Some current revival thoughts

Title: Some current revival thoughts
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Date Posted：09/04/2010 3:35 PMCopy HTML

Hi Everyone,

I am in RF and here are my current thoughts;

I have seen the Lord turn many lives around for the better while in RF, many signs and wonders which have been the handiwork of God himself. Lately I have seen some posts which are either pro/against RF without much scripture used. What a church preaches and practices must be measured against the bible, not our own standards.  IMO, If the church doesn't practice the bible teaching either due to incorrect doctrine, or has a culture that inhibits correct practice (even if the doctrine is good) the result will be the same - a negative one.

As I have grown to know the Lord, I experience some things about RF which is not so good, and I believe that anything which is not truth will just hinder the truth.

This is my top three examples:1) Tithing. I am not going to go into this but the bible doesn't require NT believers to give a mandatory 10%. Yet from the platform every sunday I hear "tithes and offerings". Er, why? Just recently I have heard talks where scripture used to justify tithing is used out of context. The modern day NT tithing is just a man made doctrine like any other garbage. Not instructed from the bible. No excuse here. I have been in talks where good old malachi 3 is used to give the flock a good tithing prod. There's lots of mums and dads who tithe down to the dollar. And they may feel guilty if they were not to do it. Here you have a situation where a large percentage of members may be feeling guilty about something which isn't even instructed from the bible, let alone the fact they are hindered from reaching that wonderful place of rest and liberty which is in Christ. This is terrible.

2)  No dancing at weddings. Such rules which are way over the top and I have never worked out the benefit of them, eg no dancing (bride and groom) at weddings. How is it ungodly if the bride and groom have a dance? This is really strange.

3) Fornicators are still 'encouraged' to marry. This one is VERY disturbing, I have never understood this one either, once again it's clearly not instructed from the bible. (For good reason IMO) If fornicators were justified in the sight of the Lord by marrying them, then we are back under a law situation. (Our own law in fact)

Now considering the above, when I raise a discussion about these issues with some people in RF, they give me the usual response:

1)    I am seen as one 'having an issue' or gone 'off track' when in fact all I want to do is have an adult discussion about what the bible says.

2)    It is actually hard to discuss what the bible says with some people, because many do not read their bibles!, but simply get spoon fed from the platform. eg I asked one lady about tithing and I got a series of catch phrases instead of scripture. She didn't mention one scripture. Some in RF would say i am making a mountain from small issues. Or that I have a root of bitterness, but this is not the case. In fact it's about people i want to bring to Christ. Consider the following:

1) Tithing. What scriptures will I use to show new people when they ask about tithing? I can show them where the lord requires giving, but as for 10%, nothing there.

2) Weird rules such as no dancing at weddings. How am I going to explain this to new people?

3) making fornicators marry? What scriptures will I use to show new people when they ask about this? how will I explain this? The reason I have posted is because the RF is hurting numbers wise in some fellowships, mainly the east coast, and so the flavour of the month is outreaching/witnessing etc.

You are wondering why we are hurting....But you say it yourselves RF people.."Don't forget your first love""They preach another gospel""Repent and do the first works"I have an idea, how about we wake up. How about instead of starting "Operation XXXX"  we just actually do what the bible says...with nothing on top thanks - such as weird rules that make us look like wackos in front of any educated people, and thus turn potential new people away.

I also think we need to lose our pride. I know some people who know the RF may have some areas not right, yet they are too proud to admit it. As per example below:

Q.    "Making fornicators marry is not scriptural"
A.    "You have a root of bitterness"?????

Lastly, if someone can correct me on anything, with scripture, (in context thanks) then I will gladly eat humble pie....mmmm

Anon

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Re：Some current revival thoughts

Date Posted：09/04/2010 8:35 PMCopy HTML

Hi Guest,

You ask some interesting questions. I'd suggest from a biblical point of view that the questionable fruit is a product of questionable seed, with the key problematic seed being the RF "salvation message". In *effect* it promotes the need to speak in tongues, rather than the gospel of Jesus Christ. I know that's not how it's worded, but it *is* the effect.

I'd suggest you click through to the material at pleaseconsider.info (duplicated in the "Please Consider" room) for some excellent "scripture in context" stuff. I'd suggest you also look at the material in the "Didaktikon archives" room. 

Then if you're still interested, email the author of that material. To paraphrase the Monty Python crew, he's not the messiah but he is an apt and well qualified bible teacher.

You flag the issue of "another gospel" yourself. IMO you need to resolve that as your first priority, unless there's more obvious harm you need to escape from. (Paul's letter to the Galatians notes serious implications, as I'm sure you realise!)

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Re：Some current revival thoughts

Date Posted：09/04/2010 10:22 PMCopy HTML

Hi Guest, I think Talmid has given some great advise. I was in the same position as you when in grc. It took me a while to see that the tongues only salvation message was also more than flawed. Unfortunetly the foundation of Revival Churches is not solid, so how can a solid Church be built on them? Its a mix of an AOG splinter group, British Isreal and Pyramidology which the last 2 are just silly. Its amazing to me how when I was in grc RF etc where all seen as evil backsliden places lower than the unsaved world or the orthodox Christian Church, yet from what information I have picked up on here I cant find one difference except the leaders of each dont like each other! We had the same terminology etc. and the silly no dancing at weddings, also ties must be worn by men at meetings. I'd love to know where you will find that in the Bible! . It seems to me from your post that you love the Lord and are looking to Jesus for Salvation. You also have an open mind. I think you are in the wrong place, as I was myself a few years ago. What I did was distance myself a little from "The Assembly" and spent much time in prayer with my Bible handy. The Lord opened my eyes and I now fellowship in a very good Christian Church where I dont have questions bugging me all the time about why do we do this and that. Everything now makes sense and fits together. Best wishes to you on your journey.

¡uıɐƃɐ ʎɐqǝ ɯoɹɟ pɹɐoqʎǝʞ ɐ ƃuıʎnq ɹǝʌǝu

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Re：Some current revival thoughts

Date Posted：10/04/2010 12:55 AMCopy HTML

Hi Guest, it is nice to hear from you on this forum. You have raised some good valid questions, and if it wasn’t so tragic, the ‘root of bitterness’ comment would be laughable. My husband was just told yesterday he has a root of bitterness because we left, though no one has sat down and listened to why we went (obviously because we are ‘shunned’ now)

Anyway, the previous posters have suggested that the tongues doctrine may be wrong in the RF. This is a tough one to think about.  I was in RF for about 15 years or so, and was deeply uncomfortable in there the whole time. However, I would never leave because I was convinced of the tongues doctrine. I read it over and over again to try and see that you don’t have to ‘speak in tongues to be saved’ but to me it seemed watertight.

A couple of years after we had left, we felt we couldn’t go to any other churches because their doctrine would be ‘another gospel’  One day I looked at what we were doing. There was me, my husband, and a couple in their 70’s in our lounge room having a meeting. We had to keep ourselves separate because of the doctrine. We couldn’t go back to RF, because the treatment we got was soul destroying. (another  very long story, but believe me, we were the most well behaved, toe the line rfers that there existed) We couldn’t go to the various RF offshoots, because some of the beliefs and behaviours there were so bizarre (intercessors, hearing voices of god)

Anyway, this resulted in us being in Adelaide with these two people. That was my first thought – something is wrong here. 
My next step was to try out various churches and ask about the tongues doctrine, but no one could dissuade me. (pretty scary, as hellfire is waiting if you leave this doctrine, I thought) I finally went on the Please Consider site,  and it is pretty long winded, but my release was found in one sentence. I think it was something about ‘do all speak in tongues’ (it  was about 5 years ago now, so my memory not that good) Anyway that one little word opened my eyes to the possibility the tongues doctrine might be wrong. 

Its all probably quite scary  for you now, but just keep an open mind, and realize that a loving god would know you were genuine in your concerns, and would never forsake you for not finding your way properly through the maize of confusion there can be.

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Re：Some current revival thoughts

Date Posted：10/04/2010 1:07 AMCopy HTML

Reply to big_girl 

Please let me know if I'm wrong but I've read your comments here and it looks like you don't even believe in Jesus anymore. So what are you now an atheist?

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Re：Some current revival thoughts

Date Posted：10/04/2010 2:12 AMCopy HTML

Hi Guests,

Yes, absolutely , it was Ians articles that helped me out of the 
doctrine. I told him that.

And yes, maybe I am stupid and wrong, but i said before that I am very 
happy that you are all accepting christians in other churches.  Sorry I 
generalized.

But I stand by the things I said about Ian questioning whether people in AOG type churches were actually christians. As I said before, the facts of the convos are in the chat box history.

And I am probably an agnostic. I have an open mind, just not convinced 
at anything at the moment.

That probably answers all the questions here!!

Regards, Big girl

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Re：Some current revival thoughts

Date Posted：10/04/2010 2:59 AMCopy HTML

Reply to big_girl 

Dear Guest,

Well, if this is that important to you, you will have to ask the owner of this chat box to give you the transcripts. I can't say when, maybe a year ago? 

How much dosh??

Given your recent track record what's important to me is seeing proof that backs up your claims. You generalized before and were proven wrong so what's to say your not generalizing now and just as wrong?

Name your price.

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Re：Some current revival thoughts

Date Posted：10/04/2010 3:44 AMCopy HTML

Hi Guest,

I am not into betting actually!

This is not the convo I mean. I wasn't there then. I am talking about the ones I was involved in with ian, and also Urchin.

However, I will still state that christians will call each other non christians, and of course they all say they are basing it on scripture, and what Jesus says. They all say that.

"
" I get to assess whether they are Christian or 
not 
based on Scripture. Ian"

THe Revs actually say the same when they say others are preaching another gospel!

Regards, big girl

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Re：Some current revival thoughts

Date Posted：10/04/2010 7:18 AMCopy HTML

Hi Mr Guest

If you want to remain within RF, then you must stop asking questions!

All 4 groups featured on this website make full use of the mind-numbing concept - if you notice a problem, then you are a problem.

The RF coercing of people into marriage (and I know of several who will tell this story) you have quite rightly recognised as unbiblical nonsense. And if they are trying now to change the policy, they will pretend it was always like this. No recognition of sin and error will be made.

You may, as I once did, attempt to rationalise and reason away the unbiblical and nonsensical RF rules and "guidelines". But this will not make you free, for all it does is temporarily elevate and improve the condition of the prison.

As a "pastor" in England once told my brother: "if anybody is a problem, I get rid of them".

Joy!!

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Re：Some current revival thoughts

Date Posted：10/04/2010 11:20 AMCopy HTML

Reply to is_Aimoo_Guest 

galien: are pentecostals christians?

          [14 Sep 09 23:06:46]

Didaktikon: Galien. Some are. Ian

          [14 Sep 09 23:07:29]

Didaktikon: Galien. Just as some in the RCI, the RF, the GRC and the CAI
 are Christians. Ian

          [14 Sep 09 23:07:49]

galien: do you decide which ones are and whichones arent?

          [14 Sep 09 23:07:43]

Didaktikon: Galien. I get to assess whether they are Christian or not 
based on Scripture. Ian

          [14 Sep 09 23:08:09]

galien: you really are into that assessing thing arent you?

          [14 Sep 09 23:09:46]

Didaktikon: Galien. Yes, given that such is one of my roles as a 
Christian teacher :glad: Ian

          [14 Sep 09 23:10:33]

From a Christian point of view, that's a pretty scary thing for Ian to say isn't it?  He can assess/determine someone's eternal destiny?  Wow! That's a big claim, even for Ian.  I know from my time in Church that to say this kind of thing was a bit of a 'no-no'. 

However, if he's talking about the denomination/sect in general and not individuals then it's more commonly accepted to believe this to be possible I s'pose. 

But the context here seems to be about individuals, not groups.

From a non-believer's point of view it seems to be very much an 'us and them' kind of mentality, more hard-line than more moderate, 'mainstream believers' tend to accept.

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Re：Some current revival thoughts

Date Posted：10/04/2010 11:40 AMCopy HTML

Hi all

I've had to set the forum so that you need to sign in before you can post. It's too confusing when everyone posts under 'guest' to keep any flow in the discussion, so sign in or join up to post. Easy.

Also, when replying to a post, and you use the 'quote and reply' function, please don't quote the entire article, as it just repeats large blocks of text. If you aren't quoting any particular text simply click 'reply'. You'll note that I've been editing some of the posts in this thread, but only the repeated text.

Also also, I know in the past that Ian hasn't been very happy with snippets of his chatbox conversations being used in the forum. Taking them out of the context of the string of temporary posts that they were used in could lead to misinterpretation. Also also also, he's not here to defend his views or add to them. IF he's reading this thread, contacts me, and would like his reprinted posts deleted, I will.

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Re：Some current revival thoughts

Date Posted：10/04/2010 12:26 PMCopy HTML

Hi Everyone, I am in RF and here are my current thoughts;

Howdy Anon. Nice to hear from one on the inside that isn't puffing his/her chest out.

I
 have seen the Lord turn many lives around for the better while in RF, 
many signs and wonders which have been the handiwork of God 
himself. 

In my 17 years in Revival I also saw people who testified to leading what they considered to be better lives... but ofttimes that was interpretive and relative... and then controlled and conditioned. And to play the devil's advocate at your signs and wonders, at risk of offense to you, I put it that 'tongues' are a cheap unimpressive sign and the wonders are found anywhere else, just as wondrously.

Lately I have seen some posts which are either pro/against RF 
without much scripture used.  What a church preaches and practices must 
be measured against the bible, not our own standards.  IMO, If the 
church doesn't practice the bible teaching either due to incorrect 
doctrine, or has a culture that inhibits correct practice (even if the 
doctrine is good) the result will be the same - a negative one.

Omigosh, if you want to see some scripture heavy posts check out these parts of the forum: Please Consider and The Didakiton Archives. Have a hot coffee and comprehensive dictionary handy. It's amazing what you can find when you speak to someone who actually has formal training in theology and much experience with the history and teaching of Revival doctrine. Feel free and contact one of the main authors of those threads at didaktikon@gmail.com

As
 I have grown to know the Lord, I experience some things about RF which 
is not so good, and I believe that anything which is not truth will just
 hinder the truth.

You better believe it, when the building is full of so much junk you have to wonder what the base is built of. There's puh-lenty of stuff the Revivals have packed in around their supposed truth and here's some of the fruit of it.

1. There's the End-Time prophesies which had many people scared and convinced. Revival pastors have changed their interpretation of Armegeddon with every Middle Eastern skirmish. The generation after 1917 story has had Jesus return set at 1987 (at the most 1997) to 120 years (2027) as told by a mister (pastor) Brad Smith, and he had the Bible Numerics gemetria mapped out to validify his theories. Pillars of smoke, Russians? Chinese? Sigh at the end is nigh.

2. Remember the pyramids? It seems every modern day faux-Christian cult/sect seems to espouse having the secret wisdom as to why they were built. Honestly, we had regular slide-shows about these things. The Revival churches... keepers of the keys to Egypt. Please.

3. British Israel. Nuff said. OMG... Naive much? Gullible a lot? Completely oblivious to history to the nth degree? Yup.

4. Bible Numerics... a personal favourite of mine, but still. OMG

5. Tithing. I remember people gloating, in their testimonies, that they tithed more than ten percent, because they wanted more money. tithing sucked. Surely only the rich members of the assemblies gave away money they could survive without... I know heaps of charities that could have done better with it though.

6. Forced marriages. DING DING! Yep, I was coerced into marrying at the ripe age of 17. I fooled around with another 17 year old... got found out, and were told to get married by Brad Smith, that year. We weren't allowed to see each other unchaperoned during the brief engagement. We had very unhappy but powerless, and equally brainwashed parents who could do nothing to stop it.

7. Dancing huh? I was pretty happy about the no dancing rule.

8. Ex-communication separation policy... don't get me wrong, I think it's great that they put people 'out' of fellowship, but some people have battered-wife syndrome and like beached whales come clamoring back to the shore.

9. The third person of the Holy Spirit is an it: Or something like that.

10. Alcohol and the forbidding of it. Telling people what they can and can't drink... Serious scripture twisting here. Drunkedness is frowned upon biblically speaking, but not actualy drinking, in moderation. This enforced abstinence is another control method, and deprives people to think for themselves. It's pretty separative and proud too, imo.

11. Fasting - mandatory and compulsory fasts, and the guilt trip for not attending the Saturday session.

12. Tongues and everything to do with ecstatic speech and the supposed miraculous nature of it, and pretty much the whole salvation doctrine that goes with it, but that's a whole other kettle of fish elsewhere on the forum.

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Re：Some current revival thoughts

Date Posted：10/04/2010 8:23 PMCopy HTML

Hi Troy,

>>From a Christian point of view, that's a pretty scary thing for Ian to say isn't it?  He can assess/determine someone's eternal destiny?  Wow! That's a big claim, even for Ian.

I'm not going to wade into this morass any further than to give the following perspective for public consideration, since it doesn't seem to have got a guernsey thus far. (Those who don't know Ian should realise that they can always ask him via a civilly worded email.)

I don't believe that's what he meant at all. When I read Ian's material in its context at the time, I took it to mean that he was qualified to see how well a person's behaviour lined up with the bible's expectations for someone who claimed to be a Xian. The matter of "determining someone's eternal destiny" remained a matter for God. I'm pretty sure Ian even said so during those weeks. I'm confident it's his theology. This of course is common stuff for Xians who guide other Xians.

... FWIW, I'm sick of hearing "Ian this", "Ian that"

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Re：Some current revival thoughts

Date Posted：10/04/2010 10:42 PMCopy HTML

Just for the record, I am going to defend myself against "Guest" He said this about my posts 

""You've said some pretty dumb things in the last couple of days about 
Christians that didn't pan out when the facts were checked and you've 
said some pretty dumb things about Ian that probably won't pan out if 
the facts were checked either."

My main two points were that most christians believe that non christians are going to hell. (true)

My second point was that I was disappointed the way that christians are apt calling other christians non christians.  THis fact is true. (an example of this was cut and pasted  by Brolga)  The 'two and two' I put together were that they were being 'consigned to hell' Two and two make four here.

However, I will try to be more considerate, and not use terms like 'consigned to hell'

All I am saying is, that the comments above by "Guest" were aggressive, a put down, and confrontational. 
We can all disagree, but please do it in a way that genders further conversation and exploration of the issue at hand. 

Regards, big girl

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Re：Some current revival thoughts

Date Posted：11/04/2010 2:27 AMCopy HTML

Reply to Talmid 

I agree with the Moderator that Ian's comments may well be out of context so I'm happy to leave this topic alone too. There will be no public flogging today.  :)

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Re：Some current revival thoughts

Date Posted：30/05/2010 8:42 AMCopy HTML

Reply to Blessedbeyondmeasure.

Hi Bbm,

I wish you well on your return to RF.  Things have certainly become more relaxed than they were in past times.

Although I cannot see dancing becoming an accepted part of Revival assembly weddings, private weddings could be different, even if the majority of those present were RFers.

The reason for not allowing dancing is based on the Revivalist interpretation on 1 Corinthians 7 : 1  "It is good for a man not to touch a woman."  As one pastor put it in a talk to youth and parents some years ago "the touching of hands can make you tingle" re-enforcing  the reason for the strict adherence to this scripture.

May God continue to bless you all beyond measure.

Sincerely

Epi

ps   
I must add that I do disagree with the doctrine.

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Re：Some current revival thoughts

Date Posted：30/05/2010 11:42 AMCopy HTML

Hi Bbm,

The pastor concerned was generalising within the context of his talk, mainly for the benefit of the young ones there.  

Were you not aware of this scripture being used to outlaw dancing?   Yes it is the wrong interpretation, however it was probably used way back in early days of RCI to serve the purpose of forbidding dancing because dancing involved touching and it has conveniently remained in place without question.  

In all my years as a Revivalist that has always been quoted as the reason for no dancing.

God Bless.

Epios

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Re：Some current revival thoughts

Date Posted：31/05/2010 7:09 PMCopy HTML

Hi Anon Guest,

Your first post (9/4/2010) reads "I am in RF and here are my current thoughts."

Your post of yesterday (31/5/2010) reads "Hi all, I started this topic."   Later you say  "currently I attend a different church" so I take it that during this time you have left RF and now "attend a church which preaches the same doctrine" but which is a church which RFers don't want to you don't want to have a bar of.

The tongues doctrine is elitist.  Not only do RF look down their noses at "mainline" churches (which preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ) but toward other churches preaching the same doctrine.  Even Revival groups from the same family tree are antaganistic toward each other.  They come across another group who even preach the same doctrine and never the twain shall meet.

Now I might be treading on thin ice here but have you considered that the doctrine just might be flawed?  You see Paul preached the Good News about Jesus and the resurrection.   Acts 17 : 18.  

The keeper of the prison in Acts 16 : 29-35 fell down before Paul and Silas and asked "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" And they said "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved and thy house(hold)......."

Acts 4 : 12  "Nor is there salvation in any other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."

Romans 10 : 9-11 "That if you shall confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead you shall be saved.  For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation......"

Galations 1 is worth re-reading.

It is through Jesus' death on the cross that we are saved.  He bought our salvation by this supreme act.  His life, death and resurrection is the the Good News/the Gospel which the apostles preached and people believed.   Believing in Jesus and his saving grace is absolute proof that we have the Holy Spirit.   This belief is what Revival Churches reject. Although one can  believe with all the heart, soul, mind, strength  it's not enough for Revival.  A person must prove to a Revival pastor in the tank, line or seekers room that a little stammer in an unknown tongue is present to then be pronounced saved.

The Holy Spirit was never the Saviour.  Jesus said he would send the Paraclete/Advocate to glorify him, to bear witness of him, to teach and bring all he said to our understanding, to convict of right and wrong.  He is comforter, counsellor, supporter, helper, strengthener, encourager, adviser, ally, intercessor, giver of gifts (one of which is tongues) producer of fruit, temple builder, energiser and here's one for TLY, intensifier.  All this and more is attributed to the Holy Spirit.  Salvation is already ours through Jesus.

Pentecost was an amazing outpouring of the Holy Spirit with wind, fire and then the overwhelming of the group in the upper room to speak and preach in languages which could be understood.  This was followed in time by the instant outpouring on other groups, those in Samaria, the Gentile group (surprising the other disciples) and then some time later the 12 in Ephesus.  

There is really not much more said on tongues except when Paul addressed some problems relating to the use/misuse of unknown tongues in the Corinthian Church.  What he laid down for the Corinthian Church did not seem to be the blueprint for others as there is no further mention in his other epistles.

Just expressing a few of my thoughts.

God Bless

Epios

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Re：Some current revival thoughts

Date Posted：01/06/2010 7:46 PMCopy HTML

Hi I read you folk talking about tithing,  
This is a bit long 7 pages so wont copy it over, but have a look 

http://www.tithingtruth.com/index.aspx

 And has a few other things that are pertinent, but basically says that 

THIS again CANNOT LEGITIMATELY BE ARGUED TO CONSTITUTE A PRE-MOSAIC SPIRITUAL PRINCIPLE AND IT IS NOT RECORDED THAT THIS WAS EVER DONE AGAIN

See what you think it may help, it helped me understand the hypocrisy surrounding the grab for money on a Sunday. Some churches I have visited really play up the 10% quite vigorously and were quite shocking about it.

Im_Out

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Re：Some current revival thoughts

Date Posted：01/06/2010 10:40 PMCopy HTML

Thithing was a sort of tax to support the levites who were not allowed to own lands etc they were the public servants of the day not only the priesthood,it was also used to to support the widows and orphans.
Malachi 3 is a rebuke to the levites for not paying their share.Thithing is old testament LAW.

Ex_Member
Rank： Score：0 Posts：0 From：Unknown Register：21/09/2018 12:36 AM	Date Posted：09/04/2010 3:35 PMCopy HTML Hi Everyone, I am in RF and here are my current thoughts; I have seen the Lord turn many lives around for the better while in RF, many signs and wonders which have been the handiwork of God himself. Lately I have seen some posts which are either pro/against RF without much scripture used. What a church preaches and practices must be measured against the bible, not our own standards. IMO, If the church doesn't practice the bible teaching either due to incorrect doctrine, or has a culture that inhibits correct practice (even if the doctrine is good) the result will be the same - a negative one. As I have grown to know the Lord, I experience some things about RF which is not so good, and I believe that anything which is not truth will just hinder the truth. This is my top three examples:1) Tithing. I am not going to go into this but the bible doesn't require NT believers to give a mandatory 10%. Yet from the platform every sunday I hear "tithes and offerings". Er, why? Just recently I have heard talks where scripture used to justify tithing is used out of context. The modern day NT tithing is just a man made doctrine like any other garbage. Not instructed from the bible. No excuse here. I have been in talks where good old malachi 3 is used to give the flock a good tithing prod. There's lots of mums and dads who tithe down to the dollar. And they may feel guilty if they were not to do it. Here you have a situation where a large percentage of members may be feeling guilty about something which isn't even instructed from the bible, let alone the fact they are hindered from reaching that wonderful place of rest and liberty which is in Christ. This is terrible. 2) No dancing at weddings. Such rules which are way over the top and I have never worked out the benefit of them, eg no dancing (bride and groom) at weddings. How is it ungodly if the bride and groom have a dance? This is really strange. 3) Fornicators are still 'encouraged' to marry. This one is VERY disturbing, I have never understood this one either, once again it's clearly not instructed from the bible. (For good reason IMO) If fornicators were justified in the sight of the Lord by marrying them, then we are back under a law situation. (Our own law in fact) Now considering the above, when I raise a discussion about these issues with some people in RF, they give me the usual response: 1) I am seen as one 'having an issue' or gone 'off track' when in fact all I want to do is have an adult discussion about what the bible says. 2) It is actually hard to discuss what the bible says with some people, because many do not read their bibles!, but simply get spoon fed from the platform. eg I asked one lady about tithing and I got a series of catch phrases instead of scripture. She didn't mention one scripture. Some in RF would say i am making a mountain from small issues. Or that I have a root of bitterness, but this is not the case. In fact it's about people i want to bring to Christ. Consider the following: 1) Tithing. What scriptures will I use to show new people when they ask about tithing? I can show them where the lord requires giving, but as for 10%, nothing there. 2) Weird rules such as no dancing at weddings. How am I going to explain this to new people? 3) making fornicators marry? What scriptures will I use to show new people when they ask about this? how will I explain this? The reason I have posted is because the RF is hurting numbers wise in some fellowships, mainly the east coast, and so the flavour of the month is outreaching/witnessing etc. You are wondering why we are hurting....But you say it yourselves RF people.."Don't forget your first love""They preach another gospel""Repent and do the first works"I have an idea, how about we wake up. How about instead of starting "Operation XXXX" we just actually do what the bible says...with nothing on top thanks - such as weird rules that make us look like wackos in front of any educated people, and thus turn potential new people away. I also think we need to lose our pride. I know some people who know the RF may have some areas not right, yet they are too proud to admit it. As per example below: Q. "Making fornicators marry is not scriptural" A. "You have a root of bitterness"????? Lastly, if someone can correct me on anything, with scripture, (in context thanks) then I will gladly eat humble pie....mmmm Anon
Talmid	Share to: #1
Rank：Regular Rookier Score：5980 Posts：293 From：Australia Register：21/04/2008 10:04 PM	Re：Some current revival thoughts Date Posted：09/04/2010 8:35 PMCopy HTML Hi Guest, You ask some interesting questions. I'd suggest from a biblical point of view that the questionable fruit is a product of questionable seed, with the key problematic seed being the RF "salvation message". In effect it promotes the need to speak in tongues, rather than the gospel of Jesus Christ. I know that's not how it's worded, but it is the effect. I'd suggest you click through to the material at pleaseconsider.info (duplicated in the "Please Consider" room) for some excellent "scripture in context" stuff. I'd suggest you also look at the material in the "Didaktikon archives" room. Then if you're still interested, email the author of that material. To paraphrase the Monty Python crew, he's not the messiah but he is an apt and well qualified bible teacher. You flag the issue of "another gospel" yourself. IMO you need to resolve that as your first priority, unless there's more obvious harm you need to escape from. (Paul's letter to the Galatians notes serious implications, as I'm sure you realise!) The evidence for Mann-made global warming is unequivocal.
prezy	Share to: #2
Rank：Poster Venti II Score：7160 Posts：343 From：Scotland Register：06/02/2007 11:02 AM	Re：Some current revival thoughts Date Posted：09/04/2010 10:22 PMCopy HTML Hi Guest, I think Talmid has given some great advise. I was in the same position as you when in grc. It took me a while to see that the tongues only salvation message was also more than flawed. Unfortunetly the foundation of Revival Churches is not solid, so how can a solid Church be built on them? Its a mix of an AOG splinter group, British Isreal and Pyramidology which the last 2 are just silly. Its amazing to me how when I was in grc RF etc where all seen as evil backsliden places lower than the unsaved world or the orthodox Christian Church, yet from what information I have picked up on here I cant find one difference except the leaders of each dont like each other! We had the same terminology etc. and the silly no dancing at weddings, also ties must be worn by men at meetings. I'd love to know where you will find that in the Bible! . It seems to me from your post that you love the Lord and are looking to Jesus for Salvation. You also have an open mind. I think you are in the wrong place, as I was myself a few years ago. What I did was distance myself a little from "The Assembly" and spent much time in prayer with my Bible handy. The Lord opened my eyes and I now fellowship in a very good Christian Church where I dont have questions bugging me all the time about why do we do this and that. Everything now makes sense and fits together. Best wishes to you on your journey. ¡uıɐƃɐ ʎɐqǝ ɯoɹɟ pɹɐoqʎǝʞ ɐ ƃuıʎnq ɹǝʌǝu
big_girl	Share to: #3
Rank： Score：0 Posts：0 From：Australia Register：02/07/2009 10:12 AM	Re：Some current revival thoughts Date Posted：10/04/2010 12:55 AMCopy HTML Hi Guest, it is nice to hear from you on this forum. You have raised some good valid questions, and if it wasn’t so tragic, the ‘root of bitterness’ comment would be laughable. My husband was just told yesterday he has a root of bitterness because we left, though no one has sat down and listened to why we went (obviously because we are ‘shunned’ now) Anyway, the previous posters have suggested that the tongues doctrine may be wrong in the RF. This is a tough one to think about. I was in RF for about 15 years or so, and was deeply uncomfortable in there the whole time. However, I would never leave because I was convinced of the tongues doctrine. I read it over and over again to try and see that you don’t have to ‘speak in tongues to be saved’ but to me it seemed watertight. A couple of years after we had left, we felt we couldn’t go to any other churches because their doctrine would be ‘another gospel’ One day I looked at what we were doing. There was me, my husband, and a couple in their 70’s in our lounge room having a meeting. We had to keep ourselves separate because of the doctrine. We couldn’t go back to RF, because the treatment we got was soul destroying. (another very long story, but believe me, we were the most well behaved, toe the line rfers that there existed) We couldn’t go to the various RF offshoots, because some of the beliefs and behaviours there were so bizarre (intercessors, hearing voices of god) Anyway, this resulted in us being in Adelaide with these two people. That was my first thought – something is wrong here. My next step was to try out various churches and ask about the tongues doctrine, but no one could dissuade me. (pretty scary, as hellfire is waiting if you leave this doctrine, I thought) I finally went on the Please Consider site, and it is pretty long winded, but my release was found in one sentence. I think it was something about ‘do all speak in tongues’ (it was about 5 years ago now, so my memory not that good) Anyway that one little word opened my eyes to the possibility the tongues doctrine might be wrong. Its all probably quite scary for you now, but just keep an open mind, and realize that a loving god would know you were genuine in your concerns, and would never forsake you for not finding your way properly through the maize of confusion there can be.
Ex_Member	Share to: #4
Rank： Score：0 Posts：0 From：Unknown Register：21/09/2018 12:36 AM	Re：Some current revival thoughts Date Posted：10/04/2010 1:07 AMCopy HTML Reply to big_girl Please let me know if I'm wrong but I've read your comments here and it looks like you don't even believe in Jesus anymore. So what are you now an atheist?
big_girl	Share to: #5
Rank： Score：0 Posts：0 From：Australia Register：02/07/2009 10:12 AM	Re：Some current revival thoughts Date Posted：10/04/2010 2:12 AMCopy HTML Hi Guests, Yes, absolutely , it was Ians articles that helped me out of the doctrine. I told him that. And yes, maybe I am stupid and wrong, but i said before that I am very happy that you are all accepting christians in other churches. Sorry I generalized. But I stand by the things I said about Ian questioning whether people in AOG type churches were actually christians. As I said before, the facts of the convos are in the chat box history. And I am probably an agnostic. I have an open mind, just not convinced at anything at the moment. That probably answers all the questions here!! Regards, Big girl
Ex_Member	Share to: #6
Rank： Score：0 Posts：0 From：Unknown Register：21/09/2018 12:36 AM	Re：Some current revival thoughts Date Posted：10/04/2010 2:59 AMCopy HTML Reply to big_girl Dear Guest, Well, if this is that important to you, you will have to ask the owner of this chat box to give you the transcripts. I can't say when, maybe a year ago? How much dosh?? Given your recent track record what's important to me is seeing proof that backs up your claims. You generalized before and were proven wrong so what's to say your not generalizing now and just as wrong? Name your price.
big_girl	Share to: #7
Rank： Score：0 Posts：0 From：Australia Register：02/07/2009 10:12 AM	Re：Some current revival thoughts Date Posted：10/04/2010 3:44 AMCopy HTML Hi Guest, I am not into betting actually! This is not the convo I mean. I wasn't there then. I am talking about the ones I was involved in with ian, and also Urchin. However, I will still state that christians will call each other non christians, and of course they all say they are basing it on scripture, and what Jesus says. They all say that. " " I get to assess whether they are Christian or not based on Scripture. Ian" THe Revs actually say the same when they say others are preaching another gospel! Regards, big girl
Tarquin the Magnificent	Share to: #8
Rank：Rookier III Score：2060 Posts：88 From：Unknown Register：05/03/2007 5:24 AM	Re：Some current revival thoughts Date Posted：10/04/2010 7:18 AMCopy HTML Hi Mr Guest If you want to remain within RF, then you must stop asking questions! All 4 groups featured on this website make full use of the mind-numbing concept - if you notice a problem, then you are a problem. The RF coercing of people into marriage (and I know of several who will tell this story) you have quite rightly recognised as unbiblical nonsense. And if they are trying now to change the policy, they will pretend it was always like this. No recognition of sin and error will be made. You may, as I once did, attempt to rationalise and reason away the unbiblical and nonsensical RF rules and "guidelines". But this will not make you free, for all it does is temporarily elevate and improve the condition of the prison. As a "pastor" in England once told my brother: "if anybody is a problem, I get rid of them". Joy!!
Ex_Member	Share to: #9
Rank： Score：0 Posts：0 From：Unknown Register：21/09/2018 12:36 AM	Re：Some current revival thoughts Date Posted：10/04/2010 11:20 AMCopy HTML Reply to is_Aimoo_Guest galien: are pentecostals christians? [14 Sep 09 23:06:46] Didaktikon: Galien. Some are. Ian [14 Sep 09 23:07:29] Didaktikon: Galien. Just as some in the RCI, the RF, the GRC and the CAI are Christians. Ian [14 Sep 09 23:07:49] galien: do you decide which ones are and whichones arent? [14 Sep 09 23:07:43] Didaktikon: Galien. I get to assess whether they are Christian or not based on Scripture. Ian [14 Sep 09 23:08:09] galien: you really are into that assessing thing arent you? [14 Sep 09 23:09:46] Didaktikon: Galien. Yes, given that such is one of my roles as a Christian teacher :glad: Ian [14 Sep 09 23:10:33] From a Christian point of view, that's a pretty scary thing for Ian to say isn't it? He can assess/determine someone's eternal destiny? Wow! That's a big claim, even for Ian. I know from my time in Church that to say this kind of thing was a bit of a 'no-no'. However, if he's talking about the denomination/sect in general and not individuals then it's more commonly accepted to believe this to be possible I s'pose. But the context here seems to be about individuals, not groups. From a non-believer's point of view it seems to be very much an 'us and them' kind of mentality, more hard-line than more moderate, 'mainstream believers' tend to accept.
Uncoolman	Share to: #10
Rank：Poster Venti III Score：10760 Posts：346 From：Unknown Register：05/04/2003 2:38 PM	Re：Some current revival thoughts Date Posted：10/04/2010 11:40 AMCopy HTML Hi all I've had to set the forum so that you need to sign in before you can post. It's too confusing when everyone posts under 'guest' to keep any flow in the discussion, so sign in or join up to post. Easy. Also, when replying to a post, and you use the 'quote and reply' function, please don't quote the entire article, as it just repeats large blocks of text. If you aren't quoting any particular text simply click 'reply'. You'll note that I've been editing some of the posts in this thread, but only the repeated text. Also also, I know in the past that Ian hasn't been very happy with snippets of his chatbox conversations being used in the forum. Taking them out of the context of the string of temporary posts that they were used in could lead to misinterpretation. Also also also, he's not here to defend his views or add to them. IF he's reading this thread, contacts me, and would like his reprinted posts deleted, I will.
MothandRust	Share to: #11
Rank：Forum Oracle Score：41550 Posts：1881 From：Australia Register：27/02/2004 11:21 PM	Re：Some current revival thoughts Date Posted：10/04/2010 12:26 PMCopy HTML Hi Everyone, I am in RF and here are my current thoughts; Howdy Anon. Nice to hear from one on the inside that isn't puffing his/her chest out. I have seen the Lord turn many lives around for the better while in RF, many signs and wonders which have been the handiwork of God himself. In my 17 years in Revival I also saw people who testified to leading what they considered to be better lives... but ofttimes that was interpretive and relative... and then controlled and conditioned. And to play the devil's advocate at your signs and wonders, at risk of offense to you, I put it that 'tongues' are a cheap unimpressive sign and the wonders are found anywhere else, just as wondrously. Lately I have seen some posts which are either pro/against RF without much scripture used. What a church preaches and practices must be measured against the bible, not our own standards. IMO, If the church doesn't practice the bible teaching either due to incorrect doctrine, or has a culture that inhibits correct practice (even if the doctrine is good) the result will be the same - a negative one. Omigosh, if you want to see some scripture heavy posts check out these parts of the forum: Please Consider and The Didakiton Archives. Have a hot coffee and comprehensive dictionary handy. It's amazing what you can find when you speak to someone who actually has formal training in theology and much experience with the history and teaching of Revival doctrine. Feel free and contact one of the main authors of those threads at didaktikon@gmail.com As I have grown to know the Lord, I experience some things about RF which is not so good, and I believe that anything which is not truth will just hinder the truth. You better believe it, when the building is full of so much junk you have to wonder what the base is built of. There's puh-lenty of stuff the Revivals have packed in around their supposed truth and here's some of the fruit of it. 1. There's the End-Time prophesies which had many people scared and convinced. Revival pastors have changed their interpretation of Armegeddon with every Middle Eastern skirmish. The generation after 1917 story has had Jesus return set at 1987 (at the most 1997) to 120 years (2027) as told by a mister (pastor) Brad Smith, and he had the Bible Numerics gemetria mapped out to validify his theories. Pillars of smoke, Russians? Chinese? Sigh at the end is nigh. 2. Remember the pyramids? It seems every modern day faux-Christian cult/sect seems to espouse having the secret wisdom as to why they were built. Honestly, we had regular slide-shows about these things. The Revival churches... keepers of the keys to Egypt. Please. 3. British Israel. Nuff said. OMG... Naive much? Gullible a lot? Completely oblivious to history to the nth degree? Yup. 4. Bible Numerics... a personal favourite of mine, but still. OMG 5. Tithing. I remember people gloating, in their testimonies, that they tithed more than ten percent, because they wanted more money. tithing sucked. Surely only the rich members of the assemblies gave away money they could survive without... I know heaps of charities that could have done better with it though. 6. Forced marriages. DING DING! Yep, I was coerced into marrying at the ripe age of 17. I fooled around with another 17 year old... got found out, and were told to get married by Brad Smith, that year. We weren't allowed to see each other unchaperoned during the brief engagement. We had very unhappy but powerless, and equally brainwashed parents who could do nothing to stop it. 7. Dancing huh? I was pretty happy about the no dancing rule. 8. Ex-communication separation policy... don't get me wrong, I think it's great that they put people 'out' of fellowship, but some people have battered-wife syndrome and like beached whales come clamoring back to the shore. 9. The third person of the Holy Spirit is an it: Or something like that. 10. Alcohol and the forbidding of it. Telling people what they can and can't drink... Serious scripture twisting here. Drunkedness is frowned upon biblically speaking, but not actualy drinking, in moderation. This enforced abstinence is another control method, and deprives people to think for themselves. It's pretty separative and proud too, imo. 11. Fasting - mandatory and compulsory fasts, and the guilt trip for not attending the Saturday session. 12. Tongues and everything to do with ecstatic speech and the supposed miraculous nature of it, and pretty much the whole salvation doctrine that goes with it, but that's a whole other kettle of fish elsewhere on the forum. Instagram and Twitter: @mothpete
Talmid	Share to: #12
Rank：Regular Rookier Score：5980 Posts：293 From：Australia Register：21/04/2008 10:04 PM	Re：Some current revival thoughts Date Posted：10/04/2010 8:23 PMCopy HTML Hi Troy, >>From a Christian point of view, that's a pretty scary thing for Ian to say isn't it? He can assess/determine someone's eternal destiny? Wow! That's a big claim, even for Ian. I'm not going to wade into this morass any further than to give the following perspective for public consideration, since it doesn't seem to have got a guernsey thus far. (Those who don't know Ian should realise that they can always ask him via a civilly worded email.) I don't believe that's what he meant at all. When I read Ian's material in its context at the time, I took it to mean that he was qualified to see how well a person's behaviour lined up with the bible's expectations for someone who claimed to be a Xian. The matter of "determining someone's eternal destiny" remained a matter for God. I'm pretty sure Ian even said so during those weeks. I'm confident it's his theology. This of course is common stuff for Xians who guide other Xians. ... FWIW, I'm sick of hearing "Ian this", "Ian that" The evidence for Mann-made global warming is unequivocal.
big_girl	Share to: #13
Rank： Score：0 Posts：0 From：Australia Register：02/07/2009 10:12 AM	Re：Some current revival thoughts Date Posted：10/04/2010 10:42 PMCopy HTML Just for the record, I am going to defend myself against "Guest" He said this about my posts ""You've said some pretty dumb things in the last couple of days about Christians that didn't pan out when the facts were checked and you've said some pretty dumb things about Ian that probably won't pan out if the facts were checked either." My main two points were that most christians believe that non christians are going to hell. (true) My second point was that I was disappointed the way that christians are apt calling other christians non christians. THis fact is true. (an example of this was cut and pasted by Brolga) The 'two and two' I put together were that they were being 'consigned to hell' Two and two make four here. However, I will try to be more considerate, and not use terms like 'consigned to hell' All I am saying is, that the comments above by "Guest" were aggressive, a put down, and confrontational. We can all disagree, but please do it in a way that genders further conversation and exploration of the issue at hand. Regards, big girl
Ex_Member	Share to: #14
Rank： Score：0 Posts：0 From：Unknown Register：21/09/2018 12:36 AM	Re：Some current revival thoughts Date Posted：11/04/2010 2:27 AMCopy HTML Reply to Talmid I agree with the Moderator that Ian's comments may well be out of context so I'm happy to leave this topic alone too. There will be no public flogging today. :)
Epios	Share to: #15
Rank： Score：0 Posts：0 From：Australia Register：29/05/2010 5:54 PM	Re：Some current revival thoughts Date Posted：30/05/2010 8:42 AMCopy HTML Reply to Blessedbeyondmeasure. Hi Bbm, I wish you well on your return to RF. Things have certainly become more relaxed than they were in past times. Although I cannot see dancing becoming an accepted part of Revival assembly weddings, private weddings could be different, even if the majority of those present were RFers. The reason for not allowing dancing is based on the Revivalist interpretation on 1 Corinthians 7 : 1 "It is good for a man not to touch a woman." As one pastor put it in a talk to youth and parents some years ago "the touching of hands can make you tingle" re-enforcing the reason for the strict adherence to this scripture. May God continue to bless you all beyond measure. Sincerely Epi ps I must add that I do disagree with the doctrine.
Epios	Share to: #16
Rank： Score：0 Posts：0 From：Australia Register：29/05/2010 5:54 PM	Re：Some current revival thoughts Date Posted：30/05/2010 11:42 AMCopy HTML Hi Bbm, The pastor concerned was generalising within the context of his talk, mainly for the benefit of the young ones there. Were you not aware of this scripture being used to outlaw dancing? Yes it is the wrong interpretation, however it was probably used way back in early days of RCI to serve the purpose of forbidding dancing because dancing involved touching and it has conveniently remained in place without question. In all my years as a Revivalist that has always been quoted as the reason for no dancing. God Bless. Epios
Epios	Share to: #17
Rank： Score：0 Posts：0 From：Australia Register：29/05/2010 5:54 PM	Re：Some current revival thoughts Date Posted：31/05/2010 7:09 PMCopy HTML Hi Anon Guest, Your first post (9/4/2010) reads "I am in RF and here are my current thoughts." Your post of yesterday (31/5/2010) reads "Hi all, I started this topic." Later you say "currently I attend a different church" so I take it that during this time you have left RF and now "attend a church which preaches the same doctrine" but which is a church which RFers don't want to you don't want to have a bar of. The tongues doctrine is elitist. Not only do RF look down their noses at "mainline" churches (which preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ) but toward other churches preaching the same doctrine. Even Revival groups from the same family tree are antaganistic toward each other. They come across another group who even preach the same doctrine and never the twain shall meet. Now I might be treading on thin ice here but have you considered that the doctrine just might be flawed? You see Paul preached the Good News about Jesus and the resurrection. Acts 17 : 18. The keeper of the prison in Acts 16 : 29-35 fell down before Paul and Silas and asked "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" And they said "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved and thy house(hold)......." Acts 4 : 12 "Nor is there salvation in any other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." Romans 10 : 9-11 "That if you shall confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead you shall be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation......" Galations 1 is worth re-reading. It is through Jesus' death on the cross that we are saved. He bought our salvation by this supreme act. His life, death and resurrection is the the Good News/the Gospel which the apostles preached and people believed. Believing in Jesus and his saving grace is absolute proof that we have the Holy Spirit. This belief is what Revival Churches reject. Although one can believe with all the heart, soul, mind, strength it's not enough for Revival. A person must prove to a Revival pastor in the tank, line or seekers room that a little stammer in an unknown tongue is present to then be pronounced saved. The Holy Spirit was never the Saviour. Jesus said he would send the Paraclete/Advocate to glorify him, to bear witness of him, to teach and bring all he said to our understanding, to convict of right and wrong. He is comforter, counsellor, supporter, helper, strengthener, encourager, adviser, ally, intercessor, giver of gifts (one of which is tongues) producer of fruit, temple builder, energiser and here's one for TLY, intensifier. All this and more is attributed to the Holy Spirit. Salvation is already ours through Jesus. Pentecost was an amazing outpouring of the Holy Spirit with wind, fire and then the overwhelming of the group in the upper room to speak and preach in languages which could be understood. This was followed in time by the instant outpouring on other groups, those in Samaria, the Gentile group (surprising the other disciples) and then some time later the 12 in Ephesus. There is really not much more said on tongues except when Paul addressed some problems relating to the use/misuse of unknown tongues in the Corinthian Church. What he laid down for the Corinthian Church did not seem to be the blueprint for others as there is no further mention in his other epistles. Just expressing a few of my thoughts. God Bless Epios
Ex_Member	Share to: #18
Rank： Score：0 Posts：0 From：Unknown Register：21/09/2018 12:36 AM	Re：Some current revival thoughts Date Posted：01/06/2010 7:46 PMCopy HTML Hi I read you folk talking about tithing, This is a bit long 7 pages so wont copy it over, but have a look http://www.tithingtruth.com/index.aspx And has a few other things that are pertinent, but basically says that THIS again CANNOT LEGITIMATELY BE ARGUED TO CONSTITUTE A PRE-MOSAIC SPIRITUAL PRINCIPLE AND IT IS NOT RECORDED THAT THIS WAS EVER DONE AGAIN See what you think it may help, it helped me understand the hypocrisy surrounding the grab for money on a Sunday. Some churches I have visited really play up the 10% quite vigorously and were quite shocking about it. Im_Out
Ex_Member	Share to: #19
Rank： Score：0 Posts：0 From：Unknown Register：21/09/2018 12:36 AM	Re：Some current revival thoughts Date Posted：01/06/2010 10:40 PMCopy HTML Thithing was a sort of tax to support the levites who were not allowed to own lands etc they were the public servants of the day not only the priesthood,it was also used to to support the widows and orphans. Malachi 3 is a rebuke to the levites for not paying their share.Thithing is old testament LAW.