considered the possibility that spiritual beings might not be quite so limited as are physical ones? 

I've certainly considered it more than once. I spent a great deal of time contemplating the idea, but I'm sure you noticed the tongue in my cheek when I was questioning the physical abilities of 'angels and demons'. The prompt given was omnipresence and we can see even in the supposed spiritual realm there were limitations and therefore 'rules'.

Actually, given your epistemological leanings, have you stopped to consider why it is that you struggle with the concept of the potential existence of spiritual beings to begin with? 

I'm not sure I 'struggle' with the concept. I've just drawn the line as to which spiritual beings I believe in... none at this stage, although I... no, actually none. I think it's a fun idea to consider a parallel universe where creatures live unseen alongside ours, but I just don't find it realistic, or logical at all, from where I'm sitting at the moment.

Personally, I'd simply love to chat with you about the issue and/or the ramifications that derive from it.

Cool. I'd love to hear your analysis of the fruit of my spiritual entity unenlightenment. I've no doubt it would be interesting.

Being imperfect, he'd make a lot of mistakes but would still have a good system and synergy with his horde of dirty demons. Some punishment/reward system, I'm sure.

Well now, would it really matter, one way or the other?

*blink blink* - I'm not sure. Would we have more to fear from a perfectly organised evil management or a flawed conspirital society in supernatural places? I suppose the answer is of no consequence for me given my somewhat ignorant stance on the existance of a fallen Lucifer in the first place.

At the moment I KNOW sandflies are omnipresent in this damn town.

Live long and prosper.

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Re：Who is Satan?

Date Posted：07/03/2008 9:28 PMCopy HTML

Good morning, Pete.

Wrong movies, big fella  

And which 'movies' would be the correct ones? Heh...

You know me. I'd rather point you towards a good book! Or Good Book, if you prefer  

But have you considered the possibility that spiritual beings might not be quite so limited as are physical ones? 

I've certainly considered it more than once. I spent a great deal of time contemplating the idea, but I'm sure you noticed the tongue in my cheek when I was questioning the physical abilities of 'angels and demons'. The prompt given was omnipresence and we can see even in the supposed spiritual realm there were limitations and therefore 'rules'.

Sure, but the limitations/rules are tied to "creatureliness", something I specifically mentioned in a previous post. God, however, is not limited by such conditions; his "limitations" are actually characteristics of his attributes. 

Actually, given your epistemological leanings, have you stopped to consider why it is that you struggle with the concept of the potential existence of spiritual beings to begin with? 

I'm not sure I 'struggle' with the concept. I've just drawn the line as to which spiritual beings I believe in... none at this stage, although I... no, actually none. I think it's a fun idea to consider a parallel universe where creatures live unseen alongside ours, but I just don't find it realistic, or logical at all, from where I'm sitting at the moment.

So let's begin with a basic epistemelogical question: why do you (dis)believe what you do, in what you do? What's the fundamental basis for your beliefs (or the lack thereof)? And, just how do you know that your (dis)beliefs are, in fact, "true"? Finally, and speaking as something of a logician myself, how is it that you believe logic supports your contentions?

Personally, I'd simply love to chat with you about the issue and/or the ramifications that derive from it.

Cool. I'd love to hear your analysis of the fruit of my spiritual entity unenlightenment. I've no doubt it would be interesting.

Well, I think it's probably rather simple and boring really. You've never had a truly spiritual experience, in the Christian sense: you've never truly met with God in Christ. Consequently, you find it difficult to personally relate to issues about which Christians have first-hand experience. Having been "suckered" into Revivalism (the "this-is-that" nonsense), and then eventually "spat-out" the other end, you've psychologically "innoculated" yourself against Christianity, although in some respects you fully appreciate that the former is not indicative of the latter. Consequently, you decry as nonsense that which you've never encountered, because of the falsity that you have encountered.

Being imperfect, he'd make a lot of mistakes but would still have a good system and synergy with his horde of dirty demons. Some punishment/reward system, I'm sure.

Well now, would it really matter, one way or the other?

*blink blink* - I'm not sure. Would we have more to fear from a perfectly organised evil management or a flawed conspirital society in supernatural places? I suppose the answer is of no consequence for me given my somewhat ignorant stance on the existance of a fallen Lucifer in the first place.

In a nutshell, but with the following caveat: "ignorance may be bliss, but it ain't eternal". I liken your current situation to the following experience I once had: a group of us had been doing a number of parachute descents one morning. Everyone was having heaps of fun, but no-one was the wiser that one of the blokes had a faulty piece of critically important equipment, one that was absolutely lethal under the right set of circumstances. Everything was fine so long as he didn't have a malfunction and subsequently need to deploy his reserve parachute. Well, it was only after we finished and were de-configuring the rigs for storage that the problem came to light. The chap with the faulty gear knee's buckled when he realised that he had been seriously dicing with death all day--he then went pale as a ghost and had to sit down for a while!

To him, all was going quite "swimmingly" because he was completely unaware that his life was literally hanging by a thread the entire time 

At the moment I KNOW sandflies are omnipresent in this damn town.

Sure, and you know as much because your senses are attuned to recognising them, and the effects that they bring.

Live long and prosper.

I'll certainly try! And might I suggest that you, in turn, do try to keep on living for as long as physically remains within your power!  

Blessings,

Ian

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Re：Who is Satan?

Date Posted：09/03/2008 3:03 AMCopy HTML

Reply to Ian:

...

I'm not sure I 'struggle' with the concept. I've just drawn the line as to which spiritual beings I believe in... none at this stage, although I... no, actually none. I think it's a fun idea to consider a parallel universe where creatures live unseen alongside ours, but I just don't find it realistic, or logical at all, from where I'm sitting at the moment.

So let's begin with a basic epistemelogical question: why do you (dis)believe what you do, in what you do? What's the fundamental basis for your beliefs (or the lack thereof)? And, just how do you know that your (dis)beliefs are, in fact, "true"? Finally, and speaking as something of a logician myself, how is it that you believe logic supports your contentions?

I (dis)believe in Satan and angels in much the same way I disbelieve in aliens, leprechauns, and sightings of the virgin Mary. If I was to muse on why I disbelieve in all the things I do I wouldn't get much time for anything else. How do I believe that Satan, God and aliens are not part of reality? I suppose they're as likely to exist as the Invisible Pink Unicorn (bless her cottons socks) or any other figure from a number of mythologies.

I don't believe I can fly either, despite the efforts I've made of missing the ground when I jump onto it. The reality I've experienced so far doesn't give me any allowance to believe that I will ever fly into the sky through the flapping of my own arms. This is the only logic I have to give, and I don't have any equations to back that up. Similarly, I've never seen anyone healed by a god and I've never experienced even the shadow of what could be categorised as a miracle (something that defies explanation).

So, as far as I know personally, ghosts, satan, devils, angels, and god simply don't exist. I could trust in the writings and testimonies of other people but that would lend itself to also believing in little grey human abducting aliens and grandma's ghost sitting on the end of the bed.

Cool. I'd love to hear your analysis of the fruit of my spiritual entity unenlightenment. I've no doubt it would be interesting.

Well, I think it's probably rather simple and boring really. You've never had a truly spiritual experience, in the Christian sense: you've never truly met with God in Christ. Consequently, you find it difficult to personally relate to issues about which Christians have first-hand experience. Having been "suckered" into Revivalism (the "this-is-that" nonsense), and then eventually "spat-out" the other end, you've psychologically "innoculated" yourself against Christianity, although in some respects you fully appreciate that the former is not indicative of the latter. Consequently, you decry as nonsense that which you've never encountered, because of the falsity that you have encountered.

I didn't find that boring (it was about me, after all - heh). I agree to a point, but I've never experienced the supernatural in any sense. I've never met God and I can't relate to people IF they actually had themselves... which I do seriously doubt. After leaving Revival, I spent a couple of years in a large colourful Baptist church. I was very wide-eyed and 'wowing' at all sorts of stories and supposed miracles. I didn't decry them as nonsense. My wife 'fell over' at the prayer line and 'prophets' successfully prophesied that various members of the 600 strong audience had bad backs. Still naive to it all, I thought it was all quite amazing.

Maybe if I was at Eath5's son's church where gold and diamonds materialised I'd have a different world-view... 

The chap with the faulty gear knee's buckled when he realised that he had been seriously dicing with death all day--he then went pale as a ghost and had to sit down for a while! To him, all was going quite "swimmingly" because he was completely unaware that his life was literally hanging by a thread the entire time.

This story does reak of superstition to me. I'm not one to throw salt over my left shoulder to undo the curse that may happen by the spilling of it. I simply don't believe that spilling salt will cause a fight or an argument that day, unless I don't actually clean up the mess in the first place. In fact, throwing salt over my left shoulder to undo the famous 'superstitious curse' would get me in more trouble. An awkward analogy, but I think you see where I'm getting at. I don't believe my life is dependant on me believing in your particular mythos, but I understand why you do.

Live long and prosper.

I'll certainly try! And might I suggest that you, in turn, do try to keep on living for as long as physically remains within your power!

Well, the new healthy lifestyle I've been on since January 1 is going great guns, so yeah... doing what I can. 

Later.

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Re：Who is Satan?

Date Posted：09/03/2008 6:53 AMCopy HTML

To Mothra

Hello, Pete.

I (dis)believe in Satan and angels in much the same way I disbelieve in aliens, leprechauns, and sightings of the virgin Mary. If I was to muse on why I disbelieve in all the things I do I wouldn't get much time for anything else. How do I believe that Satan, God and aliens are not part of reality? I suppose they're as likely to exist as the Invisible Pink Unicorn (bless her cottons socks) or any other figure from a number of mythologies.

So you've no reasonable grounds for disbelieving in God, other than what it is that you personally think to be 'reasonable' in the first case? To put this another way, it's your personal interpretative grid that defines what is plausible and/or possible, and which has conditioned you not to believe in this instance. Well, for argument's sake, what if your personal interpretative grid is actually wrong? (and we've not even begun to touch on mathematical probability with respect to the existence of God yet, re: your quip about "likelihood of existance") 

I don't believe I can fly either, despite the efforts I've made of missing the ground when I jump onto it. The reality I've experienced so far doesn't give me any allowance to believe that I will ever fly into the sky through the flapping of my own arms. This is the only logic I have to give, and I don't have any equations to back that up. Similarly, I've never seen anyone healed by a god and I've never experienced even the shadow of what could be categorised as a miracle (something that defies explanation).

Well if it helps, I don't believe you can fly either! Now you said, "The reality I've experienced so far...", which is not, in fact, an indication of reality at all, but simply a personal appropriation of the fundamental principle of analogy. Simply because you've not experienced a thing does not make the substance of the afore-mentioned thing, or the reality of the thing, moot. To be frank, your "logic" isn't logical; it's more akin to what I describe as "folk belief". (Not a intended as a put-down, simply an observation)

So, as far as I know personally, ghosts, satan, devils, angels, and god simply don't exist. I could trust in the writings and testimonies of other people but that would lend itself to also believing in little grey human abducting aliens and grandma's ghost sitting on the end of the bed.

Indeed. Again you have, yourself, identified the base quandry in all of this: what you know (or in this case I would offer, what you don't know) limits your sense of what is possible, plausible or real. Now, as anyone tutored in law would attest, the value of testimony is relative to the proven worth of the testator. Consequently, I might not place the same level of credence in the testimony of those who've claimed to have seen little "grey, human-abducting aliens", or the person who claims to have seen "grandma's ghost sitting on the end of the bed", as I might in the testimonal record of Christ's original followers. I'd suggest that one simply can't  reduce all such truth-claims to the same, one-dimensional level. Each must be assessed on its relative merits.

Well, I think it's probably rather simple and boring really. You've never had a truly spiritual experience, in the Christian sense: you've never truly met with God in Christ. Consequently, you find it difficult to personally relate to issues about which Christians have first-hand experience. Having been "suckered" into Revivalism (the "this-is-that" nonsense), and then eventually "spat-out" the other end, you've psychologically "innoculated" yourself against Christianity, although in some respects you fully appreciate that the former is not indicative of the latter. Consequently, you decry as nonsense that which you've never encountered, because of the falsity that you have encountered.

I didn't find that boring (it was about me, after all - heh). I agree to a point, but I've never experienced the supernatural in any sense. I've never met God and I can't relate to people IF they actually had themselves... which I do seriously doubt. After leaving Revival, I spent a couple of years in a large colourful Baptist church. I was very wide-eyed and 'wowing' at all sorts of stories and supposed miracles. I didn't decry them as nonsense. My wife 'fell over' at the prayer line and 'prophets' successfully prophesied that various members of the 600 strong audience had bad backs. Still naive to it all, I thought it was all quite amazing.

Fair enough. But I've no personal experience of the effects of ingesting ground glass as a side dish with my meal either, but I've no doubt that I could, and I've no doubt that doing so would likely prove deleterious to my health! The fact is, as you've stated several times, you've no personal experience of God, or of the supernatural for that matter. Your experience, all of your religious experiences, have been mediated through institutions: formerly Revivalist, latterly Baptist. The fact remains that you alone must ascribe value (or merit) to the relative worth of the testimonies provided by the people you've encountered. Now you do know a little about me. You know a bit of my background, of how I'm "wired", and of some of the things that I've done and that I do. I seriously doubt that I'd present to you as being either a "wide-eyed believer", as a naive and gullible E5-type, or even as a person who is prone to being led astray by nice stories and warm pats on the belly. But what if I was to tell you that I have personally encountered God, and the supernatural? Would my personal testimony be of the same sort as your former religious associates? If so, well and good. But if not...

Maybe if I was at Eath5's son's church where gold and diamonds materialised I'd have a different world-view... 

Perhaps  Although I think we can safely dismiss the possibility that God's taken to such vaudevillian "showmanship" to attract the attention of a very few 

The chap with the faulty gear knee's buckled when he realised that he had been seriously dicing with death all day--he then went pale as a ghost and had to sit down for a while! To him, all was going quite "swimmingly" because he was completely unaware that his life was literally hanging by a thread the entire time.

This story does reak of superstition to me. I'm not one to throw salt over my left shoulder to undo the curse that may happen by the spilling of it. I simply don't believe that spilling salt will cause a fight or an argument that day, unless I don't actually clean up the mess in the first place. In fact, throwing salt over my left shoulder to undo the famous 'superstitious curse' would get me in more trouble. An awkward analogy, but I think you see where I'm getting at. I don't believe my life is dependant on me believing in your particular mythos, but I understand why you do.

I think you may have misunderstood the point of my sharing the parachuting story. But, true enough, your life isn't dependant upon you believing my particular "mythos". However, your afterlife certainly is, and the fact remains that you've no real grounds for painting the matter as simply a "myth", to begin with. 

Blessings,

Ian

email: didaktikon@gmail.com

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Register：27/02/2004 11:21 PM

Re：Who is Satan?

Date Posted：09/03/2008 10:20 AMCopy HTML

Hello, Pete.

Hiya

So you've no reasonable grounds for disbelieving in God, other than what it is that you personally think to be 'reasonable' in the first case? To put this another way, it's your personal interpretative grid that defines what is plausible and/or possible, and which has conditioned you not to believe in this instance.
 
I think I tried to make it as clear as possible that I find it very difficult to dismiss my perception of reality and take on board the idea that an invisible world exists and that a creator is watching and all around us. It's same reasoning that allows me to disbelieve in Hinduism, Mormonism, and Narnia. I've no reasonable grounds for disbelieving the scientologists that believe 75 million years ago Xenu brought billions of people to Earth in huge spaceships. According to what I reasonably know in my interpretative grid, there was no Xenu... no matter what conditioning I've been through.

Well, for argument's sake, what if your personal interpretative grid is actually wrong? (and we've not even begun to touch on mathematical probability with respect to the existence of God yet, re: your quip about "likelihood of existance")

Well, what if yours is wrong and the Scientologists are correct? The 'what if' argument could be said of many denominations that believe doctrines that they believe are intinsically important. What if the Revivalists are right? I believe you have the most comprehensive handle on the bible than anyone I've ever met and the version of reality developed and now perceived by you fits dovetails neatly into it. When I believed in Bible Numerics, I also thought it was the complete and faultless word of god and believe it whole-heartedly. I know that's not the sort of mathematic probability you're alluding to though... 

Simply because you've not experienced a thing does not make the substance of the afore-mentioned thing, or the reality of the thing, moot. To be frank, your "logic" isn't logical; it's more akin to what I describe as "folk belief".

It's the only logic I've got. I haven't experienced an alien abduction either (sorry to labour that point), or the ability to fly unaided (and that one). I concur that inexperience doesn't blot out possibilities, but some things are in fact impossible and I can't explore every avenue of impossibility to weed out the possibilities from the probabilities.

Now, as anyone tutored in law would attest, the value of testimony is relative to the proven worth of the testator. Consequently, I might not place the same level of credence in the testimony of those who've claimed to have seen little "grey, human-abducting aliens", or the person who claims to have seen "grandma's ghost sitting on the end of the bed", as I might in the testimonal record of Christ's original followers. I'd suggest that one simply can't  reduce all such truth-claims to the same, one-dimensional level. Each must be assessed on its relative merits.

My wife saw the apparition and one of my closest friend saw the 'spaceship'. Both people I trust a great deal and know their characters well. I myself saw what can only have been some sort of Tasmanian tiger thingy while camping out in Central Queensland last year. I don't expect people to believe me at my typed word, but those who know and trust me do (or at least they humour me, and the animal wasn't supernatural however). People are good at making up stories for attention though and I've caught out more than one christian who has tried to upsize their testimonies... I know I did, and that may be a character flaw on my part, and I know shouldn't be used to judge others.

The fact is, as you've stated several times, you've no personal experience of God, or of the supernatural for that matter. Your experience, all of your religious experiences, have been mediated through institutions: formerly Revivalist, latterly Baptist. 

Let's not forget the Catholic church I visited once or twice a week for the first 17 years of my life. Nevertheless, you're correct, I've no personal experience of god. The tongues thing certainly had me fooled for a very long time and was a underwhelming show of god's power, as was the 'fall down' antics at some of the Baptist meetings.

Now you do know a little about me. You know a bit of my background, of how I'm "wired", and of some of the things that I've done and that I do. I seriously doubt that I'd present to you as being either a "wide-eyed believer", as a naive and gullible E5-type, or even as a person who is prone to being led astray by nice stories and warm pats on the belly. But what if I was to tell you that I have personally encountered God, and the supernatural? Would my personal testimony be of the same sort as your former religious associates? If so, well and good. But if not...

Yes, I do value your testimony and wouldn't think for a minute to discredit it. Your experiences are your own. Every person I get to know well seems to have an interesting experience story. They do make life very confusing because I myself have nothing to add other than the stupid striped cat/dog thing. The ghost/god/alien/minmin-lights/ufo/healing/oijou-board/astro-travelling stories certainly are perplexing.

Perhaps (regading silver and gold dust sighting at church) Although I think we can safely dismiss the possibility that God's taken to such vaudevillian "showmanship" to attract the attention of a very few 

I definitely agree. I do have a perception of what I would believe god would be like this story definitely doesn't fit it. Certainly doesn't seem his style. My rationalisation of why I can't seem to properly entertain the idea of god's existance has been explored in another thread, and to go over the same ground would be pointless. The Universalist stance makes some sense to me, but then I'm still stuck with a god who may heal someone's flu but stands by while children are raped and torn apart. I do pursue Christian mythology concepts because they're the ones I was born into. I'm sure if I was born in india it'd be different story for me.

I think you may have misunderstood the point of my sharing the parachuting story. But, true enough, your life isn't dependant upon you believing my particular "mythos". However, your afterlife certainly is, and the fact remains that you've no real grounds for painting the matter as simply a "myth", to begin with. 

I see the 'warning' in your parachuting story but I will have to add the prefix and state that I don't believe my afterlife is dependant either on me believing and acting on the theology you espouse. Perhaps it depends on me getting my own testimony of a supernatural experience? Even then, the eternal torment dishing out god would not fit the M.O. of the god I recognise in the Bible. But I bet it hinges on me having a certain amout of faith first before I get the 'experience?' If so, I've been there before. Still, if I do see or feel something supernatural, I've no doubt I'd be making a huge deal out of it and looking further into things.

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Re：Who is Satan?

Date Posted：09/03/2008 11:06 PMCopy HTML

Top of the morning to you, Pete.

Actually I reckon this discussion has been quite productive: (1) we've established and agree on the fact that you've never met the biblical God personally, nor have you experienced anything even remotely 'miraculous'; and (2) that this makes you something of the perfect "poster-boy" for why Revivalism is nothing but bunk and nonsense! After all, years and years within both the RCI and the RF, a houseleader in good standing therein no less, and yet you've never met God personally, nor have you experienced anything even remotely 'miraculous' 

Sadly, many Revivalists often fail to appreciate that their entire "spirituality" is often based on nothing more tangible than a personal "experience" mediated to them by a frail and human institution. This, of course, is poles removed from the biblical concept of salvation: a personal "revelation" of relationship mediated to them by God in Christ. And, whilst there are many, many Revivalists who are no doubt truly Christians, there are also many, many whose experience is more akin to your own.

But what sets you apart, big fella, is your honesty  You are agnostic in the true sense of the word! And such is far better (in my opinion) than is Revivalist presumption to a spiritual relationship with God that doesn't, in fact, exist. But with you, God has, at least, something to work with    

Blessings, my friend.

Ian

email: didaktikon@gmail.com

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Register：27/02/2004 11:21 PM

Re：Who is Satan?

Date Posted：12/03/2008 7:11 AMCopy HTML

To be on more serious note. Just a thought. 
With little observation, we can find which parts of the world there is more trouble, i.e. wars, hunger, corruption, bondage, etc., than other parts and appears those Nations that do not have their foundations based on Jesus Christ, are those that have the most unrest. 

Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Japan, Vietnam, and France?

Sweden has an alleged high suicide rate... but what of the others? They seem to be doing okay... or am I looking uneducated again?

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