It is kind of ironic that, scientific and historical evidence about the date the bible was written conclusively points to the fact that the majority of the books in the new testament ascribed to paul were either written after he died or by another hand/person. The gospels were written some 60 years after Jesus died and the book of acts ascribed to luke is actually a collective group of authors, since he had no way of being in those places at those times some 50 years after his death.

Now tell me, the true church in the bible - is the bible, sincerely, an accurate description of what went on? Look at what's happened in the last 60 years. If our history was to have been passed down orally since then, maybe hitler was a saint that saved Germany from economic depression and the Japanese emporer was countering america's 'threat of invasion' at pearl harbour. Now hang on, they actually taught that in Japanese high schools.

At the end of the day, you really do have to wise up to the 'blind faith' people ask you to put in the bible, their gods/demons/angels/saints and discern what you are actually placing faith in - and the historical, factual evidence it did exist. Otherwise, unfortunately, you are worshipping an idol, something made either of stone or ink and paper.

May the blessed, truly be blessed.

This is very interesting discussion about the bible. I have been reading a lot of Bravebear's thoughts on the bible and have come to the conclsuion that if you place your faith on ANYTHING but God himself, you may be misled. He promised to write His laws on our hearts. He said He would send the Comforter,not a book. Hmmmm.......depending upon anything that man might do is not a good idea. I have often wondered why there are so many ideas regarding the bible, translations, books contained, time of writing, language of writing. One can always find discrepencies if one looks hard enough. I remember an RCI talk about discrepencies in the bible once, and it just confused me more with the stupid answers we were given. Trust in God alone.

I have an Ivan Panin New Testament based on numerics. Seemed to fit RCI doctrine at the time but now it means zip since RCI officially decared numerics was a load of codswallop.

What do you make of that?

(Did I hear Christ is the same yesterday,today and forever?)

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I disregard all that bible numerics stuff now. It's not important anyway...only God is.

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Only God is important... ok... so we should only focus on God and not anything else? No peripheral study? Who is God? What is God? Is that His actual name or just a descriptor? Exodus 3:15 & Jer 16:21 - "my name is Yahweh". Only stuff that pertains to Godliness is important for that is what we must aspire to be..

Bible numerics is not important for you... but it is for me! I love it! If I disregarded everything that was debunked by  the well educated naysayers I wouldn't believe anything. And I would llike to thank everyone, in advance, for not trampling over my love for the mathematical dance that I believe runs through the scriptures. Just because it was an article of faith encouraged by Revival doesn't mean it was completely wrong. If you want to write it off completely then go for it. I think what you' may be saying is that it's not an important life altering issue.

They used to say their were only 2 types of talks - "how to become saved" and "how to stay saved" - both types of talks in the Rev were boring. Of course there was a third miscellanous category which the following seemed to fall into:

• Bible prophesy (Aswan dam stuff, job etc)
• End time prophesy (Revalation Historist perspective only - and fair enough too, in my opinion)
• British Israel (disregard... if you're smart enough to have studied both sides... or you couldn't really care less)
• Bible Numerics (many degrees of complication... some basic examples cannot be denied... some gemetria can be a bit iffy)
• Gap theory, long 7 yom creation theory; localised earth flooding.
• Catholic church bashing (always seemed to be a fun topic)
• All other belief system bashing (Always a great way of building your church up... by putting others down)
• The gifts of the Spirit (9 miraculous gifts completely watered down into a boring Sunday afternoon yakka yakka)
• Satan and demon possession (Satan - someone who doesn't speak in tongues; possession - another word for people with mental illness)
• How to give a testimony (3 minutes long, mention tongues; hope you'll see the Lord when he returns)

I loved these topics because it was a nice exciting change from the usual talk which centred on either tongues or getting to fellowship.

If numerics has been debunked by the RCI then by my current logic dictates that if I believe the opposite to what that crazy mob believes then I'm on the right track... lol. I know RF havent debunked it. Were the Revivals wrong on all their theories and beliefs? Is every fable based on a twisted version of truth. I don't disregard much... heck I'll believe in the Loch Ness moster until someone drains it for me and nothing turns up.

Only God is important. He's a big subject. There are so many strands of study that are important to glorify God and it can be a great advantage to find your particular gifting in varous bible topics. Creation study can reveal the omniscience of God to unbelievers. Prophetic scripture study can highlight how God is working with the nations. Bible archeology can correlate evidence with theory. Numerics can engage the mathematical mind. The bible is a rich and exciting tapestry of many and differing themes and ideas.

All I'm saying is that it's not about proving or disproving but accepting what others believe, letting them go with it, don't poo poo it unless someones life is in danger... and of course, not sweating the small stuff.

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I feel that God has kept the bible pretty much intact over the centuries and has kept the basics in there. That's all I need!

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Yes and thank God that he did or we wouldn't know...

EX 21:20-21 With the Lord's approval, a slave may be beaten to death with no punishment for the perpetrator as long as the slave doesn't die too quickly

NU 15:32-36 A Sabbath breaker (who had gathered sticks for a fire) is stoned to death at the Lord's command.

NU 31:17-18 Moses, following the Lord's command, orders the Israelites to kill all the Midianite male children and "... every woman who has known man ...." (Note: How would it be determined which women had known men? One can only speculate.)

NU 31:31-40 32,000 virgins are taken by the Israelites as booty. Thirty-two are set aside (to be sacrificed?) as a tribute for the Lord.

DT 2:33-34 The Israelites utterly destroy the men, women, and children of Sihon.

DT 3:6 The Israelites utterly destroy the men, women, and children of Og.

JS 6:21-27 With the Lord's approval, Joshua destroys the city of Jericho men, women, and children with the edge of the sword.

DT 21:10-13 With the Lord's approval, the Israelites are allowed to take "beautiful women" from the enemy camp to be their captive wives. If, after sexual relations, the husband has "no delight" in his wife, he can simply let her go.

1SA 18:7 The women sing as they make merry: "Saul has slain his thousands and David his ten thousands."

Revelation:  Any who refuse the Christian religion will be set on fire eternally by God with no way out or room for repentance. 

God is good, God is love. Praise the Lord!!!

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Oh Troy! YOu're just angry with me nowyeh you are...don't deny it! LOL Hey I probably deserved that anyway.

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I will deny it.  I will, I will, I will.

My agression has absolutely nothing to do with you Merry.  I am just spitting out loud.  Sorry if you felt it was aimed at you.  It was triggered by your comments but not aimed at you.  I promise.   I actually think you come across as someone who is doing things her own way with a positive spin and I dig that.

TROY xxx

No matter how much I want to believe bible is the word of God, it just does not add up.

Jesus said, to love your neighbour as yourself.   Why does than the same bible promote butchary and rape, as command of God.  Oh well Mr Bin Laden is justified, he probably is doing what David did.  Or is it that those old testamant heros were using name of God to persue their agenda. 

Did I hear some one say, well its God's command, we ought not to argue.  I hope you will have the same attitude when some stranger comes and rapes your daughter/ wife, and butchers your children.  Good luck.

I am not prepared to give a damn for a book which has such double standards.  No wonder most wars were waged on the mame of religion, who can blame it, when we have such a book which is to be taken as yard stick.  No wonder so called christian nations ruled the world because they were taught to abuse and take away unjustly.  Because this book justifies abuse and control.  Did not we hear time and time again in the Revivalist church that British Israel nations are blessed with fat land, because God gave it to them.  Or should I say they took it by killing innocent and it is OK because this book says. 

Well Revivalist would also tell you that on the day of judgement everybody will be judged and the book of law will be the bible.  Then all those bible heros will be in the heaven along with Mr Bin Laden, I probably will be in the hell because I have not killed or raped as yet, or for a change should I try to go to heaven. 

12 years in the revivalist group and 3 years non church going christian, i never felt spiritually free till last week.  Last week i decided not to carry on with the unjust image of God that bible portrays.  I am free Indeed.

No matter how much I want to believe bible is the word of God, it just does not add up.

I agree.  In fact, once one sees the Bible as a collection of ancinet writings of ancient man (and nothing more) then it begins to make perfect sense.  But keep trying to see it as the inspired 'Word of God' and it just doesn't add up at all.

Jesus said, to love your neighbour as yourself.   Why does than the same bible promote butchary and rape, as command of God.  Oh well Mr Bin Laden is justified, he probably is doing what David did.  Or is it that those old testamant heros were using name of God to persue their agenda. 

Yep.  He too is using an ancient Middle Eastern book only his is not as old.

I am not prepared to give a damn for a book which has such double standards.  No wonder most wars were waged on the mame of religion, who can blame it, when we have such a book which is to be taken as yard stick.  No wonder so called christian nations ruled the world because they were taught to abuse and take away unjustly.  Because this book justifies abuse and control.  Did not we hear time and time again in the Revivalist church that British Israel nations are blessed with fat land, because God gave it to them.  Or should I say they took it by killing innocent and it is OK because this book says. 

Exactly.  Look at the Crusades, the Inquisitions, etc.  One can see how they used the Bible to justify the murder and torture of  "God's enemies" just as God had commanded Israel to do.  God changeth not right?  Look into the history of Calvin and Luther, apparent Protestant heroes and you will see how they too used the Bible to justofy their attrocities.

Well Revivalist would also tell you that on the day of judgement everybody will be judged and the book of law will be the bible.  Then all those bible heros will be in the heaven along with Mr Bin Laden, I probably will be in the hell because I have not killed or raped as yet, or for a change should I try to go to heaven. 

Well, you havent done these things 'in the name of God' so I guess not.  LOL!!!

12 years in the revivalist group and 3 years non church going christian, i never felt spiritually free till last week.  Last week i decided not to carry on with the unjust image of God that bible portrays.  I am free Indeed.

Yes, I too have come to this place.  I feel that it no longer adds up either.  I still believe in a God, but not the God of the Bible.

Some final thoughts.

After coming across this site through my connections with anticult groups, I have been impressed by the comittment, determination and sometimes the bewilderment and thoughts of the posters and certainly to HJ and other site subscribers. I have read with interest the experiences that some ex Revivalists have had and  how their attitudes and beliefs have been affected or influenced by their Rev experience.

For me however, I find that the constant debate regarding validity of the Bible as a fruitless exercise and whether or not the writers were or were not inspired by God etc is relevant. (No more than if one considers a painting to be beautiful whether the artist was inspired or not by the subject) It has its place I believe and for me was instrumental in shaping the way I conduct my life today. Whether accurate, true or not, the writings of Paul, Peter, Timothy and the like have certainly influenced my thinking and certainly the way Jesus lived and dealt with the situations he found himself in has had its effect on me.

I consider the 17 years I spent in the RCI to be a fruitful and interesting experience and an essential stepping stone in my life.There has been good and bad times (mostly good) and I have some very fond memories of my time there. Some of my closest friends are also ex Revs. Even so, I do not blame anyone for my own downfall in the RCI. It was always my own choice to object and question and whether to stay or leave. I left because I could no longer grow spiritually in that environment. Initially my experience there was like a breath of fresh air, but ultimately after I had grown up somewhat, I found it to be restrictive and unsatisfying. As a result, even though severe damage had been done to me and my family and friends during that time, I still had the choice to do something about it.

The heavy reliance of the RCI on the Bible for its 'company procedures manual', in retrospect, is very stupid and nonsensical. As most of us know only too well, the RCI treat it as a law book and in some instances, apply it to the letter with little regard for the spirit of intent.  The law is for the lawbreaker and the protection of the community, not to make someone's life a misery. My conclusion is simply that the oversight and officers are fearful men who lack courage to stand up for what is really important. I have seen it all. It is always an easy option to know that they don't have to make any decisions or rely on their own wisdom because the 'Book' will have the answer. For them, it saves a lot of worry and threat to their conscience and if anyone gets hurt as a result of its application, then that is always the cop out that it is their problem, the oversight are only being obedient to the Word.

My final conclusion from all of this is that there is no right or wrong, just differences. Everyone has a different view on life, mainly grounded in their life experiences. You may find in the scriptures some good examples of how to deal with certain situations, but you may find others in any other inspiriational writings. I still believe that the God of Creation is the only God that is relevant to me, and I do beleive that He is powerful enough to communicate with His creation and indeed He desires to. He may do this anyway He sees fit, for some it is through KJV, others like me, through the Spirit.

Thank you for allowing me to be a part of this forum. I will read it occassionally but I will cease making contributions as I beleive that the things I am saying in my postings may be causing some conflict and difficulty and that is the last thing I want. May God bless you all.

Reply to : BraveBear

Sorry to hear you wont be posting anymore Bravebear. I always found your posts interesting food for thought. The wonderful thing about our walk is that we are individuals in God's sight, not robots. Your experiences that you have shared with us are your experiences, and the way you see things are a result of the experiences you have had. I dont agree with everything I read in this forum, but I have learned, thank God, to be a little more tolerant towards my fellow Christians than I used to be. I hope you will change your mind.  With love,.....RS

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As much as we would like to think the bible's words are completely perfect, it just isn't. Consider the following verse taken from four very popular modern translations. Heck, check out the difference between the KJV and the NKJV!KJV Psalm 10:5 - his ways are always grievousAMP Psalm 10:5 - his ways are grievousNKJVPsalm 10:5 - his ways are always prospering

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H&S

I don't think I agree with you on this. Been doing some reading on the subject myself  The translations differ for quite a few reasons. Sometimes it's a translation philosophy thing, somethimes it's a variant in the Greek and Hebrew manuscripts (copies of copies of copies). The translators make their decisions on what variants to use and how to translate the passages based on a heap of different considerations.

So to say the Bible's at fault is a bit of a stretch.

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So to say the Bible's at fault is a bit of a stretch.

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Did I saw the Bible was at fault or did I suggest there are many words within some translations that are a bit shonky? If I give my car to a mechanic and he replaces the carburretor with a toaster... what's at fault? The car, the mechanic or the toaster? Either way, I've got a car that can't be trusted to drive to Perth in unless it is completely checked over again.

There are many sites that give good lists of bible contradictions... and they make for fun reading.  http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/paul_carlson/nt_contradictions.html but to be fair I'll leave this conversation with a link to some christian rationalists who give a fair go at tying up some loose ends... including the topical, mr popular at the moment, Judas' death.

http://www.rationalchristianity.net/contra7.html

Judas committed suicide by hanging

Judas did not hang himself, but died another way

Matt 27:5 states that Judas "threw the pieces of silver....and he went away and hanged himself."

Acts 1:18 states, "and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his bowels gushed out."

It's rather easy to reconcile these:

1. First, Judas tried to kill himself by hanging himself. And this is not always a successful way. Maybe he tried, and failed (as have many others who have tried to commit suicide by hanging). Then after some time, he threw himself off a cliff and fell upon some jagged rocks. Keep in mind that it is not uncommon for people who commit sucide to have tried it before.

2. Judas could have tied a rope to a tree branch that extended over a cliff (after all, you have to get some space between your feet and the ground to hang yourself). In this situation, the rope/branch could have broke before or after death, and Judas plummeted to the ground and landed on some jagged rocks.

Certainly, these explanations are plausible, thus a contradiction has not been established.

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Certainly, these explanations are plausible, thus a contradiction has not been established.

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Reply to : HolyandSinfulCertainly, these explanations are plausible, thus a contradiction has not been established.Bullshit. It's a contradiction. Like MANY MANY others in the Bible there are of course ways to explain it away if you think long and hard.

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Oh yeah... it's a blantant contradiction alright, and if ya try to reason it out and add two and three together to get four you get a convoluted reasoning that just reeks of desperation and naivety. *Kinda sorta how doctrines are developed!!! ie: TONGUES (as a perchance example)

• "For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men, but to God" (I Cor 14:2).
• When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language

• Paul makes it all the more evident that he could not speak the tongues of angels by referring to them as "words which man is not permitted to speak" (II Cor 12:4).
• Though I speak with the tongues of angels and men

As you say J, there are ways to explain it away if you think long and hard and don't want to ever admit to being in error.